May 16, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode of "Lab Medicine Rounds," we explore how to navigate the often-tricky terrain of giving and receiving feedback. Join the conversation as we unpack common pitfalls, reframe defensive reactions, and offer practical tools for fostering growth-minded, judgment-free dialogue. Whether you're leading a team or developing your own feedback skills, this episode offers thoughtful insights you can use right away.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated podcast for
physicians, laboratoryprofessionals, and students. I'm
your host, Justin Kreuter, atransfusion medicine
pathologist, assistant professorof laboratory medicine and
pathology at Mayo Clinic. Today,we're joined by doctor Rondell
Graham, professor of laboratorymedicine pathology and anatomic
(00:27):
pathologist at Mayo Clinic inRochester, Minnesota for another
insightful conversation on atopic that's vital to our
development, but not always easyto master, navigating feedback.
So whether you're offeringfeedback, receiving it, figuring
it out how to make itactionable, these moments shape
(00:48):
who we are as professionals andcolleagues. Doctor Graham brings
thoughtful perspective andpractical advice for all of us
to grow more confidently throughfeedback.
Doctor Graham, thanks forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thanks so much for having me, Justin. This is a
really interesting topic. Greatto be here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, close to my heart, and I know you recently
led a workshop about this topicat at USE CAP that was well
received and I think invited foran encore performance. So let's
kick it off. Why is it importantto be thoughtful about feedback
received?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, this is a really great question, Dustin,
and I think it comes down towhat is the value behind
feedback. And so I I would saylet's start with a bit of an
anatomical view because thismight be helpful. You know, your
listeners will probably have areally robust background in
anatomy. As you will know reallywell, as part of our own visual
(01:49):
apparatus, our bill where how wesee, we kind of have a resonant,
and coming out of the resonant,this is the optic nerve. And
it's interesting that by virtueof having that relationship, you
know, that basically, this nerveexiting the optic disc, we
automatically whatever isallowing us to see or transmit
those signals of sight isactually creating for us a blind
(02:11):
spot.
And our brain and the other eyedoes a bit of a complex job so
that we don't perceive that spotwhere the optic nerve is now
transmitting the signals ofsight. And I use that bit of an
anatomical anecdote, as it were,to communicate that we all have
blind spots. By virtue of beingable to see, we have blind
(02:34):
spots. And so why feedback is socrucial is because we're not
seeing the whole picture. Sojust by definition, we're not
seeing the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I really like how you put that. That analogy in my
mind highlights we could bephenomenal individuals, but just
the inherent way that we'rebuilt, we will have blind spots.
There will be feedback that fromthings that we won't see
somebody else will see, and thatcan add value to us. You are in
(03:06):
a leadership position. You haverisen through the ranks.
You have mentored others. Canyou describe for our listeners
maybe one or two challengingsituations that either you or
maybe a colleague that youadvised kind of navigated about
feedback?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
This is a great question, Justin. And I think we
all will be there either asrecipients of or giving a
challenging feedback. I will sayone example that I think I think
a good example that came a fewyears ago, I remember this when
I was in a leadership role. Iwas relatively new to that role.
And one of the things that I hada leadership coach working with
(03:47):
me at the time, and sheemphasized was it's good to get
three sixty feedback, especiallyat these kind of transition
points.
And boy, was she right. One ofthe things that came across when
I collected feedback from peopleon that particular team was that
I needed to be really carefulwith my own extroversion.
Because across that team, manyof the people were more
(04:08):
introverted, and there was asense that they didn't even have
time to process informationbefore I was introducing new
information. And so it felt likealmost like they were out of
breath just trying to keep upand to manage those meetings.
And that was really helpfulbecause while I perceived myself
to have plenty of time andthere'll be plenty of gaps for
(04:30):
input of a processing, it mademe realize that one, that was
not true, certainly not from theperspective of others.
And it gave me at least astarting point to know, come up
with new strategies working withothers who are different from
me, who process informationdifferently. And I think that
that has the skeleton or thebare bones of a lot of value of
(04:52):
feedback. One, I think you haveto be careful about your
assumptions, ask open endedquestions, I'm open to receive
the information, and then kindof respond to that information.
And I think in so doing, one canimprove. And I think that that
certainly improved theperformance of myself, but then
helped the team in terms oftheir performance.
(05:14):
You know, I'm not going too fardown this rabbit trail because
but one of the crucial things ofof leadership, one of the
crucial aspects of leadership isgetting the best out of others.
And so many times as as leaders,people who are responsible to
influence of others, it's notonly about how we wanna conduct
ourselves or how I wanna conductmyself or my own preferences,
but how do I set my preferencesaside to allow the best of
(05:38):
others to come out.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Listening to you describe that, one of the things
that kinda caught my ear was howyou mentioned that it's
important that you kind of areaware of your extravertism. And
that probably for some of thelisteners, they may have
received kind of a similarfeedback where I guess where I'm
(06:01):
drawing the line is, I'm anextrovert. This is who I am.
You're telling me not to bemyself and people really
struggling with receiving thatfeedback. I'm sure you navigated
that well, but how does onereceive that?
Or you've probably seencolleagues get similar feedback
that is kind of seems to get alittle close to the heart. Mhmm.
(06:23):
And how can we be objective,like you mentioned, looking at
the information and make thosecorrective actions?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
This this is a really great question because what
you're you're getting to is howdoes one v one cell without
necessarily creating, I wouldsay, So being authentic, but
also flexible, and I would saymaybe skillful. And then also
navigating feedback kind of ingeneral. So I would say the
(06:52):
first thing is a person who's anextrovert and probably a high
extrovert. The way that it wasshared with me, and I really
love this, is it's a part of thebe yourself, but to be yourself
with skill. And so one of thethings that I have learned there
are a couple of different it'skind of a general approach, but
then there's some specifictactics.
So as a general approach, I tryto distill that when I'm going
(07:13):
to be speaking, what is the coremessage here that I need to get
across, and what's the availabletime? I focus on that main
thing, recognizing there may bemore things to get across.
Another thing I'll do is becauseI am an extrovert, I'm honest
that I'm an extrovert. And sosometimes, depending on the
context, I may have to introducethat and invite the listener or
listeners to be patient as Iwork through my process of
(07:35):
processing that information. SoI think I was being open about
that personality type orpattern, but also distilling it
down to what's most crucial forthis person to hear or receive,
and they may invite you to sharemore.
Or and and sometimes, if youthink it's a if I think it's a
really complex topic, I mightsay, there's more that I can
(07:56):
share on this if there's aninterest or a tie. In terms of
specific tactics, one of thethings that I've learned is that
it's useful to take notes as anextrovert. It I won't say it
distracts me from talking, butit channels that energy that
will go to verbal communicationinto writing. And it gives me
time to process thatinformation, Writing those
(08:16):
doodling, those are both reallyfantastic and identifying key
points that really works well.And another tactic related to
writing, sometimes if you'releading teams or groups, allow
the other team members to sharetheir thoughts, suggestions,
input, and I will take timewriting that.
And in so doing, you're givingsometimes more introverted
(08:36):
people a voice, and you'reactually documenting what they
want to do. And I think that'sreally helpful. So this kind of
idea of channeling some of thattalking into writing. And the
very last thing I'll share isthat I think is really useful.
Provide the backgroundinformation and stuff for
meetings where possible andwhere is your responsibility in
(08:56):
advance.
Because many times, people arequieter. It's not that they
don't have anything to say.Sometimes they're processing
that information. By giving themenough time to process that
information in advance, you canhave a more productive
conversation. So those will besome tips of things I use
general and then three specifictactics.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
For more laboratory education, including a listing
of conferences, webinars, and ondemand content, visit
MayoClinicLabs.com/education.Oh, I I love that. I just
there's a lot of gems there. Ijust wanna highlight, I think
(09:39):
for a lot of us giving feedbackbecause I I've really sometimes
struggled with this givingfeedback that seems to almost
interact with who who somebodyis at their core. But I love the
way that you talk about beingyourself with skill as a key
point.
And then another thing that youmentioned there, another one of
those several gems was justhighlighting the what's this
(10:02):
for, the getting the best out ofothers. And what you're talking
about of this tactic aboutgiving people things ahead of
time or, like, yourself makingyourself take notes so that
you're giving time to others.It's almost like there was a
book a little while ago writtenabout kind of creating an
everybody culture, but you'rereally enabling others to be
(10:22):
more participatory in theleadership that you're
cultivating.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I think you've nailed it there, Justin. And and I
think to one of the pointsyou're bringing up about
feedback that I think is reallyessential is that as we give
people feedback, we wanna givefeedback that is specific. We
wanna give feedback that'sactionable. We wanna give it in
a timely way. And sometimes, forinstance, I'll give you an
example of what might be not behelpful.
(10:47):
So if someone were to say, well,Rondelle, we think things are
going okay or not okay. Theissue here is that you're an
extrovert. Well, the problem isthat there's nothing I can do
about that per se. But I thinkone is really specific to say,
when we have meetings, I don'tbelieve I have enough time to
process the information at onepoint before we transition to
(11:08):
another. That's really specific,and it gives me a lot of clarity
about what to improve.
So I think it's really importantto add that specificity. And
sometimes people there's aScottish proverb. I I know some
people use it here, and I reallylike it. It's for every mile of
road, there's two miles ofbitch. So sometimes it's good to
be really specific about thefeedback, and I would say, I try
(11:30):
to address you're addressing theindividual, but you're not
making personal comments.
So specificity is reallycrucial, and it's really
important for feedback to beactionable and to support a good
outcome for the recipient. Sothings like, you know, you're
doing good or you're doing badare not as helpful. I believe
(11:51):
that we are making greatprogress because of the
documentation you're providing.That's much more clear.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So with that specificity because I know
sometimes we may either givefeedback or feedback may be
received that we may perceive asthat's not accurate or that's
not fair. They don't reallyunderstand. Do you think that
the specificity is kind of theantidote for that? That if you
(12:19):
add that specificity, if youhave that as a core of the
feedback, that can kindamitigate that resistance of
feeling that this isn't fair?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Great question, Justin. And I think you're
right. The specificity helpsbecause a lot of times when
people receive negativefeedback, especially if it's a
bit of a surprise, by beingspecific, by being, you know,
focusing on actions and specificbehaviors, their presence, and
their absence. I think it canground the recipient on what's
(12:50):
fact here. And I will say,because feedback is such a gift,
it's really giving you aperspective, a set of eyes that
you don't have.
I think the recipient and thegiver of feedback is really good
to use this as leaning moment.So the recipient is good to lean
in and understand, okay. Tell metell me more about this. And
this is where the specificity,the specific examples, being
(13:14):
actionable are really helpful.So an example may be related to
what we talked about.
It was extraversion. Anotherexample may be, I think you
present this information reallywell. This actually is pretty
common, but I'm not reallyseeing the data to support it.
So understanding the story, butthe the I'm I'm not seeing the
data or the information to backthe conclusion. That may be
(13:35):
another way of of asking thatquestion.
But, again, by providing thatspecificity, the person knows. I
think another thing to do is toalso begin with stating one's
intent, especially with writtenfeedback, which is really
challenging to navigate becauseof how people read differently.
I think it's useful to be reallyspecific about one's intention.
(13:56):
So my intention in providingthis information is to help you
grow. Or I see lots of potentialin you as a leader, as a
communicator, as a teacher, as aresearcher.
And to get to that goal, there'ssome opportunities that I think
would be good for us to discussor some opportunities that I
think would be good for me toshare. So being really specific
about that intention can reallyhelp.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, that's a great way to set the stage. If I can
go back to an earlier, Jim youdropped for us, you mentioned
about the importance of thisfeedback, particularly 360
degree feedback, so from fromkind of all points from multiple
perspectives at transitionpoints. And so one of the things
I'm really curious about is forour listeners, some of them may
(14:40):
be in training now and, you youknow, they're gonna be
designated to get feedback at atcertain times. But once somebody
graduates from training andthey're in practice, a lot of
that feedback that they may begetting kind of regardless of
the job they may take, thatfeedback often gets rolled back
quite a bit once somebody isdone with training. How should
(15:03):
our listeners navigate feedbackafter formal training?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Well, it's a great question because you're right. A
lot of the structure thatsurrounds us in training, we
move beyond it. And so feedbackis a there's a lot less in
general because the structuredoesn't require it. And so I
think it's really important forus as we transition from from
training to in practice to beintentional about seeking it
(15:28):
out. I think it's useful to havea regular cadence of seeking out
feedback, and I would say whatcan be really helpful, Adam
Grant shared this on LinkedInthis week, is to frame it
oftentimes where you're gonna beproactive as advice.
So ask for advice, and I wouldsay ask advice of people based
on their relative areas ofstrength. So for example, if
someone is a really greatteacher, ask them for advice
(15:50):
about how to improve aspects ofyour teaching and so on and so
forth. So I think it's reallygood to be intentional. I think
it's useful to have feedbackfrom multiple sources, again,
because of this reason of blindspots that we all have. I think
it is useful to take thatfeedback, process it, and as you
(16:11):
make changes based on thatfeedback, to then circle back
and ask that person, how is yourperformance improving or
changing or not?
So I think being reallyintentional about it, having
some asking us over advice thatAdam Grant suggests, and having
a regular cadence, I think, canbe really crucial.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I think your answer is certainly clutch for a lot of
our audience that are inpractice right now. But I I
wanna highlight maybe for ourstudent listeners or trainee
listeners that, you know, whatdoctor Graham is saying,
although I know you're getting alot of feedback right now, very
structured, this idea of seekingout additional people based on
(16:49):
who you are seeing in theirlevel of expertise is really a a
key point, and I I reallyappreciate you mentioning that.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Well, thanks, Justin. There's a lot of value in in
feedback and seeking it out. Andeven the feedback where you
don't understand or you don'tnecessarily agree, having great
clarity, asking for examples cangive you a sense as to whether
this is really useful feedbackthat you don't perceive yet, or
this is feedback that may not beas useful. And, again, looking
(17:20):
for those things, is itspecific? Is it does it have
examples?
Is it actionable? Is it timebound? I've had scenarios
myself, and I'm sure othershave, where people are giving
you feedback for things thatwere years ago. And sometimes
you don't remember it, andthat's like, I I honestly have
no idea. So that happenssometimes, and there's a lot
less that you can do with that.
So, yeah, those are the things Iwas sure about that feedback.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I just wanna transition to one final
question, and it it's kindataking this conversation a
different way. We've so far,we've been talking about what I
think sometimes people call softskills that we all recognize are
very important despite beingcalled soft. They are very
important for our careers anddevelopment. But I am
specifically curious about haveyou come across or do you use
(18:08):
tools? So are there apps?
Are there notebooks? Or or haveyou found certain tools to be
very helpful for making the mostof feedback that you've received
or for your process of givingfeedback?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
This is a great question, Justin. The question
is, are the tools that I use toget the the most out of
feedback? I don't have aspecific tool set per se, but I
will say that I have a process.Mhmm. So what I'm looking for is
what are the behaviors that I'mdoing or not doing, the language
(18:46):
that I'm giving or not giving,so which should come from the
the feedback.
What's the the context aroundit? And then or the or the the
suboptimal effect, And how can Imove from that suboptimal effect
to a better effect or better anbetter outcome? There are some
people who use, like, structuredtools, like, can use the a three
(19:08):
model. So a three, which is fromindustry from, you know,
Japanese industry giants whobasically say you identify the
effect at the current state, andyou work through a structural
process to how do you get tothat better effect. So that's a
tool set that one can use.
What I found with the process isonce I have clarity on what's
the suboptimal outcome of whatare the behaviors tied to that,
(19:29):
I find it useful to process thatwith mentors or advisers, people
who are further along, who haveseen an example of this before,
and get some perspective fromthem on what will be better ways
to approach that situation, thatset of circumstances. So I think
the key takeaways from this isif if people have tools and
(19:49):
you've googled it and you foundone, I think that's great. If
you decide to use the Kaizenmodel or the a three models,
sorry, from industry, I thinkthat will work well. But I think
it's useful as one navigatesfeedback, especially if it's
challenging or in a reallyimportant area. I think it's
useful to be in touch withmentors and advisers to ensure
that you have the rightperspective on how to respond to
(20:13):
that feedback.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
We've been rounding with doctor Rondell Graham on
navigating feedback. Thanks forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining
us today. We invite you to shareyour thoughts and suggestions by
email to mcleducation@mayo.edu.If you've enjoyed this podcast,
please subscribe. And until ournext rounds together, we
encourage you to continue toconnect lab medicine and
clinical practice througheducational conversations.
This is Lab Medicine Rounds, a curated podcast for
physicians, laboratoryprofessionals, and students. I'm
your host, Justin Kreuter, atransfusion medicine
pathologist, assistant professorof laboratory medicine and
pathology at Mayo Clinic. Today,we're joined by doctor Rondell
Graham, professor of laboratorymedicine pathology and anatomic
(00:27):
pathologist at Mayo Clinic inRochester, Minnesota for another
insightful conversation on atopic that's vital to our
development, but not always easyto master, navigating feedback.
So whether you're offeringfeedback, receiving it, figuring
it out how to make itactionable, these moments shape
(00:48):
who we are as professionals andcolleagues. Doctor Graham brings
thoughtful perspective andpractical advice for all of us
to grow more confidently throughfeedback.
Doctor Graham, thanks forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thanks so much for having me, Justin. This is a
really interesting topic. Greatto be here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, close to my heart, and I know you recently
led a workshop about this topicat at USE CAP that was well
received and I think invited foran encore performance. So let's
kick it off. Why is it importantto be thoughtful about feedback
received?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, this is a really great question, Dustin,
and I think it comes down towhat is the value behind
feedback. And so I I would saylet's start with a bit of an
anatomical view because thismight be helpful. You know, your
listeners will probably have areally robust background in
anatomy. As you will know reallywell, as part of our own visual
(01:49):
apparatus, our bill where how wesee, we kind of have a resonant,
and coming out of the resonant,this is the optic nerve. And
it's interesting that by virtueof having that relationship, you
know, that basically, this nerveexiting the optic disc, we
automatically whatever isallowing us to see or transmit
those signals of sight isactually creating for us a blind
(02:11):
spot.
And our brain and the other eyedoes a bit of a complex job so
that we don't perceive that spotwhere the optic nerve is now
transmitting the signals ofsight. And I use that bit of an
anatomical anecdote, as it were,to communicate that we all have
blind spots. By virtue of beingable to see, we have blind
(02:34):
spots. And so why feedback is socrucial is because we're not
seeing the whole picture. Sojust by definition, we're not
seeing the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I really like how you put that. That analogy in my
mind highlights we could bephenomenal individuals, but just
the inherent way that we'rebuilt, we will have blind spots.
There will be feedback that fromthings that we won't see
somebody else will see, and thatcan add value to us. You are in
(03:06):
a leadership position. You haverisen through the ranks.
You have mentored others. Canyou describe for our listeners
maybe one or two challengingsituations that either you or
maybe a colleague that youadvised kind of navigated about
feedback?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
This is a great question, Justin. And I think we
all will be there either asrecipients of or giving a
challenging feedback. I will sayone example that I think I think
a good example that came a fewyears ago, I remember this when
I was in a leadership role. Iwas relatively new to that role.
And one of the things that I hada leadership coach working with
(03:47):
me at the time, and sheemphasized was it's good to get
three sixty feedback, especiallyat these kind of transition
points.
And boy, was she right. One ofthe things that came across when
I collected feedback from peopleon that particular team was that
I needed to be really carefulwith my own extroversion.
Because across that team, manyof the people were more
(04:08):
introverted, and there was asense that they didn't even have
time to process informationbefore I was introducing new
information. And so it felt likealmost like they were out of
breath just trying to keep upand to manage those meetings.
And that was really helpfulbecause while I perceived myself
to have plenty of time andthere'll be plenty of gaps for
(04:30):
input of a processing, it mademe realize that one, that was
not true, certainly not from theperspective of others.
And it gave me at least astarting point to know, come up
with new strategies working withothers who are different from
me, who process informationdifferently. And I think that
that has the skeleton or thebare bones of a lot of value of
(04:52):
feedback. One, I think you haveto be careful about your
assumptions, ask open endedquestions, I'm open to receive
the information, and then kindof respond to that information.
And I think in so doing, one canimprove. And I think that that
certainly improved theperformance of myself, but then
helped the team in terms oftheir performance.
(05:14):
You know, I'm not going too fardown this rabbit trail because
but one of the crucial things ofof leadership, one of the
crucial aspects of leadership isgetting the best out of others.
And so many times as as leaders,people who are responsible to
influence of others, it's notonly about how we wanna conduct
ourselves or how I wanna conductmyself or my own preferences,
but how do I set my preferencesaside to allow the best of
(05:38):
others to come out.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Listening to you describe that, one of the things
that kinda caught my ear was howyou mentioned that it's
important that you kind of areaware of your extravertism. And
that probably for some of thelisteners, they may have
received kind of a similarfeedback where I guess where I'm
(06:01):
drawing the line is, I'm anextrovert. This is who I am.
You're telling me not to bemyself and people really
struggling with receiving thatfeedback. I'm sure you navigated
that well, but how does onereceive that?
Or you've probably seencolleagues get similar feedback
that is kind of seems to get alittle close to the heart. Mhmm.
(06:23):
And how can we be objective,like you mentioned, looking at
the information and make thosecorrective actions?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
This this is a really great question because what
you're you're getting to is howdoes one v one cell without
necessarily creating, I wouldsay, So being authentic, but
also flexible, and I would saymaybe skillful. And then also
navigating feedback kind of ingeneral. So I would say the
(06:52):
first thing is a person who's anextrovert and probably a high
extrovert. The way that it wasshared with me, and I really
love this, is it's a part of thebe yourself, but to be yourself
with skill. And so one of thethings that I have learned there
are a couple of different it'skind of a general approach, but
then there's some specifictactics.
So as a general approach, I tryto distill that when I'm going
(07:13):
to be speaking, what is the coremessage here that I need to get
across, and what's the availabletime? I focus on that main
thing, recognizing there may bemore things to get across.
Another thing I'll do is becauseI am an extrovert, I'm honest
that I'm an extrovert. And sosometimes, depending on the
context, I may have to introducethat and invite the listener or
listeners to be patient as Iwork through my process of
(07:35):
processing that information. SoI think I was being open about
that personality type orpattern, but also distilling it
down to what's most crucial forthis person to hear or receive,
and they may invite you to sharemore.
Or and and sometimes, if youthink it's a if I think it's a
really complex topic, I mightsay, there's more that I can
(07:56):
share on this if there's aninterest or a tie. In terms of
specific tactics, one of thethings that I've learned is that
it's useful to take notes as anextrovert. It I won't say it
distracts me from talking, butit channels that energy that
will go to verbal communicationinto writing. And it gives me
time to process thatinformation, Writing those
(08:16):
doodling, those are both reallyfantastic and identifying key
points that really works well.And another tactic related to
writing, sometimes if you'releading teams or groups, allow
the other team members to sharetheir thoughts, suggestions,
input, and I will take timewriting that.
And in so doing, you're givingsometimes more introverted
(08:36):
people a voice, and you'reactually documenting what they
want to do. And I think that'sreally helpful. So this kind of
idea of channeling some of thattalking into writing. And the
very last thing I'll share isthat I think is really useful.
Provide the backgroundinformation and stuff for
meetings where possible andwhere is your responsibility in
(08:56):
advance.
Because many times, people arequieter. It's not that they
don't have anything to say.Sometimes they're processing
that information. By giving themenough time to process that
information in advance, you canhave a more productive
conversation. So those will besome tips of things I use
general and then three specifictactics.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
For more laboratory education, including a listing
of conferences, webinars, and ondemand content, visit
MayoClinicLabs.com/education.Oh, I I love that. I just
there's a lot of gems there. Ijust wanna highlight, I think
(09:39):
for a lot of us giving feedbackbecause I I've really sometimes
struggled with this givingfeedback that seems to almost
interact with who who somebodyis at their core. But I love the
way that you talk about beingyourself with skill as a key
point.
And then another thing that youmentioned there, another one of
those several gems was justhighlighting the what's this
(10:02):
for, the getting the best out ofothers. And what you're talking
about of this tactic aboutgiving people things ahead of
time or, like, yourself makingyourself take notes so that
you're giving time to others.It's almost like there was a
book a little while ago writtenabout kind of creating an
everybody culture, but you'rereally enabling others to be
(10:22):
more participatory in theleadership that you're
cultivating.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I think you've nailed it there, Justin. And and I
think to one of the pointsyou're bringing up about
feedback that I think is reallyessential is that as we give
people feedback, we wanna givefeedback that is specific. We
wanna give feedback that'sactionable. We wanna give it in
a timely way. And sometimes, forinstance, I'll give you an
example of what might be not behelpful.
(10:47):
So if someone were to say, well,Rondelle, we think things are
going okay or not okay. Theissue here is that you're an
extrovert. Well, the problem isthat there's nothing I can do
about that per se. But I thinkone is really specific to say,
when we have meetings, I don'tbelieve I have enough time to
process the information at onepoint before we transition to
(11:08):
another. That's really specific,and it gives me a lot of clarity
about what to improve.
So I think it's really importantto add that specificity. And
sometimes people there's aScottish proverb. I I know some
people use it here, and I reallylike it. It's for every mile of
road, there's two miles ofbitch. So sometimes it's good to
be really specific about thefeedback, and I would say, I try
(11:30):
to address you're addressing theindividual, but you're not
making personal comments.
So specificity is reallycrucial, and it's really
important for feedback to beactionable and to support a good
outcome for the recipient. Sothings like, you know, you're
doing good or you're doing badare not as helpful. I believe
(11:51):
that we are making greatprogress because of the
documentation you're providing.That's much more clear.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So with that specificity because I know
sometimes we may either givefeedback or feedback may be
received that we may perceive asthat's not accurate or that's
not fair. They don't reallyunderstand. Do you think that
the specificity is kind of theantidote for that? That if you
(12:19):
add that specificity, if youhave that as a core of the
feedback, that can kindamitigate that resistance of
feeling that this isn't fair?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Great question, Justin. And I think you're
right. The specificity helpsbecause a lot of times when
people receive negativefeedback, especially if it's a
bit of a surprise, by beingspecific, by being, you know,
focusing on actions and specificbehaviors, their presence, and
their absence. I think it canground the recipient on what's
(12:50):
fact here. And I will say,because feedback is such a gift,
it's really giving you aperspective, a set of eyes that
you don't have.
I think the recipient and thegiver of feedback is really good
to use this as leaning moment.So the recipient is good to lean
in and understand, okay. Tell metell me more about this. And
this is where the specificity,the specific examples, being
(13:14):
actionable are really helpful.So an example may be related to
what we talked about.
It was extraversion. Anotherexample may be, I think you
present this information reallywell. This actually is pretty
common, but I'm not reallyseeing the data to support it.
So understanding the story, butthe the I'm I'm not seeing the
data or the information to backthe conclusion. That may be
(13:35):
another way of of asking thatquestion.
But, again, by providing thatspecificity, the person knows. I
think another thing to do is toalso begin with stating one's
intent, especially with writtenfeedback, which is really
challenging to navigate becauseof how people read differently.
I think it's useful to be reallyspecific about one's intention.
(13:56):
So my intention in providingthis information is to help you
grow. Or I see lots of potentialin you as a leader, as a
communicator, as a teacher, as aresearcher.
And to get to that goal, there'ssome opportunities that I think
would be good for us to discussor some opportunities that I
think would be good for me toshare. So being really specific
about that intention can reallyhelp.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, that's a great way to set the stage. If I can
go back to an earlier, Jim youdropped for us, you mentioned
about the importance of thisfeedback, particularly 360
degree feedback, so from fromkind of all points from multiple
perspectives at transitionpoints. And so one of the things
I'm really curious about is forour listeners, some of them may
(14:40):
be in training now and, you youknow, they're gonna be
designated to get feedback at atcertain times. But once somebody
graduates from training andthey're in practice, a lot of
that feedback that they may begetting kind of regardless of
the job they may take, thatfeedback often gets rolled back
quite a bit once somebody isdone with training. How should
(15:03):
our listeners navigate feedbackafter formal training?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Well, it's a great question because you're right. A
lot of the structure thatsurrounds us in training, we
move beyond it. And so feedbackis a there's a lot less in
general because the structuredoesn't require it. And so I
think it's really important forus as we transition from from
training to in practice to beintentional about seeking it
(15:28):
out. I think it's useful to havea regular cadence of seeking out
feedback, and I would say whatcan be really helpful, Adam
Grant shared this on LinkedInthis week, is to frame it
oftentimes where you're gonna beproactive as advice.
So ask for advice, and I wouldsay ask advice of people based
on their relative areas ofstrength. So for example, if
someone is a really greatteacher, ask them for advice
(15:50):
about how to improve aspects ofyour teaching and so on and so
forth. So I think it's reallygood to be intentional. I think
it's useful to have feedbackfrom multiple sources, again,
because of this reason of blindspots that we all have. I think
it is useful to take thatfeedback, process it, and as you
(16:11):
make changes based on thatfeedback, to then circle back
and ask that person, how is yourperformance improving or
changing or not?
So I think being reallyintentional about it, having
some asking us over advice thatAdam Grant suggests, and having
a regular cadence, I think, canbe really crucial.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I think your answer is certainly clutch for a lot of
our audience that are inpractice right now. But I I
wanna highlight maybe for ourstudent listeners or trainee
listeners that, you know, whatdoctor Graham is saying,
although I know you're getting alot of feedback right now, very
structured, this idea of seekingout additional people based on
(16:49):
who you are seeing in theirlevel of expertise is really a a
key point, and I I reallyappreciate you mentioning that.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Well, thanks, Justin. There's a lot of value in in
feedback and seeking it out. Andeven the feedback where you
don't understand or you don'tnecessarily agree, having great
clarity, asking for examples cangive you a sense as to whether
this is really useful feedbackthat you don't perceive yet, or
this is feedback that may not beas useful. And, again, looking
(17:20):
for those things, is itspecific? Is it does it have
examples?
Is it actionable? Is it timebound? I've had scenarios
myself, and I'm sure othershave, where people are giving
you feedback for things thatwere years ago. And sometimes
you don't remember it, andthat's like, I I honestly have
no idea. So that happenssometimes, and there's a lot
less that you can do with that.
So, yeah, those are the things Iwas sure about that feedback.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I just wanna transition to one final
question, and it it's kindataking this conversation a
different way. We've so far,we've been talking about what I
think sometimes people call softskills that we all recognize are
very important despite beingcalled soft. They are very
important for our careers anddevelopment. But I am
specifically curious about haveyou come across or do you use
(18:08):
tools? So are there apps?
Are there notebooks? Or or haveyou found certain tools to be
very helpful for making the mostof feedback that you've received
or for your process of givingfeedback?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
This is a great question, Justin. The question
is, are the tools that I use toget the the most out of
feedback? I don't have aspecific tool set per se, but I
will say that I have a process.Mhmm. So what I'm looking for is
what are the behaviors that I'mdoing or not doing, the language
(18:46):
that I'm giving or not giving,so which should come from the
the feedback.
What's the the context aroundit? And then or the or the the
suboptimal effect, And how can Imove from that suboptimal effect
to a better effect or better anbetter outcome? There are some
people who use, like, structuredtools, like, can use the a three
(19:08):
model. So a three, which is fromindustry from, you know,
Japanese industry giants whobasically say you identify the
effect at the current state, andyou work through a structural
process to how do you get tothat better effect. So that's a
tool set that one can use.
What I found with the process isonce I have clarity on what's
the suboptimal outcome of whatare the behaviors tied to that,
(19:29):
I find it useful to process thatwith mentors or advisers, people
who are further along, who haveseen an example of this before,
and get some perspective fromthem on what will be better ways
to approach that situation, thatset of circumstances. So I think
the key takeaways from this isif if people have tools and
(19:49):
you've googled it and you foundone, I think that's great. If
you decide to use the Kaizenmodel or the a three models,
sorry, from industry, I thinkthat will work well. But I think
it's useful as one navigatesfeedback, especially if it's
challenging or in a reallyimportant area. I think it's
useful to be in touch withmentors and advisers to ensure
that you have the rightperspective on how to respond to
(20:13):
that feedback.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
We've been rounding with doctor Rondell Graham on
navigating feedback. Thanks forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining
us today. We invite you to shareyour thoughts and suggestions by
email to mcleducation@mayo.edu.If you've enjoyed this podcast,
please subscribe. And until ournext rounds together, we
encourage you to continue toconnect lab medicine and
clinical practice througheducational conversations.
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