September 9, 2024 • 30 mins
***Content warning: This episode discusses suicide and suicide prevention. If this may be triggering for you, consider skipping this episode or listening at a different time. For support, you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 (more contact numbers below)***
Death by suicide is hard to think about, let alone talk about. But this is what mental health advocate Craig Hamilton is asking us to do.
He wants everyone to make ‘the promise’ that if you’re struggling with your mental health, you will tell someone.
In this episode of Law Matters, Catherine Henry speaks to Craig about his recent documentary, The Promise, and the manic episode that began Craig’s mission to talk openly about mental health and work tirelessly to reduce stigma.
In this episode, Catherine and Craig talk about:
- How attitudes to mental health have changed over the past 20 years
- Why, despite all the advancements, we still need to do better when it comes to providing care for people with mental illness
- Why people in regional and rural Australia face even greater disadvantages
Disclaimer
While this podcast is aimed to be informative, it is not intended to be a substitute for legal advice. You should see a solicitor for complete advice that relates directly to your situation.
Mental Health Services
For support, please reach out to the following services:Lifeline - Free 24/7 suicide prevention and crisis support for all Australians. Call 13 11 14
Suicide Call Back Service - Free 24/7 counselling support if you are at risk of or affected by suicide. Call 1300 659 467
Kids Helpline - Free 24/7 phone and online counselling service for young people aged 5 to 25. Call 1800 55 1800
13 YARN - Free 24/7 Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander-run crisis support line. Call 13 92 76
If you or someone you know need advice regarding the care received during a mental health crisis, you can learn more about mental health and the law here, or contact the team at Catherine Henry Lawyers on 1800 874 949.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Law Matters podcast.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers.
Before we go any further, I do want to warn you that in this episode, we're talking aboutsuicide prevention, which means that we are going to talk about suicide.
If this isn't the right time for you to listen, then you may want to skip this one orlisten on another day.
I also want to let you know that if you are struggling, that there are people andorganizations who are ready to help.
(00:29):
You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 and we'll also link to services that you can reach outto in the show notes.
In Australia, over 3000 deaths occur by suicide every year.
It's such a hard topic to talk about, but people who are unwell need to receive goodtreatment and fast.
(00:53):
So it's important that we raise awareness of what's currently being done and how far wehave to go.
To help me talk about this subject is someone who has made a very public call for you andI to make the promise to reach out if you're struggling.
Mental health advocate
speaker and former ABC broadcaster Craig Hamilton has had a long history with his ownmental health.
(01:17):
It was 20 years ago that he wrote his first book called Broken Open that has actually justrecently been released as an audiobook.
And now he's made a documentary, The Promise, which is streaming on Stan.
Craig was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after a manic episode on the eve of what wassupposed to be one of his greatest career achievements.
And that was calling the Sydney Olympic Games.
(01:40):
A lot has happened since then.
So Craig, welcome to Law Matters.
Thank you very much.
And firstly, can I congratulate you on the documentary, The Promise?
Suicide is very hard to talk about.
Not many are brave enough to do it.
How do you feel the documentary has been received?
It's been received very well.
It's a very tough subject to talk about.
(02:01):
It was always going to be a documentary that maybe doesn't polarise the
community, but for some people who are close to the issue, who are struggling with theirmental health, have lost a family member, a loved one, a colleague, a friend to suicide,
(02:23):
it's very raw because we do explore the topic and we do explore suicidal ideation and wealso interview people who have lost family members to suicide and their stories are very
brave and
And very, and very raw indeed, but we set out to make a documentary that would make adifference to rattle the cage in many ways.
(02:48):
And I think we've achieved that.
And I think the more Australians that get a chance to have a look at it, the better we'llbe in moving this whole debate forward.
you talk about calls to action, Craig, and out of all the calls to action that you couldchoose and all the ones that you've identified, you seem to focus on one in particular,
which is.
the promise, why that particular call to action?
(03:11):
Well, in the area of suicide prevention, there's been a lot of strategies over the periodof time that I've been involved in the mental health space and I've been speaking and
telling my story now for 20 years.
As you mentioned, my first book, Broken Open, was published in 2004, so it's 20 years thisyear.
(03:33):
And we've just done it as a
as an audio book because people listen to books now rather than read them.
But this is different.
This is a specific request or I suppose challenge for people to make a promise and to doit before they're struggling.
(03:54):
Don't make the promise to someone else when you are struggling because it can be so hard.
It can be almost impossible to share how you're feeling at that
because you're so vulnerable.
But the promise is that we could make it today.
And I would say to you, I promise you, Catherine, that if I get to a place where I'mreally struggling with my mental health, I'm in a dark place, before it gets worse, I will
(04:22):
call you.
That's my promise to you.
And you can do the same for me.
So we see that as A, it's a call to action, but it's also a circuit breaker.
I see it as a circuit breaker.
So something that has a capacity for somebody who's in a desperate place with their mentalhealth to go, there's no way out of here.
(04:44):
But I did make that promise to Catherine and I'm going to follow through.
made the promise and that can not only be life changing, it can be life saving because
The silence around it and the fact that there's so much stigma around suicide, and italways has been, that is a very powerful thing to do and commit to do with someone when
(05:12):
you can actually make that promise.
And I think that's clearly the big message out of the film.
And when that promise is made, what
in your experience happens when somebody tells somebody else that they have had suicidalthoughts and they promise that they will let that other person that they've brought into
(05:36):
their circle know when they're feeling at their worst.
Well, that's the other side of the equation.
And that is critically important as well, because I think most people, vast majority ofpeople, when confronted with a situation where
someone confides in them and says, look, I've had suicidal thoughts.
(05:59):
I've considered taking my life.
Then it's a huge shock.
and in many, many cases, and most people don't know how to respond.
They've no idea how to respond.
So part of the, documentary is also about what to say.
(06:20):
What do I do?
How do I respond?
And so they're really important messages.
Yeah.
And my strategy has been, and this is when anybody's ever asked me is to listen, toempathize and to simply say, look, I can't understand your situation.
(06:44):
can't understand how you feel.
Haven't walked in your shoes.
I haven't walked in your shoes, but I empathize with you.
And the fact that I'm really glad.
that you told me, I'm really glad we're having this conversation.
Have you had any help?
Have you spoken to anyone?
Have you been to a GP?
Are you seeing a psychologist?
Are you getting any treatment?
(07:05):
You know, does anyone else know?
There's all those things without firing, you know, those questions rapid fire at someone.
Just have that in your kit bag.
It surely creates a bond between the two people.
I would have thought.
Well, straight away.
It's an incredible, there's an incredible amount of trust there from the person who'sgiving you that information.
(07:31):
They are trusting you with something from deep within them that they, you know, for allintents and purposes haven't shared with anyone else.
It's something to, I suppose, take on board and go, boy, this is, that's a big step.
that you've just taken and I'm going to not only make sure this conversation isconfidential, I'm going to help you support you, but also say, I'm not a health
(07:59):
professional here.
I don't have those skills, but I want to know that you are getting to see someone whodoes.
And that's, would have thought in itself is a very powerful message to convey and a verystrengthening conversation to have with somebody if you're in that extremely weak and
vulnerable situation.
I just want to turn to some of the issues around resourcing of mental health issues.
(08:24):
I assume that you would have views about this.
As a health law in the work that we do at the firm, we often work with families who arelooking for redress around a suicide that they feel has happened because the person close
to them wasn't properly cared for by mental health units generally within publichospitals.
(08:46):
In my experience, this speaks often to a larger crisis around the general lack ofresourcing of mental health and the need for more funding.
I'm just wondering whether in all these, you know, in the 20 years that you've beenadvocating for mental health, how do you think that the government and the response of the
caring professions has been to mental health?
(09:07):
Well, when you talk about health in general, the short answer is we can do better.
We can always do better than we are.
And I fully understand that there are budgets and it's not, you know, utopia.
You don't just sign the checks and have the best healthcare known to mankind.
(09:30):
So we're trying to do, and the governments are trying to do their best.
In mental health, we can do so much better.
I've seen, I've heard the war stories.
People have told me,
you know, in one -on -one conversations, some horrendous, about horrendous situations thathave impacted on not only them, but on their family members and in situations where they
(09:57):
have lost loved ones to suicide.
There is no excuse in care today when someone who is at their most vulnerable is admittedto hospital.
To get to, to become safe.
To become safe.
(10:17):
There's no excuse.
We know enough now in terms of what is required to keep people safe.
And look, there's no 100 % situation where things can't happen.
That might be stretching it, but we've got to do better.
(10:39):
It's about recognizing the risks.
Yeah, and acting on that risk.
And I completely am with you regarding mental health funding.
know, it's always mental health, aged care, people are hidden from the general population.
And I think mental health is often way down the list.
(11:01):
Mental health has been down the list and off the charts and not discussed for so long.
It is the
Poor relation compared to how it was 20 years ago, 24 years ago now, 2000 was the yearthat I became really unwell.
(11:22):
Had the depression, had the manic episode, had the psychosis.
The Olympics.
Around the Olympics, three days before the Olympics, hospitalized and diagnosed withbipolar disorder.
It's 24 years ago.
We've come a long way in that time.
We're talking more about mental health issues.
Thanks to people like you.
Well, you and I talking about it today.
(11:44):
That hasn't always been the case.
And it is, I have no doubt that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
And particularly where money is talked about at government level.
Mental health's never been a squeaky wheel because so many stories aren't told, you know,for too long.
(12:10):
serious mental health problems have been kept within families.
haven't been talked about.
They haven't been shared because of the stigma and the embarrassment around the veryissue.
If we're being
fair dinkum about it, then there's got to be a recognition at the very top of the tree tosay, we know there are still families out there who are struggling.
(12:38):
We shouldn't have a situation in the country where people who present at hospital in anemergency situation, life -threatening situation, people who are suicidal, and be told
there's no room, there's no bed.
We don't have the, you know, we simply cannot cater for you here.
(13:00):
That happens.
People who are discharged too early because someone makes a judgment call that theirpriority is not as great as someone else's.
However, if you or I get hurt badly in a car accident today and we're whisked off to theJohn Hunter, then we're getting first world care.
(13:21):
Yep.
In a major trauma centre?
In a major trauma centre, if there's broken bones, we're getting x -rayed and MRIs and allsorts of things were put in intensive care.
They're not turned away.
Not turned away.
You're not put in your car with half a dozen panadol and said, look, you know, I hope thepain's not too bad.
Doesn't happen.
And it shouldn't happen with mental health.
(13:42):
And being hospitalised, I mean, I've got a situation at the moment that I'm looking atwhere the woman was told, we don't have the room.
It's better to be
accommodated in a corridor, you know, that just shouldn't happen in 2024.
And I think that the government needs to put this, listen and prioritise mental health.
(14:04):
we have been, seems to me, beating that drum for some considerable time.
A lot of it can be at the very pointy end of crisis care at emergency departments where
If people aren't getting voluntarily admitted and assessed, well, if they're getting tohospital and saying, look, I know my mental health is poor and I need some time in this
(14:31):
hospital, or they're being scheduled, okay, which is because they are a danger tothemselves or someone else under the Mental Health Act.
The triage emergency for mental health cases has to be better.
Now.
I can give you my own example of my own experience.
(14:55):
Personally, I had a second episode seven years, no, probably 10 years after 2000 becausebipolar disorder is a cyclical illness.
It can come back and bite you when you least expect it.
And I was taken up voluntarily to the emergency department of
(15:20):
a leading hospital and you're there in that situation with people who are there for thesame thing.
Not necessarily mental health, but because they're in an emergency department, there'ssome health issue there.
know, whether it's a broken arm, broken leg, it's an infection.
to sit around for three to four hours in a place like ED unless there's a real reason forit.
(15:44):
Exactly.
So then the trio situation.
It's someone's opinion who's trained and that's their job to prioritize.
Okay.
So I didn't think on this day and, and I was with my wife on that occasion.
Louise was with me.
(16:06):
So we knew what we were dealing with, but I was becoming increasingly agitated.
I was becoming on my way to becoming manic again, sitting there.
waiting patiently for someone to see us.
And it would have been an hour, I think.
(16:28):
But when you're sitting there as a mental health case, as someone there with a mentalhealth issue, you look for all intents and purposes, say you're okay.
And there's nothing wrong.
You're sitting there.
There's no visible signs of anything wrong.
And it's the old physical versus
mental injury.
(16:49):
Yeah.
And basically Louise eventually had to get up and go and see the nurse who was on triagethat day and say, look, I'm just wondering what the timeframe here is on someone seeing my
husband.
He's becoming mentally, more mentally unwell as we speak, he's becoming manic.
(17:14):
And the response was, right.
What does that mean?
gosh.
And Louise explained it.
said, look, he has bipolar disorder.
He's becoming manic.
We need to see someone.
He needs to see a psychiatrist.
He needs to see a doctor.
He needs to be medicated and sedated.
And if it's not done soon, he'll run.
(17:36):
And when he runs, you won't catch him.
And that's with, I'd had six years of advocacy by that stage.
I'd written a book by that stage.
I'd been interviewed around the country by that stage.
I'd been speaking publicly for six years by that stage.
So I don't expect any special treatment because I'm Craig Hamilton, far from it.
(18:03):
But that's an example of where the system can fail at that crisis point, at the pointyend.
the triaging in an emergency department, need to have, it's a bit like working as a GP,you need to have the skills across a wide range of areas to determine this person needs to
(18:25):
be seen immediately as opposed to can wait.
you can't, the idea that somebody has to have explained to them what manic means is reallyquite shocking.
It also seems to me, can I ask you Craig, that when you speak to people,
who have been affected by suicide within the family, that it does evoke particular griefresponse and it is so much…I mean, grief follows the death of anyone who is close to
(18:57):
another within the family.
But when you come to the understanding that the death could have been avoided, it doesseem to me, and it certainly…
seems to me through the work that I do, that the grief is much more pronounced and reallyhard to treat.
I'm sure that you've met people who are experiencing that sort of situation, that scenarioin the work that you do.
(19:22):
Yeah, all the time, all the time.
When someone takes their life, dies by suicide, a lot of the time the first reaction,apart from the initial shock that
family members experience when they lose someone to suicide and often it is the last thingthat they would have expected.
(19:46):
It comes as a huge shock.
It's like, I didn't see this coming.
I had no idea that they had a problem.
Then follows very quickly anger that more could have been done, what could have been done.
And often that's, they direct that at themselves.
go, well,
(20:07):
Why didn't I see these signs?
Why couldn't I have helped?
I should have had that conversation.
I could have done more.
But when it is clearly a situation that the services have let them down, then it justmagnifies the grief, I think.
(20:30):
that's, I'm not sitting here today to bash up.
our health system or to bash up our mental health care because I've been, I've seen thebest of it too, the absolute best of it.
the public system?
No, not in the public system, in the private system.
(20:52):
And that's one of the things I have a great, I'm blessed that I've been able to haveprivate health cover all my life or all my working life.
And so apart from, I've had a couple of stints within
public health three times.
And how do they compare?
Chalk and cheese, chalk and cheese.
And I get that.
(21:13):
I understand why that is, the realities of it.
But if I could wave the magic wand today and change things, I'd have our public system onthe same level on par with our private system in mental health care.
There's some great private health.
care facilities in this region and around Australia, which is the public health caresystem in mental health, we can and should do better.
(21:46):
I'm Catherine Henry and on this episode of Law Matters, we're talking about suicideawareness with mental health advocate Craig Hamilton.
Craig, you travel a lot around the country and particularly up and down the East Coast,speaking about this very important topic that you've brought into the public discourse.
(22:10):
And I just wonder, I know that you've spent time in regional Queensland.
How do you feel mental health services are in 2024 in regional areas?
Because from where I sit and we've got an unfinished regional health inquiry going on herein New South Wales, I think.
the standards of mental health treatment are even worse in the regions and a bitinaccessible.
(22:34):
Well, it comes down to resources and also the tyranny of distance.
That's the big thing.
And I've done a lot of work in Queensland and across the years, not just recently, I'vebeen speaking in Queensland for 20 years and in a lot of very small and isolated
communities.
(22:55):
I remember going to two towns
one called Georgetown, one called Greenvale in the center of Queensland.
Now I've met a lot of Queenslanders over the years who've never heard of either of thoseplaces.
I'm Very small populations.
100, 100 in the town.
(23:17):
And to go there and speak and then have some of your audience drive 250 kilometers to beat the event.
They didn't think that was unusual.
I thought it was unusual, the mental health issues in the bush and in these isolated ruralcommunities are no different to the ones that are in the city.
(23:37):
They still have the same per capita numbers.
The thing they don't have is mental health care that is quickly accessible.
So for people who were in that town, if they've got an emergency and it's a mental healthcrisis,
(23:58):
they're in an ambulance if they can get one and they're off to Townsville.
Now, Townsville from there is six or seven hours.
Gosh.
And so that's the sort of, that's the tyranny of distance.
And in more recent times when we were filming the documentary last year, I went to centralQueensland again, Towns Lake, Nebo, Moorumbah, Middlemount, Dice Art.
(24:26):
Yeah, mining towns.
I spoke to a few of the people there in support services and they said just the waitinglist to see someone, they might have one psychologist in the whole town and that
psychologist may not even be based in the town.
They might come by once every month.
(24:47):
So it's just not good enough.
I know a psychiatrist in Sydney who does forensic work in the civil jurisdiction.
And she does a clinic two days a week in Tamworth and it's been incredibly successful.
Up until this time, there was just nobody in the Northwest or the Central West.
(25:07):
And it is very much a metropolitan city health service.
They're just not provided.
We don't have psychiatry services or mental health services.
You'd rely on GPs and we've got a GP shortage in regional areas of the country.
So I think it's another.
grim aspect of this whole area.
(25:29):
How are you going health wise, Craig?
I'm very well.
My health's never been better.
I feel better at 61.
I turned 61 in January this year.
I feel better at 61 than I did when I was 35.
You know, physically that you're 61 and not 35, but mentally, I feel fantastic and havefor 15 years.
(25:52):
mean, I manage bipolar disorder.
very well.
It's still there.
I can't sit there and say that I don't longer have bipolar disorder.
I've worked my way through it and it's no longer an issue.
It's something I'm not complacent about, not for one day, because I've seen the havoc itcan cause when it does revisit.
(26:17):
But all the things I put in place in terms of strategies to stay well are there and Ifollow them.
You've left the ABC.
Maybe for now, maybe pick it up in the future.
But for now, you're spending a lot of time, I imagine, on the book promotion, on the audiobook, the documentary.
(26:37):
It's, I imagine, a different direction in your life.
It's a year since I was on air at the ABC.
Would I go back?
You never say never, right?
So I'm not going to say never.
And that goes for broadcasting anywhere, you know?
And, you know, and if you're a radio station listening today, well, you know, you can getmy number.
(27:00):
But the, what I'm doing now is more speaking, increasingly doing a lot more speaking work,a lot more workplaces.
The interesting thing about speaking workplaces is workplaces are now far more proactivewhen it comes to educating their employees about mental health.
(27:24):
Things like vicarious trauma, perhaps?
they're not as reactive anymore.
When I first started speaking, it was reactive.
Something would happen.
There'd be an incident, there would be a situation in a workplace.
we need a mental health speaker.
And then I'd be called into action.
But these days it's proactive.
(27:45):
They see value in it.
But And that's surely a positive thing.
No, it's a great thing.
It's long overdue.
that evolution over the period of time that you've been involved in this space.
And the fact that you're doing so well surely speaks to the importance of good soundtreatment.
(28:07):
You've been the beneficiary of good services, I assume.
I have.
Blessed, actually.
And I said earlier that I've been blessed in the fact that I've been able to accessprivate healthcare, having experienced the public system and being with private health
(28:28):
cover, you can then go on to have a stint if you're required in a private mental healthclinic.
And we've got some great ones.
But the other thing I would stress here for anybody who has battle mental health issues,you've got to have skin in the game yourself.
Okay.
You can do a lot.
(28:49):
Well, you can do a lot for your own health by reevaluating what choices you make.
What's important to you?
What are the triggers?
Well, triggers, how much you sleep, how much you exercise, what you eat, how much alcoholyou drink.
Do you take recreational drugs?
(29:10):
Do you manage your stress?
Ask those questions of yourself.
In other words,
be honest and have the, you know, listen to your psychologist, listen to yourpsychiatrist, listen to your GP.
But there are so many things, be careful or choose your control that you can, that willdictate your outcome or will assist with your outcome.
(29:35):
Exactly.
Craig, thank you for everything that you do and have done.
And I want to really thank you for so generously sharing.
your story, which is an amazing one.
Good luck with it all.
you very much.
If this episode has raised issues for you, there are people ready to help.
(29:59):
You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14, and I'll also link to a number of services that you canreach out to in the show notes.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
And if you need help from a legal perspective, please do get in touch.
My team of lawyers are ready to listen and can advise you on the best way forward for yoursituation.
(30:22):
And finally, I do want to
Thank Pod and Pen Productions for producing this podcast.
Welcome to the Law Matters podcast.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers.
Before we go any further, I do want to warn you that in this episode, we're talking aboutsuicide prevention, which means that we are going to talk about suicide.
If this isn't the right time for you to listen, then you may want to skip this one orlisten on another day.
I also want to let you know that if you are struggling, that there are people andorganizations who are ready to help.
(00:29):
You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 and we'll also link to services that you can reach outto in the show notes.
In Australia, over 3000 deaths occur by suicide every year.
It's such a hard topic to talk about, but people who are unwell need to receive goodtreatment and fast.
(00:53):
So it's important that we raise awareness of what's currently being done and how far wehave to go.
To help me talk about this subject is someone who has made a very public call for you andI to make the promise to reach out if you're struggling.
Mental health advocate
speaker and former ABC broadcaster Craig Hamilton has had a long history with his ownmental health.
(01:17):
It was 20 years ago that he wrote his first book called Broken Open that has actually justrecently been released as an audiobook.
And now he's made a documentary, The Promise, which is streaming on Stan.
Craig was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after a manic episode on the eve of what wassupposed to be one of his greatest career achievements.
And that was calling the Sydney Olympic Games.
(01:40):
A lot has happened since then.
So Craig, welcome to Law Matters.
Thank you very much.
And firstly, can I congratulate you on the documentary, The Promise?
Suicide is very hard to talk about.
Not many are brave enough to do it.
How do you feel the documentary has been received?
It's been received very well.
It's a very tough subject to talk about.
(02:01):
It was always going to be a documentary that maybe doesn't polarise the
community, but for some people who are close to the issue, who are struggling with theirmental health, have lost a family member, a loved one, a colleague, a friend to suicide,
(02:23):
it's very raw because we do explore the topic and we do explore suicidal ideation and wealso interview people who have lost family members to suicide and their stories are very
brave and
And very, and very raw indeed, but we set out to make a documentary that would make adifference to rattle the cage in many ways.
(02:48):
And I think we've achieved that.
And I think the more Australians that get a chance to have a look at it, the better we'llbe in moving this whole debate forward.
you talk about calls to action, Craig, and out of all the calls to action that you couldchoose and all the ones that you've identified, you seem to focus on one in particular,
which is.
the promise, why that particular call to action?
(03:11):
Well, in the area of suicide prevention, there's been a lot of strategies over the periodof time that I've been involved in the mental health space and I've been speaking and
telling my story now for 20 years.
As you mentioned, my first book, Broken Open, was published in 2004, so it's 20 years thisyear.
(03:33):
And we've just done it as a
as an audio book because people listen to books now rather than read them.
But this is different.
This is a specific request or I suppose challenge for people to make a promise and to doit before they're struggling.
(03:54):
Don't make the promise to someone else when you are struggling because it can be so hard.
It can be almost impossible to share how you're feeling at that
because you're so vulnerable.
But the promise is that we could make it today.
And I would say to you, I promise you, Catherine, that if I get to a place where I'mreally struggling with my mental health, I'm in a dark place, before it gets worse, I will
(04:22):
call you.
That's my promise to you.
And you can do the same for me.
So we see that as A, it's a call to action, but it's also a circuit breaker.
I see it as a circuit breaker.
So something that has a capacity for somebody who's in a desperate place with their mentalhealth to go, there's no way out of here.
(04:44):
But I did make that promise to Catherine and I'm going to follow through.
made the promise and that can not only be life changing, it can be life saving because
The silence around it and the fact that there's so much stigma around suicide, and italways has been, that is a very powerful thing to do and commit to do with someone when
(05:12):
you can actually make that promise.
And I think that's clearly the big message out of the film.
And when that promise is made, what
in your experience happens when somebody tells somebody else that they have had suicidalthoughts and they promise that they will let that other person that they've brought into
(05:36):
their circle know when they're feeling at their worst.
Well, that's the other side of the equation.
And that is critically important as well, because I think most people, vast majority ofpeople, when confronted with a situation where
someone confides in them and says, look, I've had suicidal thoughts.
(05:59):
I've considered taking my life.
Then it's a huge shock.
and in many, many cases, and most people don't know how to respond.
They've no idea how to respond.
So part of the, documentary is also about what to say.
(06:20):
What do I do?
How do I respond?
And so they're really important messages.
Yeah.
And my strategy has been, and this is when anybody's ever asked me is to listen, toempathize and to simply say, look, I can't understand your situation.
(06:44):
can't understand how you feel.
Haven't walked in your shoes.
I haven't walked in your shoes, but I empathize with you.
And the fact that I'm really glad.
that you told me, I'm really glad we're having this conversation.
Have you had any help?
Have you spoken to anyone?
Have you been to a GP?
Are you seeing a psychologist?
Are you getting any treatment?
(07:05):
You know, does anyone else know?
There's all those things without firing, you know, those questions rapid fire at someone.
Just have that in your kit bag.
It surely creates a bond between the two people.
I would have thought.
Well, straight away.
It's an incredible, there's an incredible amount of trust there from the person who'sgiving you that information.
(07:31):
They are trusting you with something from deep within them that they, you know, for allintents and purposes haven't shared with anyone else.
It's something to, I suppose, take on board and go, boy, this is, that's a big step.
that you've just taken and I'm going to not only make sure this conversation isconfidential, I'm going to help you support you, but also say, I'm not a health
(07:59):
professional here.
I don't have those skills, but I want to know that you are getting to see someone whodoes.
And that's, would have thought in itself is a very powerful message to convey and a verystrengthening conversation to have with somebody if you're in that extremely weak and
vulnerable situation.
I just want to turn to some of the issues around resourcing of mental health issues.
(08:24):
I assume that you would have views about this.
As a health law in the work that we do at the firm, we often work with families who arelooking for redress around a suicide that they feel has happened because the person close
to them wasn't properly cared for by mental health units generally within publichospitals.
(08:46):
In my experience, this speaks often to a larger crisis around the general lack ofresourcing of mental health and the need for more funding.
I'm just wondering whether in all these, you know, in the 20 years that you've beenadvocating for mental health, how do you think that the government and the response of the
caring professions has been to mental health?
(09:07):
Well, when you talk about health in general, the short answer is we can do better.
We can always do better than we are.
And I fully understand that there are budgets and it's not, you know, utopia.
You don't just sign the checks and have the best healthcare known to mankind.
(09:30):
So we're trying to do, and the governments are trying to do their best.
In mental health, we can do so much better.
I've seen, I've heard the war stories.
People have told me,
you know, in one -on -one conversations, some horrendous, about horrendous situations thathave impacted on not only them, but on their family members and in situations where they
(09:57):
have lost loved ones to suicide.
There is no excuse in care today when someone who is at their most vulnerable is admittedto hospital.
To get to, to become safe.
To become safe.
(10:17):
There's no excuse.
We know enough now in terms of what is required to keep people safe.
And look, there's no 100 % situation where things can't happen.
That might be stretching it, but we've got to do better.
(10:39):
It's about recognizing the risks.
Yeah, and acting on that risk.
And I completely am with you regarding mental health funding.
know, it's always mental health, aged care, people are hidden from the general population.
And I think mental health is often way down the list.
(11:01):
Mental health has been down the list and off the charts and not discussed for so long.
It is the
Poor relation compared to how it was 20 years ago, 24 years ago now, 2000 was the yearthat I became really unwell.
(11:22):
Had the depression, had the manic episode, had the psychosis.
The Olympics.
Around the Olympics, three days before the Olympics, hospitalized and diagnosed withbipolar disorder.
It's 24 years ago.
We've come a long way in that time.
We're talking more about mental health issues.
Thanks to people like you.
Well, you and I talking about it today.
(11:44):
That hasn't always been the case.
And it is, I have no doubt that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
And particularly where money is talked about at government level.
Mental health's never been a squeaky wheel because so many stories aren't told, you know,for too long.
(12:10):
serious mental health problems have been kept within families.
haven't been talked about.
They haven't been shared because of the stigma and the embarrassment around the veryissue.
If we're being
fair dinkum about it, then there's got to be a recognition at the very top of the tree tosay, we know there are still families out there who are struggling.
(12:38):
We shouldn't have a situation in the country where people who present at hospital in anemergency situation, life -threatening situation, people who are suicidal, and be told
there's no room, there's no bed.
We don't have the, you know, we simply cannot cater for you here.
(13:00):
That happens.
People who are discharged too early because someone makes a judgment call that theirpriority is not as great as someone else's.
However, if you or I get hurt badly in a car accident today and we're whisked off to theJohn Hunter, then we're getting first world care.
(13:21):
Yep.
In a major trauma centre?
In a major trauma centre, if there's broken bones, we're getting x -rayed and MRIs and allsorts of things were put in intensive care.
They're not turned away.
Not turned away.
You're not put in your car with half a dozen panadol and said, look, you know, I hope thepain's not too bad.
Doesn't happen.
And it shouldn't happen with mental health.
(13:42):
And being hospitalised, I mean, I've got a situation at the moment that I'm looking atwhere the woman was told, we don't have the room.
It's better to be
accommodated in a corridor, you know, that just shouldn't happen in 2024.
And I think that the government needs to put this, listen and prioritise mental health.
(14:04):
we have been, seems to me, beating that drum for some considerable time.
A lot of it can be at the very pointy end of crisis care at emergency departments where
If people aren't getting voluntarily admitted and assessed, well, if they're getting tohospital and saying, look, I know my mental health is poor and I need some time in this
(14:31):
hospital, or they're being scheduled, okay, which is because they are a danger tothemselves or someone else under the Mental Health Act.
The triage emergency for mental health cases has to be better.
Now.
I can give you my own example of my own experience.
(14:55):
Personally, I had a second episode seven years, no, probably 10 years after 2000 becausebipolar disorder is a cyclical illness.
It can come back and bite you when you least expect it.
And I was taken up voluntarily to the emergency department of
(15:20):
a leading hospital and you're there in that situation with people who are there for thesame thing.
Not necessarily mental health, but because they're in an emergency department, there'ssome health issue there.
know, whether it's a broken arm, broken leg, it's an infection.
to sit around for three to four hours in a place like ED unless there's a real reason forit.
(15:44):
Exactly.
So then the trio situation.
It's someone's opinion who's trained and that's their job to prioritize.
Okay.
So I didn't think on this day and, and I was with my wife on that occasion.
Louise was with me.
(16:06):
So we knew what we were dealing with, but I was becoming increasingly agitated.
I was becoming on my way to becoming manic again, sitting there.
waiting patiently for someone to see us.
And it would have been an hour, I think.
(16:28):
But when you're sitting there as a mental health case, as someone there with a mentalhealth issue, you look for all intents and purposes, say you're okay.
And there's nothing wrong.
You're sitting there.
There's no visible signs of anything wrong.
And it's the old physical versus
mental injury.
(16:49):
Yeah.
And basically Louise eventually had to get up and go and see the nurse who was on triagethat day and say, look, I'm just wondering what the timeframe here is on someone seeing my
husband.
He's becoming mentally, more mentally unwell as we speak, he's becoming manic.
(17:14):
And the response was, right.
What does that mean?
gosh.
And Louise explained it.
said, look, he has bipolar disorder.
He's becoming manic.
We need to see someone.
He needs to see a psychiatrist.
He needs to see a doctor.
He needs to be medicated and sedated.
And if it's not done soon, he'll run.
(17:36):
And when he runs, you won't catch him.
And that's with, I'd had six years of advocacy by that stage.
I'd written a book by that stage.
I'd been interviewed around the country by that stage.
I'd been speaking publicly for six years by that stage.
So I don't expect any special treatment because I'm Craig Hamilton, far from it.
(18:03):
But that's an example of where the system can fail at that crisis point, at the pointyend.
the triaging in an emergency department, need to have, it's a bit like working as a GP,you need to have the skills across a wide range of areas to determine this person needs to
(18:25):
be seen immediately as opposed to can wait.
you can't, the idea that somebody has to have explained to them what manic means is reallyquite shocking.
It also seems to me, can I ask you Craig, that when you speak to people,
who have been affected by suicide within the family, that it does evoke particular griefresponse and it is so much…I mean, grief follows the death of anyone who is close to
(18:57):
another within the family.
But when you come to the understanding that the death could have been avoided, it doesseem to me, and it certainly…
seems to me through the work that I do, that the grief is much more pronounced and reallyhard to treat.
I'm sure that you've met people who are experiencing that sort of situation, that scenarioin the work that you do.
(19:22):
Yeah, all the time, all the time.
When someone takes their life, dies by suicide, a lot of the time the first reaction,apart from the initial shock that
family members experience when they lose someone to suicide and often it is the last thingthat they would have expected.
(19:46):
It comes as a huge shock.
It's like, I didn't see this coming.
I had no idea that they had a problem.
Then follows very quickly anger that more could have been done, what could have been done.
And often that's, they direct that at themselves.
go, well,
(20:07):
Why didn't I see these signs?
Why couldn't I have helped?
I should have had that conversation.
I could have done more.
But when it is clearly a situation that the services have let them down, then it justmagnifies the grief, I think.
(20:30):
that's, I'm not sitting here today to bash up.
our health system or to bash up our mental health care because I've been, I've seen thebest of it too, the absolute best of it.
the public system?
No, not in the public system, in the private system.
(20:52):
And that's one of the things I have a great, I'm blessed that I've been able to haveprivate health cover all my life or all my working life.
And so apart from, I've had a couple of stints within
public health three times.
And how do they compare?
Chalk and cheese, chalk and cheese.
And I get that.
(21:13):
I understand why that is, the realities of it.
But if I could wave the magic wand today and change things, I'd have our public system onthe same level on par with our private system in mental health care.
There's some great private health.
care facilities in this region and around Australia, which is the public health caresystem in mental health, we can and should do better.
(21:46):
I'm Catherine Henry and on this episode of Law Matters, we're talking about suicideawareness with mental health advocate Craig Hamilton.
Craig, you travel a lot around the country and particularly up and down the East Coast,speaking about this very important topic that you've brought into the public discourse.
(22:10):
And I just wonder, I know that you've spent time in regional Queensland.
How do you feel mental health services are in 2024 in regional areas?
Because from where I sit and we've got an unfinished regional health inquiry going on herein New South Wales, I think.
the standards of mental health treatment are even worse in the regions and a bitinaccessible.
(22:34):
Well, it comes down to resources and also the tyranny of distance.
That's the big thing.
And I've done a lot of work in Queensland and across the years, not just recently, I'vebeen speaking in Queensland for 20 years and in a lot of very small and isolated
communities.
(22:55):
I remember going to two towns
one called Georgetown, one called Greenvale in the center of Queensland.
Now I've met a lot of Queenslanders over the years who've never heard of either of thoseplaces.
I'm Very small populations.
100, 100 in the town.
(23:17):
And to go there and speak and then have some of your audience drive 250 kilometers to beat the event.
They didn't think that was unusual.
I thought it was unusual, the mental health issues in the bush and in these isolated ruralcommunities are no different to the ones that are in the city.
(23:37):
They still have the same per capita numbers.
The thing they don't have is mental health care that is quickly accessible.
So for people who were in that town, if they've got an emergency and it's a mental healthcrisis,
(23:58):
they're in an ambulance if they can get one and they're off to Townsville.
Now, Townsville from there is six or seven hours.
Gosh.
And so that's the sort of, that's the tyranny of distance.
And in more recent times when we were filming the documentary last year, I went to centralQueensland again, Towns Lake, Nebo, Moorumbah, Middlemount, Dice Art.
(24:26):
Yeah, mining towns.
I spoke to a few of the people there in support services and they said just the waitinglist to see someone, they might have one psychologist in the whole town and that
psychologist may not even be based in the town.
They might come by once every month.
(24:47):
So it's just not good enough.
I know a psychiatrist in Sydney who does forensic work in the civil jurisdiction.
And she does a clinic two days a week in Tamworth and it's been incredibly successful.
Up until this time, there was just nobody in the Northwest or the Central West.
(25:07):
And it is very much a metropolitan city health service.
They're just not provided.
We don't have psychiatry services or mental health services.
You'd rely on GPs and we've got a GP shortage in regional areas of the country.
So I think it's another.
grim aspect of this whole area.
(25:29):
How are you going health wise, Craig?
I'm very well.
My health's never been better.
I feel better at 61.
I turned 61 in January this year.
I feel better at 61 than I did when I was 35.
You know, physically that you're 61 and not 35, but mentally, I feel fantastic and havefor 15 years.
(25:52):
mean, I manage bipolar disorder.
very well.
It's still there.
I can't sit there and say that I don't longer have bipolar disorder.
I've worked my way through it and it's no longer an issue.
It's something I'm not complacent about, not for one day, because I've seen the havoc itcan cause when it does revisit.
(26:17):
But all the things I put in place in terms of strategies to stay well are there and Ifollow them.
You've left the ABC.
Maybe for now, maybe pick it up in the future.
But for now, you're spending a lot of time, I imagine, on the book promotion, on the audiobook, the documentary.
(26:37):
It's, I imagine, a different direction in your life.
It's a year since I was on air at the ABC.
Would I go back?
You never say never, right?
So I'm not going to say never.
And that goes for broadcasting anywhere, you know?
And, you know, and if you're a radio station listening today, well, you know, you can getmy number.
(27:00):
But the, what I'm doing now is more speaking, increasingly doing a lot more speaking work,a lot more workplaces.
The interesting thing about speaking workplaces is workplaces are now far more proactivewhen it comes to educating their employees about mental health.
(27:24):
Things like vicarious trauma, perhaps?
they're not as reactive anymore.
When I first started speaking, it was reactive.
Something would happen.
There'd be an incident, there would be a situation in a workplace.
we need a mental health speaker.
And then I'd be called into action.
But these days it's proactive.
(27:45):
They see value in it.
But And that's surely a positive thing.
No, it's a great thing.
It's long overdue.
that evolution over the period of time that you've been involved in this space.
And the fact that you're doing so well surely speaks to the importance of good soundtreatment.
(28:07):
You've been the beneficiary of good services, I assume.
I have.
Blessed, actually.
And I said earlier that I've been blessed in the fact that I've been able to accessprivate healthcare, having experienced the public system and being with private health
(28:28):
cover, you can then go on to have a stint if you're required in a private mental healthclinic.
And we've got some great ones.
But the other thing I would stress here for anybody who has battle mental health issues,you've got to have skin in the game yourself.
Okay.
You can do a lot.
(28:49):
Well, you can do a lot for your own health by reevaluating what choices you make.
What's important to you?
What are the triggers?
Well, triggers, how much you sleep, how much you exercise, what you eat, how much alcoholyou drink.
Do you take recreational drugs?
(29:10):
Do you manage your stress?
Ask those questions of yourself.
In other words,
be honest and have the, you know, listen to your psychologist, listen to yourpsychiatrist, listen to your GP.
But there are so many things, be careful or choose your control that you can, that willdictate your outcome or will assist with your outcome.
(29:35):
Exactly.
Craig, thank you for everything that you do and have done.
And I want to really thank you for so generously sharing.
your story, which is an amazing one.
Good luck with it all.
you very much.
If this episode has raised issues for you, there are people ready to help.
(29:59):
You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14, and I'll also link to a number of services that you canreach out to in the show notes.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
And if you need help from a legal perspective, please do get in touch.
My team of lawyers are ready to listen and can advise you on the best way forward for yoursituation.
(30:22):
And finally, I do want to
Thank Pod and Pen Productions for producing this podcast.
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