175: Shelly's Mom's funeral Pt. 1

Hello Friends! In today’s episode, Shelly talks with Kimberly Anderson about the death of her mom and her trip to Utah for the very Mormon funeral. If you’ve ever been to a Mormon funeral as an ExMormon, you know there’s gonna be a lot to unpack here. This is part 1 of 2. That’s how much there is to unpack.

Music provided by Purple Planet: https//:www.purple-planet.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Uh, today's episode is special.I know right, I'm sitting here with
my good friend Kimberly Anderson. Forthose of you do who don't know her,
Where the fuck have you been?Where the fuck have you been?
Probably escaping Mormonism? Good? Good, congratulations if that's absolutely the reason we

(00:23):
are recording together today, A Kimberlyis awesome. B I just got back
from my mom's Mormon funeral, andI thought it would be a good idea
to unpack this with an actual professionaltherapist because there's some ship, and also
with an ex Mormon because check andcheck. So yeah, that's the intro

(00:47):
let's I guess we do a commercial. No, I don't know. Mary's
not here to tell me where everyyou know when, what house. We're
just gonna fucking wing it, wingit so it might be like a three
hour long podcast. I know I'mfucking with you anyway. Commercial back,
Kimberly. Before we get started,I tell tell the listeners why you are

(01:12):
the best to be in this episode. Well, a thank you for even
considering that that would be the case. I don't like superlatives. I will
say though, that I'm probably qualifiedto talk to you, mainly because I'm
your friend, that's true. Yeah, and we have a common history both

(01:33):
in escaping and post mormonism, rightright. I also am a trained therapist.
So let's make one thing very clear. This is not therapy. No,
no, this is not a therapysession. I am paying Kimberly.
So what it is, though,is you talking to a therapeutically informed friend.

(01:57):
So you are not my client oryou've never been my client? That
will you ever be my client?Because that would be unethical. You know
too much. I don't know,way too much, way, way too
much. However, many audience membersof LDL are my either current client or
have been a past client. Eh. So if that is you, then

(02:17):
I will say hello and welcome.Oh that's awesome, that's awesome. Oh
wow, Where to begin? Ithink let's start at the very big Is
there gonna be a lot of singingin this episode? That's from a musical,
isn't it? Yes, it's justthe one The Hills Are Alive?

(02:38):
It sounded okay, okay, yeah, great, start at the beginning.
What do you want? I mean? Okay, so I know I posted
on some social media pages about theinitial happenings, and I'll just go over
that again really quickly, because itkind of leads into it. So I
got the phone call that my momprobably has had a few weeks left from

(03:01):
the hospice nurse. And there's alot going on in my life at the
time, but I felt like Ishould probably get out there. So I
bought a one way ticket and Iwent to Utah on a Monday morning.
I got there Monday afternoon. Ihad a recording with me of all my

(03:21):
kids reading books to my mom,like all like the Golden Books, the
Little Red hen Poppy Little Puppy.Yeah, that was my favorite with her.
She reused to read that to meanyway, all of my kids just
reading books to her for like twohours of book reading. I've recorded it
over multiple days. But yeah,so I had that. My mom was

(03:43):
already I don't want to say comatose, but she wasn't responsive at all.
She hadn't been drinking for two daysby then, which is definitely a sign
that there's not a lot left,like your body will use up the rest
of your moisture down. She's shuttingdown, for sure. I mean,
that's that's what happened. So Ispent the rest of the day like hours

(04:05):
with my kid's voices playing next tomy mom's ear because from what I've been
told, the hearing is the lastthing to go as you're dying. And
holding her hand, you know,I did some work on my laptop as
well, and then taking like asponge with a little bit of water and
you know, putting it on hertongue, uh, coating her mouth with

(04:25):
this, I want to say,lemon stuff. That just helps it not
feel so dried out because she was, you know, dying of thirst,
I guess, and her body wasshutting down. So I spent that time
with her. It was quiet,it was nice. All of my brothers
were there. They ended up comingso and my dad. So it was
myself, Mike, Mark, mydad, and then my oldest dick face

(04:46):
brother that we all hate, David, but we pretended to be okay with
him. You know. There wereno fighting or anything anyway that happened.
And then the very next morning earlymy mom passed. So I know people
say sometimes people I sometimes people whoare dying, once they have what they
want, like their family together,you know, they go to someone's wedding
or whatever it is, that theykind of let go and I you know,

(05:08):
I like to tell myself that's whathappened. I like to tell myself
that my mom finally got to makea choice for herself. H I like
that. Yeah, that's in myheart, that's what happened. So after
she passed, then we had tostart making arrangements. If anyone knows my

(05:28):
brother Mark, I know who doeslisten, But he was a fucking badass.
He took care of everything. Alittle bit about Mike and Mark.
They are Mormon. They're very Mormon. They're very rulsy and obedient, but
also very nice. So much onpoint right, right right. We were
staying at my aunt's house and wewere kind of talking about what happens next.

(05:50):
I've never been part of a funeralbefore, like an active participant.
Correct, okay, correct, Sono one close to you has died then,
really my grandma, but I wasreally young. You'd have been a
spectator exactly, exactly, no onethat I was a part of them,
So, I you know, Idon't know how that works. Talking to

(06:10):
my aunt though, she was tellingme, okay, so we need to
dress the body, right, whichmeans you go to the mortuary where they
have your mom's body and you youdress her in clothing ready to be buried
in had the body been washed already? I'm sure the mortician had already done
that, Oh for sure, becauseI mean we couldn't get it back out
there for the funeral for like threeweeks, so they had like keep her

(06:33):
on eyes and pumper full of stuff. Sorry if I feel a little,
if I say a little, Imean it's the truth and also trigger warning
or content warning for death dying andyou know, honest talk about how to
prepare a body for burial. Absolutely, yes, So who did her hair?
The people did, which was thethe mortuary people, and they did

(06:54):
a great job. Interesting, sometimesthe person that's going to die finds a
friend or their hairdresser and asks themto come in and do their hair for
the last time that the mortuary tookcare of the makeup and hair. Then
they did they did. Look well, yeah, it was amazing. I'll
get to that, but yeah,no, you're good. You're good.
I'm glad that you brought that upbecause it'll like get my mind going.

(07:15):
So talking to my aunt, shesaying, well, we need to go
dress the body, and then sheone of my brothers asks, like,
is Shelley allowed to be there.I didn't even thought about that, because
you dress a Mormon body in theMormon ugly ceremonial temple clothes. If they've
been through the temple endowment, correct, if they're worthy, Let's let's keep
that wording. That's right. Soif they've been to the temple and they

(07:39):
died worthy and they paid all theirtithing, that would make that makes you
worthy. Yes, I know,I know, I know. You gotta
you got to pay all the wayup to the end to get in,
which reminds me my senile dad.He's getting so bad he can't remember jack
shit, but he still calls mybrother who's in charge of the estate,

(07:59):
and says, are you sure I'mup to date on my tithing? It's
like, Dad, you're damn neardead. You think you've paid enough already.
And by the way, you're payingtithing on like your retirement, which
means you've already paid taxes on it, or pay tithing on it. You
pay tithing on it when you gotpaid double tithed. Yes, I can't

(08:20):
imagine that. Saint Peter's up atthe pearly gates, you know, with
logging into your account and saying youknow your ten cents short? Sorry,
do you have ten cents on you? You're a little ten cents short.
Anybody in lying got a dime theycould lend this poor person. I mean,
I guess when you're a spirit,you can't carry shit until you're resurrected.
It doesn't go with you as theycan't take it with you, So

(08:43):
then no one would be able toMaybe that person could inspire someone down below
to pay some tithing for of coursea spiritual visit visitation that would be a
tender mercy and it'd be fucked up, so you can really and not true.
The reason it would be fucked thatwould be is it's not that's awesome.

(09:03):
Uh anyway, So when my whenwhen my brother mentioned that, and
my aunt was like, oh,I I don't I don't know, you
know. And I was thinking,I don't know either. I didn't care
at the time, but I justI didn't want to I didn't want to
address it whatever because nobody knew.So a few hours later we go to
the mortuary and we're talking, didyour brothers have access to the online version

(09:28):
of the Church Handbook to look atthe preparation for deceased bodies. That's the
sure everyone does. I actually lookedit up too, And why did you
find out? Well, I lookedit up after the fact because I literally
didn't care at the time. Ididn't want to fight about it and my
but in my mind I was like, Okay, whatever, this isn't on.
This is a no issue, Iyou know. So nothing was said

(09:50):
to me, uh in that moment. Then we went to the mortuary to
talk to the funeral director, likewe got to make all these plans.
And as we're sitting there, I'msitting next to Mike and Market. I
love Mike and Mark. I lovethem, especially Mark. We are so
close. He just I don't know. He's my favorite brother. And I
wish he wasn't a Mormon, aRusi Mormon, because it would just be

(10:11):
better. Does he drink coke?Yeah, so he's not that. But
but he's like, if the prophetsays we do it, that's what it
is. Can I rewind the conversationyet? Five minutes? Yeah, your
mom passed? Yes? Was shealone? Yes? That's right. I
should go back to her passing.Yeah, next to you is the emotions

(10:31):
pillar from my office. Pick thatup? Her dying alone? When you
got that news that she had passed. What feelings were you holding in your
body? God? The first feelingbecause my my my brother Mike came and
knocked on my bedroom door. Wereall stick at my aunt's house and it

(10:52):
was five in the morning. Knockson the door and he's like, just
so you know, Mom just passedaway. I was shocked because they'd said
two to three weeks. First Iwas shocked, Then I was relieved,
and then I was overwhelmed by nowwhat. I was sad, but not

(11:13):
that sad. The sadness came later. I wasn't that sad. I was
grateful that I had been there,and I was like, holy shit,
what if I hadn't come out yesterday, Because it was a you were in
a position where you may or maynot have gone. Absolutely. I had
so much shit going on. Iwas juggling a lot, and I was
debating for an entire day. Iwas debating, and then finally I was

(11:33):
like, fuck it, I'm justgonna go whatever. So yeah, there
was that Oh my god, I'mso glad I went. There was there
was closeness I felt with my twobrothers that were there because I knew we
were going through the same thing,like, now, what this is like
mom died? You know, doyou feel you had been grieving your mom's
passing before she passed? Yes,uh hmm, grieving versus disconnecting. Right,

(12:01):
She's been so kind of out ofit for so long that the emotional
disconnect. I let that happen.Did I cause it to happen? I
don't know. It felt more comfortablebecause it was kind of like, she's
not really behaving like my mom anymore, for better or worse whatever. There
were moments of lucidity with her.But you know what's strange. I still

(12:28):
it's like I knew she was dying, but I didn't believe she was dying,
which is why it came as ashock when she did die, because
I don't know if my brain hadaccepted that, yeah, she's gonna die.
I think in my brain she wasjust going to be in the memory
care unit forever and I'd go seeher every couple months, and which obviously
wasn't going to happen. But thatI think that's where my brain was,
Okay, it was okay thinking thatwas what was happening. Yeah, it's

(12:52):
strange relationship with my mom. Wewere never really close. But she's like
the kindest, sweetest person in theworld who loved everyone, and everyone loved
her, so it's not like weweren't close. And also she was a
bitch, and it's like, eh, well you know, bye bye.
So there's a version of you that'sglad that she's gone, relieved that she's
gone. Yes, And there's aversion of her that you possibly miss,

(13:16):
yes, version of her that Imiss, and me wanting her gone.
That sounds horrible, but she wasmiserable. She was bedridden, she had
bedswords, She couldn't do anything forherself. She would scream out in pain
a lot. It was not good. She needed to die. She looked
dead for a good couple of weeks. Because we have a camera in there

(13:37):
to monitor my fucking asshole oldest brotherDavid and make sure he's not saying inappropriate
things, which he did. Islike, Mom, they won't let me
feed you. I'm so sorry.I wanted you to have a stomach tube
so you could be with us forsix more months and maintain these relationships.
But they won't let me. Markand Mike and Shelley won't let me.

(13:58):
He's such a Oh I could dofour podcasts on that motherfucker. Seriously.
So the morning that she died,got the phone call, so Mike and
Mark and I are like, Okay, I guess we need to go see
her. Mike called back the ladythat called and said, please don't take
her body yet, let us allget there and spend some time. So

(14:18):
we went. My dick face brotherDavid was already there, but he was
up with my dad. He hadalready stopped and visited my mom. I
think because there was I don't knowhe said, he said he did.
He was upstairs with my dad andMark and Mike and I just sat with
my mom, held her hand,gave her a kiss. She looked good.

(14:41):
When i'd seen her the day before, she just had her mouth open,
you know, trying to breathe.But after she passed, you know,
the hospice nurse comes in and makesure she's gone, kind of puts
some makeup on the face, gother mouth closed. That sounds really like
that's pretty medical, but yeah,she looked asleep. So we went upstairs.

(15:03):
David was up there. He wasalready the room with my dad,
and I was thinking, oh,I fucking hope he didn't tell him already.
We do not want David telling anyoneanything. Thankfully he had not,
so I took the lead on tellinghim because I think of all my brothers,
I'm the one who's most don't.I don't know. I just felt

(15:24):
like I should. I don't knowwhy. I just sat next to him
and I told him and told himhe had nothing to worry about. We're
taking care of the funeral, becausewhat I know is my dad worries about
everything, every little thing. Andso I was like, everything's taken care
of. Would you like to godown to see her? And so we
took him down to see her,and my dad is just so kind of

(15:48):
far gone. He just sat thereand held her hand with kind of a
blank stare, and it was itwas sad, you know. He took
her her wedding ring off gave itto me, which was powerful. Yeah,
I have that ring. There's adiamond and a wedding band, and

(16:11):
I'm going to get a nice sturdychain necklace to put the wedding band on
to where and keep the diamonds somewhereelse. I don't know. I've processed
that all the way. What I'mgoing to do, so anyway, he
sat there there with her for awhile. Again, that was sad.
It was just sad to see mydad, even though I do have I

(16:32):
mean, everyone who listens knows Ihave issues with my dad. There's been
things. But still, no matterhow I thought he did or didn't treat
my mom, in this moment,my mom was gone and he was sad,
and that made me sad. Sothen we went to the whole going
back to my aunt's house and findingout that maybe I'm not allowed to do
the thing. And now we're atthe funeral home and we're planning the funeral,

(16:53):
and my brother Mark, who Ilove the most, turned to me
and he says, Shelley, listen, and this is that this is I
don't this has nothing to do withyou. I'm sorry I have to bring
this up. And they asked thefuneral director. He's like, my sister
is not temple endowed. What arethe rules as far as her being able
to dress the body? And Ithink this The initial reaction was I was

(17:17):
hurt that he would ask that,but then I understood why he would ask
that. But then I was madthat that was even a thing that needed
to be asked, and I hadto remind myself this is not about Mark
and Mike. This is about thecult and the brainwashing. Mark and Mike
are good people. Well, it'sinteresting to think about this. For decades,
the temple clothing, the ceremonial clothing, the robes, sash, the
apron, the whole deal of theslippers, you know, the hat,

(17:40):
the bonnet was all very tightly guardedwhat it looked like, what are represented.
And then the Internet happened and allthose things were leaked and the world
could see what they were. Andthen the church actually had a big giant
press release and showed the world whatthey were. So let's not forget that
I have been through the temple.Well you not, notwithstanding the rest of

(18:00):
the world knows what they look like. It's no secret that they're worn,
and it's no secret what they looklike. So for you to not be
there, you're not going to thetemple, you're not engaging in the complex
handshaking, you're not learning any ofthe health in the naval bullshit. You're
just there to put clothing on aperson. Cause playing a ceremonial Jewish temple

(18:29):
whatever the fuck copied Jewish. Yeah, so the idea that you're seeing things
that you're not supposed to see wouldbe null and void. It was a
moot point. You'd already seen them, you already knew what they were.
The Church has released had information tothe world. So I'm very curious,
Actually, what was the hang upwith you being there or how did it

(18:52):
resolve? The hang up was it'sin the handbook that I shouldn't have and
the handbook rules all depending on yourbishop. Of course, it's bishop roulette
every time and again and again,again and again. When Mark brought that
up, the funeral director said,you know, I'm I'm not positive on
that. You're gonna need to checkwith the bishop. And I just I
stopped everything. I said, listen, Mike and Mark, no offense.

(19:15):
This is not about you at allat all, but this is non negotiable
to me. I will be there. And you know, Mark said,
well, you you know mom wasvery devout Mormon and we just want to
respect her wishes. And I said, Mom would want me there. Mom
would want me there. Okay,end of discussion. Let's move on,

(19:37):
and my brothers just stopped and wemoved on. Good for them for honoring
that. Good for you for youknow, making that decision, that holding
that boundary. Yeah, and I'vebeen this super laid back as far as
things went with her dying and allthat, but when this hit, it
was like, uh, nope,no, no, no, no,
no boundary. I think Mark andMike were like, oh shit, Shelley's
mad. Let's let's let's leave thisbe. So you met or were you

(20:00):
firm? I was firm inside.I was fuming, like this fucking cult.
And my brothers, who are wonderful, feel like they have to ask
someone if their sister is allowed tospend moments with their mom. This is
the deference to authority, This isthe difference of the patriarchal order. Totally

(20:22):
so fucked up, so fucked up. So moving on, I did go
with to dress my mom. Iwent with my two sister in laws and
my two aunts. So not eventhe men went no, but the men
wanted to keep you out. They'relike, we're not going to do it,
but you shouldn't because you're not worthyit, right, So fucked up.

(20:44):
God, it's so fucked up justsaying it out loud again and hearing
your response, so fucked up.So I went and my mom looked great.
She was dressed in a temple gown, not all the ceremonial clothing.
And yeah, I've heard that somepeople have to dress them from like nude.
That would be different. So weget there and I'm there with my

(21:10):
sister in laws, who I love, and my two aunts who I also
love. They're all very liberal,which I'm like, I can you just
leave the fucking church? But they'reall strong liberal women, and as we're
standing around, I did have thissense of like female strength in the room.
The funeral director had walked out atthat point. He's a nice guy.
And one of the things that hitme is my my aunt Beverly.

(21:33):
She said, well, I thinkwe should probably have a prayer, and
that kind of gave me pause becausethere's still that thing of like, I
don't know, but I was,you know, whatever, whatever, and
then she said, Shelley, whowould you like to say the prayer?
That was beautiful. That was respectfrom my still Mormon family, who knows

(21:56):
I am so not Mormon, whoknows I have an anti Mormon podcast.
The respect of you are your mom'sdaughter was amazing. I didn't expect that
and it was It kind of mademe tear up because I'm not used to
getting that kind of respect within theMormon world, especially the respect of putting

(22:17):
that sounds horrible, of putting meabove others, meaning I was the one
who got to choose who said theprayer. I haven't been broy my whole
fucking life. I haven't been theone who gets to choose ever in Mormonism.
And damn right, it took anotherwoman to recognize that I can an
ex Mormon making that decision X Mormoncovered in tattoos. I think I was

(22:41):
wearing it like a pink T shirtthat said be happier. So I don't
know, you know, shorts probablyhad gay vans on. I don't know,
but that was amazing. And soI asked Beverly if she would say
the prayer. She just should.The prayer was beautiful, and then the
funeral director came back in and weput the put the ceremonial clothes on.

(23:03):
Of course, I had to cracka fucking joke as I'm tying the robe.
On one side, I'm like,this is the easiest I've ever had
tying the robe, because you know, it's like anytime we have to tie
in the temple at least when Iwas through. You have to change all
these Oh you got the ribbon andthe bow and the tying, and then
everyone's checking you and you're the scrutiny, and you're like, I don't want

(23:23):
to be last. I don't wantto be last. Oh ship, the
ribbon fell out of my hand.I got it. Now there's belcrow.
Yes, I heard too late forme, though, I was always panicking
about the stress we put on eachother, the stress on the temple,
remembering the words how does the handshakego? So fucked them? Did I
figure to take my slippers off andput them right back on? God,

(23:45):
you're going to hell if you orno, I'm sorry. The person you're
there by proxy four would be goingto hell because you would forget to take
the slippers off. Yeah. Sostill if you take the left one off
first, so the right one offfirst, I'm glad you made a joke.
Oh I had to. And theother ladies response absolutely. My sister
in La Heidi, who's my favorite, this Mark's wife, she laughed the
loudest and she's like, I know, oh, so that she broke her

(24:07):
temple covenant loud laughter to avoid loudlaughing. You know, it's hard for
people to avoid loud laughter around me. It was a good tension breaker,
good because it is a little Imean, it wasn't weird. I just
had never done it before. Iwas worried driving there. I didn't know
what she would look like. Ijust didn't know. I had no idea.
I've never been around a dead body. I've never touched a dead body.

(24:30):
I was worried it would be weirdor gross. I don't know.
I had everything. I was scaredto see my mom dead so much,
so much so as the way thatwe did at the funeral director is like,
Okay, I'm going to roll hertoward me. You're going to tuck
the apron underneath her whatever. Itwas all very not awkward. The funeral

(24:52):
director was very kind. It wasa beautiful experience to be with the strong
women in the family, because Ido consider those ones were there. It's
the strong women, not to dissthe others anyway. So we took care
of that. And then I paintedmy mom's nails because she was always very
loud and bright and colorful, andher favorite color, if you ever asked
her, was sky blue. Pink, sky blue, pink. She was

(25:14):
always saying whacky shit that didn't makesense. What I don't know, that
would be my mom answering in herfunky ways. So I had like a
sky blue color and a pink color, and so I just did every other
nail. It's very transgender, right, I should have put her in some
kind of flag. Oh yes,not a queer flag in her casket exactly.
So then I'm just thrilled that shehas pink and blue nails. We

(25:37):
all wear wore pink and blue tothe funeral, every kid. I know,
I almost wore my pink birket stocksbecause I'm wearing pink and white or
blue and white right now. Youshould have. That's really funny pink and
blue mm hm, because that's that. See, And those are the things
about my mom that, despite herbeing very weak and not kind of standing

(25:59):
up for me, things growing up, things about my mom I love.
So Kimberly, I think it's timewe take a short break. Sound good,
cool, be right back, andwe're back. So at the end
of dressing her, the funeral directorwas like, okay, so how this
works is we will have the veilin the coffin kind of like downward it

(26:26):
can't be seen. And then beforethe casket closes, the daughter look at
me. You will be the oneto put the veil on her face.
Oh she said that to you.Yes, wow, that's like the highest
of the things that you can do. But my initial reaction was I'm not
putting a fucking veil on my mom'sface. I stopped that thought. I'm

(26:47):
like, this isn't about me.So your mother would have wanted that veil,
she would have wanted to obey everything. Sure, yeah, I almost
No, I didn't almost say it, but man, and that thought crept
up from like my bowels because Ihate the veil. I hate that the
women had to cover their faces withthe veil in order to do anything like

(27:10):
the high level temple shit. Ihated it. I always have, always
will. But I stop myself fromsaying something because I reminded myself that this
is not about me, like,I will deal with this. I will
emotionally deal with this, but II want to do for my mom what
she would want. You suspended yourego. Yes, that's a beautiful thing.

(27:32):
Thank you, thank you. Andby the way, any listeners,
if you would have made different choicesthan I did concerning this ex Mormon and
Mormon funeral. I understand. Idon't judge anything. This is what I
did, and this is my story. So don't feel like you should have
done something because I did it acertain way or whatever. I don't think

(27:53):
we should judge anyone for what theydid in complicated situations like that, because
we all know ex Mormonism, whenyou have Mormon family, it's so fucking
complicated. It truly is. Whenyou love people who are Mormon and you
hate that they're Mormon, but youlove them. I don't know, it's
a mess. You get this right, Kimberly, You have family, right.

(28:14):
My father died two Decembers ago,and I was not told he was
dying until after he was dead.In fact, I didn't know that he
was dying until or that he wasdead until one day before the funeral.
So it's pulling some things up inmy yeah, emotions and my feelings regarding

(28:36):
my father's death that I was noteven involved and in fact, in the
obituary they dead named me. Fuckright. So you so you say that
things with X former Mormons and Mormonsand funerals are complicated. That is a
very strong understatement. For sure.For sure, I didn't say yes or

(28:56):
no to the belw was just assumedthat I would because the guy was like,
you know, this is what you'regonna do, and just so that
you know, there wouldn't be awkwardness, like how does this? How do
I do this where it's availa blahblah blah. So came back from dressing
the body and then I was sittingnext to my brothers, Mike and Mark,
and they were like, how didit go? And I kind of
talked to hunt them and I'm like, okay, so how it works is

(29:17):
before they close the casket, Igo up and do the veil thing and
then my brother Mark says, well, you're not allowed to and I go
who said? And he said,well, we had to call the bishop
to find out, you know,what we can and can't do. And
again I want to shake him,be like you're so fucking brainwashed. Mark,
You're such a good guy, andthis is making you just do things

(29:40):
that you you wouldn't You wouldn't everthink that your little sister shouldn't be able
to be there for the last momentof the open casket. But the fucking
church, the fucking church. Healso said, and we found out you
weren't supposed to go dress the body, and I said, oh, well,
better her and redress her appropriately,right right, go ahead, Tay.

(30:03):
It's clearly my unworthiness destroyed that momentand my mom's fucked, so you
better go redo it with people whoare worthy. And I was getting,
you know, those feelings were bubblingup, and I just was like,
I don't care. I don't care. Mark. He goes, well,
I'm just telling you what the bishopsaid. I said, what's the bishop's
number? So he gave me thebishop's phone number. And I'm pretty ampt

(30:25):
up at this time. So nowyou are angry. I'm angry. I'm
angry, and I told my brothers, look, I'm not gonna yell at
him. I just need to discussthis with him. And I went outside
and I called him and he wasn'tthere, and I left a message,
and I'm so glad, so gladthat that happened, because about five minutes
later, I'm like, why thefuck am I calling this guy to ask
permission? Why the fuck am Icalling this guy to explain why it should

(30:48):
be me? He doesn't know me. He actually doesn't even know my mom.
He's the new bishop in the ward. I am not going to defer
to this motherfucker about a stranger,a stranger to both you and your mother.
Yes, thinking that he needs tocall the shots because of a fucking
handbook. This is not my religion. It was my mom's religion. But

(31:12):
I dare fucking tea she would wantme to be the one to do that.
She wasn't the type to exclude.She wasn't. And so this time
I'm getting emotional. I'm still kindof hurt that my brothers called to find
out the rules. But again I'mreminding myself their brainwashed, their brainwashed,
don't be mad at them. AndI went and grabbed my two sister in

(31:33):
laws, at least in Haidie,and I'm like, can we talk in
the back room. They came backthere and I told him what had happened,
and Heidi, my hugest support,goes, oh, you're doing the
veil. I'll go up there withyou and like, fight off anyone who
tries to tell you you can't this, this is not no. I will
go tell Mark and Mike right nowyou need to butt out. This is

(31:53):
gonna happen it'll be messy if somethinghappens there at the funeral. And again,
Ah, the experience to feel thesupport of a Mormon supporting breaking the
rules because love comes first, andI feel like you just don't get that
a lot, you know. Andmaybe it was because she was a woman,

(32:19):
and maybe it was because she understandslike the relationship of a mother and
daughter, and maybe it was becauseshe understands like, I'm the only daughter.
This is my right, this ismy right to do this. I
don't care what religion you are.Don't dismiss me from my right to be
there with my mom at the veryvery end, just because it's some fucking

(32:45):
man saying the handbook says this thing. You don't this guy doesn't understand emotions,
he doesn't get connections clearly, orhe's just so fucking trying to climb
the ladder that he's going to doeverything the book. By the way,
this guy is maybe thirty five yearsold tops tops. When I saw at

(33:06):
the funeral, I'm like, oh, this is the fucker that thinks that
he owns the world. So havingthat and at least supported me too.
But Heidi was like, I willtackle anyone who tries to get in the
way of this, anyone you're doingthe bail and I just cried. I
again, just feeling supported by someonewho's on the other side. They're Mormon,

(33:30):
but they're supporting me. I didn'texpect that I would need that support.
I didn't know all the fucking rules, but to have that was just
okay, all right, I cando this, you know. So we're
recording this fairly recently after these events. I was there last week. So
what day how many days ago?Was this Friday? On Friday? Is

(33:53):
one week? Seven days ago?Yeah, this is fresh, Oh so
fresh. And I'll probably cry andI'm gonna swear a lot, and you
know this, this is fresh.This was a hugely impactful experience for me.
By the way, I'm a bigfan of Heidi never matter, probably
never will. I'm also a bigfan of any woman that will push back

(34:14):
against male patriarchy in the church.Yes, because it's not easy, whether
they're in it or whether they're outof it. And I think that you're
going to start to see more andmore of that happening. I agree,
I carry help, but wonder fiveyears ago, ten years ago, certainly
twenty years ago. This would neverhave happened. No, no, no,
Now the ex MOO would not haveeven been like, it wouldn't even

(34:36):
been a consideration. No, no, I think that's changed. Okay,
so moving on the story. Ifelt more comfortable at that point. And
then the next morning, Oh,I told my brothers afterwards. I'm like,
hey, I'm doing the bill andthey were like, oh, okay,
they didn't want to fuck with me. They didn't want to. And
then the next morning I woke up. This was like the day before the

(34:59):
funeral. I think in Mark andnot Heidie Mark, and at least we're
sitting at there. At least isMike's wife. She's definitely more strict on
the Mormonism. Heidi is Mark's wife, who was like, I love you
before I love any religion. SoI'm sitting there with Mark and I said,
listen, I just kind of haveto get this off my chest.

(35:19):
This is the problem I have withreligion, is that this person that I
don't know is going to tell methat I can't be with my mom,
you know, over things that Idon't believe in, over things that I
know she would want me to do. And he's like, of course,
look, I just wanted to respecther wishes, you know, and I
get that, but those weren't herwishes. I'm telling you, as the
daughter and as the conversations that we'vehad, that was not her wishes for

(35:43):
me to be excluded from anything ever. And then my sister in law,
Atlise, who is more strict,She's like, well, you know,
when I go to Israel or whatever, their mosques and things that I can't
visit because I'm a woman. Isaid, it's different. It's different.
That is a whole different religion.This is not your family. It's not
the same thing. And she justkind of kept having to come up with

(36:07):
reasons as like why we should respa. It's like, you should respect this,
and I'm like, no, Irespect my mom. So she's trying
to pull a very common logical fallacythat we call the false equivalence. Explain
that false equivalent. Oh well,I happen to have my logical fallacies deck
of cards here with shit. Okay, should take a second and find the
one that says the false equivalence andread it on read it for the podcast,

(36:28):
and we should play some strip pokeras we do. So, oh,
shirt's coming off, No bras todaypodcast means no bras. Oh,
well, then I'm going to benaked a whole lot sooner than you.
Kimberly is shuffling the deck and youknow, and I hate that shit where
it's like, well, well,it's also it's also a confirmation bias,
oh for sure. And you know, I'm gonna keep talking a while.

(36:50):
You look, I do view thisdifferently than I'm not allowed to go in
the temple for a temple wedding becauseyeah, that's stupid, right, but
the whole with my mom, andit's not like it's in a sacred place
where you have to have a secretpaths to get in. It's just just
different. And some people that I'vetalked to who don't truly get Mormonism,

(37:13):
you know, they're they're kind oflike, well, well, fuck it,
you shouldn't. You shouldn't do anyof that stuff. Fuck that religion,
you know, but not understanding thesevere juggling that has to happen between
hating the religion and loving some ofthe people in it. To find the
card, apparently my decad Cards doesn'thave it in here. Well, however,
what it does have instead are threeother logical fallacies that are that are

(37:36):
important to look at. One isan appeal to emotion, which means manipulating
an emotional response in place of avalid or compelling argument. The appeal to
authority, using the opinion or positionof an authority, figure, or institution
of authority in place of an actualargument yep. Also the confirmation bias.
You favor things that confirm your existingbeliefs. Yes, so these people are

(38:00):
engaging in all kinds of logical fallacies, including the false equivalence, which means,
basically, in Layman's terms, applestwo oranges. I get where she
was coming from saying, but it'sno, it's just it's it's designed to
keep perfrom feeling uncomfortable about what's goingon. Right about that, she exactly.
I think if Heidi hadn't ha beenthere first and said, oh,

(38:22):
yeah, you're doing the veil,Hell yeah, that it might have been
a little bit more of a strugglewith the lease. She probably would have
said, like, you know,do what you want to do, but
I wouldn't have felt the extreme supportlike I did from hiding. Anyway,
that conversation ended, I just waslike, look, I want to get
this on my chest. I cried, Mark gave me a hug, you
know, because again Mark's a sweetheart. Why does he have to be Mormon?

(38:44):
Fuck? Luck of the draw.Right. So then we spent that
night, me and all the grandkidspainting our fingernails. Ever, all the
pink and the blue, all ofus, all the bright pink. I
should have left it on for this. My boys had pink and blue ties.
This is like a serious trans feralat some point, Oh, for

(39:05):
sure, for sure. Wow,I know, I know, you know.
It was amazing that we can beclearly, that's not what your mother
is anticipating. Everyone's going to understand. They're going to look at the pink
and blue and think about Grandma,of course, but there's like an under
there's a serious queer undercurrent of transinclusion in this c My mom was so
inclusive and I'll get to that part. But yeah, yes, that was

(39:28):
my mom, and she was loud, and the whole sky blue pink,
whatever fuck that is. We're gonnado it all up. One thing.
Okay, let's go back to Markfor a second, my brother Mark.
We have in the family, specificallyone queer person that goes by they them
and is now named Granite. Oh, I love that great and matching,

(39:52):
the perfect non binary name. Iknow, they go they say it matches
the darkness of my heart. They'reso funny. They're so funny, they're
hilarious. So Granted's mom message youmean was like the ibetuary looks nice.
I'm not surprised that they dead namedGranted. It is what it is.
And I said, oh shit,let me talk to Mark. So Mark,

(40:15):
who's the rule follower? I said, Mark, listen. Andrea was
like kind of we're you know,kind of mentioned and Mark go's, oh
crap, I'll change that right now. Oh wow, Right, so this
is who Mark is. I don'tthink Mike would have changed it. A
right, good job Mark, bravo. Yeah. So he you know,
emailed it and got that change.So, yeah, your family fixed something

(40:36):
that my family fucked up. See, good job family, Yeah, yeah,
good job. My family's better thanyours. Truly. Well you have
a relationship with your family, that'strue. You didn't. I still still
don't. Yeah, fuck it sucks. So he changed that. That made
me feel good because Mark's come along way. He used to be very
you know, anti, like that'sgross. You know, I'm not going

(40:58):
to call them by their name,but he has come such a long way.
His daughter, Courtney, who ismy daughter Jenevie's age, she chose
to wear a bright pink suit tothe funeral with one of the boys striped
ties. So when she decided thatMark put it out there for everyone.
He's like, Okay, how manyties do I do I need to get?

(41:19):
You know, I don't care whowants to wear a tie, Whereas
probably two years ago he would havesaid boys wear ties, girls wear whatever.
Clearing it up. Wearing it up, by the way, Courtney was
just looks so fucking fabulous. Itwas like it was it who was like
a hot pink suit, shiny likeyou'd see on soul train. I mean
great, And she wore my mom'ssky blue colored crocs with fucking love Courtney

(41:46):
love Courtney, well, Courtney hearthis, Probably not, I don't know,
but I fucking love her and sheknows I love her. Anyway,
So when we were talking about who'sgonna be the pall Bears, right,
I mean, there's just so muchtradition that had to be broken down in
this, and Mark says, well, let's you know the grandsons, and

(42:07):
I go, well, why doesit just have to be the grandsons.
He goes, uh, I don'tknow. I know, tradition, tradition,
tradition, bucking the system. Andthe fact that it was Mark who
was doing this. I think that'swhy I was able to get in there,
buck the system, because I don'tknow if Mike would have maybe,
I don't know. So I said, listen, I don't want this to

(42:29):
be a boys do this, girlsdo this thing. I don't like that.
I don't think mom was like that. And he was like, cool,
great, how do you want todo it? And I said,
well, why don't we just dolike the oldest two kids of each family,
just so you know, I don'tknow, I have to pick something.
But then I said, why can'tthey all do it? Why can't
we somehow find a way to includeall of them? So we talked to

(42:52):
the funeral director and he's like,yeah, half of them can do it
at the funeral. The other halfcan carry her from the hearse to the
burial site. Fuck yeah. Sowe picked half boys and half girls for
each movement of her casket. AndI'm just feeling better and better about this.
I love that the girls and thewomen are so inclusive or inclusive and

(43:12):
included in this process. Yes,yes, absolutely, this is how traditions
change. Yes, yes, becauseI wasn't going to have a traditional The
strong women were not going to haveit traditional. The grandkids who were girls,
they were not going to have ittraditional. I don't think they even
recognized it. They were breaking themall traditional exactly. They wouldn't have made
sense to them to not be apallbearer. They're just like, I want

(43:35):
to be on the left side ofGrandma on the back. You know,
there was no because kids these daysare fucking awesome. They claim they're on
space. Yes, yes, Ilove me some gen z. I don't
care how much the older generations complainabout them. I love gen z.
They will save us. Oh absolutelyabsolutely. So planned that part. Then
we had to plan who's speaking atthe funeral, and one of the big

(43:59):
obstacles was we can't have David,the oldest piece of shit. We can't
have him speaking because he is horrible. He will talk about how much we
didn't let him take care of mind. It's all bullshit, it's all He's
a narcissist, and I will saythat out loud. Well, let's be
real the funeral. At this point, once the speaking starts, it's not
so much a funeral for the person, but it's a propaganda and proselytizing effort

(44:20):
by the church exactly. And Ididn't want that. So who makes a
decisions about who's going to speak?Again, that thirty five year old rookie
bishop. Nope, who made thedecisions? The three of us did together
good. We decided that Mark wouldspeak, We decided that I would speak,
and we decided that we would allowDick face David to do the prayer

(44:44):
just before they close the coffin becausethere's less people in there. It's like
damage control, you know. Andthat Mike, because you have to be
a worthy priestheth holder, will dothe dedicatory prayer at the grave. So
on the way to the funeral,I'm realizing that none of my kids have
seen a dead body, and soI was explaining to them, Okay,
so there's there's part of the funeralbeforehand where there's a viewing and you were

(45:07):
you can go into the room whereGrandma is laying there in an open casket,
and you can see her and youcan touch her and say goodbye.
None of you have to do that. If you don't want if that seems
weird, if that seems uncomfortable,you don't have to do that. And
I told them, also, Isaw Grandma like two days ago, and
she looks really good. She doesn'tlook creepy or weird. She doesn't look

(45:28):
like a zombies. We started likecracking jokes about zombie Grandma just to kind
of, you know, I dothat when things a little heavy eye joke
and the kids laugh and then we'reall good again. So I didn't know
who was going to do what.We get to the funeral and they all
want to go see Grandma. Weall go in there. There's lots of
people. My kids were totally finewith seeing her. They cried. My

(45:49):
kids are sweethearts. They adored GrandmaJay. And one thing that I was
so happy about was I saw somuch of my fan that I hadn't seen
in probably twenty twenty five years.They were so happy to see me,
and I didn't I didn't know whatwas gonna be. Like, I'm like,
I don't know. They know I'veleft the church, they know I
have a podcast, Like, theyknow I've got tattoos, they know I'm

(46:10):
angry. Or was angry, butthey were so happy to see me,
and the hugs they gave me werelike for real long hugs, and that
felt good again to be Uh,I felt accepted and I didn't know.
I don't know. Did I needthat acceptance? I don't know. I
think I was fine without it,but feeling it felt like it felt good.

(46:31):
And so there's this juggle that's internal, like am I still looking for
approval? Am I still needing this? Or did it just feel good when
it happened? Is that a rhetoricalquestion? Do you need that approval?
I don't know. I don't Idon't feel like I do. But it
does feel really good when I getit, you know, I don't know.
Both of those can be true.Okay, I didn't think I needed

(46:52):
it. I don't know. Ithink if there were some people that didn't
approve of me, I think Ijust kind of be like, there's they
suck and move on. If everyonedidn't improve me, that would probably hurt.
I don't know. I don't know. It was just good that it
was that way. My dad wasthere. He just kind of sat in
a corner, glazed over eyes sadwhen people would come in and they'd say,

(47:15):
where's your dad, I'd say,well, he's over there, but
he can't remember people's names. Ifyou could please introduce yourself, because he
hates that he can't remember people's names. I felt bad for him. He
just I mean, I don't liketo see anyone sad, but I just
felt for him because he just lookedso gone, so checked out. Anyway,

(47:35):
all of that that stuff happened,and then it was time for the
veil. And I'm a little nervousbecause my idiot brother David. He went
up and said the prayer and itwas very weird because he's very weird,
and then he sat back down.I knew it was time, and so
I walked the fuck up there.There's a funeral director and some random dude
and then the bishop next to him. And I walked up there. Didn't

(47:57):
even look. The bishop didn't becauseI don't care about him him. He's
zero to me, nothing, hesays, he's nothing to me. And
I walked up the director and I'mlike, I'm ready to do the veil.
He said, okay, so helifted up her head. I said,
it behind her head right and kindof on the top, and he
said, you can either put itover her face or near the sides.

(48:19):
I don't know if that's new,I don't know, but like my heart
fucking jumped for joy as I putit on the sides of her, on
the fucking sides. Why is thatimportant? She should never have her face
covered ever. She's beautiful, andI know she would have been good with

(48:39):
that. I know she would havebecause my mom, she didn't hide herself
with her wacky z any crazy likeshe was an out person. So I
did that and I kind of leanedinto the casket to kiss her on the
cheek and hugger, and all ofmy emotion finally hit. I don't think

(49:00):
it really really had before then,and it was I felt like it was
me and my mom. That's it, empty room, me and my mom.
I did that last, and Iknow it's fucking religious, but I
didn't care. I did that last, honoring of her in her way.
Doesn't matter if I thought it wasbullshit, I don't care. I did

(49:22):
this for her. I was herhands doing this. That's quite a gift
you gave her. I agree,I completely agree. And again some people
won't agree that I even went,and that's fine, but this was my
choice. This was my juggle withmy anger, with my trauma, with
my mom. It was my jugglemy decisions. We might need to take

(49:44):
one more break here, so let'sgive it a go. Be right back
and we're back. I cried,like ugly cry for probably two solid minutes,
which doesn't seem like a long time, but when you're a silent room
full of people, it's a longtime. I cried and I cried and
I wailed and I sniffed in allof my stress, all of my weird

(50:10):
like disconnect from my mom because shewas getting old and it was hard.
Did anyone come up and join youto comfort you? My kids came up
behind me while you were crying.Yeah, my kids are fucking amazing,
Kimberly them you. I just feellike a unit with them, Like,

(50:30):
no matter what happens in my life, I have seven cheerleaders who want me
to be happy, who love me. I have seven kids that there's eight
of us that are will always bebonded together, always support each other.
It was beautiful, But probably themost emotional part after that was I said

(50:53):
my goodbyes. They closed the casket. I'm still crying. My brother Mark
comes up to me and hugs me, and he's like, it's just a
hat. You get that. It'sa pretty shitty hat. It's a pretty
shitty hat. But he's just yeah, and he's like to me, that
was him saying you should have donethis, this was your right, and

(51:14):
it's just a fucking hat anyway.You know. I don't think my brother
Mark has ever said anything to mewhere I felt that understood, that accepted,
and that loved by him, becauseagain, he's rulesy as shit,
and he saw and agreed with theimportance of me doing this thing that I

(51:35):
wasn't quote unquote worthy to do.Ah. Yeah, what are you feeling
in your body right now? Tension, release, gratefulness for my family,
no matter where they are. Notmy brother David, he can fuck off,
but grateful for my family who lovesme regardless. And I know we

(52:00):
complain when people are like, well, I still love you, even though
I mean that seems like a dissbut I felt that I appreciated. I
love that they still still love me. And I know that sounds awful because
people should love people regardless, butI understand the cult that they're in.
I understand that I should be shunned. I understand that I shouldn't have been

(52:21):
allowed to touch anything wholly according tothem. I get it. And my
family looked past those rules and waslike, yeah, you're good, you
should be here. Could have beenthe most impactful thing of the entire funeral
was that it was. I'll takethat forever with me. I can still
picture my mom laying there, beautifulwith the veil on the sides, not

(52:46):
on her face, and just thesilence in there as I'm crying, and
my brother saying what he said,and then my kids hugging me so tight
like we were all in a certainMe and my kids, my fucking kids
who give me life, hugging ina circle and crying over Grandma. It

(53:07):
was. I think it's like amilestone in life. And I'm so lucky
that for me it was beautiful,because it wasn't beautiful for you when your
dad passed. You didn't have that. Well. I don't want to make
it about me, so I apologizefor sharing that earlier, but no,
no, I want to make surepivot back to you and the incredible juxtaposition

(53:30):
of these sacred circles that involved templerobes. Yeah, the one that you
had with your children next to yourmother's casket. It sounds to me as
if it was more authentic. Itwas more inclusive, it was more loving,
it was more genuine than any ofthe circles you'd been in in the

(53:51):
past. And the temple one hundredpercent. One hundred percent because any of
the temple ceremonies who I am now, I wouldn't even be like the fuck
in there so talk about not beinginclusive. But with the funeral, because
I stood up for myself, becauseI stood up against the patriarchy, I
could have just been like, oh, the bishop said no, okay,

(54:12):
well maybe someone else can do it. I don't want to make waves.
Yes, this is their religion.I don't want to make waves. But
it was like you fuck you.And I had to be far enough away
to be like, no, forreal, fuck you dude. But I
still called him first. I calledhim first, and I was gonna explain,
like why I should do this andwhy do you think I can't?
And I'm so glad he wasn't thereto answer the phone because the next thing

(54:37):
was like fuck you, No,you are nothing to me. You're not
going to be between me and mymom. What do you think would have
happened had he answered the phone,Oh god, I would have started nice.
I would have asked why. I'msure it would have come down to
a conversation about the handbook, becauseat this point I didn't know it was
there was this strict rule in thehandbook. I don't know. I don't

(55:00):
know. In the end, who'san authority? Did you ultimately appeal to
fucking mine right? The authority asthe only daughter, the only daughter to
a mother. You know, ifthere had been more daughters, maybe it
would have been easier to be like, yeah, you should probably do this,
but no, no, no,no, no, no no no.
I am a woman, I'm astrong woman. I'm her daughter.

(55:24):
This is my right. No fuckingdude is going to come over and do
this because I'm not worthy. Andyou know, conversation I had with someone
who was like, I wouldn't evenhave done the veil. Fuck that.
Why did you just say no,this is stupid, I'm not going to
do it. And I said,and this person didn't understand, but I
said, because I wasn't going toallow someone else to fucking do this.

(55:46):
I don't care if I believed itor not. No, one's taking my
place in this m and hmm.Before I went up to do the casket
and the veil, I took myshirt off. I had a shirt on
underneath. I'm sorry. I hada long sleeved topless veil placement. I
love this might have said something,you know, but to clear it up,

(56:09):
I had a long sleeve shirt onthe sky blue and then a pink
shirt underneath. I took the longsleeve shirt off almost as I don't know,
it's weird, just like I wantedto stand out. I wanted to
show my strength, like I'm doingthis, I'm with my mom. I'm
putting the veil. I have tattooseverywhere to represent what. So this is

(56:32):
my family right this, The tattooon my arm is all of my children.
And that was why there's fucking sevenof them. That's about your tattoos.
That's why I'm asking, Yeah,this is what matters to me.
And I wasn't trying to make itabout me. I was trying to make
it about fuck. How do Iword this? What was important to you
in that moment to be said?What message did you want to make sure

(56:57):
you got? Your mom got thepeople in the audience guy. But when
I take my shirt off, myouter shirt, it was me standing up
against things. It was also meshowing just because I have left this fucking
cult doesn't mean I don't want tobe part of my mom. Doesn't mean
that I feel like I shouldn't.And I also wanted to show that just

(57:21):
because I left the cult doesn't meanI can't be respectful. I'm putting the
fucking bail on. I just wantedthem to know. I wanted them to
see that I was worthy to dothis with my mom. Not worthy to
go in the tamp I don't givea fuck about this. Not worthy as
far as church terms, but meas her daughter and her my mother,

(57:42):
I was fucking worthy, tattoos andall to go up there and spend that
time with my mom before they closedthe casket, and that felt good.
Yeah, it's in there because thesecond half will be the actual funeral service
itself, because there's a lot there. Because I spoke way, I guess
to wrap up this episode, kindof cliffhanger, it is will they have

(58:05):
the funeral or not? Of coursewe have the funeral. His mom still
in the casket at the the church. Did she make it in the ground
yet, did we pull a weekendat Bernie's? Is she strapped the head
of my car? I don't know. Do I have a stick making her
handwaves? So? No, no, she's dead. What do you think
we did? I vote for aweekend at Bernie's? Fuck? Yeah,
And my mom would have too here, Indeed, she would have loved to

(58:25):
travel around the beach. Yes,sunglasses and a hat. Absolutely national Lampoon's
vacation with when grammatized on the roof? Isn't she dond like like a rocking
chair on the roof or some shit? Oh? I love it. I
love give me a combo Bernie's Lampoon, do whatever we want. I'm gonna

(58:46):
start the script now and be shortfilmed because I don't have a lot of
time these days. But you canjust get to the point where she dies,
and then she travels around like anillustrated novel, a children's book,
something like Travel with Dead Grandma orDead Grandma's Adventures. Dead Grandmas are people
too. Oh, I love itseriousness mixed with some comedic relief. You

(59:10):
have to, And that was howmy my talk was at the funeral.
I'm like you, I can't doall serious, because, as my therapist
says I, she says, Imask my sorrow with jokes, but I
feel like it kind of helps metoo, right. So, speaking of
that, I happen to bring abook called What's Your Grief? Not What's

(59:30):
Your Beef? No, What's YourGrief? Lists to help you through any
loss. I actually recently purchased thisbook. I found that it's written by
a therapist here in the DC area. I like to give this to my
clients that have experienced or are experiencinggrief, and I don't, you know,
let them read through the whole thing. I just asked them to,
you know, play this game whereyou open it to a page and see
what comes up. I like that, Do you want to play? Oh

(59:52):
shit, yes, yes, what'syour Grief? This is like picking tarot.
It's like grief tarot. Kind ofmy joking mind says. I want
to open to page sixty nine.Oh okay, why is that an important
number? I don't know, it'sfunny, but all my kids think it's
funny too, and they don't evenknow what it is. I mean,
you said sixty nine on my casta year ten. Uh So this one

(01:00:13):
says, what's your grief secret?Is that what you want me to read?
Look on those two pages and whatare you finding that's resonant with you?
Let's see, when we keep asecret, that secret is actually helping
us, maybe haunting us, maybeinviting us to reconcile with part of our
past we're hiding from, maybe keepingus from having intimate relationships with others or

(01:00:34):
ourselves. What secrets are being keptin that funeral that you were unwilling to
keep on keeping? You know,I don't think I had any, but
there was definitely didn't have any.But in that room. Yeah, there
are some big secrets that you said. No more right, And that's what
I mean. I wasn't keeping asecret, but I sure shit showed it.
Maybe the secret I was keeping wasthat I would go along with things.

(01:01:01):
And even if people know that I'mrebellious, I don't think they thought
that I would go against the bishopin the church and the handbook. No,
I don't know if all of themknew about the handbook. Shit,
I bet some of them did so, sure as shoot and bet all the
men did so. Secrets out.I am not bowing down to authority,

(01:01:22):
period. Fuck you. End ofstory. I will do what I want
and what I need to and whatmy right is according to me, not
some fucking patriarch religion. Things arecoming to my ted talk. I'm glad
I'm here. So next time youand I record, we will undoubtedly talk
about the the actually you know,the speech that you gave. Yes,

(01:01:43):
it's called a talk, Kimberly,Well, the talk that you gave.
That's right, I forgot how quicklyI've forgotten. I want to wager that
you swore in it at least one, maybe twice, that you dropped like
a swear word in your speech atleast twice. But don't tell me.
Now, let's leave the Let's letthe maybe discussion topic for the LDL groups.
How many times does Shelley swear inher talk at her mother's funeral?

(01:02:07):
My bet is at least twice?Okay. Also, the question is how
many times did Shelley make a commentthat no one would understand except for me
and Mike and Mark and David becauseit was a dig at fucking David.
Very jokes inside jokes, inside jokesthat are digs at that motherfucker who has
caused so many problems. So there'stwo cliffhanger questions, yes, swear count

(01:02:32):
and dig count. Yes, okay, yes, all right, this has
been awesome. Well there are yougoing, Kimberly. What have you been
up to? Let's hear it.Oh gosh, well you know what I've
been up to. Because we sincemove here to DC, you and I
have hung out quite a bit.I know, I love you. I'm
so glad you're here. Well,I am too, and I'm so glad
Jess has kept you in her lifebecause she's fucking amazing. Well she has

(01:02:52):
to keep me in her life.She has no choice. Good something like
being controlling girlfriend. Oh I lovea good girlfriend. I said your room
and she says, oh, okay, coming, And I say, am
I come? Sorry, not yet, give me a minute, go to
your room and clean up for toys. And she's like, oh, okay,
it sounds kind of hot. Whichtoys? The ones in the top
closet, the bottom closet, thebottom closet. But I love Jess.

(01:03:15):
She's been great. What am Ibeing up to? So got a place
here in d C with Jess.Our partnership is very committed. We're very
much in love. All of ourchallenges, you know about our lives.
Notwithstanding you meet someone later on inlife with children and with the messy you
know, situation all the way aroundboth her and me. I'm not talking
about her exclusively. We both bringtrom to the table. So thank god

(01:03:38):
we're both therapists, right, andwe can work through our challenges together and
recommit to each other almost daily.Actually, it's really really beautiful. Do
you find not to interrupted? Doyou find that in your discussions or arguments
whatever you want to call them,that their discussions okay, yeah, loud
discussions now argue of course, inyour loud discussions, do you find that

(01:03:58):
you recognize like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this behavior? This either
I do. You'll call the otherone out when they're doing that behavior.
We certainly do. Somehow it stingsmore for me when Jess calls my behavior
out shit because I don't want tobe told what's up? No, because
I certainly have the answers to mylife totally figured out. Duh. So
when Jess calls them out like stingseven more. Good for you, Jess,

(01:04:20):
Well, that's right, this iswhat I need. This is what
a healthy relationship has is caring,committed, you know, support and calling
people out on their bullshit. Ifyou don't call it out festers, and
then their resentment, and then we'rekeeping secrets, and then we're back to
grief. You're right, you're right. She owns the False Church Wellness Center
and the amazing group of therapists.Here we're in her office actually today,

(01:04:44):
So thank you Jess for letting ussteal it. Yep. And then she
and I have purchased twenty six acresout in the wine country of Loudon County,
so fun out there by the waywest of DC about an hour and
we have a wellness retreat that wecall wine Very Wellness, and it's called
Wineberry Wellness because we have wineberry vinesall over the entire properties, your harptype

(01:05:05):
property, and wineberries taste better thanraspberries. The season is very short,
so there it's like fireworks. Theycome very quickly. They're good and sweet
when you get them, and thenthey're all of a sudden they're gone.
You made jam or anything with them, you just make jam, wine,
wine beer. We just put them, you know, eat them out of
the bowl. You can put themon strawberries. They're super super yummy.

(01:05:28):
I foresee an annual Queer wineberry pickingfestival. Count me in for DC locals.
Yes, need some wineberries on Queerproperty, but we have there's a
niche for everything, absolutely, sowe do. We do a treats out
there. We do couples counseling,we do groups, small groups, larger
groups, day day things. We'rein the middle of amazing wineries. One

(01:05:49):
of the best benefits of being anex Mormon now is that my best friends
are our best friends down the roadanother couple who are lesbians. They own
a winery. Fuck. Yeah,and we've learned how to make wine.
So yes, we've learned. We'velearned. We're learning the fermentation process,
the harvesting process, the bottling process, the tasting process. I'm about that

(01:06:10):
taste. I'm learning about wine inways that certainly Mormonism would never have allowed
me to. So that's been lovey. We have wine in the sacrament.
When you're a Mormon, you know, when you're drunk off of way,
I would guarantee you there's not aliquor grape juice in this in the church
on any given Sunday except for maybesippy cups, maybe maybe when someone else
brings in. Yeah. So wehave the Wellness Retreat out there, and

(01:06:31):
she has the Wellness Center here inFalls Church. And I am just thrilled
that my life is full of joyand happiness and love with a lovely partner.
And I'm thrilled that professionally, thethings that I'm doing with my clients
is so incredibly rewarding watching them growand shift and change. Has been different

(01:06:56):
population that I'm working with here.Okay, lots of queer and trans people,
certainly, but lots of families,lots of couples, seeing lots and
lots and lots of narcissistic abuse,recovery from the narcissist or from the from
the partners victims. Do you havenarcissists come in and say I'm a narcissist,
come in with their partner, andthrough the counseling that I give them,

(01:07:18):
their partner realizes that their other personis a narcissist. Seeing some ex
Mormons, which is kind of cool. Have some ex Jewish people, have
some X Evangelicals. Nice. Sothe ven diagram of my life does overlap
tremendously with a lot of my clients, but in some cases not very much,

(01:07:40):
which is also nice. But lifefor me. Of course, I
miss Utah, the good parts ofUtah. My kids are still there,
whom I love, even though literallydon't have a relationship with either of them
or my extended family. But youknow that's temporary, at least as far
as I anticipate, you know,still looking forward rejoining with them. But

(01:08:05):
in the meantime, you know,after picking up the cards of life,
the hand that I've been dealt isstill pretty damn good. I love it.
Yeah, I love it. Thankyou for asking, of course.
Yeah, I love like I don'tknow. I love to see all my
people happy. You and I Kimberly, we kind of we we we don't
go back forever, but we goback a lot of years always, and

(01:08:25):
to just see my friend by theway, he forced it on me,
And that's fine. That those kindof people I love, because then I
feel like I'm in high demand.It kind of feeds the ego love to
be chased. Kidding c h As ed Yeah, not c h A
S t E. I was thatkind of chas for way too long.
Anyway. I love seeing like yourlife blossoming. Thank you. It's it's

(01:08:47):
phenomenal. It's fun to be partof is there if people need to get
a hold of the Wellness Center tolike talk about therapy or anything. A
website? What do you? Isthere? Something? Wow? The wellness
Center. I think it's false.Church Wellness dot Com happened to be actually
looking at a brochure that says falsechurch Wellness dot com. And if they
want to learn more about the WineberyWellness, they can follow us on Instagram

(01:09:10):
at Wineberry Wellness. That's the tag. I love it. I love it.
Y'all do good things. We're trying, and we're doing you do right,
like Yoda says, do or not, there's try. I guess we'll
wrap it up right there. Idon't know. Steer clear of cults,
we say that, yeah, ifyou can, if you can, clearly

(01:09:31):
I couldn't. I mean the cult, but it was just hard to steer
clear of it when you're born intoit, yes, and your family's still
in it. But there's a wayI have I whatever we're going over time
here, but I have come toa happy spot. After the funeral,
I'm realized I'm at my happy spot. Who what I can do as far
as the cult is concerned. AndI wasn't quite there yet because I didn't

(01:09:51):
know I was. I didn't knowthis ship was going to go down with
can I. I'm not supposed totouch sacred shit according to them, So
yeah, I'll talk more about thaton the next episode we cover with this,
But thank you for listening to me. Sure, all right, folks,
that's it. Today's takeaway from mefor this podcast was the following message,

(01:10:14):
It's just a hat, just afucking hat, that's all, folks.
See you next time.