October 23, 2023 • 31 mins
This is Part 5 in our podcast series exploring homelessness in Australia and the legal issues people experience when they are homeless or at risk of homelessness. During this series we will be speaking to people from different services providing support and legal advice to those experiencing homelessness and to people with lived experience of homelessness.
We acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which this episode was made, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay our respects to Elders past and present.
In this 5th episode, Bridget from the Community Legal Education Branch speaks to Rachel, a person with lived experience of homelessness.
We wish to acknowledge and thank Rachel, David and Rebecca who all shared their experiences of homelessness with us. We also thank the Homeless Persons Legal Service, part of the Public Interest Advocacy Centre for putting us in touch with the StreetCare team.
There is useful information in this episode about how community workers can support people who are homeless or at risk of homelessness.
Use the links below to find out more information about what we talked about in this episode.
Homeless Persons’ Legal Service hpls@piac.asn.au
https://piac.asn.au/projects/homelessness/
The Big Issue
Music: Warm Romance Sunset by Bobby Cole
Transcript: https://otter.ai/u/JGulZMp80-HsLCSH5GOpqYBB9xQ?utm_source=copy_url
Please send questions, comments and feedback to cle@legalaid.nsw.gov.au
Disclaimer: This podcast is a general guide to the law. You should not rely on it as legal advice. We recommend that you talk to a lawyer about any particular situation. The information is correct at the time of publishing but it may change. For more information, start with our team at LawAccess NSW via webchat at www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au or on 1300 888 529.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bridget Barker (00:04):
This is a place to call home our podcast series
on homelessness. In this fifthepisode, I speak to Rachel a
person with lived experience ofhomelessness. I thank Rachel and
also Rebecca and David whogenerously shared their
experiences with me for thispodcast. This episode was
(00:27):
recorded on the lands of theGadigal people of the Eora
nation. And I pay my respects totheir elders past and present,
and to any Aboriginal or TorresStrait Islander people listening
to this episode.
I'd like to welcome Rachel todayon the podcast, Rachel is
(00:52):
someone with lived experience ofhomelessness and has kindly
agreed to speak to us today andshare her experiences. So
Rachel, you first sought housingpublic housing when you came to
Sydney. So
Rachel (01:07):
in 2000, ago approved public housing because we had to
vote on children and the bad thedetails to mental health. So I
requested that I have separatehousing, the father have his own
housing, and that was in thedocuments we handed up. And I
(01:28):
have my own with the children.He was put in a tenancy with me
and the children. And yeah, justwent on from there. It was like
slowly but slowly, you like gottaken away from you. You just
have people organisingeverything about you. I was the
head tenant, anything thathappened, where any actions he
(01:50):
did,
Bridget Barker (01:52):
you were responsible?
Rachel (01:53):
Well, I didn't know that at the time. They made it sound
really beautiful that yeah, thisis it, we're going to help you
we're going to do this. "Youdon't have to worry anymore.
Here's the house and thechildren started school. And the
father got involved with thecommunity group and the P&C or
something. And I asked the P&Cnot to take too much that the
(02:17):
father was saying because he didhave mental health problems. And
there was a disagreement thatstarted in the community. It was
a very small community. And theywrote a few letters. So, all of
a sudden, without any notice, Igot a letter saying I owe 1000s
of dollars in rent because mysubsidy had been cancelled.
(02:40):
Because I had broken myagreement, because I had a
person in the house causingproblems in the community. And I
had the police and the riotsquad surround the house, come
and take the father away toSouthern Hospital, mental
(03:01):
hospital for six weeks.
And Department of Housing movedus into another house where we
didn't have a problem for fouryears. And once there was a
problem started up, Departmentof Housing tried to get my
children's father committedagain and they moved me into a
(03:25):
private rental but they ownedthe rental. And they moved me
from Department of Housing houseto there. And then from there
just to motels and motels andmotels which is
Bridget Barker (03:36):
So no stability,
Rachel (03:37):
No stability, and even now I'm afraid of stability. I
really fear what it's like tolive knowing you're safe. And no
one can take that away from you.
Bridget Barker (03:58):
Housing never considered housing the
children's father separately, sothat you and the children could
have that stability?
Rachel (04:07):
No. There was one time we were in a motel. It was 2008.
They moved us from a fivebedroom house and and put us in
motel. And I was very sick atthe time because 'dI just had a
triple spinal fusion operation.And no one cared about anything.
(04:28):
Like I had all my operations andeverything. It was all about my
children's father and hiscommunications with the
Why did they move you intomotels instead of Department of
services, because he had severemental health. So they'd just
get every, all theirofficeworkers together and they'd just
(04:49):
argued with him.
Housing property?
I don't know. That's what youhave to ask Department of
Housing. Cause I never wanted toleave the first housing
property. I never wanted toleave that, but they didn't know
how to stop the complaints fromcoming in, even though they were
false.
Bridget Barker (05:09):
So the way they managed the neighbourhood
situation was to move you on?
Rachel (05:13):
Yeah, because we're housos. And then when they moved
us on, they made sure wewouldn't tell anyone that we
were Department of Housingpeople. And as soon as they
found out, we got moved alongagain,
I had to be in control ofeveryone in that house.
Everyone's actions in thathouse. I was classified as a
(05:35):
problem tenant because of whatmy ex was doing. They actually
marked it down as me being theproblem tenant and not him.
Because he wasn't a tenant. Andeven with the moving around from
motel to motel accommodation,temporary accommodation. So they
(05:55):
warned me that if there was oneproblem, they will cancel the
lease.
I believed and was taught thatservices were out there. So when
I went out there to seek theservices and that backfired in a
way because it was solelybecause of the communication
breakdowns at the client servicelevel.
Bridget Barker (06:18):
So what do you think Housing could have done
that would have made a bigdifference to you and your
family's life?
Rachel (06:26):
Not blame me for my, the children's father's actions. And
show my children how tocommunicate when they were
younger. Not come in and be thisauthoritarian because that took
all power of me as being amother away in a way. Because,
(06:48):
as my children grew older, theydidn't see me as a mother
figure. In a way they saw me asjust a provider. Not even a
provider because I wasn't evenproviding for em, even though I
was trying.
If I had that stableaccommadation, I could have gone
to uni, I wanted to go up whenmy youngest son. Even though I
(07:10):
knew their Dad was not verynice, I still had a plan. And I
tried to do that, but you can'tdo that when you get moved
around and you're trying to lookafter four little children and
trying to deal with everythingelse in life. If I would have
had that extra little bit ofhelp when my youngest son went
to school, and that house was aprivate rental. If we were moved
(07:33):
into Department of Housinghouse, a normal Department of
Housing house, we could'vestayed there and worked with it.
And maybe I could have got helpwith the children's father or
something along the way.
Bridget Barker (07:46):
Sounds like you were unfairly classified under
their system as well, atheproblem tenant when really the
problems were being generatedfrom your children's father,
Rachel (07:56):
Yeah, and the outside community and the way they dealt
with it. But it could have beenhandled, because I think by the
way, they moved, that firsthouse I was in, they should have
just left me there and let usdeal with it properly, instead
of everyone just throwing wordsaround to get what they want.
Bridget Barker (08:18):
So having a kind of a, an opportunity for you and
the neighbourhood to meet andconciliate, work out where the
problems were arising from, itmight have resolved it there and
then you could've stayed on.
Rachel (08:31):
Yeah. Instead of things getting worse and worse and
worse. But then they say he wasdoing things like that to them
when he was actually being veryabusive to me, not to community.
Bridget Barker (08:45):
And nobody called out the abuse or the
violence and you wereexperiencing?
Rachel (08:49):
No. It's like when the Department of Community
Services. They come in, they doa child welfare check. They've
got the hardest job in theworld. Don't get me wrong. I
would not like to be a clientservice officer. But you go into
a family situation and you'retaking notes and you're writing
notes down. The family you'redealing with is in a crisis
(09:12):
traumatic situation at the timethey're in and they're facing
homelessness. If you've got thefear of having someone write
down that you're cancelled,you're out of housing, you're
constantly facing homelessnessevery day. And you know wherever
you go, you're gotta just tryand be what that person wants
(09:38):
you to be, so you don't facethat homelessness. You don't put
your children in homelessness.That's what my life was like for
about 15 years.
Bridget Barker (09:49):
That's a lot of stress to be living with.
Rachel (09:51):
Yeah. And then about when I was 42, I just went
"That's it. I don't want nothingto do with the community or
anything and I just walked outof my home, my children and
everything.
Bridget Barker (10:05):
So you've mentioned Department of Housing
coming in and child protection.It sounds to me like there are a
number of supports that mighthave made a big difference to
your family.
Rachel (10:16):
Yeah. To me child protection should be about going
into a family. Not having thatfear when you hear that they're
coming. Not having that fearthat they're going to just
decide on your life in an hour,or whatever it is. There's a big
(10:37):
fear factor, when you get thattext message saying,"Can we come
and speak to you about yourchildren or your grandchildren"
or something. So sometimesyou've got client service
officers. They aren't veryexperienced in mental health or
bringing up children. Like, howdo you know how to. Bringing up
(11:00):
children, it's not about owninga child or giving the right
material items. First, you'vegot to provide a shelter, and
you got to provide food and yougotta, but as they're slowly
growing, you've gotta guide themand show them how to live.
Bridget Barker (11:15):
You've mentioned with your, the father of your
children suffering from mentalhealth problems, that he was
violent to you. Did anyone everoffer you support as the victim
of someone experiencing violencein the home?
Rachel (11:34):
I got offered support, but not the support that I
needed. It's very hard toexplain. When I moved up here,
it was more because of themental health interaction. It
was more he had mental health.So he needed help more than me.
(11:56):
That, I think that was more mymindset than anything else. And
in the past, I had tried to getsupport and leave him, but that
just made the situation a lotworse. So as the children grew
older, and with the way, justhow the chain reactions of life
(12:16):
interacted, I suppose it becamepossible to leave him.
I was being moved around byDepartment of Housing anyway. It
was all under my name. So if Iwent to go and seek help. My
older. Once your boys turntwelve, they're classed as men,
(12:37):
so they can't be moved aroundwith you. So if I were to seek
help, to get help from domesticviolence services or anything
when the boys were younger. (Atthat time, I don't know, it
might be different now. I'mgoing back a few years.) I
couldn't get help. I couldn'tleave their father and get help
(13:00):
with the boys, because they weretoo old and they couldn't go
into a woman's shelter.
Bridget Barker (13:05):
So they would be, if you took the option to go
to a women's shelter, the boyswould be left on their own with
the Father?
Rachel (13:12):
Yeah. And then all their housing assistance would be
taken away.
Bridget Barker (13:20):
So it made it difficult for you to seek help.
Yeah. And to change yoursituation.
Rachel (13:25):
Yeah. Because I was getting temporary accommodation
with the father of my children.So you just have to live with
what you've got in front of you.
Bridget Barker (13:32):
And you mentioned that you had spinal
surgery. Yeah. And you had to goback to living in a motel to
recuperate from that.
Rachel (13:40):
Within six months. Yeah, within six months. They may.
Well, after the operation, I gota letter from Housing that they
were moving us and to pack thestuff up and it took them about
six months. They went to move usto a house, but it was another
private rental. We went andlooked at the house and I
(14:04):
couldn't walk up the hill to getto the front door because of my
operation. It was that steepwhere it was. And it was totally
medically unsuitable, so wecouldn't accept it. So that made
me a problem tenant.
Bridget Barker (14:20):
So you mentioned child protection, coming to do
checks and meet with you atdifferent times? Did they ever
offer support or was it more athreat of having the children
removed?
Rachel (14:33):
No. They never offered any support. And at the time
there only support was justinterviewing the children at
school and seeing if there wasanything happening at home.
Bridget Barker (14:43):
Did you experience any legal problems
that you would connect withbeing at risk of homelessness or
being homeless?
Rachel (14:51):
Yeah. And while we were living in motels, a lot of legal
problems like, just simpleproblems with children, like
travelling to the trains to getto school because they had to
travel long distances on publictransport sometimes, because
they wanted to stay in the sameschool. So there'll be fines, or
(15:12):
the main legal one wasinteractions with police. Like,
I think both of my oldestchildren have got their first
charge was assault police orsomething, and it was on the
train. The police have a very usand them attitude. As a young
mum, I did pull em up on it afew times. I did see the way
(15:35):
they were treating some of thechildren. They provoke the
young teenagers into getting alittle bit aggressive with them.
There was one day I was at ashopping centre, and I was. I
couldn't get up the stairs to goin and get the shopping, so I
(15:57):
gave the shopping list to my twooldest boys and gave them money.
And I was waiting outside andwas just having a cigarette. And
I was just talking to a coupleof other teenagers, their
friends. And the police assumedthat I was causing trouble
because their friends were knownto police. So they asked me to
(16:21):
move on. And I told em, I wasjust waiting for my son to come,
my son's to come down with theshopping. And if it's alright, I
can move because I was at a busstop. So, and the next minute I
know, I wake up. I'm on theground. And I look over and
there's my two sons and they'rein handcuffs. I'm in handcuffs.
(16:43):
And I think I got knocked outbecause I don't remember
actually getting taken to theground. I just was on the ground
and we went down to the cells.And we were in the cells for a
little bit. And released withoutcharge, because we had a
(17:06):
shopping receipt.
I don't like to assume things.But I do think it was because we
were judged, because we didn'thave that home. And we were
being moved around from motel tomotel.
Bridget Barker (17:18):
So being homeless made you a target.
Rachel (17:22):
In a way. What if that didn't happen? So it was this
vicious cycle and you just gettrapped in and you're trying to
deal with so many things at onetime, and then you. Who you are
you? A number.
Bridget Barker (17:36):
So this podcast is part of our Law for Community
Worker series. Would you haveany tips for community workers
that are helping people thatmight be living in similar
situations that you'veexperienced?
Rachel (17:54):
Yeah. At the first meeting, don't make out that
things shouldn't be the way theyare in that person's life. You
need to rebuild a trust and getrid of all the fear and doubt
that that person has, before youcan properly work with them.
Because, people don't trustcommunity workers. If someone
(18:16):
comes up to me, and says, "Oh,yeah, I'll fix this all up for
you" and all that, I don'tbelieve them. Like at the
moment, if I didn't have myyounger son, I would be living
on the street. At this point intime, I wouldn't be seeking any
assistance from anyone.
You've got to be truthful andhonest with each other. You
(18:38):
when. You're, you're having anappointment with someone's life.
That's. Your job is just nine tofive. This is someone's life
you're dealing with. They mighthave done things in the past
that might not make sense toyou. But you've got to try and
walk in their shoes to helpthem. So if you try and go if
(18:59):
you go into an appointment withall your social worker words,
and all your lawyer words andall those words, they're just
words that really don't doanything but give you false hope
and false promises. And you needto rebuild that trust back into
those words.
Bridget Barker (19:18):
So don't make quick judgments and meet people
where they are.
Rachel (19:23):
Yeah, because like there's been times when I've
been a really crazy person,like, if you, you talked to me,
I'll yell at you. Because of thesituation I'm in at that time.
And if, Most of the times mepersonally, if there's no way
out and there's no solution, Ican really get in a fearful
(19:46):
state. And so I'll be adifferent person to communicate
to you than I am today. And whatmight seem a problem to me might
not seem like a problem to you,but for some reason, it's a
problem to me. And you've gottafind that out. With my help. We
can only do it together. We cantry and work together to find a
(20:10):
solution. So yeah. You've gottatake time, Like someone might be
screaming at you down the phone,because they're not allowed to
go back into their home orsomething. You've gotta try and
work that out with them, ifthat's your job. And take
breaks, and get away from work.So if you can work with the
(20:34):
client and find a client thatyou can truly work with, it
takes time.
Bridget Barker (20:40):
Do you have any thoughts or suggestions about
what the government could do toprovide better supports for
people experiencing mentalhealth issues?
Rachel (20:53):
I would not know how to tell the government what to do
with the mental health system oranything. I think, or we've got
to help the government more. SoI think that's the problem in
our society, too. We expect thegovernment to solve all our
problems. Where, isn't that whata community is? we work
together, to help solve thoseproblems?
Bridget Barker (21:15):
I suppose I asked about help with mental
health issues, because it seemedthat your children's father's
mental health issues were a bigfactor that impacted on you
being at risk of homelessnessfor so many years. And I suppose
if, if he had been provided witha greater level of support, that
(21:40):
might have allowed you and thechildren to have a more stable
home situation.
Rachel (21:46):
See, that's why I got confused by your question
because back then I was told thesupport was there. And to go out
and get a letter. Go and see thedoctors. You go and see your
doctor. You get your letter andthen you take your letters to
the Department. And then thoseletters are your voice for
(22:09):
mental health. But for somereason those letters weren't
looked at properly. And insteadof him being a problem, it was
put down that I was the problem,on my file. I don't know why
someone did that. They weren'tsupposed to do that. The system
was there set up for that. Mywhole life, like for 20 years
(22:31):
was just going around seeingdoctors and getting letters for
Housing. Not to help me.
Bridget Barker (22:38):
You've spoken to me previously about things
changing for you that have had apositive impact on your life.
Would you like to talk aboutthat?
Rachel (22:48):
I think what really had a positive impact in my life is
when I joined The Big Issue as avendor, I was homeless. They
actually got me back intouniversity and stuff like that,
and got me back into thecommunity. And made me see that
(23:09):
the community wasn't a badplace. And I didn't realise
myself that I had gone into that'us and them mentality', which I
really didn't want to be. Andwe've got a lot to learn from
our ancestors and the originallandowners here, I think.
(23:31):
And that's what sort of got megoing again. As soon as I
started selling The Big Issuemagazine in the mornings at peak
hour, and started talking topeople on their way to work and
just playing music. And Inoticed how sad everyone was.
So, I stopped feeling sorry formyself as a Big Issue vendor and
(23:56):
started seeing me. And that'sstill a daily process.
Bridget Barker (24:00):
So The Big Issue allowed you to reconnect with
other people?
Rachel (24:05):
It stopped that big long day happening. Yeah. And I
stopped havingto communicatewith Department of Housing and
all those other people andstarted looking after myself.
But unfortunately, because of mychildren and other things like
you still need a house. Youcan't do that being homeless.
(24:27):
You do need a home.
My children never experiencedfamily holidays or stuff like
that. Movies would be a once offthing in the year and it's good
just to have a place where youcan go and just get away from
everything. That will be nice ifI could do that one day.
Bridget Barker (24:47):
And so do you have any suggestions about what
the government could do toimprove the situation of
homelessness?
Rachel (24:58):
I think, to me, I would love someone to try and explain
to me how the house prices havegotten so high over the last 20
years. Like, like when you go tocourt and if you go and steal,
shoplift or something, you gettold by the judge "The community
doesn't agreewith this. You'renot doing the community any
(25:21):
favours." Well I don't think thehouse pricing rising is doing
the community any favours. It isdoing individual people favours
or individual businessesfavours. And if we truly want to
go with the way our, theindigenous people lived well, no
one owned the land back then.
(25:42):
Sometimes they need to be like aparent, I suppose, as a
government. Put your foot downand say, "No. enough. We're not
going to have a company thatlives off plan prices and
rentals and all that, becauseyou have such high rentals, your
middle class workforce can'twork. I think the government
(26:04):
does need to have someregulation in how the houses are
bought and sold and in therental market.
My youngest son, he works fulltime. Two jobs. And he lives
with three other adults. Youngadults. And they're just working
from week to week. They can putmoney away. They, their place
(26:26):
they're renting is $1,000 aweek.
Bridget Barker (26:29):
Oh my goodness. That's horrendous!
Rachel (26:33):
Is it's like. Back in 2007, Department, we were
renting a house, $550 a fivebedroom house. I don't
understand that. I really don'tunderstand how that's gone from
2007. I know it's the interestrates. I know all that. I know
everything like that. But yeah,that's not. You're gonna always
(26:56):
have homelessness.
Bridget Barker (26:58):
And you've mentioned that you go and speak
in different places for The BigIssue. Will you tell us a bit
about that?
Rachel (27:09):
That really. Yeah, that, that was one of the times that
really did turn my, like my lifearound. I never forget when I
got asked "Would I like tobecome a guest speaker?" Why
would anyone want to know mylife? I don't even want to know
my life. Why would anyone wantto hear my life? And I did a
(27:29):
talk with a group of yearelevens. And the first part is
just all the basic averages, .figures and what homelessness is
all about. Marginalisation. Itgoes through a little bit of
that, and it can get a littlebit. It's just all those numbers
(27:51):
and averages and all that stuff.And I'm just sitting there. And
then it was my turn to talk andI had to speak about my life and
my experience of homelessnessfor 10 minutes. And I was so
nervous. I was like reallynervous.
And I just started talking,briefing about a little bit of
how when I was a teenager youhad to make, when you went home
(28:15):
to make a phone call. And thatjust got like, the faces of all
the children were so shocked.They didn't understand that.
That was weird. Like,
Bridget Barker (28:24):
I remember that.
Rachel (28:24):
Yeah. And how phone calls were private. Yeah. Like
it still gets to be now. Whenpeople. Yeah, I find it hard how
quick we've changed from phonecalls, being private
conversations to now phone callsbeing so public. And, by the
time I was finished, thequestions. And then I just
(28:45):
thought the questions of thesechildren would ask was so
thought provoking. "I've knownall types of homelessness, ask
me everything." And theirresponses and just the caring
attitude. But what I do find isthe attitudes of the children I
(29:05):
speak to, they actually didn'tknow that life's out there, in a
way because all they're shown iswhat's on the media, or what's
in the local news. They don'tsee the unique side, or the one
person's side of what that oneperson needs to go through.
And each talk it just, it drainsyou. It's really hard, but I
(29:30):
like it because I get to turnall that hate I've experienced
in my life around into somethingcreative. Because I grew up
believing, I was taught that ifyou were in jail, if you were
homeless, you choose to bethere. And that's not true. Some
people don't have the rightfoundations and life's a chain
(29:51):
reaction. And if you don't havethe right network and the right
support there behind you. Youcan get caught in a chain
reaction. It's just likeeverything else. It takes time.
It's a chain reaction of eventsthat have to sort of be broken,
to stop it from happening again.
I get to talk. It's not someonetalking for me, like I'm telling
(30:16):
my story. I'm not having someonetranslate my story for me. You
know, for whatever they want.I'm just telling you a story.
And then what we get from it isamazing. I've spoken to refugees
and so many other people overthe years, I get paid to talk.
But no one will listen to me inmy personal life.
Bridget Barker (30:43):
That's all for this episode. I thank Rachel for
sharing her experiences and forher thoughtful tips for those of
us working with peopleexperiencing or at risk of
homelessness. I also thank theHomeless Persons Legal Service
for putting me in touch with thepeople I interviewed. You can
(31:04):
have a look at the Show Notesfor some useful links to
services. Thank you forlistening. Our next episode
should be out soon.
This is a place to call home our podcast series
on homelessness. In this fifthepisode, I speak to Rachel a
person with lived experience ofhomelessness. I thank Rachel and
also Rebecca and David whogenerously shared their
experiences with me for thispodcast. This episode was
(00:27):
recorded on the lands of theGadigal people of the Eora
nation. And I pay my respects totheir elders past and present,
and to any Aboriginal or TorresStrait Islander people listening
to this episode.
I'd like to welcome Rachel todayon the podcast, Rachel is
(00:52):
someone with lived experience ofhomelessness and has kindly
agreed to speak to us today andshare her experiences. So
Rachel, you first sought housingpublic housing when you came to
Sydney. So
Rachel (01:07):
in 2000, ago approved public housing because we had to
vote on children and the bad thedetails to mental health. So I
requested that I have separatehousing, the father have his own
housing, and that was in thedocuments we handed up. And I
(01:28):
have my own with the children.He was put in a tenancy with me
and the children. And yeah, justwent on from there. It was like
slowly but slowly, you like gottaken away from you. You just
have people organisingeverything about you. I was the
head tenant, anything thathappened, where any actions he
(01:50):
did,
Bridget Barker (01:52):
you were responsible?
Rachel (01:53):
Well, I didn't know that at the time. They made it sound
really beautiful that yeah, thisis it, we're going to help you
we're going to do this. "Youdon't have to worry anymore.
Here's the house and thechildren started school. And the
father got involved with thecommunity group and the P&C or
something. And I asked the P&Cnot to take too much that the
(02:17):
father was saying because he didhave mental health problems. And
there was a disagreement thatstarted in the community. It was
a very small community. And theywrote a few letters. So, all of
a sudden, without any notice, Igot a letter saying I owe 1000s
of dollars in rent because mysubsidy had been cancelled.
(02:40):
Because I had broken myagreement, because I had a
person in the house causingproblems in the community. And I
had the police and the riotsquad surround the house, come
and take the father away toSouthern Hospital, mental
(03:01):
hospital for six weeks.
And Department of Housing movedus into another house where we
didn't have a problem for fouryears. And once there was a
problem started up, Departmentof Housing tried to get my
children's father committedagain and they moved me into a
(03:25):
private rental but they ownedthe rental. And they moved me
from Department of Housing houseto there. And then from there
just to motels and motels andmotels which is
Bridget Barker (03:36):
So no stability,
Rachel (03:37):
No stability, and even now I'm afraid of stability. I
really fear what it's like tolive knowing you're safe. And no
one can take that away from you.
Bridget Barker (03:58):
Housing never considered housing the
children's father separately, sothat you and the children could
have that stability?
Rachel (04:07):
No. There was one time we were in a motel. It was 2008.
They moved us from a fivebedroom house and and put us in
motel. And I was very sick atthe time because 'dI just had a
triple spinal fusion operation.And no one cared about anything.
(04:28):
Like I had all my operations andeverything. It was all about my
children's father and hiscommunications with the
Why did they move you intomotels instead of Department of
services, because he had severemental health. So they'd just
get every, all theirofficeworkers together and they'd just
(04:49):
argued with him.
Housing property?
I don't know. That's what youhave to ask Department of
Housing. Cause I never wanted toleave the first housing
property. I never wanted toleave that, but they didn't know
how to stop the complaints fromcoming in, even though they were
false.
Bridget Barker (05:09):
So the way they managed the neighbourhood
situation was to move you on?
Rachel (05:13):
Yeah, because we're housos. And then when they moved
us on, they made sure wewouldn't tell anyone that we
were Department of Housingpeople. And as soon as they
found out, we got moved alongagain,
I had to be in control ofeveryone in that house.
Everyone's actions in thathouse. I was classified as a
(05:35):
problem tenant because of whatmy ex was doing. They actually
marked it down as me being theproblem tenant and not him.
Because he wasn't a tenant. Andeven with the moving around from
motel to motel accommodation,temporary accommodation. So they
(05:55):
warned me that if there was oneproblem, they will cancel the
lease.
I believed and was taught thatservices were out there. So when
I went out there to seek theservices and that backfired in a
way because it was solelybecause of the communication
breakdowns at the client servicelevel.
Bridget Barker (06:18):
So what do you think Housing could have done
that would have made a bigdifference to you and your
family's life?
Rachel (06:26):
Not blame me for my, the children's father's actions. And
show my children how tocommunicate when they were
younger. Not come in and be thisauthoritarian because that took
all power of me as being amother away in a way. Because,
(06:48):
as my children grew older, theydidn't see me as a mother
figure. In a way they saw me asjust a provider. Not even a
provider because I wasn't evenproviding for em, even though I
was trying.
If I had that stableaccommadation, I could have gone
to uni, I wanted to go up whenmy youngest son. Even though I
(07:10):
knew their Dad was not verynice, I still had a plan. And I
tried to do that, but you can'tdo that when you get moved
around and you're trying to lookafter four little children and
trying to deal with everythingelse in life. If I would have
had that extra little bit ofhelp when my youngest son went
to school, and that house was aprivate rental. If we were moved
(07:33):
into Department of Housinghouse, a normal Department of
Housing house, we could'vestayed there and worked with it.
And maybe I could have got helpwith the children's father or
something along the way.
Bridget Barker (07:46):
Sounds like you were unfairly classified under
their system as well, atheproblem tenant when really the
problems were being generatedfrom your children's father,
Rachel (07:56):
Yeah, and the outside community and the way they dealt
with it. But it could have beenhandled, because I think by the
way, they moved, that firsthouse I was in, they should have
just left me there and let usdeal with it properly, instead
of everyone just throwing wordsaround to get what they want.
Bridget Barker (08:18):
So having a kind of a, an opportunity for you and
the neighbourhood to meet andconciliate, work out where the
problems were arising from, itmight have resolved it there and
then you could've stayed on.
Rachel (08:31):
Yeah. Instead of things getting worse and worse and
worse. But then they say he wasdoing things like that to them
when he was actually being veryabusive to me, not to community.
Bridget Barker (08:45):
And nobody called out the abuse or the
violence and you wereexperiencing?
Rachel (08:49):
No. It's like when the Department of Community
Services. They come in, they doa child welfare check. They've
got the hardest job in theworld. Don't get me wrong. I
would not like to be a clientservice officer. But you go into
a family situation and you'retaking notes and you're writing
notes down. The family you'redealing with is in a crisis
(09:12):
traumatic situation at the timethey're in and they're facing
homelessness. If you've got thefear of having someone write
down that you're cancelled,you're out of housing, you're
constantly facing homelessnessevery day. And you know wherever
you go, you're gotta just tryand be what that person wants
(09:38):
you to be, so you don't facethat homelessness. You don't put
your children in homelessness.That's what my life was like for
about 15 years.
Bridget Barker (09:49):
That's a lot of stress to be living with.
Rachel (09:51):
Yeah. And then about when I was 42, I just went
"That's it. I don't want nothingto do with the community or
anything and I just walked outof my home, my children and
everything.
Bridget Barker (10:05):
So you've mentioned Department of Housing
coming in and child protection.It sounds to me like there are a
number of supports that mighthave made a big difference to
your family.
Rachel (10:16):
Yeah. To me child protection should be about going
into a family. Not having thatfear when you hear that they're
coming. Not having that fearthat they're going to just
decide on your life in an hour,or whatever it is. There's a big
(10:37):
fear factor, when you get thattext message saying,"Can we come
and speak to you about yourchildren or your grandchildren"
or something. So sometimesyou've got client service
officers. They aren't veryexperienced in mental health or
bringing up children. Like, howdo you know how to. Bringing up
(11:00):
children, it's not about owninga child or giving the right
material items. First, you'vegot to provide a shelter, and
you got to provide food and yougotta, but as they're slowly
growing, you've gotta guide themand show them how to live.
Bridget Barker (11:15):
You've mentioned with your, the father of your
children suffering from mentalhealth problems, that he was
violent to you. Did anyone everoffer you support as the victim
of someone experiencing violencein the home?
Rachel (11:34):
I got offered support, but not the support that I
needed. It's very hard toexplain. When I moved up here,
it was more because of themental health interaction. It
was more he had mental health.So he needed help more than me.
(11:56):
That, I think that was more mymindset than anything else. And
in the past, I had tried to getsupport and leave him, but that
just made the situation a lotworse. So as the children grew
older, and with the way, justhow the chain reactions of life
(12:16):
interacted, I suppose it becamepossible to leave him.
I was being moved around byDepartment of Housing anyway. It
was all under my name. So if Iwent to go and seek help. My
older. Once your boys turntwelve, they're classed as men,
(12:37):
so they can't be moved aroundwith you. So if I were to seek
help, to get help from domesticviolence services or anything
when the boys were younger. (Atthat time, I don't know, it
might be different now. I'mgoing back a few years.) I
couldn't get help. I couldn'tleave their father and get help
(13:00):
with the boys, because they weretoo old and they couldn't go
into a woman's shelter.
Bridget Barker (13:05):
So they would be, if you took the option to go
to a women's shelter, the boyswould be left on their own with
the Father?
Rachel (13:12):
Yeah. And then all their housing assistance would be
taken away.
Bridget Barker (13:20):
So it made it difficult for you to seek help.
Yeah. And to change yoursituation.
Rachel (13:25):
Yeah. Because I was getting temporary accommodation
with the father of my children.So you just have to live with
what you've got in front of you.
Bridget Barker (13:32):
And you mentioned that you had spinal
surgery. Yeah. And you had to goback to living in a motel to
recuperate from that.
Rachel (13:40):
Within six months. Yeah, within six months. They may.
Well, after the operation, I gota letter from Housing that they
were moving us and to pack thestuff up and it took them about
six months. They went to move usto a house, but it was another
private rental. We went andlooked at the house and I
(14:04):
couldn't walk up the hill to getto the front door because of my
operation. It was that steepwhere it was. And it was totally
medically unsuitable, so wecouldn't accept it. So that made
me a problem tenant.
Bridget Barker (14:20):
So you mentioned child protection, coming to do
checks and meet with you atdifferent times? Did they ever
offer support or was it more athreat of having the children
removed?
Rachel (14:33):
No. They never offered any support. And at the time
there only support was justinterviewing the children at
school and seeing if there wasanything happening at home.
Bridget Barker (14:43):
Did you experience any legal problems
that you would connect withbeing at risk of homelessness or
being homeless?
Rachel (14:51):
Yeah. And while we were living in motels, a lot of legal
problems like, just simpleproblems with children, like
travelling to the trains to getto school because they had to
travel long distances on publictransport sometimes, because
they wanted to stay in the sameschool. So there'll be fines, or
(15:12):
the main legal one wasinteractions with police. Like,
I think both of my oldestchildren have got their first
charge was assault police orsomething, and it was on the
train. The police have a very usand them attitude. As a young
mum, I did pull em up on it afew times. I did see the way
(15:35):
they were treating some of thechildren. They provoke the
young teenagers into getting alittle bit aggressive with them.
There was one day I was at ashopping centre, and I was. I
couldn't get up the stairs to goin and get the shopping, so I
(15:57):
gave the shopping list to my twooldest boys and gave them money.
And I was waiting outside andwas just having a cigarette. And
I was just talking to a coupleof other teenagers, their
friends. And the police assumedthat I was causing trouble
because their friends were knownto police. So they asked me to
(16:21):
move on. And I told em, I wasjust waiting for my son to come,
my son's to come down with theshopping. And if it's alright, I
can move because I was at a busstop. So, and the next minute I
know, I wake up. I'm on theground. And I look over and
there's my two sons and they'rein handcuffs. I'm in handcuffs.
(16:43):
And I think I got knocked outbecause I don't remember
actually getting taken to theground. I just was on the ground
and we went down to the cells.And we were in the cells for a
little bit. And released withoutcharge, because we had a
(17:06):
shopping receipt.
I don't like to assume things.But I do think it was because we
were judged, because we didn'thave that home. And we were
being moved around from motel tomotel.
Bridget Barker (17:18):
So being homeless made you a target.
Rachel (17:22):
In a way. What if that didn't happen? So it was this
vicious cycle and you just gettrapped in and you're trying to
deal with so many things at onetime, and then you. Who you are
you? A number.
Bridget Barker (17:36):
So this podcast is part of our Law for Community
Worker series. Would you haveany tips for community workers
that are helping people thatmight be living in similar
situations that you'veexperienced?
Rachel (17:54):
Yeah. At the first meeting, don't make out that
things shouldn't be the way theyare in that person's life. You
need to rebuild a trust and getrid of all the fear and doubt
that that person has, before youcan properly work with them.
Because, people don't trustcommunity workers. If someone
(18:16):
comes up to me, and says, "Oh,yeah, I'll fix this all up for
you" and all that, I don'tbelieve them. Like at the
moment, if I didn't have myyounger son, I would be living
on the street. At this point intime, I wouldn't be seeking any
assistance from anyone.
You've got to be truthful andhonest with each other. You
(18:38):
when. You're, you're having anappointment with someone's life.
That's. Your job is just nine tofive. This is someone's life
you're dealing with. They mighthave done things in the past
that might not make sense toyou. But you've got to try and
walk in their shoes to helpthem. So if you try and go if
(18:59):
you go into an appointment withall your social worker words,
and all your lawyer words andall those words, they're just
words that really don't doanything but give you false hope
and false promises. And you needto rebuild that trust back into
those words.
Bridget Barker (19:18):
So don't make quick judgments and meet people
where they are.
Rachel (19:23):
Yeah, because like there's been times when I've
been a really crazy person,like, if you, you talked to me,
I'll yell at you. Because of thesituation I'm in at that time.
And if, Most of the times mepersonally, if there's no way
out and there's no solution, Ican really get in a fearful
(19:46):
state. And so I'll be adifferent person to communicate
to you than I am today. And whatmight seem a problem to me might
not seem like a problem to you,but for some reason, it's a
problem to me. And you've gottafind that out. With my help. We
can only do it together. We cantry and work together to find a
(20:10):
solution. So yeah. You've gottatake time, Like someone might be
screaming at you down the phone,because they're not allowed to
go back into their home orsomething. You've gotta try and
work that out with them, ifthat's your job. And take
breaks, and get away from work.So if you can work with the
(20:34):
client and find a client thatyou can truly work with, it
takes time.
Bridget Barker (20:40):
Do you have any thoughts or suggestions about
what the government could do toprovide better supports for
people experiencing mentalhealth issues?
Rachel (20:53):
I would not know how to tell the government what to do
with the mental health system oranything. I think, or we've got
to help the government more. SoI think that's the problem in
our society, too. We expect thegovernment to solve all our
problems. Where, isn't that whata community is? we work
together, to help solve thoseproblems?
Bridget Barker (21:15):
I suppose I asked about help with mental
health issues, because it seemedthat your children's father's
mental health issues were a bigfactor that impacted on you
being at risk of homelessnessfor so many years. And I suppose
if, if he had been provided witha greater level of support, that
(21:40):
might have allowed you and thechildren to have a more stable
home situation.
Rachel (21:46):
See, that's why I got confused by your question
because back then I was told thesupport was there. And to go out
and get a letter. Go and see thedoctors. You go and see your
doctor. You get your letter andthen you take your letters to
the Department. And then thoseletters are your voice for
(22:09):
mental health. But for somereason those letters weren't
looked at properly. And insteadof him being a problem, it was
put down that I was the problem,on my file. I don't know why
someone did that. They weren'tsupposed to do that. The system
was there set up for that. Mywhole life, like for 20 years
(22:31):
was just going around seeingdoctors and getting letters for
Housing. Not to help me.
Bridget Barker (22:38):
You've spoken to me previously about things
changing for you that have had apositive impact on your life.
Would you like to talk aboutthat?
Rachel (22:48):
I think what really had a positive impact in my life is
when I joined The Big Issue as avendor, I was homeless. They
actually got me back intouniversity and stuff like that,
and got me back into thecommunity. And made me see that
(23:09):
the community wasn't a badplace. And I didn't realise
myself that I had gone into that'us and them mentality', which I
really didn't want to be. Andwe've got a lot to learn from
our ancestors and the originallandowners here, I think.
(23:31):
And that's what sort of got megoing again. As soon as I
started selling The Big Issuemagazine in the mornings at peak
hour, and started talking topeople on their way to work and
just playing music. And Inoticed how sad everyone was.
So, I stopped feeling sorry formyself as a Big Issue vendor and
(23:56):
started seeing me. And that'sstill a daily process.
Bridget Barker (24:00):
So The Big Issue allowed you to reconnect with
other people?
Rachel (24:05):
It stopped that big long day happening. Yeah. And I
stopped havingto communicatewith Department of Housing and
all those other people andstarted looking after myself.
But unfortunately, because of mychildren and other things like
you still need a house. Youcan't do that being homeless.
(24:27):
You do need a home.
My children never experiencedfamily holidays or stuff like
that. Movies would be a once offthing in the year and it's good
just to have a place where youcan go and just get away from
everything. That will be nice ifI could do that one day.
Bridget Barker (24:47):
And so do you have any suggestions about what
the government could do toimprove the situation of
homelessness?
Rachel (24:58):
I think, to me, I would love someone to try and explain
to me how the house prices havegotten so high over the last 20
years. Like, like when you go tocourt and if you go and steal,
shoplift or something, you gettold by the judge "The community
doesn't agreewith this. You'renot doing the community any
(25:21):
favours." Well I don't think thehouse pricing rising is doing
the community any favours. It isdoing individual people favours
or individual businessesfavours. And if we truly want to
go with the way our, theindigenous people lived well, no
one owned the land back then.
(25:42):
Sometimes they need to be like aparent, I suppose, as a
government. Put your foot downand say, "No. enough. We're not
going to have a company thatlives off plan prices and
rentals and all that, becauseyou have such high rentals, your
middle class workforce can'twork. I think the government
(26:04):
does need to have someregulation in how the houses are
bought and sold and in therental market.
My youngest son, he works fulltime. Two jobs. And he lives
with three other adults. Youngadults. And they're just working
from week to week. They can putmoney away. They, their place
(26:26):
they're renting is $1,000 aweek.
Bridget Barker (26:29):
Oh my goodness. That's horrendous!
Rachel (26:33):
Is it's like. Back in 2007, Department, we were
renting a house, $550 a fivebedroom house. I don't
understand that. I really don'tunderstand how that's gone from
2007. I know it's the interestrates. I know all that. I know
everything like that. But yeah,that's not. You're gonna always
(26:56):
have homelessness.
Bridget Barker (26:58):
And you've mentioned that you go and speak
in different places for The BigIssue. Will you tell us a bit
about that?
Rachel (27:09):
That really. Yeah, that, that was one of the times that
really did turn my, like my lifearound. I never forget when I
got asked "Would I like tobecome a guest speaker?" Why
would anyone want to know mylife? I don't even want to know
my life. Why would anyone wantto hear my life? And I did a
(27:29):
talk with a group of yearelevens. And the first part is
just all the basic averages, .figures and what homelessness is
all about. Marginalisation. Itgoes through a little bit of
that, and it can get a littlebit. It's just all those numbers
(27:51):
and averages and all that stuff.And I'm just sitting there. And
then it was my turn to talk andI had to speak about my life and
my experience of homelessnessfor 10 minutes. And I was so
nervous. I was like reallynervous.
And I just started talking,briefing about a little bit of
how when I was a teenager youhad to make, when you went home
(28:15):
to make a phone call. And thatjust got like, the faces of all
the children were so shocked.They didn't understand that.
That was weird. Like,
Bridget Barker (28:24):
I remember that.
Rachel (28:24):
Yeah. And how phone calls were private. Yeah. Like
it still gets to be now. Whenpeople. Yeah, I find it hard how
quick we've changed from phonecalls, being private
conversations to now phone callsbeing so public. And, by the
time I was finished, thequestions. And then I just
(28:45):
thought the questions of thesechildren would ask was so
thought provoking. "I've knownall types of homelessness, ask
me everything." And theirresponses and just the caring
attitude. But what I do find isthe attitudes of the children I
(29:05):
speak to, they actually didn'tknow that life's out there, in a
way because all they're shown iswhat's on the media, or what's
in the local news. They don'tsee the unique side, or the one
person's side of what that oneperson needs to go through.
And each talk it just, it drainsyou. It's really hard, but I
(29:30):
like it because I get to turnall that hate I've experienced
in my life around into somethingcreative. Because I grew up
believing, I was taught that ifyou were in jail, if you were
homeless, you choose to bethere. And that's not true. Some
people don't have the rightfoundations and life's a chain
(29:51):
reaction. And if you don't havethe right network and the right
support there behind you. Youcan get caught in a chain
reaction. It's just likeeverything else. It takes time.
It's a chain reaction of eventsthat have to sort of be broken,
to stop it from happening again.
I get to talk. It's not someonetalking for me, like I'm telling
(30:16):
my story. I'm not having someonetranslate my story for me. You
know, for whatever they want.I'm just telling you a story.
And then what we get from it isamazing. I've spoken to refugees
and so many other people overthe years, I get paid to talk.
But no one will listen to me inmy personal life.
Bridget Barker (30:43):
That's all for this episode. I thank Rachel for
sharing her experiences and forher thoughtful tips for those of
us working with peopleexperiencing or at risk of
homelessness. I also thank theHomeless Persons Legal Service
for putting me in touch with thepeople I interviewed. You can
(31:04):
have a look at the Show Notesfor some useful links to
services. Thank you forlistening. Our next episode
should be out soon.
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