August 29, 2021 • 27 mins
Laurie Hood interviews Ellie Phipps Price, president of the American Wild Horse Campaign, at her Montgomery Creek Ranch in Northern California where they discuss what's wrong with, and what can be fixed, with the way wild Mustangs are unfairly treated, at taxpayers' expense.
** LEARN MORE **
Our combined work depends upon your donations and support to keep pushing forward and making real change in animals' lives. We encourage you to learn more about the "differences" our guests are bringing to the foreground for animals of all kinds. Links below.
AMERICAN WILD HORSE CAMPAIGN: https://americanwildhorsecampaign.org/
MONTGOMERY CREEK RANCH: https://www.montgomerycreekranch.org/
LAURIE HOOD & ALAQUA: https://alaqua.org/
⭐ SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
Stay up-to-date on new content and episodes!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvun4-AscI5YFWo8BrHCE4g
ABOUT LAURIE HOOD'S DIFFERENCE MAKERS
Our podcast series celebrates the work of animal advocates from around the globe who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and safety. These "difference makers" are doing extraordinary things to help all types of animals protect their overall welfare. In each episode, Laurie and her guests exchange larger-than-life tales of triumphs and setbacks and discuss how they got started advocating for animals, all the while inspiring others to join their movement.
It is a must-watch for all animal lovers and a rallying cry to help create much-needed and lasting change in our society. Whether you watch or listen to the podcasts, our hope is that you will be entertained, informed, inspired, and encouraged to get involved—in your own community or across the globe.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laurie Hood (00:02):
So easy for the public to just stay removed
because they don't get to seethem.
Ellie Phipps Price (00:07):
1000s of horses are going through this
program, but some of them areending up on their way to
slaughter. We're not just savingthese few horses that we can
pull from the kill pen, we canalso reach out and put some
pressure on the Bureau of LandManagement to change this
program.
(00:28):
This is the horse that helpedmake America let's fought in
wars with us and help settleAmerica. This horse now is being
thrown under the bus. And Ithought maybe there was
something I could do.
Laurie Hood (00:45):
We're here in Sonoma, California with Ellie
Phipps price. La thank you forbeing with us today.
Ellie Phipps Price (00:51):
Thanks for having me, Laurie.
Laurie Hood (00:53):
So Ellie, I think you're one of the most
determined women I've ever metin my life. You are such a hero
for horses. Is it somethingthat's always been your passion?
Unknown (01:03):
Coming from you? That means a lot. Thanks, Lori. Yeah,
horses have always been apassion for me. I've always
loved horses. I spentactuallyspent some of my growing up
years on a cattle ranch inColorado. And then I lived in
Southern California, and I neverhad a horse of my own. And
that's how probably why I endedup with quite a lot of wild
horses right now that I'verescued because I just didn't
(01:23):
get it out of my system earlyenough.
Laurie Hood (01:26):
So, we met the very first wild Mustang that you
rescued. Can you tell us aboutthat?
Ellie Phipps Price (01:31):
So that was Dunston, the first Mustang that
I ever got he I adopted him fromBLM. He's just been wonderful. I
was doing research on the wildhorse issue with the American
wild horse campaign that I'mpresident of, we went to
Colorado to see what was goingon with the wild horses that
were in government holding.
These were horses that had beenrounded up, off the range lost
(01:54):
their freedom and theirfamilies. And I got to the
government holding facility andjust saw a sea of horses, over
3000 horses, and my intentionwas to adopt one, and that horse
is Dunston.
Laurie Hood (02:10):
How did you even find out about the issue with
wild horses, but one of thereasons for me doing this
particular show is because wehave so many followers and so
many fans that absolutely loveanimals. And I am shocked at the
fact that they have no idea whatis happening to these iconic
animals in the West. So how didyou first learn about that?
Unknown (02:32):
Around 2008 2009, I had read an article in Vanity Fair
about you know what washappening with the wild horses.
It was an expert day about thepoor government management and
the plight that these horseswere facing, being removed from
our Western public lands. And Ithought, well, this just this
doesn't seem right at all. Andthen I went on to, my mother had
(02:54):
given me a book Mustang by DianeStillman. And I read that book,
and it just connected the storyof wild horses and how they had
returned to North America andthe 1500s. And they are
protected as far as they have astatus of protection with the
Bureau of Land Management in ourgovernment. And they are managed
(03:16):
by that government agency. Thereis this wild, free roaming Horse
and Burro act of 1971. And thatestablished the protections for
these horses, because beforethat they were just being
rounded up and hauled off toslaughter. The problem right now
is that the management isn'thumane, and it isn't
sustainable. How many are there?
There are 70,000are probablyabout 70,000wild horsesand maybe
(03:38):
10,000 burros in the UnitedStates free and there areover
50,000 that have already beenrounded up and put into
government holding pens.
Laurie Hood (03:51):
So what typically happens to these horses when
they round that up, I mean,what's the process?
Ellie Phipps Price (03:56):
It's really very tragic. It's very difficult
to watch. I've witnessed severalroundups, they government has
contracts with helicoptercontractors and they go fly out
and identify the herds and theygroup them all together and then
they drive them in with thehelicopters into traps when the
(04:16):
horses go into the traps andrealize that they've lost their
freedom and they have no placeto go it's a terrible thing to
see they're terrified. They'reslamming into the fences, they
break bones they try to climbout occasionally when will jump
out, they injured themselves.
After that they break up thefamily bands which are this is
the horses most important thingis their family and their
freedom. And they separate allthe mares and falls into one
(04:40):
group and they separate all thestallions into another and then
they haul them off and trailersto government holding pens where
they process them. I've probablypulled 1500 horses from
slaughter. You know I've pulledthem, place them bought them.
Save them.
Laurie Hood (05:01):
You do it all. I mean, you ride the horses, you
work with the horses, you runthe ranch. I mean, you're like
me, you know we have dirt underour fingernails. And I love
that. We just left the wildmustangs out on the open range
and watching them with theirfamily bands was amazing, you
(05:21):
could tell that the family waseverything to them. So to think
about rounding these horses upand then breaking up, their
family is just heart wrenching.
And I think about all thestallions going in together, and
from the rescues that we do atAlaqua. I mean, but I know what
it is to even have two stallionsin close range to one another at
the refuge. I can't even imaginethem all being in one pin. So
(05:43):
what happens there?
Ellie Phipps Price (05:46):
Well, I mean, the roundup is very
stressful, and then dividing allthe stallions and taking them
away from their their mayors andtheir families, they will fight
with each other. They'redisoriented, and you know, a
stallion down in the wild, willfight to the death for his
family to keep his family and tokeep his mayor's losing that
family losing their freedom isthe worst thing to see. When the
(06:10):
stallions get processed by thegovernment agency that's tasked
with managing wild horses, whichis called the Bureau of Land
Management. When they take thestallions in, they castrate all
of them. All the horses arefreeze branded on their neck,
and the mares that are havenursing foals get to stay with
their foals. And then theybasically never see each other.
(06:33):
Again, they are, are separated.
And eventually some of them areoffered for adoption. And many
of them just go into short termand long term holding, which is
why we have over 50,000 horsesthat were once while that are
now in government holding andwho's paying for all of that?
Oh, yeah, we are the taxpayerspaying for that.
Unknown (06:57):
So that to me is what should make our entire country
want to stop, right? I mean,you're paying for these animals
to not only be taken away fromthe wild and to be processed in
humanely and to ultimately go toslaughter. It's absurd, what has
just happened with the adoptionprogram and the incentive that
(07:20):
they've given because I knowwhere these horses are going to
end up, or the majority of them.
So can you speak to thatThere are three things that are
really not working. One is thesetaking these horses off the
public lands, where they livewild and free, a wild horse in
our care, is costing thetaxpayer over $20,000 per horse.
And over their lifetime, itcould be even more. So that's a
(07:44):
cost. It's inhumane. And thenthe government's response is
well, we're offering some ofthem up for adoption. Well, when
you're removing 10s of 1000s ofhorses, throwing them into
holding and just a few 1000 aregetting adopted every year. That
isn't solving the problem. Theother problem is the government
(08:05):
came up with this new incentiveprogram, this AIP adoption
center program basically hascreated a incentivize people to
send buy horses and send them toslaughter, you adopt a horse for
$125. And then the Bureau ofLand Management pays you $1,000
over a year. And then once youhave title, these people are
(08:26):
just turning the horses over tokill pens to self. I mean, you
look in this horse's eyes, sobeautiful. That is the pipeline
to slaughter a governmentprogram which is encouraging
that pipeline,
Laurie Hood (08:42):
how many is one person allowed to adopt and get
that $1,000.
Ellie Phipps Price (08:45):
So an individual can adopt four horses
from the BLM. So if you have afamily of six people, and this
actually happened, the campaignand identified several families
that are doing this with horsesand burros and their every
member of the family goes downand adopts their maximum four
horses, then they each get paid$1,000. So six people in a
(09:08):
family, four horses each, that's$24,000 that they make in one
year, and then they also sellthe horses back to the
slaughter. So is becoming abusiness for people. It's
terrible.
Laurie Hood (09:21):
It's the cases that I say you know, every day
elbows, you know these horsesend up in the backyard, they end
up being abused and neglected.
And then their faith is thatthey are turned around after a
year and sold to slaughter.
Ellie Phipps Price (09:35):
And we see these horses when they get to
the kill pens, and we'retracking them from the moment
they're offered for adoption.
until a year later, they end upin a kill pen. And that
documentation, which wasrecently covered in the New York
Times article which wasfantastic on the front page of
the New York Times and even withthat kind of media coverage, the
(09:56):
government agency is notchanging their program, they are
going to continue to basicallypromote horse slaughter.
Laurie Hood (10:07):
What can we do?
What can people do that arelistening to this?
Unknown (10:11):
One of the most important things you can do is
find an organization that'sworking on this issue like the
American wild horse campaign.
And there are otherorganizations, and they have
email campaigns, call yoursenator, call the Department of
Interior, reach out and find outhow you can get your voice heard
and say, you don't want to seeAmerica's wild horses adoption
(10:32):
being incentivized with thisprogram.
Laurie Hood (10:37):
I'm sure everyone wants to know the answer to this
question, why? Who is behind allof this who's behind this
movement?
Ellie Phipps Price (10:45):
As far as why the horses are being rounded
out? Right? Well, I think it's,you know, horses are very good
at reproducing. And thegovernment agency that's tasked
with managing them has chosen apath of managing them through
roundup and removal andstockpiling and government
holding. That path is notsustainable and not humane, the
(11:09):
better path would be to managethem with birth control. And
there is a proven way to usebirth control to manage wild
horse populations. The Americanwild horse campaign has a
program in the Virginia range inNevada, where we do manage a
very large group of over 3000horses with birth control. And
(11:30):
we've kept in the last threeyears, almost 2000 foals from
being born by using thisvaccine. But getting back to
your question of why is thishappening to the horses, it's
really competition for grazing.
So right now wild horses are onWestern public lands. And some
they share that those grazinglands with privately owned
(11:50):
cattle. And those ranchers haveleases. And they have their
cattle out there in a also agovernment subsidized program
that taxpayers are also payingfor by the way. And the
competition for grazing, you mayhave 100,000 acres and you might
have 500, head of cow or sheepout there. And you might have
(12:13):
100 horses, but it's actuallymore like you'd have 50 horses
if you had 1000 cows, becausethe numbers are so skewed
towards livestock, wildlife andwild horses do not get their
fair share on our Western publiclands. And the cattle ranchers
are very powerful. They are havea lot of money, right? They have
(12:36):
a lot of money. They have a lotof influence in Washington. And
there's also a feeling I think,with the public that wild horses
are beautiful, and they're outthere running free, but they
don't realize where they are,how they live, the amount of
land that they need. A wildhorse can cover 20 miles 30
(12:56):
miles a day, and their naturalhabitats have all been sectioned
off. And the ranchers arerunning the show.
Unknown (13:07):
I know you took a big step in in trying to save one
particular herd and that was howyou founded my Montgomery Creek
Ranch. Is that right?
Yes, it is. It wasn't my plan tohave a horse sanctuary, which is
really what my Montgomery CreekRanch is. But I hope what we can
do now is show the value ofthese horses at McHenry Creek
(13:28):
Ranch. And the way it startedfor me was I was learning about
the issue. And then someonealerted me that there was an
auction with a large group ofwild horses going into the sale.
And they were all wild. They hadjust been taken off the range in
Nevada. They were not beingmanaged by the government agency
that offers them protection. Andso I went up to get the mayors
(13:52):
and falls. I thought well, atleast I can save those 3040
horses, the mares and foals outof this group of 170. When I got
to Fallon, Nevada, and saw thosehorses. I looked in their eyes,
they were down on the floorwhere they're literally selling
them by the pound and they wouldbring in a group of eight
(14:15):
stallions. And they were soscared and they were running in
a tight little circle in thislittle platform on a scale. And
you could see how much thehorses weighed. But the amount
they weighed was how much thekill buyers which are the people
that are buying the horses forexport for slaughter, they were
looking at the numbers and justcalculating how many pounds of
(14:37):
horseflesh were on the stage atthat moment on the scales. And I
looked at these horses eyes andI just thought, this is not
happening on my watch. I'm goingto just raise my paddle and I'm
going to get between thesehorses and that horrible fate.
And then I'll figure it outlater. I couldn't let them go.
Laurie Hood (14:58):
That's amazing. It true He is and I got to meet
some of those horses. And I gotto see your operation there and
you are a sanctuary, youdescribed it to me as some of
the horses just are not able tofit the adoption criteria. So
those go into the herd, right.
And those are the ones that weresanctuary. And they get to live
out their lives as much as wildhorse could in that situation,
(15:20):
which is, what 2000 acres.
Ellie Phipps Price (15:24):
Yeah, it's about 2000 acres. And the
original group of 170 horsesthat we bought on that one day
in Nevada, that group is we gota lot of them adopted. And now
we have probably 100 of thosehorses still. And then we've
picked up different bands, youknow, tried to keep families
together, found horses that werein the slaughter pipeline. And
(15:47):
we've tried to tell the story ofwhere these horses come from,
how they come to be at risk. Andalso we've tried to identify the
younger horses as adoptable, andwe've developed a training
program, and we're gettingprobably 15 horses a year
adopted, which isn't a lot. Butthose every horse that we get
(16:11):
adopted to somebody is anambassador for all wild horses
that have lost their familiesand their freedom.
Laurie Hood (16:17):
Some of them just may not ever be adoptable where
they can be written and they arecomfortable, their fear is so
great that they're just not evergoing to get there. And I love
that you give them an option anda love that they're able to go
in the herd, if that's what ittakes to keep them alive.
Ellie Phipps Price (16:36):
So Laurie, thank you for noticing that. And
I'm so glad that that resonatedfor you about the choice that
we're giving our horses in a waywe're giving them a voice when
we rescue a horse. And even ifit looks like a really great
training prospect, young, goodlooking good minded everything.
Probably one in six horses thatgo through our training program
(16:59):
do not make it to our adoptionprogram, then they have a place
in our big herd of forever wildhorses on the ranch. And some of
them have been turned intopasture horses, you know, they
can be a companion horse tosomebody who just needs a horse
in their pasture. The Americanpeople even though not everyone
even knows that wild horsesexist. But the people that know
(17:20):
that they're out there, valuethem wild and free. They want to
see them there for futuregenerations.
Laurie Hood (17:28):
So it's been on my bucket list my entire life to
see wild horses running free.
And I was able to do thatearlier in Oregon this week. And
then I was able to go to youramazing ranch and and see them
running free in these largeherds. But what struck me
immediately was the dust and thedryness. And I was so my heart
(17:49):
was heavy to hear what washappening on your ranch. I mean,
you're running out of water.
Ellie Phipps Price (17:57):
We are this drought is been very, very hard
for us. As for the whole westernUnited States right now is so
affected by it. California is inan extreme drought the entire
state. We're maintaining But ata certain point, probably later
this summer, we will run out ofwater. This is just the worst
year we've ever had. And it doesit keeps us up at night
(18:19):
basically had two years ofdrought. And it's it's a very
scary thing. I mean to thinkthat there's 240 horses out
there that that that's a lot ofwater. It's a lot of
Laurie Hood (18:33):
they drink gallons a day. I don't think I forget is
it eight gallons a day that theaverage horse drinks I knew this
Yes, at one point.
Ellie Phipps Price (18:40):
Yeah, it's a lot. So it may be even lower
than that. Yeah, it's a bigconcern for us. Long term, it's
a concern. But just even in thisimmediate moment, we're hoping
that the water we have is goingto hold a little longer, and
then the rains will come andFingers crossed. But we're
coming up with Plan B and Plan Cand everything else because we
(19:00):
will take care of these horsesno matter what.
Laurie Hood (19:03):
As if this work is not hard enough. I mean, I can't
even imagine the weight that youhave on your shoulders that and
you have to fundraise to pay forit all. I mean, no.
Ellie Phipps Price (19:12):
Yeah, we do I and we want to always, you
know you deal with hurricanes. Ijust wish you could send some of
that water our way right? I knowhe was we could share we have to
create a pipeline betweenFlorida and California because
we could definitely use thewater here. My Camry Creek
Ranch. We want to be asustainable place, an
organization and a place thatcan protect wild horses that
(19:35):
have lost their place that havebeen saved from slaughter. We
want to be there for horsesgoing forward forever.
Laurie Hood (19:41):
I know it's always a challenge to get the word out
and get it to people who may notbe aware of the situation. What
what methods have you used forthat?
Unknown (19:51):
Oh, well. Let's see.
I've tried everything.
Everything I can do. I havedeveloped some friendships with
people in Washington, DC See onboth sides of the aisle. It's
been a real learning experiencefor me to go in and meet with
senators and Congress,congressional representatives
and their staffs, and to educatethem. And actually, a lot of
(20:14):
them know a lot about thisissue. And they have
constituents that care about it.
And so that's everywhere I go, Italk about it and put bumper
stickers on my car. I mean,every level takes all of it, it
does take all of it, I have ahorseshoe on my wine label, just
another talking point and a wayto get into the issue named my
first Mustang after my winery.
(20:38):
And the thing that has meant themost to me has been being on the
board of the American wild horsecampaign. The organization has
been very strong for 10 yearsworking on this issue. And we
have raised awareness, we haveover 2 million followers. And we
have an very motivated base thatwhen something happens on the
(20:59):
range, we can reach out to oursupporters at American wild
horse campaign and we canactivate them to get 36,000
emails to a senator or get50,000 people to sign petitions
to stop roundups to reformmanagement, anything that we're
(21:19):
trying to do to raise awareness.
It's an amazingly strongcampaign. I hope everyone will
check it out.
Laurie Hood (21:24):
What else do you do?
Ellie Phipps Price (21:26):
I've gone and met with people in the BLM
field offices. I've lobbied inWashington, DC, I've, I've
gotten certified to Dart, thePCP vaccine. Wow. So I have a
dark gun. I've darted horses. Imean, taking care of the
sanctuary is one of the most dayto day things that I do, staying
(21:47):
on top of that training program,keeping some of those horses
here in Sonoma so that we canput extra time into some of
those horses, learning abouthorse training, learning about a
veterinary care, it's just aboutbuilding the family of people
that care about animals, youwould think horse, people would
care about wild horses justnaturally. And many of the
(22:10):
people that are attracted tothis issue, they really just
love animals. They don't evenknow that much about horses, but
they see they see something theysee a gentle spirit, they see
something that is in horses, Ilive in Seoul, it's a living. So
yeah, it's a powerful thing. Andgetting horses are used for
(22:32):
therapy. Right now I'm meetingwith people to talk about
building an f1 therapy program,equity assisted therapy for
people with disabilities. I'velooked into wounded warriors,
several of our employees arevets. And I think we just
attract people that care aboutthese animals and the animals
(22:54):
have something to give back tothem to
Laurie Hood (22:56):
something that really strikes me as we have
field trips that come out or,you know, families that come out
to the refuge and, and they'rethere to adopt a dog or a cat or
maybe just a stroll around. Andsometimes we get drawings back
from these kids, and they don'tdraw the dog or the cat, they
draw the horse, you know, andit's just it gives me chills,
(23:18):
because I think about that.
Sometimes it's the first timethey've ever met a horse or have
seen a horse. So part of ourmission is to try to bring those
people out for whatever reasonthey're visiting for and
introduce them to these amazingcreatures. And hopefully, we're
inspiring future advocates bydoing this.
Ellie Phipps Price (23:39):
And in the end, that's what's going to save
horses.
Laurie Hood (23:41):
I agree. Yeah,
Ellie Phipps Price (23:42):
I know it gets can be a little consuming
to care for animals, especiallywhen calls are coming in. I
think for you all the time.
There's always an animal thatneeds you. And I feel that way
too with the horses. We have somany calls. Every week we hear
about so many animals that areslipping through the cracks.
Laurie Hood (24:01):
Everyone says to me, You know what? You can't
save them all? Well, no, but youcan try to prevent them from
getting there. And that's whatthat's what the other side of
your work is doing. And I mean,you're doing an amazing job, and
I'm so grateful for everythingthat you do for the wild horses.
So thank you,
Ellie Phipps Price (24:20):
Laurie, thank you. Thank you so much for
shining a light on this
Laurie Hood (24:29):
favorite Mustang color. Done. Animal passion
hero,
Ellie Phipps Price (24:34):
Jane Goodall. Yeah, Laurie head. And
Suzanne Roy, Executive Directorof American wild horse campaign
favorite type of red and whitewine, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir,
easy,
Unknown (24:47):
favorite name for a horse? Dunston of course.
funniest moment where the horse,we
Ellie Phipps Price (24:53):
took the kids to Iceland, and we went
horseback riding on theIcelandic ponies and we were
told they were very safe andeasy to ride and wonderful. And
one of them swooped in both thekids fell off within five
seconds of each other. And Ijust thought, well, there goes
that. So it was kind of funnysince nobody got hurt.
Laurie Hood (25:11):
Favorite movie, you haven't co written or produced
the Black Stallion. Okay. Haveyou ever thought, Oh, my animal
passion has gone too far? Oh,yes. Yeah, short answer. Yes,
yes. Yeah, I think we all haveYeah. So Ellie, tell us how
people can donate to yourorganization or how they find
(25:31):
you.
Unknown (25:32):
So, Montgomery Creek ranch.org is probably the best
way. We have a website, where wedescribe everything. We're doing
our training program, ouradvocacy work, our affiliation
with the American wild horsecampaign. And we basically have
two events a year. Weoccasionally have tours, we do
(25:53):
photography workshops, we bringin clinicians, we try to find
ways that we can connect theirstories with people through
adoption, through events througheducation. And we are deeply
grateful for any support,especially in this really
challenging year. When we aregoing we're buying hay, we're
(26:14):
feeding one and a half tons ofhay a day. And we will soon be
probably shipping in water andtrucks. So it's going to be a
really, really challenging year.
We're going to be reaching out alot to just to try to keep it
all together.
Laurie Hood (26:30):
Well I hope everyone listening well go to
your website, make a donation,you made a comment to me that
really struck me I know how muchit is to keep a horse and you
said it's an average of $20,000.
Yeah, for the lifetime of ahorse and you have a lot of
horses so you have a lot ofhorses. For
Unknown (26:47):
more information about the animal passion series, and
host Laurie hood, visitaliquam.org. For more
information about Ellie Phippsprice, visit montgomery Creek
ranch.org and don't forget tocheck out the animal passion
podcast YouTube channel. Thanksfor listening.
So easy for the public to just stay removed
because they don't get to seethem.
Ellie Phipps Price (00:07):
1000s of horses are going through this
program, but some of them areending up on their way to
slaughter. We're not just savingthese few horses that we can
pull from the kill pen, we canalso reach out and put some
pressure on the Bureau of LandManagement to change this
program.
(00:28):
This is the horse that helpedmake America let's fought in
wars with us and help settleAmerica. This horse now is being
thrown under the bus. And Ithought maybe there was
something I could do.
Laurie Hood (00:45):
We're here in Sonoma, California with Ellie
Phipps price. La thank you forbeing with us today.
Ellie Phipps Price (00:51):
Thanks for having me, Laurie.
Laurie Hood (00:53):
So Ellie, I think you're one of the most
determined women I've ever metin my life. You are such a hero
for horses. Is it somethingthat's always been your passion?
Unknown (01:03):
Coming from you? That means a lot. Thanks, Lori. Yeah,
horses have always been apassion for me. I've always
loved horses. I spentactuallyspent some of my growing up
years on a cattle ranch inColorado. And then I lived in
Southern California, and I neverhad a horse of my own. And
that's how probably why I endedup with quite a lot of wild
horses right now that I'verescued because I just didn't
(01:23):
get it out of my system earlyenough.
Laurie Hood (01:26):
So, we met the very first wild Mustang that you
rescued. Can you tell us aboutthat?
Ellie Phipps Price (01:31):
So that was Dunston, the first Mustang that
I ever got he I adopted him fromBLM. He's just been wonderful. I
was doing research on the wildhorse issue with the American
wild horse campaign that I'mpresident of, we went to
Colorado to see what was goingon with the wild horses that
were in government holding.
These were horses that had beenrounded up, off the range lost
(01:54):
their freedom and theirfamilies. And I got to the
government holding facility andjust saw a sea of horses, over
3000 horses, and my intentionwas to adopt one, and that horse
is Dunston.
Laurie Hood (02:10):
How did you even find out about the issue with
wild horses, but one of thereasons for me doing this
particular show is because wehave so many followers and so
many fans that absolutely loveanimals. And I am shocked at the
fact that they have no idea whatis happening to these iconic
animals in the West. So how didyou first learn about that?
Unknown (02:32):
Around 2008 2009, I had read an article in Vanity Fair
about you know what washappening with the wild horses.
It was an expert day about thepoor government management and
the plight that these horseswere facing, being removed from
our Western public lands. And Ithought, well, this just this
doesn't seem right at all. Andthen I went on to, my mother had
(02:54):
given me a book Mustang by DianeStillman. And I read that book,
and it just connected the storyof wild horses and how they had
returned to North America andthe 1500s. And they are
protected as far as they have astatus of protection with the
Bureau of Land Management in ourgovernment. And they are managed
(03:16):
by that government agency. Thereis this wild, free roaming Horse
and Burro act of 1971. And thatestablished the protections for
these horses, because beforethat they were just being
rounded up and hauled off toslaughter. The problem right now
is that the management isn'thumane, and it isn't
sustainable. How many are there?
There are 70,000are probablyabout 70,000wild horsesand maybe
(03:38):
10,000 burros in the UnitedStates free and there areover
50,000 that have already beenrounded up and put into
government holding pens.
Laurie Hood (03:51):
So what typically happens to these horses when
they round that up, I mean,what's the process?
Ellie Phipps Price (03:56):
It's really very tragic. It's very difficult
to watch. I've witnessed severalroundups, they government has
contracts with helicoptercontractors and they go fly out
and identify the herds and theygroup them all together and then
they drive them in with thehelicopters into traps when the
(04:16):
horses go into the traps andrealize that they've lost their
freedom and they have no placeto go it's a terrible thing to
see they're terrified. They'reslamming into the fences, they
break bones they try to climbout occasionally when will jump
out, they injured themselves.
After that they break up thefamily bands which are this is
the horses most important thingis their family and their
freedom. And they separate allthe mares and falls into one
(04:40):
group and they separate all thestallions into another and then
they haul them off and trailersto government holding pens where
they process them. I've probablypulled 1500 horses from
slaughter. You know I've pulledthem, place them bought them.
Save them.
Laurie Hood (05:01):
You do it all. I mean, you ride the horses, you
work with the horses, you runthe ranch. I mean, you're like
me, you know we have dirt underour fingernails. And I love
that. We just left the wildmustangs out on the open range
and watching them with theirfamily bands was amazing, you
(05:21):
could tell that the family waseverything to them. So to think
about rounding these horses upand then breaking up, their
family is just heart wrenching.
And I think about all thestallions going in together, and
from the rescues that we do atAlaqua. I mean, but I know what
it is to even have two stallionsin close range to one another at
the refuge. I can't even imaginethem all being in one pin. So
(05:43):
what happens there?
Ellie Phipps Price (05:46):
Well, I mean, the roundup is very
stressful, and then dividing allthe stallions and taking them
away from their their mayors andtheir families, they will fight
with each other. They'redisoriented, and you know, a
stallion down in the wild, willfight to the death for his
family to keep his family and tokeep his mayor's losing that
family losing their freedom isthe worst thing to see. When the
(06:10):
stallions get processed by thegovernment agency that's tasked
with managing wild horses, whichis called the Bureau of Land
Management. When they take thestallions in, they castrate all
of them. All the horses arefreeze branded on their neck,
and the mares that are havenursing foals get to stay with
their foals. And then theybasically never see each other.
(06:33):
Again, they are, are separated.
And eventually some of them areoffered for adoption. And many
of them just go into short termand long term holding, which is
why we have over 50,000 horsesthat were once while that are
now in government holding andwho's paying for all of that?
Oh, yeah, we are the taxpayerspaying for that.
Unknown (06:57):
So that to me is what should make our entire country
want to stop, right? I mean,you're paying for these animals
to not only be taken away fromthe wild and to be processed in
humanely and to ultimately go toslaughter. It's absurd, what has
just happened with the adoptionprogram and the incentive that
(07:20):
they've given because I knowwhere these horses are going to
end up, or the majority of them.
So can you speak to thatThere are three things that are
really not working. One is thesetaking these horses off the
public lands, where they livewild and free, a wild horse in
our care, is costing thetaxpayer over $20,000 per horse.
And over their lifetime, itcould be even more. So that's a
(07:44):
cost. It's inhumane. And thenthe government's response is
well, we're offering some ofthem up for adoption. Well, when
you're removing 10s of 1000s ofhorses, throwing them into
holding and just a few 1000 aregetting adopted every year. That
isn't solving the problem. Theother problem is the government
(08:05):
came up with this new incentiveprogram, this AIP adoption
center program basically hascreated a incentivize people to
send buy horses and send them toslaughter, you adopt a horse for
$125. And then the Bureau ofLand Management pays you $1,000
over a year. And then once youhave title, these people are
(08:26):
just turning the horses over tokill pens to self. I mean, you
look in this horse's eyes, sobeautiful. That is the pipeline
to slaughter a governmentprogram which is encouraging
that pipeline,
Laurie Hood (08:42):
how many is one person allowed to adopt and get
that $1,000.
Ellie Phipps Price (08:45):
So an individual can adopt four horses
from the BLM. So if you have afamily of six people, and this
actually happened, the campaignand identified several families
that are doing this with horsesand burros and their every
member of the family goes downand adopts their maximum four
horses, then they each get paid$1,000. So six people in a
(09:08):
family, four horses each, that's$24,000 that they make in one
year, and then they also sellthe horses back to the
slaughter. So is becoming abusiness for people. It's
terrible.
Laurie Hood (09:21):
It's the cases that I say you know, every day
elbows, you know these horsesend up in the backyard, they end
up being abused and neglected.
And then their faith is thatthey are turned around after a
year and sold to slaughter.
Ellie Phipps Price (09:35):
And we see these horses when they get to
the kill pens, and we'retracking them from the moment
they're offered for adoption.
until a year later, they end upin a kill pen. And that
documentation, which wasrecently covered in the New York
Times article which wasfantastic on the front page of
the New York Times and even withthat kind of media coverage, the
(09:56):
government agency is notchanging their program, they are
going to continue to basicallypromote horse slaughter.
Laurie Hood (10:07):
What can we do?
What can people do that arelistening to this?
Unknown (10:11):
One of the most important things you can do is
find an organization that'sworking on this issue like the
American wild horse campaign.
And there are otherorganizations, and they have
email campaigns, call yoursenator, call the Department of
Interior, reach out and find outhow you can get your voice heard
and say, you don't want to seeAmerica's wild horses adoption
(10:32):
being incentivized with thisprogram.
Laurie Hood (10:37):
I'm sure everyone wants to know the answer to this
question, why? Who is behind allof this who's behind this
movement?
Ellie Phipps Price (10:45):
As far as why the horses are being rounded
out? Right? Well, I think it's,you know, horses are very good
at reproducing. And thegovernment agency that's tasked
with managing them has chosen apath of managing them through
roundup and removal andstockpiling and government
holding. That path is notsustainable and not humane, the
(11:09):
better path would be to managethem with birth control. And
there is a proven way to usebirth control to manage wild
horse populations. The Americanwild horse campaign has a
program in the Virginia range inNevada, where we do manage a
very large group of over 3000horses with birth control. And
(11:30):
we've kept in the last threeyears, almost 2000 foals from
being born by using thisvaccine. But getting back to
your question of why is thishappening to the horses, it's
really competition for grazing.
So right now wild horses are onWestern public lands. And some
they share that those grazinglands with privately owned
(11:50):
cattle. And those ranchers haveleases. And they have their
cattle out there in a also agovernment subsidized program
that taxpayers are also payingfor by the way. And the
competition for grazing, you mayhave 100,000 acres and you might
have 500, head of cow or sheepout there. And you might have
(12:13):
100 horses, but it's actuallymore like you'd have 50 horses
if you had 1000 cows, becausethe numbers are so skewed
towards livestock, wildlife andwild horses do not get their
fair share on our Western publiclands. And the cattle ranchers
are very powerful. They are havea lot of money, right? They have
(12:36):
a lot of money. They have a lotof influence in Washington. And
there's also a feeling I think,with the public that wild horses
are beautiful, and they're outthere running free, but they
don't realize where they are,how they live, the amount of
land that they need. A wildhorse can cover 20 miles 30
(12:56):
miles a day, and their naturalhabitats have all been sectioned
off. And the ranchers arerunning the show.
Unknown (13:07):
I know you took a big step in in trying to save one
particular herd and that was howyou founded my Montgomery Creek
Ranch. Is that right?
Yes, it is. It wasn't my plan tohave a horse sanctuary, which is
really what my Montgomery CreekRanch is. But I hope what we can
do now is show the value ofthese horses at McHenry Creek
(13:28):
Ranch. And the way it startedfor me was I was learning about
the issue. And then someonealerted me that there was an
auction with a large group ofwild horses going into the sale.
And they were all wild. They hadjust been taken off the range in
Nevada. They were not beingmanaged by the government agency
that offers them protection. Andso I went up to get the mayors
(13:52):
and falls. I thought well, atleast I can save those 3040
horses, the mares and foals outof this group of 170. When I got
to Fallon, Nevada, and saw thosehorses. I looked in their eyes,
they were down on the floorwhere they're literally selling
them by the pound and they wouldbring in a group of eight
(14:15):
stallions. And they were soscared and they were running in
a tight little circle in thislittle platform on a scale. And
you could see how much thehorses weighed. But the amount
they weighed was how much thekill buyers which are the people
that are buying the horses forexport for slaughter, they were
looking at the numbers and justcalculating how many pounds of
(14:37):
horseflesh were on the stage atthat moment on the scales. And I
looked at these horses eyes andI just thought, this is not
happening on my watch. I'm goingto just raise my paddle and I'm
going to get between thesehorses and that horrible fate.
And then I'll figure it outlater. I couldn't let them go.
Laurie Hood (14:58):
That's amazing. It true He is and I got to meet
some of those horses. And I gotto see your operation there and
you are a sanctuary, youdescribed it to me as some of
the horses just are not able tofit the adoption criteria. So
those go into the herd, right.
And those are the ones that weresanctuary. And they get to live
out their lives as much as wildhorse could in that situation,
(15:20):
which is, what 2000 acres.
Ellie Phipps Price (15:24):
Yeah, it's about 2000 acres. And the
original group of 170 horsesthat we bought on that one day
in Nevada, that group is we gota lot of them adopted. And now
we have probably 100 of thosehorses still. And then we've
picked up different bands, youknow, tried to keep families
together, found horses that werein the slaughter pipeline. And
(15:47):
we've tried to tell the story ofwhere these horses come from,
how they come to be at risk. Andalso we've tried to identify the
younger horses as adoptable, andwe've developed a training
program, and we're gettingprobably 15 horses a year
adopted, which isn't a lot. Butthose every horse that we get
(16:11):
adopted to somebody is anambassador for all wild horses
that have lost their familiesand their freedom.
Laurie Hood (16:17):
Some of them just may not ever be adoptable where
they can be written and they arecomfortable, their fear is so
great that they're just not evergoing to get there. And I love
that you give them an option anda love that they're able to go
in the herd, if that's what ittakes to keep them alive.
Ellie Phipps Price (16:36):
So Laurie, thank you for noticing that. And
I'm so glad that that resonatedfor you about the choice that
we're giving our horses in a waywe're giving them a voice when
we rescue a horse. And even ifit looks like a really great
training prospect, young, goodlooking good minded everything.
Probably one in six horses thatgo through our training program
(16:59):
do not make it to our adoptionprogram, then they have a place
in our big herd of forever wildhorses on the ranch. And some of
them have been turned intopasture horses, you know, they
can be a companion horse tosomebody who just needs a horse
in their pasture. The Americanpeople even though not everyone
even knows that wild horsesexist. But the people that know
(17:20):
that they're out there, valuethem wild and free. They want to
see them there for futuregenerations.
Laurie Hood (17:28):
So it's been on my bucket list my entire life to
see wild horses running free.
And I was able to do thatearlier in Oregon this week. And
then I was able to go to youramazing ranch and and see them
running free in these largeherds. But what struck me
immediately was the dust and thedryness. And I was so my heart
(17:49):
was heavy to hear what washappening on your ranch. I mean,
you're running out of water.
Ellie Phipps Price (17:57):
We are this drought is been very, very hard
for us. As for the whole westernUnited States right now is so
affected by it. California is inan extreme drought the entire
state. We're maintaining But ata certain point, probably later
this summer, we will run out ofwater. This is just the worst
year we've ever had. And it doesit keeps us up at night
(18:19):
basically had two years ofdrought. And it's it's a very
scary thing. I mean to thinkthat there's 240 horses out
there that that that's a lot ofwater. It's a lot of
Laurie Hood (18:33):
they drink gallons a day. I don't think I forget is
it eight gallons a day that theaverage horse drinks I knew this
Yes, at one point.
Ellie Phipps Price (18:40):
Yeah, it's a lot. So it may be even lower
than that. Yeah, it's a bigconcern for us. Long term, it's
a concern. But just even in thisimmediate moment, we're hoping
that the water we have is goingto hold a little longer, and
then the rains will come andFingers crossed. But we're
coming up with Plan B and Plan Cand everything else because we
(19:00):
will take care of these horsesno matter what.
Laurie Hood (19:03):
As if this work is not hard enough. I mean, I can't
even imagine the weight that youhave on your shoulders that and
you have to fundraise to pay forit all. I mean, no.
Ellie Phipps Price (19:12):
Yeah, we do I and we want to always, you
know you deal with hurricanes. Ijust wish you could send some of
that water our way right? I knowhe was we could share we have to
create a pipeline betweenFlorida and California because
we could definitely use thewater here. My Camry Creek
Ranch. We want to be asustainable place, an
organization and a place thatcan protect wild horses that
(19:35):
have lost their place that havebeen saved from slaughter. We
want to be there for horsesgoing forward forever.
Laurie Hood (19:41):
I know it's always a challenge to get the word out
and get it to people who may notbe aware of the situation. What
what methods have you used forthat?
Unknown (19:51):
Oh, well. Let's see.
I've tried everything.
Everything I can do. I havedeveloped some friendships with
people in Washington, DC See onboth sides of the aisle. It's
been a real learning experiencefor me to go in and meet with
senators and Congress,congressional representatives
and their staffs, and to educatethem. And actually, a lot of
(20:14):
them know a lot about thisissue. And they have
constituents that care about it.
And so that's everywhere I go, Italk about it and put bumper
stickers on my car. I mean,every level takes all of it, it
does take all of it, I have ahorseshoe on my wine label, just
another talking point and a wayto get into the issue named my
first Mustang after my winery.
(20:38):
And the thing that has meant themost to me has been being on the
board of the American wild horsecampaign. The organization has
been very strong for 10 yearsworking on this issue. And we
have raised awareness, we haveover 2 million followers. And we
have an very motivated base thatwhen something happens on the
(20:59):
range, we can reach out to oursupporters at American wild
horse campaign and we canactivate them to get 36,000
emails to a senator or get50,000 people to sign petitions
to stop roundups to reformmanagement, anything that we're
(21:19):
trying to do to raise awareness.
It's an amazingly strongcampaign. I hope everyone will
check it out.
Laurie Hood (21:24):
What else do you do?
Ellie Phipps Price (21:26):
I've gone and met with people in the BLM
field offices. I've lobbied inWashington, DC, I've, I've
gotten certified to Dart, thePCP vaccine. Wow. So I have a
dark gun. I've darted horses. Imean, taking care of the
sanctuary is one of the most dayto day things that I do, staying
(21:47):
on top of that training program,keeping some of those horses
here in Sonoma so that we canput extra time into some of
those horses, learning abouthorse training, learning about a
veterinary care, it's just aboutbuilding the family of people
that care about animals, youwould think horse, people would
care about wild horses justnaturally. And many of the
(22:10):
people that are attracted tothis issue, they really just
love animals. They don't evenknow that much about horses, but
they see they see something theysee a gentle spirit, they see
something that is in horses, Ilive in Seoul, it's a living. So
yeah, it's a powerful thing. Andgetting horses are used for
(22:32):
therapy. Right now I'm meetingwith people to talk about
building an f1 therapy program,equity assisted therapy for
people with disabilities. I'velooked into wounded warriors,
several of our employees arevets. And I think we just
attract people that care aboutthese animals and the animals
(22:54):
have something to give back tothem to
Laurie Hood (22:56):
something that really strikes me as we have
field trips that come out or,you know, families that come out
to the refuge and, and they'rethere to adopt a dog or a cat or
maybe just a stroll around. Andsometimes we get drawings back
from these kids, and they don'tdraw the dog or the cat, they
draw the horse, you know, andit's just it gives me chills,
(23:18):
because I think about that.
Sometimes it's the first timethey've ever met a horse or have
seen a horse. So part of ourmission is to try to bring those
people out for whatever reasonthey're visiting for and
introduce them to these amazingcreatures. And hopefully, we're
inspiring future advocates bydoing this.
Ellie Phipps Price (23:39):
And in the end, that's what's going to save
horses.
Laurie Hood (23:41):
I agree. Yeah,
Ellie Phipps Price (23:42):
I know it gets can be a little consuming
to care for animals, especiallywhen calls are coming in. I
think for you all the time.
There's always an animal thatneeds you. And I feel that way
too with the horses. We have somany calls. Every week we hear
about so many animals that areslipping through the cracks.
Laurie Hood (24:01):
Everyone says to me, You know what? You can't
save them all? Well, no, but youcan try to prevent them from
getting there. And that's whatthat's what the other side of
your work is doing. And I mean,you're doing an amazing job, and
I'm so grateful for everythingthat you do for the wild horses.
So thank you,
Ellie Phipps Price (24:20):
Laurie, thank you. Thank you so much for
shining a light on this
Laurie Hood (24:29):
favorite Mustang color. Done. Animal passion
hero,
Ellie Phipps Price (24:34):
Jane Goodall. Yeah, Laurie head. And
Suzanne Roy, Executive Directorof American wild horse campaign
favorite type of red and whitewine, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir,
easy,
Unknown (24:47):
favorite name for a horse? Dunston of course.
funniest moment where the horse,we
Ellie Phipps Price (24:53):
took the kids to Iceland, and we went
horseback riding on theIcelandic ponies and we were
told they were very safe andeasy to ride and wonderful. And
one of them swooped in both thekids fell off within five
seconds of each other. And Ijust thought, well, there goes
that. So it was kind of funnysince nobody got hurt.
Laurie Hood (25:11):
Favorite movie, you haven't co written or produced
the Black Stallion. Okay. Haveyou ever thought, Oh, my animal
passion has gone too far? Oh,yes. Yeah, short answer. Yes,
yes. Yeah, I think we all haveYeah. So Ellie, tell us how
people can donate to yourorganization or how they find
(25:31):
you.
Unknown (25:32):
So, Montgomery Creek ranch.org is probably the best
way. We have a website, where wedescribe everything. We're doing
our training program, ouradvocacy work, our affiliation
with the American wild horsecampaign. And we basically have
two events a year. Weoccasionally have tours, we do
(25:53):
photography workshops, we bringin clinicians, we try to find
ways that we can connect theirstories with people through
adoption, through events througheducation. And we are deeply
grateful for any support,especially in this really
challenging year. When we aregoing we're buying hay, we're
(26:14):
feeding one and a half tons ofhay a day. And we will soon be
probably shipping in water andtrucks. So it's going to be a
really, really challenging year.
We're going to be reaching out alot to just to try to keep it
all together.
Laurie Hood (26:30):
Well I hope everyone listening well go to
your website, make a donation,you made a comment to me that
really struck me I know how muchit is to keep a horse and you
said it's an average of $20,000.
Yeah, for the lifetime of ahorse and you have a lot of
horses so you have a lot ofhorses. For
Unknown (26:47):
more information about the animal passion series, and
host Laurie hood, visitaliquam.org. For more
information about Ellie Phippsprice, visit montgomery Creek
ranch.org and don't forget tocheck out the animal passion
podcast YouTube channel. Thanksfor listening.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.