179: Austin Gets a Penis Part 2

Remember in the last episode when Shelly and Austin were discussing Austin's soon-to-be new dick? Well, this is part two. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
In this episode, we are parttwo with Austin Arrowwood. This one is
called Austin Gets a Dick. Ifyou haven't listened to part one, you're
like what or we just trust me? Okay, if you're listening to this
you didn't listen to part one,go ahead and get to part one.
I have Austin Arrowwood here. Weare doing an interview and Austin gets dick

(00:22):
surgery slash bottom surgery next week,and so we are going to discuss so
be right back. Well, hellothere, this is Hellllo. This is
Shelley from Latderday Lesbian podcast, theex Mormon gay girl, just trying to

(00:43):
figure out life. I'm here withAustin and we are continuing our discussion.
Austin, how you doing. I'mgood. How are you? I am
great? Are you ready to talkabout body parts? Absolutely sweet? Okay,
So quick review. The last episodekind of went over some of your
history. Again, go listen toit if you haven't yet. We already

(01:04):
talked about your boob surgery. Thosecame off. Basically that was just about
the best thing ever for you asfar as your mental health, your physical
health. So at what point wereyou then thinking hmmm, so boobs are
gone, now what? So Iwould say it was after after I started

(01:26):
to lose weight and I can actuallysee my another regents because you know,
I had a postpartum belly, youknow, I get it. Yeah,
so, and I just started tofeel like I still wasn't complete, like
I thought I would be okay withoutit, and then I was like,

(01:49):
no, I'm really not. Butwhen you're on testosterone, you get bottom
growth, so okay, you know, the clatorius grows and it can get
up to two or three inches long. Honestly, see, these are things
that I don't know, so feelfree to like spill all all the goods.
Yeah, so you have like alittle mini penis, like a micro

(02:10):
penis, but I still have myfemale parts as well, and I had
had my uterus, cervix, ovaries, tubes, everything removed, so there's
nothing in there, but it stillreacts to sexual pleasure the same way.
So you get you know, moisturewhatever, gotcha. I hate that word,
but yeah, okay, yeah,but it grosses me out like and

(02:32):
it always has, and so Iwas like, I want that gone.
And I have been trying to peestanding up since I was little, Like
that's not easy, by the way, as with woman parts, not easy.
Not with the anatomy I was bornwith. I have dribbled down my
legs so many times trying to standover a toilet because I thought boys were

(02:53):
cooler than girls. Yeah, ohwell yeah. And I remember being with
my friend. My best friend wasa boy when I was ten. We
were dirt biking in the woods andhe, of course could pee on a
tree, and I was like,well, I should be able to do
that too, because I realized Iwasn't a boy, and it did not
work, and I peed all downmy pants and I was like, what

(03:14):
the hell, Like that is notcool. So one of the huge bad
parts about having the female anatomy isthe inability to properly pee on a tree
exactly. Yeah. You know,like if you have to pee when you're
driving down the highway, you can'tjust pull over and pee on the side
of the highway. No, it'slike you got you pee all over your

(03:34):
leg? How do you wipe?Like now your socks are wet? I
get it. Yeah's been there yea. So so I just decided that I
needed bottom surgery. And I knewthat, but then I had to decide
what bottom surgery I wanted because foryou know, for male to female,
there's really only one. There's thevaginal plast and that did well for female

(03:59):
to You can either do a metoidoplasty, which is basically where they just release
the clatorus from the ligaments that surroundit so it can extend to its full
length, and then they seal upthe vaginal canal. If you want it
sealed up, they can extend theurethra to the tip of the clatorus and
then you you know, turn thelaby into a scrot them in there you
go with falloplasty, there's a littlemore involved to it. So at first

(04:24):
I wasn't going to do that becauseI thought, I really don't want the
scar. You know, they takemy forearm and they will take a graft
from my forearm that's like five incheslong, goes all the way around your
forearm, and then they take anothergraph from your leg to cover that spot
and they make the phallus out ofyour forearm. Why do they use the
forearm skin? Is it more similarto penis skin? Is that correct?

(04:46):
Yeah? So it's the texture,the elasticity, everything is very similar to
a natal penis. And then There'salso the sensation is better in your forearm.
So if you take your finger andyou rub it along the inside of
your forearm compared to like the insideof your thigh, there's definitely more sensation.
So they try the area with themost sensation and the best blood flow,

(05:12):
which generally is people's arms. Mostpeople have better blood flow in their
arms than they do in their legs, so they're going for the best blood
flow, the best nerve supply,and the best skin that resembles a natal
penis. So I was really hesitantto do that at first. I was
like, I think I could justdo the metoio plasty and I'd be okay
with that. Had you spoken toany doctors yet or are you just kind

(05:33):
of looking online at this point andlooking at options. I had been looking
at falloplasties online for like ten years. Oh wow. Yeah. So before
I even came out as trans,I was looking up the surgery, like,
okay, let's talk about that,Austin. You suld do that whole
thing. Jesus Austin, this issome big shit. Okay. So before

(05:55):
you even came out as trans,you were looking at at surgeries that a
trans person would get So then,were you thinking you were trans you just
didn't want to admit to it,or you were curious what was going on?
No, I knew, like Isaid, I knew when when I
was twenty five, I knew.I just couldn't vocalize it because I did

(06:19):
not want to hurt anyone. Ididn't want to hurt my family. I
didn't want to hurt my kids.I was so afraid of the backlash people
pleaser, I get it. Yeah, I was like, I can't do
this. I can't hurt them.So you're getting information, but in your
mind, are you just it's curiositybecause you're not going to actually do it

(06:42):
right, or were you maybe hopefullyyou know. I was like one of
those people that was like, ifI could go to sleep and wake up
with a penis, it wouldn't bethe worst thing, you know. So
it's kind of like cool, LikeI wasn't really looking at I'm going to
do this to myself. It wasmore Wow, science is so cool,

(07:03):
Like they can do that, theycan wow, you know, like this
is amazing. And so when Iwould tell people about it and they would
give me a weird look, Iwould be like, I'm just amazed at
what science can do, like,isn't this cool? Like, well,
so was there other science things youlooked into or was it just the people?
Come on now, yeah, Iresearched all the science stuff. Okay,

(07:28):
I bet yeah no so uh yeah, my Google searches were kind of
weird, but I bet yeah.So I had been looking like into surgery,
it's like that for like ten years. So I it was more amount
of when I decided I'm going todo bottom surgery, it was what do
I want to have done? Andthere were things that I knew were non

(07:49):
negotiables for me. I wanted tovagnect me because I cannot stand having any
kind of pole there. And Iwanted you rethrow linkedening because I want to
stand to pee like. Those weremy two non negotiables. After that,
it was do I want well withthe matoidoplast. The issue is some men

(08:09):
can't clear their fly because there's notenough lengths when you're only using an extended
clatorus to clear the fly in likepeet a urnal, so I would still
have to go into a stall.Gota got you, gotcha? And most
female born people have not been inmen's restrooms in a man's men's restroom in
like a store or whatever, there'sgenerally one stall and three urnals. So

(08:31):
if someone's in there watching a gameon their phone, which generally seems to
be the case, or playing agame or whatever trying to kill time,
then if people have to use thestall, they have to wait. So
you know where women seem to goin, they pee, they wash their
hands, and they leave. Youknow, men go in the bathroom and

(08:52):
kill time in the stall if it'savailable. So, and the stalls are
always disgusting in men's bathrooms, they'regross. So I was like, okay,
Jenny, the p is not negotiable. I say, Plus, urinals
are very cool. They are.I mean I have gone drunk, thank
you, drunk into a men's restroombecause women's was packed and thought this would

(09:15):
be fun to use the urinal.Now I don't have a penis. I
made a mess. I was drunk, But like, they're just one of
those cool things I think that youjust have to experience once in your life.
Yeah, all right, so youwant to be able to pece standing
up, which I get. I'mnot making light of that, like like
yeah, that's yeah, I getit. Yeah, And no, vaginal

(09:37):
canal. So those were my two, Like have two? What do you?
I know, I'm really prying.Now let's talk about the vaginal canal.
Is it gross to you? Isit too female for you? What
is it that makes you like Idon't want that? All of the above?
Yeah, Like it was always grossto me. So from the time

(09:58):
I was old enough that I startedhaving any kind of discharge. So I
was like, this is disgusting,Like this is so gross. I don't
what is the point of this wholething. Ew So you know, I
had an eating disorder when I wasa teenager to stop my periods. So
I had like three percent body fatin high school. Okay, let's talk

(10:18):
about that. You just skimmed overthis part of your life, Jesus awten.
And this is why this is nowa two parts interview. So you
what was it about your period?Was it because it was such a female
thing that you didn't want to have, or was you just like gross in
general? It was a reminder thatI had the wrong body every month and

(10:41):
wow, you know, so Iwould get suicidal every month when my period
would start, and I was like, this is so gross. It's just
gross, Like why what is thepoint of this, And of course I
knew it's so you could have babies. Bah whatever. No, it's like
it's still disgusting, Like can't wejust do away with it? And You're

(11:03):
not the first trans man that I'veheard say that about having their period is
like practically a death sentence every month, like this is so horrible. I
don't want to be here anymore becausethis is so bad, because it's just
not who you are right right.Well, And there was also the my
mom had the you couldn't use tampon'srule, shut the fuck up. Yeah,

(11:28):
so I only got pads, andyou know, they didn't have the
nice little thin pads that they havenow that they were pillows back then.
Yeah, And so I was likeeveryone could see it in the outline of
your pants, you know, likethey were just disgusting. And I was
like you you like, ah,so yeah, no, it was horrible.

(11:54):
Yeah. So you knew that ifyou lost enough weight, your period
would likely stop, right, Yeah, that was some science I found out
by accident. Actually really tell me. Yeah, So I started self harming
probably around the time my period started. It started restricting food. I joined
the track team so I would getup and I would do a paper out

(12:16):
in the morning at four. ThenI went to seminary, then I went
to school. After school, Ihad track practice. I would come home
from track practice and I would runanother ten miles Jesus. I usually ate
once a day. So and itwas not a lot of food, like
an apple, maybe a sandwich,and that was it. Why Because I
hated my body, telling you,okay, I wanted to be just all

(12:39):
muscle, like got it, Okay, you didn't like the curves and the
baby fat and the female okay,okay, I did not want boobs.
So while I was doing all that, I had no boobs. I was
three percent body fat and I hadno period. So I was like,
yes, like teenage boyhood without havingthe boy you know, super healthy choices.

(13:03):
Austin huh yeah, God, ohthat makes me sad, but I'm
sure so many people do that.Wow. Yeah, you know. I
always thought I was fat too growingup, and I don't it. Maybe
I wasn't, but it was like, you know, just the girl padding.
I had boobs and I had youknow, like when you hit puberity,

(13:26):
you start women's their hips spread alittle bit. Not that I did
that much I still have my boyhips. But any kind of like that
padding that's natural and healthy for awoman when you don't feel like you're a
woman and that hits you that,I can only imagine how that would feel.
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't Itwasn't good. Did your parents know

(13:48):
that you were that you had aneating disorder? Was that anything that you
talked about? No? No,I mean they kind of figured out I
was self injuring, but I wouldtell them I got beat up by a
bully at school, or that Itripped and fell, or how were you
self injuring? I would cut myselfwith anything I could get hold of.
I would hit myself in the face, like smash my face against stuff.

(14:11):
Yeah, that kind of stuff.And when you were doing that, why
what was your brain telling you?So most people who self injure do it
because the pain inside is so greatthat if they can refocus it to external
pain, it makes it go away. Not for our long time, but

(14:35):
for a little bit. You canignore the pain internally because you're focusing on
a pain externally. Gotcha, that'show it was for you. Wow,
at what age were you doing that? Did you start when you start your
period? Said roughly yeah, okay, So so in your mind, then
did you recognize that it was becauseyou didn't feel like your gender and your

(15:00):
parts lined up, like did youhave the maturity? I guess the thought
pattern of this is why I'm doingthis, or you're just were like,
I hurt, I need to stophurting. It was I hurt and my
body is wrong. Not that itdidn't align, because I didn't really put
that together because I didn't think thatwas an option. So it was just
it felt wrong. So it's oneof those things where if you always feel

(15:24):
wrong in your body but you don'tknow why, you're just kind of like
I just feel wrong, like,you know, And I couldn't really put
words to it because I didn't know, like, I just knew it felt
wrong. So that's what I wouldtell people, like I just feel wrong.
And they're like, but you're you'refine, you know, I got
you're cute. You should be acheerleader, you know, blah blah blah,

(15:46):
and that's what you want to do. Yeah. Well, and they
wanted me to be the flyer,you know, so because I was tiny,
so they were like, we wantyou to be the flyer, you
know, And I was like,no, Like, if I'm in a
cheerlead, I want to be likeon the bottom of the pyramid. Yeah,
and I want to are peeling thosegirls up yeah, you know right,
you know, like if I canlook up their skirts. Cool.

(16:06):
Yeah, I don't want to hearyou know, sit on my hand.
I'll hold you above my head.Absolutely. I don't want to be up
in the air like no, ohwow. So so how long? And
I know we're hopping around because that'show my brain works. How long did
you continue with this pattern of selfharm? Like? Did this go well

(16:27):
into adulthood and marriage and everything?Oh? Yeah, yeah, up until
pop surgery? Really yeah your therapist? Did you tell your therapist about it?
M h? And their response wasthey knew. I mean, of
course they wanted me to stop.I signed so many safety agreements through the

(16:47):
years, you know whatever. Youjust get better at hiding, yeah,
what you're doing. Yeah. SoI just thought of a question, what
was it like for you? Youbeing pregnant and having a child. That's
probably people will look a look atthat as being like the most womanly thing
a woman can do, right,What was that like for you? I

(17:11):
didn't mind being pregnant I had easypregnancies. Uh, and my periods stopped.
Ah, good point, you know, so for the pregnancy plus breastfeeding,
I didn't have to worry about it. That was definitely a bonus.
It was weird, I guess likeI would. I remember watching my stomach

(17:33):
when you could see like the baby'sfeet move across, your hands move across,
and being like an alien. Youknow, it's just kind of weird.
But but I mean, it isweird, let's be honest. Yeah
it is, but it wasn't bad. It wasn't bad. It wasn't You
don't know if it was extraordinarily weirdfor you because you felt like a man.
Yeah no, I felt just disconnected. Okay, I get you.

(17:56):
That makes sense. Like I couldlook at it as I'm growing a baby.
Mm hmm, so it was likea science clinical Okay. Yeah,
I'm thinking about this in my headbecause I'm thinking about how I felt being
pregnant, and it was again I'mnot trans. It was fine. I
didn't feel extraordinarily womanly. I didhate how huge my boobs got, but

(18:18):
that's just because I am not afan of having huge boothe but it's not
because I'm trans. I just don'tlike huge boobs. What was that like
for you? I mean, didyour boobs get huge? So I was
a double D prior to pregnancy toa G they make those, yeah,
yeah they do. It looked likewatermelons on both sides. I was,

(18:38):
Yeah, I did not like thatpart at all, right, right,
And I remember I googled a lotof breast reduction, you know, like
what what would you need to geta medical brass or rest reduction? Yeah,
and I never liked those. Idid have an issue with that.
What about nursing? Was that weird? Not really, but again and I

(19:00):
kind of detached myself from it.I guess we just like I'm feeding my
kid, and you know it waslike I'm just feeding my mother child bonding.
No, I mean it wasn't thatway for me either, because I
hate breastfeeding. But again, nottrans I'm just as I'm thinking of things
that I didn't like about pregnancy.Yeah, just wondering like was that like
the breastfeeding that's such a again inquotation woman thing to do, but you

(19:25):
just sort of disconnect it. You'rejust feeding a kid. Yeah. I
looked at it as well. It'seasier than making bottles and it's healthy,
and you know, like it wasall just a it was a process.
So I guess I was good atdisconnecting myself from my body. But I
had to do that in order tohave sex. Good point, Oh you
want to talk Do you want totalk about that? Sure? I mean,

(19:45):
yeah, I I married my exhusband because he courced me into having
sex prior to us being married.Gotcha, I knew I was chewed gum
and no one would want me becauseI had been tainted. You have no

(20:07):
choice at that point in my mind, I had no choice. I was
seventeen, Like right, you know, seventeen year old aren't smart? So
whatever. Yeah, So anyone listeningthat doesn't have a Mormon or religious background,
there's this teaching in the Mormon Churchand other churches that the girls are
taught from go right, to keepyourself clean and pure for your future husband,

(20:33):
like this is your value as beinga virgin and being chased, and
I fucking hate that shit. Sothere there would be teachings like in class
as you're a teenager, a teenagegirl, about would you chew somebody's already
chewed gum? No, you wouldn't. Well guess what if you're not a
virgin, you're chewed gum. Therewas one of the teaching. I remember

(20:56):
that teaching, and I remember aboutthe who wants apple with a bite already
taken out of it? Right?More recently, in in the last ten
years, it was do you reallywant a cracked iPad? You know,
like, what the fuck? Whata horrible teaching. And I know that
I've talked about this a shit toneon multiple episodes of the podcast because it's

(21:18):
so so damaging. But you know, look at what it did to you.
Again, you chose to marry him, did you? Did you really?
Right? Right? Like, no, you didn't because because you're only
worth is being a virgin for yourself, right, and so since your virginity
was gone, it's it's him orno one in your mind. I'm sure

(21:42):
I was not a virgin when Igot married, and so I this is
going to sound horrible. I wouldhave married whatever boy, man, whatever
came along and was willing to marryme. Right. I remember you saying,
you know, it's like whoever,what have you? Because you're taught

(22:03):
your value just went like you know, strike driving a used car off the
lot, you know, like,yeah, your value just decreased by seventy
five percent, Like what, soit's so fucked up, it's so fucked
up, And so then you endup having these marriages that should have never
happened in the first place. Mh. Which is why the divorce rate

(22:25):
is astronomical. Astronomical. It's funnytoo, and I'm going off track here,
but you know, people in thechurch will talk about how wicked the
world is getting that, you know, the divorce rates are so high,
and if you leave the church,your family will fall apart, your marriage
will fall apart. In that psychbecause you're doing wicked things. But no,

(22:48):
no, no, no. Ithink people who leave the church,
a lot of them recognize I nevershould have gotten married to this person.
And it's not a dis on theother person. I'm just saying, they're
like, there' see, I shouldnever I would never do this in the
real world with my actual brain functioningand be making choices on my own.
And that's why the marriage is end. It's not because now you're a sinner.

(23:11):
It's because you're finally able to useyour brain and recognize this shit should
never have happened. Like, wow, we have nothing in common. We
you know, let right, wehate each other. I don't even want
to have coffee with you, Like, what what the fuck? I you
know? Uh yeah, So no, you don't just leave the church and

(23:32):
become wicked and that's why your familyfalls apart. You leave the church and
you start thinking about your life andyou're going, oh hmm, yeah,
that that was a bad choice thatwas made. Choice in quotations that was
made. Yeah, I don't knowwhat got me off on that tangent?
Oh the so the sex with thewith the husband. So the reason that
you got married was because you werenow tainted, right, So well,

(23:53):
if you're gonna get married, it'sgonna have to be him. And that's
such a healthy way to start amarriage. Absolutely, it's the best way
to start a marriage. So,so, did you guys get married civilly
and then went to the temple ordid we wait a year? Yeah?
Uh, we got married civilly andthen a year later went through the temple,
and of course that was the disappointmentof the family. You know,

(24:15):
got to have a civil wedding becauseyou're you know, the center. Did
your bishop do the wedding? Hedid, and he gave the lovely speech,
you know, that that's like,now, remember that this is only
for time because blah blah blah,and when you die, you're not going
to be together anymore, and theonly way to do that is to go

(24:37):
through the temple. And it's like, you know, like your wedding is
just one huge, like lecture,and it's like it was like a death
or something, and you're like,wow, this is such a great occasion.
I'm so happy I'm doing this,Like, wow, let's let's celebrate.
I'm like, what is wrong withyou people? So well, you
probably knew, I mean, hadyou had you been to civil weddings before,

(25:00):
like been to wine seeing that shit? Okay, so did were you
prepared for the lecture you were gettingthere? Okay? Yeah, I went
to a friend's wedding. I meanI was probably twenty at the time,
I guess, and she had gottenpregnant and so they had a civil wedding
first, so she had to hurryand get married before she was starting to
show, right, But everyone knows, like if you're Mormon and you're getting

(25:23):
married not in the temple, peopleknow it's either because you got knocked up
or you're for sure having sex,Like that's that's oh yeah, and you're
not gonna stop having sex, Soyou're gonna get married and then go to
the temple in a year. You'regonna have sex for that year. It's
ridiculous, But I remember the bishop, uh there, and these, by
the way, are not temple weddingswhen the bishop is doing them like in
the cultural hall for listeners who don'tknow that, by the way, the

(25:47):
cultural hall is basically a gym.Yeah. I think we did a whole
episode about like the ridiculous decorations ina cultural or wedding streamers from the basketball
hoops. Yep, hell yeah,uh. Anyway, it's I don't know
if the bishop is instructed to saythis. He probably is, or they
just can't resist the urge to pointout that your wedding valves that you're saying

(26:08):
they're in the gym slash cultural hallare not for time and all eternity.
It's till death do us part.And it is driven home to you that
you fucked up by having to getmarried for time only, and that the
only way to have this person foreternity is to basically get your shit together

(26:33):
and go to the temple in ayear. Yep. Yep. And if
you die on the way home fromyour from your honeymoon, you're fought.
Well, you're done, like notgetting into heaven. Now that's such a
Jesus thing to do, by theway, to just fucking separate people who
love each other. Right, No, Well, well, you know,
when my daughter got married in thetemple, I had a bunch of people,

(26:56):
you know, who would make commentsto me like you're choosing a lesbian
lifestyle over being in your daughter's wedding, And I'm like, not really,
Like I'm not the one who choseto get married in the temple. I'm
not the one who chose to excludeme from the ceremony. Like that's the
church that chose that. You're alsonot the one who chose to be a

(27:18):
lesbian, like right, Like thatyou didn't choose to be attracted to women,
right. And I had another childwho had already left the church.
So I was like, so you'retelling me that I'm basically having to choose
between my children because when I die, you know, if I go to
heaven, I'm not going to seehim, But if I go to Hell,
I'm not going to see her.So so I have to choose God,
Like, does God really do that? Does he make you choose between

(27:41):
your children? No kind of supremebeing that I would ever believe in would
do that, Like, that's somebullshit, but I hadn't thought about that.
So with you having one kid that'sMormon and a believer and one that's
not, Like, if you becomesuper Mormon again, not that that will
ever happen, so that you cango to the highest Kingdom of Heaven and
be with your super obedient family.That's like telling you your non Mormon kid,

(28:07):
like, sorry, I'm gonna gobe with the righteous people, right,
right, But if you choose tolive your authentic life, which I
would say would be good for thekid who's not a member, right,
you're setting the example of being trueto yourself. Well, now you're excluding
yourself fraternity from being with your superMormon kid. Yeah that's so fucked up.

(28:33):
Yeah, but people don't see that. Oh Mormon's you know all about
family really yeah really yeah Jesus.Anyway, that was quite the offshoot tantrum
that got no one here to reallyback in. So I'm just going for
it works for me. Okay,So you had to get married sex with

(28:56):
the husband was this just like thisconnect, this isn't happening. Whatever,
be done with it? Yeah,like out of body kind of yeah,
disconnect. So I know for me, it was hard for me because again
I'm a lesbian. That's kind ofa name of the podcast. So having

(29:17):
straight sex was not a thing thatI really wanted to do. And so
because I did something sexual but Ididn't want to do, I always felt
cheap, kind of like a whore. And this wasn't put on me by
my husband at all. He didn'teven know I was having these thoughts at
all. This was just my internalconversation anything like that. For you,

(29:38):
what was it? It was morelike being raped, Yeah, because you're
doing what you don't want to do. I'm sorry. I think a lot
of women in marriages go through that. Whether you're straight or gay, it
doesn't matter, but I think thata lot of women just kind of like,

(30:02):
well, this is my job,this is what I'm supposed to do.
Well, yeah, because if hemasturbates or watches port, it's your
fault, right doing your job.Yeah, he's not getting enough. Yeah,
So you know, it's like you'reresponsible for your own salvation and your
husband's salvation and your kid's salvation.And that's a lot of people that you're
trying to get into heaven, youknow, So aren't you glad we'd have

(30:23):
to worry about getting people to heavenanymore. Hallelujah, let'm worry it's about
themselves. Let's just all go tohell Jesus, It's gonna be way better.
Yeah. So, how many yearswere you married? I was married
for ten years. Okay, soten years of just trying to toe the
line. M h and I duringyour marriage? Was that a lot of

(30:45):
the time that you spent in andout of facilities for mental health? I
think it's been about once a yearfor the last four years we were married.
Yeah. And then I was like, I can't do this. Yeah.
Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. That's some deep shit. I

(31:07):
hate that for you and for everyone. And by the way, thank you
for being vulnerable enough to share this. I mean, this is some deep,
dark shit that I'm sure there arepeople right now listening that are like,
oh wow, I thought I wasthe only one who went through that,
But there's a lot of people thathave silently suffered, and I think
people like you being willing to talkabout it just saves lives. I really

(31:30):
believe that I do. Yeah.So back to penis talk. Yes,
let's jump. So last episode whenwe spoke, we talked about you know,
you got divorced and the girlfriend,the wife, etc. Et cetera.
Then you are to the point ofdeciding, yes, I would like

(31:56):
bottom surgery. So you've been researched, seeing different types, You've talked about
that before. At what point didyou decide, all right, let's talk
to a doctor. I wanted tosay. That was twenty twenty one.
Yeah, and then once you schedulethe consult they're like six months out.
So at that time they were sixmonths out and now they're years. So,

(32:16):
by the way, what's the processdo you have to anymore have like
a psychiatrist say yes, this personneeds this surgery. What's the process.
So when I had my consult soagain this was twenty twenty one, I
had to have three letters. Ihad to have one from a medical professional,
my doctor who prescribed my hormones,stating how long I'd been on testosterone.

(32:38):
I had to have a letter frommy therapist saying how long I had
been presenting as mail. And Ihad to have a letter from an additional
therapist stating that they agreed with thefirst therapist that I actually did have gender
dysphoria, as this is, youknow, a persistent pattern of belief that
I am in the wrong body.So how do you feel? How do

(33:00):
you feel about that? I haveno opinion on that at this point,
I haven't thought about it. What'syour opinion? Having three people need to
kind of agree with you. Youknow a lot of people are upset about
that. I personally feel for bottomsurgery for gender confirmation surgery because it's considered
an irreversible surgery. You know thatit wasn't a bad thing to have multiple

(33:25):
people have to agree that this isactually something I'm dealing with. You know,
it's the same thing with people aresaying that miners are getting gender confirmation
surgery. No they're not, they'renot. You know, a sixteen year
old cannot go into the doctor's officeand be like I want a penis and
have surgery scheduled a week later.Like, that's not going to happen.
You know. For me, itwas I had to be in therapy for
at least a year. I hadto be on testosterone for at least a

(33:49):
year. I had to be presentingas my desired gender for at least a
year, like those are the minimumrequirements. So and that means you're out
socially, you're out at work,you're out at home, you're out to
your friends. You are that genderin all your dealings every day. So
not I just put on address everyonce in a while, and or you

(34:09):
know, I just put on pantsevery once in a while. Like,
no, it was not an easyprocess. And then once I had my
console, so I actually had consoleswith two different surgeons for folloplasty and two
different surgeons for metoidoplasty, so I'vehad four consoles all together. To talk
about there, to look at abunch of surgical photos which are not at

(34:31):
all pleasant to look at. They'revery gory, to hear about complications,
to hear about the preparation, youknow, and then it was like,
okay, your BMI has to beunder this amount. You have to not
carry your weight in this way.I had to get a stomach surgery done
first to remove the excess skin frompregnancies. Really, so that was back

(34:54):
in August that they had to gointo that as like a mini tummy tuck
because the overhanging skin can cut offblood supply to the fallac and create cause
it to fall off, so whichyou obviously don't want to happen. We
don't want that, right, Theseare good things. These are good things
to know. I would never wouldhave known anything about this, the things

(35:15):
that you have to go through tobe spiteful. And then X husband,
right exactly, you know, becauseI can't my ex husband and then yeah,
you know, and then I hadto do hair removal on my arm
that took almost a full two years. I did laser and electrolysis. So
I have spent over three thousand dollarsof my own money to remove hair from

(35:37):
my arm so that it won't growback ever. That right, because they
use the interior of your arm.So I'll kind of show you here,
So my arm, where my tattoois, that will actually be inside my
urethra. So they create the urethraout of your inner form and then the
external form will be the exterior ofthe penis. So it has to be

(36:00):
completely hairless at least on the insidefor sure, because any hair that you
can grow in the urethra can causeissues for sure. Yeah, okay,
so you have to go through that. You know, I had to lose
weight. I had to get thesurgery to remove the excess skin. Yeah,
Like if you smoke, which Idon't. I never been on.

(36:20):
You don't just wake up when morningdecide hey, I'm a man, I'm
going to go get a penis.Like, that's not how it works.
That's how some people would watch peopleto think that it works. And you
know, the kind of like ascare tactic of well, now people just
decide one day they're a boy andthey go and they butcher them their bodies
up. That's not how it goesdown. Yeah. No, no,

(36:44):
if it were that easy, somepeople would be very happy. But to
even get on testosterone is not thateasy. Like top surgery was two letters.
I had to have two letters toget top surgery. So you know,
it's a lot of meeting with mentalhealth professionals and having to prove who
you are repeatedly. And you know, it's like if someone if your kid

(37:07):
comes to you and they say Ifeel like a boy, and they're five
or six years old, and youjust repeatedly tell them, well you're not,
you're a girl, shut up,go away, you know whatever.
Like I don't know, I feellike that's crushing a part of who they
are. Yeah, and it's notthat hard to say, Okay, that's
how you feel, why don't you. You know, if they want to

(37:30):
cut their hair, let them cuttheir hair. It's hair, it'll grow
back. If they want to wearboys clothes or girls clothes, let them
wear the clothes they want to wear. Their clothes, they're covering their naked
body. Who cares? You know. It's kind of like boy toys and
girl toys. Toys are toys,you know, Like if my kids wanted
to play with toys, they playedwith whatever they wanted to play with.
I did not care. I justwanted to be quiet. I don't care

(37:50):
what you're playing with. Just bequiet and do it. Yeah. And
I was like, the world isso gendered, and they try to stick
kids in boxes. Kids don't fitin boxes. People don't fit in boxes.
And I think if they just laidoff and let kids be who they
are, there are kids who willsay their trans until they hit a certain
point and then they're like, actuallyI don't feel that way anymore, No

(38:13):
harm, no foul, right,you know, they go on with their
life exactly. And on top ofthat if if the kid truly is trans
and you're telling them their whole childhoodthat they're not, they're gonna have some
some fucking issues. And if they'renot truly trans, they're they're gonna change

(38:36):
back, change their opinion or whathave you. Anyway, So just be
supportive and let them figure their shitout, right right, yeah right,
And that's why I've had actually severalfriends come to me who know that I
transitioned. They've come to me laterdown the road and said, my child
just came out to me as trans, and I need to know what to
do. These are people who Iknew from the church, so people I

(38:58):
grew up with in the church andthey're kids have come out to them as
trans, and they've come to mebecause they know they saw me as a
teenager, and they're like, whatdo I do? And I'm like,
you listen to them, respect thatthey know themselves, and let them do
puberty blockers because the only thing thatwill do is stop puberty. That's it.

(39:22):
It doesn't hurt them, and ifthey change their mind, they stop
them, and their puberty starts likeit's supposed to and they go into their
natural puberty. But if they trulyare. Trans It stops their period and
it stops boob growth, and thatcould save mental health. It's like if
I had been able to do that, Yeah, wow, we know so

(39:44):
much more now than was out youknow, years and years and years ago.
And again it's because people talk aboutit, right. I mean,
if someone could have understood you asa child and you, if you would
have had access to puberty blockers asyou're just kind of figuring your shit out,
you likely wouldn't have been punching yourselfin the face and cutting yourself.

(40:05):
And you know it would have beenso people who are listening now, I
guess you would tell them what youjust said, like, love your kids,
support your kid. You know,it's it's only hair, and believe
your kids. Believe your kids,yes, and that's with any kind of
thing they tell you. You know, they're they're queer, they're whatever.

(40:25):
Just believe them. They know themselvesbetter than you do. Even though you're
their parent and you think you knowthem better than anyone in the world.
No one knows you better than you. And you can raise your kids however
you want to raise them. They'regoing to do what they're gonna do.
If you love them, you'll atleast have the good relationship with them,

(40:47):
so you'll know your child not Youknow, my parents didn't know me.
They didn't know me until then.Now they know me now years old nine.
Yeah, you know, I thinkof the relationship I could have had
with them if they'd known me allalong. Yes, think of the relationship

(41:08):
they could have had with you ifthey had known you all along. That's
beautiful. And one thing I oftentell people, and this is something that
I heard a long time ago,you know, it was would you rather
have a dead child or a gaychild? You know? With my parents,
it was what would you rather havea dead daughter or a live son?

(41:31):
Yeah? Either way? That personyou knew doesn't exist anymore, right
that person? Yeah? Absolutely,So you can know the person who is
here, or you can have norelationship with your child at all. Would
you rather? Right? I know? Wow? Huh some deep shit.

(41:51):
Okay, back to this upcoming surgery. So you had to go you had
to be years of a stomach surgeryto get rid of any kind of overhanging
flesh from from your baby making days. Uh, letters from doctors stopping your
hair from growing on your arm?What else? What else? Are you

(42:13):
your preparations. Uh, let's see. I mean that's pretty much it for
physical preparations. I guess, youknow, getting in shape, you have
to make sure you have good cardiovascularand blah blah blah. But the surgery
itself, you know, is nota picnic. So this is a nine
to twelve hour surgery in the operatingroom that you're under und stea show.

(42:35):
So starting today, I had tostart showering with hippocleans, the antiseptic cleanser.
I have to do that every morning. I have to do it the
night before surgery and the morning ofsurgery. I'm four days away now,
four days okay, the day beforesurgery, so Sunday I have to do
a colon cleanse, like is ifyou're having a colonoscopy, So you get

(42:57):
to do the lovely prep where you'reyou know, in the bathroom all day
because you have to be completely empty. So yeah, so you're on like
a clear liquid diet. The daybefore surgery, you're doing the colon cleanse.
The morning of surgery, you know, it's the hospital six hours after
surgery. You're in the ICU thefirst night because you can end up having

(43:17):
to go back for emergency surgery anytimein the first twelve hours after you're done.
You still don't get to eat forthe first twenty four hours after surgery.
Oh, that would be the worstpart. Yeah. Yeah, So
at this point it'll be like threedays with no solid food by the time
I can finally eat again. Andall of all of this to spite your
ex husband. Wow, yes,you see how much I hate him.

(43:45):
So you're in the hospital for fivedays. You're flat on your back for
the first four so you can't evensit in a chair like you know.
I will have four drains and twocatheters coming out of my body. I
will have a wound back on myarm and dressing on my leg. They

(44:07):
have like a cloud, they callit the cloud. It goes around the
pallas to keep it at a fortyfive degree angle away from your body because
it has to stay in that positionto make sure that the blood flow stays
good, that nothing detaches where itshouldn't. And then on day five you
can be discharged from the hospital.We have to stay in California for five

(44:28):
weeks. I have postop visits everyweek. So this is you know,
you're paying for a rental in California, which is not cheap. Plus your
normal house bills back at home,you know, so it's yeah, it's
a very expensive. The surgery outof pocket is over one hundred thousand dollars.

(44:50):
I'm lucky that my insurance covers alot of it. But there's still
the travel, you know, allthe hair removal, none of that was
covered, all of that stuff,So it's still a lot of money.
It's a lot of money, alot of time, a lot of mental
you know, when you think aboutbeing in a hospital bed for five days,

(45:10):
like that's a lot of mental crap. So especially for someone who's active,
like right by you, Yeah,what are your what are your worries?
My worries are mostly recovery, themental aspect of recovery. Like I've

(45:30):
had twelve surgeries. I think Idon't even know a lot of surgeries.
And the main thing I'm concerned aboutis the length of time I have to
be inactive after this one, LikeI can't ride a bike for four to
six months. That's going to behard. Because they're the vaginectomy, they

(45:51):
cauterize the vaginal canal, so theycompletely seal it shut. It's cauterized it's
gone, and that's painful that,you know, you can't sit, especially
on a saddle which I have likea racing bike, can't run for at
least, you know, eight weeks. I think it is so basically my
physical activity. And I was onewho was going to the gym like five

(46:14):
times a week. So yeah,it's you can't work out, you know,
I can't work like, I can'tdo my job. So I'm like,
mentally, it's going to be reallyhard for me. I'm not a
person who can sit and do nothingever, so I never have been.
I have add really bad, soI'm I always have to be doing something.

(46:35):
So my girlfriend and I are sittinghere trying to figure out all these
things to keep me busy while I'msitting in a bed for four weeks.
Yeah, good luck with that.Yeah that, Yeah, that's gonna be
tough. I can imagine though thatyou can spend lots of time on Facebook
chatting in our Latter Day Lesbian Podcastdiscussion group about how you're doing. People

(47:00):
are going to be wanting to checkin on you and everything like that.
What do you think, like,when are you going to get to see
it? When do you get tolook at your penis. That's a weird
question, but I'm just so curiousas soon as you wake up from surgery,
so it's not wrapped up, Yeah, they'll show you. Yeah,
Okay, it's not right, soit'll be I'll be able to see it

(47:22):
right away. And I'm super stokedabout that moment, like I wonder.
Yeah, I was. Actually Iwas talking to our friend Kirsten, and
I told her that I've had severalpeople ask me like, are you sure
this is what you want? AndI'm like, I have wanted a penis
since I was five years old,and I'm going to go to sleep and

(47:44):
I'm going to wake up with one, Like this is this is a dream
come true? Like you know?Yeah, so no, I'm I'm one
hundred percent positive that this is whatI want, right You're not like,
eh, we'll see they I'll returnit. Yeah. So how long how
long post surgery before you can youknow, use your penis if you know

(48:07):
what I mean? Yeah, anywherefrom six weeks to twelve weeks, depending
on how it heals, if there'sany complications that you know, any open
like any seams open that shouldn't open, that kind of stuff. So basically,
once it's all healed and everything,the stitches are gone, then you
can use it. I'm just sorry, I'm so full of questions. Is

(48:30):
there a time, because you know, anytime after a surgery, things kind
of swell and they look kind oflike they got beat down. How long
before I think, I guess thatyour penis will look normal. I guess
that's a bad word to use,but you know what I mean, like
it it's gonna look all So isit gonna yeah? Yeah? They said
the swelling generally can last up tosix months, so okay. And unfortunately

(48:52):
this is not just one surgery,so there's actually three surgeries. This is
just the first one. What yeay, carry on, tell them tell me
more so. The next surgery,which is generally six months to a year
later, is when they put theimplants in the scrotum so you'll get the
testicles, and they do the glandspasty to create the head of the penis

(49:14):
to make it look more realistic,I guess. And then the third surgery,
which is another six months to ayear down the road, they put
in an erectile device. So there'stwo different kinds you can choose from.
I'm going to go with the onethat's inflatable. So what will happen is
they'll remove one of the testicular implants. They put up a bulb in one

(49:36):
of your testicles, and then ithas like two inflatable rods that go through
the penis itself, and you canpump the testicle and it'll actually blow up
the rods so you can get anerection and use it. Gotcha, gotcha,
I've heard about I've heard about thatbefore. Yeah. And then we
also you can get medical tattooing soit looks completely relate. They'll talk to

(49:58):
the veins on, they'll change theskin color so it would pass one if
someone were to see it, likein a locker room. Ah wow,
that's okay, that's cool, becauseI mean, you know, that's that's
probably a concern for people as well. I would think it's like, am
I am I gonna look weird?Right? If so, if I'm in
a locker room or if I'm peeingin the urinalal and someone glances, like

(50:20):
because you don't want you don't wantto continue your life feeling like do I
pass right? Right? Yeah?Like I'm finally to the point now where
I'd never get missgendered like ever,right, But I do worry, you
know, like if I were nakedin a locker room, that would be
a different story obviously. So yeah, you know, like when I go

(50:44):
to the gym or even in public, I still hardly of we'll go into
the bathroom unless it's like an emergency, because I just am extremely uncomfortable going
into a men's restroom. So yeah, I'm hoping that will dissipate as right.
You know, so you plan ondoing all the tattoos and everything.
Yeah, yeah, I plan ondoing That's cool. So I'm looking at

(51:07):
like a three year process from That'swhat I was. I was trying to
do the math in my head,and I suck at that. So it's
it's not again, It's not youdecide one day, I'm a dude,
you go get surgery next week,and then you know, three weeks later,
you're healed up and you're living asa land like this is this is
a big ass process. This isa huge undertaking. Wow, I didn't

(51:29):
I didn't know it was three years. I didn't know the extra surgeries obviously.
Like I'm sure so many people havelearned so much from listening to this
podcast, not just about you,but about the process of you know,
getting the surgery. Sorry, I'mkind of just like in a daze right
now, thinking of like taking itall in, like wow. So then

(51:51):
they do this and then there's thepumped part and then three years and that's
amazing. Yeah, it's definitely aprocess and to see where you came from.
Yeah, yeah, wow. Sorry, I'm almost speechless and that's hard
for me, and I'm just liketaking this all in. It's incredible.

(52:12):
Someone note that on the calendar right, Shelley was speechless. It won't last.
It won't last. Don't worry.So if people who are listening,
who are in the situation that youwere back when we met, back when
you started listening to podcasts, whatkind of advice would you give. Never

(52:32):
put off being yourself to make apartner, family, kids, whatever,
happy, because it doesn't. That'swhat I've learned. It doesn't make them
happy when you're not happy with yourself. When you can't love yourself, you

(52:52):
can't be a good partner, youcan't be a good parent, you can't
be a good child to your parents. Like you know, if you hate
who you are are, you can'tlove anyone. Else, So it actually
was more damaging for me to keepWhen I thought I was doing it to
make them happy, it actually madeeveryone more miserable. So it's better to

(53:15):
just accept who you are and liveyour truth, and if people are meant
to be in your life, theywill deal with it and they will come
around. So speaking of coming around, how's your family dealing with the fact
that you're having surgery? Do theyall know? Is it? They are
actually good? Now? Wow?They all know. We actually talked about
it at Christmas and for my birthdaythis last year, my mom gave me

(53:39):
a card that said, son,today's your day. I hung it on
the wall in my bedroom because thatwas the first time she called me her
son. Wow. So yeah,so my family is they're all awesome now
they've come Yeah, that is amazing. People people change, they do not
everyone, they don't, but givegive them a chance. By you being

(54:01):
yourself, that gives them a chanceto actually kind of like rise to the
occasion and love more purely and moredeeply, you know, instead of I
feel like when you're pretending to besomeone you're not to try to make them
happy, they're not actually loving you. They're loving who they want you to

(54:21):
be, which to be is kindof fake ish, it's very it has
its limits well, And one thingI see a lot, especially in the
church, is that people think theycan't cut off their family. Like,
it's not okay to cut off yourfamily. It is absolutely okay to take
a step back from people who hurtyou and say things that you know,
if they refuse to respect who youare as a person and respect your truth,

(54:45):
it is perfectly fine for you totake a step back and say,
like, you know what, Idon't need to have you in my life
if you can't respect who I am. Absolutely like, you do not have
to stand there and be abused bypeople, No, because they're your family,
it's not required. Well, andwhen you stand there and accept the
abuse, there's really no need forthem to change because it's exactly But when

(55:08):
you set a boundary, then itputs the ball. Well, first of
all, you've protected yourself, andthen it puts the ball in their court
where they have to decide am Ireally going to love my child or am
I going to say well whatever thenand a lot of parents are really going
to love their child. They reallyare, Like your parents have come around,

(55:29):
my parents came around. My familycame around. Not everyone's parents and
family will I'm not saying that everyone. This is all you know, kumba
yaf for everyone now, but dowhat's best for you and let people make
the decisions if they're going to trulylove you, and they just might you
know. Yep. Yeah. Howare your kids with everything? They're good,

(55:52):
They're good. My daughter actually callsme her dad now wow, but
she doesn't have a relationship with herbiofather, so that's kind of you know.
And she did it because it actuallystarted because she was babysitting this little
girl who was eight, and Ivideo chat with my grandbabies every day because
they're four and two and they're justso I video chat with them every day.

(56:12):
And the little girl asked, mydaughter, who are you talking to?
And my daughter was trying to stopfor a second because she realized,
you know, this guy with abeard deep boys talking to, you know,
and she's like, oh, it'smy dad. So that just kind
of and then it just stuck.So cool. And Katie, the four
year old, is very obsessed withwhat genitals people have right now because she's

(56:34):
ata ache, you know, Soshe asked her dad if I she's like,
does Lola have a penis like daddyor vagina like mommy? And her
dad was like, Lola has apenis like daddy, which I was very
grateful for because he is very LDSas well. So but you know,
they were like, we don't wantto confuse her, and you're a boy.
That's all she sees. So youknow, good good. So they've

(56:59):
all been amazing mysef. It's beenamazing from the get go. You know,
both my kids are just awesome.So that was never a problem.
That's great. I love that.I love that. Well. Is there
anything you want to add? Bythe way, I will be having you
on again post surgery so we cantalk about it because everyone's going to know
how did it go? Send pictures? I'm just kidding. I'd probably get

(57:23):
blocked from Facebook inappropriate content, Yeahfor sure. Yeah. Is there any
questions that that's right? Yes?Let me let me pull up this question
really quickly. Have a question forus and about what kind of thoughts he
had and what research he did beforehe chose a surgeon and a method for
surgery relevant for both top and bottom. I wish all the best for next

(57:45):
week and It's great to see onsocial media how happy he is with his
transition and new body. Lots oflove from Denmark. So you got some
Denmark fans. Yeah, how didyou try to choose your surgeon? Let's
let's answer that one. Yeah.Yeah, So I had two different surgeons
that I was debating between, whichis OHSU that's the medical training hospital here

(58:07):
in Oregon, and the Bunk Clinic, which is the group I ended up
going with. They're down in California. The reason I chose the Bunk Clinic
is because they have a one percentcomplication rate for foloplast They've been doing only
folloplasty surgeries for ten years, sothis is what they specialize in. Their
team of surgeons specializes in it,and one percent complication rate for this type

(58:28):
of surgery is phenomenal. You know, generally you hear of much higher complication
rates. Plus, I met bothdoctor Watt and doctor Chen, who are
my two surgeons. They both haveawesome bedside manner. They're just incredibly the
way they talk to you. Theydo not talk to you like you're stupid.
They don't talk to you like theyhave to explain everything. It's what

(58:51):
do you want to know, okay, do you want to see photos of
that? You know, like theymake sure you know all the risks of
course going in. But I neverfelt stupid to them, like they respected
what I wanted. They said,we can definitely do that, you know,
and they'll be upfront with you ifthey can't do it for whatever reason.
So I just like I liked theirbedside manner. I talked to a

(59:12):
couple other surgeons where I just didn'treally like how they talked to me,
Like, you know, I've donea lot of research, so I was
like, I don't need you totell me what I need for my body,
Like I know what I need formy body, I need you to
tell me if you can work withthat or not. That's kind of how
I went into it. Got it, So got it? That's great.
So just meeting the doctors and knowingtheir their stats as far as there being

(59:35):
any issues after the surgery, that'scool. So that just you just felt
comfortable, like go with your gutright, Yes, that's yeah. And
I'm on a bottom surgery board onFacebook, so you can see how people's
experiences were with different surgeons, andthat really helped as well, you know,
because everyone who had surgery with thisparticular group was always happy with how

(59:57):
it went. The bedside manner,they office staff, the billing like everything.
It was smooth, whereas other surgeonsyou need to read horror stories and
it's like, you know, Ihad this complication and they wouldn't return my
calls, you know, like thatkind of stuff. I don't want that.
That's not something you want to hearwhen you have a surgery that involves
genitals. No, no, yeah, you know, especially if you're in

(01:00:21):
another state right where it's like youcan't just go to your family doctor,
you know, like and you can'tgo to any old r when you've had
gender confirmation surgery and be like,I'm having this complication because they have they
might not have any clue. Well, right, they have doctors there.
Well, they will try and putcatheters where they shouldn't. They have doctors
you know that will think that becauseyour trans you botched your own body.

(01:00:44):
So you can just deal with it, like you know. So, yeah,
it's definitely important to do your researchinto how they respond to different things.
Oh, this has been a greatinterview. I still have ten million
questions, but I'm going to savethose until I get you back on again
after the surgery. Anyone who hasquestions or comments or whatever, feel free

(01:01:09):
to send in an email. Iwill put the email with the show notes,
and gosh, we just wish youthe best. I know you're gonna
sail through this. You've been throughso much. And to see you just
happy and excited in just plowing ahead, I fucking love it. I love

(01:01:30):
you. I just am just inawe. You're amazing. Gosh, thanks
for coming on. Oh thanks forhaving me. Course, you know,
I enjoy I've enjoyed the podcast fromthe beginning. I think that you have
done amazing things for, you know, all the Mormons out there that we're
trying to figure out how to deconstructthe religious upbringing and how to deal with

(01:01:51):
dating for the first time and allthat fun stuff that you know, we
kind of missed out. I suredid growing up. So yeah, so
it's definitely this podcast has helped alot of people. And I've seen the
letters that pour in, you know, when they had the letter episodes,
and listening to all the people thatyou changed lives for, and I thought,
yeah, I'm definitely down to bea part of that. So I

(01:02:12):
can help someone then yay, thankyou. I appreciate that. All right,
I guess this is time for meto wrap it up and try to
remember again how to wrap it up. Say thank you Dan for leaving it
in Dan and Extension Audio. Heis my badass editor in chief, actually
the only editor. I don't doediting because I got I got seven kids

(01:02:32):
in like twelve jobs, so Idon't have the time. Again, thank
you Austin for coming on and Iwill be recording more episodes soon. Also,
always remember steer clear of cults becausethey are no joke. Talk you
later. Hi. Everyone,