April 30, 2025 • 25 mins
Is there a narcissist in your life that has you feeling weary and worn out? Biblical counselor Laurel Slade Waggoner is an expert on dealing with narcissism. She stopped by this morning to help callers take their next steps in breaking free from the control and manipulation that characterizes narcissistic behavior.
https://www.slade-waggonercounselingservices.com/
Her podcast, Help! I have a Narcissist in My Life - a free resource on all streaming platforms including a YouTube channel, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. Podcast episode transcripts are available for purchase on the website. https://www.youtube.com/@helpihaveanarcissistinmylife
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
Kurt and Kate mornings. Not just on the radio.
S2 (00:03):
It's a podcast too.
S1 (00:06):
We have so many wonderful people who hang out with
us on a regular basis. Uh, you guys who call
in to the show, uh, call in and text in. Then,
of course, we have some nationally known Christian leaders who
come back and see us and hang out with us
from time to time, and and authors and speakers and
(00:30):
Christian music artists. ET cetera, et cetera. And, uh, we
we are so blessed. I mean, it's it's an embarrassment
of riches when it comes to, uh, the folks who
hang out with us. One of our favorite people is
biblical counselor Laurel Slade Wagner. She paid us a visit, and, uh,
we opened up the phones. And whenever that happens, all
(00:51):
it takes is. Is Laurel's voice. Uh, she takes one call,
and her voice is. You can tell she loves Jesus. Uh,
the people who call in to ask her about relationship issues, um,
they feel seen by her. And because of that, they
feel seen by God. And for those who are struggling
(01:13):
with challenges in their relationships and we open up the phones,
generally speaking, we can't take all of the calls. And
that's a God thing. It really is. And Laurel is
really an expert when it comes to narcissism and all
of that. But she is a she's a board certified
professional Christian counselor who's been practicing in the Tampa Bay
(01:34):
area for more than 17 years. And her book, Don't
Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy About dealing with a
narcissist in your Life, is just it's amazing. We've walked
with her from the very beginning when that book was
just published. I mean, it hadn't been published very long
when we connected with her. So I say all of
that to say this, if you listen to some of
(01:55):
the calls that we received, uh, during this segment with
Laurel recently. Um, if you listen to these, maybe, maybe
God will want to meet you where you are. And
what Laurel has to say to them may be equally
applicable in your own life. So take some time. Kick
(02:15):
back a little bit. Let's dive in. Let's go to
Margie in Winter Haven first. Hi, Margie. What's your question
for Laurel? Thanks for calling.
S3 (02:26):
So I have an issue. I'm new at my job.
I started in, um, in February, and the lady that
sits across from me. First of all, I'm a believer.
I'm a Christian. Um, I don't know if she is, but.
So my thing is that every. I'm watched 24 over seven.
I'm like her. My. She's like my boss's eyes and
(02:48):
ears and, um, she's not a team player. Anything that happens.
Like I said, I just started this job. I'm new
at the job, and she runs to her for everything.
Like if I did something wrong and she and she
saw it instead of coming to me and helping me,
she doesn't. She runs to my boss and my boss
(03:09):
comes to me. I don't know how to handle that
because I, I don't. I went through a lot and
my other job where I suffered for a year and
a half, persecution. Everything that you could think of. And
I don't want to go through that again. And I
need my job. So I need, like, prayer.
S2 (03:29):
Yeah, absolutely. We'll pray for you.
S1 (03:32):
We'll pray for you before we let you go. Okay. So, Laura,
what are you thinking?
S4 (03:35):
Just being a witness to her. And. And maybe you
don't need to use words. You just use strategies with her.
So you reach out to her. You be kind and loving.
You just be yourself. Filled with the Holy Spirit. Then
you start to, you know, asking her once you develop
a relationship with her and and figure out where she's
(03:56):
coming from. you. You ask her. Hey, um. You know,
will you please, if any, if I'm doing anything offensive,
you know, we're we're both working for a common good.
You're trying to realign things so that she sees that
you're on the same side of the battlefield. You're you're
trying to accomplish the same goal. So she just needs
to know that you're for her, not against her. For
(04:19):
whatever reason, she feels this need to tattle like a
child and run to the boss trying to triangulate. But
if you can, try to realign things so you're on
the same side of the battlefield and and kind of
show her that you're working for the common, common good
of the company, and you both want the same things,
then maybe she'll start to reveal her character, let her
(04:43):
guard down, realize you're a safe person. So maybe some
of that that behavior will diminish a bit. Um, if
she continues it, then you got to get some other
eyes on it because you you can't be in that
environment would be too stressful. You'll be walking on eggshells
all the time. So that's where you would employ a
biblical strategy like Matthew 1815 through 17, where the first
(05:07):
step was like I was saying, you go to her directly.
The second step is you get some witnesses involved. And
so all of this is very biblical. You're showing her Christ.
You're showing her biblical ways, even though if she's not
a believer, you're not really telling her that these are
the biblical ways, because that might be offensive to her. Um,
or I don't know your company policy about talking about
(05:29):
Bible verses that at work, but there are things you
can do. And just remember that you are so very
valuable and precious, and you and you were not created
to be treated with diminishment or disrespect. And they're God's
holy word does have all these strategies to help you.
So don't give up hope.
S1 (05:49):
Margie. We're going to pray for you here. Uh, you
have a couple minutes so we can pray for you.
S3 (05:54):
Yes.
S1 (05:54):
Oh. That's great. Okay. Hey, Laura, why don't you lead us?
S4 (05:58):
Oh, heavenly father, I just thank you for Margie. I
thank you for the giftings that you've given her. I
thank you for leading her to this job. Lord, you
know that. She she wants to stay at this job.
I just ask whatever is going on that you you
are allowed in the middle of her relationship with this
very difficult coworker. I ask that truth is revealed. I
(06:21):
ask that you give Margie strength and courage to set
the boundaries that she needs to set so her workplace
can be a source of joy and nourishment. And I
just asked if anyone else is struggling as Margie is struggling, that, um,
that they just get strength and wisdom to so that
they can set the boundaries that they need to set
(06:42):
in their workplace. Lord, and we just love you. And
we just ask all this in the power of your
holy name, Jesus, through the power of your Holy Spirit. Amen.
S2 (06:50):
Amen.
S3 (06:51):
Amen. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
S2 (06:53):
Guys. Thank you. God bless you. Have a good day.
S1 (06:56):
Hang in there. Thank you for praying for Margie. Let's
go to Diane who is joining us this morning from
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Hi, Diane. We're glad you're with us.
What's your question for Laurel?
S5 (07:09):
Yeah. Um, I kind of need to know how I
can be the best spouse I can to a narcissist
who's become blind in the last five, six years. And, uh,
we've been together, you know, over 50.
S4 (07:26):
Wow. And that's a tough one, isn't it? I'm sure
that that your heart is just pulled in so many
different directions because of his disability. But keep in mind
that the two aren't braided together. We're not to overlook
sin and disrespect and and abuse. I don't know what's
going on with him, but we don't overlook those things
(07:49):
just because he's blind. So we. You tell him that
you know this behavior is not acceptable. I love you
and I. I want to be your your soulmate. I
want to be a one flesh with you. But I
can't have these behaviors going on. And so whatever he's
(08:11):
doing that is hurtful, you give him an opportunity, you
speak the truth and love to him, that you're going
to stand by him and you're going to be that spouse,
that you're going to have a marriage after God's own heart.
But he has to participate in that process, too. So
you're not going to overlook all those sinful, disrespectful behavior
just because he's blind. That's not what God wants you
(08:34):
to do. Because God, even though he's blind, God is
just as concerned about his character. Um, even more so
than his blindness. He's concerned about his spiritual blindness. And
so we still take those steps that the Bible talks
about so that we can not enable somebody else's sin
so we can work with God to help that person, uh,
(08:56):
separate themselves from those sins. So God has so many
strategies on what to do. Um, like Kurt mentioned, my
first book, there's a there's a chapter on assertiveness in
there where you can invite him into a plan of change.
So you you want to say those things that I
was just saying, I recommend, um, that you write it
(09:19):
all out, that you read it to them because he's blind.
If you weren't blind, I would say that you give
him the letter, um, so that he can digest the
information in there. Um, and you don't get the brunt
of his reaction, but you're going to say that I
need you to do these things. I need you to
work on these specific behaviors because they can't be part
(09:40):
of our marriage. They can't be part of how we
interact with each other. They're separating you from God. They're
separating me from you. And and you need to separate
from those behaviors. Um, and so you invite him into
a plan of change. If he doesn't, if he won't
agree to that, that's where you start using that redemptive, um,
Scripture Matthew 1815 through 17 which says, if your brother
(10:03):
sins against you, go and work it out just between
the two of you. If you won't listen, you bring
the witnesses. So maybe you go to counseling or go
to a pastor. Um, next step is to take it
to the church. Then the next step would be to
employ that redemptive tool separation. The Bible says treat him
like a pagan or a tax collector, but that's that's
using that tool separation because that's what they did in
(10:25):
that society. So there is help out there. I don't
want you to think that you're the God wants you
to stay stuck and continue to be disrespected and abused
just because he's blind.
S5 (10:37):
Wow. Thank you so much.
S1 (10:40):
Thank you, Diane, very much for calling us and for
listening in Grand Rapids. Thank you for being with us.
S6 (10:47):
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this
episode of the Curtin Mornings podcast. We always welcome a
review with your thoughts and comments, and please feel free
to subscribe and follow us as well.
S1 (10:59):
Let's go next to Karen who is joining us from Orlando.
Hi Karen. Good morning to you.
S7 (11:05):
So my situation is very long term, but I'll make
I'll make a try to make a quick question. Um,
Mary 35 years to, um, someone that has definitely got
full on narcissistic personality disorder. We went to multiple counselors.
ET cetera. ET cetera. But we have four children together.
(11:26):
The youngest are 17.5, and I, they live with me. Um, so,
you know, attempting to co-parent. We are not divorced, just
separated for two years. But the the latest thing and
there's been there's a lot of back and forth with
(11:47):
the trying to co-parent. But the latest thing is that, um,
he is telling my daughters, um, that God is telling
him or somehow he's getting this message that there's going
to be an apocalypse, uh, in July. And, you know,
(12:09):
he's saying he doesn't know if it's a worldwide apocalypse
or a personal. It's just it's very concerning. Um, because it's,
you know, it sounds a little crazy, and I'm just wondering,
you know, how my daughters are 17.5. They're twins. And
(12:30):
so I don't want to be disrespectful to him, but
I want to say the right things to them in
this situation. He's not he's not gone this route before. Um,
I just wondered, like, what might be the right biblical
way to handle the conversation with them about this new,
(12:52):
you know, that thing that he's claiming?
S4 (12:54):
Yeah. That that's so tough. You are not being disrespectful
to him or undermining him in any way. If you're
exposing your children to truth. And the fact of the
matter is that the the Bible says that we don't
know when Jesus is going to come back. We don't
we don't know. And so, right if he's saying he
(13:18):
can predict it, that's that's very alarming because he's actually
going against the Word of God. And so I don't
know your your children's relationships with the Lord and with
the Bible, but I recommend that you get them, um,
into a meeting with a couple different pastors so that
they can see that, uh, see biblically, and they can
(13:42):
point out biblically exactly why that is, is not something
good to listen to. Um.
S7 (13:51):
So and I did say to them, you know, I
just said, I don't I don't know where this is
coming from. I don't know, you know, you probably should
pray for your dad and, um, that that I can
tell you that the Bible does not support anyone having,
you know, special revelations or any specific dates or things
like that that's not supported biblically. And, um, so, you know,
(14:17):
I didn't know.
S4 (14:18):
Yeah. So you you want to make sure that you
want to bring clarity out of any confusion that they have.
That's the most important thing. And then secondly, I would
I would arm them with some language to use when
their dad starts talking about those different things. So, um,
I don't know his personality, but, you know, you give
(14:40):
neutral answers.
S7 (14:42):
Right? I didn't I didn't know whether they should just
they tend to, you know, just listen and say, oh, okay.
And then, you know, they they feel like it's it's
not right, but they don't want to get into an
argument with him.
S2 (14:58):
Sure.
S7 (14:59):
Um, and so then they come and tell me these
things and, you know, then I'm alarmed.
S4 (15:04):
Yeah. Well, right. And so if they know truth, then
and they've tried to talk to their dad about other
issues or even this issue, and, and he overpowers them
and he doesn't listen, that's actually strengthening his, his resolve
in this. Let's just call it a delusion. And so
(15:25):
it's strengthening his resolve in this. And so confronting him
isn't being loving to him. And it's certainly not being
loving to themselves. So that's where we want to employ
those scriptures. Um.
S7 (15:37):
Right.
S4 (15:38):
Like all those scriptures about what happens when someone is
biblically foolish, they only delight in airing their own opinions
on Proverbs 18 two or Matthew seven six. Don't give
to dogs you know. Don't throw your pearls before swine,
because they'll only trample under their feet or turn and
tear you to pieces. And so you want to just
teach them to say exactly what you said. They were
(16:01):
saying these neutral answers just to keep things calm. And
then if there's anybody that he will listen to that
they are close to as well. You know, maybe those
people can can talk with him so you can take
that step to love him. But um.
S7 (16:20):
But that's but you wouldn't suggest that they. I'm just
a little unclear. Are you saying they should quote scriptures
to him, or that they should just learn this for
themselves so that they know the truth and they don't
buy into, you know, I think it's a little scary
to them on two levels. One, I said, are you
scared of that date now? And or is it that
(16:43):
you're just concerned about your dad? And, um, they Lisa? Well,
kind of both. Yeah. You know.
S1 (16:48):
That makes sense.
S4 (16:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
S7 (16:50):
So I just. Yeah, definitely. I don't want to. Yeah.
S4 (16:54):
Definitely. Get them in front of I would say, uh,
2 or 3 pastors, elders. The more people that can
saturate them with truth, that's the that's the big important
thing so that they are not scared of that date
so that they understand that that that God he's misinterpreting
(17:16):
things that that that is not God telling him about,
that nothing in Scripture supports that. They need to know
that without confusion. They need to be very, very clear
on that. So that's your first goal. Then the second
goal is okay. He he hasn't listened in the past.
So this is his attitude. When people challenge him and
you and you share those scriptures about this is what
(17:37):
happens when this is what God calls being biblically foolish.
So we're not going to confront him because that's just
going to aggravate him. That's going to he's either going
to do nothing good with it, or he's going to
turn and he's going to overpower and try to convince
them that it's true. And so it strengthens his resolve,
and he suffers for that and they suffer for that.
So that's where you use those neutral phrases like, um, okay, dad.
(18:04):
Um hmm. I hadn't heard that. Or. Yeah, it seems like, uh,
that's pretty upsetting. I can see you're getting very upset.
You know what? If that's true, then there's nothing we
can do about it. I don't want to talk about
it right now and shut it down. So you're not
saying it's true. You're. You're just trying. They're just trying
(18:26):
to excuse, excuse themselves from that conversation because it's not
going to be a productive one.
S1 (18:31):
Well, Karen, thank you so much for your question. And
Laurel walking through all of that. That's helpful. The way
that she does this. Yeah. It's fantastic. Let's go to
Mary in Citrus County. Hi, Mary. What's your question for
Laurel this morning? Good morning.
S8 (18:48):
I'm in the process of trying to do exactly what
I'm hearing, her advise. And it's a long marriage that
I'm ending, and it's turned into a family affair of
(19:11):
narcissists against amethysts with children involved. It's mortifying. And the
officers in green let him destroy me and my family.
(19:31):
And I don't know what to do. And yes, I've
started anything I can to combat. You know, this ferociousness
underground type of venom that they're poisonous with? And it's awful.
(19:55):
It's lies and everything. They've disabled me and my family
in every way, and so far they're getting away with it.
And it's difficult, my dear.
S4 (20:09):
Oh, yeah. Mary. Oh my goodness. Just take a few
deep breaths. I would say in the very beginning. This
is awful what you're going through. You need the Holy
Spirit to fill you up with his strength, with his peace,
with his his vision of the future for you. And
(20:30):
so reading promises about what is going to happen when
you draw near to God. He's going to draw near
to you. Um, I actually heard Kurt yesterday morning on
the radio? I don't know. Around 615 I was in
the car and I heard him quoting Psalm 37, 23
(20:50):
and 24 that says, the Lord makes firm the steps
of the one who delights in him. Though he may stumble,
he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with
his hand. And the way the cart said it, you
just could tell that the Holy Spirit was there, and
it touched my heart deeply. I imagine it touched a
lot of other people who were listening at the time.
(21:10):
There is so much power in Scripture, so take a
few deep breaths. Just ingest that scripture and realize that
God is going to take care of you no matter
what you go through. And he is a God of justice. He.
He will stop all of the injustices in his way
and in his time. And so that's what you need
(21:31):
to do.
S9 (21:31):
First thing to do.
S8 (21:32):
Wait, I'm using the message in the wait scripture that
I heard in church about two months ago and the
message was strong. And wait and waiting.
S4 (21:54):
Yeah, wait. Wait on the Lord.
S8 (21:56):
Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Because they don't stop. They won't
let you breathe in between. And process and read and cope,
you know. Yeah.
S4 (22:09):
Yeah. And that's, that's where.
S10 (22:11):
God talks about that wickedness.
S8 (22:13):
The law doesn't help us, my dear.
S4 (22:17):
That's. And you're bringing up a really good point. Yes. It's.
You do need help. You do. You cannot fight this
battle alone. So you need a good counselor. You need
a good counselor that understands coercive control and how controlling
he is and how duplicitous he is, and how he's
using other people to align against you. So you need
(22:39):
a good counselor. You also need if you're filing for divorce.
I can't remember if you said that you were filing
for divorce, but if you are, you are. You need
a really good lawyer. And so it's going to take
some legwork and it's going to take some research. But
you just I recommend paying for an hour of different attorneys,
(23:00):
time to see what they know about personality disorders and
to see what they recommend in your state. And so
it's different in every state. But there are laws to help,
like here in Florida, um, we don't have coercive control laws.
They don't consider that domestic abuse. However, they do things
(23:23):
that if if you are being abused verbally, um, you
can get a no contact, you can get, uh, all
kinds of protective orders in place. And if, if you
choose to let them go because they overpower you, then
Florida actually steps in and reinstates that. So I don't
(23:43):
want you to think the whole legal system will fail you.
It's just going to take a lot of work trying
to find the good ones that that will help you.
S1 (23:51):
So and the.
S4 (23:52):
Lawyers, I recommend calling them a domestic abuse shelter to
see who they refer to, and they can give you
some good information, even if it's not physical abuse.
S1 (24:02):
Yeah.
S2 (24:02):
Casa is in some places. Casa.
S1 (24:05):
Yes. Well, you know what, though? Here's the thing. Um,
we rely primarily on the Lord and, Mary, thank you
so much for being so honest. Obviously, you're you're going
through some really, really hard things right now. Um, and, um,
you're being with us here. The fact you made it
through this morning, maybe we're just doing this hour just
(24:27):
to encourage you. I mean, we hopefully we're encouraging others
who've called in as well, but but I want you
to know that the Lord sees where you are. He
sees your struggle. Uh, you got through on the phones here,
So obviously this is something that, uh, that God has orchestrated.
And sometimes we need the encouragement of others. And it's
(24:47):
not just relying upon the Lord that's primary, but out
of our relying on the Lord. Then he guides us
and he brings people into our lives, and he leads
us every step of the way. So I think we
would all agree as believers, just encouraging you here this morning. Mary,
please press into him. I know it's hard to wait.
(25:09):
I know when your emotions are all over the map.
It's really, really hard. Your feelings are real, but they're
not always true. And you need some help. You need
to reach out to someone who can help you.
S2 (25:23):
Thanks for listening to Kurt and Kate Mornings podcast. Please
take a minute to follow, subscribe and review us. And
no matter where in the world you are, you can
listen to us live from 6 to 9 a.m. weekdays
on the Moody Radio app.
Kurt and Kate mornings. Not just on the radio.
S2 (00:03):
It's a podcast too.
S1 (00:06):
We have so many wonderful people who hang out with
us on a regular basis. Uh, you guys who call
in to the show, uh, call in and text in. Then,
of course, we have some nationally known Christian leaders who
come back and see us and hang out with us
from time to time, and and authors and speakers and
(00:30):
Christian music artists. ET cetera, et cetera. And, uh, we
we are so blessed. I mean, it's it's an embarrassment
of riches when it comes to, uh, the folks who
hang out with us. One of our favorite people is
biblical counselor Laurel Slade Wagner. She paid us a visit, and, uh,
we opened up the phones. And whenever that happens, all
(00:51):
it takes is. Is Laurel's voice. Uh, she takes one call,
and her voice is. You can tell she loves Jesus. Uh,
the people who call in to ask her about relationship issues, um,
they feel seen by her. And because of that, they
feel seen by God. And for those who are struggling
(01:13):
with challenges in their relationships and we open up the phones,
generally speaking, we can't take all of the calls. And
that's a God thing. It really is. And Laurel is
really an expert when it comes to narcissism and all
of that. But she is a she's a board certified
professional Christian counselor who's been practicing in the Tampa Bay
(01:34):
area for more than 17 years. And her book, Don't
Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy About dealing with a
narcissist in your Life, is just it's amazing. We've walked
with her from the very beginning when that book was
just published. I mean, it hadn't been published very long
when we connected with her. So I say all of
that to say this, if you listen to some of
(01:55):
the calls that we received, uh, during this segment with
Laurel recently. Um, if you listen to these, maybe, maybe
God will want to meet you where you are. And
what Laurel has to say to them may be equally
applicable in your own life. So take some time. Kick
(02:15):
back a little bit. Let's dive in. Let's go to
Margie in Winter Haven first. Hi, Margie. What's your question
for Laurel? Thanks for calling.
S3 (02:26):
So I have an issue. I'm new at my job.
I started in, um, in February, and the lady that
sits across from me. First of all, I'm a believer.
I'm a Christian. Um, I don't know if she is, but.
So my thing is that every. I'm watched 24 over seven.
I'm like her. My. She's like my boss's eyes and
(02:48):
ears and, um, she's not a team player. Anything that happens.
Like I said, I just started this job. I'm new
at the job, and she runs to her for everything.
Like if I did something wrong and she and she
saw it instead of coming to me and helping me,
she doesn't. She runs to my boss and my boss
(03:09):
comes to me. I don't know how to handle that
because I, I don't. I went through a lot and
my other job where I suffered for a year and
a half, persecution. Everything that you could think of. And
I don't want to go through that again. And I
need my job. So I need, like, prayer.
S2 (03:29):
Yeah, absolutely. We'll pray for you.
S1 (03:32):
We'll pray for you before we let you go. Okay. So, Laura,
what are you thinking?
S4 (03:35):
Just being a witness to her. And. And maybe you
don't need to use words. You just use strategies with her.
So you reach out to her. You be kind and loving.
You just be yourself. Filled with the Holy Spirit. Then
you start to, you know, asking her once you develop
a relationship with her and and figure out where she's
(03:56):
coming from. you. You ask her. Hey, um. You know,
will you please, if any, if I'm doing anything offensive,
you know, we're we're both working for a common good.
You're trying to realign things so that she sees that
you're on the same side of the battlefield. You're you're
trying to accomplish the same goal. So she just needs
to know that you're for her, not against her. For
(04:19):
whatever reason, she feels this need to tattle like a
child and run to the boss trying to triangulate. But
if you can, try to realign things so you're on
the same side of the battlefield and and kind of
show her that you're working for the common, common good
of the company, and you both want the same things,
then maybe she'll start to reveal her character, let her
(04:43):
guard down, realize you're a safe person. So maybe some
of that that behavior will diminish a bit. Um, if
she continues it, then you got to get some other
eyes on it because you you can't be in that
environment would be too stressful. You'll be walking on eggshells
all the time. So that's where you would employ a
biblical strategy like Matthew 1815 through 17, where the first
(05:07):
step was like I was saying, you go to her directly.
The second step is you get some witnesses involved. And
so all of this is very biblical. You're showing her Christ.
You're showing her biblical ways, even though if she's not
a believer, you're not really telling her that these are
the biblical ways, because that might be offensive to her. Um,
or I don't know your company policy about talking about
(05:29):
Bible verses that at work, but there are things you
can do. And just remember that you are so very
valuable and precious, and you and you were not created
to be treated with diminishment or disrespect. And they're God's
holy word does have all these strategies to help you.
So don't give up hope.
S1 (05:49):
Margie. We're going to pray for you here. Uh, you
have a couple minutes so we can pray for you.
S3 (05:54):
Yes.
S1 (05:54):
Oh. That's great. Okay. Hey, Laura, why don't you lead us?
S4 (05:58):
Oh, heavenly father, I just thank you for Margie. I
thank you for the giftings that you've given her. I
thank you for leading her to this job. Lord, you
know that. She she wants to stay at this job.
I just ask whatever is going on that you you
are allowed in the middle of her relationship with this
very difficult coworker. I ask that truth is revealed. I
(06:21):
ask that you give Margie strength and courage to set
the boundaries that she needs to set so her workplace
can be a source of joy and nourishment. And I
just asked if anyone else is struggling as Margie is struggling, that, um,
that they just get strength and wisdom to so that
they can set the boundaries that they need to set
(06:42):
in their workplace. Lord, and we just love you. And
we just ask all this in the power of your
holy name, Jesus, through the power of your Holy Spirit. Amen.
S2 (06:50):
Amen.
S3 (06:51):
Amen. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
S2 (06:53):
Guys. Thank you. God bless you. Have a good day.
S1 (06:56):
Hang in there. Thank you for praying for Margie. Let's
go to Diane who is joining us this morning from
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Hi, Diane. We're glad you're with us.
What's your question for Laurel?
S5 (07:09):
Yeah. Um, I kind of need to know how I
can be the best spouse I can to a narcissist
who's become blind in the last five, six years. And, uh,
we've been together, you know, over 50.
S4 (07:26):
Wow. And that's a tough one, isn't it? I'm sure
that that your heart is just pulled in so many
different directions because of his disability. But keep in mind
that the two aren't braided together. We're not to overlook
sin and disrespect and and abuse. I don't know what's
going on with him, but we don't overlook those things
(07:49):
just because he's blind. So we. You tell him that
you know this behavior is not acceptable. I love you
and I. I want to be your your soulmate. I
want to be a one flesh with you. But I
can't have these behaviors going on. And so whatever he's
(08:11):
doing that is hurtful, you give him an opportunity, you
speak the truth and love to him, that you're going
to stand by him and you're going to be that spouse,
that you're going to have a marriage after God's own heart.
But he has to participate in that process, too. So
you're not going to overlook all those sinful, disrespectful behavior
just because he's blind. That's not what God wants you
(08:34):
to do. Because God, even though he's blind, God is
just as concerned about his character. Um, even more so
than his blindness. He's concerned about his spiritual blindness. And
so we still take those steps that the Bible talks
about so that we can not enable somebody else's sin
so we can work with God to help that person, uh,
(08:56):
separate themselves from those sins. So God has so many
strategies on what to do. Um, like Kurt mentioned, my
first book, there's a there's a chapter on assertiveness in
there where you can invite him into a plan of change.
So you you want to say those things that I
was just saying, I recommend, um, that you write it
(09:19):
all out, that you read it to them because he's blind.
If you weren't blind, I would say that you give
him the letter, um, so that he can digest the
information in there. Um, and you don't get the brunt
of his reaction, but you're going to say that I
need you to do these things. I need you to
work on these specific behaviors because they can't be part
(09:40):
of our marriage. They can't be part of how we
interact with each other. They're separating you from God. They're
separating me from you. And and you need to separate
from those behaviors. Um, and so you invite him into
a plan of change. If he doesn't, if he won't
agree to that, that's where you start using that redemptive, um,
Scripture Matthew 1815 through 17 which says, if your brother
(10:03):
sins against you, go and work it out just between
the two of you. If you won't listen, you bring
the witnesses. So maybe you go to counseling or go
to a pastor. Um, next step is to take it
to the church. Then the next step would be to
employ that redemptive tool separation. The Bible says treat him
like a pagan or a tax collector, but that's that's
using that tool separation because that's what they did in
(10:25):
that society. So there is help out there. I don't
want you to think that you're the God wants you
to stay stuck and continue to be disrespected and abused
just because he's blind.
S5 (10:37):
Wow. Thank you so much.
S1 (10:40):
Thank you, Diane, very much for calling us and for
listening in Grand Rapids. Thank you for being with us.
S6 (10:47):
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this
episode of the Curtin Mornings podcast. We always welcome a
review with your thoughts and comments, and please feel free
to subscribe and follow us as well.
S1 (10:59):
Let's go next to Karen who is joining us from Orlando.
Hi Karen. Good morning to you.
S7 (11:05):
So my situation is very long term, but I'll make
I'll make a try to make a quick question. Um,
Mary 35 years to, um, someone that has definitely got
full on narcissistic personality disorder. We went to multiple counselors.
ET cetera. ET cetera. But we have four children together.
(11:26):
The youngest are 17.5, and I, they live with me. Um, so,
you know, attempting to co-parent. We are not divorced, just
separated for two years. But the the latest thing and
there's been there's a lot of back and forth with
(11:47):
the trying to co-parent. But the latest thing is that, um,
he is telling my daughters, um, that God is telling
him or somehow he's getting this message that there's going
to be an apocalypse, uh, in July. And, you know,
(12:09):
he's saying he doesn't know if it's a worldwide apocalypse
or a personal. It's just it's very concerning. Um, because it's,
you know, it sounds a little crazy, and I'm just wondering,
you know, how my daughters are 17.5. They're twins. And
(12:30):
so I don't want to be disrespectful to him, but
I want to say the right things to them in
this situation. He's not he's not gone this route before. Um,
I just wondered, like, what might be the right biblical
way to handle the conversation with them about this new,
(12:52):
you know, that thing that he's claiming?
S4 (12:54):
Yeah. That that's so tough. You are not being disrespectful
to him or undermining him in any way. If you're
exposing your children to truth. And the fact of the
matter is that the the Bible says that we don't
know when Jesus is going to come back. We don't
we don't know. And so, right if he's saying he
(13:18):
can predict it, that's that's very alarming because he's actually
going against the Word of God. And so I don't
know your your children's relationships with the Lord and with
the Bible, but I recommend that you get them, um,
into a meeting with a couple different pastors so that
they can see that, uh, see biblically, and they can
(13:42):
point out biblically exactly why that is, is not something
good to listen to. Um.
S7 (13:51):
So and I did say to them, you know, I
just said, I don't I don't know where this is
coming from. I don't know, you know, you probably should
pray for your dad and, um, that that I can
tell you that the Bible does not support anyone having,
you know, special revelations or any specific dates or things
like that that's not supported biblically. And, um, so, you know,
(14:17):
I didn't know.
S4 (14:18):
Yeah. So you you want to make sure that you
want to bring clarity out of any confusion that they have.
That's the most important thing. And then secondly, I would
I would arm them with some language to use when
their dad starts talking about those different things. So, um,
I don't know his personality, but, you know, you give
(14:40):
neutral answers.
S7 (14:42):
Right? I didn't I didn't know whether they should just
they tend to, you know, just listen and say, oh, okay.
And then, you know, they they feel like it's it's
not right, but they don't want to get into an
argument with him.
S2 (14:58):
Sure.
S7 (14:59):
Um, and so then they come and tell me these
things and, you know, then I'm alarmed.
S4 (15:04):
Yeah. Well, right. And so if they know truth, then
and they've tried to talk to their dad about other
issues or even this issue, and, and he overpowers them
and he doesn't listen, that's actually strengthening his, his resolve
in this. Let's just call it a delusion. And so
(15:25):
it's strengthening his resolve in this. And so confronting him
isn't being loving to him. And it's certainly not being
loving to themselves. So that's where we want to employ
those scriptures. Um.
S7 (15:37):
Right.
S4 (15:38):
Like all those scriptures about what happens when someone is
biblically foolish, they only delight in airing their own opinions
on Proverbs 18 two or Matthew seven six. Don't give
to dogs you know. Don't throw your pearls before swine,
because they'll only trample under their feet or turn and
tear you to pieces. And so you want to just
teach them to say exactly what you said. They were
(16:01):
saying these neutral answers just to keep things calm. And
then if there's anybody that he will listen to that
they are close to as well. You know, maybe those
people can can talk with him so you can take
that step to love him. But um.
S7 (16:20):
But that's but you wouldn't suggest that they. I'm just
a little unclear. Are you saying they should quote scriptures
to him, or that they should just learn this for
themselves so that they know the truth and they don't
buy into, you know, I think it's a little scary
to them on two levels. One, I said, are you
scared of that date now? And or is it that
(16:43):
you're just concerned about your dad? And, um, they Lisa? Well,
kind of both. Yeah. You know.
S1 (16:48):
That makes sense.
S4 (16:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
S7 (16:50):
So I just. Yeah, definitely. I don't want to. Yeah.
S4 (16:54):
Definitely. Get them in front of I would say, uh,
2 or 3 pastors, elders. The more people that can
saturate them with truth, that's the that's the big important
thing so that they are not scared of that date
so that they understand that that that God he's misinterpreting
(17:16):
things that that that is not God telling him about,
that nothing in Scripture supports that. They need to know
that without confusion. They need to be very, very clear
on that. So that's your first goal. Then the second
goal is okay. He he hasn't listened in the past.
So this is his attitude. When people challenge him and
you and you share those scriptures about this is what
(17:37):
happens when this is what God calls being biblically foolish.
So we're not going to confront him because that's just
going to aggravate him. That's going to he's either going
to do nothing good with it, or he's going to
turn and he's going to overpower and try to convince
them that it's true. And so it strengthens his resolve,
and he suffers for that and they suffer for that.
So that's where you use those neutral phrases like, um, okay, dad.
(18:04):
Um hmm. I hadn't heard that. Or. Yeah, it seems like, uh,
that's pretty upsetting. I can see you're getting very upset.
You know what? If that's true, then there's nothing we
can do about it. I don't want to talk about
it right now and shut it down. So you're not
saying it's true. You're. You're just trying. They're just trying
(18:26):
to excuse, excuse themselves from that conversation because it's not
going to be a productive one.
S1 (18:31):
Well, Karen, thank you so much for your question. And
Laurel walking through all of that. That's helpful. The way
that she does this. Yeah. It's fantastic. Let's go to
Mary in Citrus County. Hi, Mary. What's your question for
Laurel this morning? Good morning.
S8 (18:48):
I'm in the process of trying to do exactly what
I'm hearing, her advise. And it's a long marriage that
I'm ending, and it's turned into a family affair of
(19:11):
narcissists against amethysts with children involved. It's mortifying. And the
officers in green let him destroy me and my family.
(19:31):
And I don't know what to do. And yes, I've
started anything I can to combat. You know, this ferociousness
underground type of venom that they're poisonous with? And it's awful.
(19:55):
It's lies and everything. They've disabled me and my family
in every way, and so far they're getting away with it.
And it's difficult, my dear.
S4 (20:09):
Oh, yeah. Mary. Oh my goodness. Just take a few
deep breaths. I would say in the very beginning. This
is awful what you're going through. You need the Holy
Spirit to fill you up with his strength, with his peace,
with his his vision of the future for you. And
(20:30):
so reading promises about what is going to happen when
you draw near to God. He's going to draw near
to you. Um, I actually heard Kurt yesterday morning on
the radio? I don't know. Around 615 I was in
the car and I heard him quoting Psalm 37, 23
(20:50):
and 24 that says, the Lord makes firm the steps
of the one who delights in him. Though he may stumble,
he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with
his hand. And the way the cart said it, you
just could tell that the Holy Spirit was there, and
it touched my heart deeply. I imagine it touched a
lot of other people who were listening at the time.
(21:10):
There is so much power in Scripture, so take a
few deep breaths. Just ingest that scripture and realize that
God is going to take care of you no matter
what you go through. And he is a God of justice. He.
He will stop all of the injustices in his way
and in his time. And so that's what you need
(21:31):
to do.
S9 (21:31):
First thing to do.
S8 (21:32):
Wait, I'm using the message in the wait scripture that
I heard in church about two months ago and the
message was strong. And wait and waiting.
S4 (21:54):
Yeah, wait. Wait on the Lord.
S8 (21:56):
Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Because they don't stop. They won't
let you breathe in between. And process and read and cope,
you know. Yeah.
S4 (22:09):
Yeah. And that's, that's where.
S10 (22:11):
God talks about that wickedness.
S8 (22:13):
The law doesn't help us, my dear.
S4 (22:17):
That's. And you're bringing up a really good point. Yes. It's.
You do need help. You do. You cannot fight this
battle alone. So you need a good counselor. You need
a good counselor that understands coercive control and how controlling
he is and how duplicitous he is, and how he's
using other people to align against you. So you need
(22:39):
a good counselor. You also need if you're filing for divorce.
I can't remember if you said that you were filing
for divorce, but if you are, you are. You need
a really good lawyer. And so it's going to take
some legwork and it's going to take some research. But
you just I recommend paying for an hour of different attorneys,
(23:00):
time to see what they know about personality disorders and
to see what they recommend in your state. And so
it's different in every state. But there are laws to help,
like here in Florida, um, we don't have coercive control laws.
They don't consider that domestic abuse. However, they do things
(23:23):
that if if you are being abused verbally, um, you
can get a no contact, you can get, uh, all
kinds of protective orders in place. And if, if you
choose to let them go because they overpower you, then
Florida actually steps in and reinstates that. So I don't
(23:43):
want you to think the whole legal system will fail you.
It's just going to take a lot of work trying
to find the good ones that that will help you.
S1 (23:51):
So and the.
S4 (23:52):
Lawyers, I recommend calling them a domestic abuse shelter to
see who they refer to, and they can give you
some good information, even if it's not physical abuse.
S1 (24:02):
Yeah.
S2 (24:02):
Casa is in some places. Casa.
S1 (24:05):
Yes. Well, you know what, though? Here's the thing. Um,
we rely primarily on the Lord and, Mary, thank you
so much for being so honest. Obviously, you're you're going
through some really, really hard things right now. Um, and, um,
you're being with us here. The fact you made it
through this morning, maybe we're just doing this hour just
(24:27):
to encourage you. I mean, we hopefully we're encouraging others
who've called in as well, but but I want you
to know that the Lord sees where you are. He
sees your struggle. Uh, you got through on the phones here,
So obviously this is something that, uh, that God has orchestrated.
And sometimes we need the encouragement of others. And it's
(24:47):
not just relying upon the Lord that's primary, but out
of our relying on the Lord. Then he guides us
and he brings people into our lives, and he leads
us every step of the way. So I think we
would all agree as believers, just encouraging you here this morning. Mary,
please press into him. I know it's hard to wait.
(25:09):
I know when your emotions are all over the map.
It's really, really hard. Your feelings are real, but they're
not always true. And you need some help. You need
to reach out to someone who can help you.
S2 (25:23):
Thanks for listening to Kurt and Kate Mornings podcast. Please
take a minute to follow, subscribe and review us. And
no matter where in the world you are, you can
listen to us live from 6 to 9 a.m. weekdays
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