June 9, 2024 • 51 mins
Ready to discover the unexpected joys of a booze-free life? Meet Amy Willis, a powerhouse Holistic Sober Coach, alcohol culture consultant, and LGBTQ+ advocate, on the latest LAF Life Podcast! Amy reveals her biggest surprise benefit of sobriety, shares how she’s transforming beliefs about alcohol that could help you quit for good, and how she’s creating alcohol-free workplaces with her company HOL + WELL. Don’t miss this eye-opening convo!
To find out more about Amy and her coaching business HOL + WELL
Follow her on Instagram: @msamycwillis
JOIN her Facebook Group: HOL + WELL Sober Collective
Find her on LinkedIn: Amy C. Willis, MA, RHC, CLC
or Checkout Amy's Website: holandwell.com
Amy has been kind enough to offer our listeners a 10% discount on Coaching services by using discount code: LAF10
Article Reference in this episode:
Alcohol Raises Heart Disease Risk, Particularly Among Women
https://www.acc.org/About-ACC/Press-Releases/2024/03/28/11/58/alcohol-raises-heart-disease-risk-particularly-among-women#:~:text=Young%20to%20middle%2Daged%20women,of%20Cardiology's%20Annual%20Scientific%20Session.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelly (00:02):
Welcome to the LAF life podcast, a lifestyle podcast
based on living alcohol free anda booze soaked world.
My name is Kelly Evans andtogether with my friends, Tracey
Djordjevic, and Lindsey Harik.
We share uncensored.
Unscripted real conversationsabout what our lives have been
like since we ditched alcoholand how we got here by sharing
(00:24):
our individual stories.
We'll show you that there isn'tjust one way to do this, no
matter where you are on yourjourney from sober, curious to
years in recovery and everyonein between, you are welcome
here, no judgment and a ton ofsupport.
Lindsey (00:40):
Hey everybody, it's Tuesday and that means another
episode of the LAF Life podcast.
If you just hit play, don't goanywhere because we have an
awesome guest for you today.
So it's June and I want to juststart out by saying happy pride
month, everybody.
What an awesome way to celebratediversity and be inclusive and
let's just be nice.
(01:02):
Okay.
Like people are people and humanbeings are human beings and
let's just nice to everybody.
I can't wait to introduce ourvery special guest today.
We are joined by Amy Willis, andshe is a holistic sober coach
for women and LGBTQ plus folkswho want better booze free
lives.
(01:22):
Hi, Amy!
Amy (01:24):
Hi, guys! I'm so excited to be here, and I love the pride
message right off the top.
Lindsey (01:29):
Thank you.
I feel like it's just soimportant.
I was stalking you a little biton social.
And you've been working in therecovery space since 2019.
And sober since 2016.
That's You've got some yearsbehind you.
Amy (01:45):
Yeah, so I'll be celebrating eight sober years in
August, which time flies.
And my company actually justcelebrated its fifth birthday
yesterday.
So
Tracey (01:57):
yeah, congrats.
I saw that on social media.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Lindsey (02:02):
I'm going to talk about your company in a little bit
because I was telling Tracybefore we hit record about your
work as being an alcohol cultureconsultant.
I was like, this blows my mind.
I have to talk to her aboutthis.
I need her to talk to the peopleabout this.
But what we usually do when westart out on a podcast is we go
back to the beginning.
So I want you to talk a littlebit about your struggle with
(02:25):
alcohol addiction.
What did that look like for you?
And how did it impact your life?
Amy (02:31):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I think like many of us, Istarted drinking in my teens and
I started drinking with friendsand peers and it started out.
Socially and experimentally.
But what I can recognize now inreflecting back on my life is
(02:52):
when I started drinking, I wasalso going through a really
traumatic upheaval within myfamily of origin within our
home.
And a lot of what was happeningwas completely out of my
control.
And frankly, I didn't have a lotof healthy coping strategies.
We didn't have a lot of healthyconversations in our home.
And so what was happening to andaround us, we weren't talking
(03:15):
about, we weren't processing andwe weren't dealing with as a
unit or as individuals.
So when I started drinking atthat same time, it immediately
presented itself as escape.
And relief from everything thatwas happening in my life that I
couldn't find relief from in anyother way.
I also grew up in a home wheremy dad struggled with alcohol
(03:38):
addiction.
So alcohol was always presentand very normalized within my
family unit.
And I didn't.
Even really realize until I gotolder and started paying
attention to how other friends,parents consumed alcohol or not,
that the way my dad consumedalcohol was not healthy or
(04:01):
regular.
It was obviously quiteexcessive.
And that was baked into theenvironment.
So it was there.
There was also addiction alreadyrunning in the family.
So I didn't really realize untilmany years later that I was
already primed for addiction ina lot of ways.
Relatively early on in mydrinking days, I started
(04:21):
developing some pretty red flagdrinking behavior.
Like I was hiding it.
I was drinking alone within ayear of starting to drink.
Those things developed prettyrapidly for me.
And because alcohol andaddiction are progressive, I was
drinking more and more both infrequency and in volume and that
(04:45):
just continued on it.
It became something that wasbaked into every aspect of my
life.
And it largely got to the pointwhere, if I couldn't drink at
the thing, whatever the thingwas, I didn't really want to go,
I didn't really want to do it.
And I also, integrated alcoholinto things that don't need
alcohol, like going to themovies or I practice a lot of
(05:07):
yoga and I'm now a yoga teacherat the time I wasn't, but I went
to two really beautiful yogafestivals.
I went to Wanderlust in Montrealor near Montreal many years ago,
and I was drunk the entire time.
And it's those kinds of thingswhere you don't need to be drunk
at a really beautiful, reallyspiritual experience, like a
(05:28):
yoga festival.
And things progressed as theydo.
Externally things looked,despite what I just said about
being drunk at a yoga festival,for the most part, things looked
like they were fine.
My career was progressing.
I had relationships, I traveled,I had a very full life.
I had great friends.
But where I really started tonotice that my own addiction was
(05:51):
really negatively impacting mewas around my mood and mental
health.
Obviously now that I haven'tbeen drinking for many years, I
have a very clear sense of whatmy mental health and mood
baseline is.
But at the time I, I didn't havethat clarity because I'd been
drinking for such a long timeand alcohol is a depressant and
it was very regular.
(06:12):
It was a very regular and commonexperience for me to wake up
after a night of heavy drinking,feeling very indifferent about
whether or not I wanted to live.
And now I can recognize how darka place that is for me, knowing
what I know now.
And I spent a lot of time andspace in that darkness and it
(06:35):
really started to weigh heavilyon me, obviously.
So I would say, that's like howit started, how it ended.
And in terms of, when I startedto question my own drinking.
Lindsey (06:47):
Yeah.
Talk to us about that.
Amy (06:49):
Yeah.
So as I mentioned, like myfather struggled with alcohol
addiction and he unexpectedlypassed as a result of his
drinking
Lindsey (06:59):
Oh my God.
Amy (07:00):
Yeah.
And he and I had a very close,but very complicated
relationship.
And, in my family, it was he andI who struggled with addiction
and nobody else.
After he passed away, notimmediately, my addiction got a
lot worse after he passed awaybecause it was a lot to deal
with as you would expect.
Lindsey (07:19):
For sure.
Amy (07:20):
Yeah.
These questions started poppinginto my head.
I was just like, is this it?
Is this my whole life?
Is this all there is likedrinking excessively blacking
out, being hung over, feelingpretty low and in a dark place
and then rinse and repeat overand over.
Something somewhere along theway just kept poking me and
(07:43):
being like, is this it?
Because this all there is foryou.
I didn't know the answer and Ididn't know what there could be
that wasn't that, but I knewthat there had to be something
else.
And I had this Instinctualknowing that I was supposed to
be doing something differentthan what I was doing.
And I didn't know what it was Ididn't know how to get there,
(08:03):
but I knew that addictioncouldn't be the end of me.
That is when I started to lookdifferently at my relationship
with alcohol.
And also my dad had passed away.
I literally had the blueprint ofwhat my life would look like if
I kept going.
Not to sound dramatic about it,but I didn't want to die.
I didn't want to die early.
(08:24):
I didn't want to cut my lifeshort because I was refusing to
change.
Tracey (08:28):
Did anybody question your drinking, Amy?
Or was anybody else wondering ifyou had a problem or if there
was something wrong?
Amy (08:37):
A few different family members commented over the years
about it.
But what's interesting andbecause, the external looked
good,
Tracey (08:47):
for sure.
Lindsey (08:48):
Yeah.
You know, in my drinking days, Icompleted an undergraduate
degree, I completed a master'sdegree.
I traveled the world.
I interned at the UN, like allkinds of things that look really
great.
And I think there's so muchmisinformation about addiction
and we have very antiquatedunderstandings of what it looks
(09:08):
like.
So if we see someone who,externally it looks like they're
thriving, we might not say Oh,we might want to look at that.
Cause I don't have a DUI and Ididn't go to rehab and I didn't
lose my job.
But I think, we know thatproblematic relationships with
substances take all kinds ofshapes and forms and it isn't
(09:28):
necessarily the most obviousfolks who are struggling, right?
Tracey (09:33):
I think it's interesting what you said about your dad and
his relationship with alcoholbecause my dad was an alcoholic
as well.
And I would say the same,growing up, we didn't know he
was an alcoholic.
I think We didn't see him as analcoholic.
He was a weekend binge drinkerbecause he was a long haul truck
driver.
So he couldn't drink during theweek and he didn't, he was very
(09:54):
disciplined that way, but hewould come home and pretty much
drink from the time he walked inthe door to the time he had to
go back out the door.
And it wasn't until he stoppeddriving truck and he became an
alcoholic.
Every day drinker drinking vodkain the morning and his coffee
that we realized that he had adrinking problem, but in
(10:15):
reality, he always had adrinking problem, again, a
drinking problem or problematicdrinking looks different for
everybody.
So just because he was bingingon the weekends and he could
function during the week withoutit doesn't mean he didn't have a
problem because when he didstart drinking.
He didn't really stop, right?
It was that could never justhave one.
(10:35):
And obviously that's why when hestopped driving truck his
drinking then progressed andgrew into an everyday habit.
But the reality is he was alwaysan alcoholic and always had that
problem.
So I can totally relate to whatyou were saying there with your
dad as well, because Idefinitely had that growing up
too.
Amy (10:55):
Yeah.
And that's hard.
And I'm sorry that was part ofyour experience.
Cause it's hard.
Lindsey (11:01):
I was listening to another podcast and one of the
topics that came up was Yourbeliefs around alcohol, alcohol
and addiction really stems fromwhat you believe alcohol is
doing for you.
For me, when I was drinking, Ithought that was my relief, my
escape, right?
Like I believed you needed it tocelebrate I believed that in
(11:24):
order to get through a divorce.
I needed to have my wine everyweekend to just numb out, reset,
and relax.
Amy, do you think if somebodyworks on their beliefs about
alcohol, that could maybe changetheir relationship with it?
Amy (11:39):
Yes, a thousand percent.
Yes.
And a big part of the work thatI do with clients is around
mindset and beliefs because ourbeliefs shape.
Our actions, they shape ourchoices, they shape largely our
external experiences.
And using what you just said,Lindsay, about like believing
(12:02):
that this was a tool to relax ora way to wind down.
If you believe that to be trueand you really value your
ability to relax and wind down.
Then the thought of takingalcohol out of the equation is
going to threaten those thingsthat you really value, right?
Lindsey (12:18):
It's going to trigger you and cause anxiety.
Amy (12:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Or, and I just mentioned I justtaught a masterclass and it was
on sober socializing buildingconfidence in sobriety and
creating boundaries that supportyou.
we kicked off day one withbeliefs about alcohol because so
many people have such a strongbelief and association that
alcohol equals fun.
Lindsey (12:42):
Exactly.
To socialize it's needed and, weall like socializing,
particularly with the summercoming up there's so many
opportunities to, go to a patio,go to a beach vacations,
barbecues, all of that.
And, we have that association ofalcohol being intermingled and
all those things.
If we believe that alcohol isthe facilitator of fun, and that
(13:07):
we can't have fun without it,taking it out of the equation
it's gonna make it veryunappealing and it's gonna make
it exactly feel like you're notgonna have a good time.
And there's nothing objectivelytrue about that.
Fun is a choice.
We can all have fun exactly atany time doing whatever we're
doing, and it has nothing to dowith alcohol.
But if we believe that alcoholmakes it fun and we can't have
(13:29):
fun without alcohol, then that'sgonna be our reality.
It's like alcohol is say a steakor something a meat eater is
going to be like steak.
I love it.
Can't wait to have it.
So juicy, but a vegan whobelieves differently about
animal cruelty and eating meatis going to look at that steak
and be totally repulsed by itand isn't going to want to touch
(13:51):
it.
So I really like that you do andtouch on this in your coaching,
because I think if we can workon Our beliefs and change the
narrative in our mind.
I think that's the key tochanging our relationship with
alcohol.
And this is for people who arelike the middle path drinkers.
I didn't have an issue where Iwas like a compulsive drinker
(14:14):
and I couldn't control myself.
I wasn't somebody that drankevery single day and had to, and
went through withdrawal if Ididn't have it.
I think that's a little bit.
Of a different kind but I thinkfor the majority of people if we
can work on the beliefs aboutthe substance because really,
when I used to binge drink andblackout and say stupid shit.
(14:35):
Was that really fun?
Because I believed I had funwith alcohol, but when I was
crying in the middle of thedance floor at my sister's
wedding, was that fun?
When I fell and broke mycollarbone and had to have
surgery to repair it because Iwas so drunk on wine at home,
was that fun?
I think if you're Gettinginjured and your relationships
are strained and you're wakingup hungover and you believe you
(14:57):
need alcohol for fun, Ichallenge people to really
question that belief, right?
And it sounds like you'reworking on that.
Amy (15:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have these questions andthey're like really quick.
So maybe I'll share them here,but okay.
Anytime you're investigatingyour beliefs ask is it true?
Like objectively true?
What a group of people lookingat this question all answered in
the same way.
So is it objectively true?
What evidence do you have of itbeing true?
(15:26):
What would be possible if itweren't true?
And there's another one, butwe'll just leave it at that.
To actually just take that stuffapart, because the thing about
beliefs is.
Sometimes they feel like they'refacts because they're so deeply
rooted and they've been therefor a long time and we've
invested a lot in them.
(15:47):
But in a lot of cases we inheritbeliefs from our caregivers.
We believe what they believed tobe true and they inherited from
their caregivers.
So I think taking some time toactually investigate is this
true?
Is this true for me?
What would be possible ifsomething else were true?
Does this belief actually serveme?
(16:07):
I think that can be reallyhelpful.
Even just putting the wholeconversation about Alcohol to
the side for a second what do webelieve to be true about
ourselves?
Do we believe ourselves that, wecan create change if we want, do
we believe a different versionof our lives is possible?
Do we believe we have thecapacity to create something
(16:29):
different?
I think the beliefs pieces isreally foundational in any kind
of change that you're hoping tomake in your life.
Lindsey (16:36):
I love that.
It is so well said and youarticulate it so well.
And I love that you're coaching.
That's the foundation.
Great.
Tracey (16:45):
I think it's just simple questions to Lindsay's point,
asking yourself, was that reallyfun, I know for myself, I made
many decisions when I wasdrinking that were not good for
me that I know if I wasn'tdrinking, I would have never
made.
So I think that's a questiontoo.
If you weren't drinking, wouldyou have done that?
(17:05):
Yes.
If you weren't drinking, wouldyou have made that decision?
Because to me, I always say youneed at least one person in your
life.
That's going to call you out onyour shit and ask you the hard
questions.
And to me, sometimes those arethe hard questions that are
really going to make people digdown to themselves and, push
themselves to answer questionsthat make them feel
(17:28):
uncomfortable.
That they wouldn't otherwiseanswer if someone wasn't pushing
them.
Going with the whole beliefs.
way of thinking is amazing.
I agree with Lindsay.
I think that's a great conceptand a great foundation for what
you're doing when you're workingwith people and coaching them.
Lindsey (17:44):
Amy, you mentioned this a little bit about summer coming
up when we were talkingpreviously here, and I wanted
just to ask you a question pickyour brain for some advice.
Let's maybe talk a little bitabout someone going into their
first sober summer.
What are some little tidbits orlittle nuggets that you can
offer someone who's less thanconfident about, enjoying summer
(18:08):
or summer?
Staying sober for the summerwhen, just like you said,
there's so many opportunities todrink.
Patio season, people are onvacation, we're going to the
lake, there are outdoor concertsand venues and festivals and
alcohol is everywhere.
What can you tell people?
What advice can you give them tohelp them stay on track with
(18:29):
their sobriety journey?
Amy (18:31):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
I would say, setting ourselvesup for success is really
essential.
And there are lots of ways thatwe can do that.
I think what I see and certainlya mistake I made when I got
sober is I didn't have a plan.
I didn't have anything in place.
I was just like, okay I'm notdrinking.
(18:52):
So I'm just going to show up anddo all the same things and just
hope for the best and hope isawesome, but it's not a
strategy.
Yeah, I would say being superintentional.
Before even getting to all thethings, when an invite or
opportunity for somethingsocial.
Comes into your orbit before youanswer, just pause and check in
(19:13):
with yourself.
Do you want to go do you want tohang out with these people?
Do you want to actually do thisthing?
Do you have the energy for it?
How is your stress level?
Where is your capacity rightnow?
So for me, knowing what I knowabout myself, if somebody asks
me to do something on a Fridayevening at, I don't know,
anything after really seveno'clock, My capacity after the
(19:36):
full work week is likerelatively low, so I'm probably
a no on that.
Yeah.
Even if it sounds like a greattime, and so the reason for that
is because when we put ourselvesin situations where our capacity
is low, maybe we're stressed,maybe we're anxious.
Maybe we're really tired.
We're not going to be making thebest decisions that are most
supportive of us.
So I would say before youactually get to anything, check
(19:59):
in with yourself.
Do you want to go, do you wantto be with these people?
Do you want to do the thing?
And if it's a hell yes, on allfronts, then yes, that's a go
ahead, I would say.
And if it's not a hell yes, thenmaybe you pass on that one.
For the stuff that you do decideto go to, I would say bring a
friend, bring a partner, bringsomebody for built in
(20:20):
accountability.
That can be really helpful.
I would also say, have an ideaof when you want to go And when
you want to leave givingyourself full permission to
leave the second you want to,and that might be five minutes
after you get there.
If you're like, not my vibe,that's okay.
I think sometimes we overstay.
(20:42):
And then again, we like get to aplace where, and this is true
for me, I'm tired.
I'm over it.
I'm people though.
And like when we're in that allthe time.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know if that's like apeople pleasing thing or no,
hard
Lindsey (20:56):
times saying no and no boundaries.
Yeah.
Amy (20:59):
Yeah.
So it's just have a sense, justlike map it out for yourself.
I would also say.
Check in with yourselfintermittently.
How are you feeling?
Are you enjoying your time?
Are you enjoying your company?
I would also say plan to bringsomething to drink that you
enjoy drinking.
Don't hope that the host isgoing to have something
enjoyable for you because ifyou're in a social situation and
(21:24):
everybody around you is drinkingwhat you used to drink and you
have a glass of.
tap water in your hand.
It's not, it's not going to beas enjoyable.
It might feel tempting.
And so just like plan, somethingthat you actually really enjoy.
So that might be like an alcoholfree drink, or it might be your
favorite bubbly water or aninfused tea or whatever it is,
(21:47):
but just something that youenjoy.
Consuming that you can have inyour hand so that you don't need
to rely on somebody else.
And, you aren't then just stuckwith water.
And I would also just saylastly, just remembering that
fun is a choice.
Going back to the mindset piece.
Love it.
If you have already decided thatit's not gonna be fun because
(22:10):
you're not drinking, I promiseyou're gonna have a terrible
time.
But if you go in and, it doesn'teven have to be going in with
the attitude that I'm going tohave the best time of my life.
Maybe it's more neutral.
Maybe it's, I'm really open tohaving a good time tonight or
I'm really open to seeing howthis all unfolds.
I can guarantee you're going tohave a better time if you
(22:31):
approach it that way.
And mentally set yourself up inthat way.
Lindsey (22:35):
I love that.
Those are some really tangibleways that, someone can protect
their decision to ditch booze.
And also PSA, you're notresponsible to make everybody
feel comfortable around you.
When you've always been drinkingand you're hanging out with a
group of people that you'vealways been drinking with, you
have to realize that you're theone that's making the decision
now to be different, right?
(22:55):
And that decision doesn't haveto make everybody around you
feel good.
It actually might, be like amirror.
Cause, I used to find, and maybethis was your experience too, I
used to find that when I said,no thanks, people then would be
like, oh, and then they wouldstart to tell me I only drink,
on Saturday nights and I'm likeI didn't question that.
I didn't ask you that and Idon't need to know about it.
(23:18):
That's cool.
You do you, but I think we startto then become mirrors to people
somehow.
And they start to project theirrelationship onto you.
And then, you might feel like,oh my gosh, I'm uncomfortable
and I'm making them feeluncomfortable.
I feel I'm so far into it nowand outside of the jar that I
can now read the label and belike, Oh, I get it.
(23:40):
I have the confidence andpractice.
I think we talked about that onanother podcast, practice the
saying the no, and then youbuild confidence.
Right.
Amy (23:50):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I would also say for folkshave some responses in your back
pocket.
Don't be in the moment in realtime, trying to figure out how
you want to communicate thatyou're not drinking, just like a
few things in your back pocket.
And again, you don't need toover explain it.
You don't need to explainanything to anybody.
It can be as simple as I'm notdrinking or no, thanks.
(24:12):
I'm good with what I have.
But have them in your backpocket, practice them out loud.
Practice them in front of themirror, if that helps because,
by the time you've said it 20times, you're going to feel a
lot better about saying itcompared to the first or second.
And you can do that.
You can practice anytime.
Yeah.
So practicing.
Yes.
Tracey (24:31):
I think that advice that you started with there, Amy, is
good for anybody in anysituation.
We should all be doing that selfanalysis before we decide to do
anything.
Like when I think about,situations even now for myself,
and sometimes the things youcommit to, I know that there was
a point for me where I justreally had to do that re
(24:53):
evaluation of, Is this where Iwant to go?
Is this the people I want tospend my time with?
And I think even after drinkingor not, you should be asking
yourself those questions whenyou commit to social situations,
right?
Amy (25:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know if thisactually I do know, I think it's
probably part of like ourconditioning as girls and women
is to say yes.
And to be accommodating and tomake other people feel
comfortable and make them feelgood.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and I think that also goeshand in hand with changing your
relationship to alcohol.
(25:27):
There's just so much, whetherit's like externally
communicated pressure or notit's all there.
And so I think actually juststepping into our power and
being like, actually, no, Idon't want to go to that thing.
And no, I don't want to drink.
I think there's good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's bold and it's powerfuland it's awesome.
(25:49):
And counterculture and anyway,that could be a whole other
podcast episode.
Lindsey (25:54):
Totally agree with you.
It's that confidence piece,right?
That confidence piece that youstart to build over time.
Totally.
I wanted to ask you a reallyimportant question.
Because I feel like you withyour coaching and everything,
you're going to probably havesome observations on this.
As your experience strugglingwith addiction and someone who
(26:17):
identifies as queer, and you'reworking a lot with women and the
LGBTQ plus community, which isamazing.
I wanted to know, what are yourobservations within these
groups, women, LGBTQ are therates of substance use higher?
Amy (26:35):
Yeah, so definitely within the queer community and by a
pretty significant margin.
Within the queer community,there's a lot of diversity.
So if we were looking even morespecifically, like we see
amongst trans folks, higherrates of mental health issues,
higher rates of addiction,higher rates of suicidal
ideation and all of it.
(26:57):
Yeah.
I think it's very interesting.
Obviously as a woman and as aqueer woman and as a sober woman
and somebody who struggled withaddiction, that is my own lived
experience.
What I can say for sure is thequeer community, particularly at
this time of year.
So keep your eyes peeled for it,you'll see it.
The queer community is very muchtargeted by alcohol companies.
(27:19):
Because as a group, as acollective, there are higher
rates of substance use issues.
And so there is a lot more moneyat this time of year, especially
for alcohol companies to make alot more money because they make
the most money off the heaviestdrinkers.
Yeah.
And there is a lot of veryspecific targeting of the queer
(27:39):
community.
If you go to any pridecelebrations, count the number
of alcohol companies who arethere as sponsors.
I was Yeah.
And they positioned themselvesas allies and as like supporters
of the community and it's justlike you were, you wouldn't be
here because what you'reactually doing is peddling a
(28:00):
very addictive, very poisonous,toxic substance to folks who are
already struggling with it.
And alcohol companies in.
Different ways, but in the samekind of predatory, manipulative
way also target women.
So women, historically it usedto be illegal for women to drink
(28:20):
in public.
It used to be illegal for womento be in bars and all of that
kind of thing.
Even though that was rooted in.
Sexism and misogyny.
It was actually a protectivefactor for women around
drinking, which is good.
But because of that leg in womenbuying alcohol and women
consuming alcohol, the alcoholindustry I think in the 60s,
(28:43):
maybe essentially tagged womenas an emerging market and
started to really target and goafter women as, a brand new
market that could be exploited.
We see this.
In, companies using feminizedlanguage in their marketing or
positioning alcohol consumptionas like a feminist act or
(29:08):
creating new products that aretargeted specifically towards
women.
So when you see a beer companythat then makes like a cooler,
that's pink.
Lindsey (29:16):
What about like skinny girl margaritas?
I'm like, yeah.
Amy (29:21):
Yeah, all that bullshit.
All of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We see that and it's all donevery intentionally and it's all
done to make money off of us,which also harms us.
And.
All just, for the sake of makingmore money and increasing
profits.
one of the things that I talkabout, like I do a lot of
education yes, I love that,conversations like these are
(29:42):
articles or social media orwhatever.
Women, metabolize alcoholdifferently and all of that kind
of thing.
So there are physiologicaldifferences, but some of the
other, key pieces don't get alot of airtime.
For example, the relationshipbetween alcohol and breast
cancer is not one that we talkabout a lot, but outside of
genetic and hereditary factors,alcohol is the leading.
(30:05):
Risk factor for breast cancerand women.
And most women do not know this.
And we also have awarenessstudies that show us that about
20 to 30 percent of women areaware of the relationship
between alcohol and breastcancer, which means that high
percentage of women don't knowabout that relationship.
And earlier this year, there wasa pretty large study that
(30:29):
revealed the relationshipspecifically amongst women
between alcohol consumption andheart disease risk.
That is also very significant.
The numbers were staggering thatcame out of that study.
If you would like, I can sendyou that study.
If you want to put it into yourshow, read it themselves, but
(30:50):
like really concerning.
So women who were engaging inbinge drinking, for example, and
binge drinking in that study wasdefined as three standard drinks
per day.
Okay.
Increased women's risk ofdeveloping heart disease by 65%.
Wow.
These are not small numbers, andthese are not conversations that
we as women are having aroundalcohol and alcohol is
(31:13):
everywhere and it's sociallyencouraged.
My goal is to make theinformation like accurate
evidence based information asavailable as alcohol itself is
so that people can make informeddecisions.
Educated decisions.
And if they're choosing todrink, they are choosing to
drink fully knowing and beingempowered with all the
(31:33):
information.
That feels so important.
Lindsey (31:36):
Everything you just said gave me chills.
I get so riled up about it.
Amy (31:41):
Me too.
And you should, because it's anissue of consent, right?
Like, how are we engaging withthis thing that we don't fully
understand and know all therisks and harms that go along
with it, right?
It's a health equity issue.
I happen to have a researchbased master's degree, so I can
read those studies andunderstand it, but most people
(32:02):
don't have that level ofeducation, and you shouldn't
need that to understand whatyou're putting in your body.
Lindsey (32:08):
That's amazing.
Oh, sorry, Trace.
My excitement.
I just cut you right off.
I was like,
Tracey (32:13):
It's okay.
I was just going to say, I thinkit's interesting what you're
saying because we just did anepisode and I'm learning more
about this myself and taking acourse because I'm in that stage
of life, but we just did anepisode about menopause and
alcohol.
Yeah.
And I feel like those twothings, what you were just
talking about are probablydirectly linked.
(32:34):
Yes, because our risk of heartdisease goes up in menopause and
so does breast cancer, right?
All those things are at higherrisk when we go through
perimenopause and menopause andthen put drinking on top of
that.
I think that's probably.
I'm not sure if there was ageranges in those studies, but if
(32:54):
you looked at the age range, Iwould almost guarantee that
those women are in that phase oflife and that age bracket.
Amy (33:02):
Yeah.
Tracey (33:03):
So it's very scary.
It's very scary for women forsure.
Amy (33:06):
It is.
And we need to be talking aboutit.
It's vital, right?
It's vital.
We're not talking about sometiny risk for some weird,
obscure substance that sometimeswe consume.
It's alcohol is everywhere, andwe're encouraged to drink it,
and it's paired with everything.
Tracey where we live in OntarioI'm not sure if you've been
keeping up with this, butalcohol is going to be in
(33:27):
convenience stores in September.
Tracey (33:29):
Yes.
Amy (33:30):
No.
Tracey (33:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsey (33:32):
No.
Let's make it easier.
Let's go buy bread.
And also let's get some booze.
I don't know.
Amy (33:37):
Totally.
Totally.
Tracey (33:39):
And we have so many more important issues and that's what
they decided to.
I know.
I know.
Focus their attention on, whichis very sad.
Yeah, it is.
And it is counter to, when we'rethinking about reducing alcohol
consumption and harms, we knowthat accessibility is a key
piece to that.
(34:00):
So moving in the oppositedirection and making it easier
to get and during COVID inOntario, they introduced two new
policies, one that allowed youto purchase alcohol with takeout
food orders and two to getalcohol through Uber.
And both of those changes weremade in the name of supporting
small businesses and smallbusinesses.
(34:22):
I hear you.
It was a hard time we could havegotten more creative in a less
harmful way.
And those policies have not beenchanged back and they won't be
because no, of course not.
It's huge money.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So anyway I also get very hotunder the collar about all of
this.
It makes me very upset.
Lindsey (34:43):
Quick question, Amy, before I switch gears what are
your thoughts on moderation?
Amy (34:48):
What are my thoughts on moderation?
I would say For folks who havestruggled with addiction or
substance use issues or, tryingto limit their intake and not
finding success with that.
I have not yet come acrossanyone who has really struggled
and then moved into a placewhere they're able to moderate
(35:10):
with success.
Also, generally speaking.
The way alcohol functions in ourbodies doesn't really lend
itself easily to moderationbecause, we develop a tolerance
to it and then we want more ofit.
So over time, that generallymoves in one direction.
I would say, for folks who havenever struggled with it and some
(35:34):
people are primed for addictionand others are not.
Sure.
Yeah.
Like maybe a glass of wine amonth or, very occasionally.
Great.
No problem.
From a risk perspective, therisk is very low.
All alcohol carries some levelof risk, but truly, if you're
having a single glass ofsomething every once in a while,
(35:55):
you're probably okay.
So if that's what we're talkingabout in terms of moderation.
Sure.
Sure.
I think some people can do that.
For the folks who have struggledwith addiction, I haven't really
seen it take shape
Lindsey (36:06):
successfully.
Yeah.
I feel like it gives you a paststill like for me, I could never
just have one glass of wine.
I could.
But I always wanted more, and Iwould drink more.
And if I wasn't drinking, Iwasn't thinking about it.
So I feel like for those peoplein the middle, moderation is
(36:26):
hey, it's you're tellingyourself, it's still okay, a
little bit.
But then I made a real and I waslike, Okay, let's just break
this down.
So if Like you said, alcohol isa group one carcinogen, right?
And so is nuclear radiation, andso is asbestos.
But we're not like, let's justmoderate our exposure to
(36:48):
asbestos and nuclear radiation.
Let's just try that out and seehow that goes.
No.
We want to eliminate all that.
But like, why did we do thiswith alcohol?
Okay, I can have a little bit, Ijust think I was never able to
do that.
I know Kelly wasn't able to dothat successfully.
And then it's added stress.
Like you say, you're only goingto have one or two drinks, but
(37:09):
then you go beyond that.
And then you're like, like Isaid this, but of course, every
time I break this promise tomyself, and now it's just that
added stress of I can't moderatewhat's wrong with me.
Oh my God, I can't just drinknormally.
So I just think eliminate.
Amy (37:24):
Yeah.
And for anybody who perhaps hasstruggled with drinking and
they're really wanting tomoderate, I guess I would just
ask why, so what is it?
What is the tie that stillconnects you to alcohol?
What is it that you're seeking?
And if it truly is about that,one single drink every once in a
(37:45):
while, which.
It's never been doing for you.
And that's the thing.
Yeah.
So what are you hoping to getout of that experience that you
feel you can't have if alcoholis without it.
Is alcohol actually deliveringon that experience for you?
So really what is it doing?
Do you need it?
What is the pull to still wantto do all the work to moderate?
(38:08):
Cause it's a lot of mental loadto be like, I can only have one
or I have to limit myself oronly then, or only at this time.
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
Lindsey (38:17):
It is exhausting.
A willpower thing like whenyou're trying to adjust your
eating habits to I think that'stied back to the belief thing
like what do you believe aboutit because are you gritting your
teeth and trying to use awillpower to only have that one
drink and moderate, or really goback and look at what do you
believe you're getting fromalcohol by having just the one
(38:38):
like what's the perceivedbenefits.
Right.
Amy (38:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, just dig in a little foranybody who's I really want to
do that.
Dig into that.
And see what you find, right?
Yeah.
No judgment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But just get curious about itand actually figure out does
this goal of moderation alignwith my other goals?
Yeah.
Tracey (38:58):
If you're trying to moderate, and you're feeling
like it's more work, or it'smore about restraining yourself,
and there's still that desire inyour mind, because this happened
to me, I could just have onedrink, but I would always
mentally want more.
So if you're moderating, and inyour mind, you're always
thinking about that one morethat should probably be a pretty
(39:21):
big red flag that you shouldn'tbe moderating.
When you lose that restraint andit's likely to happen.
It's just falling off the wagonwith an eating program too.
It's okay I can introduce backsugar because I haven't had it
for so long.
you have that 1 dessert.
How long is it going to be tillyou're having dessert regularly
or those cookies or thatchocolate?
I think for some people, it'sjust got to be an all or
(39:43):
nothing.
Agreed.
Amy (39:44):
Yeah.
Lindsey (39:45):
I wanted to switch gears a little bit here, Amy.
I have a last point that I wantto touch on before I ask you
where our listeners can findyou.
You also state that you're analcohol culture consultant and
educator with your company andyou support organizations and
companies in creating alcoholfree workspaces.
(40:07):
I'm sorry, what?
This is amazing.
This is the first that I've everheard of somebody doing this.
And I think this is reallyimportant.
So you're disrupting normativealcohol culture and reducing
harms that are caused by it.
So I've got a question for you.
How can you tell if yourworkplace is alcohol safe or
not?
Amy (40:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I actually have a quiz on mywebsite for organizations to
assess what their alcoholpractices look like.
Normative alcohol culture is aterm that I actually created so
that we can talk about all theways that we think about and
talk about and engage withalcohol.
(40:47):
alcohol has gone through.
a process that has made itincreasingly normalized in our
world.
So we no longer question it.
We no longer question if it'sactually working for us, if it's
in service to us.
I think that this is also truein corporate and organizational
environments.
Because so many people are incorporate or organizational
(41:09):
environments, I thinkorganizations are so well
situated to create A rippleeffect around alcohol and how
alcohol exists within theirorganization.
So some things that anorganization could look at if
they were interested in creatinga more alcohol safe environment
(41:30):
are you as an organizationgifting alcohol to employees?
Are you regularly hostingevents, mandatory or not in
places like wineries or bars isit an expectation that any kind
of client interactions or anykind of client entertaining
involved drinking one good onethat folks might not think to
(41:53):
look at, but our mental healthand alcohol related.
Claims that are going throughyour insurance or benefits
packages increasing are breastcancer claims increasing.
Cause we know that all of that,
Lindsey (42:06):
you're blowing my mind.
You're blowing my mind.
Yeah.
Lots and lots of organizationshave bars built into their
offices.
There is an expectation.
Of alcohol consumption duringoffice hours in your office
site.
Those are the types of things.
If you were interested increating a more alcohol safe
(42:27):
environment those are the typesof things that you could be
looking at to get a little bitmore information.
About what the alcohol cultureis within your organization.
I think it's really important toacknowledge that there are lots
of reasons that folks don'tdrink.
For myself, it's because Istruggled with addiction and
also I'm now so clear about whatalcohol is and I just have no
(42:49):
interest in putting it in mybody.
But there are lots of reasonsthat people don't and, for
Organizations that are global innature, they likely have
employees from all differentcultures, countries, religions
may or may not engage withalcohol in the ways that we do.
(43:10):
People don't drink for, culturaland religious reasons, people
don't drink for health reasons,pregnancy, whatever it is.
Not only from a perspective ofincreasing.
Employee and organizationalwellbeing and reducing harm, but
also increasing inclusion where,nobody is feeling like they're
missing out on something becausethey don't drink or feeling like
(43:34):
opportunities for networking andadvancement aren't available to
them because they don'tparticipate in alcohol culture.
There really are.
Really important pieces to lookat when it comes to alcohol and
organizational spaces.
I would also say in Canada, wehave an organization called the
Canadian Center on Substance Useand Addiction, and they provide
(43:57):
a lot of really helpful andinsightful data and reports for
us.
We know that alcohol costs allof us a lot of money in terms of
the burden it bears on ourhealth care system, on our legal
system, and on, financeessentially.
(44:18):
So we know that alcohol costsorganizations and all of us
Billions of dollars every singleyear.
When you're talking toorganizations and companies who
are interested in preserving thebottom line, take a look at what
your organization is doing withalcohol.
Do you have a regular budgetline for alcohol in your
(44:39):
organization?
And then how does that thenimpact things like absenteeism,
presenteeism, productivity, allthe things.
It's really interesting work andnot a lot of people are doing
it, but I think it's really, youare, Yeah,
Amy (44:55):
I'm trying.
Yeah.
Lindsey (44:56):
Oh my gosh.
I've never heard of anybodytackling alcohol.
And being alcohol free from thisangle.
And I think this is so needed.
Yeah, it really blew my mind.
Some of your posts on socialmedia.
Tracey (45:08):
It's very interesting.
I just want to speak to it froma flip perspective because I've
had this happen in my ownorganization where I think it
goes back to there's a sense offear of taking it away from
employees.
Amy (45:23):
Yeah.
Tracey (45:23):
As it's a benefit, right?
That they're offering thesethings at events and whatnot,
because I had a situation whereI was putting on a team builder
event for my team.
And one of the very firstquestions I was asked was,
they're going to be wine there.
I really think that there wassome members of my team because
(45:43):
it was voluntary, right?
It was after hours.
So it was voluntary.
It wasn't mandatory that theyattend that there was probably
people that wouldn't go if therewasn't going to be wine there.
Amy (45:54):
Yeah,
Tracey (45:54):
so I think there's a lot of pressure from the flip side
sometimes in organizations tohave those offerings based on
what we believe is so acceptedand normal in society.
Amy (46:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsey (46:11):
Then I would say you'd have to question your
organizational culture, yourvision, your mission and all of
that and take a look at that,right?
Because if you're anorganization that values health
and wellbeing for your staffinstead of wine, maybe, invest
those funds into gymmemberships, that's actually
going to be an actual benefit.
That's just my opinion.
Amy (46:32):
Yeah, no.
And I think that's legit.
And I agree the corporateenvironment and organizational
environment is very much anextension of the world we live
in and the normalization ofalcohol everywhere.
It's not even necessarily aboutsaying we're never going to
purchase alcohol or make itavailable, but maybe it's,
(46:53):
instead of going to that wineryfor the holiday party, maybe you
do choose something that, maybethere's alcohol there.
Maybe there isn't, but somethingthat feels more inclusive to
folks that give everybody anoption to participate.
And maybe, you do also look atso like the work that I do,
there's the education piece.
There's also because I'm acoach, there's the coaching.
(47:15):
So actually sitting down with, Clevel executives and talking to
them about the education piece,but also talking to them and
getting them on board with theshifts and the changes.
Then actually looking at policywithin that organization.
So change like this isn't justabout taking the alcohol away.
(47:35):
It's about.
Shifting awareness, shiftingeducation, changing policy, and
actually creating an environmentwhere alcohol or like drinking
in response to stress or copingbecause of a high stress work
environment isn't as neededbecause we've changed the
environment.
Lindsey (47:53):
I love that.
For anybody listening that wantsto have some one on one coaching
with you or do anything withtheir organization or workplace,
where can people find you onsocial media and where can they
find you online like a website?
Amy (48:10):
Yeah, so my website is HOL and well.
com and I'll spell that outbecause it's not what you think.
It's H.
O.
L.
A.
N.
D.
W.
E.
L.
dot com.
So that's my company I'm prettyactive on Instagram so you can
also find me there.
My handle is at Ms.
So Ms.
Amy C.
(48:30):
Willis, which is my name.
Either of those are a great wayto connect with me.
Lindsey (48:34):
I just absolutely love today's conversation, Amy, and
I'm so glad that we connectedand that you came on and talked
about all the things because,man, I just feel like some of
the things you're offering.
I've already looked at yourwebsite.
It's just so on point andlisteners go and follow Amy on
social media.
Follow her on Instagram.
She's amazing.
(48:55):
I have one last question, Amy,to close us out here.
What was your biggest surprisebenefit of getting sober?
Amy (49:02):
Yeah, I love that question.
I would say the level ofconfidence that I have.
Built it's interesting becausetoday in my master class, it was
all about confidence buildingand I talk about my own
experiences with getting soberand how sobriety is a perfect
container to build confidencebecause in my definition of
(49:25):
confidence.
It's the willingness to try notnecessarily being attached to
the outcome, but actually justtrying something new and in
doing so you learn some newskills, you learn something
about yourself, you build yourcompetence, which then
reinforces your confidence andit just becomes this cycle.
And I can't think of.
(49:46):
Anything better than sobrietythat invites you to try new
things repeatedly and continueto show up without actually
knowing how it's all going toshake out.
Yeah, I would say the confidenceI never would have guessed that
getting sober would have enabledme to become the most confident
version of myself.
Lindsey (50:03):
I freaking love
Amy (50:04):
that.
Yeah.
Lindsey (50:06):
I just fricking love that.
Yeah.
That is on point, Amy.
That is on point.
You're so awesome, Amy.
Oh my God.
I'm so glad we connected.
And I'm so glad that ourlisteners are able to just
experience this, like the vibehere or, Trace, did you have any
last thoughts?
I just wanted to say thank youso much.
What you're doing is amazing.
(50:27):
I love your approach and I thinkthat if any of our listeners
want to reach out, that you'redefinitely someone who can help
them out.
And yeah, I love the wholecorporate thing too.
Something I've never heard ofeither.
Love that you're tackling fromthat perspective.
Because to me, The more angleswe can tackle this at the
better, right?
(50:47):
So that's awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
It's been such a pleasure tomeet you and I'm so happy you
could come on and share yourstory with our listeners.
Amy (50:56):
Thank you for having me.
This has been great and I hopeit reaches folks and it is of
service.
They need to hear your message.
I think it's so important.
All right, everybody.
Oh, you're so welcome.
That is a wrap on today'sepisode, go and follow Amy
Willis on Instagram.
Don't forget to check out hercompany whole and well, spelled
(51:18):
H O L and W E L L.
We'll see you back here nextTuesday with a brand new
episode.
And until then, you guys knowwhat to do.
Keep laughing.
Kelly (51:31):
Thank you for listening.
Please give us a five starrating like and subscribe, share
on social media and tell yourfriends.
We love getting your feedbackand ideas of what you'd like to
hear on upcoming episodes of theLAF life podcast.
If you yourself are livingalcohol free and want to share
your story here, please reachout.
Welcome to the LAF life podcast, a lifestyle podcast
based on living alcohol free anda booze soaked world.
My name is Kelly Evans andtogether with my friends, Tracey
Djordjevic, and Lindsey Harik.
We share uncensored.
Unscripted real conversationsabout what our lives have been
like since we ditched alcoholand how we got here by sharing
(00:24):
our individual stories.
We'll show you that there isn'tjust one way to do this, no
matter where you are on yourjourney from sober, curious to
years in recovery and everyonein between, you are welcome
here, no judgment and a ton ofsupport.
Lindsey (00:40):
Hey everybody, it's Tuesday and that means another
episode of the LAF Life podcast.
If you just hit play, don't goanywhere because we have an
awesome guest for you today.
So it's June and I want to juststart out by saying happy pride
month, everybody.
What an awesome way to celebratediversity and be inclusive and
let's just be nice.
(01:02):
Okay.
Like people are people and humanbeings are human beings and
let's just nice to everybody.
I can't wait to introduce ourvery special guest today.
We are joined by Amy Willis, andshe is a holistic sober coach
for women and LGBTQ plus folkswho want better booze free
lives.
(01:22):
Hi, Amy!
Amy (01:24):
Hi, guys! I'm so excited to be here, and I love the pride
message right off the top.
Lindsey (01:29):
Thank you.
I feel like it's just soimportant.
I was stalking you a little biton social.
And you've been working in therecovery space since 2019.
And sober since 2016.
That's You've got some yearsbehind you.
Amy (01:45):
Yeah, so I'll be celebrating eight sober years in
August, which time flies.
And my company actually justcelebrated its fifth birthday
yesterday.
So
Tracey (01:57):
yeah, congrats.
I saw that on social media.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Lindsey (02:02):
I'm going to talk about your company in a little bit
because I was telling Tracybefore we hit record about your
work as being an alcohol cultureconsultant.
I was like, this blows my mind.
I have to talk to her aboutthis.
I need her to talk to the peopleabout this.
But what we usually do when westart out on a podcast is we go
back to the beginning.
So I want you to talk a littlebit about your struggle with
(02:25):
alcohol addiction.
What did that look like for you?
And how did it impact your life?
Amy (02:31):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I think like many of us, Istarted drinking in my teens and
I started drinking with friendsand peers and it started out.
Socially and experimentally.
But what I can recognize now inreflecting back on my life is
(02:52):
when I started drinking, I wasalso going through a really
traumatic upheaval within myfamily of origin within our
home.
And a lot of what was happeningwas completely out of my
control.
And frankly, I didn't have a lotof healthy coping strategies.
We didn't have a lot of healthyconversations in our home.
And so what was happening to andaround us, we weren't talking
(03:15):
about, we weren't processing andwe weren't dealing with as a
unit or as individuals.
So when I started drinking atthat same time, it immediately
presented itself as escape.
And relief from everything thatwas happening in my life that I
couldn't find relief from in anyother way.
I also grew up in a home wheremy dad struggled with alcohol
(03:38):
addiction.
So alcohol was always presentand very normalized within my
family unit.
And I didn't.
Even really realize until I gotolder and started paying
attention to how other friends,parents consumed alcohol or not,
that the way my dad consumedalcohol was not healthy or
(04:01):
regular.
It was obviously quiteexcessive.
And that was baked into theenvironment.
So it was there.
There was also addiction alreadyrunning in the family.
So I didn't really realize untilmany years later that I was
already primed for addiction ina lot of ways.
Relatively early on in mydrinking days, I started
(04:21):
developing some pretty red flagdrinking behavior.
Like I was hiding it.
I was drinking alone within ayear of starting to drink.
Those things developed prettyrapidly for me.
And because alcohol andaddiction are progressive, I was
drinking more and more both infrequency and in volume and that
(04:45):
just continued on it.
It became something that wasbaked into every aspect of my
life.
And it largely got to the pointwhere, if I couldn't drink at
the thing, whatever the thingwas, I didn't really want to go,
I didn't really want to do it.
And I also, integrated alcoholinto things that don't need
alcohol, like going to themovies or I practice a lot of
(05:07):
yoga and I'm now a yoga teacherat the time I wasn't, but I went
to two really beautiful yogafestivals.
I went to Wanderlust in Montrealor near Montreal many years ago,
and I was drunk the entire time.
And it's those kinds of thingswhere you don't need to be drunk
at a really beautiful, reallyspiritual experience, like a
(05:28):
yoga festival.
And things progressed as theydo.
Externally things looked,despite what I just said about
being drunk at a yoga festival,for the most part, things looked
like they were fine.
My career was progressing.
I had relationships, I traveled,I had a very full life.
I had great friends.
But where I really started tonotice that my own addiction was
(05:51):
really negatively impacting mewas around my mood and mental
health.
Obviously now that I haven'tbeen drinking for many years, I
have a very clear sense of whatmy mental health and mood
baseline is.
But at the time I, I didn't havethat clarity because I'd been
drinking for such a long timeand alcohol is a depressant and
it was very regular.
(06:12):
It was a very regular and commonexperience for me to wake up
after a night of heavy drinking,feeling very indifferent about
whether or not I wanted to live.
And now I can recognize how darka place that is for me, knowing
what I know now.
And I spent a lot of time andspace in that darkness and it
(06:35):
really started to weigh heavilyon me, obviously.
So I would say, that's like howit started, how it ended.
And in terms of, when I startedto question my own drinking.
Lindsey (06:47):
Yeah.
Talk to us about that.
Amy (06:49):
Yeah.
So as I mentioned, like myfather struggled with alcohol
addiction and he unexpectedlypassed as a result of his
drinking
Lindsey (06:59):
Oh my God.
Amy (07:00):
Yeah.
And he and I had a very close,but very complicated
relationship.
And, in my family, it was he andI who struggled with addiction
and nobody else.
After he passed away, notimmediately, my addiction got a
lot worse after he passed awaybecause it was a lot to deal
with as you would expect.
Lindsey (07:19):
For sure.
Amy (07:20):
Yeah.
These questions started poppinginto my head.
I was just like, is this it?
Is this my whole life?
Is this all there is likedrinking excessively blacking
out, being hung over, feelingpretty low and in a dark place
and then rinse and repeat overand over.
Something somewhere along theway just kept poking me and
(07:43):
being like, is this it?
Because this all there is foryou.
I didn't know the answer and Ididn't know what there could be
that wasn't that, but I knewthat there had to be something
else.
And I had this Instinctualknowing that I was supposed to
be doing something differentthan what I was doing.
And I didn't know what it was Ididn't know how to get there,
(08:03):
but I knew that addictioncouldn't be the end of me.
That is when I started to lookdifferently at my relationship
with alcohol.
And also my dad had passed away.
I literally had the blueprint ofwhat my life would look like if
I kept going.
Not to sound dramatic about it,but I didn't want to die.
I didn't want to die early.
(08:24):
I didn't want to cut my lifeshort because I was refusing to
change.
Tracey (08:28):
Did anybody question your drinking, Amy?
Or was anybody else wondering ifyou had a problem or if there
was something wrong?
Amy (08:37):
A few different family members commented over the years
about it.
But what's interesting andbecause, the external looked
good,
Tracey (08:47):
for sure.
Lindsey (08:48):
Yeah.
You know, in my drinking days, Icompleted an undergraduate
degree, I completed a master'sdegree.
I traveled the world.
I interned at the UN, like allkinds of things that look really
great.
And I think there's so muchmisinformation about addiction
and we have very antiquatedunderstandings of what it looks
(09:08):
like.
So if we see someone who,externally it looks like they're
thriving, we might not say Oh,we might want to look at that.
Cause I don't have a DUI and Ididn't go to rehab and I didn't
lose my job.
But I think, we know thatproblematic relationships with
substances take all kinds ofshapes and forms and it isn't
(09:28):
necessarily the most obviousfolks who are struggling, right?
Tracey (09:33):
I think it's interesting what you said about your dad and
his relationship with alcoholbecause my dad was an alcoholic
as well.
And I would say the same,growing up, we didn't know he
was an alcoholic.
I think We didn't see him as analcoholic.
He was a weekend binge drinkerbecause he was a long haul truck
driver.
So he couldn't drink during theweek and he didn't, he was very
(09:54):
disciplined that way, but hewould come home and pretty much
drink from the time he walked inthe door to the time he had to
go back out the door.
And it wasn't until he stoppeddriving truck and he became an
alcoholic.
Every day drinker drinking vodkain the morning and his coffee
that we realized that he had adrinking problem, but in
(10:15):
reality, he always had adrinking problem, again, a
drinking problem or problematicdrinking looks different for
everybody.
So just because he was bingingon the weekends and he could
function during the week withoutit doesn't mean he didn't have a
problem because when he didstart drinking.
He didn't really stop, right?
It was that could never justhave one.
(10:35):
And obviously that's why when hestopped driving truck his
drinking then progressed andgrew into an everyday habit.
But the reality is he was alwaysan alcoholic and always had that
problem.
So I can totally relate to whatyou were saying there with your
dad as well, because Idefinitely had that growing up
too.
Amy (10:55):
Yeah.
And that's hard.
And I'm sorry that was part ofyour experience.
Cause it's hard.
Lindsey (11:01):
I was listening to another podcast and one of the
topics that came up was Yourbeliefs around alcohol, alcohol
and addiction really stems fromwhat you believe alcohol is
doing for you.
For me, when I was drinking, Ithought that was my relief, my
escape, right?
Like I believed you needed it tocelebrate I believed that in
(11:24):
order to get through a divorce.
I needed to have my wine everyweekend to just numb out, reset,
and relax.
Amy, do you think if somebodyworks on their beliefs about
alcohol, that could maybe changetheir relationship with it?
Amy (11:39):
Yes, a thousand percent.
Yes.
And a big part of the work thatI do with clients is around
mindset and beliefs because ourbeliefs shape.
Our actions, they shape ourchoices, they shape largely our
external experiences.
And using what you just said,Lindsay, about like believing
(12:02):
that this was a tool to relax ora way to wind down.
If you believe that to be trueand you really value your
ability to relax and wind down.
Then the thought of takingalcohol out of the equation is
going to threaten those thingsthat you really value, right?
Lindsey (12:18):
It's going to trigger you and cause anxiety.
Amy (12:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Or, and I just mentioned I justtaught a masterclass and it was
on sober socializing buildingconfidence in sobriety and
creating boundaries that supportyou.
we kicked off day one withbeliefs about alcohol because so
many people have such a strongbelief and association that
alcohol equals fun.
Lindsey (12:42):
Exactly.
To socialize it's needed and, weall like socializing,
particularly with the summercoming up there's so many
opportunities to, go to a patio,go to a beach vacations,
barbecues, all of that.
And, we have that association ofalcohol being intermingled and
all those things.
If we believe that alcohol isthe facilitator of fun, and that
(13:07):
we can't have fun without it,taking it out of the equation
it's gonna make it veryunappealing and it's gonna make
it exactly feel like you're notgonna have a good time.
And there's nothing objectivelytrue about that.
Fun is a choice.
We can all have fun exactly atany time doing whatever we're
doing, and it has nothing to dowith alcohol.
But if we believe that alcoholmakes it fun and we can't have
(13:29):
fun without alcohol, then that'sgonna be our reality.
It's like alcohol is say a steakor something a meat eater is
going to be like steak.
I love it.
Can't wait to have it.
So juicy, but a vegan whobelieves differently about
animal cruelty and eating meatis going to look at that steak
and be totally repulsed by itand isn't going to want to touch
(13:51):
it.
So I really like that you do andtouch on this in your coaching,
because I think if we can workon Our beliefs and change the
narrative in our mind.
I think that's the key tochanging our relationship with
alcohol.
And this is for people who arelike the middle path drinkers.
I didn't have an issue where Iwas like a compulsive drinker
(14:14):
and I couldn't control myself.
I wasn't somebody that drankevery single day and had to, and
went through withdrawal if Ididn't have it.
I think that's a little bit.
Of a different kind but I thinkfor the majority of people if we
can work on the beliefs aboutthe substance because really,
when I used to binge drink andblackout and say stupid shit.
(14:35):
Was that really fun?
Because I believed I had funwith alcohol, but when I was
crying in the middle of thedance floor at my sister's
wedding, was that fun?
When I fell and broke mycollarbone and had to have
surgery to repair it because Iwas so drunk on wine at home,
was that fun?
I think if you're Gettinginjured and your relationships
are strained and you're wakingup hungover and you believe you
(14:57):
need alcohol for fun, Ichallenge people to really
question that belief, right?
And it sounds like you'reworking on that.
Amy (15:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have these questions andthey're like really quick.
So maybe I'll share them here,but okay.
Anytime you're investigatingyour beliefs ask is it true?
Like objectively true?
What a group of people lookingat this question all answered in
the same way.
So is it objectively true?
What evidence do you have of itbeing true?
(15:26):
What would be possible if itweren't true?
And there's another one, butwe'll just leave it at that.
To actually just take that stuffapart, because the thing about
beliefs is.
Sometimes they feel like they'refacts because they're so deeply
rooted and they've been therefor a long time and we've
invested a lot in them.
(15:47):
But in a lot of cases we inheritbeliefs from our caregivers.
We believe what they believed tobe true and they inherited from
their caregivers.
So I think taking some time toactually investigate is this
true?
Is this true for me?
What would be possible ifsomething else were true?
Does this belief actually serveme?
(16:07):
I think that can be reallyhelpful.
Even just putting the wholeconversation about Alcohol to
the side for a second what do webelieve to be true about
ourselves?
Do we believe ourselves that, wecan create change if we want, do
we believe a different versionof our lives is possible?
Do we believe we have thecapacity to create something
(16:29):
different?
I think the beliefs pieces isreally foundational in any kind
of change that you're hoping tomake in your life.
Lindsey (16:36):
I love that.
It is so well said and youarticulate it so well.
And I love that you're coaching.
That's the foundation.
Great.
Tracey (16:45):
I think it's just simple questions to Lindsay's point,
asking yourself, was that reallyfun, I know for myself, I made
many decisions when I wasdrinking that were not good for
me that I know if I wasn'tdrinking, I would have never
made.
So I think that's a questiontoo.
If you weren't drinking, wouldyou have done that?
(17:05):
Yes.
If you weren't drinking, wouldyou have made that decision?
Because to me, I always say youneed at least one person in your
life.
That's going to call you out onyour shit and ask you the hard
questions.
And to me, sometimes those arethe hard questions that are
really going to make people digdown to themselves and, push
themselves to answer questionsthat make them feel
(17:28):
uncomfortable.
That they wouldn't otherwiseanswer if someone wasn't pushing
them.
Going with the whole beliefs.
way of thinking is amazing.
I agree with Lindsay.
I think that's a great conceptand a great foundation for what
you're doing when you're workingwith people and coaching them.
Lindsey (17:44):
Amy, you mentioned this a little bit about summer coming
up when we were talkingpreviously here, and I wanted
just to ask you a question pickyour brain for some advice.
Let's maybe talk a little bitabout someone going into their
first sober summer.
What are some little tidbits orlittle nuggets that you can
offer someone who's less thanconfident about, enjoying summer
(18:08):
or summer?
Staying sober for the summerwhen, just like you said,
there's so many opportunities todrink.
Patio season, people are onvacation, we're going to the
lake, there are outdoor concertsand venues and festivals and
alcohol is everywhere.
What can you tell people?
What advice can you give them tohelp them stay on track with
(18:29):
their sobriety journey?
Amy (18:31):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
I would say, setting ourselvesup for success is really
essential.
And there are lots of ways thatwe can do that.
I think what I see and certainlya mistake I made when I got
sober is I didn't have a plan.
I didn't have anything in place.
I was just like, okay I'm notdrinking.
(18:52):
So I'm just going to show up anddo all the same things and just
hope for the best and hope isawesome, but it's not a
strategy.
Yeah, I would say being superintentional.
Before even getting to all thethings, when an invite or
opportunity for somethingsocial.
Comes into your orbit before youanswer, just pause and check in
(19:13):
with yourself.
Do you want to go do you want tohang out with these people?
Do you want to actually do thisthing?
Do you have the energy for it?
How is your stress level?
Where is your capacity rightnow?
So for me, knowing what I knowabout myself, if somebody asks
me to do something on a Fridayevening at, I don't know,
anything after really seveno'clock, My capacity after the
(19:36):
full work week is likerelatively low, so I'm probably
a no on that.
Yeah.
Even if it sounds like a greattime, and so the reason for that
is because when we put ourselvesin situations where our capacity
is low, maybe we're stressed,maybe we're anxious.
Maybe we're really tired.
We're not going to be making thebest decisions that are most
supportive of us.
So I would say before youactually get to anything, check
(19:59):
in with yourself.
Do you want to go, do you wantto be with these people?
Do you want to do the thing?
And if it's a hell yes, on allfronts, then yes, that's a go
ahead, I would say.
And if it's not a hell yes, thenmaybe you pass on that one.
For the stuff that you do decideto go to, I would say bring a
friend, bring a partner, bringsomebody for built in
(20:20):
accountability.
That can be really helpful.
I would also say, have an ideaof when you want to go And when
you want to leave givingyourself full permission to
leave the second you want to,and that might be five minutes
after you get there.
If you're like, not my vibe,that's okay.
I think sometimes we overstay.
(20:42):
And then again, we like get to aplace where, and this is true
for me, I'm tired.
I'm over it.
I'm people though.
And like when we're in that allthe time.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know if that's like apeople pleasing thing or no,
hard
Lindsey (20:56):
times saying no and no boundaries.
Yeah.
Amy (20:59):
Yeah.
So it's just have a sense, justlike map it out for yourself.
I would also say.
Check in with yourselfintermittently.
How are you feeling?
Are you enjoying your time?
Are you enjoying your company?
I would also say plan to bringsomething to drink that you
enjoy drinking.
Don't hope that the host isgoing to have something
enjoyable for you because ifyou're in a social situation and
(21:24):
everybody around you is drinkingwhat you used to drink and you
have a glass of.
tap water in your hand.
It's not, it's not going to beas enjoyable.
It might feel tempting.
And so just like plan, somethingthat you actually really enjoy.
So that might be like an alcoholfree drink, or it might be your
favorite bubbly water or aninfused tea or whatever it is,
(21:47):
but just something that youenjoy.
Consuming that you can have inyour hand so that you don't need
to rely on somebody else.
And, you aren't then just stuckwith water.
And I would also just saylastly, just remembering that
fun is a choice.
Going back to the mindset piece.
Love it.
If you have already decided thatit's not gonna be fun because
(22:10):
you're not drinking, I promiseyou're gonna have a terrible
time.
But if you go in and, it doesn'teven have to be going in with
the attitude that I'm going tohave the best time of my life.
Maybe it's more neutral.
Maybe it's, I'm really open tohaving a good time tonight or
I'm really open to seeing howthis all unfolds.
I can guarantee you're going tohave a better time if you
(22:31):
approach it that way.
And mentally set yourself up inthat way.
Lindsey (22:35):
I love that.
Those are some really tangibleways that, someone can protect
their decision to ditch booze.
And also PSA, you're notresponsible to make everybody
feel comfortable around you.
When you've always been drinkingand you're hanging out with a
group of people that you'vealways been drinking with, you
have to realize that you're theone that's making the decision
now to be different, right?
(22:55):
And that decision doesn't haveto make everybody around you
feel good.
It actually might, be like amirror.
Cause, I used to find, and maybethis was your experience too, I
used to find that when I said,no thanks, people then would be
like, oh, and then they wouldstart to tell me I only drink,
on Saturday nights and I'm likeI didn't question that.
I didn't ask you that and Idon't need to know about it.
(23:18):
That's cool.
You do you, but I think we startto then become mirrors to people
somehow.
And they start to project theirrelationship onto you.
And then, you might feel like,oh my gosh, I'm uncomfortable
and I'm making them feeluncomfortable.
I feel I'm so far into it nowand outside of the jar that I
can now read the label and belike, Oh, I get it.
(23:40):
I have the confidence andpractice.
I think we talked about that onanother podcast, practice the
saying the no, and then youbuild confidence.
Right.
Amy (23:50):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I would also say for folkshave some responses in your back
pocket.
Don't be in the moment in realtime, trying to figure out how
you want to communicate thatyou're not drinking, just like a
few things in your back pocket.
And again, you don't need toover explain it.
You don't need to explainanything to anybody.
It can be as simple as I'm notdrinking or no, thanks.
(24:12):
I'm good with what I have.
But have them in your backpocket, practice them out loud.
Practice them in front of themirror, if that helps because,
by the time you've said it 20times, you're going to feel a
lot better about saying itcompared to the first or second.
And you can do that.
You can practice anytime.
Yeah.
So practicing.
Yes.
Tracey (24:31):
I think that advice that you started with there, Amy, is
good for anybody in anysituation.
We should all be doing that selfanalysis before we decide to do
anything.
Like when I think about,situations even now for myself,
and sometimes the things youcommit to, I know that there was
a point for me where I justreally had to do that re
(24:53):
evaluation of, Is this where Iwant to go?
Is this the people I want tospend my time with?
And I think even after drinkingor not, you should be asking
yourself those questions whenyou commit to social situations,
right?
Amy (25:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know if thisactually I do know, I think it's
probably part of like ourconditioning as girls and women
is to say yes.
And to be accommodating and tomake other people feel
comfortable and make them feelgood.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and I think that also goeshand in hand with changing your
relationship to alcohol.
(25:27):
There's just so much, whetherit's like externally
communicated pressure or notit's all there.
And so I think actually juststepping into our power and
being like, actually, no, Idon't want to go to that thing.
And no, I don't want to drink.
I think there's good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's bold and it's powerfuland it's awesome.
(25:49):
And counterculture and anyway,that could be a whole other
podcast episode.
Lindsey (25:54):
Totally agree with you.
It's that confidence piece,right?
That confidence piece that youstart to build over time.
Totally.
I wanted to ask you a reallyimportant question.
Because I feel like you withyour coaching and everything,
you're going to probably havesome observations on this.
As your experience strugglingwith addiction and someone who
(26:17):
identifies as queer, and you'reworking a lot with women and the
LGBTQ plus community, which isamazing.
I wanted to know, what are yourobservations within these
groups, women, LGBTQ are therates of substance use higher?
Amy (26:35):
Yeah, so definitely within the queer community and by a
pretty significant margin.
Within the queer community,there's a lot of diversity.
So if we were looking even morespecifically, like we see
amongst trans folks, higherrates of mental health issues,
higher rates of addiction,higher rates of suicidal
ideation and all of it.
(26:57):
Yeah.
I think it's very interesting.
Obviously as a woman and as aqueer woman and as a sober woman
and somebody who struggled withaddiction, that is my own lived
experience.
What I can say for sure is thequeer community, particularly at
this time of year.
So keep your eyes peeled for it,you'll see it.
The queer community is very muchtargeted by alcohol companies.
(27:19):
Because as a group, as acollective, there are higher
rates of substance use issues.
And so there is a lot more moneyat this time of year, especially
for alcohol companies to make alot more money because they make
the most money off the heaviestdrinkers.
Yeah.
And there is a lot of veryspecific targeting of the queer
(27:39):
community.
If you go to any pridecelebrations, count the number
of alcohol companies who arethere as sponsors.
I was Yeah.
And they positioned themselvesas allies and as like supporters
of the community and it's justlike you were, you wouldn't be
here because what you'reactually doing is peddling a
(28:00):
very addictive, very poisonous,toxic substance to folks who are
already struggling with it.
And alcohol companies in.
Different ways, but in the samekind of predatory, manipulative
way also target women.
So women, historically it usedto be illegal for women to drink
(28:20):
in public.
It used to be illegal for womento be in bars and all of that
kind of thing.
Even though that was rooted in.
Sexism and misogyny.
It was actually a protectivefactor for women around
drinking, which is good.
But because of that leg in womenbuying alcohol and women
consuming alcohol, the alcoholindustry I think in the 60s,
(28:43):
maybe essentially tagged womenas an emerging market and
started to really target and goafter women as, a brand new
market that could be exploited.
We see this.
In, companies using feminizedlanguage in their marketing or
positioning alcohol consumptionas like a feminist act or
(29:08):
creating new products that aretargeted specifically towards
women.
So when you see a beer companythat then makes like a cooler,
that's pink.
Lindsey (29:16):
What about like skinny girl margaritas?
I'm like, yeah.
Amy (29:21):
Yeah, all that bullshit.
All of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We see that and it's all donevery intentionally and it's all
done to make money off of us,which also harms us.
And.
All just, for the sake of makingmore money and increasing
profits.
one of the things that I talkabout, like I do a lot of
education yes, I love that,conversations like these are
(29:42):
articles or social media orwhatever.
Women, metabolize alcoholdifferently and all of that kind
of thing.
So there are physiologicaldifferences, but some of the
other, key pieces don't get alot of airtime.
For example, the relationshipbetween alcohol and breast
cancer is not one that we talkabout a lot, but outside of
genetic and hereditary factors,alcohol is the leading.
(30:05):
Risk factor for breast cancerand women.
And most women do not know this.
And we also have awarenessstudies that show us that about
20 to 30 percent of women areaware of the relationship
between alcohol and breastcancer, which means that high
percentage of women don't knowabout that relationship.
And earlier this year, there wasa pretty large study that
(30:29):
revealed the relationshipspecifically amongst women
between alcohol consumption andheart disease risk.
That is also very significant.
The numbers were staggering thatcame out of that study.
If you would like, I can sendyou that study.
If you want to put it into yourshow, read it themselves, but
(30:50):
like really concerning.
So women who were engaging inbinge drinking, for example, and
binge drinking in that study wasdefined as three standard drinks
per day.
Okay.
Increased women's risk ofdeveloping heart disease by 65%.
Wow.
These are not small numbers, andthese are not conversations that
we as women are having aroundalcohol and alcohol is
(31:13):
everywhere and it's sociallyencouraged.
My goal is to make theinformation like accurate
evidence based information asavailable as alcohol itself is
so that people can make informeddecisions.
Educated decisions.
And if they're choosing todrink, they are choosing to
drink fully knowing and beingempowered with all the
(31:33):
information.
That feels so important.
Lindsey (31:36):
Everything you just said gave me chills.
I get so riled up about it.
Amy (31:41):
Me too.
And you should, because it's anissue of consent, right?
Like, how are we engaging withthis thing that we don't fully
understand and know all therisks and harms that go along
with it, right?
It's a health equity issue.
I happen to have a researchbased master's degree, so I can
read those studies andunderstand it, but most people
(32:02):
don't have that level ofeducation, and you shouldn't
need that to understand whatyou're putting in your body.
Lindsey (32:08):
That's amazing.
Oh, sorry, Trace.
My excitement.
I just cut you right off.
I was like,
Tracey (32:13):
It's okay.
I was just going to say, I thinkit's interesting what you're
saying because we just did anepisode and I'm learning more
about this myself and taking acourse because I'm in that stage
of life, but we just did anepisode about menopause and
alcohol.
Yeah.
And I feel like those twothings, what you were just
talking about are probablydirectly linked.
(32:34):
Yes, because our risk of heartdisease goes up in menopause and
so does breast cancer, right?
All those things are at higherrisk when we go through
perimenopause and menopause andthen put drinking on top of
that.
I think that's probably.
I'm not sure if there was ageranges in those studies, but if
(32:54):
you looked at the age range, Iwould almost guarantee that
those women are in that phase oflife and that age bracket.
Amy (33:02):
Yeah.
Tracey (33:03):
So it's very scary.
It's very scary for women forsure.
Amy (33:06):
It is.
And we need to be talking aboutit.
It's vital, right?
It's vital.
We're not talking about sometiny risk for some weird,
obscure substance that sometimeswe consume.
It's alcohol is everywhere, andwe're encouraged to drink it,
and it's paired with everything.
Tracey where we live in OntarioI'm not sure if you've been
keeping up with this, butalcohol is going to be in
(33:27):
convenience stores in September.
Tracey (33:29):
Yes.
Amy (33:30):
No.
Tracey (33:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsey (33:32):
No.
Let's make it easier.
Let's go buy bread.
And also let's get some booze.
I don't know.
Amy (33:37):
Totally.
Totally.
Tracey (33:39):
And we have so many more important issues and that's what
they decided to.
I know.
I know.
Focus their attention on, whichis very sad.
Yeah, it is.
And it is counter to, when we'rethinking about reducing alcohol
consumption and harms, we knowthat accessibility is a key
piece to that.
(34:00):
So moving in the oppositedirection and making it easier
to get and during COVID inOntario, they introduced two new
policies, one that allowed youto purchase alcohol with takeout
food orders and two to getalcohol through Uber.
And both of those changes weremade in the name of supporting
small businesses and smallbusinesses.
(34:22):
I hear you.
It was a hard time we could havegotten more creative in a less
harmful way.
And those policies have not beenchanged back and they won't be
because no, of course not.
It's huge money.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So anyway I also get very hotunder the collar about all of
this.
It makes me very upset.
Lindsey (34:43):
Quick question, Amy, before I switch gears what are
your thoughts on moderation?
Amy (34:48):
What are my thoughts on moderation?
I would say For folks who havestruggled with addiction or
substance use issues or, tryingto limit their intake and not
finding success with that.
I have not yet come acrossanyone who has really struggled
and then moved into a placewhere they're able to moderate
(35:10):
with success.
Also, generally speaking.
The way alcohol functions in ourbodies doesn't really lend
itself easily to moderationbecause, we develop a tolerance
to it and then we want more ofit.
So over time, that generallymoves in one direction.
I would say, for folks who havenever struggled with it and some
(35:34):
people are primed for addictionand others are not.
Sure.
Yeah.
Like maybe a glass of wine amonth or, very occasionally.
Great.
No problem.
From a risk perspective, therisk is very low.
All alcohol carries some levelof risk, but truly, if you're
having a single glass ofsomething every once in a while,
(35:55):
you're probably okay.
So if that's what we're talkingabout in terms of moderation.
Sure.
Sure.
I think some people can do that.
For the folks who have struggledwith addiction, I haven't really
seen it take shape
Lindsey (36:06):
successfully.
Yeah.
I feel like it gives you a paststill like for me, I could never
just have one glass of wine.
I could.
But I always wanted more, and Iwould drink more.
And if I wasn't drinking, Iwasn't thinking about it.
So I feel like for those peoplein the middle, moderation is
(36:26):
hey, it's you're tellingyourself, it's still okay, a
little bit.
But then I made a real and I waslike, Okay, let's just break
this down.
So if Like you said, alcohol isa group one carcinogen, right?
And so is nuclear radiation, andso is asbestos.
But we're not like, let's justmoderate our exposure to
(36:48):
asbestos and nuclear radiation.
Let's just try that out and seehow that goes.
No.
We want to eliminate all that.
But like, why did we do thiswith alcohol?
Okay, I can have a little bit, Ijust think I was never able to
do that.
I know Kelly wasn't able to dothat successfully.
And then it's added stress.
Like you say, you're only goingto have one or two drinks, but
(37:09):
then you go beyond that.
And then you're like, like Isaid this, but of course, every
time I break this promise tomyself, and now it's just that
added stress of I can't moderatewhat's wrong with me.
Oh my God, I can't just drinknormally.
So I just think eliminate.
Amy (37:24):
Yeah.
And for anybody who perhaps hasstruggled with drinking and
they're really wanting tomoderate, I guess I would just
ask why, so what is it?
What is the tie that stillconnects you to alcohol?
What is it that you're seeking?
And if it truly is about that,one single drink every once in a
(37:45):
while, which.
It's never been doing for you.
And that's the thing.
Yeah.
So what are you hoping to getout of that experience that you
feel you can't have if alcoholis without it.
Is alcohol actually deliveringon that experience for you?
So really what is it doing?
Do you need it?
What is the pull to still wantto do all the work to moderate?
(38:08):
Cause it's a lot of mental loadto be like, I can only have one
or I have to limit myself oronly then, or only at this time.
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
Lindsey (38:17):
It is exhausting.
A willpower thing like whenyou're trying to adjust your
eating habits to I think that'stied back to the belief thing
like what do you believe aboutit because are you gritting your
teeth and trying to use awillpower to only have that one
drink and moderate, or really goback and look at what do you
believe you're getting fromalcohol by having just the one
(38:38):
like what's the perceivedbenefits.
Right.
Amy (38:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, just dig in a little foranybody who's I really want to
do that.
Dig into that.
And see what you find, right?
Yeah.
No judgment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But just get curious about itand actually figure out does
this goal of moderation alignwith my other goals?
Yeah.
Tracey (38:58):
If you're trying to moderate, and you're feeling
like it's more work, or it'smore about restraining yourself,
and there's still that desire inyour mind, because this happened
to me, I could just have onedrink, but I would always
mentally want more.
So if you're moderating, and inyour mind, you're always
thinking about that one morethat should probably be a pretty
(39:21):
big red flag that you shouldn'tbe moderating.
When you lose that restraint andit's likely to happen.
It's just falling off the wagonwith an eating program too.
It's okay I can introduce backsugar because I haven't had it
for so long.
you have that 1 dessert.
How long is it going to be tillyou're having dessert regularly
or those cookies or thatchocolate?
I think for some people, it'sjust got to be an all or
(39:43):
nothing.
Agreed.
Amy (39:44):
Yeah.
Lindsey (39:45):
I wanted to switch gears a little bit here, Amy.
I have a last point that I wantto touch on before I ask you
where our listeners can findyou.
You also state that you're analcohol culture consultant and
educator with your company andyou support organizations and
companies in creating alcoholfree workspaces.
(40:07):
I'm sorry, what?
This is amazing.
This is the first that I've everheard of somebody doing this.
And I think this is reallyimportant.
So you're disrupting normativealcohol culture and reducing
harms that are caused by it.
So I've got a question for you.
How can you tell if yourworkplace is alcohol safe or
not?
Amy (40:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I actually have a quiz on mywebsite for organizations to
assess what their alcoholpractices look like.
Normative alcohol culture is aterm that I actually created so
that we can talk about all theways that we think about and
talk about and engage withalcohol.
(40:47):
alcohol has gone through.
a process that has made itincreasingly normalized in our
world.
So we no longer question it.
We no longer question if it'sactually working for us, if it's
in service to us.
I think that this is also truein corporate and organizational
environments.
Because so many people are incorporate or organizational
(41:09):
environments, I thinkorganizations are so well
situated to create A rippleeffect around alcohol and how
alcohol exists within theirorganization.
So some things that anorganization could look at if
they were interested in creatinga more alcohol safe environment
(41:30):
are you as an organizationgifting alcohol to employees?
Are you regularly hostingevents, mandatory or not in
places like wineries or bars isit an expectation that any kind
of client interactions or anykind of client entertaining
involved drinking one good onethat folks might not think to
(41:53):
look at, but our mental healthand alcohol related.
Claims that are going throughyour insurance or benefits
packages increasing are breastcancer claims increasing.
Cause we know that all of that,
Lindsey (42:06):
you're blowing my mind.
You're blowing my mind.
Yeah.
Lots and lots of organizationshave bars built into their
offices.
There is an expectation.
Of alcohol consumption duringoffice hours in your office
site.
Those are the types of things.
If you were interested increating a more alcohol safe
(42:27):
environment those are the typesof things that you could be
looking at to get a little bitmore information.
About what the alcohol cultureis within your organization.
I think it's really important toacknowledge that there are lots
of reasons that folks don'tdrink.
For myself, it's because Istruggled with addiction and
also I'm now so clear about whatalcohol is and I just have no
(42:49):
interest in putting it in mybody.
But there are lots of reasonsthat people don't and, for
Organizations that are global innature, they likely have
employees from all differentcultures, countries, religions
may or may not engage withalcohol in the ways that we do.
(43:10):
People don't drink for, culturaland religious reasons, people
don't drink for health reasons,pregnancy, whatever it is.
Not only from a perspective ofincreasing.
Employee and organizationalwellbeing and reducing harm, but
also increasing inclusion where,nobody is feeling like they're
missing out on something becausethey don't drink or feeling like
(43:34):
opportunities for networking andadvancement aren't available to
them because they don'tparticipate in alcohol culture.
There really are.
Really important pieces to lookat when it comes to alcohol and
organizational spaces.
I would also say in Canada, wehave an organization called the
Canadian Center on Substance Useand Addiction, and they provide
(43:57):
a lot of really helpful andinsightful data and reports for
us.
We know that alcohol costs allof us a lot of money in terms of
the burden it bears on ourhealth care system, on our legal
system, and on, financeessentially.
(44:18):
So we know that alcohol costsorganizations and all of us
Billions of dollars every singleyear.
When you're talking toorganizations and companies who
are interested in preserving thebottom line, take a look at what
your organization is doing withalcohol.
Do you have a regular budgetline for alcohol in your
(44:39):
organization?
And then how does that thenimpact things like absenteeism,
presenteeism, productivity, allthe things.
It's really interesting work andnot a lot of people are doing
it, but I think it's really, youare, Yeah,
Amy (44:55):
I'm trying.
Yeah.
Lindsey (44:56):
Oh my gosh.
I've never heard of anybodytackling alcohol.
And being alcohol free from thisangle.
And I think this is so needed.
Yeah, it really blew my mind.
Some of your posts on socialmedia.
Tracey (45:08):
It's very interesting.
I just want to speak to it froma flip perspective because I've
had this happen in my ownorganization where I think it
goes back to there's a sense offear of taking it away from
employees.
Amy (45:23):
Yeah.
Tracey (45:23):
As it's a benefit, right?
That they're offering thesethings at events and whatnot,
because I had a situation whereI was putting on a team builder
event for my team.
And one of the very firstquestions I was asked was,
they're going to be wine there.
I really think that there wassome members of my team because
(45:43):
it was voluntary, right?
It was after hours.
So it was voluntary.
It wasn't mandatory that theyattend that there was probably
people that wouldn't go if therewasn't going to be wine there.
Amy (45:54):
Yeah,
Tracey (45:54):
so I think there's a lot of pressure from the flip side
sometimes in organizations tohave those offerings based on
what we believe is so acceptedand normal in society.
Amy (46:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsey (46:11):
Then I would say you'd have to question your
organizational culture, yourvision, your mission and all of
that and take a look at that,right?
Because if you're anorganization that values health
and wellbeing for your staffinstead of wine, maybe, invest
those funds into gymmemberships, that's actually
going to be an actual benefit.
That's just my opinion.
Amy (46:32):
Yeah, no.
And I think that's legit.
And I agree the corporateenvironment and organizational
environment is very much anextension of the world we live
in and the normalization ofalcohol everywhere.
It's not even necessarily aboutsaying we're never going to
purchase alcohol or make itavailable, but maybe it's,
(46:53):
instead of going to that wineryfor the holiday party, maybe you
do choose something that, maybethere's alcohol there.
Maybe there isn't, but somethingthat feels more inclusive to
folks that give everybody anoption to participate.
And maybe, you do also look atso like the work that I do,
there's the education piece.
There's also because I'm acoach, there's the coaching.
(47:15):
So actually sitting down with, Clevel executives and talking to
them about the education piece,but also talking to them and
getting them on board with theshifts and the changes.
Then actually looking at policywithin that organization.
So change like this isn't justabout taking the alcohol away.
(47:35):
It's about.
Shifting awareness, shiftingeducation, changing policy, and
actually creating an environmentwhere alcohol or like drinking
in response to stress or copingbecause of a high stress work
environment isn't as neededbecause we've changed the
environment.
Lindsey (47:53):
I love that.
For anybody listening that wantsto have some one on one coaching
with you or do anything withtheir organization or workplace,
where can people find you onsocial media and where can they
find you online like a website?
Amy (48:10):
Yeah, so my website is HOL and well.
com and I'll spell that outbecause it's not what you think.
It's H.
O.
L.
A.
N.
D.
W.
E.
L.
dot com.
So that's my company I'm prettyactive on Instagram so you can
also find me there.
My handle is at Ms.
So Ms.
Amy C.
(48:30):
Willis, which is my name.
Either of those are a great wayto connect with me.
Lindsey (48:34):
I just absolutely love today's conversation, Amy, and
I'm so glad that we connectedand that you came on and talked
about all the things because,man, I just feel like some of
the things you're offering.
I've already looked at yourwebsite.
It's just so on point andlisteners go and follow Amy on
social media.
Follow her on Instagram.
She's amazing.
(48:55):
I have one last question, Amy,to close us out here.
What was your biggest surprisebenefit of getting sober?
Amy (49:02):
Yeah, I love that question.
I would say the level ofconfidence that I have.
Built it's interesting becausetoday in my master class, it was
all about confidence buildingand I talk about my own
experiences with getting soberand how sobriety is a perfect
container to build confidencebecause in my definition of
(49:25):
confidence.
It's the willingness to try notnecessarily being attached to
the outcome, but actually justtrying something new and in
doing so you learn some newskills, you learn something
about yourself, you build yourcompetence, which then
reinforces your confidence andit just becomes this cycle.
And I can't think of.
(49:46):
Anything better than sobrietythat invites you to try new
things repeatedly and continueto show up without actually
knowing how it's all going toshake out.
Yeah, I would say the confidenceI never would have guessed that
getting sober would have enabledme to become the most confident
version of myself.
Lindsey (50:03):
I freaking love
Amy (50:04):
that.
Yeah.
Lindsey (50:06):
I just fricking love that.
Yeah.
That is on point, Amy.
That is on point.
You're so awesome, Amy.
Oh my God.
I'm so glad we connected.
And I'm so glad that ourlisteners are able to just
experience this, like the vibehere or, Trace, did you have any
last thoughts?
I just wanted to say thank youso much.
What you're doing is amazing.
(50:27):
I love your approach and I thinkthat if any of our listeners
want to reach out, that you'redefinitely someone who can help
them out.
And yeah, I love the wholecorporate thing too.
Something I've never heard ofeither.
Love that you're tackling fromthat perspective.
Because to me, The more angleswe can tackle this at the
better, right?
(50:47):
So that's awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
It's been such a pleasure tomeet you and I'm so happy you
could come on and share yourstory with our listeners.
Amy (50:56):
Thank you for having me.
This has been great and I hopeit reaches folks and it is of
service.
They need to hear your message.
I think it's so important.
All right, everybody.
Oh, you're so welcome.
That is a wrap on today'sepisode, go and follow Amy
Willis on Instagram.
Don't forget to check out hercompany whole and well, spelled
(51:18):
H O L and W E L L.
We'll see you back here nextTuesday with a brand new
episode.
And until then, you guys knowwhat to do.
Keep laughing.
Kelly (51:31):
Thank you for listening.
Please give us a five starrating like and subscribe, share
on social media and tell yourfriends.
We love getting your feedbackand ideas of what you'd like to
hear on upcoming episodes of theLAF life podcast.
If you yourself are livingalcohol free and want to share
your story here, please reachout.
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