June 5, 2022 • 54 mins
Please join us today for a fantastic conversation with Rev. Dr. Angela Yarber. Her new book, Queering the American Dream is available now on Amazon or at your local bookstore. You can also purchase a copy at Angela's foundation: the Tehom Center, which provides a space to learn about and celebrate the lives of revolutionary women and goddesses. Angela's art and writing provide methods for learning about such women, and her Intentional Art Process invites people of marginalized genders to explore their own spiritualities in her courses and retreats. Learn more at https://tehomcenter.org.
Music provided by Purple Planet: https://www.purple-planet.com.
Music provided by Purple Planet: https://www.purple-planet.com.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
In this episode, we have aspecial guest, the Reverend doctor Angela Yarber.
You know when I hear RIV,I don't think, I think,
oh my god, chure, YeahI feel that. Yeah right. Angela's
spiritual journey is so interesting. It'snot at all threatening. So nobody be
(00:24):
scared. Do not turn off thepodcast. It is gonna be a great
interview of promise. Yes. Plus, she has an amazing cool new book
called Queering the American Dream, andwe're going to talk all about it.
Yes, yeah, so super queerfriendly, not scary religious, just putting
that out there. I'm pretty surewe will not discuss fire and brimstone.
(00:48):
Not a thing unless we're gonna roastmarshmallows some morse. I do all about
that fire and brimstone. Well,maybe that's awaiting us in our afterlife.
Some moors for everybody of it.Okay, help me in. Why don't
we take a quick break and getto the interview. Let's go all right,
be right back. Hey, everybody, welcome to Latter Day Lesbian,
(01:12):
the podcast about an ex Mormon gaygirl just trying to figure out her life.
My name is Mary, my nameis Shelley. So Shelley we have
a special guest today. We do. Yeah, this is so cool.
I'm not I can't even quite rememberhow we were turned on to Yeah,
weird wording turned on by Angela justcan't turn on to Angela. Sorry,
(01:34):
Angela, you're gonna have to dealwith us. We can't mean it's we
really can't. But uh, Idon't know, It's just it just seemed
like such an interesting story that Iwas like, we should have her at
So, yeah, I'm going tointroduce the Reverend doctor Angela Yarbor, and
I'm gonna go ahead and read herbio that I picked up on LinkedIn and
we were talking earlier, and she'slike, um, I think that's right.
(01:55):
I don't know. We're gonna giveit a shot, okay. So
Angela Yarbor is no award winning authorand artist. She's the executive director of
The Holy Women Icon's Project, anonprofit seeking to empower marginalized women by telling
the stories of revolutionary Holy women throughart, writing, and special events.
Through the nonprofit, she leads retreatsin addition to offering art exhibits, workshops,
(02:21):
lectures, and dynamic public speaking aroundthe world. She was a pastor
for fourteen years and continues to consultwith churches on queering worship, preaching,
and spirituality. And we're going tocircle back to queering worship because I want
to know more about that. Shewas a professor for Women's Gender and Sexual
Studies and Divinity School professor for overa decade. Her painting, writing and
(02:45):
work has been featured on NPR's ProgressiveSpirit, Maya Angelou's Memorial Celebration, and
the television show Tiny House Nation.That's really interesting. She is the author
of seven books, four of whichhave been included in the top lgbt Q
Christian books of their respective publication years. Whether it's painting, writing, leading
(03:06):
retreats, or public speaking, herwork endeavors to inspire and empower, offering
beautiful hope and creative justice in themidst of systems designed to disenfranchise and oppress
the marginalized. Nice up, giveit up. Welcome, Reverend doctor Angela
Yarbor. Thank you for being here, Thanks for having me. I appreciate
(03:27):
it. That's quite the intro itis. I'm realizing that's a long bio
there on LinkedIn. I'm realizing thatI need to update some of that are
the title of our nonprofit has shiftedto the Tahome Center t h oh Am
since I posted that, So that'sa good reminder to stay on top of
all the things that need updating.That's right, But it's still the same
(03:50):
project during the same work, justcalled the Tahome Center now rather than the
Holy Women Icons Project. What istahome refer to? Oh? To home
is a Hebrew word that means deepor depths, and it's I won't go
into the whole long etymology of theword, but it's the word used in
the Genesis Account for Jews and Christiansout of the depths God creates. And
(04:13):
it's this feminine term for the waterychaos or the depths, syncretized with the
Tiamat, which is a Babylonian creationgoddess. So all this like queer,
feminist Wiley stuff is embedded in thatone word. Very cool. Yeah,
well she's got some weird watery depthsgoing pretty sure. Ge Well she gave
(04:35):
birth to seven children. Oh ohyeah, yeah, I could do that.
I told you I was a Mormon. I mean, what do you
do excepts at home and have babies? Yeah, what are the ranges of
your your kiddos their ages. Theoldest is twenty two, the one that
disappoints my dad, like I wastelling you, because he lives with his
girlfriend. And then the youngest isabout to turn nine. Not fast enough.
(05:00):
Yeah, I got a lot oftime till retirement. Unfortunately. My
oldest is eight, so same age, and then my youngest is four.
Yeah. Oh you're hating it.You're hating hard right now. Oh yeah,
I love them so much, andit's so hard. It's so hard,
especially when you're trying to like queerparenting and subvert the status quo with
(05:20):
everything about families that makes it's wonderfuland good and challenging. Yeah, you
can't just turn them loose to thesystem. And I don't mean that in
like an anti system way, butjust I feel like they need more,
They need more shown to them thanwhat still is just out there in the
world teaching them about families and life. And yeah, no, I'm with
(05:42):
you on that for sure. Yeah, and don't just default to bullying,
because that's I feel like middle school, I mean even elementary school to a
degree, but definitely middle school inhigh school is so fraught with that need
to fit in. You're just lookingon the kid that's weaker than need to
pick up everyone. It's just thisinstinct that we all have. It might
be in little ways. For oldestis eight, don't freak her out.
(06:08):
Hey, Angela gets worse. Okay, that's trying to say, buckle up,
Angela. That's interesting. Mary andI were having a conversation yesterday.
She's never had kids, never beeninvolved in like kids stuff, really,
and so me having all these kids, it's difficult and it's difficult for me
too. And she's asked me,and it was yesterday like, how do
you do it? Aren't you justexhausted and crazy? And not my time?
(06:31):
I am. However, I lookback to the years where they were
all younger, like where you areright now, Angela, and I'm like,
oh, I know, it couldbe so much worse. I've been
through the worst. Yeah, Ifeel like we've just gotten out of some
of the really tough times and agesbecause now everyone can like feed themselves,
they can go to the bathroom bythemselves. That's huge. Those things really
(06:56):
make a big difference. Yeah,So I'm grateful for that and our process
of becoming a family and foster caresystems and adoption and unjust policies and all
of that have made becoming a familywith children really hard, and so I'm
grateful and raging and tired at thesame time. Oh yeah, yeah,
(07:19):
I'm sure. I was actually lookingin some articles as far as like,
when did it become I guess legal, sure, legal for a gay couple
or anything outside the norm to adoptchildren, And it's been relatively recent that
it's even allowed. For the longesttime, they couldn't adopt if they weren't
married, and of course marriage wasillegal for anyone except for straight folks.
(07:40):
So I know this has nothing todo with your book, but well it
does. It's interesting to me.How was it, How was it for
you adopting, because you just saidthere's struggles there. So for my son,
who is eight, we did anopen adoption, which meant that we
connected with his birth mother during pregnancy, and she's aw and is a huge
part of our lives still, andso is his birth father. But we
(08:05):
had done all of the adoption,home study, case study, all of
that stuff in my name when Iwas a pastor, and then that job
became really toxic. And this isall a part of the book. Wearing
the American Dream, so it tiesin, but the job became really toxic,
so I ended up quitting and thencalled my adoption agency, who is
their agency is the oldest with workingwith same sex couples in the entire country,
(08:26):
and so they get it. Andon the one hand they're like,
well, we're glad that you're honoringwho you are and all this, And
what this looks like legally is thata single person with a stranger living in
her home, who doesn't have ajob, is trying to adopt a child.
So we had to do the world'sfastest home study for my wife instead
(08:46):
of me, so she was ableto legally adopt him. I couldn't until
same sex marriage became legal, andthen it costs like four thousand additional dollars
and all of this extra invasive work. So that happened with our son,
and just a few years later,my daughter's only four and we adopted her
through foster care, and that camewith a host of traumas and really invasive
(09:07):
homesteady interviews for us. But someof the first things that were said when
we went into court the judge,the first thing he said was that our
two year old was fat oh mygod, and asked us what we had
been feeding her, and then madea joke about how complicated this was going
to be because there's no dad,why because it was my wife and I
(09:28):
and how he didn't know what tosay. And normally I'm a person who
would offer corrective, who would saysomething or call someone in, but here
we are waiting to see if he'sgoing to rule like in favor quote unquote
of us adopting our child. Sowe couldn't really say anything because of that
power dynamic. Yeah, you haveto sit there while he beats on you
and says rude things, and it'slike whatever you say, whatever you say,
(09:52):
because you want your child. Ohass truly was he old and white?
I'm just throwing that out, yes, And this was in this was
in Hawaii. So in Hawaii,like if you're white, you're called a
hawe yes, And the essence ofbeing a halle is also being kind of
like a dumb holle. And sohe encapsulated the essence of what that word
means in every possible way. AndI just remember us and our social worker
(10:16):
and our attorney all looking at eachother like with our eyes enormously why thinking
what on earth is wow ass hatsaying? And how does he get to
make family decisions? Like exactly howis even allowed to talk to people's right
like, oh, I'm so sorry? How old was your daughter? And
was she in the room? Shewas in the room, and so is
(10:37):
my son? Did they hear that? They did? I don't know if
they quite registered it. And atthat point, my son, I think,
had experienced a couple negative things fromkids who you know, didn't understand
that you could have a two momfamily and said, oh, that's gross
or something like that. But onthe whole, my kids have had pretty
(10:58):
good experiences around that kind of thing, and that's part of because of the
people that we've chosen to surround ourselveswith. Yes, yeah, so we
feel really really lucky about the chosenfamily, the o'hana that we've created.
Yeah, how long ago was itthat you were in the courthouse with your
two year old daughter and this guysaid those horrible things? Oh it was
(11:18):
only two and a half years ago. Yeah, so it's not like it's
nineteen fifty seven. People, getyour shit together, come on, truly,
truly, And what's infuriating is thatso many times if you were to
share that story. A lot ofstraight folks would say, oh, well,
you know, oh, no bigdeal, it's right, you know,
(11:39):
it's just one comment. But thething is, and that's not even
a microaggression, but it's an exampleof these little underhanded slights that happen all
the time, and they're like deathby a thousand paper cuts, absolutely,
you know, and you don't reallyknow how to defend yourself against those kinds
of things because you're you're stuck wondering, like this guy really say that?
(12:01):
Yes, man, I'm so sorry, And you know you're right about straight
people, wouldn't. I mean,the straight people might feel bad for you,
but whatever, it's not their problem. But it is the straight people.
I think they need to stand upand call out these howlies and be
like, hey, man, no, because he's not he's not going to
care if you say it. Heobviously doesn't respect you anyway, So it
(12:22):
needs to be his peers. Idon't know exactly exactly, And they were
all in a weird power dynamic too, because you know, they were the
social workers and the attorneys, andultimately he was the one who you know,
got to make that decision. Butnevertheless, my daughter is with us.
Yay, safe and well, sogood. I'll count that as a
(12:43):
win. But but yet another exampleof how we have to actively queer what
it means to be family, toqueer what it means to be pretty much
anything these days, because the selfis at odds with everything around it.
Yes, well that is kind ofa good segue because I kind of feel
like we're burying the lead here.It just got so good. I couldn't
(13:03):
help. Mary's always like the lead. And I'm also talk about this the
judge. I mean, we're hereultimately to discuss Angela's new book called Queering
the American Dream. Yeah, Maryneeds to read some ship that we can
go back to talking. Mean youokay, Angela? Mary, so you
keep using that. It's so great. It's like queering this queering that is
(13:24):
that? Would that be an adjectiveat that point? Yes, right,
that's a verb? Okay, drYeah, I feel like we're all losing
the English language as we know it. Let's let me just text an emoji
to convey all of my emotions,the queer flag, and we know we
need do you say any actual words? Well, what's interesting is that,
(13:48):
like you know, queer can beused in so many different ways. But
the queering I think of that quoteof the Late Bell Hooks where she said,
I don't want to mess up thequote, but the essence of it
was queer, not so much aswho it is that you're sleeping with,
though that can be a part ofit, but queer as the self that
is at odds with everything that isaround it. And then you have to
(14:11):
create and invent and imagine places tosurvive and thrive. And so I think
in that way, queering obviously appliesto everyone in the LGBTQIA plus alphabet soup
community, but it also applies toothers who are at odds with everything that
is around us. And when theself is at odds, I believe,
(14:31):
like in my book and Queering theAmerican Dream, when the self is at
odds with this farce of a dreamwhere we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps
and slap on a good Southern womansmile, you know, and make our
own dream like that, when allthe systems are designed to disenfranchise you,
it just doesn't work right, andso we have to subvert and overturn and
(14:54):
dismantle and ultimately queer that dream.So that it's expansive enough for everyone.
I love that. Well, beforewe get into the book, let's go
let's go back a little bit andtalk about you. Our listeners are probably
like, way, mate, whois this person and it's a friend we're
chatting with and having coffee in themorning. It doesn't feel like that.
(15:15):
Yeah, that's kind of how weroll. Okay, So let's back up
before you were a reverend or adoctor. Let's just talk about Angela for
a minute. I'd love to hearabout your background. You did not grow
up religious, is that correct?Right? Okay, it's correct. You
chose that at some point. WHOA, why did you just throw that down?
(15:39):
Let's hear more about that. Becauseyou identify as queer, that's right,
and you're married to a woman,that's right. Okay, So let's
hear about that story, your journeyto becoming ordained. So I don't come
from a religious family, although Idid grow up in the Southeast and so
I was in the Bible Belt.It was present and everything that we did.
Because as when I was living ina government subsidized living place, there
(16:03):
was like a van that came andpick up kids and brought them to vacation
Bible school. So I had thatlike evangelical quote unquote saved experience. Because
of that, I could sing vacationBible songs with you all day long.
You know, deep and what deepand what? I'm a fountain flowing deep.
(16:23):
Y'all sound weird. Oh, there'sso many, this little light of
mine, I'm gonna let it.You know that one too, I'm sure,
of course. Abraham head Man,he's on Man's on Sarah. There's
so many. Mother and the concubine. Don't forget the concubine and the bastard
(16:45):
child, the bastard child who foundedIslam. Wait, that's not it's not
a left those parts out, sure, exactly exactly. Y'all had to be
the patriarchs. No patriarchs present,that's right. So I wasn't raised in
a religious home, working poor family, and had this plan as a high
(17:07):
schooler to go into the performing arts, and I did end up being a
professional dancer for a number of yearswhile simultaneously being clergy. So wow,
the dancing reverend. Truly, I'massuming it was not exotic dancing. It
could be role dancing. No,there's lots of money to be made there,
but whatever that's true. They passedthe play. They passed the play
(17:29):
the plate. Now that sounds likea very subversive liturgy. I kind of
want to design that absolutely. SoI ended up going to this conservative though
I didn't know that at the timebecause I didn't know anything about Christianity,
this conservative Christian church because they hada rock climbing wall and I was interested
in rock climbing. So they kindof like hooked, you know, teenagers,
(17:53):
and that's a good one. Andin that I had a really conservative
religious experience that I called Jesus ismy boyfriend, and so I did that
where I kind of fell in lovewith Jesus. My sister was in love
with Jesus, and one of yourgirlfriends was, and that's why you lost
her. I did lose a girlto Jesus. Yep. And at that
(18:15):
point I wasn't out to myself orto anyone else. I didn't even have
the framework. How old were you, I'm sorry, I was sixteen seventeen.
So instead of planning on heading toJuilliard and you know, creating a
life on the performing arts, itwas this pivotal time in my life where
the ministers at that church sat medown and said, the performing arts,
(18:37):
the arts, those bring glory toyou and not to God. Do them?
So yes, I ended up goingto a small liberal arts college that
was associated with Baptists, but luckilythe religion department there was moderate, so
I wouldn't say progressive. One ofthem was progressive. They kind of pulled
(18:57):
me aside and said, you know, this version of Christianity that was handed
to you, that's not the onlyversion. There are lots of different versions
and lots of different ways to bea person of faith. I ended up
becoming the youth minister at his churchwhere his children were youth at the ripe
age of eighteen, so wise tobe a youth minister then. And they
(19:18):
also said, you know, wedon't know anything about dance or the arts,
or that's not our thing. Butif those are your skills and your
talents and your loves, and youalso have this love for faith, why
don't you put the two together.So that started this long journey for me
of looking at the connections between thearts and dance, believe it or not,
which has a very rich history inthe Christian tradition, but that's completely
(19:38):
erased strategically erased by most people inpower right, And so through that process
I ended up becoming ordained, goingto seminary, and then going to do
a PhD. But all along theway I realized in my preaching and serving
churches that my language was really shiftingfrom I believe to we believe to the
(20:00):
Christian tradition teaches us. Because myown theology was morphing from a theology more
to a philosophy, especially as Iexplored more of goddess traditions from around the
world and interfaith dialogue. And sothat's more where I reside now. I'm
still ordained, but I say Ihold my ordination with an open hand,
so it could be revoked. Butno one has tried to do that yet.
(20:23):
Oh so that's a thing they couldjust say, like, nope,
we're going to take that away fromyou. It could be, but because
there is not a centralized hierarchy inthe Baptist Church, it makes it a
bit more complicated because you're ordained bya particular faith community, and so that
particular faith community, we need togather together the twelve men who served on
(20:45):
my ordination council and have them calledtogether their own I don't know synod of
sorts to say that they should revokemy ordination, and I do have clergy
who have since renounced their ordination,and I've toyed with that idea, But
instead I think of the myriad queerwomen who have come before me and who
are still seeing me, who've neverseen a representation like that, And so
(21:08):
I choose to keep it kind ofon behalf of the communities that I represent,
and see that as really important.Yeah. Yeah, well, in
Mormonism, you don't have to beordained at all, but you can lead
a congregation. Well you got tobe a man. Oh well, of
course you have to be a man, but yeah, you could be like
a local plumber or electrician or somethinglike, Hey, you look like you
could lead this entire congregation. You'reyou're in charge, quite realize, Oh
(21:32):
yeah, there it's um. Ohno, it's a calling from God.
Yes, let's not forget that.Yeah. No one has to go to
like preacher school. You just preachyour school, random guy, and they
need seminary. They lead someone tolead a congregation, so they're like,
oh God wants you. You don'tget paid or anything. You just have
to give all your time, andthe bishop can be a dentist, a
plumber, whatever, and then he, somehow, because God's mantle is now
(21:56):
on him, has the ability tocounsel people. Yeah, that's so crazy.
Seriously. Okay, yeah, it'slike getting the worst therapy of your
life and you think that you thinkthat what he's saying is from God talking
about screwing people up. Yeah,it's horrible practice. Well, and I
feel like I knew that about therole of bishops, but I assumed that
it functioned like it does in mostdenominations where they had a training. No.
(22:19):
No, the bishop's training is basicallyhere's the manual, which means like,
here's here's the punishments you dole out. Like I remember, I know
it's not about me, but whenI was sixteen, I had had sex
with my boyfriend and so I wentinto the bishop with all the guilt and
shame and told what had happened.And he literally got the handbook from his
shelf, set it down. Itwas like he was going, let see
(22:41):
for anication, for anication. Okay, you yeah, you are this fellowship
for six months. You cannot takethe sacrament. You need to come in
and meet with me as it.There was no like say three Hail Mary's.
Yeah, and our father and mostMormon, I'm gonna say most when
they go into their bishop, it'slike they're looking for spiritual guidance and family
(23:04):
guidance. And these guys have noclue. They're just like, oh,
well, you know, and it'stheir opinions. Well, if you would
be intimate with your husband more thanhe would treat you better. I mean,
I've heard horror stories. Oh sopredatory, isn't it. Yes,
yeah, so, Shelly, thissounds like a good time for a break.
(23:26):
I agree. We'll be right back. We are back anyway. Now
I'm not the guest being interviewed,but I haven't put that out there.
Back to you, Angela, backto our guests. Yeah, So how
old were you when you went throughseminary, became ordained around that time,
and then when did you kind ofback out slowly? Well, I was
(23:48):
only twenty two when I was ordained, So I was in seminary from age
twenty two to you know, forthree years, so till twenty five,
and then started my PhD. SoI was really young. I went directly
from high school to college to seminaryto PhD program and then finished all that
at twenty nine. You like school, Yes, I do. It occupied
(24:11):
all of my twenties, and Ido love learning still, but I'm glad
that I don't want to now I'mthe professor who gets to take papers rather
than write the papers for someone elseto grade. And I would say that
I started moving away even as Iwas being ordained, but it wasn't a
moving away at that point of faith. It was of even at the point
(24:33):
of ordination, I didn't have anytraditional views, like my views were not
seen as orthodox, and I evenremember talking about that on my ordination committee.
Because it was a relatively progressive groupof people, A lot of their
ideas weren't orthodox either, and sobelieving things like Jesus was a revolutionary and
(24:55):
maybe not necessarily the son of God, those kind of things we're okay,
wow, right, Even the feministtheology side of things was affirmed by this
group of twelve men. That's prettyamazing, actually, yeah. But then
it kept moving farther and farther andfarther to where I was wondering, well,
(25:15):
you know, I don't I don'tknow if there is a god doing
the calling, and I definitely believeJesus was a historical figure and still today
quite the revolutionary who did a lotof subversive queer stuff. I wouldn't call
him a son of God because Idon't know if there's a God who exists.
I think that we've constructed lots ofversions of goddesses that I think are
(25:37):
very compelling and meaningful. But Ialso don't come down on a firm line
to say that I'm an atheist oran agnostic, because that's a little too
wishy washy, And then an atheistis a little too firm. So do
you check that spiritual but not religiousbucks pretty much? Yes, I would
definitely do that. Yeah, Ilike it. I have such similar viewpoints
(25:59):
to you, and I love theidea of Jesus being queer. Let's just
go ahead and say he was,because like did he definitely? Was he
more into Mary Magdalen or was hemore into John Beloved right right? Exactly
and exactly? And he raised Lazarusfrom the dead, so he must have
thought he was pretty special. I'mjust saying exactly, but I agree completely,
(26:21):
and so many of the things thathe did fall into this category of
queering the self that is at oddswith everything around it, and so flipping
over tables and being friends with theoutcasts and the tax collectors and sex workers
like those weren't everyday ordinary things thatrabbis did, though there are plenty of
(26:41):
fabulous rabbis today to do. Butat that time, you know, this
was quite subversive. And in thatway, I would use the term queering
almost almost hand in hand with theterm subversive, And in that way,
I do think that Jesus as aperson, as a historical figure was very
subversive. Sure, I love thatpeople, and I'm just learning this,
(27:04):
it's actually okay to take the versionof Jesus that you were taught in some
of these hardcore religions and still likehave a love for Jesus, but an
understanding of who he was not,you know, because it was hard for
me leaving Mormonism because I had this, I had this connection to Jesus just
(27:25):
because like that's when you're raised inJesus and the Manger and he loves you
and blah blah. So when Ileft Mormonism was hard to kind of like
toss Jesus. But the more Ithought about how I was raised, who
Jesus was yeah, I'm like,hit the door Jesus, you know,
God's son and blahl, Like thewhole thing was just this ugly, patriarchal,
growdy thing to me. But nowlike listening to you talking about no,
(27:47):
Jesus, he was a rebel,you know, and he hung out
with these people, probably wasn't eventhe son of God. Like that sits
nicely with me to still have thatperson in my mind of someone to be.
I think about the cool stuff thathe did, but get rid of
the guilt and shame that he diedfor my sins and every time my sin
he cries, and you know,all that horrible stuff. So yeah,
(28:11):
wait, you don't believe Jesus wasa demigod whose celestial father had sex with
a teenager to create him. Youdon't believe all that was right and that
was hard. I love Jesus,but story I don't like. I love
Jesus, but the rape path?Why do we believe that? Why do
any of us believe that? Itdoesn't even make sense to me what you
have bought that? And in Mormonism, if I were to go in for
(28:34):
my worthiness interview, which is basically, if I can get a temple recommend,
which means I can go to thetemple, which means I could be
saved. So if I don't dothis, I don't get saved, I
don't get my family. The plumberslash head of the church gets to interview
her and decide if she gets tobe saved or not. Yes, so
what exactly? And there's a listof questions and one of them is,
um, I'm misquoting it, butit's like, do you believe that Jesus
(28:55):
is the son of God? Blahblah blah. If I were to say
no, like I love Jesus blahblah, but I don't think he was
a literal son of God. Sorry, you can't go to the temple,
meaning you can't be saved, meaningwhen you die, you are separated from
your family, Like you have tohave this exact version of Jesus. And
finally, like this realization, likeI don't actually have to have their version
of Jesus. And so I lovehearing you say this, like this is
(29:17):
my version of Jesus and it kicksass. I love that. Thank you
for sharing that. Totally. Ipersonally feel like we have all been taught
that Jesus is like a demigod becauseof ancient Greek and Roman mythology. It
was fitting in with that whole mindset. Wasn't it Constantine that tried to get
everybody on the same page and changechange the Holy Day to Sunday because that's
(29:41):
when the Pagans were worshiping, andhe wanted everyone to let's all get along
here with our religions, oh andvote for me. Right. We never
see anything like that today, No, that would never happen. How did
queerness fit in to this whole oldjourney with the church and becoming ordained and
(30:02):
your belief in Jesus, etc.Well, I was not out to myself
or to anyone else when I wasordained. In fact, at that point
I was engaged to marry a manalong the way realized that's not going to
work, and it wasn't even becauseI quite realized that I was queer at
that point, even though I knewI wasn't super into him like sexually.
(30:25):
So instead of getting married on ourwhat would have been our wedding day,
I spent I was in the MiddleEast doing research on interfaith dialogue. As
you do, Yeah, exactly.I think I was dancing with whirling Dervishes
in Syria around the time that Iwas supposed to be, you know,
walking down the aisle that's called Angeladodges a bullet. Yes, that's your
(30:49):
next book, by the way,you're welcome. Oh perfect, I love
that a bullet and instead dances withthe dervishes as you do, as you
do. So I didn't end upcoming out until I moved to Berkeley,
California. How cliche, that'll doit, and I met my wife there,
the person I'm still with today,and was doing my PhD and also
(31:15):
teaching where queerness was huge. Thiswas at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley,
which is associated with UC Berkeley,and a host of the seminaries attached
to it are either nondenominational or UnitarianUniversalist or Disciples of Christ UCC more progressive
denominations where queerness is affirmed but notsimply affirmed, but also like celebrated.
(31:40):
Yeah, and so a big numberof my students identified as queer. It
was my first time with my knowledgeencountering trans folks. I had never met
anyone who was trans to my knowledgeup until that point, and so being
exposed to and learning about with gratitudeand openness. The queer community also helped
(32:01):
me realize that the desires and yearningsof my own heart lived there as well.
And so even though I feel likeit's super cliche that the girl from
Georgia moves to California and then comesout as queer, that was indeed my
experience. I think I saw thaton a Hallmark movie. Was that was
(32:22):
the story one only recently? Right, it was just a flash Christmas.
Right. I was about to say, it's been like the past couple of
years where they're like, let's makequeer holiday movies. Yes, was there
a reindeer out of a stable somewhereand the girlfriend had like a beautiful lab
(32:42):
puppy in that one together? Andthe old man who's the school custodian turns
out to be Santa. Yeah,sure, pretty sure that's how it went.
Yes, it was a big cityof small town. Oh yeah,
exactly. They're probably listening in andnext year we're gonna sit down. Here's
(33:05):
the screw. I haven't done theschool custodian angle yet. We'll have to
do that exactly, and we're like, where are royalty go to court?
I just know it, that's funny. I'm hoping we don't get that judge
that I have, right, Ithink we've gotten to the point in this
(33:27):
discussion where I want to entro yourbook unless there's something else to the book.
I think we're finally to the book, unless there's something else you want
to discuss about your background and sortof how you got I mean, there's
so many questions. I mean,at what point did you start writing literature?
It was during my PhD program becausemy first book ended up being my
dissertation, and so all of myprevious books before this one, before Queering
(33:52):
the American Dream were academic books.Well, and then I had one coloring
book because I'm an artist too,so that doesn't come It would be for
my children, yea Holy Women Iconscontemplative coloring book. But prior to that
it was all academic publishing. Sothis is my first foray into memoir,
into commercial publishing. So this isreally new for me, in a new
(34:15):
way of writing. I'm both reallyexcited and thrilled about it, and a
little nervous too. Do you enjoyit though, I mean clearly, oh
yes, I love it. Ido. I see it. I'm very
lucky that my jobs are painting andwriting, and they're also my spiritual practices,
the methods of self care. Andso I do sincerely pinch myself on
(34:37):
a pretty regular basis that the thingsthat I really love doing it to be
my work. That's cool, that'sawesome. Well, I was going to
read just a short blurb from nearthe beginning of the book. Please,
okay, Well, let's let's justdive into it. This is an excerpt
from Queering the American Dream. Andthere's a link in the show notes to
(34:58):
be able to order this book.And I'll repeat this at the end in
case anyone was like, where doI get that? Again? You have
to copy and paste the link intoa browser window. Unfortunately, our podcast
host doesn't let you just click itjust a little fyi there. People have
been like, your link is notclickable, Like, I know, that's
unfortunate, But this excerpt says howin the hell did we get here?
(35:21):
It should be just a travel memoir, not a eulogy. For eighteen months,
my wife, Toddler, and Iroamed the country as my brother's addiction
morphed into a bigger and bigger beast. In this meandering travelation, nice word
turned a funeral narrative. The lives, legends and legacies of the revolutionary holy
(35:43):
women I paint and write about wereand continue to be my guides. They
are how I survived this, andI believe they can help you survive and
thrive too, no matter your griefor loss. So there's a lot going
on in that statement. You weretraveling. You were traveling around the world
(36:06):
at that point, around the country, around the culture and the United States.
Okay, and what was going onwith your brother? So, my
brother or my late brother he's sincedeceased, was an addict for a good
portion of his life, and atthis point in time, he was addicted
to duster, which a lot ofpeople aren't familiar with. It's when you
(36:27):
inhale computer duster. Yeah, anytimeyou do it, it's called sudden sniffing
syndrome. It can just cut offthe connection between your brain and your body
and kill you anytime. So eachtime you do it is like a game
of Russian roulette. And at thebeginning of our travels, we thought that
he was just struggling with something,but we didn't know what. And a
(36:51):
midway through our full time travel,we learned what it was and had never
heard of that, and we're tryingto get him into rehab. He didn't
want to go to a faith basedrehab, and all of the ones that
our family could afford are faith basedand rooted in twelve step programs. Also
a lot of rehabs, when yougo in, you have to test positive
or some kind of a drug oralcohol, and he can't because computer duster
(37:15):
doesn't make you test for anything,because it's not made to be a drug,
right, And so getting him treatmentwas incredibly challenging, and so we
left on this adventure the day theSupreme Court ruled our marriage legal, and
for eighteen months, the intent wasdiscernment, traversing the American landscape to see
(37:36):
where we might end up and plantroots to form this retreat center. But
along the way, because of mybrother's addiction, it kind of enveloped what
we were experiencing, and so itwas impossible for me not to experience the
world and these travels and even theserevolutionary women that were traveling alongside of me
in the forms of paintings, tonot experience them through the lens of my
(37:59):
brother's addiction and then subsequent death fromthat addiction, and throughout it all he
ended up spending upwards of twenty thousanddollars on computer duster and essentially, you
know, dusted himself to death.Wow. Sorry, that's tragic. It
is he died when he was onlythirty three years old and had experienced a
(38:22):
hell of a lot of trauma beforethat, and had a family who loved
him, and we did everything thatwe could. But loving an addict is
really really hard because of someone,especially someone who does not want to get
help or whose addiction prevents them fromtrying to get help. And so it
breaks my heart still. It's almostfive years ago now that he died,
(38:44):
and it breaks my heart, especiallyfor my mother. Absolutely. The book
opens with me officiating his funeral.Wow, you officiated his funeral. That
must have been not easy. No, it was not easy at all.
And I'm very fortunate that I hada lot of clergy colleagues and others who
offered to officiate and who offered tohelp. But the thing is is I
(39:06):
didn't trust anyone else with I didn'twant addiction to be the only memory of
him. He was the first fullperson, right, and I didn't trust
anyone else with the rituals and lamentationsand words for honoring someone like him,
and it ended up being a verysmall family affair for a host of reasons.
(39:27):
But yes, that's how the bookopens and then goes back in time
to when the Journey Journey began,and at the very beginning there, we
didn't really know anything was going onwith him, So it was just kind
of my wife and my toddler andme, and we're footloose and fancy free,
you know, kind of like gallivantingthrough the woods in rural Vermont.
Yeah, let's take another quick breakand a more booze. We'll wrap this
(39:52):
up. So, Shelly, Iknow you know first hand that nothing says
I'm an apostate like drinking coffee,And no one says that better than apostate
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(40:38):
check out and get ten percent offyour order. Oh it's like you get
a full tie back with every purchase. Do it and we're back Hello.
So this book is a memoir essentially. What inspired you to write a memoir?
Well, I've always loved travel memoirs. That has been my kind of
(40:58):
like armchair travel, my go towhen I want to read something that's just
for fun, because as an academic, so often i'm reading for research and
not just reading for fun. Sothere was that piece of things, and
that's what I thought from the outset. But then as my brother's addiction got
worse and worse, and then ashe died, I wanted to honor him,
and I wanted to provide hope forother people who are struggling with addiction,
(41:21):
to see that there are ways out. And then alongside that, because
you've got my story. But thenin each phase along the way, there
are these different revolutionary women from historyand myth whose stories that I share,
and so part of it is alsoto give an even bigger platform and to
shout their stories from the rooftops andsay, it's not just my family who
(41:44):
queered the American dream, but theyare all of these amazing I keep using
the word revolutionary, but that's thebest word for them, revolutionary women who
have queered this dream throughout history.And if we follow in their footsteps,
if we heed their wisdom, thenwe can kind of, as we talked
about at the beginning, go backto making this dream expansive enough for all
people. And how did each ofthe women that you chose to be part
(42:07):
of this story play into it?Like how did you select them, and
how are they pivotal to different partsof this book. It's really interesting because
I've painted or created assemblage art forabout one hundred and fifty women from history
and mythology, and about one hundredand twenty one twenty one hundred and thirty
(42:29):
or so of those are sold inhomes and galleries throughout the world. But
at the time that we were leaving, I think I had about one hundred
in the collection and there were onlyabout sixteen left, and I had a
couple shows along the way as wewere traveling. So what I did was
I packed up those actual paintings sothe paintings of the women in this giant
green tuppaware container and it was storedin the storage compartment of our pop up
(42:52):
camper traveling all over and then wehad these really wild experiences, like in
rural Vermont where the binge stored andI randomly, as a campground host,
meet a couple who loves folk artand we call my iconography folk feminist iconography,
and so they're going on and onabout how they love it, and
I say, well, I'm I'mactually a folk artist, and looking at
(43:15):
images on my phone wasn't enough forthem. So we end up hauling out
the green tupaware beIN and like hanginga pop up show on the birch trees,
and they end up purchasing some ofthe pieces and we hiked them down
to their camps and just kind ofwild stories like that. And then some
of them were the roles of thewomen, like Polly Murray, for example,
(43:36):
who was the first African American womanordained as an episcopal priest. But
before that she was a civil rightsattorney who coined the phrase Jane Crowe to
acknowledge the sexism that accompanied racism atJim Crow Laws she also didn't have the
language for it at that time,but was queer and was likely gender nonconforming
or transgender. So here she isthis woman who's criminated against for her race,
(44:01):
her gender, her gender identity,and her sexuality, right and all
of these profound rays who writes abook that Thurgood Marshall called the Bible of
the civil rights movement. And Iam teaching about her and writing about her
and showing her painting when I'm inrural Virginia and seeing Confederate flags flying everywhere
(44:22):
that are hampering the otherwise gorgeous likeautumnal glory from the gorgeous mountains and trees.
And so there's just different women whokind of come to the forefront of
the travels because of things that werehappening in the world at the time,
or because of the location of wherewe were traveling. Wow. Yeah,
So it sounds like the locations correspondedto the women's stories that you are also
(44:45):
painting about and then writing. Absolutely, that's cool. So what is the
sort of takeaway that you would likereaders to know when they read the book?
What are they going to get outof it? Potentially? My hope
is that they'll leave both inspired andempowered and perhaps more than that, galvanized,
like to go forward and queer theirown dream and subvert and dismantle all
(45:12):
of these dreams that are handed tous as what the status quo is,
the way that we have to liveand have to be, and say,
you know, that's not working forme, and that's not working for most
people. Actually, that it's theseare dreams and status quo that disenfranchise the
marginalized and erase the voices of somany who deserve to be heard. And
so to reimagine, to invoke radicalimagination of what it means to live and
(45:37):
be and embody your dream in theworld. Yeah, I guess that's my
next question for you. What doesqueering the American dream mean to you personally?
That's a really great question. Iwould say that it means for my
family in particular, that the waythat we were living and the dreams that
(46:00):
were kind of passed down to usas the way that we need to be,
the family living in a big housewith the white picket fence and you
know, two point five children andall of that. That that's designed by
a system and a structure that's rootedin white supremacist sis, heteropatriarchy, to
throw the big woke words out there, and that it's not a system that
(46:22):
works for my family and that worksfor most people, and so we want
to dismantle it and reimagine something better, to reimagine a better world, and
to say that that world isn't justoff there yonder by and by, but
here now on earth, in thepresent, for us and for the people
that we care about, and forindeed all people. That's great. And
(46:44):
one percent of the proceeds from booksales go to support your foundation. That's
the Tea Home Center. Am Isaying that correctly? Tay Home? Okay,
Tay Home. So what's interesting isthat all of the money goes to
two different charities. One is aremy publisher, Parsons Porch. They are
a nonprofit publishing house whose motto isbooks to bread, and so everything that
(47:07):
goes to them goes to help feedhungry families. They're in Cleveland, Tennessee,
so in that area. And thenall of my author royalties that typically
go to the author go directly tothe Tahome Center to help empower marginalized women
by teaching about these revolutionary women throughart writing, and special events. That's
amazing, cool, thank you,Yeah, yeah, tell us more about
(47:29):
that center. How does that work? Sure? So it started off well,
the work of the center with theserevolutionary women in art and in writing
has been going on for well overa decade with me, but we didn't
become an official nonprofit until about fiveyears ago on Hawaii Island, and then
it moved here with us and wewere first incorporated as the Holy Women Icons
(47:50):
Project, And after a while werealized we aren't just a project, We're
a center. And also that nameis quite a mouthful, and so we
ended up that we are the toHome Center, which means deeper depth,
so a center for deep spirituality anda place where marginalized women can come to
find a breath for self care,where people can come to learn more about
(48:14):
social justice issues, and then wherewe lift up these stories of revolutionary women
from history and myth. That's reallyour primary goal, and that's both in
painting and in writing. And thenthose modalities come out in the retreats that
we lead, the courses that weteach, workshops and things like that.
How do people find out more ifthey want to come to a retreat,
(48:35):
is that something that's open to anyonereally or absolutely yes, So they could
check out our website that's home Center, that's t h O M Center so
C E n t R dot orgorg and check out what we're doing.
They can also follow us at theto home Center on Facebook, Instagram,
Twitter. We're kind of on allof them. I still haven't learned TikTok,
(48:59):
but maybe one day we keep tryingtoo and it escapes us. One
of these days we'll get it,and then we'll help you get it too.
Might be perfect perfect. I hopethat my young in turn was gonna
help me figure that out, butshe's one of the rare gen zs who's
like, I don't get it eitherone exactly. So any of those platforms,
(49:20):
we also have an email list thatthey can sign up on through to
homecenter dot org, and that's alsowhere they can go and purchase the book,
or anywhere books are sold actually isa great place to to get it,
or even at your local library.If you don't have the funds to
buy it, you can ask librariesto order it for you, and most
of the time they will no nice. That's why I say, even if
you can buy it, go inthere and tell your library to order it.
(49:43):
So that's there for others. Absolutely, we did this interview with some
book people. There's a better wordto that. Now. These are the
people who collect them and put themin packs. Flight, Oh, curators,
curators, that's Oh, it wascalled our shelves. Our shelves.
Yeah, it's through kid books.They curate diverse kids books. Yeah,
yeah, so how cool. Yeah, because they're so hard to find.
(50:06):
And the issue is they're hard tofind because no one requests them. It
libraries, well, no one requeststhem because they don't know they exist,
because they're not in the library.So it's this cycle of like they're out
there, but no the libraries willorder because nobody requests them. No one
requests them because they don't know theyexist. So that was why I'm saying,
go into your library regardless and say, hey, can you get this
book so it can start to bepublicly available there. That was my Absolutely,
(50:29):
that was her little spiel. Ilove it. I love that spiel.
Thank you, thank you. Whathave we left out? What else
would you like our listeners to know? To be honest, I feel like
we have covered a whole lot alot together. I definitely want people to
know that the work of the homeCenter can't happen in a vacuum. It
(50:50):
can't just be me doing it.It has to be this amazing community,
the community that I call the SubversiveSisterhood of Saints I love around the world,
who you know, who lives upthese stories together, and so the
more folks get involved, the better. So I imagine there's a way to
donate right on your website. Absolutely, absolutely, We're always happy for donations.
(51:10):
And where do the retreats happen rightnow? Since we moved from Hawaii,
our most recent retreat, which wasa pilot retreat called Queering the Dream,
happens here in the Saint Pete,Florida area, which was recently ranked
for the second year in Ago asthe top beach in the United States.
So that's a lovely place to holiday. Yeah, so that's not that far
(51:31):
or drive for us. We didthat last year. I'm you know,
it's away. It is quite thedrive. I mean, it's pretty,
but that's pretty far. Okay,Well, the Tampa International Airport is only
thirty minutes away. There you goa quick ride, and so we offer
those here and then we also offersome online retreats, including some free ones.
(51:54):
On the website, there's access toa free seven day online self care
retreat, just that we've been offeringthroughout the pandemic because I don't know about
you, but I think we allneed some serious self care right now,
especially that kind of like radical selfcare for collective good. Yes, so
we have those available as well.That's great. Well, gosh, Angela,
(52:15):
thank you so much. This hasreally been a very very interesting conversation.
We really appreciate you coming on theshow. Mary. You didn't tell
me she was so awesome. Ohokay, I god, no idea.
I'm like, oh no, anotherShe's like when she say you unwrap,
you find that out after you unwrapping. That's so nice. Good blushing over
(52:37):
here. Good thing. This isa podcast and not a video. We'll
have been amazing and hilarious. You'refantastic, No, you're fantastic, nose
go on, stop. Well,our guest today has been the lovely and
vivacious doctor, Reverend Doctor, AngelaYarbour. You got to get those things
(52:59):
in the order, I think,Reverend Doctor. And the book is Queering
the American Dream. It's available now. Check the show notes for the link
to order yours or I guess yourlocal bookstore. Perfect, don't forget to
visit Tayhomecenter dot org and throw somesupport. That's right, and get some
support from them as well. Yeah, there we go, perfect, there
(53:22):
you go. Thank you so much, Angela for being on the show today.
We'll really appreciate it. Thanks somuch for having me. Well,
that was amazing. Yeah, whata cool person. I really enjoyed that
coming. She might be my newbest friend. She doesn't know this yet,
but I'm about to call her.Are you guys are going to go
brunch or something? Yes? Okay, yeah, Well we're gonna skip over
patrons this week. Thanks to everyonefor their support on Patreon and supercast.
(53:46):
If you would like to give asupport, please visit Latter day Lesbian dot
org slash support. We really reallyappreciate it. And while we're feeling appreciative,
why don't we thank Dan from ExtensionAudio for leaving it in for sure.
Thanks for leaving in Dan, Yep, thanks so much. And remember
everybody please sear clear of cults becausethey're no joke, no joke at all.
(54:07):
Calculator. Hi,
In this episode, we have aspecial guest, the Reverend doctor Angela Yarber.
You know when I hear RIV,I don't think, I think,
oh my god, chure, YeahI feel that. Yeah right. Angela's
spiritual journey is so interesting. It'snot at all threatening. So nobody be
(00:24):
scared. Do not turn off thepodcast. It is gonna be a great
interview of promise. Yes. Plus, she has an amazing cool new book
called Queering the American Dream, andwe're going to talk all about it.
Yes, yeah, so super queerfriendly, not scary religious, just putting
that out there. I'm pretty surewe will not discuss fire and brimstone.
(00:48):
Not a thing unless we're gonna roastmarshmallows some morse. I do all about
that fire and brimstone. Well,maybe that's awaiting us in our afterlife.
Some moors for everybody of it.Okay, help me in. Why don't
we take a quick break and getto the interview. Let's go all right,
be right back. Hey, everybody, welcome to Latter Day Lesbian,
(01:12):
the podcast about an ex Mormon gaygirl just trying to figure out her life.
My name is Mary, my nameis Shelley. So Shelley we have
a special guest today. We do. Yeah, this is so cool.
I'm not I can't even quite rememberhow we were turned on to Yeah,
weird wording turned on by Angela justcan't turn on to Angela. Sorry,
(01:34):
Angela, you're gonna have to dealwith us. We can't mean it's we
really can't. But uh, Idon't know, It's just it just seemed
like such an interesting story that Iwas like, we should have her at
So, yeah, I'm going tointroduce the Reverend doctor Angela Yarbor, and
I'm gonna go ahead and read herbio that I picked up on LinkedIn and
we were talking earlier, and she'slike, um, I think that's right.
(01:55):
I don't know. We're gonna giveit a shot, okay. So
Angela Yarbor is no award winning authorand artist. She's the executive director of
The Holy Women Icon's Project, anonprofit seeking to empower marginalized women by telling
the stories of revolutionary Holy women throughart, writing, and special events.
Through the nonprofit, she leads retreatsin addition to offering art exhibits, workshops,
(02:21):
lectures, and dynamic public speaking aroundthe world. She was a pastor
for fourteen years and continues to consultwith churches on queering worship, preaching,
and spirituality. And we're going tocircle back to queering worship because I want
to know more about that. Shewas a professor for Women's Gender and Sexual
Studies and Divinity School professor for overa decade. Her painting, writing and
(02:45):
work has been featured on NPR's ProgressiveSpirit, Maya Angelou's Memorial Celebration, and
the television show Tiny House Nation.That's really interesting. She is the author
of seven books, four of whichhave been included in the top lgbt Q
Christian books of their respective publication years. Whether it's painting, writing, leading
(03:06):
retreats, or public speaking, herwork endeavors to inspire and empower, offering
beautiful hope and creative justice in themidst of systems designed to disenfranchise and oppress
the marginalized. Nice up, giveit up. Welcome, Reverend doctor Angela
Yarbor. Thank you for being here, Thanks for having me. I appreciate
(03:27):
it. That's quite the intro itis. I'm realizing that's a long bio
there on LinkedIn. I'm realizing thatI need to update some of that are
the title of our nonprofit has shiftedto the Tahome Center t h oh Am
since I posted that, So that'sa good reminder to stay on top of
all the things that need updating.That's right, But it's still the same
(03:50):
project during the same work, justcalled the Tahome Center now rather than the
Holy Women Icons Project. What istahome refer to? Oh? To home
is a Hebrew word that means deepor depths, and it's I won't go
into the whole long etymology of theword, but it's the word used in
the Genesis Account for Jews and Christiansout of the depths God creates. And
(04:13):
it's this feminine term for the waterychaos or the depths, syncretized with the
Tiamat, which is a Babylonian creationgoddess. So all this like queer,
feminist Wiley stuff is embedded in thatone word. Very cool. Yeah,
well she's got some weird watery depthsgoing pretty sure. Ge Well she gave
(04:35):
birth to seven children. Oh ohyeah, yeah, I could do that.
I told you I was a Mormon. I mean, what do you
do excepts at home and have babies? Yeah, what are the ranges of
your your kiddos their ages. Theoldest is twenty two, the one that
disappoints my dad, like I wastelling you, because he lives with his
girlfriend. And then the youngest isabout to turn nine. Not fast enough.
(05:00):
Yeah, I got a lot oftime till retirement. Unfortunately. My
oldest is eight, so same age, and then my youngest is four.
Yeah. Oh you're hating it.You're hating hard right now. Oh yeah,
I love them so much, andit's so hard. It's so hard,
especially when you're trying to like queerparenting and subvert the status quo with
(05:20):
everything about families that makes it's wonderfuland good and challenging. Yeah, you
can't just turn them loose to thesystem. And I don't mean that in
like an anti system way, butjust I feel like they need more,
They need more shown to them thanwhat still is just out there in the
world teaching them about families and life. And yeah, no, I'm with
(05:42):
you on that for sure. Yeah, and don't just default to bullying,
because that's I feel like middle school, I mean even elementary school to a
degree, but definitely middle school inhigh school is so fraught with that need
to fit in. You're just lookingon the kid that's weaker than need to
pick up everyone. It's just thisinstinct that we all have. It might
be in little ways. For oldestis eight, don't freak her out.
(06:08):
Hey, Angela gets worse. Okay, that's trying to say, buckle up,
Angela. That's interesting. Mary andI were having a conversation yesterday.
She's never had kids, never beeninvolved in like kids stuff, really,
and so me having all these kids, it's difficult and it's difficult for me
too. And she's asked me,and it was yesterday like, how do
you do it? Aren't you justexhausted and crazy? And not my time?
(06:31):
I am. However, I lookback to the years where they were
all younger, like where you areright now, Angela, and I'm like,
oh, I know, it couldbe so much worse. I've been
through the worst. Yeah, Ifeel like we've just gotten out of some
of the really tough times and agesbecause now everyone can like feed themselves,
they can go to the bathroom bythemselves. That's huge. Those things really
(06:56):
make a big difference. Yeah,So I'm grateful for that and our process
of becoming a family and foster caresystems and adoption and unjust policies and all
of that have made becoming a familywith children really hard, and so I'm
grateful and raging and tired at thesame time. Oh yeah, yeah,
(07:19):
I'm sure. I was actually lookingin some articles as far as like,
when did it become I guess legal, sure, legal for a gay couple
or anything outside the norm to adoptchildren, And it's been relatively recent that
it's even allowed. For the longesttime, they couldn't adopt if they weren't
married, and of course marriage wasillegal for anyone except for straight folks.
(07:40):
So I know this has nothing todo with your book, but well it
does. It's interesting to me.How was it, How was it for
you adopting, because you just saidthere's struggles there. So for my son,
who is eight, we did anopen adoption, which meant that we
connected with his birth mother during pregnancy, and she's aw and is a huge
part of our lives still, andso is his birth father. But we
(08:05):
had done all of the adoption,home study, case study, all of
that stuff in my name when Iwas a pastor, and then that job
became really toxic. And this isall a part of the book. Wearing
the American Dream, so it tiesin, but the job became really toxic,
so I ended up quitting and thencalled my adoption agency, who is
their agency is the oldest with workingwith same sex couples in the entire country,
(08:26):
and so they get it. Andon the one hand they're like,
well, we're glad that you're honoringwho you are and all this, And
what this looks like legally is thata single person with a stranger living in
her home, who doesn't have ajob, is trying to adopt a child.
So we had to do the world'sfastest home study for my wife instead
(08:46):
of me, so she was ableto legally adopt him. I couldn't until
same sex marriage became legal, andthen it costs like four thousand additional dollars
and all of this extra invasive work. So that happened with our son,
and just a few years later,my daughter's only four and we adopted her
through foster care, and that camewith a host of traumas and really invasive
(09:07):
homesteady interviews for us. But someof the first things that were said when
we went into court the judge,the first thing he said was that our
two year old was fat oh mygod, and asked us what we had
been feeding her, and then madea joke about how complicated this was going
to be because there's no dad,why because it was my wife and I
(09:28):
and how he didn't know what tosay. And normally I'm a person who
would offer corrective, who would saysomething or call someone in, but here
we are waiting to see if he'sgoing to rule like in favor quote unquote
of us adopting our child. Sowe couldn't really say anything because of that
power dynamic. Yeah, you haveto sit there while he beats on you
and says rude things, and it'slike whatever you say, whatever you say,
(09:52):
because you want your child. Ohass truly was he old and white?
I'm just throwing that out, yes, And this was in this was
in Hawaii. So in Hawaii,like if you're white, you're called a
hawe yes, And the essence ofbeing a halle is also being kind of
like a dumb holle. And sohe encapsulated the essence of what that word
means in every possible way. AndI just remember us and our social worker
(10:16):
and our attorney all looking at eachother like with our eyes enormously why thinking
what on earth is wow ass hatsaying? And how does he get to
make family decisions? Like exactly howis even allowed to talk to people's right
like, oh, I'm so sorry? How old was your daughter? And
was she in the room? Shewas in the room, and so is
(10:37):
my son? Did they hear that? They did? I don't know if
they quite registered it. And atthat point, my son, I think,
had experienced a couple negative things fromkids who you know, didn't understand
that you could have a two momfamily and said, oh, that's gross
or something like that. But onthe whole, my kids have had pretty
(10:58):
good experiences around that kind of thing, and that's part of because of the
people that we've chosen to surround ourselveswith. Yes, yeah, so we
feel really really lucky about the chosenfamily, the o'hana that we've created.
Yeah, how long ago was itthat you were in the courthouse with your
two year old daughter and this guysaid those horrible things? Oh it was
(11:18):
only two and a half years ago. Yeah, so it's not like it's
nineteen fifty seven. People, getyour shit together, come on, truly,
truly, And what's infuriating is thatso many times if you were to
share that story. A lot ofstraight folks would say, oh, well,
you know, oh, no bigdeal, it's right, you know,
(11:39):
it's just one comment. But thething is, and that's not even
a microaggression, but it's an exampleof these little underhanded slights that happen all
the time, and they're like deathby a thousand paper cuts, absolutely,
you know, and you don't reallyknow how to defend yourself against those kinds
of things because you're you're stuck wondering, like this guy really say that?
(12:01):
Yes, man, I'm so sorry, And you know you're right about straight
people, wouldn't. I mean,the straight people might feel bad for you,
but whatever, it's not their problem. But it is the straight people.
I think they need to stand upand call out these howlies and be
like, hey, man, no, because he's not he's not going to
care if you say it. Heobviously doesn't respect you anyway, So it
(12:22):
needs to be his peers. Idon't know exactly exactly, And they were
all in a weird power dynamic too, because you know, they were the
social workers and the attorneys, andultimately he was the one who you know,
got to make that decision. Butnevertheless, my daughter is with us.
Yay, safe and well, sogood. I'll count that as a
(12:43):
win. But but yet another exampleof how we have to actively queer what
it means to be family, toqueer what it means to be pretty much
anything these days, because the selfis at odds with everything around it.
Yes, well that is kind ofa good segue because I kind of feel
like we're burying the lead here.It just got so good. I couldn't
(13:03):
help. Mary's always like the lead. And I'm also talk about this the
judge. I mean, we're hereultimately to discuss Angela's new book called Queering
the American Dream. Yeah, Maryneeds to read some ship that we can
go back to talking. Mean youokay, Angela? Mary, so you
keep using that. It's so great. It's like queering this queering that is
(13:24):
that? Would that be an adjectiveat that point? Yes, right,
that's a verb? Okay, drYeah, I feel like we're all losing
the English language as we know it. Let's let me just text an emoji
to convey all of my emotions,the queer flag, and we know we
need do you say any actual words? Well, what's interesting is that,
(13:48):
like you know, queer can beused in so many different ways. But
the queering I think of that quoteof the Late Bell Hooks where she said,
I don't want to mess up thequote, but the essence of it
was queer, not so much aswho it is that you're sleeping with,
though that can be a part ofit, but queer as the self that
is at odds with everything that isaround it. And then you have to
(14:11):
create and invent and imagine places tosurvive and thrive. And so I think
in that way, queering obviously appliesto everyone in the LGBTQIA plus alphabet soup
community, but it also applies toothers who are at odds with everything that
is around us. And when theself is at odds, I believe,
(14:31):
like in my book and Queering theAmerican Dream, when the self is at
odds with this farce of a dreamwhere we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps
and slap on a good Southern womansmile, you know, and make our
own dream like that, when allthe systems are designed to disenfranchise you,
it just doesn't work right, andso we have to subvert and overturn and
(14:54):
dismantle and ultimately queer that dream.So that it's expansive enough for everyone.
I love that. Well, beforewe get into the book, let's go
let's go back a little bit andtalk about you. Our listeners are probably
like, way, mate, whois this person and it's a friend we're
chatting with and having coffee in themorning. It doesn't feel like that.
(15:15):
Yeah, that's kind of how weroll. Okay, So let's back up
before you were a reverend or adoctor. Let's just talk about Angela for
a minute. I'd love to hearabout your background. You did not grow
up religious, is that correct?Right? Okay, it's correct. You
chose that at some point. WHOA, why did you just throw that down?
(15:39):
Let's hear more about that. Becauseyou identify as queer, that's right,
and you're married to a woman,that's right. Okay, So let's
hear about that story, your journeyto becoming ordained. So I don't come
from a religious family, although Idid grow up in the Southeast and so
I was in the Bible Belt.It was present and everything that we did.
Because as when I was living ina government subsidized living place, there
(16:03):
was like a van that came andpick up kids and brought them to vacation
Bible school. So I had thatlike evangelical quote unquote saved experience. Because
of that, I could sing vacationBible songs with you all day long.
You know, deep and what deepand what? I'm a fountain flowing deep.
(16:23):
Y'all sound weird. Oh, there'sso many, this little light of
mine, I'm gonna let it.You know that one too, I'm sure,
of course. Abraham head Man,he's on Man's on Sarah. There's
so many. Mother and the concubine. Don't forget the concubine and the bastard
(16:45):
child, the bastard child who foundedIslam. Wait, that's not it's not
a left those parts out, sure, exactly exactly. Y'all had to be
the patriarchs. No patriarchs present,that's right. So I wasn't raised in
a religious home, working poor family, and had this plan as a high
(17:07):
schooler to go into the performing arts, and I did end up being a
professional dancer for a number of yearswhile simultaneously being clergy. So wow,
the dancing reverend. Truly, I'massuming it was not exotic dancing. It
could be role dancing. No,there's lots of money to be made there,
but whatever that's true. They passedthe play. They passed the play
(17:29):
the plate. Now that sounds likea very subversive liturgy. I kind of
want to design that absolutely. SoI ended up going to this conservative though
I didn't know that at the timebecause I didn't know anything about Christianity,
this conservative Christian church because they hada rock climbing wall and I was interested
in rock climbing. So they kindof like hooked, you know, teenagers,
(17:53):
and that's a good one. Andin that I had a really conservative
religious experience that I called Jesus ismy boyfriend, and so I did that
where I kind of fell in lovewith Jesus. My sister was in love
with Jesus, and one of yourgirlfriends was, and that's why you lost
her. I did lose a girlto Jesus. Yep. And at that
(18:15):
point I wasn't out to myself orto anyone else. I didn't even have
the framework. How old were you, I'm sorry, I was sixteen seventeen.
So instead of planning on heading toJuilliard and you know, creating a
life on the performing arts, itwas this pivotal time in my life where
the ministers at that church sat medown and said, the performing arts,
(18:37):
the arts, those bring glory toyou and not to God. Do them?
So yes, I ended up goingto a small liberal arts college that
was associated with Baptists, but luckilythe religion department there was moderate, so
I wouldn't say progressive. One ofthem was progressive. They kind of pulled
(18:57):
me aside and said, you know, this version of Christianity that was handed
to you, that's not the onlyversion. There are lots of different versions
and lots of different ways to bea person of faith. I ended up
becoming the youth minister at his churchwhere his children were youth at the ripe
age of eighteen, so wise tobe a youth minister then. And they
(19:18):
also said, you know, wedon't know anything about dance or the arts,
or that's not our thing. Butif those are your skills and your
talents and your loves, and youalso have this love for faith, why
don't you put the two together.So that started this long journey for me
of looking at the connections between thearts and dance, believe it or not,
which has a very rich history inthe Christian tradition, but that's completely
(19:38):
erased strategically erased by most people inpower right, And so through that process
I ended up becoming ordained, goingto seminary, and then going to do
a PhD. But all along theway I realized in my preaching and serving
churches that my language was really shiftingfrom I believe to we believe to the
(20:00):
Christian tradition teaches us. Because myown theology was morphing from a theology more
to a philosophy, especially as Iexplored more of goddess traditions from around the
world and interfaith dialogue. And sothat's more where I reside now. I'm
still ordained, but I say Ihold my ordination with an open hand,
so it could be revoked. Butno one has tried to do that yet.
(20:23):
Oh so that's a thing they couldjust say, like, nope,
we're going to take that away fromyou. It could be, but because
there is not a centralized hierarchy inthe Baptist Church, it makes it a
bit more complicated because you're ordained bya particular faith community, and so that
particular faith community, we need togather together the twelve men who served on
(20:45):
my ordination council and have them calledtogether their own I don't know synod of
sorts to say that they should revokemy ordination, and I do have clergy
who have since renounced their ordination,and I've toyed with that idea, But
instead I think of the myriad queerwomen who have come before me and who
are still seeing me, who've neverseen a representation like that, And so
(21:08):
I choose to keep it kind ofon behalf of the communities that I represent,
and see that as really important.Yeah. Yeah, well, in
Mormonism, you don't have to beordained at all, but you can lead
a congregation. Well you got tobe a man. Oh well, of
course you have to be a man, but yeah, you could be like
a local plumber or electrician or somethinglike, Hey, you look like you
could lead this entire congregation. You'reyou're in charge, quite realize, Oh
(21:32):
yeah, there it's um. Ohno, it's a calling from God.
Yes, let's not forget that.Yeah. No one has to go to
like preacher school. You just preachyour school, random guy, and they
need seminary. They lead someone tolead a congregation, so they're like,
oh God wants you. You don'tget paid or anything. You just have
to give all your time, andthe bishop can be a dentist, a
plumber, whatever, and then he, somehow, because God's mantle is now
(21:56):
on him, has the ability tocounsel people. Yeah, that's so crazy.
Seriously. Okay, yeah, it'slike getting the worst therapy of your
life and you think that you thinkthat what he's saying is from God talking
about screwing people up. Yeah,it's horrible practice. Well, and I
feel like I knew that about therole of bishops, but I assumed that
it functioned like it does in mostdenominations where they had a training. No.
(22:19):
No, the bishop's training is basicallyhere's the manual, which means like,
here's here's the punishments you dole out. Like I remember, I know
it's not about me, but whenI was sixteen, I had had sex
with my boyfriend and so I wentinto the bishop with all the guilt and
shame and told what had happened.And he literally got the handbook from his
shelf, set it down. Itwas like he was going, let see
(22:41):
for anication, for anication. Okay, you yeah, you are this fellowship
for six months. You cannot takethe sacrament. You need to come in
and meet with me as it.There was no like say three Hail Mary's.
Yeah, and our father and mostMormon, I'm gonna say most when
they go into their bishop, it'slike they're looking for spiritual guidance and family
(23:04):
guidance. And these guys have noclue. They're just like, oh,
well, you know, and it'stheir opinions. Well, if you would
be intimate with your husband more thanhe would treat you better. I mean,
I've heard horror stories. Oh sopredatory, isn't it. Yes,
yeah, so, Shelly, thissounds like a good time for a break.
(23:26):
I agree. We'll be right back. We are back anyway. Now
I'm not the guest being interviewed,but I haven't put that out there.
Back to you, Angela, backto our guests. Yeah, So how
old were you when you went throughseminary, became ordained around that time,
and then when did you kind ofback out slowly? Well, I was
(23:48):
only twenty two when I was ordained, So I was in seminary from age
twenty two to you know, forthree years, so till twenty five,
and then started my PhD. SoI was really young. I went directly
from high school to college to seminaryto PhD program and then finished all that
at twenty nine. You like school, Yes, I do. It occupied
(24:11):
all of my twenties, and Ido love learning still, but I'm glad
that I don't want to now I'mthe professor who gets to take papers rather
than write the papers for someone elseto grade. And I would say that
I started moving away even as Iwas being ordained, but it wasn't a
moving away at that point of faith. It was of even at the point
(24:33):
of ordination, I didn't have anytraditional views, like my views were not
seen as orthodox, and I evenremember talking about that on my ordination committee.
Because it was a relatively progressive groupof people, A lot of their
ideas weren't orthodox either, and sobelieving things like Jesus was a revolutionary and
(24:55):
maybe not necessarily the son of God, those kind of things we're okay,
wow, right, Even the feministtheology side of things was affirmed by this
group of twelve men. That's prettyamazing, actually, yeah. But then
it kept moving farther and farther andfarther to where I was wondering, well,
(25:15):
you know, I don't I don'tknow if there is a god doing
the calling, and I definitely believeJesus was a historical figure and still today
quite the revolutionary who did a lotof subversive queer stuff. I wouldn't call
him a son of God because Idon't know if there's a God who exists.
I think that we've constructed lots ofversions of goddesses that I think are
(25:37):
very compelling and meaningful. But Ialso don't come down on a firm line
to say that I'm an atheist oran agnostic, because that's a little too
wishy washy, And then an atheistis a little too firm. So do
you check that spiritual but not religiousbucks pretty much? Yes, I would
definitely do that. Yeah, Ilike it. I have such similar viewpoints
(25:59):
to you, and I love theidea of Jesus being queer. Let's just
go ahead and say he was,because like did he definitely? Was he
more into Mary Magdalen or was hemore into John Beloved right right? Exactly
and exactly? And he raised Lazarusfrom the dead, so he must have
thought he was pretty special. I'mjust saying exactly, but I agree completely,
(26:21):
and so many of the things thathe did fall into this category of
queering the self that is at oddswith everything around it, and so flipping
over tables and being friends with theoutcasts and the tax collectors and sex workers
like those weren't everyday ordinary things thatrabbis did, though there are plenty of
(26:41):
fabulous rabbis today to do. Butat that time, you know, this
was quite subversive. And in thatway, I would use the term queering
almost almost hand in hand with theterm subversive, And in that way,
I do think that Jesus as aperson, as a historical figure was very
subversive. Sure, I love thatpeople, and I'm just learning this,
(27:04):
it's actually okay to take the versionof Jesus that you were taught in some
of these hardcore religions and still likehave a love for Jesus, but an
understanding of who he was not,you know, because it was hard for
me leaving Mormonism because I had this, I had this connection to Jesus just
(27:25):
because like that's when you're raised inJesus and the Manger and he loves you
and blah blah. So when Ileft Mormonism was hard to kind of like
toss Jesus. But the more Ithought about how I was raised, who
Jesus was yeah, I'm like,hit the door Jesus, you know,
God's son and blahl, Like thewhole thing was just this ugly, patriarchal,
growdy thing to me. But nowlike listening to you talking about no,
(27:47):
Jesus, he was a rebel,you know, and he hung out
with these people, probably wasn't eventhe son of God. Like that sits
nicely with me to still have thatperson in my mind of someone to be.
I think about the cool stuff thathe did, but get rid of
the guilt and shame that he diedfor my sins and every time my sin
he cries, and you know,all that horrible stuff. So yeah,
(28:11):
wait, you don't believe Jesus wasa demigod whose celestial father had sex with
a teenager to create him. Youdon't believe all that was right and that
was hard. I love Jesus,but story I don't like. I love
Jesus, but the rape path?Why do we believe that? Why do
any of us believe that? Itdoesn't even make sense to me what you
have bought that? And in Mormonism, if I were to go in for
(28:34):
my worthiness interview, which is basically, if I can get a temple recommend,
which means I can go to thetemple, which means I could be
saved. So if I don't dothis, I don't get saved, I
don't get my family. The plumberslash head of the church gets to interview
her and decide if she gets tobe saved or not. Yes, so
what exactly? And there's a listof questions and one of them is,
um, I'm misquoting it, butit's like, do you believe that Jesus
(28:55):
is the son of God? Blahblah blah. If I were to say
no, like I love Jesus blahblah, but I don't think he was
a literal son of God. Sorry, you can't go to the temple,
meaning you can't be saved, meaningwhen you die, you are separated from
your family, Like you have tohave this exact version of Jesus. And
finally, like this realization, likeI don't actually have to have their version
of Jesus. And so I lovehearing you say this, like this is
(29:17):
my version of Jesus and it kicksass. I love that. Thank you
for sharing that. Totally. Ipersonally feel like we have all been taught
that Jesus is like a demigod becauseof ancient Greek and Roman mythology. It
was fitting in with that whole mindset. Wasn't it Constantine that tried to get
everybody on the same page and changechange the Holy Day to Sunday because that's
(29:41):
when the Pagans were worshiping, andhe wanted everyone to let's all get along
here with our religions, oh andvote for me. Right. We never
see anything like that today, No, that would never happen. How did
queerness fit in to this whole oldjourney with the church and becoming ordained and
(30:02):
your belief in Jesus, etc.Well, I was not out to myself
or to anyone else when I wasordained. In fact, at that point
I was engaged to marry a manalong the way realized that's not going to
work, and it wasn't even becauseI quite realized that I was queer at
that point, even though I knewI wasn't super into him like sexually.
(30:25):
So instead of getting married on ourwhat would have been our wedding day,
I spent I was in the MiddleEast doing research on interfaith dialogue. As
you do, Yeah, exactly.I think I was dancing with whirling Dervishes
in Syria around the time that Iwas supposed to be, you know,
walking down the aisle that's called Angeladodges a bullet. Yes, that's your
(30:49):
next book, by the way,you're welcome. Oh perfect, I love
that a bullet and instead dances withthe dervishes as you do, as you
do. So I didn't end upcoming out until I moved to Berkeley,
California. How cliche, that'll doit, and I met my wife there,
the person I'm still with today,and was doing my PhD and also
(31:15):
teaching where queerness was huge. Thiswas at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley,
which is associated with UC Berkeley,and a host of the seminaries attached
to it are either nondenominational or UnitarianUniversalist or Disciples of Christ UCC more progressive
denominations where queerness is affirmed but notsimply affirmed, but also like celebrated.
(31:40):
Yeah, and so a big numberof my students identified as queer. It
was my first time with my knowledgeencountering trans folks. I had never met
anyone who was trans to my knowledgeup until that point, and so being
exposed to and learning about with gratitudeand openness. The queer community also helped
(32:01):
me realize that the desires and yearningsof my own heart lived there as well.
And so even though I feel likeit's super cliche that the girl from
Georgia moves to California and then comesout as queer, that was indeed my
experience. I think I saw thaton a Hallmark movie. Was that was
(32:22):
the story one only recently? Right, it was just a flash Christmas.
Right. I was about to say, it's been like the past couple of
years where they're like, let's makequeer holiday movies. Yes, was there
a reindeer out of a stable somewhereand the girlfriend had like a beautiful lab
(32:42):
puppy in that one together? Andthe old man who's the school custodian turns
out to be Santa. Yeah,sure, pretty sure that's how it went.
Yes, it was a big cityof small town. Oh yeah,
exactly. They're probably listening in andnext year we're gonna sit down. Here's
(33:05):
the screw. I haven't done theschool custodian angle yet. We'll have to
do that exactly, and we're like, where are royalty go to court?
I just know it, that's funny. I'm hoping we don't get that judge
that I have, right, Ithink we've gotten to the point in this
(33:27):
discussion where I want to entro yourbook unless there's something else to the book.
I think we're finally to the book, unless there's something else you want
to discuss about your background and sortof how you got I mean, there's
so many questions. I mean,at what point did you start writing literature?
It was during my PhD program becausemy first book ended up being my
dissertation, and so all of myprevious books before this one, before Queering
(33:52):
the American Dream were academic books.Well, and then I had one coloring
book because I'm an artist too,so that doesn't come It would be for
my children, yea Holy Women Iconscontemplative coloring book. But prior to that
it was all academic publishing. Sothis is my first foray into memoir,
into commercial publishing. So this isreally new for me, in a new
(34:15):
way of writing. I'm both reallyexcited and thrilled about it, and a
little nervous too. Do you enjoyit though, I mean clearly, oh
yes, I love it. Ido. I see it. I'm very
lucky that my jobs are painting andwriting, and they're also my spiritual practices,
the methods of self care. Andso I do sincerely pinch myself on
(34:37):
a pretty regular basis that the thingsthat I really love doing it to be
my work. That's cool, that'sawesome. Well, I was going to
read just a short blurb from nearthe beginning of the book. Please,
okay, Well, let's let's justdive into it. This is an excerpt
from Queering the American Dream. Andthere's a link in the show notes to
(34:58):
be able to order this book.And I'll repeat this at the end in
case anyone was like, where doI get that? Again? You have
to copy and paste the link intoa browser window. Unfortunately, our podcast
host doesn't let you just click itjust a little fyi there. People have
been like, your link is notclickable, Like, I know, that's
unfortunate, But this excerpt says howin the hell did we get here?
(35:21):
It should be just a travel memoir, not a eulogy. For eighteen months,
my wife, Toddler, and Iroamed the country as my brother's addiction
morphed into a bigger and bigger beast. In this meandering travelation, nice word
turned a funeral narrative. The lives, legends and legacies of the revolutionary holy
(35:43):
women I paint and write about wereand continue to be my guides. They
are how I survived this, andI believe they can help you survive and
thrive too, no matter your griefor loss. So there's a lot going
on in that statement. You weretraveling. You were traveling around the world
(36:06):
at that point, around the country, around the culture and the United States.
Okay, and what was going onwith your brother? So, my
brother or my late brother he's sincedeceased, was an addict for a good
portion of his life, and atthis point in time, he was addicted
to duster, which a lot ofpeople aren't familiar with. It's when you
(36:27):
inhale computer duster. Yeah, anytimeyou do it, it's called sudden sniffing
syndrome. It can just cut offthe connection between your brain and your body
and kill you anytime. So eachtime you do it is like a game
of Russian roulette. And at thebeginning of our travels, we thought that
he was just struggling with something,but we didn't know what. And a
(36:51):
midway through our full time travel,we learned what it was and had never
heard of that, and we're tryingto get him into rehab. He didn't
want to go to a faith basedrehab, and all of the ones that
our family could afford are faith basedand rooted in twelve step programs. Also
a lot of rehabs, when yougo in, you have to test positive
or some kind of a drug oralcohol, and he can't because computer duster
(37:15):
doesn't make you test for anything,because it's not made to be a drug,
right, And so getting him treatmentwas incredibly challenging, and so we
left on this adventure the day theSupreme Court ruled our marriage legal, and
for eighteen months, the intent wasdiscernment, traversing the American landscape to see
(37:36):
where we might end up and plantroots to form this retreat center. But
along the way, because of mybrother's addiction, it kind of enveloped what
we were experiencing, and so itwas impossible for me not to experience the
world and these travels and even theserevolutionary women that were traveling alongside of me
in the forms of paintings, tonot experience them through the lens of my
(37:59):
brother's addiction and then subsequent death fromthat addiction, and throughout it all he
ended up spending upwards of twenty thousanddollars on computer duster and essentially, you
know, dusted himself to death.Wow. Sorry, that's tragic. It
is he died when he was onlythirty three years old and had experienced a
(38:22):
hell of a lot of trauma beforethat, and had a family who loved
him, and we did everything thatwe could. But loving an addict is
really really hard because of someone,especially someone who does not want to get
help or whose addiction prevents them fromtrying to get help. And so it
breaks my heart still. It's almostfive years ago now that he died,
(38:44):
and it breaks my heart, especiallyfor my mother. Absolutely. The book
opens with me officiating his funeral.Wow, you officiated his funeral. That
must have been not easy. No, it was not easy at all.
And I'm very fortunate that I hada lot of clergy colleagues and others who
offered to officiate and who offered tohelp. But the thing is is I
(39:06):
didn't trust anyone else with I didn'twant addiction to be the only memory of
him. He was the first fullperson, right, and I didn't trust
anyone else with the rituals and lamentationsand words for honoring someone like him,
and it ended up being a verysmall family affair for a host of reasons.
(39:27):
But yes, that's how the bookopens and then goes back in time
to when the Journey Journey began,and at the very beginning there, we
didn't really know anything was going onwith him, So it was just kind
of my wife and my toddler andme, and we're footloose and fancy free,
you know, kind of like gallivantingthrough the woods in rural Vermont.
Yeah, let's take another quick breakand a more booze. We'll wrap this
(39:52):
up. So, Shelly, Iknow you know first hand that nothing says
I'm an apostate like drinking coffee,And no one says that better than apostate
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check out and get ten percent offyour order. Oh it's like you get
a full tie back with every purchase. Do it and we're back Hello.
So this book is a memoir essentially. What inspired you to write a memoir?
Well, I've always loved travel memoirs. That has been my kind of
(40:58):
like armchair travel, my go towhen I want to read something that's just
for fun, because as an academic, so often i'm reading for research and
not just reading for fun. Sothere was that piece of things, and
that's what I thought from the outset. But then as my brother's addiction got
worse and worse, and then ashe died, I wanted to honor him,
and I wanted to provide hope forother people who are struggling with addiction,
(41:21):
to see that there are ways out. And then alongside that, because
you've got my story. But thenin each phase along the way, there
are these different revolutionary women from historyand myth whose stories that I share,
and so part of it is alsoto give an even bigger platform and to
shout their stories from the rooftops andsay, it's not just my family who
(41:44):
queered the American dream, but theyare all of these amazing I keep using
the word revolutionary, but that's thebest word for them, revolutionary women who
have queered this dream throughout history.And if we follow in their footsteps,
if we heed their wisdom, thenwe can kind of, as we talked
about at the beginning, go backto making this dream expansive enough for all
people. And how did each ofthe women that you chose to be part
(42:07):
of this story play into it?Like how did you select them, and
how are they pivotal to different partsof this book. It's really interesting because
I've painted or created assemblage art forabout one hundred and fifty women from history
and mythology, and about one hundredand twenty one twenty one hundred and thirty
(42:29):
or so of those are sold inhomes and galleries throughout the world. But
at the time that we were leaving, I think I had about one hundred
in the collection and there were onlyabout sixteen left, and I had a
couple shows along the way as wewere traveling. So what I did was
I packed up those actual paintings sothe paintings of the women in this giant
green tuppaware container and it was storedin the storage compartment of our pop up
(42:52):
camper traveling all over and then wehad these really wild experiences, like in
rural Vermont where the binge stored andI randomly, as a campground host,
meet a couple who loves folk artand we call my iconography folk feminist iconography,
and so they're going on and onabout how they love it, and
I say, well, I'm I'mactually a folk artist, and looking at
(43:15):
images on my phone wasn't enough forthem. So we end up hauling out
the green tupaware beIN and like hanginga pop up show on the birch trees,
and they end up purchasing some ofthe pieces and we hiked them down
to their camps and just kind ofwild stories like that. And then some
of them were the roles of thewomen, like Polly Murray, for example,
(43:36):
who was the first African American womanordained as an episcopal priest. But
before that she was a civil rightsattorney who coined the phrase Jane Crowe to
acknowledge the sexism that accompanied racism atJim Crow Laws she also didn't have the
language for it at that time,but was queer and was likely gender nonconforming
or transgender. So here she isthis woman who's criminated against for her race,
(44:01):
her gender, her gender identity,and her sexuality, right and all
of these profound rays who writes abook that Thurgood Marshall called the Bible of
the civil rights movement. And Iam teaching about her and writing about her
and showing her painting when I'm inrural Virginia and seeing Confederate flags flying everywhere
(44:22):
that are hampering the otherwise gorgeous likeautumnal glory from the gorgeous mountains and trees.
And so there's just different women whokind of come to the forefront of
the travels because of things that werehappening in the world at the time,
or because of the location of wherewe were traveling. Wow. Yeah,
So it sounds like the locations correspondedto the women's stories that you are also
(44:45):
painting about and then writing. Absolutely, that's cool. So what is the
sort of takeaway that you would likereaders to know when they read the book?
What are they going to get outof it? Potentially? My hope
is that they'll leave both inspired andempowered and perhaps more than that, galvanized,
like to go forward and queer theirown dream and subvert and dismantle all
(45:12):
of these dreams that are handed tous as what the status quo is,
the way that we have to liveand have to be, and say,
you know, that's not working forme, and that's not working for most
people. Actually, that it's theseare dreams and status quo that disenfranchise the
marginalized and erase the voices of somany who deserve to be heard. And
so to reimagine, to invoke radicalimagination of what it means to live and
(45:37):
be and embody your dream in theworld. Yeah, I guess that's my
next question for you. What doesqueering the American dream mean to you personally?
That's a really great question. Iwould say that it means for my
family in particular, that the waythat we were living and the dreams that
(46:00):
were kind of passed down to usas the way that we need to be,
the family living in a big housewith the white picket fence and you
know, two point five children andall of that. That that's designed by
a system and a structure that's rootedin white supremacist sis, heteropatriarchy, to
throw the big woke words out there, and that it's not a system that
(46:22):
works for my family and that worksfor most people, and so we want
to dismantle it and reimagine something better, to reimagine a better world, and
to say that that world isn't justoff there yonder by and by, but
here now on earth, in thepresent, for us and for the people
that we care about, and forindeed all people. That's great. And
(46:44):
one percent of the proceeds from booksales go to support your foundation. That's
the Tea Home Center. Am Isaying that correctly? Tay Home? Okay,
Tay Home. So what's interesting isthat all of the money goes to
two different charities. One is aremy publisher, Parsons Porch. They are
a nonprofit publishing house whose motto isbooks to bread, and so everything that
(47:07):
goes to them goes to help feedhungry families. They're in Cleveland, Tennessee,
so in that area. And thenall of my author royalties that typically
go to the author go directly tothe Tahome Center to help empower marginalized women
by teaching about these revolutionary women throughart writing, and special events. That's
amazing, cool, thank you,Yeah, yeah, tell us more about
(47:29):
that center. How does that work? Sure? So it started off well,
the work of the center with theserevolutionary women in art and in writing
has been going on for well overa decade with me, but we didn't
become an official nonprofit until about fiveyears ago on Hawaii Island, and then
it moved here with us and wewere first incorporated as the Holy Women Icons
(47:50):
Project, And after a while werealized we aren't just a project, We're
a center. And also that nameis quite a mouthful, and so we
ended up that we are the toHome Center, which means deeper depth,
so a center for deep spirituality anda place where marginalized women can come to
find a breath for self care,where people can come to learn more about
(48:14):
social justice issues, and then wherewe lift up these stories of revolutionary women
from history and myth. That's reallyour primary goal, and that's both in
painting and in writing. And thenthose modalities come out in the retreats that
we lead, the courses that weteach, workshops and things like that.
How do people find out more ifthey want to come to a retreat,
(48:35):
is that something that's open to anyonereally or absolutely yes, So they could
check out our website that's home Center, that's t h O M Center so
C E n t R dot orgorg and check out what we're doing.
They can also follow us at theto home Center on Facebook, Instagram,
Twitter. We're kind of on allof them. I still haven't learned TikTok,
(48:59):
but maybe one day we keep tryingtoo and it escapes us. One
of these days we'll get it,and then we'll help you get it too.
Might be perfect perfect. I hopethat my young in turn was gonna
help me figure that out, butshe's one of the rare gen zs who's
like, I don't get it eitherone exactly. So any of those platforms,
(49:20):
we also have an email list thatthey can sign up on through to
homecenter dot org, and that's alsowhere they can go and purchase the book,
or anywhere books are sold actually isa great place to to get it,
or even at your local library.If you don't have the funds to
buy it, you can ask librariesto order it for you, and most
of the time they will no nice. That's why I say, even if
you can buy it, go inthere and tell your library to order it.
(49:43):
So that's there for others. Absolutely, we did this interview with some
book people. There's a better wordto that. Now. These are the
people who collect them and put themin packs. Flight, Oh, curators,
curators, that's Oh, it wascalled our shelves. Our shelves.
Yeah, it's through kid books.They curate diverse kids books. Yeah,
yeah, so how cool. Yeah, because they're so hard to find.
(50:06):
And the issue is they're hard tofind because no one requests them. It
libraries, well, no one requeststhem because they don't know they exist,
because they're not in the library.So it's this cycle of like they're out
there, but no the libraries willorder because nobody requests them. No one
requests them because they don't know theyexist. So that was why I'm saying,
go into your library regardless and say, hey, can you get this
book so it can start to bepublicly available there. That was my Absolutely,
(50:29):
that was her little spiel. Ilove it. I love that spiel.
Thank you, thank you. Whathave we left out? What else
would you like our listeners to know? To be honest, I feel like
we have covered a whole lot alot together. I definitely want people to
know that the work of the homeCenter can't happen in a vacuum. It
(50:50):
can't just be me doing it.It has to be this amazing community,
the community that I call the SubversiveSisterhood of Saints I love around the world,
who you know, who lives upthese stories together, and so the
more folks get involved, the better. So I imagine there's a way to
donate right on your website. Absolutely, absolutely, We're always happy for donations.
(51:10):
And where do the retreats happen rightnow? Since we moved from Hawaii,
our most recent retreat, which wasa pilot retreat called Queering the Dream,
happens here in the Saint Pete,Florida area, which was recently ranked
for the second year in Ago asthe top beach in the United States.
So that's a lovely place to holiday. Yeah, so that's not that far
(51:31):
or drive for us. We didthat last year. I'm you know,
it's away. It is quite thedrive. I mean, it's pretty,
but that's pretty far. Okay,Well, the Tampa International Airport is only
thirty minutes away. There you goa quick ride, and so we offer
those here and then we also offersome online retreats, including some free ones.
(51:54):
On the website, there's access toa free seven day online self care
retreat, just that we've been offeringthroughout the pandemic because I don't know about
you, but I think we allneed some serious self care right now,
especially that kind of like radical selfcare for collective good. Yes, so
we have those available as well.That's great. Well, gosh, Angela,
(52:15):
thank you so much. This hasreally been a very very interesting conversation.
We really appreciate you coming on theshow. Mary. You didn't tell
me she was so awesome. Ohokay, I god, no idea.
I'm like, oh no, anotherShe's like when she say you unwrap,
you find that out after you unwrapping. That's so nice. Good blushing over
(52:37):
here. Good thing. This isa podcast and not a video. We'll
have been amazing and hilarious. You'refantastic, No, you're fantastic, nose
go on, stop. Well,our guest today has been the lovely and
vivacious doctor, Reverend Doctor, AngelaYarbour. You got to get those things
(52:59):
in the order, I think,Reverend Doctor. And the book is Queering
the American Dream. It's available now. Check the show notes for the link
to order yours or I guess yourlocal bookstore. Perfect, don't forget to
visit Tayhomecenter dot org and throw somesupport. That's right, and get some
support from them as well. Yeah, there we go, perfect, there
(53:22):
you go. Thank you so much, Angela for being on the show today.
We'll really appreciate it. Thanks somuch for having me. Well,
that was amazing. Yeah, whata cool person. I really enjoyed that
coming. She might be my newbest friend. She doesn't know this yet,
but I'm about to call her.Are you guys are going to go
brunch or something? Yes? Okay, yeah, Well we're gonna skip over
patrons this week. Thanks to everyonefor their support on Patreon and supercast.
(53:46):
If you would like to give asupport, please visit Latter day Lesbian dot
org slash support. We really reallyappreciate it. And while we're feeling appreciative,
why don't we thank Dan from ExtensionAudio for leaving it in for sure.
Thanks for leaving in Dan, Yep, thanks so much. And remember
everybody please sear clear of cults becausethey're no joke, no joke at all.
(54:07):
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