February 7, 2025 • 18 mins
On this episode of “Lab Medicine Rounds,” Just Kreuter, M.D., chats with Jennifer Boland Froemming, M.D., about creating the perfect rank list for training programs. Dr. Boland Froemming shares her insights and tips to help you make informed decisions.
Discussion Includes:
00:36 How rank lists work.
03:45 What to consider when making a rank list.
06:20 Recommendations for individuals applying to training programs.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (00:07):
This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated
podcast for physicians,laboratory professionals, and
students. I'm your host, JustinKreuter, a transfusion medicine
pathologist and assistantprofessor of laboratory medicine
and pathology at Mayo Clinic.Today, we're rounding with
doctor Jennifer Boland,professor of laboratory medicine
pathology, on how to build yourideal rank list. Thanks to for
(00:31):
joining us today, doctor Boland.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (00:33):
Yes. Thank you for inviting me. Happy
to be here.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (00:36):
So I know this is gonna be a hot topic for
maybe our student listeners tothis podcast. Maybe a little bit
of a trip down memory lane forthe clinicians and and
laboratory professionals perhapsthat have seen kinda match day
and the like go on about. Do youwanna give maybe our audience a
little bit of a background onwhat rank lists are just to kind
(00:59):
of level set everybody?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (01:01):
Sure. So the process of matching medical
students when they're applyingto residency programs is a
complicated process. And it'snot like when you apply to
medical school where you appliedit a bunch of different programs
and then get offers, and thenyou decide kind of which offer
you're going to accept whenthere's wait lists and things.
Instead, what we use is a match.So, basically, what a match is
(01:24):
is a computer system is behindthe scenes trying to match each
candidate with the program thatthey're gonna eventually do
their their residency at.
So the way this works isinterested medical students. You
know, they decide on theirspecialty, and then they start
shopping around for residencyprograms, doing their research,
and trying to decide whatresidency programs they might
(01:46):
want to apply to. And then theyfill out their applications for
these programs. They may beinvited to interview with these
programs. And then all of theprograms that they interview at,
they are asked to rank in theirrank list.
So, essentially, each applicantlists all the programs that they
are interested in matching atand ranks them from 1 to however
(02:07):
many they they interviewed at,and they're not required to list
a program either. So if theyinterviewed somewhere and they
weren't really feeling like itwas a good match for them, they
don't have to list that programat all on their match list, in
which case they will not matchthere. And on the flip side, the
programs are doing the samething. So the programs are
interviewing all these differentinterested medical students for
(02:27):
their positions, And then theycreate a rank list on their side
and rank all of the differentapplicants that they
interviewed, and, essentially,then the computer does the magic
behind the scenes and goesthrough an algorithm and matches
up interested applicants withtheir programs. And I guess I
never really thought that muchabout it when I was a medical
student.
It was just like, this is thewhat we're doing. This is a
(02:48):
match. This is why it happens.And now I'm a fellowship program
director, and our fellowshipactually doesn't have a match.
But for the last few years,we've been using what we have
been calling a common timeline.
So you interview all of yourapplicants during a certain
period, and then you can startoffering all of your positions
on a certain day. And everybodycan consider those offers for a
certain amount of time, and thenyou can move on and offer to the
(03:10):
next applicants if you haveapplicants declining. And now I
totally get why why the matchworks. Because, essentially,
what we're trying to do is,like, a manual match, and it's
an incredible amount of work tokeep track of, you know, which
app where you are in your ranklist, what offers you have out,
how long those offers have beenheld, and those sorts of things.
It's a lot of work to do whenyou try to do it manually.
(03:31):
So, I totally get why the thematch is the way to go.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (03:34):
I'm glad you said that. And honestly, I
am super jealous because intransfusion medicine, we do not
have even a converged timeline.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (03:43):
Yeah.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (03:45):
So so for our our listeners, this is maybe
where I wanna get maybe a littlebit ask a a vulnerable question
to you. If you can kinda pullyourself back in time to when
you were making your originalrank list applying for
residency, how were you thinkingabout that, and what were the
things that you were kind ofconsidering, and and how are you
(04:07):
generally weighting things? And,of course, our listeners, this
is kind of an n of 1, how doctorBoland went about it. But, you
know, if you could kinda justshare maybe what would that that
time was like for you.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (04:19):
Yeah. There's a lot of things,
obviously, that go into eachindividual's decision making
when they're making a rank list,and those things can vary from
the strength of the program, thethe different attributes that
the programs have to offer,where they're located
geographically and where youwanna be, family circumstances,
which sometimes play into thosegeographic desires. So it's can
(04:44):
be a lot to consider, I think. Iactually did a couple's match,
because my husband's aradiologist. So we had a little
bit of a multiple layers ofcomplexity there because we were
considering a couple's match.
It it wasn't just me matching.It was both of us matching
together. So we're essentiallylinked. So we had to find
programs that we were bothinterested in and areas that we
(05:04):
were, both interested in. Forus, we decided that we thought
we wanted to come back to theupper Midwest.
That was one of the things wereally were interested in. And
the other thing that played intoour decision making is at the
time we were at medical schoolat WashU in in Saint Louis, and
(05:25):
they have great programs forboth radiology and pathology. So
we were pretty happy with whatthey had to offer there. So we
would have been probably prettyhappy had we ended up staying
there and matching there in ourprograms. We knew the faculty
there and we're happy.
So we were kind of looking forprograms that would either offer
something different orpotentially get us back into the
(05:48):
geographic area that we weremost interested in. So those
were kind of the factors that wereally thought about. We ended
up basically interviewing at allthe programs in Wisconsin and
Minnesota and not much elsebecause we figured we felt
pretty safe based on theconversations we had with our
home programs at WashU. And andwe're kind of interested though
in in perhaps coming back alittle bit closer to family.
(06:11):
Those were the kind of thingsthat played in.
We interviewed at all of thoseplaces and then ended up making
our lists based on a lot of codecision making and what worked
for both of us.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (06:20):
I'm curious. I wonder if you can
kind of elaborate a little bitfor the listeners. You mentioned
the strength of the program andalso attributes. I'm just kinda
curious for how you came aboutassessing that information. Was
there certain questions that youwere made sure that you were
asking during interviews?
(06:42):
Were there certain things thatyou were able to pull online or
other kinds of resources? Wasthis talking with mentors at
your program as far as thestrength? I'm just trying to get
an idea for maybe the listenersof how to go about some of these
kind of more nebulous aspects.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (07:01):
Yeah. So I think there is a lot of good
information these days about theprograms that they share on
their websites that you can lookat and kind of glean at least
some important curriculuminformation, like how they
structure their curriculum. Forme, I was applying to anatomic
and clinical pathology. So theway that those are integrated
(07:22):
together versus separated outinto more large chunks of time
was a little bit different. And,you know, depending on what was
more appealing, whether it wasmore appealing to you to do some
anatomic pathology and then doall of your clinical pathology
in one chunk, or do it inseveral chunks spread throughout
your AP or have them completelyintermixed.
Those were different when youlooked at different programs.
(07:45):
The the way that they structuredthose sorts of rotations were
different. The way that peoplestructure their both their
clinical and anatomic pathologytraining, can be a little bit
different. I mean, I thinkeverybody wants you to have the
same skills at the end, butthere are many different avenues
to get there. And, hopefully,all roads lead to Rome.
But what appeals to you, how youlearn, how much subspecialty
(08:10):
training you wanted to do in inindividual types of
subspecialty, anatomic pathologyversus more general surgical
pathology, for example, Thosesorts of things are variable
among different programs, andhow how clinical pathology
rotations are scheduled andassessed, how you how they teach
you those things and and howthey assess you on that
learning. That material isvariable. So I think a lot of
(08:32):
that stuff can be gleaned bylooking at the web page. They
usually talk about theircurriculum and their structure
of their curriculum. Of course,these things can change.
So always good if there areparticular things that you're
are really important to youpersonally that you discuss
those with what during yourinterview to make sure that you
have the most up to dateinformation. Advice from mentors
(08:54):
and pathologists is always good.However, I I think sometimes
it's it's somebody's opinion, soyou always have to take those
sorts of things with a grain ofsalt. And unless somebody's
trained at a program or spentsignificant amount of time
there, how much do they reallyknow? Maybe some of it's
hearsay.
So you just wanna, again, seefor yourself, ask your own
(09:15):
questions, do your own research,and I think, you know, talk to
the program leadership and thethe trainees in the program. So
I think that's where theinterview portion really comes
in huge, you know, talking tothe actual trainees that are in
the program, how what they seeis the strengths of the program,
any shortcomings they see, inthe program. And then, again,
with the faculty members talkingthrough anything that's
(09:38):
particularly important ormeaningful to you or things you
don't understand. So I'm talkingthrough those so that you
hopefully have a really goodfeel for what the program is
like, what the place is like,how trainees are feeling about
their own program. I think thoseare really important things to
glean when you're in yourinterview.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (09:55):
Thanks for elaborating on that.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (10:02):
For more laboratory education, including
a listing of conferences,webinars, and on demand content,
visitmayocliniclabs.com/education.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (10:18):
Now here here's, I guess, maybe the I'm
curious how this next questiongoes is how would full professor
doctor Boland today, if you hadto do over again and approach,
how would you do it differentlyat this time?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (10:34):
Yeah. I think overall in general, as I
look back on my early career inin medicine, I perhaps wish that
I had taken a bit more of astretch, more of a reach,
applied to more of those reachprograms, tried some you know,
went out to the coast andinterviewed at at a few programs
just to really see kind of whatthey were about. In retrospect,
I don't think we would have doneanything differently, but I
(10:55):
think it would have been a goodexperience. Of course, there are
things that come into play therethat, in retrospect, I think I
tend to forget. Like, you know,when you have to travel to all
of these interviews, you know,that's comes with some time
burden, financial burden, all ofthese other things, and it just
you get tired, you know, after alot of interviews.
So this is easy for me to say inretrospect. But I do think it
(11:18):
might have been just to not sellmyself short and maybe have
expanded my search a little bitwider when I was looking at
programs. Because you neverknow. You know? You might try
something and go somewhere foran interview and absolutely love
it.
So I think it's always a greatidea to give programs a a chance
if you think that they haveunique characteristics or
something else that you mightfind particularly interesting. I
(11:41):
guess, easy to say inretrospect. I don't know how
practical it was at the time,but maybe I wish I had looked a
little broader.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (11:47):
Maybe if I'm hearing you right, I I also
hear an element of networkingthat goes into the interview
process.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (11:56):
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know,
networking is I don't know. It'sbecome easier over time, but I
thought when I was young andfirst coming into to pathology,
and I didn't know anybody atall. So I think and it feels
hard, and it feels difficult,and it feels a little scary, I
think, at that time. At least itdid for me.
I had to try to establish anetwork of pathologists and kind
(12:17):
of build my community and workmy way into the community and
network. It was hard. It was alittle scary. But I think that
when you go out to interviewplaces, again, you meet a whole
bunch of residents who are gonnabe essentially contemporary with
you, once you're a practicingpathologist someday. And those
people are gonna end up all overthe country.
(12:37):
They're gonna end up in alldifferent specialties of
pathology, and it starts there.You know? And it starts with
meeting program directors,meeting different faculty
members. People do tend toremember you once you meet them
and and they see your face andyou have conversations about
your life. It starts small, butit was it's definitely helpful,
I think, to meet people and justhave a even a brief conversation
(13:00):
with them and get to know them alittle bit.
I think it starts to open thedoor for more ease of of getting
your network built once you'reactually in your specialty.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (13:09):
Right. And so I guess that's a plug for the
student listeners to think aboutthat. You're gonna match
somewhere, and the next timewhen you guys are going to the
UCAP meeting or something likethat, don't be shy. And and if
you had a nice interview withsomebody, walk up and introduce
yourself again.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (13:26):
Yeah. Say hi.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (13:29):
I'm curious about the touching to
faculty, because you know, thereason why this came up as a
podcast for us is a lot of timesI've got students coming in and
asking me about how they think Ishould do their rank list, and
obviously I feel like it's it'stheir rank list. And and so I
try to provide helpfulinformation that I can, and and
(13:51):
I think largely, I'm asking,like, reflective questions.
Yeah. But do you recommend acouple of colleagues to look at
it too, or, like, are youlooking at it then kind of
asking them or just kindasaying, oh, you should also ping
so and so. And does that vary bywhat their interests are?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (14:10):
Yeah. I think I think rank lists are
very personal, very, verypersonal decisions, and no other
person can really understand allof the factors that you're
weighing yourself and and answerthe questions as to, like, what
is most important to you in yourprogram, in your location, and
all of these competingpriorities. Nobody can answer
that for you. So it is a realpersonal decision, and sometimes
(14:33):
it does take some time to thinkand settle on, you know, what
factors are really the mostimportant to me when I'm making
this list. And I think that'ssomething that each candidate
needs to really decide forthemselves.
However, it's always it neverhurts to to get input from
impartial reviewers, if youwill, to run it by a a few
(14:53):
people. I think people that youhaven't established kind of
mentorship relationship with arealways great people to kind of
run this by. And, yes, they mayhave suggestions about, oh, this
person is really familiar withthis program, or they trained
there, or they know you know,they have a lot of contacts
there. Just go talk to them, seewhat they think as you're
finalizing your decision. But atthe same time, you know, it's
(15:16):
it's your rank list.
It's your personal decision. Andso I think asking for advice is
great, but kind of going withyour gut to some degree and what
you really feel is the mostimportant to you is is also
gonna be what's gonna solidifythings in the end.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (15:30):
Awesome. A lot of very kind of empowering
words of wisdom coming from you.Maybe if we can kinda close out
the conversation, the podcasttoday, what are the
recommendations you just wannaput forward and highlight for
the listeners, those that areapplying to training programs
right now. We're gonna beposting this soon, and then
obviously in subsequent years,people will be able to find this
(15:52):
online. What are somerecommendations you wanna just
highlight?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (15:56):
Yeah. So I think do your research. And
when you're doing your research,I think that's a great time to
really think big. You know?Don't limit yourself unless you
actually have decided that it'svery important for me to be in
this geographical area.
It costs you time, but itdoesn't cost you, you know, any
money to travel to an interviewto check out the website, look
at the cool features that mightreally speak to you that
(16:17):
different programs have tooffer. So I do think that first
step of doing your research andreally trying to be thoughtful
about what programs you want toapply to and and thinking about
why you want to apply to thoseprograms is really helpful. And
I don't think there's anysubstitute for putting that kind
of time and thought and work inupfront, but don't sell yourself
short again. So if you think,well, that program's just it's
(16:38):
out of reach for me. Well, howdo you know?
So, you know, read about it.Think about it. It doesn't ever
hurt to apply. And give thoseprograms a a chance to, you
know, actually evaluate you, andyou may end up with a match made
in heaven. Who knows?
So I think that prework isreally important in setting the
stage for your preinterview.Work and research is really
important. And then, yeah, yourinterview's great for
(17:01):
networking. Really pay attentionto how the trainees feel about
their program, how the facultysee the program. Let them tell
you about the strengths andweaknesses of the program as
they see it because I think alot of helpful information can
come from that.
And then when it's time to makeyour list, you know, really do
do some introspection and thinkabout what factors are really
(17:21):
gonna be most important to you,whether they be geographical,
family, and program factors, anddecide how those are all gonna
play out into your rank list.And then wait for match day.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (17:36):
We've been rounding with doctor Jennifer
Boland, talking about creatingyour ideal rank list. Thanks for
joining us today, Dr. Boland.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (17:44):
Thank you for having me.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (17:45):
To all of our listeners, thank you for
joining us today. We invite youto share your thoughts and
suggestions via email tomcleducation@mayo.edu. If you've
enjoyed this podcast, pleasesubscribe. And until our next
rounds together, we encourageyou to to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practicethrough educational
(18:06):
conversations.
This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated
podcast for physicians,laboratory professionals, and
students. I'm your host, JustinKreuter, a transfusion medicine
pathologist and assistantprofessor of laboratory medicine
and pathology at Mayo Clinic.Today, we're rounding with
doctor Jennifer Boland,professor of laboratory medicine
pathology, on how to build yourideal rank list. Thanks to for
(00:31):
joining us today, doctor Boland.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (00:33):
Yes. Thank you for inviting me. Happy
to be here.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (00:36):
So I know this is gonna be a hot topic for
maybe our student listeners tothis podcast. Maybe a little bit
of a trip down memory lane forthe clinicians and and
laboratory professionals perhapsthat have seen kinda match day
and the like go on about. Do youwanna give maybe our audience a
little bit of a background onwhat rank lists are just to kind
(00:59):
of level set everybody?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (01:01):
Sure. So the process of matching medical
students when they're applyingto residency programs is a
complicated process. And it'snot like when you apply to
medical school where you appliedit a bunch of different programs
and then get offers, and thenyou decide kind of which offer
you're going to accept whenthere's wait lists and things.
Instead, what we use is a match.So, basically, what a match is
(01:24):
is a computer system is behindthe scenes trying to match each
candidate with the program thatthey're gonna eventually do
their their residency at.
So the way this works isinterested medical students. You
know, they decide on theirspecialty, and then they start
shopping around for residencyprograms, doing their research,
and trying to decide whatresidency programs they might
(01:46):
want to apply to. And then theyfill out their applications for
these programs. They may beinvited to interview with these
programs. And then all of theprograms that they interview at,
they are asked to rank in theirrank list.
So, essentially, each applicantlists all the programs that they
are interested in matching atand ranks them from 1 to however
(02:07):
many they they interviewed at,and they're not required to list
a program either. So if theyinterviewed somewhere and they
weren't really feeling like itwas a good match for them, they
don't have to list that programat all on their match list, in
which case they will not matchthere. And on the flip side, the
programs are doing the samething. So the programs are
interviewing all these differentinterested medical students for
(02:27):
their positions, And then theycreate a rank list on their side
and rank all of the differentapplicants that they
interviewed, and, essentially,then the computer does the magic
behind the scenes and goesthrough an algorithm and matches
up interested applicants withtheir programs. And I guess I
never really thought that muchabout it when I was a medical
student.
It was just like, this is thewhat we're doing. This is a
(02:48):
match. This is why it happens.And now I'm a fellowship program
director, and our fellowshipactually doesn't have a match.
But for the last few years,we've been using what we have
been calling a common timeline.
So you interview all of yourapplicants during a certain
period, and then you can startoffering all of your positions
on a certain day. And everybodycan consider those offers for a
certain amount of time, and thenyou can move on and offer to the
(03:10):
next applicants if you haveapplicants declining. And now I
totally get why why the matchworks. Because, essentially,
what we're trying to do is,like, a manual match, and it's
an incredible amount of work tokeep track of, you know, which
app where you are in your ranklist, what offers you have out,
how long those offers have beenheld, and those sorts of things.
It's a lot of work to do whenyou try to do it manually.
(03:31):
So, I totally get why the thematch is the way to go.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (03:34):
I'm glad you said that. And honestly, I
am super jealous because intransfusion medicine, we do not
have even a converged timeline.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (03:43):
Yeah.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (03:45):
So so for our our listeners, this is maybe
where I wanna get maybe a littlebit ask a a vulnerable question
to you. If you can kinda pullyourself back in time to when
you were making your originalrank list applying for
residency, how were you thinkingabout that, and what were the
things that you were kind ofconsidering, and and how are you
(04:07):
generally weighting things? And,of course, our listeners, this
is kind of an n of 1, how doctorBoland went about it. But, you
know, if you could kinda justshare maybe what would that that
time was like for you.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (04:19):
Yeah. There's a lot of things,
obviously, that go into eachindividual's decision making
when they're making a rank list,and those things can vary from
the strength of the program, thethe different attributes that
the programs have to offer,where they're located
geographically and where youwanna be, family circumstances,
which sometimes play into thosegeographic desires. So it's can
(04:44):
be a lot to consider, I think. Iactually did a couple's match,
because my husband's aradiologist. So we had a little
bit of a multiple layers ofcomplexity there because we were
considering a couple's match.
It it wasn't just me matching.It was both of us matching
together. So we're essentiallylinked. So we had to find
programs that we were bothinterested in and areas that we
(05:04):
were, both interested in. Forus, we decided that we thought
we wanted to come back to theupper Midwest.
That was one of the things wereally were interested in. And
the other thing that played intoour decision making is at the
time we were at medical schoolat WashU in in Saint Louis, and
(05:25):
they have great programs forboth radiology and pathology. So
we were pretty happy with whatthey had to offer there. So we
would have been probably prettyhappy had we ended up staying
there and matching there in ourprograms. We knew the faculty
there and we're happy.
So we were kind of looking forprograms that would either offer
something different orpotentially get us back into the
(05:48):
geographic area that we weremost interested in. So those
were kind of the factors that wereally thought about. We ended
up basically interviewing at allthe programs in Wisconsin and
Minnesota and not much elsebecause we figured we felt
pretty safe based on theconversations we had with our
home programs at WashU. And andwe're kind of interested though
in in perhaps coming back alittle bit closer to family.
(06:11):
Those were the kind of thingsthat played in.
We interviewed at all of thoseplaces and then ended up making
our lists based on a lot of codecision making and what worked
for both of us.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (06:20):
I'm curious. I wonder if you can
kind of elaborate a little bitfor the listeners. You mentioned
the strength of the program andalso attributes. I'm just kinda
curious for how you came aboutassessing that information. Was
there certain questions that youwere made sure that you were
asking during interviews?
(06:42):
Were there certain things thatyou were able to pull online or
other kinds of resources? Wasthis talking with mentors at
your program as far as thestrength? I'm just trying to get
an idea for maybe the listenersof how to go about some of these
kind of more nebulous aspects.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (07:01):
Yeah. So I think there is a lot of good
information these days about theprograms that they share on
their websites that you can lookat and kind of glean at least
some important curriculuminformation, like how they
structure their curriculum. Forme, I was applying to anatomic
and clinical pathology. So theway that those are integrated
(07:22):
together versus separated outinto more large chunks of time
was a little bit different. And,you know, depending on what was
more appealing, whether it wasmore appealing to you to do some
anatomic pathology and then doall of your clinical pathology
in one chunk, or do it inseveral chunks spread throughout
your AP or have them completelyintermixed.
Those were different when youlooked at different programs.
(07:45):
The the way that they structuredthose sorts of rotations were
different. The way that peoplestructure their both their
clinical and anatomic pathologytraining, can be a little bit
different. I mean, I thinkeverybody wants you to have the
same skills at the end, butthere are many different avenues
to get there. And, hopefully,all roads lead to Rome.
But what appeals to you, how youlearn, how much subspecialty
(08:10):
training you wanted to do in inindividual types of
subspecialty, anatomic pathologyversus more general surgical
pathology, for example, Thosesorts of things are variable
among different programs, andhow how clinical pathology
rotations are scheduled andassessed, how you how they teach
you those things and and howthey assess you on that
learning. That material isvariable. So I think a lot of
(08:32):
that stuff can be gleaned bylooking at the web page. They
usually talk about theircurriculum and their structure
of their curriculum. Of course,these things can change.
So always good if there areparticular things that you're
are really important to youpersonally that you discuss
those with what during yourinterview to make sure that you
have the most up to dateinformation. Advice from mentors
(08:54):
and pathologists is always good.However, I I think sometimes
it's it's somebody's opinion, soyou always have to take those
sorts of things with a grain ofsalt. And unless somebody's
trained at a program or spentsignificant amount of time
there, how much do they reallyknow? Maybe some of it's
hearsay.
So you just wanna, again, seefor yourself, ask your own
(09:15):
questions, do your own research,and I think, you know, talk to
the program leadership and thethe trainees in the program. So
I think that's where theinterview portion really comes
in huge, you know, talking tothe actual trainees that are in
the program, how what they seeis the strengths of the program,
any shortcomings they see, inthe program. And then, again,
with the faculty members talkingthrough anything that's
(09:38):
particularly important ormeaningful to you or things you
don't understand. So I'm talkingthrough those so that you
hopefully have a really goodfeel for what the program is
like, what the place is like,how trainees are feeling about
their own program. I think thoseare really important things to
glean when you're in yourinterview.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (09:55):
Thanks for elaborating on that.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (10:02):
For more laboratory education, including
a listing of conferences,webinars, and on demand content,
visitmayocliniclabs.com/education.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (10:18):
Now here here's, I guess, maybe the I'm
curious how this next questiongoes is how would full professor
doctor Boland today, if you hadto do over again and approach,
how would you do it differentlyat this time?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (10:34):
Yeah. I think overall in general, as I
look back on my early career inin medicine, I perhaps wish that
I had taken a bit more of astretch, more of a reach,
applied to more of those reachprograms, tried some you know,
went out to the coast andinterviewed at at a few programs
just to really see kind of whatthey were about. In retrospect,
I don't think we would have doneanything differently, but I
(10:55):
think it would have been a goodexperience. Of course, there are
things that come into play therethat, in retrospect, I think I
tend to forget. Like, you know,when you have to travel to all
of these interviews, you know,that's comes with some time
burden, financial burden, all ofthese other things, and it just
you get tired, you know, after alot of interviews.
So this is easy for me to say inretrospect. But I do think it
(11:18):
might have been just to not sellmyself short and maybe have
expanded my search a little bitwider when I was looking at
programs. Because you neverknow. You know? You might try
something and go somewhere foran interview and absolutely love
it.
So I think it's always a greatidea to give programs a a chance
if you think that they haveunique characteristics or
something else that you mightfind particularly interesting. I
(11:41):
guess, easy to say inretrospect. I don't know how
practical it was at the time,but maybe I wish I had looked a
little broader.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (11:47):
Maybe if I'm hearing you right, I I also
hear an element of networkingthat goes into the interview
process.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (11:56):
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know,
networking is I don't know. It'sbecome easier over time, but I
thought when I was young andfirst coming into to pathology,
and I didn't know anybody atall. So I think and it feels
hard, and it feels difficult,and it feels a little scary, I
think, at that time. At least itdid for me.
I had to try to establish anetwork of pathologists and kind
(12:17):
of build my community and workmy way into the community and
network. It was hard. It was alittle scary. But I think that
when you go out to interviewplaces, again, you meet a whole
bunch of residents who are gonnabe essentially contemporary with
you, once you're a practicingpathologist someday. And those
people are gonna end up all overthe country.
(12:37):
They're gonna end up in alldifferent specialties of
pathology, and it starts there.You know? And it starts with
meeting program directors,meeting different faculty
members. People do tend toremember you once you meet them
and and they see your face andyou have conversations about
your life. It starts small, butit was it's definitely helpful,
I think, to meet people and justhave a even a brief conversation
(13:00):
with them and get to know them alittle bit.
I think it starts to open thedoor for more ease of of getting
your network built once you'reactually in your specialty.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (13:09):
Right. And so I guess that's a plug for the
student listeners to think aboutthat. You're gonna match
somewhere, and the next timewhen you guys are going to the
UCAP meeting or something likethat, don't be shy. And and if
you had a nice interview withsomebody, walk up and introduce
yourself again.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (13:26):
Yeah. Say hi.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (13:29):
I'm curious about the touching to
faculty, because you know, thereason why this came up as a
podcast for us is a lot of timesI've got students coming in and
asking me about how they think Ishould do their rank list, and
obviously I feel like it's it'stheir rank list. And and so I
try to provide helpfulinformation that I can, and and
(13:51):
I think largely, I'm asking,like, reflective questions.
Yeah. But do you recommend acouple of colleagues to look at
it too, or, like, are youlooking at it then kind of
asking them or just kindasaying, oh, you should also ping
so and so. And does that vary bywhat their interests are?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (14:10):
Yeah. I think I think rank lists are
very personal, very, verypersonal decisions, and no other
person can really understand allof the factors that you're
weighing yourself and and answerthe questions as to, like, what
is most important to you in yourprogram, in your location, and
all of these competingpriorities. Nobody can answer
that for you. So it is a realpersonal decision, and sometimes
(14:33):
it does take some time to thinkand settle on, you know, what
factors are really the mostimportant to me when I'm making
this list. And I think that'ssomething that each candidate
needs to really decide forthemselves.
However, it's always it neverhurts to to get input from
impartial reviewers, if youwill, to run it by a a few
(14:53):
people. I think people that youhaven't established kind of
mentorship relationship with arealways great people to kind of
run this by. And, yes, they mayhave suggestions about, oh, this
person is really familiar withthis program, or they trained
there, or they know you know,they have a lot of contacts
there. Just go talk to them, seewhat they think as you're
finalizing your decision. But atthe same time, you know, it's
(15:16):
it's your rank list.
It's your personal decision. Andso I think asking for advice is
great, but kind of going withyour gut to some degree and what
you really feel is the mostimportant to you is is also
gonna be what's gonna solidifythings in the end.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (15:30):
Awesome. A lot of very kind of empowering
words of wisdom coming from you.Maybe if we can kinda close out
the conversation, the podcasttoday, what are the
recommendations you just wannaput forward and highlight for
the listeners, those that areapplying to training programs
right now. We're gonna beposting this soon, and then
obviously in subsequent years,people will be able to find this
(15:52):
online. What are somerecommendations you wanna just
highlight?
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (15:56):
Yeah. So I think do your research. And
when you're doing your research,I think that's a great time to
really think big. You know?Don't limit yourself unless you
actually have decided that it'svery important for me to be in
this geographical area.
It costs you time, but itdoesn't cost you, you know, any
money to travel to an interviewto check out the website, look
at the cool features that mightreally speak to you that
(16:17):
different programs have tooffer. So I do think that first
step of doing your research andreally trying to be thoughtful
about what programs you want toapply to and and thinking about
why you want to apply to thoseprograms is really helpful. And
I don't think there's anysubstitute for putting that kind
of time and thought and work inupfront, but don't sell yourself
short again. So if you think,well, that program's just it's
(16:38):
out of reach for me. Well, howdo you know?
So, you know, read about it.Think about it. It doesn't ever
hurt to apply. And give thoseprograms a a chance to, you
know, actually evaluate you, andyou may end up with a match made
in heaven. Who knows?
So I think that prework isreally important in setting the
stage for your preinterview.Work and research is really
important. And then, yeah, yourinterview's great for
(17:01):
networking. Really pay attentionto how the trainees feel about
their program, how the facultysee the program. Let them tell
you about the strengths andweaknesses of the program as
they see it because I think alot of helpful information can
come from that.
And then when it's time to makeyour list, you know, really do
do some introspection and thinkabout what factors are really
(17:21):
gonna be most important to you,whether they be geographical,
family, and program factors, anddecide how those are all gonna
play out into your rank list.And then wait for match day.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (17:36):
We've been rounding with doctor Jennifer
Boland, talking about creatingyour ideal rank list. Thanks for
joining us today, Dr. Boland.
Jennifer Boland, M.D. (17:44):
Thank you for having me.
Justin Kreuter, M.D. (17:45):
To all of our listeners, thank you for
joining us today. We invite youto share your thoughts and
suggestions via email tomcleducation@mayo.edu. If you've
enjoyed this podcast, pleasesubscribe. And until our next
rounds together, we encourageyou to to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practicethrough educational
(18:06):
conversations.
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