November 10, 2024 • 25 mins
***Content warning: This episode discusses institutional and child abuse. If this may be triggering for you, consider skipping this episode or listening at a different time. For support, you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 (more contact numbers below)***
They’re meant to be places that have your best interests at heart, but some religious and government institutions have instead become spaces where abuse and neglect have occurred. The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse exposed the scale of historic abuse in institutions in Australia.
In this episode of Law Matters, Catherine Henry speaks with Bob O’Toole, Co-founder and Chair of the Clergy Abused Network (C.A.N.) Hunter-Newcastle-Manning, about how his organisation supports those seeking justice and redress.
In this episode, Catherine and Bob talk about:
- How C.A.N. supports survivors
- Seeking justice through the National Redress Scheme, civil claims and mediation
- General advice for people thinking about seeking redress.
Disclaimer
While this podcast is aimed to be informative, it is not intended to be a substitute for legal advice. You should see a solicitor for complete advice that relates directly to your situation.
For support, please reach out to the following services:
Lifeline - Free 24/7 suicide prevention and crisis support for all Australians - Call 13 11 14
Clergy Abused Network - a network of trauma-informed and sensitive volunteers who share the experience of being impacted by abuse by clergy or abuse by lay workers in religious contexts.
National Redress Scheme - is for people who experienced child sexual abuse while in an institution. The Scheme helps people access redress and can connect them to free confidential Redress Support Services.
For more information, please visit:
Our free online resource FAQs: Institutional Abuse.
If you or someone you know needs advice regarding redress for institutional abuse, you can learn more by contacting the team at Catherine Henry Lawyers on 1800 874 949.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Churches, schools, aged care facilities, sporting and community organisations, they'resupposed to be trusted institutions that have you and your family's best interests at
heart.
But unfortunately, some of these institutions are places in which shocking instances ofabuse have occurred.
Here in Australia, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuseand other inquiries
(00:26):
exposed systemic failures that contributed to environments in which many people were badlymistreated.
Before we get into this episode, I do want to warn you that some of the information you'reabout to hear may be triggering and listener discretion is advised.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers and in this episode of Law Matters, I'mspeaking to Bob O'Toole from the clergy abused network, Hunter, Newcastle and Manning.
(00:54):
The network is also known as CAN.
Bob is also an ex-student and a survivor of child sexual abuse at a local school.
I remember it as Maris Brothers School in Hamilton.
It's now known as St.
Francis Xavier.
In this episode, we're talking about seeking redress for abuse survivors.
(01:14):
Bob, thank you for joining me.
My pleasure.
How hard can it be, Bob, for a survivor to contact a lawyer to start the ball rolling andto
explore avenues for seeking justice?
I must say it's a lot easier than it was a few years ago.
I think the Royal Commission has opened the doors there.
(01:34):
People are more willing to come forward.
But still, as the Commission discovered, people, it's usually many years before they getto that point.
I know that we have members who have not yet
come forward basically, but they've come to us, but they haven't initiated any actionbecause of perhaps family reasons, parents might still be alive, particularly in regard to
(02:08):
abuse in a religious context, which is what our focus is.
So they do come forward to us, but don't want to go any further just yet for whateverreason.
So how do you support those people who've come forward?
How does CAN support survivors who are wanting to see what can be done?
(02:30):
A lot of our referrals come from, I guess, word of mouth, other people that were at schoolor with these people and they get encouraged to come forward to us and also from other
sources as well.
I mean, we've had referrals from police, from lawyers and psychologists.
Sometimes, you know, psychologists have helped them.
(02:52):
But what we do, the way we introduce them to CAN is we meet them first over a coffee or,you know, some place where they're comfortable and then introduce them to some CAN
leadership team members, invite them along to our monthly gathering and support them inthat way.
(03:12):
And those monthly gatherings are closed?
Yes.
Yes.
They're not public gatherings.
They're membership gatherings.
and we have guest speakers and so on, as you know.
it gives them information and it makes them feel comfortable and we have a very goodenvironment for people to come forward.
(03:34):
Then we take them through, depending on their choices of course, how they can seekredress.
We take them to the police if that's what they want to do.
We support them with interviews with police, lawyers.
we get therapy for them through the various facilities that are available.
do you make the contact yourself or do you steer them in that direction?
(03:58):
We'll steer them or we'll put them in touch with somebody who can provide what their needsare.
But they're not alone, that's the point.
And they're with people who have been there and done that.
And Bob, you've walked in the shoes of the people that you work with at CAN.
How important do you think it is for people who have experienced institutional abuse orchildhood institutional abuse to have the support of people with lived experience?
(04:27):
I think it's crucial to be honest.
Everyone says that and I think over time we've been operating now for a while and everyonesays the same thing, you know, it's such a comfortable place to be to have people that
understand, don't have to talk about all the nasties.
But how to achieve justice, how to achieve redress, if that's what they're chasing.
(04:51):
Oddly enough, most of the people are not mercenary.
They're not looking for, you know, it's not the money that drives them to do this.
It's more the justice angle.
Yes, I find that in the work that I've done over the decades, that when people are seekingcompensation, it's a small part of what they seek to achieve and that what they're
(05:12):
primarily interested in is holding the person who has wronged them accountable.
And often they say that they want to do their bit to ensure that these practices don'thappen.
So tell us about how things have developed in Newcastle because I've heard you say in thepast that Newcastle is seen by some as the epicentre of institutional abuse.
(05:35):
Could you explain that a little bit to us?
Yes, look, I think
I visited the Commission regularly and accompanied people down there to give evidence andso on.
I think there's a personal knowledge of the extent of the abuse.
(05:57):
I wasn't aware of the extent of the abuse when I first spoke out, but as time went on andmore people came in from different places, whether they were alter service or whether they
were school children or not, you
Maris brothers particularly, the extent of the abuse is just horrendous.
(06:17):
I people just can't get a grasp of that.
And often in regional and rural areas?
Yes.
And that's the places that we want to get to because we're sort of centralized here inNewcastle.
Newcastle and Barrow-le-Rat were the two epicentres.
identified by the commission and we need to get to the regional places because there'slots of people out there that where clergy were moved, you know, I mean, we're just in one
(06:48):
small patch really, know, Newcastle, Hunter and Manning.
Yes.
And you're staffed exclusively by volunteers.
So therefore depend on funding.
We are.
paid employee, but she comes to you and works for you as a result She's contracted for usfor 20 hours a week and that's funded by two institutions, two Catholic institutions.
(07:10):
We need help, we need funding and we've approached governments, federally and statewide,to try and get something, but we haven't been successful as yet.
That's a long process and more often than not results in a
a negative outcome.
(07:31):
people pass it to someone else, know, and doesn't sort of get...
But there's other aspects of fundraising and I'm that you've gone down that path.
I'm Catherine Henry, the principal of Catherine Henry Lawyers, and I'm talking today tothe co-founder and chairperson of the clergy abuse network, Newcastle Hunter and Manning,
(07:51):
Bob O'Toole, about the work that he's done in institutional abuse and redress.
Would you be able to just distinguish between the two basic avenues that a survivor cantake in seeking compensation?
Obviously there's a national redress scheme established in 2018 after the Commission hadfinished its work and our fundraising activities we've spoken to obviously the Department
(08:21):
of Social Services and sought them to support us.
unsuccessfully, but during that process we did find out more about the National RedressScheme and the way it's been progressing over these six years now.
I can tell you that as of the beginning of March, the National Redress Scheme had received37,000 applications.
(08:48):
Heavens.
And at that point in time,
between 15 and 16,000 of those 37,000 had been resolved, withdrawn, or deemed ineligible.
So about half.
That's an average of 2,650 per year over six years.
(09:09):
They've got 37,000 of them so far.
There's more to come.
We know that.
So there's 21,000 outstanding applications there sitting in someone's tray.
At the current rate of resolution, if they maintain that, you know, 2,000 or 600 a year,it's going to take another eight years to get through the outstanding ones.
(09:31):
That's if there's no more.
And there's 45 funded agencies to direct people to the National Retro Scheme.
Some of those funded organizations get huge amount of money.
One of them gets half a million dollars a year.
For how many?
20 % of the applicants.
(09:51):
Come from those 45 agencies.
has been a recent review of the national redress scheme.
It was released last year, as I understand it.
And there were some criticisms of the way the redress scheme had been functioning.
What do you think about what was found?
(10:11):
Have the recommendations that were made been implemented?
I think the inclusion of incarcerated people was one.
April there was some legislation introduced which impacted on people in custody.
That's right.
Because they'd previously been excluded from the were.
So that's going to add to the number of applicants.
(10:33):
Do you think that's a good thing?
I do.
Otherwise they're being penalised twice.
Yeah, absolutely.
jailed and they're deprived of, because a lot of people in custody are They've had a wrongstart in life.
They've had a very bad experience at an early stage.
A lot of the institutional abuse work that we do, the people have been or are in custody.
(10:56):
prisoners are treated differently.
I've seen that, you know, the way that they're compensated, caps and thresholds that don'tapply to other members of society.
have been referred to as the civil dead.
It's a double whammy for those is.
It's very terrible.
So flowing from some of the positive things that are happening.
(11:18):
Do you think that it's important to go to a person who, I mean, it's a bit like going tosee somebody for a bad outcome in a health setting.
Do you feel that it's an area where people really need to focus on this area of lawexclusively?
And if you do feel like that that is a good thing, why do you think that's so?
(11:42):
Look, I think it's important to have from a survivor's point of view, to haverepresentation of an experienced law firm in this area.
I know I've spoken to some firms that popped up and really they don't have too much of anidea of it.
They don't have the background that more established firms have.
They find this a bit when you're working in a specialised area where there's a lot ofactivity.
(12:08):
that people like the sound of it and think they need to get involved.
But it requires commitment and specialist knowledge.
you really need to be aware of the trends and what the courts have been deciding.
There's a lot happening.
mean, there are a lot of very significant cases that have been delivered in the last 12months that I can obviously It's huge area.
(12:34):
It's a of a minefield for inexperienced.
Yes, it's not for, and it's also an area of law which some many people might findconfronting.
you you're dealing with vulnerable individuals and so the lawyers do need to have a degreeof resilience and there need to be supportive structures in place at the firms where the
(12:56):
work is being done because in order to support others who undergo terrible trauma, theyhave to be in a position to be able to help.
people and be as resilient as possible.
Yeah, I think there's a turnover of legal staff too because of the nature of the work.
know, it does have, I'm sure it does have an impact on them.
(13:19):
Yeah, and a lot is said and written about that, vicarious trauma.
That's right.
But it's not, I think it's important to make the point that it's not just institution, Imean, certainly people who practice in the area of institutional abuse.
will find the work traumatising, but there are many areas of legal practice that can evokethat feeling.
(13:42):
think the, you you mentioned about changes to the National Rudra Scheme.
I gave evidence about the nature of the matrix that they have.
It's sort of like a table of, you know, one size doesn't fit everybody is what I'm tryingto say.
You know, what impacts one person hugely may not be.
(14:04):
a significant someone else and yet the compensation level is the same.
You know, it's different for individuals.
It's a blunt instrument as they say.
Yes.
And I find myself saying to clients every day, it's not adequate.
It's, you know, the compensation that you're going to receive and you can give adviceabout the likely range in the types of.
(14:33):
work that we do.
It's the system we have.
The system could be better, but it's the system that we have.
And the important thing is to agitate and advocate for changes to the law where it'snecessary to do.
think the NRS has got a cap of $150,000, whereas people have heightened expectations.
(14:55):
If they don't do the NRS and they go civil claim, maybe they'll do better.
I don't know.
Hard to say, but then you're confronted with all of the obstacles that are put up by theinstitutions.
mean, we've had permanent stay applications and all this kind of stuff.
in relation to that, there's been a very significant case that's really altered the legallandscape this year, handed down by the High Court, which has opened things up.
(15:21):
And yes, again, because I encounter it as a health and medical lawyer that you expect thatobstacles are going to be put in the way.
of your clients who have very deserving cases and you've just got to be tough and fightand go the distance with your clients.
You've got to be persistent.
you do.
And know what's likely to happen because they all must get together and say, you know,we're finding this a good strategy in our cases.
(15:49):
So it's good to have that collegiality within the legal practices that do work in aparticular area.
And we may have that in Newcastle.
I did suggest that at our December meeting and I said, well, you know, need to gettogether and share the knowledge that you have in particular instances where you've had
(16:09):
some degree of success or there's, you know, so it assists others because as you say, ifthey're not, you know, you need specialists to do the proper job.
do the work and you really need to be able to
share experiences and you're not going to do the work properly unless you are open to thatsort of approach.
(16:34):
So not everybody, mean, I think people are generally, they hear about cases going to courtand they instantly kind of stiffen up and become anxious.
A lot of cases that are brought against the church or against DCJ, Department of CommunityJustice or schools.
Department of Education don't ever get heard in a courtroom.
(16:59):
And I suppose in the years that I've been practicing as a lawyer, I've seen a real shiftaway from cases that are heard in courtrooms to what we call alternative dispute
resolution.
So mediations and informal settlement conferences.
So you'd see the cases that you're aware of ending.
A lot of them would they be resolved away from the courtroom?
(17:23):
Is that your experience?
That's the current trend, think.
it's a good thing?
It's a good thing.
It is a good thing.
No one wants to run a case and lose it after they've been through the trauma of, like youdon't want to another traumatic experience.
for survivors as well.
It's less traumatic for them too.
Yes.
(17:43):
It's certain.
There are no appeals.
Yeah.
And they're not always successful, of course, but
The mediations.
But I think it is a better way.
Sometimes you can use the vehicle of the case for an apology.
We did a case for some indigenous clients in Western New South Wales last week and therewas an apology given by the defendant in that
(18:11):
case.
And I think that's very important.
It tends not to happen when you go the full distance in a court case.
You live in regional New South Wales.
I practice in regional New South Wales.
I'm aware of the instance of, from regional lawyers that I know that it's an uncommon areaof legal practice.
(18:33):
And it would be really good to see how in the next
perhaps five to 10 years that can be changed because people in regional areas of thecountry really don't get the legal services they need.
We need to focus our energy on bringing avenues of support and work and access to legalservices available to people who live outside of the cities.
(19:00):
We've got three projects which we have funding.
up to a point we have funding for.
One is the Women Survivors Support Group that runs under the CAN umbrella for femalesurvivors of sexual abuse in a religious context.
That's running quite successfully and that will be funded now for some sort of retreattype weekend support.
(19:34):
We've got funding to run two of those.
are they away from, they're in the Hunter Valley for example?
Well, probably, but that's to be determined by the groups themselves.
So it's the women themselves that will make the decision and we'll put a steeringcommittee there of survivor women to determine what they want and how they want to do it.
(19:59):
They'll be invited.
speakers perhaps or know activities over the weekend for them if it's a weekend.
But that's up to them to determine.
The second funding project is a continuation of the mapping project where the pedophilenetworks have been you know clergy or Maris or whoever have been you know come to a
(20:23):
certain place.
You why did they come here, why did they go there and what the impact was.
So we've got these
researchers with the maps and you've got all these connecting lines and places, you know.
How long has that been going on this system?
It's been going on for some time because of a lack of funding.
(20:44):
Kathleen McPhillips is leading that with Jodie McDeath and Ruth Delafour, three doctors ofvarious criminology and all that sort of stuff.
Right.
That's, you've got funding now and we'll be going to the regional centres in the MaitlandNewcastle and Manning regions.
(21:04):
And how do get the word out about what you're doing in regional New South Wales?
Well, we'll be relying on, the idea is to conduct public meetings in central places, youknow, to say, well, we're coming to wherever and other organisations will do the publicity
in that region for us.
That's what I'm told.
(21:26):
That's in the development stages.
network.
Yes.
Also, we have some funding for collaborative activities with the Ballarat Survivor Group.
either we'll go there or they'll come here, or maybe we'll do two sort of sessions wherewe get to meet one another face to face and talk about what works best for them and what
(21:51):
works best for us.
just improve the service that we provide and they do as well, you know, so that we do havea knowledge of them, but we don't sort of have face-to-face contact.
So that's going to happen.
Just finishing off then Bob, what advice would you have for people who may be thinkingabout pursuing, not just sitting on what has happened to them, where would you advocate
(22:19):
people going to first?
Look, I think,
First of all, they need to confide in their loved ones and say, is my story and I want todo something about it.
We provide, as Chanel would say, a soft entry to this service that we provide.
Chanel being the- She's now our manager for clergy abuse network.
(22:44):
The employee that you referred to earlier.
Yes, yes.
And have a look at our website.
You'll see the friendly faces on there as well.
Two phone numbers, one is mine, the other is Chanel and give us a call.
Yes, well that's very, very accessible.
The first entry point is very soft, not a big crowd of people or anything, just maybe twoof us.
(23:08):
Maybe just one, it just depends on the individual.
Depends on the individual circumstances.
As with all of the episodes that we produce on this podcast, there'll be some links.
that we'll make available to your website, the Facebook page.
do, you produce some material.
You've held some good events, but as you say, they're generally closed events for thosewho have been affected.
(23:35):
The other thing that needs to be said is that you are a charitable organization and aregistered charity, so people can donate.
can.
to CAN and continue the good work that you do.
Thank you.
So thank you so much for being available.
my pleasure.
And it's always great to see you and to talk to you and thank you for all that you do.
(23:56):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Law Matters.
I'd also like to thank Bob O'Toole from Clergy Abused Network and for all the advocacythat he has done and for so long a period.
(24:17):
If this episode has raised issues for you, support is available by calling Lifeline on 1311 14.
And you can find more about CAN at clergyabusednetwork.org.au.
I'm Catherine Henry of Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
(24:37):
If you need help with redress or institutional abuse or matter, please get in touch.
This podcast was produced by Pod and Pen Productions.
Churches, schools, aged care facilities, sporting and community organisations, they'resupposed to be trusted institutions that have you and your family's best interests at
heart.
But unfortunately, some of these institutions are places in which shocking instances ofabuse have occurred.
Here in Australia, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuseand other inquiries
(00:26):
exposed systemic failures that contributed to environments in which many people were badlymistreated.
Before we get into this episode, I do want to warn you that some of the information you'reabout to hear may be triggering and listener discretion is advised.
I'm Catherine Henry from Catherine Henry Lawyers and in this episode of Law Matters, I'mspeaking to Bob O'Toole from the clergy abused network, Hunter, Newcastle and Manning.
(00:54):
The network is also known as CAN.
Bob is also an ex-student and a survivor of child sexual abuse at a local school.
I remember it as Maris Brothers School in Hamilton.
It's now known as St.
Francis Xavier.
In this episode, we're talking about seeking redress for abuse survivors.
(01:14):
Bob, thank you for joining me.
My pleasure.
How hard can it be, Bob, for a survivor to contact a lawyer to start the ball rolling andto
explore avenues for seeking justice?
I must say it's a lot easier than it was a few years ago.
I think the Royal Commission has opened the doors there.
(01:34):
People are more willing to come forward.
But still, as the Commission discovered, people, it's usually many years before they getto that point.
I know that we have members who have not yet
come forward basically, but they've come to us, but they haven't initiated any actionbecause of perhaps family reasons, parents might still be alive, particularly in regard to
(02:08):
abuse in a religious context, which is what our focus is.
So they do come forward to us, but don't want to go any further just yet for whateverreason.
So how do you support those people who've come forward?
How does CAN support survivors who are wanting to see what can be done?
(02:30):
A lot of our referrals come from, I guess, word of mouth, other people that were at schoolor with these people and they get encouraged to come forward to us and also from other
sources as well.
I mean, we've had referrals from police, from lawyers and psychologists.
Sometimes, you know, psychologists have helped them.
(02:52):
But what we do, the way we introduce them to CAN is we meet them first over a coffee or,you know, some place where they're comfortable and then introduce them to some CAN
leadership team members, invite them along to our monthly gathering and support them inthat way.
(03:12):
And those monthly gatherings are closed?
Yes.
Yes.
They're not public gatherings.
They're membership gatherings.
and we have guest speakers and so on, as you know.
it gives them information and it makes them feel comfortable and we have a very goodenvironment for people to come forward.
(03:34):
Then we take them through, depending on their choices of course, how they can seekredress.
We take them to the police if that's what they want to do.
We support them with interviews with police, lawyers.
we get therapy for them through the various facilities that are available.
do you make the contact yourself or do you steer them in that direction?
(03:58):
We'll steer them or we'll put them in touch with somebody who can provide what their needsare.
But they're not alone, that's the point.
And they're with people who have been there and done that.
And Bob, you've walked in the shoes of the people that you work with at CAN.
How important do you think it is for people who have experienced institutional abuse orchildhood institutional abuse to have the support of people with lived experience?
(04:27):
I think it's crucial to be honest.
Everyone says that and I think over time we've been operating now for a while and everyonesays the same thing, you know, it's such a comfortable place to be to have people that
understand, don't have to talk about all the nasties.
But how to achieve justice, how to achieve redress, if that's what they're chasing.
(04:51):
Oddly enough, most of the people are not mercenary.
They're not looking for, you know, it's not the money that drives them to do this.
It's more the justice angle.
Yes, I find that in the work that I've done over the decades, that when people are seekingcompensation, it's a small part of what they seek to achieve and that what they're
(05:12):
primarily interested in is holding the person who has wronged them accountable.
And often they say that they want to do their bit to ensure that these practices don'thappen.
So tell us about how things have developed in Newcastle because I've heard you say in thepast that Newcastle is seen by some as the epicentre of institutional abuse.
(05:35):
Could you explain that a little bit to us?
Yes, look, I think
I visited the Commission regularly and accompanied people down there to give evidence andso on.
I think there's a personal knowledge of the extent of the abuse.
(05:57):
I wasn't aware of the extent of the abuse when I first spoke out, but as time went on andmore people came in from different places, whether they were alter service or whether they
were school children or not, you
Maris brothers particularly, the extent of the abuse is just horrendous.
(06:17):
I people just can't get a grasp of that.
And often in regional and rural areas?
Yes.
And that's the places that we want to get to because we're sort of centralized here inNewcastle.
Newcastle and Barrow-le-Rat were the two epicentres.
identified by the commission and we need to get to the regional places because there'slots of people out there that where clergy were moved, you know, I mean, we're just in one
(06:48):
small patch really, know, Newcastle, Hunter and Manning.
Yes.
And you're staffed exclusively by volunteers.
So therefore depend on funding.
We are.
paid employee, but she comes to you and works for you as a result She's contracted for usfor 20 hours a week and that's funded by two institutions, two Catholic institutions.
(07:10):
We need help, we need funding and we've approached governments, federally and statewide,to try and get something, but we haven't been successful as yet.
That's a long process and more often than not results in a
a negative outcome.
(07:31):
people pass it to someone else, know, and doesn't sort of get...
But there's other aspects of fundraising and I'm that you've gone down that path.
I'm Catherine Henry, the principal of Catherine Henry Lawyers, and I'm talking today tothe co-founder and chairperson of the clergy abuse network, Newcastle Hunter and Manning,
(07:51):
Bob O'Toole, about the work that he's done in institutional abuse and redress.
Would you be able to just distinguish between the two basic avenues that a survivor cantake in seeking compensation?
Obviously there's a national redress scheme established in 2018 after the Commission hadfinished its work and our fundraising activities we've spoken to obviously the Department
(08:21):
of Social Services and sought them to support us.
unsuccessfully, but during that process we did find out more about the National RedressScheme and the way it's been progressing over these six years now.
I can tell you that as of the beginning of March, the National Redress Scheme had received37,000 applications.
(08:48):
Heavens.
And at that point in time,
between 15 and 16,000 of those 37,000 had been resolved, withdrawn, or deemed ineligible.
So about half.
That's an average of 2,650 per year over six years.
(09:09):
They've got 37,000 of them so far.
There's more to come.
We know that.
So there's 21,000 outstanding applications there sitting in someone's tray.
At the current rate of resolution, if they maintain that, you know, 2,000 or 600 a year,it's going to take another eight years to get through the outstanding ones.
(09:31):
That's if there's no more.
And there's 45 funded agencies to direct people to the National Retro Scheme.
Some of those funded organizations get huge amount of money.
One of them gets half a million dollars a year.
For how many?
20 % of the applicants.
(09:51):
Come from those 45 agencies.
has been a recent review of the national redress scheme.
It was released last year, as I understand it.
And there were some criticisms of the way the redress scheme had been functioning.
What do you think about what was found?
(10:11):
Have the recommendations that were made been implemented?
I think the inclusion of incarcerated people was one.
April there was some legislation introduced which impacted on people in custody.
That's right.
Because they'd previously been excluded from the were.
So that's going to add to the number of applicants.
(10:33):
Do you think that's a good thing?
I do.
Otherwise they're being penalised twice.
Yeah, absolutely.
jailed and they're deprived of, because a lot of people in custody are They've had a wrongstart in life.
They've had a very bad experience at an early stage.
A lot of the institutional abuse work that we do, the people have been or are in custody.
(10:56):
prisoners are treated differently.
I've seen that, you know, the way that they're compensated, caps and thresholds that don'tapply to other members of society.
have been referred to as the civil dead.
It's a double whammy for those is.
It's very terrible.
So flowing from some of the positive things that are happening.
(11:18):
Do you think that it's important to go to a person who, I mean, it's a bit like going tosee somebody for a bad outcome in a health setting.
Do you feel that it's an area where people really need to focus on this area of lawexclusively?
And if you do feel like that that is a good thing, why do you think that's so?
(11:42):
Look, I think it's important to have from a survivor's point of view, to haverepresentation of an experienced law firm in this area.
I know I've spoken to some firms that popped up and really they don't have too much of anidea of it.
They don't have the background that more established firms have.
They find this a bit when you're working in a specialised area where there's a lot ofactivity.
(12:08):
that people like the sound of it and think they need to get involved.
But it requires commitment and specialist knowledge.
you really need to be aware of the trends and what the courts have been deciding.
There's a lot happening.
mean, there are a lot of very significant cases that have been delivered in the last 12months that I can obviously It's huge area.
(12:34):
It's a of a minefield for inexperienced.
Yes, it's not for, and it's also an area of law which some many people might findconfronting.
you you're dealing with vulnerable individuals and so the lawyers do need to have a degreeof resilience and there need to be supportive structures in place at the firms where the
(12:56):
work is being done because in order to support others who undergo terrible trauma, theyhave to be in a position to be able to help.
people and be as resilient as possible.
Yeah, I think there's a turnover of legal staff too because of the nature of the work.
know, it does have, I'm sure it does have an impact on them.
(13:19):
Yeah, and a lot is said and written about that, vicarious trauma.
That's right.
But it's not, I think it's important to make the point that it's not just institution, Imean, certainly people who practice in the area of institutional abuse.
will find the work traumatising, but there are many areas of legal practice that can evokethat feeling.
(13:42):
think the, you you mentioned about changes to the National Rudra Scheme.
I gave evidence about the nature of the matrix that they have.
It's sort of like a table of, you know, one size doesn't fit everybody is what I'm tryingto say.
You know, what impacts one person hugely may not be.
(14:04):
a significant someone else and yet the compensation level is the same.
You know, it's different for individuals.
It's a blunt instrument as they say.
Yes.
And I find myself saying to clients every day, it's not adequate.
It's, you know, the compensation that you're going to receive and you can give adviceabout the likely range in the types of.
(14:33):
work that we do.
It's the system we have.
The system could be better, but it's the system that we have.
And the important thing is to agitate and advocate for changes to the law where it'snecessary to do.
think the NRS has got a cap of $150,000, whereas people have heightened expectations.
(14:55):
If they don't do the NRS and they go civil claim, maybe they'll do better.
I don't know.
Hard to say, but then you're confronted with all of the obstacles that are put up by theinstitutions.
mean, we've had permanent stay applications and all this kind of stuff.
in relation to that, there's been a very significant case that's really altered the legallandscape this year, handed down by the High Court, which has opened things up.
(15:21):
And yes, again, because I encounter it as a health and medical lawyer that you expect thatobstacles are going to be put in the way.
of your clients who have very deserving cases and you've just got to be tough and fightand go the distance with your clients.
You've got to be persistent.
you do.
And know what's likely to happen because they all must get together and say, you know,we're finding this a good strategy in our cases.
(15:49):
So it's good to have that collegiality within the legal practices that do work in aparticular area.
And we may have that in Newcastle.
I did suggest that at our December meeting and I said, well, you know, need to gettogether and share the knowledge that you have in particular instances where you've had
(16:09):
some degree of success or there's, you know, so it assists others because as you say, ifthey're not, you know, you need specialists to do the proper job.
do the work and you really need to be able to
share experiences and you're not going to do the work properly unless you are open to thatsort of approach.
(16:34):
So not everybody, mean, I think people are generally, they hear about cases going to courtand they instantly kind of stiffen up and become anxious.
A lot of cases that are brought against the church or against DCJ, Department of CommunityJustice or schools.
Department of Education don't ever get heard in a courtroom.
(16:59):
And I suppose in the years that I've been practicing as a lawyer, I've seen a real shiftaway from cases that are heard in courtrooms to what we call alternative dispute
resolution.
So mediations and informal settlement conferences.
So you'd see the cases that you're aware of ending.
A lot of them would they be resolved away from the courtroom?
(17:23):
Is that your experience?
That's the current trend, think.
it's a good thing?
It's a good thing.
It is a good thing.
No one wants to run a case and lose it after they've been through the trauma of, like youdon't want to another traumatic experience.
for survivors as well.
It's less traumatic for them too.
Yes.
(17:43):
It's certain.
There are no appeals.
Yeah.
And they're not always successful, of course, but
The mediations.
But I think it is a better way.
Sometimes you can use the vehicle of the case for an apology.
We did a case for some indigenous clients in Western New South Wales last week and therewas an apology given by the defendant in that
(18:11):
case.
And I think that's very important.
It tends not to happen when you go the full distance in a court case.
You live in regional New South Wales.
I practice in regional New South Wales.
I'm aware of the instance of, from regional lawyers that I know that it's an uncommon areaof legal practice.
(18:33):
And it would be really good to see how in the next
perhaps five to 10 years that can be changed because people in regional areas of thecountry really don't get the legal services they need.
We need to focus our energy on bringing avenues of support and work and access to legalservices available to people who live outside of the cities.
(19:00):
We've got three projects which we have funding.
up to a point we have funding for.
One is the Women Survivors Support Group that runs under the CAN umbrella for femalesurvivors of sexual abuse in a religious context.
That's running quite successfully and that will be funded now for some sort of retreattype weekend support.
(19:34):
We've got funding to run two of those.
are they away from, they're in the Hunter Valley for example?
Well, probably, but that's to be determined by the groups themselves.
So it's the women themselves that will make the decision and we'll put a steeringcommittee there of survivor women to determine what they want and how they want to do it.
(19:59):
They'll be invited.
speakers perhaps or know activities over the weekend for them if it's a weekend.
But that's up to them to determine.
The second funding project is a continuation of the mapping project where the pedophilenetworks have been you know clergy or Maris or whoever have been you know come to a
(20:23):
certain place.
You why did they come here, why did they go there and what the impact was.
So we've got these
researchers with the maps and you've got all these connecting lines and places, you know.
How long has that been going on this system?
It's been going on for some time because of a lack of funding.
(20:44):
Kathleen McPhillips is leading that with Jodie McDeath and Ruth Delafour, three doctors ofvarious criminology and all that sort of stuff.
Right.
That's, you've got funding now and we'll be going to the regional centres in the MaitlandNewcastle and Manning regions.
(21:04):
And how do get the word out about what you're doing in regional New South Wales?
Well, we'll be relying on, the idea is to conduct public meetings in central places, youknow, to say, well, we're coming to wherever and other organisations will do the publicity
in that region for us.
That's what I'm told.
(21:26):
That's in the development stages.
network.
Yes.
Also, we have some funding for collaborative activities with the Ballarat Survivor Group.
either we'll go there or they'll come here, or maybe we'll do two sort of sessions wherewe get to meet one another face to face and talk about what works best for them and what
(21:51):
works best for us.
just improve the service that we provide and they do as well, you know, so that we do havea knowledge of them, but we don't sort of have face-to-face contact.
So that's going to happen.
Just finishing off then Bob, what advice would you have for people who may be thinkingabout pursuing, not just sitting on what has happened to them, where would you advocate
(22:19):
people going to first?
Look, I think,
First of all, they need to confide in their loved ones and say, is my story and I want todo something about it.
We provide, as Chanel would say, a soft entry to this service that we provide.
Chanel being the- She's now our manager for clergy abuse network.
(22:44):
The employee that you referred to earlier.
Yes, yes.
And have a look at our website.
You'll see the friendly faces on there as well.
Two phone numbers, one is mine, the other is Chanel and give us a call.
Yes, well that's very, very accessible.
The first entry point is very soft, not a big crowd of people or anything, just maybe twoof us.
(23:08):
Maybe just one, it just depends on the individual.
Depends on the individual circumstances.
As with all of the episodes that we produce on this podcast, there'll be some links.
that we'll make available to your website, the Facebook page.
do, you produce some material.
You've held some good events, but as you say, they're generally closed events for thosewho have been affected.
(23:35):
The other thing that needs to be said is that you are a charitable organization and aregistered charity, so people can donate.
can.
to CAN and continue the good work that you do.
Thank you.
So thank you so much for being available.
my pleasure.
And it's always great to see you and to talk to you and thank you for all that you do.
(23:56):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Law Matters.
I'd also like to thank Bob O'Toole from Clergy Abused Network and for all the advocacythat he has done and for so long a period.
(24:17):
If this episode has raised issues for you, support is available by calling Lifeline on 1311 14.
And you can find more about CAN at clergyabusednetwork.org.au.
I'm Catherine Henry of Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
(24:37):
If you need help with redress or institutional abuse or matter, please get in touch.
This podcast was produced by Pod and Pen Productions.
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