May 6, 2025 • 18 mins
Our friend Dave Harvey writes a new devotional every Tuesday. Recently, he wrote this, “I feel it. You probably do as well. Regardless of where we are called to lead, we want our efforts to be fruitful; to make a difference. So far, so good. But there is something we smuggle into our service: We want it to set us apart. Distinction, in a fallen world, is the doorway to ascent, gaining followership, delivering a return on investment. Fresh or unique thinking is a pathway to honor and acclaim.” Conviction on aisle 9 for you?
https://revdaveharvey.com/2025/03/31/our-dance-with-distinction/
Dave also highlighted three questions to ask about forgiveness!
https://revdaveharvey.com/2020/03/09/3-questions-to-ask-about-forgiveness/
Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshow/wkes
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
Kurt and Kate mornings. Not just on the radio.
S2 (00:03):
It's a podcast too.
S1 (00:06):
Our good friend from Southwest Florida, Dave Harvey. He's been
in ministry for decades. He's an author. He's been a pastor,
and we love to reconnect with him. He has this
thing on Tuesdays. He posts a devotional, and it's kind
of neat just to check in with him and see
what he's thinking about, what he's pondering. Tenacious Tuesdays is
(00:31):
the name of it. But the thing with Dave is,
once I start reading one of his whatever he's writing,
whether it be books or devotions or whatever, then I
want to read another, you know, oh, I got to
get another book. Then I gotta, you know, it's just
really neat because he's a good thinker and he gets
me thinking in a way that's healthy, that's Christ centered,
(00:53):
that's biblical. And we chatted with him about a couple
of things. The first one was the dance with distinction.
This is what you write. I feel it. You probably
do as well. Regardless of where we are called to lead.
We want our efforts to be fruitful, to make a difference.
(01:15):
So far, so good. But there is something we smuggle
into our service. We want it to set us apart.
What you're talking about here, Dave, is distinction. Okay. Conviction
on aisle nine. This kind of hurts to talk about
(01:35):
this when you actually can see this in yourself. You
don't have to be a leader. You can just be
a regular believer and you can see it there. Yeah.
S3 (01:44):
I first heard this idea from a sermon that was
written back in like 18, 14 or so. So at
a graduation ceremony at Yale in 1814, the speaker was
a guy named Timothy Dwight. He he was the grandson
of Jonathan Edwards. So Edwards had another grandson named Aaron
(02:07):
Burr who who killed Alexander Hamilton? This was yeah, this
was another grandson named Timothy Dwight. And he was speaking
to future pastors on a topic that he thought was
the greatest threat to the soul and the greatest threat
to fruitful ministry. And he called it on the love
(02:27):
of distinction. And he said, there's no pursuits that are
more absolutely selfish than this love of distinction. And and
in saying that he wasn't talking about the desire to
use our gifts to serve God, or the desire even
to develop ourselves to our fullest potential, he was talking
(02:48):
about when our motivations for doing so move from God
to people. And and actually, I was thinking about this
while you guys were talking about the woodpecker. Here's the
spiritual parallel to the woodpecker.
S4 (03:02):
Oh, yeah. Great. Perfect.
S3 (03:04):
We're drawn repeatedly to the mirror. We want to see
ourselves with the hope that we are always growing bigger
in the eyes of people. And so it's the. It's
the corruption of that desire for using our gifts. That
is the love of of distinction.
S4 (03:25):
Wow.
S1 (03:26):
Where were you when we needed you? At the top
of the hour for that woodpecker parallel. Spiritual parallel that
that is so, so good. So what we're talking about
here is it's still it's still about me, even though
I'm doing something for you. Now, how in the world
do we navigate this? How do we get out of
that trap? And I know it may not be an
(03:48):
overnight thing, but it seems to me that if we
are constantly reflecting on our motives every time we try
to serve the Lord, we might have the paralysis of analysis.
We might lock up. We might be like, well, if
my motives are not what they should be here, and
maybe it's a bit selfish, maybe I shouldn't do anything
(04:09):
at all. And then suddenly we're just sitting on the bench.
S3 (04:13):
Yeah, I think we need to be in motion on
the field, using our gifts for God's glory, trusting that God,
the Holy Spirit, will convict us of sin and help
us to, you know, be running and and and using
our gifts for him. But I do think there has
to be a way of evaluating the fruit of inviting
(04:36):
other people into our life to, to examine, um, whether
we seem to be moving and doing those things for
God or for ourselves, whether we're speaking in ways that
attract attention to ourselves versus magnifying and glorifying God. Because ultimately,
(04:58):
you know it, our our motives or our speech reveals
our heart. And so how we're talking about ourselves and
how we're talking about what our doing can be a
great big window into what's going on within our soul.
S4 (05:13):
Hmm.
S1 (05:14):
Will I be content if my achievements as I serve
the Lord and others are not often celebrated by public,
you know? You know, accolades, if you will, or head
turning achievement. What kind of distinction do you need to
be truly satisfied in God? I think these are healthy questions.
S4 (05:32):
Yeah.
S2 (05:33):
You know, I as reading your article, which I loved,
by the way, um, it made me think of someone
who was a renowned pastor around the world. Um, sadly,
heartbreakingly did not finish well because we found out that
he had been doing some things that were not okay.
(05:54):
And do you think that part of the problem with
being distinct, with having lofty in that sense is that
at some point they say to themselves, well, I am different.
The same rules don't apply to me. Your sin is
not my sin. It's not really sin for me because
I'm doing big, more important work.
S3 (06:16):
I think the more we get detached from the local church,
the more we get detached from just caring for people,
having other people around us, even even being involved in
a small group. The more that we can move into
an echo chamber where our gifts become large. The only
thing we hear is about what a great job we're doing,
(06:39):
and most of the feedback comes regarding how people experience
us publicly. And so there's this. There is we become
detached from the reality of of real life, and we
begin to be known for just the impact that we're
having on people. That's a very dangerous place to, to land. And,
(07:02):
and it's far easier to live for the love of distinction,
because people will prop that up. In us. And and
we can live in a bubble where we don't get
the perspective that we need to get.
S1 (07:15):
And we have more opportunity to receive some of that attention. Distinction.
ET cetera. Today than. Ever before. Okay. Hello. Social media.
Here we go. Right.
S3 (07:29):
Yeah. Social media. Internet. Uh, the the opportunities for, uh,
for for people to be able to reach beyond their,
their community, reach beyond their local church, and achieve a
platform has never been greater. And and this is something
that exists in all of our hearts. So it's not
like there are some people that have this and others
(07:51):
that I see the battle in my own heart. I mean,
I I've got a book coming out in September and
and as I'm sitting and writing it, there is this
genuine desire for this book to serve leaders. And then
there's this whole other part that wants it to, to
sell well, to enhance my name, to win me favor.
(08:11):
And I hate that about myself. But but I do
know that the more I move towards that, the more
I feed that, the more that love of distinction gains
power within my soul and starts to flip and corrupt
my motivations.
S1 (08:29):
What's the name of the book?
S3 (08:31):
It's called the Clay Pot Conspiracy.
S4 (08:34):
Oh, okay.
S1 (08:34):
All right. We've chatted with you about this before, that
very topic.
S3 (08:39):
Yes, we've talked about Second Corinthians four, which the which
it's drawn from, and just some of the ways that, uh,
that that passage comes to bear on weakness and, and
on how God puts his treasure in clay pots and
then breaks the pot to, to free the power of
the gospel.
S5 (08:59):
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this
episode of the podcast. Cast. We always welcome a review
with your thoughts and comments, and please feel free to
subscribe and follow us as well.
S1 (09:11):
Our correspondent for all things Lake Wales. That would be
our good buddy Chet is joining us and Dave, he's
got some thoughts here on our conversation. So let's go
to Chet. Hey Chet. Good morning.
S6 (09:26):
Good morning. Hi, Dave. What a great privilege to meet you. Um.
Two thoughts. One is, uh, deciding not to do something
is a decision. So, uh, you know, there is no
such thing as deciding to do nothing. It is a decision. And, uh,
(09:47):
the other comment I'd like to make is that your
upcoming book, uh, is really dovetailing with something I'm working
on in a new book about how God uses 90%
of the life lived on planet Earth is by unknown,
known unnamed people. And it's not the I thank God
(10:09):
for Billy Graham. I thank God for you. I thank
God for people in the limelight. But most of life,
most of ministry is done by people who don't have
a plaque or a published name.
S1 (10:21):
Boy.
S4 (10:22):
That's right.
S1 (10:23):
By the way, Dave Chet has his own theme song,
but he's making a really good point. Uh, obscurity is
it's good for us, and most of us live our
lives in obscurity. And so there again, whatever we do,
we do with all of our might. As for the Lord,
not for men, because I don't care how famous you are,
(10:44):
you're eventually going to be forgotten.
S3 (10:48):
Yeah, I think true greatness is is found in the simple,
everyday monotony of life and how we're how we're engaging God,
how we're engaging others, how we're engaging our own hearts.
Things that most people will never even know about us.
(11:10):
And that there's a there are people that have the
privilege of having high profiles on this earth. But I
suspect that when we're in heaven, the people that are
going to be closest to the throne are going to
be people whose names no one has ever even heard
because they've just been faithful in obscurity.
S1 (11:28):
I totally agree with that. And, you know, I'm also
thinking as well, are our motives ever really 100% pure? Uh, again,
we can be so introspective where we just kind of
freeze and we don't want to freeze up. But when
it comes to rewards, we know the Lord looks at
the heart. And that's most important. And the eternal rewards,
(11:50):
you know, he's going to honor and reward us for
the things done in sincerity. Uh, in his name. But
then you kind of wonder, have I ever done anything
that was truly pure when it came to my motives?
And if so, what does that mean for my rewards?
Is this where grace comes in?
S3 (12:09):
And I'm grateful that God is wise, and just because
he'll be able to sort all that out? Because I
agree with you, I doubt there's anything that I've ever
done that's been completely pure. And I think J.I. Packer
says everything we do is shot through with sin and
require something from which we need to be forgiven. And,
(12:29):
you know, the closer we get to God and the
more we understand Scripture and the more we look at
our own heart, and the older we get, the more
we realize, yeah, there's always mixture there. And that's what
makes the gospel so amazing is because, you know, as
we as God grows bigger and we grow more aware
(12:50):
of our sinfulness, the cross is also growing and and
connecting those two things so that the gospel is making
us aware that that Christ is enough, and that even
in the sinfulness, even in all of the things that
we've done that have mixture, all of the things, all
the ways we've sinned and don't even know about that,
(13:13):
that the gospel is sufficient and the cross is sufficient
to cover those things, so that when we arrive in heaven,
the declaration over us will be well done, good and
faithful servant, not because everything has been pure and unmixed,
but because of what Christ accomplished on our behalf.
S1 (13:33):
And I'm thinking that we might have somebody here this
morning listening who is grappling with forgiveness in one way
or another, forgiving other people. We are it's not optional
for us as believers, but it can be a journey
and it can be very difficult. And we need God's
help to do this. I guess the best place to
(13:54):
begin begin. We're going to get to the three questions
to ask about forgiveness here. We don't have a ton
of time, but I want to set the table for this. Hello.
Here's the obvious. We all have been forgiven. given a
huge debt that we could never repay. As Jesus died
for our sins on the cross. If we have been
(14:14):
forgiven of so much, how in the world can we
withhold forgiveness from somebody else? That's where we start, isn't it?
S3 (14:23):
Forgiveness is first a a vertical issue. In other words,
if we're always addressing it by by looking horizontally at
the person that we feel has sinned against us, we
will never break through. It's first something that Christ has
provided for us. Each of us has been forgiven this
inestimable debt that we could never repay. And in response,
(14:48):
we are called to pass along the forgiveness that we
have received, because Christ's death and resurrection. And because of
his death, death, and resurrection, he has supplied us that forgiveness.
Therefore we go and do the same.
S1 (15:03):
Three questions to ask about forgiveness. Number one. Where is
your head?
S3 (15:11):
Yeah. Uh, Lewis. C.S. Lewis says everyone says forgiveness is
a lovely idea. And until they have something they need
to forgive because bitterness and resentment can become such a
part of the feedback loop in our mind. It's fed
through meditation, and we justify it because we think that
(15:34):
by mulling it over, we're actually making progress. And so
in our we're in our head and we're running the
scenarios and the scenes, but we're always prosecuting the other
person on the witness stand, making a caricature of them
and attacking them. So the first question is where is
your head? Because we've got to get our head out
of this rut of unforgiveness.
S1 (15:56):
Where's your head? The next one is where is your heart?
S3 (16:01):
Yeah, the heart is, you know, that's what engages the gospel.
Are we have received this, this great, incredible forgiveness. And
in the parable, The Unforgiven Sinner, he's been forgiven this
great debt. But he turns and he grabs somebody who
owes him a very small amount. And this is what
(16:21):
he screams in their face. He's got him jacked up
against the wall saying, pay what you owe. And so
we have to look and examine our relational landscape, those
people that we feel withdrawn from right now, that we
feel we're on this noble high ground and, and, and
ask the question, is this just a sophisticated way for
(16:43):
us to say, pay what you owe? We're withdrawing from
them because we want them to pay what they owe.
S4 (16:50):
Well.
S1 (16:51):
Final question. Where are your hands?
S3 (16:56):
Yeah. So forgiving isn't just a matter of thinking and
and feeling it. It requires action. It requires and and orientation.
It requires steps. because forgiveness requires courage. There's a there's
a rugged love that is involved in forgiveness. Christ came
to us. We we didn't go to him. And so
(17:18):
we have to be willing to say, I'm not going
to punish you. I'm going to pull the pay what
you owe off the table and not try to throttle you,
but release you from the punishment that I think you
deserve because of what you've done for me. Because in
Christ I have been released of the punishment that I deserved.
(17:42):
And I'm not. I didn't receive that punishment. And so
I'm not going to hold you hostage for a punishment
that I think you should receive.
S2 (17:52):
Thanks for listening to Kurt and Kate Mornings podcast. Please
take a minute to follow, subscribe and review us. And
no matter where in the world you are, you can
listen to us live from 6 to 9 a.m. weekdays
on the Moody Radio app.
Kurt and Kate mornings. Not just on the radio.
S2 (00:03):
It's a podcast too.
S1 (00:06):
Our good friend from Southwest Florida, Dave Harvey. He's been
in ministry for decades. He's an author. He's been a pastor,
and we love to reconnect with him. He has this
thing on Tuesdays. He posts a devotional, and it's kind
of neat just to check in with him and see
what he's thinking about, what he's pondering. Tenacious Tuesdays is
(00:31):
the name of it. But the thing with Dave is,
once I start reading one of his whatever he's writing,
whether it be books or devotions or whatever, then I
want to read another, you know, oh, I got to
get another book. Then I gotta, you know, it's just
really neat because he's a good thinker and he gets
me thinking in a way that's healthy, that's Christ centered,
(00:53):
that's biblical. And we chatted with him about a couple
of things. The first one was the dance with distinction.
This is what you write. I feel it. You probably
do as well. Regardless of where we are called to lead.
We want our efforts to be fruitful, to make a difference.
(01:15):
So far, so good. But there is something we smuggle
into our service. We want it to set us apart.
What you're talking about here, Dave, is distinction. Okay. Conviction
on aisle nine. This kind of hurts to talk about
(01:35):
this when you actually can see this in yourself. You
don't have to be a leader. You can just be
a regular believer and you can see it there. Yeah.
S3 (01:44):
I first heard this idea from a sermon that was
written back in like 18, 14 or so. So at
a graduation ceremony at Yale in 1814, the speaker was
a guy named Timothy Dwight. He he was the grandson
of Jonathan Edwards. So Edwards had another grandson named Aaron
(02:07):
Burr who who killed Alexander Hamilton? This was yeah, this
was another grandson named Timothy Dwight. And he was speaking
to future pastors on a topic that he thought was
the greatest threat to the soul and the greatest threat
to fruitful ministry. And he called it on the love
(02:27):
of distinction. And he said, there's no pursuits that are
more absolutely selfish than this love of distinction. And and
in saying that he wasn't talking about the desire to
use our gifts to serve God, or the desire even
to develop ourselves to our fullest potential, he was talking
(02:48):
about when our motivations for doing so move from God
to people. And and actually, I was thinking about this
while you guys were talking about the woodpecker. Here's the
spiritual parallel to the woodpecker.
S4 (03:02):
Oh, yeah. Great. Perfect.
S3 (03:04):
We're drawn repeatedly to the mirror. We want to see
ourselves with the hope that we are always growing bigger
in the eyes of people. And so it's the. It's
the corruption of that desire for using our gifts. That
is the love of of distinction.
S4 (03:25):
Wow.
S1 (03:26):
Where were you when we needed you? At the top
of the hour for that woodpecker parallel. Spiritual parallel that
that is so, so good. So what we're talking about
here is it's still it's still about me, even though
I'm doing something for you. Now, how in the world
do we navigate this? How do we get out of
that trap? And I know it may not be an
(03:48):
overnight thing, but it seems to me that if we
are constantly reflecting on our motives every time we try
to serve the Lord, we might have the paralysis of analysis.
We might lock up. We might be like, well, if
my motives are not what they should be here, and
maybe it's a bit selfish, maybe I shouldn't do anything
(04:09):
at all. And then suddenly we're just sitting on the bench.
S3 (04:13):
Yeah, I think we need to be in motion on
the field, using our gifts for God's glory, trusting that God,
the Holy Spirit, will convict us of sin and help
us to, you know, be running and and and using
our gifts for him. But I do think there has
to be a way of evaluating the fruit of inviting
(04:36):
other people into our life to, to examine, um, whether
we seem to be moving and doing those things for
God or for ourselves, whether we're speaking in ways that
attract attention to ourselves versus magnifying and glorifying God. Because ultimately,
(04:58):
you know it, our our motives or our speech reveals
our heart. And so how we're talking about ourselves and
how we're talking about what our doing can be a
great big window into what's going on within our soul.
S4 (05:13):
Hmm.
S1 (05:14):
Will I be content if my achievements as I serve
the Lord and others are not often celebrated by public,
you know? You know, accolades, if you will, or head
turning achievement. What kind of distinction do you need to
be truly satisfied in God? I think these are healthy questions.
S4 (05:32):
Yeah.
S2 (05:33):
You know, I as reading your article, which I loved,
by the way, um, it made me think of someone
who was a renowned pastor around the world. Um, sadly,
heartbreakingly did not finish well because we found out that
he had been doing some things that were not okay.
(05:54):
And do you think that part of the problem with
being distinct, with having lofty in that sense is that
at some point they say to themselves, well, I am different.
The same rules don't apply to me. Your sin is
not my sin. It's not really sin for me because
I'm doing big, more important work.
S3 (06:16):
I think the more we get detached from the local church,
the more we get detached from just caring for people,
having other people around us, even even being involved in
a small group. The more that we can move into
an echo chamber where our gifts become large. The only
thing we hear is about what a great job we're doing,
(06:39):
and most of the feedback comes regarding how people experience
us publicly. And so there's this. There is we become
detached from the reality of of real life, and we
begin to be known for just the impact that we're
having on people. That's a very dangerous place to, to land. And,
(07:02):
and it's far easier to live for the love of distinction,
because people will prop that up. In us. And and
we can live in a bubble where we don't get
the perspective that we need to get.
S1 (07:15):
And we have more opportunity to receive some of that attention. Distinction.
ET cetera. Today than. Ever before. Okay. Hello. Social media.
Here we go. Right.
S3 (07:29):
Yeah. Social media. Internet. Uh, the the opportunities for, uh,
for for people to be able to reach beyond their,
their community, reach beyond their local church, and achieve a
platform has never been greater. And and this is something
that exists in all of our hearts. So it's not
like there are some people that have this and others
(07:51):
that I see the battle in my own heart. I mean,
I I've got a book coming out in September and
and as I'm sitting and writing it, there is this
genuine desire for this book to serve leaders. And then
there's this whole other part that wants it to, to
sell well, to enhance my name, to win me favor.
(08:11):
And I hate that about myself. But but I do
know that the more I move towards that, the more
I feed that, the more that love of distinction gains
power within my soul and starts to flip and corrupt
my motivations.
S1 (08:29):
What's the name of the book?
S3 (08:31):
It's called the Clay Pot Conspiracy.
S4 (08:34):
Oh, okay.
S1 (08:34):
All right. We've chatted with you about this before, that
very topic.
S3 (08:39):
Yes, we've talked about Second Corinthians four, which the which
it's drawn from, and just some of the ways that, uh,
that that passage comes to bear on weakness and, and
on how God puts his treasure in clay pots and
then breaks the pot to, to free the power of
the gospel.
S5 (08:59):
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this
episode of the podcast. Cast. We always welcome a review
with your thoughts and comments, and please feel free to
subscribe and follow us as well.
S1 (09:11):
Our correspondent for all things Lake Wales. That would be
our good buddy Chet is joining us and Dave, he's
got some thoughts here on our conversation. So let's go
to Chet. Hey Chet. Good morning.
S6 (09:26):
Good morning. Hi, Dave. What a great privilege to meet you. Um.
Two thoughts. One is, uh, deciding not to do something
is a decision. So, uh, you know, there is no
such thing as deciding to do nothing. It is a decision. And, uh,
(09:47):
the other comment I'd like to make is that your
upcoming book, uh, is really dovetailing with something I'm working
on in a new book about how God uses 90%
of the life lived on planet Earth is by unknown,
known unnamed people. And it's not the I thank God
(10:09):
for Billy Graham. I thank God for you. I thank
God for people in the limelight. But most of life,
most of ministry is done by people who don't have
a plaque or a published name.
S1 (10:21):
Boy.
S4 (10:22):
That's right.
S1 (10:23):
By the way, Dave Chet has his own theme song,
but he's making a really good point. Uh, obscurity is
it's good for us, and most of us live our
lives in obscurity. And so there again, whatever we do,
we do with all of our might. As for the Lord,
not for men, because I don't care how famous you are,
(10:44):
you're eventually going to be forgotten.
S3 (10:48):
Yeah, I think true greatness is is found in the simple,
everyday monotony of life and how we're how we're engaging God,
how we're engaging others, how we're engaging our own hearts.
Things that most people will never even know about us.
(11:10):
And that there's a there are people that have the
privilege of having high profiles on this earth. But I
suspect that when we're in heaven, the people that are
going to be closest to the throne are going to
be people whose names no one has ever even heard
because they've just been faithful in obscurity.
S1 (11:28):
I totally agree with that. And, you know, I'm also
thinking as well, are our motives ever really 100% pure? Uh, again,
we can be so introspective where we just kind of
freeze and we don't want to freeze up. But when
it comes to rewards, we know the Lord looks at
the heart. And that's most important. And the eternal rewards,
(11:50):
you know, he's going to honor and reward us for
the things done in sincerity. Uh, in his name. But
then you kind of wonder, have I ever done anything
that was truly pure when it came to my motives?
And if so, what does that mean for my rewards?
Is this where grace comes in?
S3 (12:09):
And I'm grateful that God is wise, and just because
he'll be able to sort all that out? Because I
agree with you, I doubt there's anything that I've ever
done that's been completely pure. And I think J.I. Packer
says everything we do is shot through with sin and
require something from which we need to be forgiven. And,
(12:29):
you know, the closer we get to God and the
more we understand Scripture and the more we look at
our own heart, and the older we get, the more
we realize, yeah, there's always mixture there. And that's what
makes the gospel so amazing is because, you know, as
we as God grows bigger and we grow more aware
(12:50):
of our sinfulness, the cross is also growing and and
connecting those two things so that the gospel is making
us aware that that Christ is enough, and that even
in the sinfulness, even in all of the things that
we've done that have mixture, all of the things, all
the ways we've sinned and don't even know about that,
(13:13):
that the gospel is sufficient and the cross is sufficient
to cover those things, so that when we arrive in heaven,
the declaration over us will be well done, good and
faithful servant, not because everything has been pure and unmixed,
but because of what Christ accomplished on our behalf.
S1 (13:33):
And I'm thinking that we might have somebody here this
morning listening who is grappling with forgiveness in one way
or another, forgiving other people. We are it's not optional
for us as believers, but it can be a journey
and it can be very difficult. And we need God's
help to do this. I guess the best place to
(13:54):
begin begin. We're going to get to the three questions
to ask about forgiveness here. We don't have a ton
of time, but I want to set the table for this. Hello.
Here's the obvious. We all have been forgiven. given a
huge debt that we could never repay. As Jesus died
for our sins on the cross. If we have been
(14:14):
forgiven of so much, how in the world can we
withhold forgiveness from somebody else? That's where we start, isn't it?
S3 (14:23):
Forgiveness is first a a vertical issue. In other words,
if we're always addressing it by by looking horizontally at
the person that we feel has sinned against us, we
will never break through. It's first something that Christ has
provided for us. Each of us has been forgiven this
inestimable debt that we could never repay. And in response,
(14:48):
we are called to pass along the forgiveness that we
have received, because Christ's death and resurrection. And because of
his death, death, and resurrection, he has supplied us that forgiveness.
Therefore we go and do the same.
S1 (15:03):
Three questions to ask about forgiveness. Number one. Where is
your head?
S3 (15:11):
Yeah. Uh, Lewis. C.S. Lewis says everyone says forgiveness is
a lovely idea. And until they have something they need
to forgive because bitterness and resentment can become such a
part of the feedback loop in our mind. It's fed
through meditation, and we justify it because we think that
(15:34):
by mulling it over, we're actually making progress. And so
in our we're in our head and we're running the
scenarios and the scenes, but we're always prosecuting the other
person on the witness stand, making a caricature of them
and attacking them. So the first question is where is
your head? Because we've got to get our head out
of this rut of unforgiveness.
S1 (15:56):
Where's your head? The next one is where is your heart?
S3 (16:01):
Yeah, the heart is, you know, that's what engages the gospel.
Are we have received this, this great, incredible forgiveness. And
in the parable, The Unforgiven Sinner, he's been forgiven this
great debt. But he turns and he grabs somebody who
owes him a very small amount. And this is what
(16:21):
he screams in their face. He's got him jacked up
against the wall saying, pay what you owe. And so
we have to look and examine our relational landscape, those
people that we feel withdrawn from right now, that we
feel we're on this noble high ground and, and, and
ask the question, is this just a sophisticated way for
(16:43):
us to say, pay what you owe? We're withdrawing from
them because we want them to pay what they owe.
S4 (16:50):
Well.
S1 (16:51):
Final question. Where are your hands?
S3 (16:56):
Yeah. So forgiving isn't just a matter of thinking and
and feeling it. It requires action. It requires and and orientation.
It requires steps. because forgiveness requires courage. There's a there's
a rugged love that is involved in forgiveness. Christ came
to us. We we didn't go to him. And so
(17:18):
we have to be willing to say, I'm not going
to punish you. I'm going to pull the pay what
you owe off the table and not try to throttle you,
but release you from the punishment that I think you
deserve because of what you've done for me. Because in
Christ I have been released of the punishment that I deserved.
(17:42):
And I'm not. I didn't receive that punishment. And so
I'm not going to hold you hostage for a punishment
that I think you should receive.
S2 (17:52):
Thanks for listening to Kurt and Kate Mornings podcast. Please
take a minute to follow, subscribe and review us. And
no matter where in the world you are, you can
listen to us live from 6 to 9 a.m. weekdays
on the Moody Radio app.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!