May 29, 2024 • 37 mins
This is Part 7 in our podcast series exploring homelessness in Australia and the legal issues people experience when they are homeless or at risk of homelessness. During this series we will be speaking to people from different services providing support and legal advice to those experiencing homelessness and to people with lived experience of homelessness.
We acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which this episode was made and pay our respects to Elders past and present.
In this 7th episode, Bridget from the Community Legal Education Branch speaks with Denise and Lowanna who work in Legal Aid NSW’s Aboriginal Women Leaving Custody project. Denise and Lowanna work with women in correctional centres who are at risk of homelessness when they are in custody or preparing to leave custody.
There is useful information in this episode about how community workers can support people who are homeless or at risk of homelessness.
Use the links below to find out more information about what we talked about in this episode.
The Legal Aid NSW contact number in prison is #2 on the prisoner CADL phone.
Department of Communities and Justice housing policies:
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/eligibility/social-housing
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/applying-assistance/applying
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/community-housing-policies/transitional-plus
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/aboriginal-housing/overview
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/ways/are-you-homeless/together-home
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/applying-assistance/waiting-times
https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/ways/domestic-family-violence
Music: Warm Romance Sunset by Bobby Cole
Please send questions, comments and feedback to cle@legalaid.nsw.gov.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
This is episode seven and thefinal episode in our podcast
series exploring homelessness inAustralia. In this episode, I
speak with staff from legalaids, Aboriginal women leaving
custody project about legalissues experienced by Aboriginal
women in custody and preparingto leave custody. Some of the
(00:27):
main issues these womenexperience relate to instability
of housing and domestic andfamily violence. I acknowledge
the traditional owners of theunseeded lands on which this
podcast episode was recorded andpay my respect to their care of
the land and to their elderspast, present and emerging.
(00:51):
Lowanna and Denise, thank youfor joining me on the podcast
today. Would you please tell usabout the Aboriginal Women
Leaving Custody Project and alittle bit about your roles
within that project?
Absolutely. So the AboriginalWomen Leaving Custody Project
originally began as a pilotcollaboration between Legal Aid,
(01:16):
DCJ, Housing and CorrectiveServices. And the purpose of the
service of the pilot at thattime was to try and address the
issue of homelessness andhousing instability for
Aboriginal women, as they'repreparing to be released from
custody. What it looks like nowis a statewide service to
(01:39):
support all Aboriginal womenacross New South Wales with
civil law issues, although thefocus still is housing and
homelessness. We have an inperson presence at Silverwater
Correctional Center and we'verecently expanded to mid north
coast Correctional Center andwe're looking to expand as well
to Dillwyina correctionalcenter. But that's still in the
(02:01):
And the way that the serviceruns essentially is once a month
My role, I am a senior solicitorwithin the team and so I managed
works.
we go into these correctionalcenters, we do community legal
the Silverwater outreach itselfas well as support our Grade
education, on a number ofdifferent topics, focusing
mostly on housing, fines victimsof violence and at times, we'll
Five, which might mean nothingto those of you listening, but
throw in social security andissues with Centrelink. And
we'll have a really informalconversation with the people in
(02:23):
custody who were present. Andthey'll engage in some sort of
like painting exercise, whilstwe give them information about
those legal issues. And then atthe end of that CLE, we then do
law checkups, which is our wayof collecting information about
legal issues that they might beexperiencing, and we collect
their details to thensubsequently do AVLs and provide
(02:45):
advice and ongoing legalassistance. And so we do that at
Silverwater Correctional Centerand Mid North Coast Correctional
Center, but we do acceptreferrals across the state.
(03:09):
essentially, is the person, thesenior solicitor managing the
whole service, supporting themwith the expansion. And then
from time to time going along toCLEs myself and running them.
I'll now past to Lowanna.
I think Denise explained thatsuper, super well. So I am a
solicitor and the AWLC team. Myrole is to give advice and help
(03:34):
with, assist through MAs andELAs and I go and do the
outreach at Silverwater.
Thanks, Lowanna. When you sayMA's and ELA's, I imagine our
audience is not going tonecessarily know what that
means. Do you want to justexpand on the sort of help that
you provide?
So basically, MAs are minorassistance, and ELAs are
(03:59):
extended legal assistance.
So that means a bit moreextended work, depending on on
the matter and help the clientneeds.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Lowanna is being a bithumble, I think. She does
provide a lot of assistance andessentially what that looks like
on the ground is she's the onethat's running the matter,
(04:20):
that's supporting the client tokeep hold of their housing.
Where required, she does thenegotiations with, you know, the
housing provider, or she'smaking sure that the client has
access to particular referrals,if required, to support their
rehabilitation. And sort of allthe things that need to be done
to make sure the client issupported, so that the civil
(04:42):
issue can be addressed, Lowannais doing and, and does for
whoever gets referred to her. Soit's quite extensive the support
that we provide.
Thank you. I'm interested tohear the types of legal issues
that the women that you workwith, ask for help with?
I think like a lot of the typesof issues that we assist with
(05:07):
are to do with housing. Yeah,housing, victims compensation
fines. If there's issues withCorrective Services, like
complaints.
Yeah, that's exactly right. Sothe main legal issue, I'd say,
that we see relate to housing,it might look a little bit
different depending on theclient. We have clients who are
(05:29):
current tenants of socialhousing properties often when
they go into custody. And so wewill support them with holding
on to their property wherepossible, including assisting
them to apply for an extensionof absence from their property.
That might look like negotiatingwith the housing provider, which
often will be DCJ housing. Andthat sort of that early
(05:53):
intervention work while we'redoing that negotiation to make
sure that the client at leasthas some clarity about how much
longer or the nature of theircriminal matter before they
either decide to relinquishtheir property or to fight the
process. At its worst, it lookslike us defending NCAT tribunal
termination proceedings, wherewe're trying to buy the clients
(06:17):
some time so that they know moreabout what's happening. So
ultimately, a lot of our clientsare on remand and have no real
clarity about how much longerthey're going to be in custody.
And so often our work will be,you know, trying to advocate for
them with housing, whilst theircriminal lawyers try to get some
clarity about what's going on.
(06:39):
In other times, the housingissue looks like our clients not
having any access to housing atall. So not being on the housing
list or being barred from beingon the housing list because of
their a former classificationthey've been given, and so
running appeals to sort of havethat reviewed and addressed with
(06:59):
the hopes that upon release,they can then get onto that list
and then have a pathway toaccessing housing.
It often can also look likereactivating old applications
that have been closederroneously, so that eventually
the client has less of a barrierto accessing housing, because I
think a lot of us know that,even really, once you're on the
list, you're still waiting, youcan still wait up to and over 10
(07:22):
years. So when it comes tohousing and sort of looking at
addressing the barriers that ourclients might be experiencing,
to either keeping their housingor to accessing housing.
As Lowanna said, we also do lotsof work with victims of domestic
violence. And that can look likeanything from assisting them to
(07:43):
access counselling, or toapplying for compensation,
whether that's a recognitionpayment, or, you know, immediate
needs payment or some other sortof payment to support their
rehabilitation upon release.Often, that money is used to
help set them up and sort ofavoid further violence where,
(08:04):
where possible.
We also support clients withissues they have in custody
relating to accessing adequatehealth care. And I think
prisoners health is another oneof our priorities. But really,
at the moment, I'd say thathousing has always been the
biggest focus for us because of,we understand that I think when
(08:26):
it comes to Aboriginal women incustody, a lot of the reasons
for recidivism and a lot of thereasons that people end up back
in custody is because ofunstable housing and not having
somewhere safe to sleep,. Itmeans there's a lot of a lot of
flow on effects that happen fromthat, including, you know,
inability to access supportservices and maintain contact
with them and, and really engagein that rehabilitation process.
(08:48):
So we see that if we can reallyaddress that housing issue once
we've got them in custody, andwe can get their instructions
and their goals, and we canreally do a lot to help support
them following their release.
Thank you. I think in a previousdiscussion, we had you also
mentioned assisting clients withclassification issues, because
(09:13):
they may not be able to accessprograms within prison.
That's right. Yeah. So there area number of prison specific
issues that we also assistclients with, including, you
know, if a client if a clientbelieves that they've been
inappropriately classified andtherefore can't access programs,
we might do a little bit ofminor assistance there to help
(09:37):
request a review of of thatclassification. Because
essentially, often for clientson remand, and then for other
clients, depending on theclassification, they don't have
access to particular programs,which means that the period of
time that they're in custodycan't be used to progress
anything or to engage inprograms and that can be quite
(09:59):
difficult for them in additionto obviously, their time in
custody. At times, that's someof the work that we'll do as
well.
You've both mentioned womenexperiencing domestic and family
violence as well. Do you seethat as a factor that may be one
of the causes of homelessnessthat these clients experience or
(10:21):
perhaps one of the causes of anadverse classification they may
have in relation to theirtenancy?
That's a really interestingquestion Bridget. I think
actually, it's the reverse. Ithink that homelessness often
will lead to experiences ofdomestic violence, or
homelessness, or the risk ofhomelessness can sometimes
(10:42):
perpetuate the experience ofdomestic violence. Anecdotally,
we've had so many clients say tous, "Like I just had nowhere
else to go." So they've goneback to partners that they
haven't felt safe with, becauseit's a choice between
experiencing violence orsleeping on the street. And so I
think the lack of sustainableand stable housing means that a
lot of people are having to makereally difficult choices, which
(11:05):
then have flow on consequences,in addition to obviously,
experiences of harm andviolence, including loss of
children and loss of care.Because of, you know, social
situations like that. So I thinkhousing is that social issue
that if we can get right willaddress a lot of these other
social issues that we seeinfluencing women into, I guess,
(11:28):
entering into custody or beingarrested or having those sorts
of experiences.
You also have mentioned, workingwith solicitors in other parts
of legal aid. I guess morespecifically, criminal
solicitors. You work inconjunction with them, I guess,
because you have a sharedclient?
Yeah, I think that's one of thebenefits of our service. I had a
(11:52):
client that was referred to usthrough another legal aid
department. It was the MentalHealth Advocacy Service, because
a client had quite significantmental health issues, and she
was in custody. And when it cameto us or our service, DCJ, were
threatening termination becausethey had received information
(12:12):
from Corrective Services thatthe client's earliest possible
release date was in 2026. And soat that point, they were sending
letters of relinquishment to theclient, the clients support
workers in custody to say, "Hey,please have the client sign this
relinquishment. They can't holdon to their tenancy, they're
gonna be away for longer thansix months. You know, 2026 is
(12:33):
too far. Nothing we can do."And so when it came to our
service, I think one of thegreat things about our services
that we were able to reach outto the client's criminal lawyer
to get an understanding of well,actually what is happening here?
Like, "Is there a court datecoming up? And what is the
likelihood of release on thiscourt date? And at what stage is
(12:53):
the client at so we can reallygive the client some clear
advice on whether or not torelinquish their property or not
to relinquish their property.Because what you don't want for
your client is to let go of aproperty they've worked so hard
to get only to be released acouple of months later into
homelessness and thensubsequently end up back in
prison. Because, homelessnesshas a pretty direct route,
(13:14):
really back to recidivism, Ithink the stats really support
that.
And so what we ended up doingwith this client is that reached
out to the criminal lawyer, thecriminal lawyer actually had a
hearing coming up in the weeksfollowing. We drafted a letter
of support, explain the client'shousing situation and how
critical it was that the clientbe released on bail, I think it
(13:34):
was. And the criminal lawyer hadexplained that actually, they
had had a hearing earlier, butbecause there was no clarity
about the client's housing andthe client's support services,
or any of the clients, yeah,support services that they
didn't really think the clientcould be released on to bail.
And so by us, contacting themand reaching out and being able
to provide that clarity and thatinsight into their housing, they
(13:57):
were able to then put thatbefore the judge and say, like,
"This is what's happening, thisis the risk. And this is why
it's important the client getbail." And as a consequence of
that, and I'm sure other thingsthat the criminal lawyer did,
I'm not taking all the credit.
But as a consequence of, ofthat, the client was released,
and were able to then hold on totheir housing. And so I think
(14:18):
our ability to work with otherlegal age teams is one of the
strengths of Legal Aidgenerally, and one of the one of
the strengths of our service andI'm really glad that we get to
do that. And we do that a loteven in like a facilitating
family law referrals, forexample, where our clients say,
"You know, if I don't keep myhouse, I won't get access to my
(14:40):
children." And so being able toget letters of support, for
example from the family lawyer,so we can make those
representations to DCJ asfurther reasons of, you know,
extending and absence fromproperty for example, means that
we're really able to workholistically. I mean, we can
really see the client'sexperience as a whole and not
just as you know, a civil lawissue here and a criminal law
issue here and a family lawissue here.
(15:02):
Yeah, I think, I think Legal Aidas an organization has moved
more and more towards providingwraparound services wherever we
can, because the benefits to theclients and I guess to the
justice system as well, inremoving clients from the
justice system are pretty clear.
(15:25):
Yeah, I agree Bridget.
You also mentioned in relationto that client, that the client
was experiencing mental healthissues. And I guess, if they
were able to be released andretain their housing, it would
mean that if they were alreadyreceiving support and help with
their mental health issues, itwould give them continuity of
(15:47):
care instead of having to tryand access care within the
correctional system.
That's right. And I thinkthat's, that's often part of the
submissions that we make, thatclients are often better off in
community where they have accessto their support systems, and
(16:08):
that it's less expensiveoverall, really, the system or
for government if clients aren'tin custody, and the outcomes
that we can achieve are always abetter and can be longer term,
essentially. Yeah, no, Icompletely agree with that
statement Bridget.
Lowanna you mentioned that youwere on a telephone advice
(16:29):
roster this morning. So how cansomeone who is in custody, but
in a correctional center thatyour project isn't able to
visit, how can they get helpfrom your service?
So we go into the correctionalfacilities, and we give
(16:50):
community legal education andthen that's how we pick up our
clients. And then in othertimes, we can pick up clients?
If they is it? Is it right,though? They call in Denise?
Yep. So we are, Legal Aidgenerally is hash #2 on the
prisoner, CADL phone. And theycan ring through and sort of ask
(17:12):
for the Aboriginal Women LeavingCustody Service or just you
know, the Aboriginal Civil LawService and it'll either make
its way to us or to theprisoners civil service, who
will then send us the referral.Alternatively, they can speak to
their services and programsoffice or their SAPPO, who can
send us a referral. So a lot ofour referrals will come through
(17:34):
via SAPPOs who have access toour referral form, as well. And
yeah, I think that's those arethe three main ways; us in
person through our CLE, selfreferral through their CADL
phone, and then through theirSAPPOs. Okay,
And they can be anywhere withinNew South Wales and still access
(17:56):
advice from the service.
That's correct. Yeah.
Often there are community andsupport workers that might be
working with these clients, whenthey're not in custody. Would
you have any tips for communityand support workers who might be
helping these clients?
(18:17):
For when they're not in custody?
Yes, I guess or if there iscontinuity of support, is there
anything they can do that mightassist you to help? Are there
things that they could be doingbefore a person enters into
custody that might make adifference?
Yeah, no, absolutely. Like inthe space of housing, I think
(18:41):
the biggest help is to maintaincommunication with the housing
provider. Because at the veryleast, if they then determine to
do things like trying to pushfor termination, or
relinquishment, or anything thatis adverse to the client's
housing than they have awarenessof it and they can then seek
(19:02):
legal advice and legal support.
One of the things I think thatwe've realized through our
consultations and through justour engagement with other
support services is that peopledon't always know that housing
is a legal issue or at least,experiencing barriers to housing
and barriers to maintaininghousing is a legal issue that
Legal Aid generally can assistwith. And so, if it's a
(19:24):
difficult situation the clientis looking at, they might lose
their house, the client'sexperiencing issues with you
know, Client Service Officer aretrying to terminate them or
they're behind on rent and theymight be terminated or they've
got unauthorised occupants orthere are issues, essentially
with the tenancy and they're notsure what to do about it, refer
the client to Legal Aid, getsome help. And worst case
(19:46):
scenario, if it's not somethingthat we can help you with will
direct you to a tenancy servicethat can. But I think the
biggest thing is to recognizethat housing is a legal issue
that they can get support with.
Another thing that is reallyhelpful for us in terms of when
were assisting a client isgetting access to documents like
ID can be tricky for clients incustody. And so if a support
(20:09):
worker is able to facilitatethat, that's always really
helpful and can really savetime, as well as letters of
support. So if we're trying tomake representations to housing
about the client's pastexperiences of homelessness, for
example, or drug and alcoholaddiction, or any other sort of
hardship, having a letter ofsupport from a caseworker or
from a service, that's helpedthe client in the past can be
(20:31):
really powerful. And it's areally great way of humanizing
the client and their experiencesand their vulnerability to
housing in a way that can makethem more willing to extend an
absence and more willing toapply some discretion.
And that's the same even withtheir criminal, the criminal
matters often if judges can getsome understanding about what
(20:53):
life is actually like for theclient. I think those support
workers play a really big rolein providing some context to the
client, to their history and totheir lives. And then I think
the final thing that I wouldsay, I think all this listeners
would, in our team would say is,often when our clients are
released from custody, one ofthe things we struggle with is
maintaining contact. And sowhere there is a support worker,
(21:16):
having them remain linked inwith solicitors that are helping
the client is so vital and soimportant, because it means that
we can continue assisting theclient with their legal issue.
So even if the client doesn'thave stable housing or a stable
phone number, being able toaccess the client through the
support worker can be reallyimportant and quite helpful. So
yeah, the existence of a supportworker support service can be
(21:39):
vital to that continuity ofservice and to ensuring that the
client receives the help thatthey were, they initially sought
from Legal Aid.
Did you have anything you'd liketo add to that Lowanna?
I guess I just wanted to. Yeah,like support workers are just so
essential in us being able toachieve any, like positive
(21:59):
outcome. It's just veryimportant to stay in touch
because it is, it's a huge, hugeproblem is trying to stay in
contact, I would say, like, Iprobably face that issue, like
60% of the time, maybe whatabout you Denise? Like,
ya No, it's difficult.
Very important to have likecaseworkers or any kind of
(22:24):
support service.
And I think it also means thatour service can be like, again,
going back to that holisticprovision of support. Obviously,
we can do the legal elements ofthe issue, but issues are rarely
ever just legal in nature. And Ithink that having a support
(22:44):
worker there connected to theclient means that if we pick up
anything else, the client needswe can sort of communicate that
to the support worker.
So would either of you like tocomment on whether you've
observed any systemic issues,and you have raised some
already, that contribute to thehomelessness experienced by your
(23:06):
clients?
Yes, we have. And we talk aboutit, you know, in the hallways,
but it's, it's tricky to addressin the everyday of our role. I
think we see the same storiesreplayed so often that it's hard
not to see it. And we haveclients telling us that they are
(23:27):
unfairly treated, for example,by the police, because they're
Aboriginal. You know, and wehave examples of clients being
arrested in situations wherethey very likely wouldn't have
been if they weren't Aboriginal,like situations that seem really
innocuous. And so I think itwould be wrong not to
acknowledge the role of racism,the role of a lack of proper
(23:50):
training in how police deal withdomestic violence in the
community. We see many womenmisidentified as the
perpetrators of domesticviolence, and then they'll give
us instructions that actuallytheir long term victims of
violence themselves.
We see the role of, you know,socio economic disadvantage
impact our clients, just nothaving money like poverty, and
(24:13):
what it can drive our clientsto. It's really frustrating to
be able to, to hear this and to,particularly to be a civil
lawyer where we're not engagedwith the criminal matter but we
can see that really, even if thecriminal matter's dealt with the
issue was so much bigger thanjust "Oh, our clients stole $200
worth of groceries from thelocal supermarket." Like it's an
(24:36):
issue relating tointergenerational trauma and
racism and racist policies andlegislation and it's quite
overwhelming. So often we feellike even if we achieve the
things that we are trying toachieve within our roles that we
need broader systemic change andreform in order to really
realize a change in our clients'experiences of these social
(24:59):
issues. But absolutely there aresystemic issues at play. It's
hard to work within the system,whilst at very many points,
trying to challenge the system.I think that's difficult for us
and our solicitors because ourclients tell us their reality
and there's only so much we cando within that within our roles.
(25:20):
Yeah and I think as well as likethe fact that we are a
government organization fundedby the government. I don't know,
I feel like that kind of makesthings a bit tricky. But also, a
lot of our clients don't trustthe government. And it's
completely understandable. Likewhy would you, considering the
(25:43):
predicaments that they are in?
Yeah, absolutely. And whenyou've had a lifetime of
negative interaction withgovernment, in its various
forms, in different departments,then it's hard to have any hope
for a positive outcome whenyou're interacting with
(26:03):
government yet again.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyhad clients who have, they just
don't want any advice, like,it's just had to, had to close
their files, because, yeah, theyjust don't, they don't trust
don't trust us.
Yeah, that's a great pity, isn'tit? But completely
understandable from theirperspective, as well. Do either
(26:27):
of you have a good news storythat you could share about
clients that you've been able tosuccessfully assist with housing
or with other legal issues?
So I had a client who had had along history of incarceration,
and institutionalization. Hadbeen in and out of custody since
(26:47):
she was quite young. And she hadgone through some counseling and
had a period of actually notbeing in custody and being
supported by support servicesand being linked in with drug
and alcohol support, and wasdoing quite well. And then,
unfortunately, she had anexperience experience of
(27:10):
violence. And that sort of ledto something else. And then she
ended up in custody,essentially. And she was a
current tenant of a housingproperty. And she was just so
terrified that after all, herhard work of trying to get her
life back together, that she wasgoing to lose her housing. And
that was the one thing that shesaid, was keeping everything
(27:32):
else together. You know, likeshe had a property near where
her support services were, shewas linked in to the right
people, to the right services.You know, she was engaged in
education. And so there was areal fear that if she lost her
housing, that the rest of herlife will sort of follow soon
and would be quite disrupted.
(27:53):
And so we were able tosuccessfully negotiate with
housing to extend her absenceand that provided her enough
time then for her criminalmatter to develop. And then she
ended up getting bail. And Iremember when we gave her that
outcome, that housing improvedan extension. And she said to
me, like "You have quiteliterally, like, saved my life."
(28:15):
And it's something that I thinkabout from time to time, because
it really captures I think thesignificance that many people
feel about housing, thesignificance of housing and the
role of housing in their lives.I think that when we're able to
do our job, and we succeed, itis a difference between someone
having somewhere to return toafter a difficult time in
(28:37):
custody. Someone feeling likethey've got ground to then move
forward and progress their lifeand not feel like they have to
go backwards, post release. Andit can really be the saving
grace for a lot of people. Soyeah, and I really absolutely
love our team. I love what wedo. And I think I love what we
can do for the community.
Such important work. Lowanna,did you have anything you wanted
(28:58):
to share?
I have one. Basically, she wasin custody, and she was at risk
of losing her tenancy. And shealso had children. She didn't
have custody of her children,but she had her home set up and
all that so she couldpotentially regain custody. So
(29:18):
she was like in the process ofdoing that. She was in a lot of
distress, like obviously, as youwould be if you're going to lose
your home. But anyway, I gotonto housing. They really wanted
her to relinquish andrelinquishment is just such a
scary word for our clients. Itdoesn't sound like a nice word
anyway, just in general. Butyes, it's very scary. And I told
(29:44):
her about it. She was likeunderstandably, did not want to
relinquish it.
And then I ended up speaking toher criminal lawyer, and I found
out that she had gone back intocustody because she had she
hadn't reported and she waspregnant at the time. So there
(30:05):
could be various reasons as towhy she didn't report. And yeah,
just I don't know about it, itjust doesn't sound right to me.
But anyway, they ended up, I'mnot really sure how the whole
criminal thing goes but I spoketo her criminal solicitor. They
basically said, you know, shecould be released, and then I
(30:27):
went and negotiated with housingto try and extend the absence a
bit. Let them know that it'squite possible she'll be
released. And she ended up beingable to retain her housing,
because she ended up gettingreleased early.
I think at first, she wasactually meant to go away for
nine months. But yeah, she endedup getting released. And yeah,
(30:50):
she was able to keep her housingthrough me, you know, speaking
to the criminal lawyer, and thenbeing able to, for them to tell
me that information, then Icould pass that on to housing
and just negotiate with them.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, youhelping her to retain her
housing is an amazing result.But that's not the only outcome
(31:13):
of what you were able to do. Imean, you've helped her create a
situation where other things,other positive things can happen
in her life that that shewouldn't have been able to
access if she hadn't been ableto retain the housing.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I hopethat, um, there has been a
little bit more positivity inher life. You know, since all of
(31:33):
that happened, it would havebeen just so distressing. Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, they say, once there'sstable housing, someone can
really start to focus on theother, the other aspects of
their life. It's sort of likeaddressing Maslow's hierarchy,
right? You can start to look atthings like your health, your
education, employment, access tosupport services. All of those
(31:57):
things make sense when you'vegot somewhere to sleep, right?
Like, how are you going to aCentrelink appointment or even
trying to apply for a job if youhave nowhere to sleep at night.
It's really common sense, isn'tit? Like you need a roof over
your head to pretty much doanything.
And how many clients have we hadsay to us, like the prison ends
(32:21):
up being the place where theyfeel the safest because they
have somewhere to stay? Yeah,yeah. And like what a failing?
What a failing of society thatthat's, that's the reality of
vulnerable people in ourcommunity that they are ending
up in custody, because that'swhere they have access to stable
I think in an earlierconversation we talked about,
housing.
(32:42):
what's one thing that we wouldrecommend to address some of
these issues that we'vediscussed. And I think one thing
that seems very clear to me, inthe work that we do is ensuring
that there are services likethis that have ongoing stable
funding so that they cancontinue to do the work. This
really important work. I thinkthere needs to be people out
(33:04):
there, whose purpose is, is toaddress these imbalances and
these social issues. Even betterif the funding is sitting with
Aboriginal community controlledorganizations, you know, who can
go into communities or go into acorrectional centers and provide
the support. But I think we needstability of services and we
need ongoing funding. So thatservices can plan long term and
(33:27):
can really look at how tosupport women throughout the
cycle of their experiences.
Thank you. Yes, perhaps I didn'task that question. I think the
question I've asked previouslywas, if you could ask government
for something to alleviatehomelessness, what would it be?
Funding.
(33:47):
Yeah, give us some ongoingstable funding so we can really.
I mean, ideally, we are, we havean in present, in person
presence in every CorrectionalCenter across the state. And
then we can really help people,Aboriginal women, specifically,
to understand that their rightsand understand the, I guess
(34:10):
what, what they can do withtheir housing, so that they can
advocate for themselves in thelong run. That would be ideal,
trying to reduce homelessnessacross the state would be
brilliant. But as it is, wedon't have the funding or the
capacity for that and so we'reonly in two correctional centers
across the state. But that wouldbe, that's a dream.
(34:33):
Yeah, you also mentioned lasttime that the closing the gap
targets 10 and 11 are to reduceoverrepresentation of Aboriginal
people in custody, so I supposegovernment making that a genuine
priority and honouring thattarget would go some way to
(34:56):
addressing the issue as well.
I think another thing that thatone of you said to me last time
that really resonated with metoo was that we need to approach
housing with an understandingthat it is a basic human right.
Everyone has the right to anadequate standard of living,
including adequate food, waterand housing. And especially
(35:20):
Australia is such a wealthycountry. Like, I don't
understand how we have homelesspeople, people who aren't
housed. Yeah.
I think we talked aboutperspectives and if we can shift
our perspective of socialhousing from being this, nice to
(35:41):
have to "Actually this isabsolutely something that
everyone should have access to,regardless of their social
standing", then we would look atthe problems that arise very
differently. It's a basic humanright, like you were saying,
Lowanna, that it's somethingthat should be widespread and
not debatable, not based onyour, you know, how good you are
(36:05):
in society, or what your socialstanding is in society, or what
family you come from, or whatstrategic what benefits or
advantages you've had, basedfrom history. It should just be
"Oh, you're human, you shouldhave access to housing." And
then I think if we saw it asthat basic human right, then a
lot of the problems that thencome from it, we would approach
very differently. Yeah, we needa societal shift.
(36:29):
Yeah and that takes a lot ofeffort, societal shifts.
Well, thank you both foragreeing to come on the podcast
and thank you for your timetoday.
Thank you.
Thanks Bridget. It's been a it'sbeen a pleasure. Great to, to
(36:50):
talk about the issues thatreally matter and, and to do a
little bit of work to give somevoice to the experiences of our
clients I think is alwaysbeneficial and worthwhile.
That's it for this episode. Mygrateful thanks to Lawanna and
Denise for sharing informationabout their service and the
(37:12):
women they work with.
This is episode seven and thefinal episode in our podcast
series exploring homelessness inAustralia. In this episode, I
speak with staff from legalaids, Aboriginal women leaving
custody project about legalissues experienced by Aboriginal
women in custody and preparingto leave custody. Some of the
(00:27):
main issues these womenexperience relate to instability
of housing and domestic andfamily violence. I acknowledge
the traditional owners of theunseeded lands on which this
podcast episode was recorded andpay my respect to their care of
the land and to their elderspast, present and emerging.
(00:51):
Lowanna and Denise, thank youfor joining me on the podcast
today. Would you please tell usabout the Aboriginal Women
Leaving Custody Project and alittle bit about your roles
within that project?
Absolutely. So the AboriginalWomen Leaving Custody Project
originally began as a pilotcollaboration between Legal Aid,
(01:16):
DCJ, Housing and CorrectiveServices. And the purpose of the
service of the pilot at thattime was to try and address the
issue of homelessness andhousing instability for
Aboriginal women, as they'repreparing to be released from
custody. What it looks like nowis a statewide service to
(01:39):
support all Aboriginal womenacross New South Wales with
civil law issues, although thefocus still is housing and
homelessness. We have an inperson presence at Silverwater
Correctional Center and we'verecently expanded to mid north
coast Correctional Center andwe're looking to expand as well
to Dillwyina correctionalcenter. But that's still in the
(02:01):
And the way that the serviceruns essentially is once a month
My role, I am a senior solicitorwithin the team and so I managed
works.
we go into these correctionalcenters, we do community legal
the Silverwater outreach itselfas well as support our Grade
education, on a number ofdifferent topics, focusing
mostly on housing, fines victimsof violence and at times, we'll
Five, which might mean nothingto those of you listening, but
throw in social security andissues with Centrelink. And
we'll have a really informalconversation with the people in
(02:23):
custody who were present. Andthey'll engage in some sort of
like painting exercise, whilstwe give them information about
those legal issues. And then atthe end of that CLE, we then do
law checkups, which is our wayof collecting information about
legal issues that they might beexperiencing, and we collect
their details to thensubsequently do AVLs and provide
(02:45):
advice and ongoing legalassistance. And so we do that at
Silverwater Correctional Centerand Mid North Coast Correctional
Center, but we do acceptreferrals across the state.
(03:09):
essentially, is the person, thesenior solicitor managing the
whole service, supporting themwith the expansion. And then
from time to time going along toCLEs myself and running them.
I'll now past to Lowanna.
I think Denise explained thatsuper, super well. So I am a
solicitor and the AWLC team. Myrole is to give advice and help
(03:34):
with, assist through MAs andELAs and I go and do the
outreach at Silverwater.
Thanks, Lowanna. When you sayMA's and ELA's, I imagine our
audience is not going tonecessarily know what that
means. Do you want to justexpand on the sort of help that
you provide?
So basically, MAs are minorassistance, and ELAs are
(03:59):
extended legal assistance.
So that means a bit moreextended work, depending on on
the matter and help the clientneeds.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Lowanna is being a bithumble, I think. She does
provide a lot of assistance andessentially what that looks like
on the ground is she's the onethat's running the matter,
(04:20):
that's supporting the client tokeep hold of their housing.
Where required, she does thenegotiations with, you know, the
housing provider, or she'smaking sure that the client has
access to particular referrals,if required, to support their
rehabilitation. And sort of allthe things that need to be done
to make sure the client issupported, so that the civil
(04:42):
issue can be addressed, Lowannais doing and, and does for
whoever gets referred to her. Soit's quite extensive the support
that we provide.
Thank you. I'm interested tohear the types of legal issues
that the women that you workwith, ask for help with?
I think like a lot of the typesof issues that we assist with
(05:07):
are to do with housing. Yeah,housing, victims compensation
fines. If there's issues withCorrective Services, like
complaints.
Yeah, that's exactly right. Sothe main legal issue, I'd say,
that we see relate to housing,it might look a little bit
different depending on theclient. We have clients who are
(05:29):
current tenants of socialhousing properties often when
they go into custody. And so wewill support them with holding
on to their property wherepossible, including assisting
them to apply for an extensionof absence from their property.
That might look like negotiatingwith the housing provider, which
often will be DCJ housing. Andthat sort of that early
(05:53):
intervention work while we'redoing that negotiation to make
sure that the client at leasthas some clarity about how much
longer or the nature of theircriminal matter before they
either decide to relinquishtheir property or to fight the
process. At its worst, it lookslike us defending NCAT tribunal
termination proceedings, wherewe're trying to buy the clients
(06:17):
some time so that they know moreabout what's happening. So
ultimately, a lot of our clientsare on remand and have no real
clarity about how much longerthey're going to be in custody.
And so often our work will be,you know, trying to advocate for
them with housing, whilst theircriminal lawyers try to get some
clarity about what's going on.
(06:39):
In other times, the housingissue looks like our clients not
having any access to housing atall. So not being on the housing
list or being barred from beingon the housing list because of
their a former classificationthey've been given, and so
running appeals to sort of havethat reviewed and addressed with
(06:59):
the hopes that upon release,they can then get onto that list
and then have a pathway toaccessing housing.
It often can also look likereactivating old applications
that have been closederroneously, so that eventually
the client has less of a barrierto accessing housing, because I
think a lot of us know that,even really, once you're on the
list, you're still waiting, youcan still wait up to and over 10
(07:22):
years. So when it comes tohousing and sort of looking at
addressing the barriers that ourclients might be experiencing,
to either keeping their housingor to accessing housing.
As Lowanna said, we also do lotsof work with victims of domestic
violence. And that can look likeanything from assisting them to
(07:43):
access counselling, or toapplying for compensation,
whether that's a recognitionpayment, or, you know, immediate
needs payment or some other sortof payment to support their
rehabilitation upon release.Often, that money is used to
help set them up and sort ofavoid further violence where,
(08:04):
where possible.
We also support clients withissues they have in custody
relating to accessing adequatehealth care. And I think
prisoners health is another oneof our priorities. But really,
at the moment, I'd say thathousing has always been the
biggest focus for us because of,we understand that I think when
(08:26):
it comes to Aboriginal women incustody, a lot of the reasons
for recidivism and a lot of thereasons that people end up back
in custody is because ofunstable housing and not having
somewhere safe to sleep,. Itmeans there's a lot of a lot of
flow on effects that happen fromthat, including, you know,
inability to access supportservices and maintain contact
with them and, and really engagein that rehabilitation process.
(08:48):
So we see that if we can reallyaddress that housing issue once
we've got them in custody, andwe can get their instructions
and their goals, and we canreally do a lot to help support
them following their release.
Thank you. I think in a previousdiscussion, we had you also
mentioned assisting clients withclassification issues, because
(09:13):
they may not be able to accessprograms within prison.
That's right. Yeah. So there area number of prison specific
issues that we also assistclients with, including, you
know, if a client if a clientbelieves that they've been
inappropriately classified andtherefore can't access programs,
we might do a little bit ofminor assistance there to help
(09:37):
request a review of of thatclassification. Because
essentially, often for clientson remand, and then for other
clients, depending on theclassification, they don't have
access to particular programs,which means that the period of
time that they're in custodycan't be used to progress
anything or to engage inprograms and that can be quite
(09:59):
difficult for them in additionto obviously, their time in
custody. At times, that's someof the work that we'll do as
well.
You've both mentioned womenexperiencing domestic and family
violence as well. Do you seethat as a factor that may be one
of the causes of homelessnessthat these clients experience or
(10:21):
perhaps one of the causes of anadverse classification they may
have in relation to theirtenancy?
That's a really interestingquestion Bridget. I think
actually, it's the reverse. Ithink that homelessness often
will lead to experiences ofdomestic violence, or
homelessness, or the risk ofhomelessness can sometimes
(10:42):
perpetuate the experience ofdomestic violence. Anecdotally,
we've had so many clients say tous, "Like I just had nowhere
else to go." So they've goneback to partners that they
haven't felt safe with, becauseit's a choice between
experiencing violence orsleeping on the street. And so I
think the lack of sustainableand stable housing means that a
lot of people are having to makereally difficult choices, which
(11:05):
then have flow on consequences,in addition to obviously,
experiences of harm andviolence, including loss of
children and loss of care.Because of, you know, social
situations like that. So I thinkhousing is that social issue
that if we can get right willaddress a lot of these other
social issues that we seeinfluencing women into, I guess,
(11:28):
entering into custody or beingarrested or having those sorts
of experiences.
You also have mentioned, workingwith solicitors in other parts
of legal aid. I guess morespecifically, criminal
solicitors. You work inconjunction with them, I guess,
because you have a sharedclient?
Yeah, I think that's one of thebenefits of our service. I had a
(11:52):
client that was referred to usthrough another legal aid
department. It was the MentalHealth Advocacy Service, because
a client had quite significantmental health issues, and she
was in custody. And when it cameto us or our service, DCJ, were
threatening termination becausethey had received information
(12:12):
from Corrective Services thatthe client's earliest possible
release date was in 2026. And soat that point, they were sending
letters of relinquishment to theclient, the clients support
workers in custody to say, "Hey,please have the client sign this
relinquishment. They can't holdon to their tenancy, they're
gonna be away for longer thansix months. You know, 2026 is
(12:33):
too far. Nothing we can do."And so when it came to our
service, I think one of thegreat things about our services
that we were able to reach outto the client's criminal lawyer
to get an understanding of well,actually what is happening here?
Like, "Is there a court datecoming up? And what is the
likelihood of release on thiscourt date? And at what stage is
(12:53):
the client at so we can reallygive the client some clear
advice on whether or not torelinquish their property or not
to relinquish their property.Because what you don't want for
your client is to let go of aproperty they've worked so hard
to get only to be released acouple of months later into
homelessness and thensubsequently end up back in
prison. Because, homelessnesshas a pretty direct route,
(13:14):
really back to recidivism, Ithink the stats really support
that.
And so what we ended up doingwith this client is that reached
out to the criminal lawyer, thecriminal lawyer actually had a
hearing coming up in the weeksfollowing. We drafted a letter
of support, explain the client'shousing situation and how
critical it was that the clientbe released on bail, I think it
(13:34):
was. And the criminal lawyer hadexplained that actually, they
had had a hearing earlier, butbecause there was no clarity
about the client's housing andthe client's support services,
or any of the clients, yeah,support services that they
didn't really think the clientcould be released on to bail.
And so by us, contacting themand reaching out and being able
to provide that clarity and thatinsight into their housing, they
(13:57):
were able to then put thatbefore the judge and say, like,
"This is what's happening, thisis the risk. And this is why
it's important the client getbail." And as a consequence of
that, and I'm sure other thingsthat the criminal lawyer did,
I'm not taking all the credit.
But as a consequence of, ofthat, the client was released,
and were able to then hold on totheir housing. And so I think
(14:18):
our ability to work with otherlegal age teams is one of the
strengths of Legal Aidgenerally, and one of the one of
the strengths of our service andI'm really glad that we get to
do that. And we do that a loteven in like a facilitating
family law referrals, forexample, where our clients say,
"You know, if I don't keep myhouse, I won't get access to my
(14:40):
children." And so being able toget letters of support, for
example from the family lawyer,so we can make those
representations to DCJ asfurther reasons of, you know,
extending and absence fromproperty for example, means that
we're really able to workholistically. I mean, we can
really see the client'sexperience as a whole and not
just as you know, a civil lawissue here and a criminal law
issue here and a family lawissue here.
(15:02):
Yeah, I think, I think Legal Aidas an organization has moved
more and more towards providingwraparound services wherever we
can, because the benefits to theclients and I guess to the
justice system as well, inremoving clients from the
justice system are pretty clear.
(15:25):
Yeah, I agree Bridget.
You also mentioned in relationto that client, that the client
was experiencing mental healthissues. And I guess, if they
were able to be released andretain their housing, it would
mean that if they were alreadyreceiving support and help with
their mental health issues, itwould give them continuity of
(15:47):
care instead of having to tryand access care within the
correctional system.
That's right. And I thinkthat's, that's often part of the
submissions that we make, thatclients are often better off in
community where they have accessto their support systems, and
(16:08):
that it's less expensiveoverall, really, the system or
for government if clients aren'tin custody, and the outcomes
that we can achieve are always abetter and can be longer term,
essentially. Yeah, no, Icompletely agree with that
statement Bridget.
Lowanna you mentioned that youwere on a telephone advice
(16:29):
roster this morning. So how cansomeone who is in custody, but
in a correctional center thatyour project isn't able to
visit, how can they get helpfrom your service?
So we go into the correctionalfacilities, and we give
(16:50):
community legal education andthen that's how we pick up our
clients. And then in othertimes, we can pick up clients?
If they is it? Is it right,though? They call in Denise?
Yep. So we are, Legal Aidgenerally is hash #2 on the
prisoner, CADL phone. And theycan ring through and sort of ask
(17:12):
for the Aboriginal Women LeavingCustody Service or just you
know, the Aboriginal Civil LawService and it'll either make
its way to us or to theprisoners civil service, who
will then send us the referral.Alternatively, they can speak to
their services and programsoffice or their SAPPO, who can
send us a referral. So a lot ofour referrals will come through
(17:34):
via SAPPOs who have access toour referral form, as well. And
yeah, I think that's those arethe three main ways; us in
person through our CLE, selfreferral through their CADL
phone, and then through theirSAPPOs. Okay,
And they can be anywhere withinNew South Wales and still access
(17:56):
advice from the service.
That's correct. Yeah.
Often there are community andsupport workers that might be
working with these clients, whenthey're not in custody. Would
you have any tips for communityand support workers who might be
helping these clients?
(18:17):
For when they're not in custody?
Yes, I guess or if there iscontinuity of support, is there
anything they can do that mightassist you to help? Are there
things that they could be doingbefore a person enters into
custody that might make adifference?
Yeah, no, absolutely. Like inthe space of housing, I think
(18:41):
the biggest help is to maintaincommunication with the housing
provider. Because at the veryleast, if they then determine to
do things like trying to pushfor termination, or
relinquishment, or anything thatis adverse to the client's
housing than they have awarenessof it and they can then seek
(19:02):
legal advice and legal support.
One of the things I think thatwe've realized through our
consultations and through justour engagement with other
support services is that peopledon't always know that housing
is a legal issue or at least,experiencing barriers to housing
and barriers to maintaininghousing is a legal issue that
Legal Aid generally can assistwith. And so, if it's a
(19:24):
difficult situation the clientis looking at, they might lose
their house, the client'sexperiencing issues with you
know, Client Service Officer aretrying to terminate them or
they're behind on rent and theymight be terminated or they've
got unauthorised occupants orthere are issues, essentially
with the tenancy and they're notsure what to do about it, refer
the client to Legal Aid, getsome help. And worst case
(19:46):
scenario, if it's not somethingthat we can help you with will
direct you to a tenancy servicethat can. But I think the
biggest thing is to recognizethat housing is a legal issue
that they can get support with.
Another thing that is reallyhelpful for us in terms of when
were assisting a client isgetting access to documents like
ID can be tricky for clients incustody. And so if a support
(20:09):
worker is able to facilitatethat, that's always really
helpful and can really savetime, as well as letters of
support. So if we're trying tomake representations to housing
about the client's pastexperiences of homelessness, for
example, or drug and alcoholaddiction, or any other sort of
hardship, having a letter ofsupport from a caseworker or
from a service, that's helpedthe client in the past can be
(20:31):
really powerful. And it's areally great way of humanizing
the client and their experiencesand their vulnerability to
housing in a way that can makethem more willing to extend an
absence and more willing toapply some discretion.
And that's the same even withtheir criminal, the criminal
matters often if judges can getsome understanding about what
(20:53):
life is actually like for theclient. I think those support
workers play a really big rolein providing some context to the
client, to their history and totheir lives. And then I think
the final thing that I wouldsay, I think all this listeners
would, in our team would say is,often when our clients are
released from custody, one ofthe things we struggle with is
maintaining contact. And sowhere there is a support worker,
(21:16):
having them remain linked inwith solicitors that are helping
the client is so vital and soimportant, because it means that
we can continue assisting theclient with their legal issue.
So even if the client doesn'thave stable housing or a stable
phone number, being able toaccess the client through the
support worker can be reallyimportant and quite helpful. So
yeah, the existence of a supportworker support service can be
(21:39):
vital to that continuity ofservice and to ensuring that the
client receives the help thatthey were, they initially sought
from Legal Aid.
Did you have anything you'd liketo add to that Lowanna?
I guess I just wanted to. Yeah,like support workers are just so
essential in us being able toachieve any, like positive
(21:59):
outcome. It's just veryimportant to stay in touch
because it is, it's a huge, hugeproblem is trying to stay in
contact, I would say, like, Iprobably face that issue, like
60% of the time, maybe whatabout you Denise? Like,
ya No, it's difficult.
Very important to have likecaseworkers or any kind of
(22:24):
support service.
And I think it also means thatour service can be like, again,
going back to that holisticprovision of support. Obviously,
we can do the legal elements ofthe issue, but issues are rarely
ever just legal in nature. And Ithink that having a support
(22:44):
worker there connected to theclient means that if we pick up
anything else, the client needswe can sort of communicate that
to the support worker.
So would either of you like tocomment on whether you've
observed any systemic issues,and you have raised some
already, that contribute to thehomelessness experienced by your
(23:06):
clients?
Yes, we have. And we talk aboutit, you know, in the hallways,
but it's, it's tricky to addressin the everyday of our role. I
think we see the same storiesreplayed so often that it's hard
not to see it. And we haveclients telling us that they are
(23:27):
unfairly treated, for example,by the police, because they're
Aboriginal. You know, and wehave examples of clients being
arrested in situations wherethey very likely wouldn't have
been if they weren't Aboriginal,like situations that seem really
innocuous. And so I think itwould be wrong not to
acknowledge the role of racism,the role of a lack of proper
(23:50):
training in how police deal withdomestic violence in the
community. We see many womenmisidentified as the
perpetrators of domesticviolence, and then they'll give
us instructions that actuallytheir long term victims of
violence themselves.
We see the role of, you know,socio economic disadvantage
impact our clients, just nothaving money like poverty, and
(24:13):
what it can drive our clientsto. It's really frustrating to
be able to, to hear this and to,particularly to be a civil
lawyer where we're not engagedwith the criminal matter but we
can see that really, even if thecriminal matter's dealt with the
issue was so much bigger thanjust "Oh, our clients stole $200
worth of groceries from thelocal supermarket." Like it's an
(24:36):
issue relating tointergenerational trauma and
racism and racist policies andlegislation and it's quite
overwhelming. So often we feellike even if we achieve the
things that we are trying toachieve within our roles that we
need broader systemic change andreform in order to really
realize a change in our clients'experiences of these social
(24:59):
issues. But absolutely there aresystemic issues at play. It's
hard to work within the system,whilst at very many points,
trying to challenge the system.I think that's difficult for us
and our solicitors because ourclients tell us their reality
and there's only so much we cando within that within our roles.
(25:20):
Yeah and I think as well as likethe fact that we are a
government organization fundedby the government. I don't know,
I feel like that kind of makesthings a bit tricky. But also, a
lot of our clients don't trustthe government. And it's
completely understandable. Likewhy would you, considering the
(25:43):
predicaments that they are in?
Yeah, absolutely. And whenyou've had a lifetime of
negative interaction withgovernment, in its various
forms, in different departments,then it's hard to have any hope
for a positive outcome whenyou're interacting with
(26:03):
government yet again.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyhad clients who have, they just
don't want any advice, like,it's just had to, had to close
their files, because, yeah, theyjust don't, they don't trust
don't trust us.
Yeah, that's a great pity, isn'tit? But completely
understandable from theirperspective, as well. Do either
(26:27):
of you have a good news storythat you could share about
clients that you've been able tosuccessfully assist with housing
or with other legal issues?
So I had a client who had had along history of incarceration,
and institutionalization. Hadbeen in and out of custody since
(26:47):
she was quite young. And she hadgone through some counseling and
had a period of actually notbeing in custody and being
supported by support servicesand being linked in with drug
and alcohol support, and wasdoing quite well. And then,
unfortunately, she had anexperience experience of
(27:10):
violence. And that sort of ledto something else. And then she
ended up in custody,essentially. And she was a
current tenant of a housingproperty. And she was just so
terrified that after all, herhard work of trying to get her
life back together, that she wasgoing to lose her housing. And
that was the one thing that shesaid, was keeping everything
(27:32):
else together. You know, likeshe had a property near where
her support services were, shewas linked in to the right
people, to the right services.You know, she was engaged in
education. And so there was areal fear that if she lost her
housing, that the rest of herlife will sort of follow soon
and would be quite disrupted.
(27:53):
And so we were able tosuccessfully negotiate with
housing to extend her absenceand that provided her enough
time then for her criminalmatter to develop. And then she
ended up getting bail. And Iremember when we gave her that
outcome, that housing improvedan extension. And she said to
me, like "You have quiteliterally, like, saved my life."
(28:15):
And it's something that I thinkabout from time to time, because
it really captures I think thesignificance that many people
feel about housing, thesignificance of housing and the
role of housing in their lives.I think that when we're able to
do our job, and we succeed, itis a difference between someone
having somewhere to return toafter a difficult time in
(28:37):
custody. Someone feeling likethey've got ground to then move
forward and progress their lifeand not feel like they have to
go backwards, post release. Andit can really be the saving
grace for a lot of people. Soyeah, and I really absolutely
love our team. I love what wedo. And I think I love what we
can do for the community.
Such important work. Lowanna,did you have anything you wanted
(28:58):
to share?
I have one. Basically, she wasin custody, and she was at risk
of losing her tenancy. And shealso had children. She didn't
have custody of her children,but she had her home set up and
all that so she couldpotentially regain custody. So
(29:18):
she was like in the process ofdoing that. She was in a lot of
distress, like obviously, as youwould be if you're going to lose
your home. But anyway, I gotonto housing. They really wanted
her to relinquish andrelinquishment is just such a
scary word for our clients. Itdoesn't sound like a nice word
anyway, just in general. Butyes, it's very scary. And I told
(29:44):
her about it. She was likeunderstandably, did not want to
relinquish it.
And then I ended up speaking toher criminal lawyer, and I found
out that she had gone back intocustody because she had she
hadn't reported and she waspregnant at the time. So there
(30:05):
could be various reasons as towhy she didn't report. And yeah,
just I don't know about it, itjust doesn't sound right to me.
But anyway, they ended up, I'mnot really sure how the whole
criminal thing goes but I spoketo her criminal solicitor. They
basically said, you know, shecould be released, and then I
(30:27):
went and negotiated with housingto try and extend the absence a
bit. Let them know that it'squite possible she'll be
released. And she ended up beingable to retain her housing,
because she ended up gettingreleased early.
I think at first, she wasactually meant to go away for
nine months. But yeah, she endedup getting released. And yeah,
(30:50):
she was able to keep her housingthrough me, you know, speaking
to the criminal lawyer, and thenbeing able to, for them to tell
me that information, then Icould pass that on to housing
and just negotiate with them.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, youhelping her to retain her
housing is an amazing result.But that's not the only outcome
(31:13):
of what you were able to do. Imean, you've helped her create a
situation where other things,other positive things can happen
in her life that that shewouldn't have been able to
access if she hadn't been ableto retain the housing.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I hopethat, um, there has been a
little bit more positivity inher life. You know, since all of
(31:33):
that happened, it would havebeen just so distressing. Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean, they say, once there'sstable housing, someone can
really start to focus on theother, the other aspects of
their life. It's sort of likeaddressing Maslow's hierarchy,
right? You can start to look atthings like your health, your
education, employment, access tosupport services. All of those
(31:57):
things make sense when you'vegot somewhere to sleep, right?
Like, how are you going to aCentrelink appointment or even
trying to apply for a job if youhave nowhere to sleep at night.
It's really common sense, isn'tit? Like you need a roof over
your head to pretty much doanything.
And how many clients have we hadsay to us, like the prison ends
(32:21):
up being the place where theyfeel the safest because they
have somewhere to stay? Yeah,yeah. And like what a failing?
What a failing of society thatthat's, that's the reality of
vulnerable people in ourcommunity that they are ending
up in custody, because that'swhere they have access to stable
I think in an earlierconversation we talked about,
housing.
(32:42):
what's one thing that we wouldrecommend to address some of
these issues that we'vediscussed. And I think one thing
that seems very clear to me, inthe work that we do is ensuring
that there are services likethis that have ongoing stable
funding so that they cancontinue to do the work. This
really important work. I thinkthere needs to be people out
(33:04):
there, whose purpose is, is toaddress these imbalances and
these social issues. Even betterif the funding is sitting with
Aboriginal community controlledorganizations, you know, who can
go into communities or go into acorrectional centers and provide
the support. But I think we needstability of services and we
need ongoing funding. So thatservices can plan long term and
(33:27):
can really look at how tosupport women throughout the
cycle of their experiences.
Thank you. Yes, perhaps I didn'task that question. I think the
question I've asked previouslywas, if you could ask government
for something to alleviatehomelessness, what would it be?
Funding.
(33:47):
Yeah, give us some ongoingstable funding so we can really.
I mean, ideally, we are, we havean in present, in person
presence in every CorrectionalCenter across the state. And
then we can really help people,Aboriginal women, specifically,
to understand that their rightsand understand the, I guess
(34:10):
what, what they can do withtheir housing, so that they can
advocate for themselves in thelong run. That would be ideal,
trying to reduce homelessnessacross the state would be
brilliant. But as it is, wedon't have the funding or the
capacity for that and so we'reonly in two correctional centers
across the state. But that wouldbe, that's a dream.
(34:33):
Yeah, you also mentioned lasttime that the closing the gap
targets 10 and 11 are to reduceoverrepresentation of Aboriginal
people in custody, so I supposegovernment making that a genuine
priority and honouring thattarget would go some way to
(34:56):
addressing the issue as well.
I think another thing that thatone of you said to me last time
that really resonated with metoo was that we need to approach
housing with an understandingthat it is a basic human right.
Everyone has the right to anadequate standard of living,
including adequate food, waterand housing. And especially
(35:20):
Australia is such a wealthycountry. Like, I don't
understand how we have homelesspeople, people who aren't
housed. Yeah.
I think we talked aboutperspectives and if we can shift
our perspective of socialhousing from being this, nice to
(35:41):
have to "Actually this isabsolutely something that
everyone should have access to,regardless of their social
standing", then we would look atthe problems that arise very
differently. It's a basic humanright, like you were saying,
Lowanna, that it's somethingthat should be widespread and
not debatable, not based onyour, you know, how good you are
(36:05):
in society, or what your socialstanding is in society, or what
family you come from, or whatstrategic what benefits or
advantages you've had, basedfrom history. It should just be
"Oh, you're human, you shouldhave access to housing." And
then I think if we saw it asthat basic human right, then a
lot of the problems that thencome from it, we would approach
very differently. Yeah, we needa societal shift.
(36:29):
Yeah and that takes a lot ofeffort, societal shifts.
Well, thank you both foragreeing to come on the podcast
and thank you for your timetoday.
Thank you.
Thanks Bridget. It's been a it'sbeen a pleasure. Great to, to
(36:50):
talk about the issues thatreally matter and, and to do a
little bit of work to give somevoice to the experiences of our
clients I think is alwaysbeneficial and worthwhile.
That's it for this episode. Mygrateful thanks to Lawanna and
Denise for sharing informationabout their service and the
(37:12):
women they work with.
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