Dating Differently: Neurospicy

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In this episode of Kozy with Chloe, Chloe and K open up about the highs, lows, and hilarious moments of their relationship as a neurotypical therapist and a neurodivergent CEO. They dive into K’s journey with ASD—from getting diagnosed, to reshaping his life into one that fully fits his unique needs and strengths. With Chloe’s insights and K’s no-nonsense logic, they tackle what it’s like to navigate love, business, and the world around them in a way that works for them. It’s a real, funny, and heartfelt look at how K made his neurodivergence a true asset in his life. 

Episode Transcript

Chloe (00:05):
Hey guys, before we jump into the first
episode of Cozy with Chloe.
I want to take a fewminutes to introduce myself.
I'm Chloe.
I'm a clinical socialworker, a therapist,
and a dating consultant.
I'm also the owner of Adviceby Chloe, which is a business
that teaches people howto use dating apps, have
successful relationships, andlearn communication skills.

(00:26):
I started my businesswhen I had lost my job.
I was on the brink ofhomelessness, and I made a
post to Reddit offering to pimpout people's dating profiles
for just five dollars an hour.
It instantly went viraland turned into a full
blown business withina couple of days.
Fast forward fouryears and here we are.
So if you're into datingpsychology, human behavior,

(00:50):
you've always wanted toknow how the algorithms on
dating apps work, or if youhave questions about what a
healthy relationship lookslike, or how to identify
an unhealthy one, then youhave found the right place.
You can expect lots of laughs,banter, expert advice, and
relatable stories as we explorewhat it takes to find meaningful

(01:10):
connections in this world.
So I'm really excitedthat you've joined us and
I'm even more excited tointroduce you to my partner
and my boyfriend, Kay.
Kay, do you want tointroduce yourself?

K (01:23):
Hey guys, I'm K.
I'm 40 years old.
I was a professional gamblerand I did quite well at that.
I retired early.
I tried out different things.
I traveled the world for a bit.
I had a lot of time tryingto figure things out.
It was just veryunfulfilling for me.
I read a book onentrepreneurship

(01:44):
through acquisition.
I wanted to Something else.
And so I got intothe healthcare field.
I bought a few facilitiesand over the course of the
last five to seven years,I've been growing and
expanding that business.
And that's a littlebit about me.

Chloe (02:03):
So, before we get into your personal experience
with ASD, I want us to talkabout what it is, because
I feel like a lot of peopledon't quite understand it.
So, ASD is a diagnosis inthe DSM 5, and it stands for
Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Now, when I say that, whatmost people envision is a

(02:23):
spectrum of one through ahundred, and then different
people fall in differentplaces on the spectrum.
So basically, like, howserious is your autism?
And that isn'treally how it works.
It's a lot closer to, like, likea D& D character sheet, right?
Where you have your charismascore and you have your
strength score or yourconstitution, or maybe you

(02:46):
play video games and you areleveling up certain skills.
And then each one of thosethings has their own spectrum.
And those togethermake up your character.
So with autism, you havea specific spectrum for
communication challenges,one for sensory issues, one
for cognitive differences,and they come together

(03:06):
to create who you are.
And so you can have athousand people in a room
with ASD and their ASD willpresent very differently.
And the needs that they havewill be quite different,
and the way that theyexpress themselves and their
challenges are quite different.
So when we talk about thespectrum, we're really
using an incredibly vagueterm that doesn't have a

(03:31):
whole lot of meaning whenit comes to practicality.
So with Kay, I, I want tohear more about what like
your particular, I thinkyou like to call it your,
your flavor of autism.

K (03:45):
Sure.
Yeah, I do.
Um, my flavor of autism forme, the, the two main things
that come to mind are, um, Idon't know, you think I've.
Sensory things.
I think my sensory is just likekind of, I think I, I have a
strong sense of smell, whichI don't think is part of this,

(04:09):
but the, the loud noises andlights, it doesn't cripple
me, but I just don't like it.
Like concerts are where there'stoo many flashing lights and
they're just being really loudand the crowds I can be there,
you know, I don't, I don't.
I guess if you had to put meon, on the, the score rating,
the, the one to 10, probablylike a three or or four on it.

(04:32):
Like, it annoys me.
It drains me, but I can doit with, uh, with smells.
Mm-Hmm.
, uh, . I, I have astrong sense of smell.
I don't think thisis an a SD thing.
Well,

Chloe (04:47):
KI

K (04:47):
mean, well, I, I don't think, okay.
You've, you think it affects me?
I feel like more.
that it does.
I mean, I have astrong sense of smell.
It's a strong palate.
Okay.
I, I, like I, you, yousmell people, right?
Like I, I think, I mean,there's some particularly
smelly people at the gym.
I don't know if that's a sensoryissue or maybe there's just

(05:09):
some smelly people at the gym.
It's also at restaurants, baby.
You shouldn't wear a lotof cologne at a restaurant.
It just, it justruins the experience.

Chloe (05:19):
If we're in a restaurant and someone four tables down has
on strong cologne, K is unableto eat because of the smell.

K (05:29):
It's just false.
First of all, cologneIs not strong or weak.
They have differentclassifications of it, actually,
but it's not about the, thestrength of the cologne.
It's about how muchthey've applied.
If someone

Chloe (05:45):
has applied a tremendous, like a higher
than average amount ofcologne, four tables over.

K (05:52):
So.
I want to make my point here.
Okay, is a hawk autistic?
Because it can, it can seea long distance, right?
It's, I'm not moresense, it's, it's not
that it bothers me more.
I just sense it and you don't.

Chloe (06:09):
It's not that it's the waitress who's overwhelming
you with the mist of cologne.
It is someone.
Any

K (06:17):
proper waitress would never wear, wear cologne.

Chloe (06:20):
Of course, what I mean is that if there is a couple,
four or five tables down whois wearing a lot of cologne,
it will ruin your meal.
You will not be ableto enjoy your food.
It is a ruin the entireexperience for you.
So,

K (06:37):
so is, is the question, is it, am I more sensitive to
it or do you not even smellit because my nose is, has
superpowers stronger than yours?

Chloe (06:51):
I.
I usually smell it, butI either find it vaguely
annoying, or when it's as faraway As they were, it just
doesn't bother me at all.

K (07:03):
You know, when I was in high school and I wrestled,
I could identify whoseheadgear was whose soft,
the smell of the sweat.
Is that autistic?
Yeah.
How was that autistic?
Is autism a superpower now?

Chloe (07:25):
Yeah.
I mean, you, you woulddefinitely like to call it
your superpower and thereare definitely elements
of, of it that like reallyenhance your life, right?
Like you, you have theability to do things and be
successful with things thatI just really struggle with.
Right.

K (07:44):
Truly don't understand this.
So as a chef.
autistic becausethey taste better?

Chloe (07:50):
No, a chef has trained like for a long amount of time
to curate their palate, right?
I mean, it doesn't reallymatter whether it's
autistic or not, right?
But the way that you experiencedifferent sensory things,
the way that you experiencetaste, the way that you

(08:12):
experience smell, the waythat you experience sound.
These are uncommon, right?
Like I don't even noticesometimes or when I do,
I'm like, yeah, I smell it.
It's vaguely annoying, butfor you, it's no exaggeration
that your meal is ruined.
You cannot enjoy it anymore.
You're upset.
It has a negativeimpact on your life.

(08:32):
And that

K (08:34):
Smell affects taste.

Chloe (08:36):
I understand what I'm saying is that your smell is,
the way that it affects youis intense to a level that
it impacts your ability toenjoy going out to eat, right?
And that, that isn't a commontrait in neurotypical people.

(08:58):
It is a very common trait inpeople who are on the spectrum.
Whether it's that you weremore sensitive to it, or that
your nose is stronger, orsome combination of both, it
affects you in the way thatit affects a lot of people
who are also on the spectrum.
It's All

K (09:14):
those autistic chefs and perfume tasters, you
see them all the time.

Chloe (09:19):
Perfume tasters.

K (09:21):
Perfume smell testers.

Chloe (09:26):
You being a perfume tester would just be like
your version of absolute hell.

K (09:35):
You know, what we're going to do is we're going to throw
a wet blanket on you and we'regoing to chant around you in
a circle and call you Normie.

Chloe (09:48):
Why is the blanket wet?
Just like to make me suffer.

K (09:54):
Yeah.
Also, cause you'rea wet blanket.

Chloe (09:59):
You're a wet blanket.
Well, maybe we should talkabout the, the executive
functioning stuff.

K (10:06):
Oh yeah.
I forget about that.
Cause it's not, it's sokind of like hidden in me.
I didn't even realize itwas a thing up until fairly
recently, but that just, it,it affects me tremendously,
especially in my business.
And I had learned toadjust, which I didn't

(10:27):
even know I was doing it.
I basically, I cannotorganize and I it's hard
for me to stay on task.
If I have other stimuli whenI'm trying to organize and
specifically how it happens inthe course of my businesses,
if while I'm working, if Ihave a new tasks come in,

(10:47):
my brain just starts a shortcircuit as I try and organize
them in order of priority and.
I'll just start goingall over the place.
I ended up getting nothing done.
And this isn't how normalpeople operate, but it just
feels so natural to me.
And it, like, it's, it'snot obvious where, you know,
like I'm at the concert andI see the lights are there

(11:09):
and I'm being affected by it.
I find a very, like, itbothers me and it doesn't
bother other people.
This is.
more in internalthought process.

Chloe (11:20):
So that's how it affects your work.
How has ASD affectedyour, your relationships?

K (11:26):
Now that you, you, you mentioned it, I, my exes didn't
really, they didn't really talkabout, we didn't really talk
about feelings that, that much.
I guess, I mean, we,we did occasionally
and obviously it was.
Uh, not very enjoyable forme, but, you know, the issues
I had in, in my previousrelationships, they never

(11:50):
really got very good resultstalking about their feelings
with me, which makes me abad boyfriend, I guess, but.

Chloe (11:58):
You're not a bad boyfriend.

K (12:00):
Not to you.
Uh, but.

Chloe (12:03):
Well, I mean, you also are older now and you learned
how to talk about your feelings.
You're.
Really good at that.
I mean, you weren't, whenwe first started dating,
but that's somethingthat you do quite well.

K (12:15):
Yeah.
Well, you know,that's both learning.
That's me gettingolder and learning.
That's also youteaching me right.
Having healthy communication,understanding what
both of our needs are.
And, you know, in my.
Prior relationships.
It's I'm not laying, if there'sblame on anyone, it'd be on me.
Well, I guess the biggestissue is that I didn't know I

(12:37):
was autistic and that reallykind of opens the door to.
Understanding like why someof these things are happening.
And when I can read about, Hey,this is how autistic people are.
That all of a sudden it waslike a light bulb for me.
Like the, the initial reason whyI started going to therapy who
diagnosed me with this was that,you know, I would have bouts of

(12:58):
depression and I was trying tofigure out why am I depressed?
Like what is causingmy depression?
I started tracking everything.
That's part of why we get alongis we're both data people.
Right.
So I was tracking.
All sorts of data points.
I'm like, okay,what am I eating?
Right.
Is it sunny outside?
Do I have seasonalaffective disorder?

(13:19):
You know, is it a certaintime of the month?
Is it cause I'mworking out or not?
And I could not figure outwhat is causing my depression.
There was nothing seemedto, to, to be like in
like making it happen.
And so.
Um, after I got my diagnosisand, you know, I was working
with my therapist for a whileand like thinking about it, I

(13:40):
learned about masking, right?
Like I, I didn't knowwhat masking was a thing.
I, I didn't like the, I,I knew, I guess I didn't
know I was doing it either.
Knowing that I wasdifferent and trying to act.
Like how other people wereacting or trying to change

(14:01):
my thought process to fittheir thought processes.
The act of doing that is sodraining for me that when I do
it for extended periods of time.
It makes me depressed.
I wouldn't have come tothat conclusion on my own.
And once I realized there wasa term for it and that this is
something that autistic peopledo and that something that I

(14:22):
was doing, then, you know, itjust made it's, you know, I
was, after I would interacta lot with people, I'd be
depressed for a number of days.
And, you know, just, justknowing that just having the
knowledge that, Hey, you'reautistic, Hey, like this is.
This is something that, thatdrains your, your energy

(14:42):
knowing that helps me manage it.
Now, I can, if I, ifI don't want to be
depressed, I can limit my,my social interactions.

Chloe (14:52):
When you haven't talked to people in a while, do you
ever get to a place where youcrave social interactions?

K (15:01):
So, yeah, yes and no, it's a weird juxtaposition
and, and I think I'm kind of,from, from what I've seen,
I'm kind of unique here where.
Other autistic people seemto really crave connections
and interactions with people.
I, I, I don't, I'm, I'm quitehappy just being by myself and

(15:22):
not interacting with people.
However, there is alsosomething weird where I
don't know my own feelings,but if I don't interact with
people for a period of time,even though I think that
I'm fine and I'm happy, Ido start getting depressed.
It's almost as ifthere's something.
Either subconscious orphysical about me that needs

(15:44):
interaction with people.

Chloe (15:46):
Yeah, I definitely noticed that.
Not, not just like throughdata, but like with you, right?
Like after a few days ofyou not leaving the house,
you'll say things like,my belly hurts, right?
Or I have a bellyache.
That's like, I thinkI'm getting sick.
And I'm like, well, baby, doyou think maybe you're sad?
No, I just want pizza.

K (16:09):
So do you think that's me not recognizing
my feelings or that's

Chloe (16:13):
Well, you and I have talked about this a lot,
right, because you, youwere convinced that you have
found a secret code throughASD to where you can bypass
your feelings and that youcan decide not to feel them
and then just not feel them.
But what I see from you isthat you are experiencing these

(16:35):
feelings, but you are either notable to recognize them or don't
feel ready to recognize them.
I'm not sure.
What it is, but I will be ableto see that something is wrong.
Like there have been so manytimes where before I learned
how to better communicate withyou, I would just nag you like,
what's wrong, what's wrong?

(16:56):
Like, tell me what's wrong.
Why won't you talk with me?
Like, I can tell thatsomething is wrong.
You're like, well, I'm fine.
And then two days later,you'd be like, My belly hurts.
I think, I think I mightbe getting depressed
and I would just bite mytongue so hard, right?
Like, Oh, really?

K (17:17):
Well, if only they knew you don't bite your tongue.
You say, I told you I

Chloe (17:23):
bite my tongue so much, but you know, you'll just
start to behave differently.
You are less engaging.
You start to shut down.
I can tell thatsomething is wrong.
And there's usually a a fewdays between where I start
to notice that something isoff and you start to notice
that something is off.
I don't think that you founda way to bypass your feelings.

(17:44):
I think that you either don'trecognize that you're having
them until they become a littlebit more intense or maybe you
articulate them differently,because with you, it's
usually somatic stuff, right?
Like, my stomach hurts.
I have a headache.
I'm really tired.
You know, I'm, I'm hungry allthe time, and I don't know why.

(18:05):
And so he will express thosethings, and then after that
will come the feelings that yourecognize as, as depression.

K (18:12):
Well, my stomach hurts, hurts because I eat.
Bad foods.

Chloe (18:17):
Right, but you will order a pizza at 11 p.
m.
and then a milkshakeand then cookies.
And you only do thatwhen you're sad.

K (18:28):
That's true.

Chloe (18:29):
Well, let's talk about your past relationships because
one of the big things that youstruggled with was not being
able to spend a lot of time withthem before you needed breaks.
And I think that's somethinga lot of people struggle with.
I'd like you to tellus more about that.

K (18:45):
So, you know, you, you start off when you're meeting
someone and it's, you gothrough the rituals, right?
And you it's, everyone's puttingon their best face and you have
to be really careful with whatparts of yourself you show them.
Again, not because it's bad orthe, but this is just what's.
expected.

(19:05):
And if you break these socialnorms, then no one likes it.
And I think this is also partof what's so hard to understand
when you're autistic is that,you know, you're like, well,
this is the truth, right?
Everyone thinks this way.
Everyone hates screaming babies.
Why can't I say I hatethat screaming baby?
Right?
Like everyone'sthinking the same thing.

(19:27):
So why are they lookingat me that way when I
just say it out loud?
Right.
Doesn't make any sense, but it'sjust, that's just how it is.
And so when you're going throughthe initial dates and then
you slowly start to open upyourself more and more to them
and like being your, your realself, right, everyone does this.

(19:48):
This isn't just autistic people.
This is autistic people.
This is neurotypicals as well.
So, but for, for me, it's.
I always had to hide or, um, Icouldn't fully really be myself.
I still had to always bewatching them and making sure

(20:11):
that I didn't do certain things.
I would have to maskat, at different levels
for different people.
As you get into the laterstages of the relationship,
as you get closer, everyoneopens more and more.
But for me, I, there was always.
Parts of myself that I hadto, you know, always be

(20:34):
consciously thinking of anddifferent autistic people,
everyone, everyone's brainfunctions differently.
This is my experience.
Other people's experiencesmay vary when I'm focused.
When my attention is onsomething, I mask pretty well.
I can read people to a decentextent, but as I get tired, as

(20:54):
I get stressed, as my focus.
If I'm not paying attention,if I'm working and someone
talks to me, my, my maskingdeteriorates significantly.
And it's a conscious effortfor me while for a neuro
typical person, this isjust something that they do.
It's like walking, walkingand breathing for me.

(21:16):
I have to think about.
Every breath that I take,I have to be looking at her
and seeing, Hey, what is heremotional state right now?
And that's, that's a thoughtthat goes into my head.
I have to focus on it.
If I'm not focused on it,potentially stuff happens
like they get angry.
Right.
Or they get upset.
And if I'm not payingattention, that causes problems.

(21:36):
I'm never allowed to fullyrelax, but with, with us,
it's never been like that.
I'm, I'm comfortable doing.
And being myself, the, whatI feel the core of myself,
I can be true to that.

Chloe (21:55):
It makes me really, really happy that you're
able to be yourself with me.
And I, I try reallyhard to understand.
Your perspective and your sideof things to make sure that
I'm not Kind of forcing youinto a corner where you have
to mask right because I don'tI don't want a relationship
to ever feel like a chore.

(22:15):
I have an idea of how we gotto this place But i'd i'd
like to hear your thoughtslike what's different.
Was it us?
Was it you?
Was it me?
Was it some combinationof all three?

K (22:29):
I want to hear your thoughts on this too, but
I mean I was comfortablewith you You From day one.

Chloe (22:35):
I felt really comfortable with you, but that first
year was really hard Actuallybefore we talk about the
first year, we should probablytell people how we met right?
Do you want me to do itor do you want to do it?

K (22:48):
No, you go ahead.
You do a better job

Chloe (22:50):
Kay and I met at a mental health conference, and
we met at this shady littlebuffet table that had like
this oyster bar, and I've neverbeen a seafood person, I never
liked seafood, I had oystersonce when I was a kid, I really

(23:10):
wanted to try one again to seeif I liked them as an adult.
And there was only oneleft and it looked a
little bit suspicious.

K (23:20):
It was fully submerged under melted ice, underwater.

Chloe (23:26):
You really didn't need to call me out like that, but
it was, it was pretty gross.
And you, you walked up nextto me and I looked at you.
And I was like, do you, doyou think I should go for it?
Do you think I should eat it?
And you were like, uh, no,you, you should not eat that.
And I said, I'm goingto, and I ate it.

(23:47):
And while I deeply regrettedthat later, we just kind of
started chatting and we ended upat the dessert table and we're
just trying different dessertsand rating them, and it was just
like a 10 minute conversation.
But I rememberreally liking you.
I had to go to a workshop,and I wasn't really sure if

(24:09):
you were interested in me,or what was going to happen.
And then you gave mea very smooth line.
Do you remember what it was?

K (24:18):
Who's the autistic one?
You weren't sure if Iwas interested in you?
I remember.
That was very charming.
So smooth.
I said, so if I wanted todiscuss the systemic issues
with mental health in America,how would I get ahold of you?

Chloe (24:38):
And I gave him my phone number and You
called and we actuallytalked about these systemic
issues with mental healthcare in the United States.
And you listened tome go on a rant about
it for like two hours.
And then we talked again andagain and again and there was

(25:01):
just like this little click.
Like something just workedand that started what I call
the year of misunderstandingswhere we really liked
each other but constantlymisunderstood each other.
I go into more detail onthis on a blog I wrote called
How I Found Love on theSpectrum which is actually
why I decided to start thispodcast because we got so

(25:24):
many messages from people whoreally related to but our first
year was really, really hard.
We really misunderstood.
What the other person wanted,so I was convinced that
you had no interest in theserious relationship with me.
Yeah,

K (25:40):
why I, you know, I can see how that could happen when I'm
calling you every week and dayand asking you to come see me.
I can see how youcould be confused.
Well, you could be like,

Chloe (25:53):
Hey, I have the poker tournament and, and the city.
Do you, do you want tofly out and be with me?
It sounded like you were askingme to be a prostitute for you.

K (26:03):
And

Chloe (26:07):
so I was like, I am, I think I actually told
you I'm not interested inbeing your hooker, which you
thought was very funny, butI had just gotten out of a
really, Uh, difficult breakup.
I had a lot ofturmoil in my family.
I was just not in a good place.
And my primary goal was tonot get my heart broken.

(26:29):
And I liked you.
I liked you a lot.
And I liked you instantly.
And I was very, very scaredof getting hurt because you
lived across the country.
Your lifestyle was completelydifferent than mine.
And I was like,best case scenario.
I'm going to have to give upmy whole life to move across
the world to be with this man.

(26:50):
And then we're goingto break up in a year.
And that's just notsomething I'm willing to do.
And I tried to talkto you about it.
And I would say like, Hey,what, what are we doing?
Because you live, In anotherstate, and I live here
and I don't wanna moveand you don't wanna move.

(27:10):
So what, what are we doing?
Like, what is gonna happen?
And your response would belike, let's just figure it out.
Let's have aweekend in New York.
I'll get us a hotel.
like, this man is not serious

K (27:25):
about me.
one, one.
That's not what I said.
Uh, and two, I don't know ifthis is a, a neurotypical thing
or, or, or a Chloe thing, butyou know, you're like, okay.
Uh, I don't know if, youknow, how are we going
to name our children?
Like, this isn't going to,it's like, okay, can we, can
we go on a first date first?
And then, then maybe decide?

Chloe (27:47):
I said nothing about children at that point.
Okay.
It was, what isthis going to be?
Right?
Like, what are yourintentions with me?

K (27:55):
What if I'm really sick?
And you have a reallyimportant business meeting.
Would you spend thenight with me or would
you go stay in a hotel?
What would you do?

Chloe (28:06):
You started that conversation, K.
You did.
You did.
I, I was sick.
Actually, I think I had COVID.
And you were like, Hey, soif you were here and you had
COVID, You would be okay ifI just left and stayed at a
hotel while you're sick, right?

K (28:25):
I don't think that's what happened.
It

Chloe (28:27):
was very similar and I was very offended and
you're like you want me toget sick with you and I was
like no But I want you towant to get sick with me.

K (28:37):
Yeah, so you wanted me to say I would get sick with you,
but not actually make me do it.

Chloe (28:45):
Yeah, I would have never let you do it.
It's like, I would havemade you leave, but I wanted
to have to make you do it.
I wanted you to insistthat you take care of me.
That

K (28:55):
makes a lot of sense.

Chloe (28:56):
I agree, it does.
Or, if we were goingcamping and there was a
bear, would you save me?
And, no.

K (29:05):
Attempt to save you from a grizzly bear that
had you in its jaws.
I was actively mauling you.
With my bear hands.

Chloe (29:15):
I, no, I said, what if you had a gun?
And you said a gun won't doanything with a grizzly bear.

K (29:20):
Yeah, that's true.

Chloe (29:24):
And then you were confused about why I didn't
want to go camping anymore.
The truth is, if you've beendating a guy for three months,
and you guys go camping, anda grizzly bear shows up, he
is not going to die for you.
I, I feel strongly that

K (29:38):
like, Not even, you want me just to die with you?

Chloe (29:40):
Sure.
He won't die trying to saveyou and you both die together.
Like 95 percent of people,they're going to escape as
you're being eaten, right?
But people, women, especially,we want you to pretend
that you would save us.
That is what we want.
I wanted you to pretend.
I wanted you to be like,I would never leave you.

K (30:00):
You want me to pretend.
And then you wanted to say,no, you should leave me.

Chloe (30:04):
Yeah, and then I wanted you to argue.
Never.
You couldn't make me leave you.
I would stay with you.
And it's all a lie.
And it's all a lie.
That is what I wanted.
And that's what mostneurotypical women want.
So what we've

K (30:16):
learned today is that neurotypicals are liars.

Chloe (30:20):
Yes, that's literally, I mean, we follow these
invisible social rules, right,that a lot of neurodivergent
people just don't follow.
Don't.
And so what's interesting is,and something that I've really
valued about our relationship,is the things that most
people perceive about youthat they think are incredibly
rude, I just really lovebecause you don't lie to me.

(30:42):
You really don't.
Even when we're talking aboutsomething and you know, that
what you were going to saynext is going to upset me.
I watch you inwardly cringe.
I watch you prepare to upset me,and then you tell me the truth.
Oftentimes I don't likethe honesty, but I've
learned to appreciate thefact that everyone feels

(31:06):
exactly the same way.
They just lie.
You would talk to me about itfor an hour, and I would just
be suffering through it becauseI just, like, I'm proud of you,
and I'm really excited for you,but the intricacies of how real
estate law works is just not aninterest of mine, and I would
pretend to be interested becausethat's what I was taught you're

(31:27):
supposed to do, and then afteryou finish talking, I will
start going on about criticalrole or about something that
I care about that you're notinterested in and I can see
you not paying attention to me,and I would get so hurt and so
angry and the hypocrisy of mebeing angry that you didn't do

(31:47):
a good enough job of pretendingto be interested in what I had
to say when I had just finishedpretending to be interested
in what you had to say.
Really.
struck me when Irealized it, right?
Because it's, it's, it's thisreally insane expectation,
but because it just feelsnormal, but it's, it's not.

K (32:08):
Yeah.
I mean, it's much betterwhen it's done my way, where
I don't know you're notlistening and I don't care.
I just want to talk.

Chloe (32:17):
You do do that.
Like sometimes he will eventell me, I know you don't
care about this, but Ineed to tell you about it.
And then I will listenand, and I won't care and
I'll barely pay attention.
And he's just perfectlyhappy with that.
You can be talking to meabout something and I'm
allowed to say, Hey, I cangive you five more minutes.

(32:40):
And usually you're justcompletely okay with that.
You aren't insulted, you don'tpout, you like understand that
I'm not that interested andyou don't equate that to how
much I love you, like it'staken me some time to reach a
place where I don't feel hurtwhen you aren't interested
in what I have to say, butit's really freeing, right?

(33:00):
To, to just be ableto be like, Hey.
I'm bored by this conversationand you're just, you're just
allowed to say it out loud.
It feels, it feels likewalking into a grocery
store and like throwingproduce across the store.
It feels like this crazything that like you're not
supposed to be allowed to do.

K (33:18):
Yeah, it's nice.
I feel comfortable with you.
I feel happy with you.
We have a lot in common andnot everything in common.
There are a lot of thingsthat we don't share, but
I feel like the importantaspects, you know, the parts
that make a person, a person,you know, our, our spirits
are identical in that sense.
And I feel like I can be myself.

(33:40):
With you and that doesn't meanthat you know, I say whatever
I want and do whatever Iwant all the time there are
definitely things that i'vehad to adjust and change about
myself, but those things thatI Adjusted are not things
that are important about me.
They're not they're notcore to to who I am I just
never get sick of you.
I always just want More andmore now, however long it's

(34:03):
been three years, four years,I still, I'm never tired of it.
I never want tobe away from you.
So I think parts of what you'resaying here are misleading.
Not, not thatyou're just overall.
I think the picture thatwe're presenting is that, you
know, your, This wonderfulwoman who was accepted an
autistic man, which it's true.

(34:25):
You are, you are awonderful woman who has
accepted autistic man.
This isn't that I found awoman who accepts me as I am.
You know, it's, it's both right.

Chloe (34:36):
Well, you're also not baggage.
I have to lug around,like, I don't consider
myself the superhero

K (34:44):
that I'm

Chloe (34:44):
with you.
Like you were, youwere wonderful.

K (34:47):
What I want to talk about is what other.
What the autisticpeople listening, what
they can do, right?
Because right now, what I thinkit portraying is you got to find
a woman who just accepts you.

Chloe (34:58):
Yeah.
Right.

K (34:59):
Which I don't think is very good advice.

Chloe (35:01):
No, it's, it's, I think it's a few things, right?
I think it's you triedreally hard and I, and also
I, I met you in the middle.
We're really happy now, butthat isn't how we started.
So let's, let's talk abouthow we got there because I,
it was largely just, we, weworked really hard, right?

(35:21):
Like I worked to understand youand you worked to understand me.

K (35:25):
Yeah, after we would argue, once we had both calmed down,
we would talk about it and justkind of workshop it, right?
Like what went wrong?
What can we do differently?
And slowly over time, weadjusted and got better and
better and it's not perfectstill, but it's in a good

(35:47):
spot and a lot better thanit was at the beginning.

Chloe (35:51):
Yeah, so for us, what worked is.
K needs breaks.

K (35:56):
For me, I have an emotional battery.
I have a social battery.
And there's onlyso much I can take.
And at a certain point, I Ijust can't take it anymore.
It doesn't matter what it is.
I just cannot take it anymore.
Cannot talk about emotions.
I cannot listen to emotions.

(36:19):
And once I reached that point,I need some time to recover.
We, we made a rule, not reallyeven a rule, but we just
communicate an agreement.
We just communicate whereif I say, Hey, I need a
break, we take a break.
And we, I, we, we try and.
Condense our, our argumentsas much as we can.

Chloe (36:39):
And then we created guidelines for the
break because our brainsfunction very differently.
So he needs breaks, but whatI need is to know when that
break is going to end, right?
Because if he says I needa break in two days, go by.
And we don't bring it up again.
I feel really hurt.
So the agreement is thatwhen he takes a break, it

(36:59):
is his responsibility tobring it back up and that he
will do it within 48 hours.
And I think that's beenvery good for us because
it used to be that he wouldhit his limit and he would
say he wanted a break.
And I interpreted that as himtrying to end the conversation.
And so then I would get.
really hurt and reallyfrustrated because it felt

(37:22):
like he, he just didn't wantto talk about it anymore.
Which, I mean, he would alsosay, I don't want to talk
about this anymore, right?
I can't do this anymore.
You have to stop.
I'm very

K (37:32):
happy burying feelings.
That's my favoriteplace where they go.

Chloe (37:35):
And the argument would not be resolved,
even close to resolved.
And then two days later,it'd be like, hey, You never
brought this back up again.
And that, that reallyhurts my feelings.
And you would be like, Oh,I thought we were finished.
Like, what do you meanyou were finished?
Like, we neverresolved anything.
You're like, Oh, well, youstopped talking about it.
So I thought, Ithought it was fine.

(37:56):
We had to learn howto work together.
I both needed to accept it.
When he was direct with me,like, if, if a neurotypical
man is angry and you're havingan argument, and he, like,
frustratingly and angrilysays, what do you want from me?
He is not actuallyasking you for anything.
what you want from him.

(38:18):
He is expressing frustration.
He's usually trying toavoid accountability.
It is something thatpeople say when they're
angry to kind of place ablame on the other person.
When Kay says, whatdo you want from me?
He is actually askingwhat exactly do I want?
And the first time Irealized that it was just
like a light bulb went offbecause I told him and he.

(38:44):
just startednegotiating with me.
He's like, well, I don'tknow if I can do that,
but what if we do this?
We actually negotiated ina way that I've just never
done in my life, where Itold him what I wanted.
And then he told me whathe was willing to give.
And then we worked out togetherhow that was going to work.

K (39:00):
Yeah.
Somehow being very direct andsaying what I mean is more
confusing to you than lying.
Well,

Chloe (39:09):
it's because No, no one else does it this way, right?
It's, it's so, it's so rare.
But then at the same time, Ineeded to be direct with him.
I needed to, to tell him, Hey,you are hurting my feelings
right now, and I need you torephrase what you're saying.
The way that I would expressthat he was hurting my
feelings is I would start tocry or I would storm away.

(39:32):
There are just so manycomplexities and how
we communicate, right?
So.
I had to learn how to say,I want you to talk to me
about this in a sincere way,and I don't want you to feel
like you were only havingthis conversation with me
because I am forcing you to.
I want to feel like my feelingsabout this matter to you.
That is what I need from you.

(39:54):
And.
It's just incredibly effectivebecause almost always his
answer is they do matter.
I'm just angry or I'mjust frustrated or I'm
just hurt and I can'tcontrol my tone right now.
So I sound frustrated becauseI am frustrated, but it
doesn't mean that I don'tcare about your feelings.
And.
It was just really, reallygood for us to learn how to

(40:16):
have those conversations.
Another thing that wasreally helpful for me
is not assuming intent.

K (40:24):
I would always tell you my words.

Chloe (40:27):
Yes.
He would say, listen exactlyto what I am saying to
you, because it's just notsomething that nerves me.
Typical people do.
There are layers toconversations, right?
There's so muchbetween the lines.
And with K, there just isn't.
It is very direct.
So, for example, if it'ssomething small, like, uh, which

(40:48):
movie are we going to watch?
I'll say, I want to watch this.
And he will be like,well, it's not my first
pick, but yeah, it's fine.
A lot of women would respondand feel guilty or like, well,
what do you want to watchor let me accommodate that.
And then eventually youstart to feel resentful.

(41:10):
We always just dowhat he wants to do.
When in reality, when I watchwhat he wants to watch, it's
not my favorite thing either.
I do it because I lovehim and he's just doing
exactly the same thing.
He's just expressingit very, very directly.
So learning how to becomfortable with him admitting
that he doesn't like somethingwas really hard for me.

(41:31):
Like hearing him say, I don'twant to do this, but I will just
made me profoundly uncomfortablefor a very long time.

K (41:39):
Communication is the most important part of it, right?
We, we tell each other,As, as directly as we can,
Hey, here's the issue.
Here's how I'm feeling.
What can we do to fix it?
And then we just starttrying to figure it out
and we failed a lot, right?
We, we tried out differentmethods until, you know, over

(42:00):
time it got better and betterand better and better as we
figured out what works forus and what doesn't work and
we continue to improve on it.
I think that's just good advicefor any part of anyone's life.

Chloe (42:12):
Yeah, I agree.
I think we're reallygood at like focusing
on this is the problem.
How do we work as ateam to solve it, right?
And sometimes theproblem is your behavior.
And sometimes it's my behavior.
Even if we don't immediatelyget there, we pretty quickly
get to the place of this isa problem for us as a couple.
How do we worktogether to fix it?
So you're talking alot about masking.

(42:32):
Can you explain tous what masking is?

K (42:36):
For me, masking means it's pretending to do
certain social behaviors.
Really, it's my overall tone,and inflections, and saying
certain things, and, you know,really controlling my emotions.
Body movements and emotionsin a unnatural way for me

(43:01):
to mask as if I am a normie.
Normally, I am very monotone.
Unless I have some sortof extreme emotion,
I'm fairly monotone.
You can pick up on my Smallinflections now, but the
normal people who don't knowme, it just sounds very flat.

(43:24):
So in the flatness to themsounds like annoyance.
So when I'm masking, Ihave to be sure to throw
in inflection and overexaggerate for me to appear
like I am a normal person.
I have to, specificallymake sure that I force

(43:45):
inflection in my voice.

Chloe (43:47):
When we first started dating, I thought you sounded
really monotone, right?
Like I had a hard timeknowing when you were serious
or when you were joking.
And I think a lot of ourmisunderstandings were because
I thought You were serious.
Do you remember when you had meconvinced for like four months
that you had a feeder kink?

K (44:07):
Yeah.
You're just not that perceptive.

Chloe (44:11):
I had like serious conversations with my friends.
I felt like, I don'tknow if I can do this.
He, he has a feederkink because I would ask
you is, is this real?
Do you actuallyhave a feeder kink?
And you would say,

K (44:26):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Yeah.

Chloe (44:30):
And I, like, I was so into you that I was
like, I think I could befed in like a sexual way.
That's, that's fine.
I guess it dependson what it is.
And then you keptescalating it to like
weirder and weirder foods.
And then I remember one day Itold you, like, I, I, I just
don't know if I can do this,like, like this is just not a

(44:52):
kink I share and some of thethings that you want to do
I feel kind of uncomfortablewith and you're like, I
don't have a feeder kink.
It was a joke and it waslike, I've experienced six
months of turmoil trying tomake myself okay with your
feeder kink and it's not real.

K (45:09):
You never made it clear that you thought it was real.

Chloe (45:12):
What?
Yes, I, I wouldask you directly.
Is it real?
And you would say,

K (45:19):
wait, wait, wait, I think I was, I was playing out a
scene from Seinfeld about, Oh

Chloe (45:26):
my God, I remember, I remember you told me, Oh
my gosh, I remember when Iconfronted you and you told
me you were playing out ascene from Seinfeld and I
looked it up and saw that.
Oh my gosh.
I remember this.
What is wrong with you?
There's nothing wrong with me.
But it's really interestingbecause now people will come

(45:52):
to me like hey, is he angryor is, is, is he upset or,
or did I do something wrong?
And I'm like, oh no,that's just how he sounds.
This is totally normal.
And it's actually reallydifficult for me now.
To hear the monotone because Ihear so much personality and in
your voice, I mean, it just tooka little bit of time to get used

(46:15):
to, but what I wanted to askyou about with masking is it's
pretty controversial, right?
And that as we're getting moreand more and more research about
neurodivergence, we're seeinghow detrimental masking can be
like, like, Um, It is associatedwith, like, really intensive

(46:35):
burnout, which I have personallywitnessed you experience.
It increases rates ofdepression, of anxiety,
it can cause PTSD, itincreases suicidal ideation.
Like, it has reallynegative effects on people.
If you feel like you have topretend to be someone else

(46:55):
in order to be accepted, ofcourse, that's going to have an
effect on your mental health.
And I, I really wanted tohear what you think about it.

K (47:05):
So this is what originally led to me being diagnosed was
I would go through depression.
You know, I thought maybe itwas seasonal affective disorder.
So I start going to the therapyand I'm like, Hey, I can't
figure out what's wrong with me.
I think it's just somethingbiological, you know, a few days
a year, a few days, every fewmonths, I just start getting
really depressed out of nowhere.

(47:26):
And I think I went through one,two, three, it was a fourth
therapist who diagnosed me.
I went to three therapists.
I know you think this iscrazy, Chloe, that, but three
of them had no idea I wasautistic, or at least if they
did, they didn't tell me,which I feel like they would.
And the fourth one justimmediately diagnosed me.

(47:49):
And it all just kindof made sense that
any time I would mask.
For periods of time, dependingon how long it was, that
would reflect in periodsof depression afterwards.
So let's say I go to aconference, it's two days of
just socializing all day long.
I'll be depressed for three,four days afterwards, like

(48:10):
difficult to get out of bed.
If I go out for a night, Itmight, might just drain me
a little bit the next day.
So it was just a very, veryclear, direct correlation
between amount of time that Iwas masking slash socializing
and then needed recovery timeslash had depressive symptoms.

(48:32):
effects afterwards.

Chloe (48:34):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Have you balanced that?
Like how, how have you founda way to have the life that
you want to have and notbe burnt out all the time?

K (48:47):
Well, this is why with my previous relationship, I tried
to come up with some sort oflike, okay, you know, if we
do this, I had this much timealone and tried to make it
work like that, which honestlywasn't fair to either of us.
It's, this isn't somethingthat you can power through.

(49:10):
Maybe when I was younger,at this point in my life,
you just have to manage it.
And the way I think about itis it's a battery and you have
to be very smart about whenAnd how you deploy your charge,
because when I use too muchof it, I know I'm going to be

(49:31):
depressed and out of commissionfor a couple of days or, or
more depending on what it is.
And the only things I have foundto help is well, one, like I
said, is Managing and knowingthat this will happen if I have
to do this two is when I'm inthe recovery period Just giving
myself that time to recover.

Chloe (49:54):
Yeah, that makes sense What are your friendships
like right because you youhave some friends who are
on the spectrum And some ofyour closest friends are not

K (50:04):
Yeah, so most of my friends I would say I met through
shared interests and myinterests are You Very nerdy.
And so naturally.
The same type of people wholike these interests have
similar personality traits.
So a lot of people in thosecircles are varying degrees

(50:25):
of autistic, which works out.
So I have a lot of friends.
And, you know, we justaccept each other's quirks.
Cause almost everyone, everyonehas, has something right.
Then with, with theneurotypical people, I
don't know, it's weird.
I get along best withthe very bleeding heart

(50:48):
and social worker type.
You might have more insightinto it and theorize about it
probably because they're justvery understanding of any Social
faux pas and can they can kindof see I am actually a nice
guy despite saying or doingsome rude things sometimes.

Chloe (51:07):
Yeah, I mean, they aren't rude.
For me, at least,there was no despite.
It was just trying tounderstand what was happening.
Because as soon as youunderstand that you aren't
being rude intentionally,then The vibe changes, right?
Like, the, the reason itwas difficult for me in
the beginning is there arejust so many bad people

(51:30):
in the world, right?
And it was really hard toknow, is he gaslighting me?
Is, is he doing this on purpose?
Is he manipulating me?
Is he negging me?
Like, what?
What is he doing right now?
And it's, it's just difficult toknow because I, I'm sure a lot
of people have had experiencewith just really manipulative

(51:51):
humans who hurt you andpretend like it's an accident.
But as soon as I realized,oh, this, this is intentional,
this is miscommunication.
All of that went away and itwas just, how do we communicate?
How, how do Iunderstand him better?
How do I help himunderstand me better?
How can we have a conversationthat's not going to lead

(52:13):
to me feeling hurt and himfeeling unfairly judged.

K (52:18):
Yeah.
And part of that is errorsin, in masking, right?
Even despite the fact that I'm.
Very good at masking.
I frequently make mistakes,especially when it comes to
you and social interactions,and there's groups of people
that makes it a lot more,more difficult trying to learn

(52:38):
it through a set of rulesis, is really, really tough.
And we, how many times havewe had the conversation where
I'm like, okay, so you want meto say this in this situation,
if you're having a bad day.
Then I can't makethis joke anymore,

Chloe (52:52):
but, but

K (52:54):
if you're having a bad day and I've been nice to you
enough earlier in the day,then I can make the bad joke.
Right?
Like it's, it's justreally, that's how I
built it out in my head.
I have, I have a set of rulesthat I go by and if it's ever
too complicated, I just, I,I, I just don't mess with it.

(53:15):
I just make kind of like a, uh,an overriding rule, which is
like, never make the bad joke.

Chloe (53:20):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I thinkthat's what saved us, right?
Like you're in my ability tohave those conversations, right?
Because whenever we firststarted dating my reaction,
when you would say somethingthat was hurtful was very, I
had a very emotional reaction.
So how did it, evolve withyour neurotypical friends?

K (53:40):
You know, I don't even know if I've told most of them,
maybe only some of my closestand not because I'm trying to
hide it or I don't want to.
It's just, it hasn't come up.
And the thing is,these, these people have
known me for so long.
So it's like high

Chloe (53:54):
school, right?

K (53:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That it would just bea label at this point.
They know my quirks, right?
Like, like they know,they know how I am.
They'll, Oh, they might belike, Oh, Yeah, obviously
you're artistic or itmakes sense because you
you do all these things.
So yeah, I think i've hadlike a couple conversations,
but no one's gonna be like,oh my god, right there.
It's just

Chloe (54:17):
Yeah, i've noticed with a lot of my clients who
were on the spectrum likeEven though I am a dating
consultant, we usually end upkind of going back around to,
I struggle making friends too.
I really struggle withhow to approach them.
I feel like I have to mask, andthen I start to feel like they
don't really know who I am.
Like I'm just pretendingto be someone.

(54:39):
Like I have clientswho would spend hours
researching hobbies so thatthey could share hobbies.
With with people in order tomake friends, which, you know,
just just really broke my heart.
That's not sustainable, right?
Yeah.
So how do you do it in a waywhere you can be yourself?
And you can havefulfilling friendships?
Does masking havea role in that?

K (55:01):
I have a lot to say about this.
So feel free to like chime in.
I think the most importantthing is to Be as true
to yourself as you can interms of overall things you
want to do and how you are.
When I think of masking, it'snot changing my core being.
I'm still true to myself.

(55:21):
I'm not doing anything whereI'm misrepresenting myself.
So I guess sometimes, but,but, but it's very small.
Most of the time when I'masking, it's, it's just
like going through rituals.
I find annoying when yousee someone like, Hey,
how was your weekend?
Oh, good.
How was yours?
Do anything fun?
Everyone knows no one cares,but you have to say them.

(55:44):
So I think pretending to dothese things and going along
with it and pitching my voiceto show interest, I don't think
that's, that's changing the coreof who I am, all that that's
doing is I think it was justlike a prerequisite to get.
Through to the things thatI want to do, but going
back to the masking andfriends and whatnot, I've

(56:07):
made my life to have it be.
Where I'm doing the things thatI enjoy as much as possible.
Like the interests Ihave, the things I, I read
the way I spend my time.
Those are all thingsthat make me happy and
that I enjoy, right?
I'm not doing, I don'tlike sports, right?
So when people go to watchfootball or whatever,

(56:30):
or basketball and like,Hey, do you want to come?
I say, no, I don'tlike basketball.
And I feel like probably a lotof people, they want to fit in.
So they go pretendthat they do it.
So if you're trying to fityourself in with that, that
crowd, that group of people,you're not going to be happy.

(56:50):
So I've found people who.
Like the same things that Ilike and we get along because
it happens that the peoplewho like the same things
I like have share similarpersonality traits with me.

Chloe (57:04):
How do you have fulfilling relationships that
don't burn you out and thataren't unhealthy for you?
Yeah,

K (57:11):
you've seen, you enjoy my text messages
because I'm just very.
I'm very direct with them.
If they want to do somethingand, and hang out and do
all this stuff, I will justvery directly tell them
like, Hey, I'll hang outwith you for four hours.
And after four hours, I'mgoing home or, you know,

(57:33):
we can hang out for, forone night this week, and
then after that one night.
That's it.
So pick what, whatnight you want.
Yeah.
And I

Chloe (57:42):
love that about you because you do it with
such confidence that peopledon't question it, right?
Like you are just a verydirect and probably the first
time that you do it, theyare shocked, but then it just
becomes a part of who you are.
I'm always just soimpressed with how.
Direct you're able to bebecause I would have worried
myself sick that I was goingto hurt their feelings, right?

(58:03):
Like I worry far too muchabout how I'm going to be
perceived and what people aregoing to think about me and
you're just completely direct.
And then it's, it's reallyhelped me be, I think, a more
confident person because Ialso see the reaction to you.
You tell them what yourboundaries are and if
they want to be in yourlife, they respect them.

(58:24):
And then that's just theend of the conversation,

K (58:26):
right?
Because.
And, and I feel it's veryreasonable too, because I don't
think anyone's feelings shouldbe hurt because I straight up
tell them, you know, it's not,I want to hang out with you.
Right.
I enjoy hanging out withyou, but I just need
this time to myself.
So here's what,what works for me.
And I want to spend it with you.
And, you know, it I actuallydon't think I've ever had

(58:47):
a bad reaction, or maybe Imissed the cues on it, but
it works really well for me.

Chloe (58:53):
I've never seen it go poorly for you at all.
And there are some timeswhen, like, you will
have a conversation, andit's usually for work.
Like, sometimes you'll askfor my help with social work
things, where you'll have aconversation and ask how it
went, and then we'll talkabout, you know, Well, I noticed
that maybe you weren't able tosee, but when it comes to you
just being really direct withyour friends or people in your

(59:15):
life, I have never seen a badreaction and it's genuinely
helped me to a point that thepeople in my life have noticed.
And I, like, I've been told.
That I, it like, it means so,I feel like emotional about it.
Like you have made mylife so much better.
I have created boundarieswith toxic people in my life.

(59:36):
It's so freeing.
Like, I feel likeyou have helped me.
I wouldn't even say just like abetter person, but I'm a happier
person with you because I nolonger stress out with you.
I love you.
I mean, if you imagine whoI was when I first started
dating and who I am now, therelationships I would have, I

(59:57):
would come to crying and youwould just be like, they're
treating you really poorly.
Why are you worriedabout how to please them?
And I reached a placewhere I genuinely did.
Just don't care if theycan't respect my boundaries
and they can't be my life.
And that is something you havetaught me that has had the
biggest impact on my life,but I think anything has given

(01:00:19):
me and my entire adulthood.

K (01:00:22):
People think it's selfish, but it's not
selfish to have boundaries.
I know what I need to be happy.
Right.
And it's not even, andsometimes, you know, I'll,
I'll bend my, my boundaries.
I'll do something I don't wantto do to make someone else
happier, but usually it's, it'sfamily, you know, like, like

(01:00:42):
I'll, I'll suffer a little bit.
Most of the time you setwhat's reasonable and.
Even with your friends,it's a relationship, right?
You give and you take and itworks out when, when everyone
has, is, is good hearted,is, has good intentions.

Chloe (01:00:58):
And you can set boundaries in a nice way, right?
Like there may be people who,no matter how you articulate
it, they perceive you setting aboundary as you insulting them.
But those people are notcapable of being in a healthy
relationship with you.

K (01:01:13):
The other thing I think is, actually you saw this come
up recently, where, you know,sometimes either my, my masking
isn't good enough, or they're,they're not picking up what
I'm putting down, and they'renot getting my signals to stop
talking about this, or I don'twant to talk about this anymore.
It comes up a lotwith, with my parents.

(01:01:34):
You know, I juststarted being very.
Direct with them.
And I do this in allthe relationships if I
need to write you, youstart a slow escalation.
So with my parents specifically,they were asking me questions
about something that Ididn't want to talk about.
And I started just giving likevery short and what I thought
were like cold responses andthey just were not listening.

(01:01:55):
They, they justkept asking, asking.
And after like the second orthird question, I just said
to them very directly, Hey,when you guys asked me about
this, It stresses me out.
I don't want to talk about it.
Can you stop asking me?
And they stopped.

Chloe (01:02:13):
And, and they still loved you at the
end of that phone call.
Right.
And they, and they stillcalled you the next day and
they still wanted to supportyou and be there for you.
And it's, it's, it's just, youknow, it feels very obvious
that people who love you aren'tgoing to stop loving you.
If you say, Hey, I don'tlike it when you do this.
But I think for a lot of people,especially women, it's just

(01:02:36):
so pounded into us that if youdon't comply with what someone
wants, then they're not goingto want you around anymore.
And it's just crazy.
It's crazy.
I wasted so much of my life,like bending myself over
backwards for people whodidn't need me to do that.

(01:02:56):
Right.
And the people who didn'tneed me to do that, why did
I let them stay in my life?
Right.

K (01:03:04):
I don't know.
I

Chloe (01:03:05):
know since I've been with you.
I think it's fair to say thatthe people who I communicated
with every day has droppedby almost half, and on the
surface that may seem Likea negative thing, but I just
had a lot of relationshipsthat were really unfair to me.
And now I have more timefor the relationships

(01:03:28):
that are fulfilling andthat are reciprocated
and that are genuine.
So I'm spending thesame amount of time with
the people that I love.
Like I just have this listof names in my head of all of
these people who I used to worryabout and stress out about.
Call them

K (01:03:42):
out.
Call them out.
Name and shame.

Chloe (01:03:46):
I would like, do you remember how much of
our time was spent in ourearly days of me crying to
you about various people?
And I don't know whatto do and why are they
treating me this way?
And, and what can I doto make them happy again?
And, and that just isn'treally something that
we talk about anymore.

K (01:04:02):
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
I mean, really this wasall for selfish reasons.
I just got tiredof listening to it.

Chloe (01:04:10):
I mean, it worked out really well for you.

K (01:04:15):
Chloe, you know, I know a lot about myself and
I know you have a lot ofclients who are autistic.
What is my experience likecompared to what's out there?

Chloe (01:04:25):
Well, I, I have a master's degree in clinical
social work, right?
So I have a therapy history,but that helped me with how to
work on relationship issues.
But what I found is a lot ofmy clients are neurodivergent
and As Advice by Chloe hasgrown, I've also had this

(01:04:46):
influx of people who havebeen working with who didn't
respond as well to thetechniques that I was using.
So, I made a lot of changesin the past years, and I
mean, being, being with youhas been incredibly helpful,
but I base everything on you.
that I do off of data.
I'm just a verydata driven person.
I'm a clinician.

(01:05:07):
Everything a good therapistdoes is evidence based, right?
Like you, you, you can't havea client and just tell them
to try something that you feellike maybe will work, right?
That is how it works.
I do a tremendous amount ofresearch and what's really
heartbreaking is the number ofclients I have had who come to

(01:05:30):
me as a last resort and they'relike, Hey, I've never had a
girlfriend and I've never,I've never kissed anyone.
And I am so lonely andI don't know what to do.
I think there must besomething very, very wrong
with me, but I can't Andit just broke my heart.
And at the time, I didn'treally have any services

(01:05:53):
to accommodate that.
So I started doing alot of research into how
do I help these people?
There are so many studiesthat show over and over
and over again thatpeople with ASD really
struggle in relationships.
There was.
The study in 2018 that showedthat 80 percent of men with ASD
desire romantic relationships,but almost 70 percent of them

(01:06:17):
really struggle to obtain them.

K (01:06:19):
Geez.

Chloe (01:06:20):
It's just crazy.
And then there was anotherstudy that showed that only 32
percent of men on the spectrumhave been in a relationship
that lasts longer than a year.
And then I found this 2020 studythat showed that 64 percent of
men on the spectrum who theyinterviewed had never been
in a romantic relationshipat all, as compared to 10

(01:06:41):
percent of the neurotypicalpeople that they interviewed
in the same age group.
So people who are neurodivergentdesire relationships.
They're strugglingto obtain them.
Once they have them, theystruggle to keep them.
And they are delayed interms of what they want.
the age they are at whenthey start to experience

(01:07:04):
those relationships.
And, you know, I felt really,I feel really ashamed admitting
this because I am a clinicianand I work with people on the
spectrum every single day.
And my best friendis on the spectrum.
But when I first met Kay,I had a heart to heart

(01:07:27):
with my closest friends.
And I was like, Hey, Ireally like this guy.
But I don't think thatI can be with him.
Like, I don't, I don'tknow how to be with him.
I don't understand himand I don't know how to
communicate with him.
And I don't think he knowshow to communicate with me.
And all I know is thatevery time I talk to

(01:07:47):
him, I like him more.
And every time I talk tohim, I walk away and my
feelings are really hurt.
I just felt really powerless.
Looking back at that now,we were so close, Kay, to
breaking up, like, so close.

K (01:08:04):
I know.
There were quite a few moments.
Well, I'm really glad thatyou, you stuck it out and you
helped me learn and understandeach other and communicate.
And, you know, now it'sWe are where we are.
So

Chloe (01:08:21):
I'm, I'm really glad that you helped me like, and it
really like hurts me to thinkabout, I was almost another
person who didn't give you achance, who thought you were
rude and just walked away.
It just haunts me.
I feel emotional justthinking about it because
you are wonderful.
Right.
And then I thinkabout my clients.

(01:08:41):
I have clients that I'veworked with for years.
And.
And many of them I have veryclose relationships with and
I care about them and I cansee how wonderful they are
and I watch them go on dayafter day after day and I
can see it hurting them, Ican see it causing them pain,

(01:09:02):
I can see them deflatingand feeling frustrated.
It's really disappointingto me that there's so
little education, right,because when you and I
figured out how to do this.
I took that information andI built it into a program.
You know, humans tendto treat social skills

(01:09:23):
like they're innate.
We treat it as though socialskills are just something that
you have or you don't have.
We don't treat it like it'ssomething that you learn.
But it is.
Every social skill thathumans have, we learned.
But for neurotypicals,We started learning
those skills as infants.

(01:09:44):
We learned how to interactwith the world because the
world was built for our brains.
But for people who areneurodivergent, the
world wasn't built toaccommodate their brains.
And then up until prettyrecently, autism was
very underdiagnosed.
Even when it was diagnosed,there wasn't a lot of help.

(01:10:06):
And so now thesepeople are adults.
And no one ever taught themthese social skills, right?
And, and it's not thatthey can't learn them.
It's that they need to learnthem a little bit differently.
And it takes time and effortto figure out, okay, how does
your brain need to process this?
What are your needs?
What are your struggles?

(01:10:26):
And so that's what I do.
And it's been incrediblyfulfilling to watch my
clients go from having neverbeen on a date to being
in healthy relationships.
And this isn't an adfor advice by Chloe.
It's, it's just, it'sso meaningful to me and

(01:10:46):
it's so important to me.
And since I met Kay, it'sfelt very personal to me
because now I love someone.
Who I feel is really undervaluedfor a really long time and
it makes me angry and itmakes me sad and I want to
just fight a bunch of people.

(01:11:09):
Right?
Like, I have a list ofpeople who I want to give
a knuckle sandwich to.
And it makes me angry, youknow, when, when, when you're
in meetings and, and, and Ican see you struggle, I can
see you recognize this isn'tgoing great, but I don't know
what's wrong and like I cansee that look in your eyes and
I can see that confusion andI can see that frustration and

(01:11:32):
it wrecks me because you try sohard, you try harder than most
people and you try all the time.
And I just wanted to make thispodcast and I wanted you to
be my co host because I wantedpeople to see what this looks
like, you know, like what,what a relationship looks
like when two people havevery different brains, right?

(01:11:57):
But they figure outhow to make it work and
they love each other.
And.
They're largely healthy, right?
And the parts that aren'thealthy, they work through.
And I think it, it's reallyvaluable to have something
like this, where I'm veryneurotypical and I'm very
psychology based and I'mvery clinical and I'm also
very emotional and sensitive.

(01:12:17):
And K is very,very logic forward.
And he is neurodivergent, andso we can talk about things
like love and relationships andmental health in a way that I
feel accommodates a much widerspectrum of humans than if it

(01:12:37):
was just one or the other of us.

K (01:12:40):
That's really sweet.
I love you.

Chloe (01:12:43):
I love you.
I'm really excited.
I think this is going to be fun.
Most of our episodes arenot going to be focused
on our relationships.
But we're going to betalking about what dating
and relationship looks likeno matter what part of this
human spectrum you're on.
How to navigate dating apps,how to navigate dates, how to

(01:13:05):
navigate relationships, howto figure out what kind of
relationship you're looking for.
And I am, I'm reallyreally excited to do
it with my best friend.
That's you.
I love you.
I love you.