December 20, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode of Lab Medicine Rounds, Justin Kreuter, M.D., speaks with education specialist Bob Jackson on the challenges and importance of being a lifelong learner.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Importance of lifelong learning
02:03 Challenges of lifelong learning
06:07 Adapting to change
10:58 Teaching and learning
13:39 Embracing uncertainty
17:00 Encouraging lifelong learning
24:00 New Year's resolutions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
- This is Lab MedicineRounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratoryprofessionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine pathologist
and assistant professorof laboratory Medicine
and pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding with Mr.
Bob Jackson, an instructor inlaboratory medicine pathology
here at Mayo Clinic totalk about the challenge
(00:28):
of being a lifelong learner.
Thanks for joining us today, Mr. Jackson.
- Oh, it's my pleasure. Socool to, to be invited on.
- Absolutely. So, so whatthe audience doesn't know is
that we work together quite,
quite well on the learner side of things.
And, and as somebody whoseheart also goes pitter-patter
(00:51):
for education, I thought thiswould be a really fun way,
you know, as this is our holidayseason episode, you know,
we're going to the new year
and everybody's getting kindof New Year's resolutions
and thinking about how to do things.
You know, this, this idea
of being a lifelonglearner popped in my head.
(01:12):
And I, I wanted to kick offthis conversation with you
by asking like, why, whyis it important to be a,
a lifelong learner?
- Oh, so, you know,when I, when I think of
that question one, I'm like,maybe I was born into it.
My, one of my favoritestories that my mom tells,
I actually don't remember,is first day of kindergarten,
(01:35):
I come home from kindergarten
and my mom's like, Hey,what'd you learn today, buddy?
And I was just like, nothing.All we did was color.
And I just being disappointedwith, I, I was prepared,
I guess, you know, goodparenting, maybe she prepared me
for, you know, thisgreat learning experience
(01:58):
that was gonna be kindergartenand all we did was color.
So shout out to mom,
but, you know, why is it important to be,
'cause things change, you know, medicine,
lab medicine, life changes.
That's, that's why you gottabe ready to learn and adapt.
(02:23):
Could be, you know, all sorts of things.
Like whether your careerchanges, you know, I've had
multiple careers over thecourse of my young life
and things have already changed.
I'm relatively new totransfusion medicine.
(02:44):
I started my career here at Mayo
some 15 years ago now inthe clinical chemistry lab.
Our big core lab was the lastplace I wanted to work at,
or, or any lab.
I did not wanna do chemistry.
So where did I get a job at Mayo?
It was clinical chemistry, you know,
(03:06):
and I quickly discoveredI really enjoyed training,
and so I kind of got moreexperience, tried to,
you know, volunteer wheneverwe had new employees
or students come through, or observers
or path residents, pathologyresidents, and just sit down
and, and like practice it.
(03:28):
And then when an educationspecialist position came up,
I jumped at that
and started teaching chemistry
and just That's awesome. I, yeah.
- I love how you're highlightingfor our listeners, right?
I mean, the students that arelistening can relate to this.
'cause you're, you're talking about how
to think about future proofingyour career, as we all know,
(03:48):
you know, we might have onevision for how things go and,
and we get interested ordifferent opportunities open up.
I think that laboratoryprofessionals absolutely can
relate and understand howwe might move through and,
and also where we might seeour, our career ladders.
And then also clinicianscould be relating to this
(04:08):
as well about thinking abouthow are they future proofing
as, as the clinical area changes.
You know, we talk about lifelong learning
and I think maybe sometimesfor the student listeners,
maybe it sounds a littlebit kind of cliche.
I think absolutely. Forsome of us, you know,
that have been in the gamea while, it's like, oh no,
(04:29):
this is, this is quite important.
I'm curious, what do yousee as the challenges
to lifelong learning thatjust, you know, kind of
are there making it a littlebit difficult each day?
- Yeah, I mean, it, itcould be uncomfortable.
Like you don't know stuff.
(04:51):
Like, and,
and kind of, if you wannaunderstand that you,
that you need to learn something.
If you think you knoweverything, you obviously don't,
but you have to get yourself out of
that Dunning Kruger effect loop and,
and understand that, youknow, I don't know everything.
(05:13):
This is an opportunity to learn.
You know, our example that kind
of came up this week in ourmorning conference, you know,
we're, we're going through ourpatient lists and everything
and talking about howthese patients are doing
and some different testing methodologies
because things are comingfrom different work units
and what that means.
(05:34):
And then, you know,
we're having the learnersdraw it on the board for us.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah.
And we're kind of adding in our 2 cents.
And we had it wrong.
And thankfully we had a polite
and learned colleaguein our midst, shout out
to Corey Dulek.
And, and he was like,you know, you guys, like,
(05:57):
he gently approached us
and, you know, I thinkyou guys have that wrong.
I think this is a common misconception.
And he righted us on it. It was beautiful.
And then to your credit,you latched onto it.
It was like, oh, we gotta learn this.
Like, what a, you know, what,
what parts of this are different?
I immediately, like right
(06:17):
after that meeting was up,ran to the lab that performs
that testing, you know,said, show me the instrument.
Show me what's going onhere. I gotta know this.
Like, it was, it was alittle gift to me yesterday
that I got to go run in there, talk
to the education specialist in the lab
that I knew was a subject matter expert.
And she explained it tome. She pointed it out.
(06:40):
I took some pictures, I ranback to the other people
that were in the room with us.
I was like, guys, this is how it works.
I may have downloadedlike the package insert
and the FDA 5 0 1 clearancefor the, for the instrument
to like, wait, how doesit shake the plate?
And all sort. Yeah. It was a great,
(07:01):
- I think our audience can understand
and appreciate why I asked you to come
and record this podcast.
Right? Because, 'cause oneof the things I want to kind
of bring out into the open, right, you,
you brought up the ideaof the challenge can be,
it can be uncomfortable.
- Absolutely.- And, and certainly I think a lot
of listeners can be like,wow, if I was in a, you know,
a diverse meeting andtalking about something
(07:25):
and somebody, you know, said
that actually I was completely wrong.
And in that case, right,
I was talking about somethingin completely the opposite of
how, what the truth was.
Yeah. You know, me too.
That might make people, youknow, turn red in the face,
feel very embarrassed.
But like you're saying, you,you like grabbed onto that
(07:46):
and took it to a wonderful place, right?
Like, what's that magictrick that you do of like,
it's not about you getting embarrassed.
It's about, oh, here's a gap
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna run with this.
'cause it feels like that'spart of the skills somehow
for a lifelong learner
(08:06):
because I think gapscome up for many of us,
and sometimes it might be like,
and I don't know if it comesfrom education where, you know,
you're getting evaluated
and you're like, oh, I don'twant them to see that gap.
Can you elaborate on likekind of how you, how you take
that in a positive light asopposed to a common challenge
(08:27):
of, of being very embarrassed?
- Hmm. I mean there were,there's a bit of embarrassment
that's always gonna be there.
You know, I, I really think it,it may be something I'm born
with, but, you know, natureversus nurture kind of always
leading on itself.
(08:48):
I, I think I, I have reallyhave always loved curiosity
and love science and exploration,
and I, like, I try to, toinstill that in my child,
ask questions, you know, I'm,
I'm gonna learn something every day
(09:11):
whether I want to or not.
You might as well enjoy it.
You know, it's, it'sdefinitely, I think interacting
with people too really helps,you know, it's, it's fun
for me to go talk tosomebody and learn something
- That actually sparks athought in my mind in that.
(09:32):
Yeah. As I kind of think, Ithink most of my kind of times
where I've realized that Ihave a gap, it's been when I'm
with people versus, I don'tknow, maybe I have a, maybe
that's being human in that when I'm
by myself working on something,
I'm not really catching myassumptions that I'm making
(09:54):
as well as, you know, when I'minteracting with colleagues.
- Absolutely. Nobody'sthere to challenge you or,
or even kind of reflect on the idea
and say like, well,couldn't it be this way?
I know you said it this way,but is it always that way?
Well, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe maybe there are someexceptions to these rules.
(10:16):
I do like to embrace the gray area.
I really shy away from teachinganything as a dichotomy.
And so, you know,
whenever I teach, it's probablyfrustrating to some learners
that, like, I'm, I, I say, Hey,
this is the way it is almost all the time.
(10:37):
It's always X or Y, butguess what Z is out there
and maybe, maybe we know aboutZ and it's just really rare.
Or maybe we don't know anything about Z
and there's QRS and they're way out there
and they're not even in our brains yet.
And in five years, we'll,somebody will discover that
(10:58):
and we'll be like, ohwow, paradigm shifts.
Let's think about new stuff.
- I'm glad you brought up that example,
because I think, again, forour listeners in, in medicine,
like you bring up it, itis a lot of shades of gray.
There's been articleswritten about the skill
(11:20):
of working with uncertainty
and just how that is a, a something
that is generally woven intothe fabric of healthcare.
Can you, and, and as somebody
who knows your scores from your learners
are very high.
I think it's fair to say, you know,
(11:40):
you almost have a followingof, of students that have come
through and worked withyou, Bob, like, can you kind
of share, like, how doyou talk about that gray?
Because like you say,learners who are just,
just first learning theseconcepts, whether it's
immunohematology,clinical chemistry, right?
Like when somebody's justgetting their arms around it,
(12:01):
it seems like, you know,that's the goal is,
and I think a lot of us maybelistening to this podcast,
myself included in some ways,like, we realize the gray, but
because we're dealing witha learner, we might be like,
okay, you know, XY, black, white,
but it, how do you introduce the gray?
(12:21):
- That is a very good one.
It, I really, I,
I put it right there at thefront, which is, which is,
you know, definitely I thinkprobably is frustrating
to some learners.
They're like, Bob, I don't want
to know about the extraneousweird stuff or whatever.
(12:44):
You know, there's a lot of,most and probably and often
and only occasionally
and rares that come into myvoice or into my speaking.
I'm, I, I always avoid never
and never say always.
And so I, I really do try
(13:07):
to present things though as,you know, dichotomous or,
or in good buckets of like known
and these are the things you need to know,
and hey, we're gonnaask you this on an exam,
or you're gonna see thisscenario hop pop out in real
life, so be ready to,
(13:28):
to think about these differentthings that you need to do.
But, you know, sometimesthere's gonna be a weird one
where it's not X or Y, it's Z
and you had to be thinking about it.
And so just always, youknow, come back to the fact
that Z's are out there,they're they're gonna come by.
(13:49):
- One of the things that Istruggle with specifically with
that, and, and you know,maybe this is, you know,
our plight in in pathology,
sometimes I get,
I don't know if it's theright way to say it, is
too curious about the learner's question
(14:10):
about the exception to the rule.
And I have, you know, onoccasion been known to
go out in in left fieldwith them, you know,
maybe more so than isreally helpful for somebody
that's learning the, the how, how do you,
how do you catch yourself, you know,
(14:33):
before like totally nerding out
or how do you do that kindof bringing somebody back
to be like, yeah, it's,it's very interesting,
but you know what you reallyneed to focus on right now.
- Hmm. I'm definitely
guilty of the same sinof, Hey, let's go down
that rabbit hole and chase it until,
(14:54):
until we find another world. And
- I only ask because I, I'mreally working on this in myself
as kind of catching and,
and realizing, you know,it's like we wanna introduce
that shade of gray,
but you know, we also can't get
distracted. That's not the big
- Show.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, what'scoming up in my brain is,
(15:18):
is clinical chemistry stuff.
It's where I've spentmost of my adult life
and it's probably like weird
interferences with different tests.
Those are always really cool
and like a clinical story
that will always capturesomebody's imagination.
(15:39):
And so, you know, that I,I bring those up a lot,
but then I do have to be carefulabout like, well, you know,
all these things caninterfere with this assay
and that's why we got thiscrazy result on this patient
and they were misdiagnosedor treated inappropriately.
(16:00):
There are all these other things
and let's find all thecompounds that also behave
that same way.
Well, you know, maybe let's tamp it down,
just kind of look at, you know, the things
that cause the most common interferences
and, you know, juststore that one weird one
(16:22):
back in your mind.
Save that picture from your cell phone of
that weird colored sample
and put it on your, onyour computer to talk about
as a fun story.
But, you know, youdon't have to talk about
all the crazy interferences,
but it's, it's definitely a,a very tough challenge for me
(16:44):
to, to pair back all those rabbit holes.
- Right. I think it's,maybe there's a little bit
of an honesty in this conversation
about like being a lifelong learner.
There's some of these thingslike curiosity as kind
of probably a, a, a skill
that we can cultivate
(17:05):
and you know, to some extentif we go to an extreme with it,
it can get in the way of other things.
So maybe there's a bit ofan honesty of moderation
that comes out or that I'mhearing in this conversation.
What do you think is, wegot our, our listeners here
and you know, students, clinicians,
laboratory professionals.
(17:27):
What are your thoughts on how we can help
or coach learners tobecome lifelong learners?
And, you know, maybe that'sa little bit, you know,
for ourselves as we're goinginto the new year, I'm looking
for, you know, and how can we kind
of spark these thoughtsin our, in our listeners?
(17:47):
How do you kind of help learnersbecome lifelong learners?
- Yeah, so I think definitelyat the very beginning of,
of connecting with this person and,
and learning with them is let them know
that you're learning too.
You know, they're, they're learning,
but I'm also learning while I'm teaching
(18:09):
and, you know, all these,these little things
that once I've taught it,it like sticks with me
and have them teach you something.
So one of the, the fun things that I do,
or I think it's fun is likeI get learners from all
(18:30):
over the country and all over the world.
And so, like, oftentimes, somy current pathology resident
that I'm training in, she is from Turkey,
and my next door neighbors in
here are also Turkish.
And so I've always dabbled,like in Turkish language,
(18:50):
I have my little Duolingo app on my phone
and play with Turkish.
And I'd actually set itdown a long time ago,
but when I got this pathresident, I picked it back up
and I was like, oh, thisis another opportunity
to practice Turkish.
And so I'm like, Hey, you know, Dr.
Ozcan, show me some, someTurkish here, you know,
(19:11):
how would you use this phrase?
And she's, you know, she getsthese little opportunities
to connect her culture, but,
and she gets to teach me things.
I, you know, it's easy enoughwith learners too to like,
you know, what are your interests?
And you know, I'm teachingyou this transfusion medicine
stuff, but you know, oh, that, that kind
(19:35):
of anatomic pathology isreally interesting to you.
Show me something about it
and just let them know that like,
we're all in this together.
We're all learning.
Having the safe space that,
like in our morning conference
that I think you're veryskilled at, at keeping
(19:55):
that environment safe
and allowing everybody to ask questions
and even, you know, evenif they're a dumb question,
allowing them to, to ask thoseand let's go explore those.
Like we don't, we, we have
to do some work in morning conference,
but also we can push it aside.
(20:16):
We could get that done,you know, after lunch
and let's go explore this new avenue
of curiosity, let 'em do that.
- Oh yeah. Have you,
I'm thinking about when we've kind of over
or run into struggles wheresomebody is maybe I think about,
(20:38):
and to be fair, I'mprobably overgeneralizing,
but if you were to have alearner who is just like
about getting the work done right,
and, you know, they'rejust, they're really good at
that, right?
I can think about learnerslike that where they're,
they're phenomenal aboutgetting the work done,
(20:59):
but sometimes I can beworried about like, are they
really kind of practicing
and developing this skillof lifelong learning
because I see them, they'rejust boom, boom, boom.
How do you kind of approach that? Hmm.
How do you help that personkind of see that, hey, you know,
(21:20):
there's value in maybe taking more time in
particular areas.
- Yeah.- Have you come across that?
- I have come across that,
and I'm trying to, you know, with,
with our kind of careerwhere we are, a lot
of times we're preparingpeople for board exams
(21:41):
and so Yeah.
Yeah, I know you're not gonna be a,
a transfusion medicine doc
or Yeah, yeah, I knowmedical lab students,
you're not gonna workin the transfusion lab,
but hey, this is gonna be on your boards.
It's an easy cop out solution.
(22:02):
Like, you know, that'swhy we're teaching this.
We want you to really succeed at
these sort of things.
Let them know that, youknow, life does change.
You, you may not work in atransfusion medicine lab right
after you graduate
and you may work in a microbiologylab for five or 10 years,
(22:26):
but then the opportunity comeswhere, oh yeah, now you're,
you're gonna have to changeyour, your positioning
to no transfusion medicine,be able to practice it.
So kind of, you know, itdoesn't work just only like
with lab or clinical practice
or, you know, your specialty in pathology.
It's life. You know, I'm from Alabama,
(22:50):
grew up there.
I, you know, thought I wasgonna be a, a roadie for,
for a band for
after high school that fell through.
And so I found myself working construction
in Alabama in the summer andwas like, I need an education.
(23:13):
This is, this is not okay.
And then, you know, from there,
there are just all thesedifferent little changes
and shifts to like, well,
I thought I was gonna docomputer science in school.
And so I did that for a while
and then, oh no, you know, Ifell back in love with biology
and, and science kindof traditional science.
(23:36):
And so thought I was gonna go that way.
My wife needed to change careers
and jobs, so no had to change schools.
And then I just kind offound myself in lab science.
So let let learnersknow that things change.
You know, you, you'regonna, you're gonna have
to adapt whether you wantto or not, so enjoy it. Love
(24:00):
- It.
I hear two things in your answer.
One part is kind ofhighlighting is, you know,
if somebody is not kindof taking the opportunity
of what's coming across the workload, kind
of highlighting why,what is the relevance,
why is this important?
You have to connect that for them.
And I also hear you really kindof connecting us to the top
(24:21):
of this podcast again, about the, the why
this skill is importantfor this lifelong learning
of we're not sure how ourcareers are going to progress.
And honestly, maybe oneof the fun things in life,
it are those unexpected changes that,
that bring all of us together.
- Absolutely.- All right,
(24:43):
I'm gonna put you on thespot here to, to close out.
Bob, do you have New Year's resolutions?
You're, you're thinkingabout in your mind?
- I'm, I'm not a big NewYear's resolution kind of guy.
Okay. I'm always, I'malways evolving. Right on.
Alright. I'm always changing.
(25:03):
- Maybe could you like, you know,
I was hearing about peoplenot having New Year's
resolutions, but have quarterly quests.
Oh yeah. What are you, whatare you kind kind of kick off
for the, for the new year.
What are you looking forward to in 2025?
- You know, there's a big project
that's been hanging over my head that
(25:23):
for the last like three years
that if I do not get donewithin the first quarter,
I just 2025, I'm, I'm gonna, I don't know,
I'll just have to like quit my job
and go work at a gas station or something.
Like I just gotta do it.
So yeah, I'm buckling down after,
(25:45):
after Christmas, then I'm buckling down
and that project has gotta do it.
- Well, I'm bringing you back for
that podcast conversation in the future.
That's another interesting challenge is
how can we work on long-term projects
- Nice.
- When there's so many short-term things
that come up in life.
Absolutely. We've been rounding with Mr.
(26:07):
Bob Jackson discussing the critical skill
of lifelong learning.
Thanks for taking thetime with us today, Bob.
- Absolutely. It's my pleasure.
- And to all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions by emailto MCL education@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed thispodcast, please subscribe
(26:27):
and until our next roundstogether, we encourage you
to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice througheducational conversations.
- This is Lab MedicineRounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratoryprofessionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine pathologist
and assistant professorof laboratory Medicine
and pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding with Mr.
Bob Jackson, an instructor inlaboratory medicine pathology
here at Mayo Clinic totalk about the challenge
(00:28):
of being a lifelong learner.
Thanks for joining us today, Mr. Jackson.
- Oh, it's my pleasure. Socool to, to be invited on.
- Absolutely. So, so whatthe audience doesn't know is
that we work together quite,
quite well on the learner side of things.
And, and as somebody whoseheart also goes pitter-patter
(00:51):
for education, I thought thiswould be a really fun way,
you know, as this is our holidayseason episode, you know,
we're going to the new year
and everybody's getting kindof New Year's resolutions
and thinking about how to do things.
You know, this, this idea
of being a lifelonglearner popped in my head.
(01:12):
And I, I wanted to kick offthis conversation with you
by asking like, why, whyis it important to be a,
a lifelong learner?
- Oh, so, you know,when I, when I think of
that question one, I'm like,maybe I was born into it.
My, one of my favoritestories that my mom tells,
I actually don't remember,is first day of kindergarten,
(01:35):
I come home from kindergarten
and my mom's like, Hey,what'd you learn today, buddy?
And I was just like, nothing.All we did was color.
And I just being disappointedwith, I, I was prepared,
I guess, you know, goodparenting, maybe she prepared me
for, you know, thisgreat learning experience
(01:58):
that was gonna be kindergartenand all we did was color.
So shout out to mom,
but, you know, why is it important to be,
'cause things change, you know, medicine,
lab medicine, life changes.
That's, that's why you gottabe ready to learn and adapt.
(02:23):
Could be, you know, all sorts of things.
Like whether your careerchanges, you know, I've had
multiple careers over thecourse of my young life
and things have already changed.
I'm relatively new totransfusion medicine.
(02:44):
I started my career here at Mayo
some 15 years ago now inthe clinical chemistry lab.
Our big core lab was the lastplace I wanted to work at,
or, or any lab.
I did not wanna do chemistry.
So where did I get a job at Mayo?
It was clinical chemistry, you know,
(03:06):
and I quickly discoveredI really enjoyed training,
and so I kind of got moreexperience, tried to,
you know, volunteer wheneverwe had new employees
or students come through, or observers
or path residents, pathologyresidents, and just sit down
and, and like practice it.
(03:28):
And then when an educationspecialist position came up,
I jumped at that
and started teaching chemistry
and just That's awesome. I, yeah.
- I love how you're highlightingfor our listeners, right?
I mean, the students that arelistening can relate to this.
'cause you're, you're talking about how
to think about future proofingyour career, as we all know,
(03:48):
you know, we might have onevision for how things go and,
and we get interested ordifferent opportunities open up.
I think that laboratoryprofessionals absolutely can
relate and understand howwe might move through and,
and also where we might seeour, our career ladders.
And then also clinicianscould be relating to this
(04:08):
as well about thinking abouthow are they future proofing
as, as the clinical area changes.
You know, we talk about lifelong learning
and I think maybe sometimesfor the student listeners,
maybe it sounds a littlebit kind of cliche.
I think absolutely. Forsome of us, you know,
that have been in the gamea while, it's like, oh no,
(04:29):
this is, this is quite important.
I'm curious, what do yousee as the challenges
to lifelong learning thatjust, you know, kind of
are there making it a littlebit difficult each day?
- Yeah, I mean, it, itcould be uncomfortable.
Like you don't know stuff.
(04:51):
Like, and,
and kind of, if you wannaunderstand that you,
that you need to learn something.
If you think you knoweverything, you obviously don't,
but you have to get yourself out of
that Dunning Kruger effect loop and,
and understand that, youknow, I don't know everything.
(05:13):
This is an opportunity to learn.
You know, our example that kind
of came up this week in ourmorning conference, you know,
we're, we're going through ourpatient lists and everything
and talking about howthese patients are doing
and some different testing methodologies
because things are comingfrom different work units
and what that means.
(05:34):
And then, you know,
we're having the learnersdraw it on the board for us.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah.
And we're kind of adding in our 2 cents.
And we had it wrong.
And thankfully we had a polite
and learned colleaguein our midst, shout out
to Corey Dulek.
And, and he was like,you know, you guys, like,
(05:57):
he gently approached us
and, you know, I thinkyou guys have that wrong.
I think this is a common misconception.
And he righted us on it. It was beautiful.
And then to your credit,you latched onto it.
It was like, oh, we gotta learn this.
Like, what a, you know, what,
what parts of this are different?
I immediately, like right
(06:17):
after that meeting was up,ran to the lab that performs
that testing, you know,said, show me the instrument.
Show me what's going onhere. I gotta know this.
Like, it was, it was alittle gift to me yesterday
that I got to go run in there, talk
to the education specialist in the lab
that I knew was a subject matter expert.
And she explained it tome. She pointed it out.
(06:40):
I took some pictures, I ranback to the other people
that were in the room with us.
I was like, guys, this is how it works.
I may have downloadedlike the package insert
and the FDA 5 0 1 clearancefor the, for the instrument
to like, wait, how doesit shake the plate?
And all sort. Yeah. It was a great,
(07:01):
- I think our audience can understand
and appreciate why I asked you to come
and record this podcast.
Right? Because, 'cause oneof the things I want to kind
of bring out into the open, right, you,
you brought up the ideaof the challenge can be,
it can be uncomfortable.
- Absolutely.- And, and certainly I think a lot
of listeners can be like,wow, if I was in a, you know,
a diverse meeting andtalking about something
(07:25):
and somebody, you know, said
that actually I was completely wrong.
And in that case, right,
I was talking about somethingin completely the opposite of
how, what the truth was.
Yeah. You know, me too.
That might make people, youknow, turn red in the face,
feel very embarrassed.
But like you're saying, you,you like grabbed onto that
(07:46):
and took it to a wonderful place, right?
Like, what's that magictrick that you do of like,
it's not about you getting embarrassed.
It's about, oh, here's a gap
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna run with this.
'cause it feels like that'spart of the skills somehow
for a lifelong learner
(08:06):
because I think gapscome up for many of us,
and sometimes it might be like,
and I don't know if it comesfrom education where, you know,
you're getting evaluated
and you're like, oh, I don'twant them to see that gap.
Can you elaborate on likekind of how you, how you take
that in a positive light asopposed to a common challenge
(08:27):
of, of being very embarrassed?
- Hmm. I mean there were,there's a bit of embarrassment
that's always gonna be there.
You know, I, I really think it,it may be something I'm born
with, but, you know, natureversus nurture kind of always
leading on itself.
(08:48):
I, I think I, I have reallyhave always loved curiosity
and love science and exploration,
and I, like, I try to, toinstill that in my child,
ask questions, you know, I'm,
I'm gonna learn something every day
(09:11):
whether I want to or not.
You might as well enjoy it.
You know, it's, it'sdefinitely, I think interacting
with people too really helps,you know, it's, it's fun
for me to go talk tosomebody and learn something
- That actually sparks athought in my mind in that.
(09:32):
Yeah. As I kind of think, Ithink most of my kind of times
where I've realized that Ihave a gap, it's been when I'm
with people versus, I don'tknow, maybe I have a, maybe
that's being human in that when I'm
by myself working on something,
I'm not really catching myassumptions that I'm making
(09:54):
as well as, you know, when I'minteracting with colleagues.
- Absolutely. Nobody'sthere to challenge you or,
or even kind of reflect on the idea
and say like, well,couldn't it be this way?
I know you said it this way,but is it always that way?
Well, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe maybe there are someexceptions to these rules.
(10:16):
I do like to embrace the gray area.
I really shy away from teachinganything as a dichotomy.
And so, you know,
whenever I teach, it's probablyfrustrating to some learners
that, like, I'm, I, I say, Hey,
this is the way it is almost all the time.
(10:37):
It's always X or Y, butguess what Z is out there
and maybe, maybe we know aboutZ and it's just really rare.
Or maybe we don't know anything about Z
and there's QRS and they're way out there
and they're not even in our brains yet.
And in five years, we'll,somebody will discover that
(10:58):
and we'll be like, ohwow, paradigm shifts.
Let's think about new stuff.
- I'm glad you brought up that example,
because I think, again, forour listeners in, in medicine,
like you bring up it, itis a lot of shades of gray.
There's been articleswritten about the skill
(11:20):
of working with uncertainty
and just how that is a, a something
that is generally woven intothe fabric of healthcare.
Can you, and, and as somebody
who knows your scores from your learners
are very high.
I think it's fair to say, you know,
(11:40):
you almost have a followingof, of students that have come
through and worked withyou, Bob, like, can you kind
of share, like, how doyou talk about that gray?
Because like you say,learners who are just,
just first learning theseconcepts, whether it's
immunohematology,clinical chemistry, right?
Like when somebody's justgetting their arms around it,
(12:01):
it seems like, you know,that's the goal is,
and I think a lot of us maybelistening to this podcast,
myself included in some ways,like, we realize the gray, but
because we're dealing witha learner, we might be like,
okay, you know, XY, black, white,
but it, how do you introduce the gray?
(12:21):
- That is a very good one.
It, I really, I,
I put it right there at thefront, which is, which is,
you know, definitely I thinkprobably is frustrating
to some learners.
They're like, Bob, I don't want
to know about the extraneousweird stuff or whatever.
(12:44):
You know, there's a lot of,most and probably and often
and only occasionally
and rares that come into myvoice or into my speaking.
I'm, I, I always avoid never
and never say always.
And so I, I really do try
(13:07):
to present things though as,you know, dichotomous or,
or in good buckets of like known
and these are the things you need to know,
and hey, we're gonnaask you this on an exam,
or you're gonna see thisscenario hop pop out in real
life, so be ready to,
(13:28):
to think about these differentthings that you need to do.
But, you know, sometimesthere's gonna be a weird one
where it's not X or Y, it's Z
and you had to be thinking about it.
And so just always, youknow, come back to the fact
that Z's are out there,they're they're gonna come by.
(13:49):
- One of the things that Istruggle with specifically with
that, and, and you know,maybe this is, you know,
our plight in in pathology,
sometimes I get,
I don't know if it's theright way to say it, is
too curious about the learner's question
(14:10):
about the exception to the rule.
And I have, you know, onoccasion been known to
go out in in left fieldwith them, you know,
maybe more so than isreally helpful for somebody
that's learning the, the how, how do you,
how do you catch yourself, you know,
(14:33):
before like totally nerding out
or how do you do that kindof bringing somebody back
to be like, yeah, it's,it's very interesting,
but you know what you reallyneed to focus on right now.
- Hmm. I'm definitely
guilty of the same sinof, Hey, let's go down
that rabbit hole and chase it until,
(14:54):
until we find another world. And
- I only ask because I, I'mreally working on this in myself
as kind of catching and,
and realizing, you know,it's like we wanna introduce
that shade of gray,
but you know, we also can't get
distracted. That's not the big
- Show.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, what'scoming up in my brain is,
(15:18):
is clinical chemistry stuff.
It's where I've spentmost of my adult life
and it's probably like weird
interferences with different tests.
Those are always really cool
and like a clinical story
that will always capturesomebody's imagination.
(15:39):
And so, you know, that I,I bring those up a lot,
but then I do have to be carefulabout like, well, you know,
all these things caninterfere with this assay
and that's why we got thiscrazy result on this patient
and they were misdiagnosedor treated inappropriately.
(16:00):
There are all these other things
and let's find all thecompounds that also behave
that same way.
Well, you know, maybe let's tamp it down,
just kind of look at, you know, the things
that cause the most common interferences
and, you know, juststore that one weird one
(16:22):
back in your mind.
Save that picture from your cell phone of
that weird colored sample
and put it on your, onyour computer to talk about
as a fun story.
But, you know, youdon't have to talk about
all the crazy interferences,
but it's, it's definitely a,a very tough challenge for me
(16:44):
to, to pair back all those rabbit holes.
- Right. I think it's,maybe there's a little bit
of an honesty in this conversation
about like being a lifelong learner.
There's some of these thingslike curiosity as kind
of probably a, a, a skill
that we can cultivate
(17:05):
and you know, to some extentif we go to an extreme with it,
it can get in the way of other things.
So maybe there's a bit ofan honesty of moderation
that comes out or that I'mhearing in this conversation.
What do you think is, wegot our, our listeners here
and you know, students, clinicians,
laboratory professionals.
(17:27):
What are your thoughts on how we can help
or coach learners tobecome lifelong learners?
And, you know, maybe that'sa little bit, you know,
for ourselves as we're goinginto the new year, I'm looking
for, you know, and how can we kind
of spark these thoughtsin our, in our listeners?
(17:47):
How do you kind of help learnersbecome lifelong learners?
- Yeah, so I think definitelyat the very beginning of,
of connecting with this person and,
and learning with them is let them know
that you're learning too.
You know, they're, they're learning,
but I'm also learning while I'm teaching
(18:09):
and, you know, all these,these little things
that once I've taught it,it like sticks with me
and have them teach you something.
So one of the, the fun things that I do,
or I think it's fun is likeI get learners from all
(18:30):
over the country and all over the world.
And so, like, oftentimes, somy current pathology resident
that I'm training in, she is from Turkey,
and my next door neighbors in
here are also Turkish.
And so I've always dabbled,like in Turkish language,
(18:50):
I have my little Duolingo app on my phone
and play with Turkish.
And I'd actually set itdown a long time ago,
but when I got this pathresident, I picked it back up
and I was like, oh, thisis another opportunity
to practice Turkish.
And so I'm like, Hey, you know, Dr.
Ozcan, show me some, someTurkish here, you know,
(19:11):
how would you use this phrase?
And she's, you know, she getsthese little opportunities
to connect her culture, but,
and she gets to teach me things.
I, you know, it's easy enoughwith learners too to like,
you know, what are your interests?
And you know, I'm teachingyou this transfusion medicine
stuff, but you know, oh, that, that kind
(19:35):
of anatomic pathology isreally interesting to you.
Show me something about it
and just let them know that like,
we're all in this together.
We're all learning.
Having the safe space that,
like in our morning conference
that I think you're veryskilled at, at keeping
(19:55):
that environment safe
and allowing everybody to ask questions
and even, you know, evenif they're a dumb question,
allowing them to, to ask thoseand let's go explore those.
Like we don't, we, we have
to do some work in morning conference,
but also we can push it aside.
(20:16):
We could get that done,you know, after lunch
and let's go explore this new avenue
of curiosity, let 'em do that.
- Oh yeah. Have you,
I'm thinking about when we've kind of over
or run into struggles wheresomebody is maybe I think about,
(20:38):
and to be fair, I'mprobably overgeneralizing,
but if you were to have alearner who is just like
about getting the work done right,
and, you know, they'rejust, they're really good at
that, right?
I can think about learnerslike that where they're,
they're phenomenal aboutgetting the work done,
(20:59):
but sometimes I can beworried about like, are they
really kind of practicing
and developing this skillof lifelong learning
because I see them, they'rejust boom, boom, boom.
How do you kind of approach that? Hmm.
How do you help that personkind of see that, hey, you know,
(21:20):
there's value in maybe taking more time in
particular areas.
- Yeah.- Have you come across that?
- I have come across that,
and I'm trying to, you know, with,
with our kind of careerwhere we are, a lot
of times we're preparingpeople for board exams
(21:41):
and so Yeah.
Yeah, I know you're not gonna be a,
a transfusion medicine doc
or Yeah, yeah, I knowmedical lab students,
you're not gonna workin the transfusion lab,
but hey, this is gonna be on your boards.
It's an easy cop out solution.
(22:02):
Like, you know, that'swhy we're teaching this.
We want you to really succeed at
these sort of things.
Let them know that, youknow, life does change.
You, you may not work in atransfusion medicine lab right
after you graduate
and you may work in a microbiologylab for five or 10 years,
(22:26):
but then the opportunity comeswhere, oh yeah, now you're,
you're gonna have to changeyour, your positioning
to no transfusion medicine,be able to practice it.
So kind of, you know, itdoesn't work just only like
with lab or clinical practice
or, you know, your specialty in pathology.
It's life. You know, I'm from Alabama,
(22:50):
grew up there.
I, you know, thought I wasgonna be a, a roadie for,
for a band for
after high school that fell through.
And so I found myself working construction
in Alabama in the summer andwas like, I need an education.
(23:13):
This is, this is not okay.
And then, you know, from there,
there are just all thesedifferent little changes
and shifts to like, well,
I thought I was gonna docomputer science in school.
And so I did that for a while
and then, oh no, you know, Ifell back in love with biology
and, and science kindof traditional science.
(23:36):
And so thought I was gonna go that way.
My wife needed to change careers
and jobs, so no had to change schools.
And then I just kind offound myself in lab science.
So let let learnersknow that things change.
You know, you, you'regonna, you're gonna have
to adapt whether you wantto or not, so enjoy it. Love
(24:00):
- It.
I hear two things in your answer.
One part is kind ofhighlighting is, you know,
if somebody is not kindof taking the opportunity
of what's coming across the workload, kind
of highlighting why,what is the relevance,
why is this important?
You have to connect that for them.
And I also hear you really kindof connecting us to the top
(24:21):
of this podcast again, about the, the why
this skill is importantfor this lifelong learning
of we're not sure how ourcareers are going to progress.
And honestly, maybe oneof the fun things in life,
it are those unexpected changes that,
that bring all of us together.
- Absolutely.- All right,
(24:43):
I'm gonna put you on thespot here to, to close out.
Bob, do you have New Year's resolutions?
You're, you're thinkingabout in your mind?
- I'm, I'm not a big NewYear's resolution kind of guy.
Okay. I'm always, I'malways evolving. Right on.
Alright. I'm always changing.
(25:03):
- Maybe could you like, you know,
I was hearing about peoplenot having New Year's
resolutions, but have quarterly quests.
Oh yeah. What are you, whatare you kind kind of kick off
for the, for the new year.
What are you looking forward to in 2025?
- You know, there's a big project
that's been hanging over my head that
(25:23):
for the last like three years
that if I do not get donewithin the first quarter,
I just 2025, I'm, I'm gonna, I don't know,
I'll just have to like quit my job
and go work at a gas station or something.
Like I just gotta do it.
So yeah, I'm buckling down after,
(25:45):
after Christmas, then I'm buckling down
and that project has gotta do it.
- Well, I'm bringing you back for
that podcast conversation in the future.
That's another interesting challenge is
how can we work on long-term projects
- Nice.
- When there's so many short-term things
that come up in life.
Absolutely. We've been rounding with Mr.
(26:07):
Bob Jackson discussing the critical skill
of lifelong learning.
Thanks for taking thetime with us today, Bob.
- Absolutely. It's my pleasure.
- And to all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions by emailto MCL education@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed thispodcast, please subscribe
(26:27):
and until our next roundstogether, we encourage you
to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice througheducational conversations.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.