July 2, 2024 • 22 mins
What is sexual harassment at work? What is discrimination? How can community workers help clients who have experienced sexual harassment and/or discrimination at work?
In this episode, Yasmine from the Community Legal Education team joins Katja from the Respect at Work Legal Service for a run down of this legal issue and tips for community workers.
Find out more about Respect at Work Legal Service: https://bit.ly/4bo8ybz
Contact our team at LawAccess NSW on 1300 888 529 or via webchat at www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/contact-us
Transcript: https://adobe.ly/3znEAXT
Disclaimer: This podcast is a general guide to the law. You should not rely on it as legal advice. We recommend that you talk to a lawyer about any particular situation. The information is correct at the time of publishing but it may change. For more information, start with our team at LawAccess NSW via webchat at www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au or on 1300 888 529.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yasmine (00:00):
This podcast was produced on the land of the
(00:02):
Gadigal people of the EoraNation. We pay our respect to
Elders past and present.
In 2020, a major report by theAustralian Human Rights
Commission quoted that workplacesexual harassment is "prevalent
and pervasive. It occurs inevery industry, in every
(00:25):
location, and at every level inAustralian workplaces." My name
is Yasmine and this is Law forCommunity Workers. In this
episode I speak with Katja fromthe Respect At Work Legal
Service to find out more aboutthis huge issue and what you can
do as a community worker to helpa client or someone you work
(00:46):
with who may have experiencedsexual harassment or
discrimination at work.
If you are impacted by any ofthe issues discussed in this
episode, you can call the NewSouth Wales Sexual Violence
Helpline on 1-800-422-4017 ornationally, you can call 1800
Respect on 1-800-737-7322.
(01:16):
Thank you so much for joining uson the podcast today Katja.
Could you please introduceyourself and the Respect At Work
Legal Service?
Katja (01:25):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Hello, my name is Katja. I'm a
solicitor with the Respect atWork Legal Service. I'm located
in Lismore. But we are astatewide service with
solicitors that service thewhole of New South Wales, and we
help people with sexualharassment and discrimination
issues that have happened atwork. We give people free and
(01:48):
confidential legal advice andcan help with ongoing matters in
these areas if people need it.Our team was funded after an
inquiry into sexual harassmentin 2020 that found that one in
three people in the workforcehad experienced sexual
harassment in the last fiveyears. The inquiry found that
(02:10):
the people that were havingthese issues were mostly young
people, Aboriginal people andpeople with a disability. And so
they're our priority clientgroups, along with people from
multicultural communities. Butwe can provide advice to people
across New South Wales, we are astatewide service.
Unknown (02:28):
That's
Yasmine (02:28):
That's really, really interesting work. And those
stats sound quite high. Couldyou explain what you mean by
sexual harassment in theworkplace?
Katja (02:40):
Sexual harassment is when someone does or says something
that's sexual in nature, and youdon't like it. And then in the
same situation, someone elsewouldn't like it either. So the
legal definition refers tounwelcome conduct of a sexual
nature. So some examples mightbe sexual jokes, very personal
(03:05):
questions, suggestive commentsor gestures, or being touched in
a way that a person doesn'tlike. Sometimes it's repeated
invitations to go out withsomeone or another sort of
sexual advance. And sadly,sometimes it is sexual assault.
It's important to note that thelegal definition, so unwelcome
(03:28):
sexual conduct, doesn't refer towhat the person who's doing the
harassment meant by it. So ifsomeone at work, makes
inappropriate jokes, and thensays, I'm only joking, or you're
too sensitive, you can still beunlawful sexual harassment, even
if that person didn't meananything by it.
(03:50):
I do quite a bit of education inschools about these topics. And
the students describe feelinguncomfortable about something or
someone. And I think that's agood guide. If something at work
is making you feeluncomfortable, it's worth
getting legal advice to see ifit's unlawful sexual harassment,
and there's something that youcan do about it.
Yasmine (04:12):
Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to point out
about the feeling and when itfeels uncomfortable, and that,
you know, a lot of people areable to identify it as being you
know, it felt feltuncomfortable, but you know, I
tried to address it and it isthat common situation where
people, you know, may turnaround in the workplace and say,
but it was just a joke or makeexcuses for it or, but they
(04:35):
didn't mean this, but theydidn't mean that. So I think
it's really important to notethat that that intention doesn't
doesn't matter, and it's aboutthat feeling. What about
discrimination? Where does thatcome into play? or what would
that look like?
Katja (04:48):
Yeah, so unlawful discrimination is a little bit
more technical in terms ofwhat's not not allowed under the
law. It's probably easiest tothink of two different aspects.
There's a protectedcharacteristic and a protected
area. So we ask why the unfairtreatment was happening - was it
(05:11):
because of a protectedcharacteristic, and where the
unfair treatment happened - wasit in a protected area.
So you're really looking atunfair treatment, why it
happened and where it happened.So protected characteristics,
broadly race, disability, ageand sex. And within sex
(05:33):
discrimination, there are somesort of subcategories like
gender, gender identity, sexualorientation, carer
responsibilities, breastfeedingand pregnancy. So people can't
be treated unfairly, because ofone of those things, their race,
disability, age, or sex. Butit's also only unlawful if it's
(05:57):
happened in a protected area. Sothose are employment, education,
goods and services, which islike when you're in a shop,
accessing public places onpublic transport, accommodation,
which includes sort of rentalproperties, hotels, and then
(06:22):
clubs and associations andsport. So yeah, sort of looking
at why unfair treatmenthappened, and whether it
happened in one of thosecontexts might make it unlawful.
I can give you a few examples,if that's helpful. So if a 16
year old boy is followed aroundKmart by a security guard, and
(06:45):
then you'd argue that's agediscrimination in goods and
services, there's nothing aboutthe boy that suggests he would
be shoplifting other than thefact that he's young. That that
could be arguably agediscrimination. He's been
treated unfairly when he's inthe shop.
Another example is, and thishappens, there's a fight between
(07:10):
two men at a pub, the nonAboriginal man is banned from
the pub for three months. Andthe Aboriginal man is banned
from the pub for six months. Sothis is unfair treatment, they
were both in the fight, theyboth cause a problem. But the
Aboriginal man has been bannedfor longer, you would argue that
that is racial discrimination,and again, in accessing goods
(07:33):
and services when they've beenat the pub.
In a workplace, we see quite alot of discrimination in
relation to pregnancy. Soparticularly casual workers,
either saying they're intendingto get pregnant or in the early
stages of their pregnancy, areoften told there's no more work
for them when they say thatthey're pregnant or trying to
(07:55):
get pregnant. So that is sexdiscrimination in employment is
unlawful.
Yasmine (08:02):
You often do hear a few misconceptions about
discrimination or what peoplemight think discrimination is
and you did say it is quite hasthat bit more of a technical
element? What are somemisconceptions that you might
use that people have aboutdiscrimination or sexual
(08:22):
harassment?
Katja (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, it can be complex. So it is really good to
get advice. If you feelsomething's unfair. I think
there's a feeling that casualsdon't have any rights. I mean,
casuals, there are somelimitations on on what casuals
can bring complaints about butthey are protected by
(08:44):
discrimination laws. And thereare also other employment laws
that do cover them. And so thereoften is remedies. So if you're
a casual and you get toldthere's no more work, if you
think that that is for a reasonthat's unlawful, like sex
discrimination, it's worthgetting advice because you might
have some some options there.The other thing is something
(09:05):
called victimisation. So if youmake a complaint about
discrimination or sexualharassment, and then are treated
badly because of that, that'salso against the law and applies
to all workers. So we have quitea few casual workers after
they've made a sexual harassmentcomplaint, they get less shifts,
and that would be unlawfulvictimisation. So yeah, again,
(09:29):
encouraging people to getadvice. Another misconception is
that in order to do somethingabout sexual harassment, people
need to report it to the police.Sexual harassment can also be a
criminal offence but often it'snot. So there isn't a
requirement to go to the police,and that shouldn't put people
(09:50):
off getting some help about it.So again, the message is for
people to get legal advice, andwe can talk them through their
options but not to not dosomething about sexual
harassment because you don'twant to take it to the police.
Get legal advice, and we'll talkabout it.
Another misconception is thatyou won't be believed because
(10:11):
you don't have witnesses. Imean, most sexual harassment
victims don't have anywitnesses. So please get advice.
We can help you present yourcomplaint clearly, and advise
you anything that you might beable to get to strengthen your
complaint. But don't feel thatit's not worth doing anything
because you haven't got awitness or it didn't happen
(10:33):
under CCTV footage or something.Because they rarely, they rarely
do. And they're stillsuccessful.
And the final misconception isthat people have to go to court
to deal with sexual harassmentor discrimination matters. That
is an end result for thesematters if they can't be
resolved earlier, but it'sactually very rare. There are so
(10:56):
many options before court, andthe vast majority of complaints
can be resolved before having togo there.
So when we talk to someone, wealways ask what outcome
thereafter, what do they wantout of making a complaint, or,
you know, standing up for what'shappened. And then the options
(11:17):
that we discuss with them dependon what they want. So for some
people in an employmentsituation, they want to stay
working. And it's about makingthat safe and having the
harassment or discriminationdealt with, so they can keep
working there. Whereas for otherpeople they've left, but it's
important to them to make surewhat happened to them doesn't
(11:39):
happen to others. So they wantto look at workplace change,
even though they've left. Sothey're just some examples.
There is a range of thingspeople can do, they can do
nothing. They can write or talkto the person who's done the
unlawful discrimination orharassment, or their employer or
the business who's in charge ofthat person. Or they can make a
(12:05):
formal complaint to an outsidebody, which is like Anti
Discrimination New South Wales,or the Human Rights Commission,
or the Fair Work Commission. Soyou can see there's lots of
options, and none of those thatI just mentioned, involve court
yet. So yeah, really good to getlegal advice and talk about what
they can do. And we can supportpeople through that, too. So
(12:25):
that's another message to getacross that you don't have to do
this on your own. There are freelegal services, Legal Aid, the
Aboriginal Legal Service hassome funding to help with these
matters as well. And CommunityLegal Centres also provide
assistance. So you've got lotsof options to help you through
this process.
Yasmine (12:46):
Yeah, fantastic. And a few points that you mentioned
that I didn't even know myself.So really, really important to
know. And what can someoneexpect when they do make that
step to go and get legal advice?What could they expect from the
(13:07):
Respect at Work Legal Service.
Katja (13:09):
So if someone has suffered sexual harassment,
they'll be booked in for anappointment with a solicitor
without having to tell theirstory at that intake stage. They
might want to send through awritten statement, which for the
solicitor will read before theytalk to them. We're really
trying to make it a processwhere the person doesn't have to
(13:30):
tell their story, and is in aposition where they feel
comfortable talking about whathappened before they have to
talk about it. So we allow alonger time for our appointments
to allow people time to feelcomfortable and tell their
story. They can be face to face,they can be by Zoom or by phone.
We can reschedule if someonejust doesn't feel up to it that
(13:52):
day. And there's no pressure tohave to decide what to do that
day. So you can get the advice.Often we will talk through the
options. It's a lot to take in,we might send a diagram that
helps you sort of look at thedifferent options and think
about it. And then we might callback a little a few days later
or a week later just to followup and see how they're feeling
(14:15):
and what they're thinking aboutit. And that's similar for
discrimination. Although atintake, you might be asked a few
more questions about whathappened, because we are the
Respect at Work Legal Serviceand will help with workplace
discrimination. But there areother solicitors in Legal Aid
that help with other types ofdiscrimination. So you might be
asked a little bit more atintake just to make sure you're
(14:37):
booked with the best team withinLegal Aid to help you. And then
once you've had that advice, wecan maybe help write the
complaint and consider whetheryou need further assistance
beyond that.
Yasmine (14:49):
And is it a free service?
Katja (14:51):
Yes. So Legal Aid the advices are free. If you way
down the track hadrepresentation from Legal Aid
for a court matter, there mightbe a contribution payable. But
definitely the advice help withthe complaint, help at mediation
with Anti-Discrimination or theHuman Rights Commission. All
(15:13):
those are free. There are someeligibility requirements, but
it's really just worth gettingadvice. And then that'll be all
talked through with you at thetime.
Yasmine (15:24):
And do you have any success stories where Respect at
Work Legal service has assistedsomeone?
Katja (15:31):
Yeah, look, we've been operating a little bit over a
year. Now, we've had some reallygood outcomes at mediation, with
compensation awards ranging fromseven and a half thousand to
$90,000. But the amount isreally dependent on what has
happened, but mostly how theperson has been affected. So
(15:54):
every case is different, youneed advice about what might be
an appropriate award in yourcase. But what we've noticed is
that often what give givesclients the most satisfaction is
that not the money, but the theother sort of outcomes that they
can negotiate with the otherperson. So at mediation, you can
be a lot more creative in theoutcomes that you want than what
(16:16):
a court might order, which isreally just compensation. So for
one of my clients, the personwho was harassing her was sort
of in the same area, and shedidn't feel comfortable in her
local bar, she just thought thathe might come in. So part of the
agreement was he agreed not togo to that bar. And she was
(16:38):
really happy about that. It justmeant she could relax now and
enjoy socialising there and nothave to be watching the door for
him coming in which she had beendoing up till then. So yeah,
that was a good outcome. Otheroutcomes that we often include
in agreements are training forstaff and managers so that the
(17:00):
unlawful actions don't happenagain. Sometimes there's review
of policies or complaintprocedures within the
organisation, which make itclear for someone if it happens,
again, that they know what todo, or sometimes speaking into
processes that have been reallyunhelpful and hard for the
(17:21):
person who's suffered theharassment. So redesigning those
processes there, they're a bitmore protective of the person
who's suffered the harassment.
And even sometimes in themediation hearing, an
acknowledgement from theworkplace that the person hasn't
been treated well, is reallyimportant and really validating
(17:41):
and just makes the client justfeel much better about whatever
outcome comes after that, justbecause they haven't had that
until that situation wherethey're in mediation together.
Yasmine (17:54):
This podcast is for community workers. If a
community worker is working withsomeone who may have a sexual
harassment or discriminationissue, how can they help that
person?
Katja (18:07):
So I think I've said it a few times. But if you only learn
one thing from this podcast, itis please to encourage your
clients to get legal advice. Sowe can give free legal advice on
these issues. There's noobligation to do anything. But
it's really good to know whatthe options are. I've had some
young clients, young people whohave been discriminated or
(18:29):
sexually harassed against, andwhen we talk, they feel so
empowered to know what hashappened to them isn't right.
And that they have options thatthey may never choose to take
those options, but they justfeel better knowing it sort of
shifts the power. And they knowthere's something they can do if
they choose to. So justencourage your clients to get
(18:50):
legal advice.
There are some time limits. Socomplaints to Anti
Discrimination, New South Walesand the Human Rights Commission
need to be lodged between one ortwo years from when the
discrimination happened. Soplease, yeah, just be mindful of
that and encourage people to getadvice. If someone loses their
(19:12):
job, the deadline is 21 days. Soit is really important if
someone's been fired, encouragethem to get legal advice
straight away, because that is avery short and very strict time
limit. So I should say the onesabout sexual harassment and
discrimination are a little bitlooser. And there are arguments
(19:33):
if someone is out of those timelimits, you can still lodge
complaints. So don't tellsomeone it's happened too long
ago, they shouldn't get advice,just get advice, and we can talk
through those options. Eventhose 21 day time limits, if
someone has been fired, theremight be other options with a
longer time limit if you'reoutside those times. So again,
(19:56):
yeah, just get legal advice.
And some other things I supposeas community workers, so you
could help a person take notesabout what's happened. If
they're talking to you about it,they might feel comfortable so
you can make notes. And thatwould help them when they get
legal advice if that's alreadybeen documented. The solicitor
doesn't have to go over withthat with them again, maybe
(20:18):
suggest non-legal supports -counselling, if they need to go
to medical appointments, maybereport to police, you could help
facilitate those for them. Andmaybe help them to think before
they come to advice, whatoutcome they want, so they can
communicate that to thesolicitor. And it'd be really
helpful for us if there are anybarriers for your clients
(20:41):
getting help that you let LegalAid know because we do want to
make sure our services areaccessible. And probably clients
that you are working with dohave barriers for getting legal
assistance. So if there issomething that we can do better,
please contact us and advocatefor them in we'll try and be as
flexible as we can toaccommodate those needs.
Yasmine (21:02):
And how does someone make that contact to get in
touch with Respect at Work legalservice?
Katja (21:09):
Yeah, Legal Aid has so many specialist services, it can
get really confusing, but we'rereally trying to just simplify
the way people access ourservices. So LawAccess is now
the triage and you can call LawAccess, their number is one 1300
888 529. So if you callLawAccess, they will triage you
(21:32):
and ask about the legal problemand make sure you get an
appointment with the appropriateteam. And if that's workplace
sexual harassment, ordiscrimination, that will
probably come through to theRespect at Work Legal Service.
Unless there's something thatperson's in a regional area and
wants face to face, they mightbe booked with a local office
for them. So just call LawAccessand they can assess a client's
(21:53):
need and make sure they'rebooked where they need to be and
with the right team for theirlegal matter.
Yasmine (21:59):
Fantastic. And I'll put the information about LawAccess
in the show notes for thisepisode. And if you go to the
Legal Aid website, there's alsothe option to chat via the web.
So there's a web chat option ifyou do prefer contacting
LawAccess via webchat. So thankyou very much for your time,
Katja. Was there anything elsethat you wanted to add?
Katja (22:21):
No, I don't think so. Just the main message is to get
legal advice. Never too early toget it and, I suppose share this
podcast with other workers so wecan share the message.
Yasmine (22:31):
Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for
tuning in to this specialepisode of Law for Community
Workers. To find out more aboutwhat we do, you can go to the
Legal Aid website atlegalaid.nsw.gov.au. Under 'Ways
to get help', you can clickCommunity Legal Education. Don't
(22:52):
forget to also subscribe to oure-alert Law for Community
Workers. All the info is in theshow notes.
This podcast was produced on the land of the
(00:02):
Gadigal people of the EoraNation. We pay our respect to
Elders past and present.
In 2020, a major report by theAustralian Human Rights
Commission quoted that workplacesexual harassment is "prevalent
and pervasive. It occurs inevery industry, in every
(00:25):
location, and at every level inAustralian workplaces." My name
is Yasmine and this is Law forCommunity Workers. In this
episode I speak with Katja fromthe Respect At Work Legal
Service to find out more aboutthis huge issue and what you can
do as a community worker to helpa client or someone you work
(00:46):
with who may have experiencedsexual harassment or
discrimination at work.
If you are impacted by any ofthe issues discussed in this
episode, you can call the NewSouth Wales Sexual Violence
Helpline on 1-800-422-4017 ornationally, you can call 1800
Respect on 1-800-737-7322.
(01:16):
Thank you so much for joining uson the podcast today Katja.
Could you please introduceyourself and the Respect At Work
Legal Service?
Katja (01:25):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Hello, my name is Katja. I'm a
solicitor with the Respect atWork Legal Service. I'm located
in Lismore. But we are astatewide service with
solicitors that service thewhole of New South Wales, and we
help people with sexualharassment and discrimination
issues that have happened atwork. We give people free and
(01:48):
confidential legal advice andcan help with ongoing matters in
these areas if people need it.Our team was funded after an
inquiry into sexual harassmentin 2020 that found that one in
three people in the workforcehad experienced sexual
harassment in the last fiveyears. The inquiry found that
(02:10):
the people that were havingthese issues were mostly young
people, Aboriginal people andpeople with a disability. And so
they're our priority clientgroups, along with people from
multicultural communities. Butwe can provide advice to people
across New South Wales, we are astatewide service.
Unknown (02:28):
That's
Yasmine (02:28):
That's really, really interesting work. And those
stats sound quite high. Couldyou explain what you mean by
sexual harassment in theworkplace?
Katja (02:40):
Sexual harassment is when someone does or says something
that's sexual in nature, and youdon't like it. And then in the
same situation, someone elsewouldn't like it either. So the
legal definition refers tounwelcome conduct of a sexual
nature. So some examples mightbe sexual jokes, very personal
(03:05):
questions, suggestive commentsor gestures, or being touched in
a way that a person doesn'tlike. Sometimes it's repeated
invitations to go out withsomeone or another sort of
sexual advance. And sadly,sometimes it is sexual assault.
It's important to note that thelegal definition, so unwelcome
(03:28):
sexual conduct, doesn't refer towhat the person who's doing the
harassment meant by it. So ifsomeone at work, makes
inappropriate jokes, and thensays, I'm only joking, or you're
too sensitive, you can still beunlawful sexual harassment, even
if that person didn't meananything by it.
(03:50):
I do quite a bit of education inschools about these topics. And
the students describe feelinguncomfortable about something or
someone. And I think that's agood guide. If something at work
is making you feeluncomfortable, it's worth
getting legal advice to see ifit's unlawful sexual harassment,
and there's something that youcan do about it.
Yasmine (04:12):
Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to point out
about the feeling and when itfeels uncomfortable, and that,
you know, a lot of people areable to identify it as being you
know, it felt feltuncomfortable, but you know, I
tried to address it and it isthat common situation where
people, you know, may turnaround in the workplace and say,
but it was just a joke or makeexcuses for it or, but they
(04:35):
didn't mean this, but theydidn't mean that. So I think
it's really important to notethat that that intention doesn't
doesn't matter, and it's aboutthat feeling. What about
discrimination? Where does thatcome into play? or what would
that look like?
Katja (04:48):
Yeah, so unlawful discrimination is a little bit
more technical in terms ofwhat's not not allowed under the
law. It's probably easiest tothink of two different aspects.
There's a protectedcharacteristic and a protected
area. So we ask why the unfairtreatment was happening - was it
(05:11):
because of a protectedcharacteristic, and where the
unfair treatment happened - wasit in a protected area.
So you're really looking atunfair treatment, why it
happened and where it happened.So protected characteristics,
broadly race, disability, ageand sex. And within sex
(05:33):
discrimination, there are somesort of subcategories like
gender, gender identity, sexualorientation, carer
responsibilities, breastfeedingand pregnancy. So people can't
be treated unfairly, because ofone of those things, their race,
disability, age, or sex. Butit's also only unlawful if it's
(05:57):
happened in a protected area. Sothose are employment, education,
goods and services, which islike when you're in a shop,
accessing public places onpublic transport, accommodation,
which includes sort of rentalproperties, hotels, and then
(06:22):
clubs and associations andsport. So yeah, sort of looking
at why unfair treatmenthappened, and whether it
happened in one of thosecontexts might make it unlawful.
I can give you a few examples,if that's helpful. So if a 16
year old boy is followed aroundKmart by a security guard, and
(06:45):
then you'd argue that's agediscrimination in goods and
services, there's nothing aboutthe boy that suggests he would
be shoplifting other than thefact that he's young. That that
could be arguably agediscrimination. He's been
treated unfairly when he's inthe shop.
Another example is, and thishappens, there's a fight between
(07:10):
two men at a pub, the nonAboriginal man is banned from
the pub for three months. Andthe Aboriginal man is banned
from the pub for six months. Sothis is unfair treatment, they
were both in the fight, theyboth cause a problem. But the
Aboriginal man has been bannedfor longer, you would argue that
that is racial discrimination,and again, in accessing goods
(07:33):
and services when they've beenat the pub.
In a workplace, we see quite alot of discrimination in
relation to pregnancy. Soparticularly casual workers,
either saying they're intendingto get pregnant or in the early
stages of their pregnancy, areoften told there's no more work
for them when they say thatthey're pregnant or trying to
(07:55):
get pregnant. So that is sexdiscrimination in employment is
unlawful.
Yasmine (08:02):
You often do hear a few misconceptions about
discrimination or what peoplemight think discrimination is
and you did say it is quite hasthat bit more of a technical
element? What are somemisconceptions that you might
use that people have aboutdiscrimination or sexual
(08:22):
harassment?
Katja (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, it can be complex. So it is really good to
get advice. If you feelsomething's unfair. I think
there's a feeling that casualsdon't have any rights. I mean,
casuals, there are somelimitations on on what casuals
can bring complaints about butthey are protected by
(08:44):
discrimination laws. And thereare also other employment laws
that do cover them. And so thereoften is remedies. So if you're
a casual and you get toldthere's no more work, if you
think that that is for a reasonthat's unlawful, like sex
discrimination, it's worthgetting advice because you might
have some some options there.The other thing is something
(09:05):
called victimisation. So if youmake a complaint about
discrimination or sexualharassment, and then are treated
badly because of that, that'salso against the law and applies
to all workers. So we have quitea few casual workers after
they've made a sexual harassmentcomplaint, they get less shifts,
and that would be unlawfulvictimisation. So yeah, again,
(09:29):
encouraging people to getadvice. Another misconception is
that in order to do somethingabout sexual harassment, people
need to report it to the police.Sexual harassment can also be a
criminal offence but often it'snot. So there isn't a
requirement to go to the police,and that shouldn't put people
(09:50):
off getting some help about it.So again, the message is for
people to get legal advice, andwe can talk them through their
options but not to not dosomething about sexual
harassment because you don'twant to take it to the police.
Get legal advice, and we'll talkabout it.
Another misconception is thatyou won't be believed because
(10:11):
you don't have witnesses. Imean, most sexual harassment
victims don't have anywitnesses. So please get advice.
We can help you present yourcomplaint clearly, and advise
you anything that you might beable to get to strengthen your
complaint. But don't feel thatit's not worth doing anything
because you haven't got awitness or it didn't happen
(10:33):
under CCTV footage or something.Because they rarely, they rarely
do. And they're stillsuccessful.
And the final misconception isthat people have to go to court
to deal with sexual harassmentor discrimination matters. That
is an end result for thesematters if they can't be
resolved earlier, but it'sactually very rare. There are so
(10:56):
many options before court, andthe vast majority of complaints
can be resolved before having togo there.
So when we talk to someone, wealways ask what outcome
thereafter, what do they wantout of making a complaint, or,
you know, standing up for what'shappened. And then the options
(11:17):
that we discuss with them dependon what they want. So for some
people in an employmentsituation, they want to stay
working. And it's about makingthat safe and having the
harassment or discriminationdealt with, so they can keep
working there. Whereas for otherpeople they've left, but it's
important to them to make surewhat happened to them doesn't
(11:39):
happen to others. So they wantto look at workplace change,
even though they've left. Sothey're just some examples.
There is a range of thingspeople can do, they can do
nothing. They can write or talkto the person who's done the
unlawful discrimination orharassment, or their employer or
the business who's in charge ofthat person. Or they can make a
(12:05):
formal complaint to an outsidebody, which is like Anti
Discrimination New South Wales,or the Human Rights Commission,
or the Fair Work Commission. Soyou can see there's lots of
options, and none of those thatI just mentioned, involve court
yet. So yeah, really good to getlegal advice and talk about what
they can do. And we can supportpeople through that, too. So
(12:25):
that's another message to getacross that you don't have to do
this on your own. There are freelegal services, Legal Aid, the
Aboriginal Legal Service hassome funding to help with these
matters as well. And CommunityLegal Centres also provide
assistance. So you've got lotsof options to help you through
this process.
Yasmine (12:46):
Yeah, fantastic. And a few points that you mentioned
that I didn't even know myself.So really, really important to
know. And what can someoneexpect when they do make that
step to go and get legal advice?What could they expect from the
(13:07):
Respect at Work Legal Service.
Katja (13:09):
So if someone has suffered sexual harassment,
they'll be booked in for anappointment with a solicitor
without having to tell theirstory at that intake stage. They
might want to send through awritten statement, which for the
solicitor will read before theytalk to them. We're really
trying to make it a processwhere the person doesn't have to
(13:30):
tell their story, and is in aposition where they feel
comfortable talking about whathappened before they have to
talk about it. So we allow alonger time for our appointments
to allow people time to feelcomfortable and tell their
story. They can be face to face,they can be by Zoom or by phone.
We can reschedule if someonejust doesn't feel up to it that
(13:52):
day. And there's no pressure tohave to decide what to do that
day. So you can get the advice.Often we will talk through the
options. It's a lot to take in,we might send a diagram that
helps you sort of look at thedifferent options and think
about it. And then we might callback a little a few days later
or a week later just to followup and see how they're feeling
(14:15):
and what they're thinking aboutit. And that's similar for
discrimination. Although atintake, you might be asked a few
more questions about whathappened, because we are the
Respect at Work Legal Serviceand will help with workplace
discrimination. But there areother solicitors in Legal Aid
that help with other types ofdiscrimination. So you might be
asked a little bit more atintake just to make sure you're
(14:37):
booked with the best team withinLegal Aid to help you. And then
once you've had that advice, wecan maybe help write the
complaint and consider whetheryou need further assistance
beyond that.
Yasmine (14:49):
And is it a free service?
Katja (14:51):
Yes. So Legal Aid the advices are free. If you way
down the track hadrepresentation from Legal Aid
for a court matter, there mightbe a contribution payable. But
definitely the advice help withthe complaint, help at mediation
with Anti-Discrimination or theHuman Rights Commission. All
(15:13):
those are free. There are someeligibility requirements, but
it's really just worth gettingadvice. And then that'll be all
talked through with you at thetime.
Yasmine (15:24):
And do you have any success stories where Respect at
Work Legal service has assistedsomeone?
Katja (15:31):
Yeah, look, we've been operating a little bit over a
year. Now, we've had some reallygood outcomes at mediation, with
compensation awards ranging fromseven and a half thousand to
$90,000. But the amount isreally dependent on what has
happened, but mostly how theperson has been affected. So
(15:54):
every case is different, youneed advice about what might be
an appropriate award in yourcase. But what we've noticed is
that often what give givesclients the most satisfaction is
that not the money, but the theother sort of outcomes that they
can negotiate with the otherperson. So at mediation, you can
be a lot more creative in theoutcomes that you want than what
(16:16):
a court might order, which isreally just compensation. So for
one of my clients, the personwho was harassing her was sort
of in the same area, and shedidn't feel comfortable in her
local bar, she just thought thathe might come in. So part of the
agreement was he agreed not togo to that bar. And she was
(16:38):
really happy about that. It justmeant she could relax now and
enjoy socialising there and nothave to be watching the door for
him coming in which she had beendoing up till then. So yeah,
that was a good outcome. Otheroutcomes that we often include
in agreements are training forstaff and managers so that the
(17:00):
unlawful actions don't happenagain. Sometimes there's review
of policies or complaintprocedures within the
organisation, which make itclear for someone if it happens,
again, that they know what todo, or sometimes speaking into
processes that have been reallyunhelpful and hard for the
(17:21):
person who's suffered theharassment. So redesigning those
processes there, they're a bitmore protective of the person
who's suffered the harassment.
And even sometimes in themediation hearing, an
acknowledgement from theworkplace that the person hasn't
been treated well, is reallyimportant and really validating
(17:41):
and just makes the client justfeel much better about whatever
outcome comes after that, justbecause they haven't had that
until that situation wherethey're in mediation together.
Yasmine (17:54):
This podcast is for community workers. If a
community worker is working withsomeone who may have a sexual
harassment or discriminationissue, how can they help that
person?
Katja (18:07):
So I think I've said it a few times. But if you only learn
one thing from this podcast, itis please to encourage your
clients to get legal advice. Sowe can give free legal advice on
these issues. There's noobligation to do anything. But
it's really good to know whatthe options are. I've had some
young clients, young people whohave been discriminated or
(18:29):
sexually harassed against, andwhen we talk, they feel so
empowered to know what hashappened to them isn't right.
And that they have options thatthey may never choose to take
those options, but they justfeel better knowing it sort of
shifts the power. And they knowthere's something they can do if
they choose to. So justencourage your clients to get
(18:50):
legal advice.
There are some time limits. Socomplaints to Anti
Discrimination, New South Walesand the Human Rights Commission
need to be lodged between one ortwo years from when the
discrimination happened. Soplease, yeah, just be mindful of
that and encourage people to getadvice. If someone loses their
(19:12):
job, the deadline is 21 days. Soit is really important if
someone's been fired, encouragethem to get legal advice
straight away, because that is avery short and very strict time
limit. So I should say the onesabout sexual harassment and
discrimination are a little bitlooser. And there are arguments
(19:33):
if someone is out of those timelimits, you can still lodge
complaints. So don't tellsomeone it's happened too long
ago, they shouldn't get advice,just get advice, and we can talk
through those options. Eventhose 21 day time limits, if
someone has been fired, theremight be other options with a
longer time limit if you'reoutside those times. So again,
(19:56):
yeah, just get legal advice.
And some other things I supposeas community workers, so you
could help a person take notesabout what's happened. If
they're talking to you about it,they might feel comfortable so
you can make notes. And thatwould help them when they get
legal advice if that's alreadybeen documented. The solicitor
doesn't have to go over withthat with them again, maybe
(20:18):
suggest non-legal supports -counselling, if they need to go
to medical appointments, maybereport to police, you could help
facilitate those for them. Andmaybe help them to think before
they come to advice, whatoutcome they want, so they can
communicate that to thesolicitor. And it'd be really
helpful for us if there are anybarriers for your clients
(20:41):
getting help that you let LegalAid know because we do want to
make sure our services areaccessible. And probably clients
that you are working with dohave barriers for getting legal
assistance. So if there issomething that we can do better,
please contact us and advocatefor them in we'll try and be as
flexible as we can toaccommodate those needs.
Yasmine (21:02):
And how does someone make that contact to get in
touch with Respect at Work legalservice?
Katja (21:09):
Yeah, Legal Aid has so many specialist services, it can
get really confusing, but we'rereally trying to just simplify
the way people access ourservices. So LawAccess is now
the triage and you can call LawAccess, their number is one 1300
888 529. So if you callLawAccess, they will triage you
(21:32):
and ask about the legal problemand make sure you get an
appointment with the appropriateteam. And if that's workplace
sexual harassment, ordiscrimination, that will
probably come through to theRespect at Work Legal Service.
Unless there's something thatperson's in a regional area and
wants face to face, they mightbe booked with a local office
for them. So just call LawAccessand they can assess a client's
(21:53):
need and make sure they'rebooked where they need to be and
with the right team for theirlegal matter.
Yasmine (21:59):
Fantastic. And I'll put the information about LawAccess
in the show notes for thisepisode. And if you go to the
Legal Aid website, there's alsothe option to chat via the web.
So there's a web chat option ifyou do prefer contacting
LawAccess via webchat. So thankyou very much for your time,
Katja. Was there anything elsethat you wanted to add?
Katja (22:21):
No, I don't think so. Just the main message is to get
legal advice. Never too early toget it and, I suppose share this
podcast with other workers so wecan share the message.
Yasmine (22:31):
Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for
tuning in to this specialepisode of Law for Community
Workers. To find out more aboutwhat we do, you can go to the
Legal Aid website atlegalaid.nsw.gov.au. Under 'Ways
to get help', you can clickCommunity Legal Education. Don't
(22:52):
forget to also subscribe to oure-alert Law for Community
Workers. All the info is in theshow notes.
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