June 25, 2025 • 29 mins
***Content warning: This episode discusses institutional and child abuse. If you find this distressing, consider skipping the episode or listening at another time. For support, you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14. Additional support contacts are listed below.***
It’s been over seven years since the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse handed down its final report. Victim-survivors say they had hoped organisations would have “lent into their mistakes” by now.
In this episode of Law Matters, Institutional Abuse Practice Lead Associate Nathan Buyers speaks with journalist and social philospher Anne Manne about her 2024 book, Crimes of the Cross: The Anglican Paedophile Network of Newcastle, Its Protectors and the Man Who Fought for Justice, which lays bare the decades-long cover-up of child sexual abuse within the Anglican Diocese of Newcastle.
Nathan and Anne discuss:
- Why Anne felt compelled to write this book, despite its difficult subject matter.
- How the legal system has affected survivors.
- Why Anne believes the church has been obstructionist.
Disclaimer
While this podcast is aimed to be informative, it is not intended to be a substitute for legal advice. You should see a solicitor for complete advice that relates directly to your situation.
For support, please reach out to the following services:
- Lifeline – Free 24/7 suicide prevention and crisis support for all Australians – 13 11 14.
- Clergy Abused Network – a network of trauma-informed and sensitive volunteers who share the experience of being impacted by abuse by clergy or abuse by lay workers in religious contexts.
- National Sexual Assault, Domestic Family Violence Counselling Service – available for free, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to support people impacted by domestic, family or sexual violence - 1800RESPECT, 1800 737 732.
- Blue Knot Helpline – provides information and support for anyone who is affected by complex trauma, Monday - Sunday between 9 am - 5 pm AEST/AEDT – 1300 657 380.
For more information, please visit:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
It's over seven years since the child sexual abuse royal commission handed down its finalreport.
Victim survivors like Lawrie Donaldson, who was abused in the 1970s in Townsville, saythat they had hoped that the church would have leant into their mistakes by now, that he
did not see this happening, that instead he sees that the church's concerns continue to befor their reputations and standing, and not at all for the victim survivors.
(00:26):
Australian Centre of Child Protection director Leah Bromfield calls this a second wave ofinstitutional betrayal.
That after an initial wave of apologies, even from the recently deceased Pope Francis,that victims survivors are really noticing that we're losing ground.
That organisations that apologised in the past are going back to taking a very litigiousresponse by protecting their bottom line and protecting perpetrators.
(00:51):
Their case was made even harder last year by the High Court's finding that a priest wasnot an employee of the church and that therefore the church cannot be held indirectly
liable for the actions of an abusive clergy member.
The decision has been described as a shocking blow to victim survivors.
All the more reason for their ongoing stories to continue to be told to an audience thatmay have grown either complacent or unknowing about horrific events that continue to
(01:19):
impact individuals.
communities and professions to this day.
This episode does just that with a conversation between journalist and social philosopher,Anne Manne, and Nathan Buyers, an associate in the firm's health law and institutional
abuse teams.
It's not an easy lesson, but it's an incredibly important one.
(01:40):
And as usual in conversations about this difficult material, I warn you that some of theinformation you're about to hear may be triggering and that listener discretion is
advised.
Hello, I'm Nathan Buyers.
I'm an associate solicitor with Catherine Henry Lawyers and I specialize in health law andinstitutional abuse matters.
(02:02):
In this role over the years, I've worked with countless survivors of institutional abuseoccurring in a wide range of different settings.
As flagged by our principal Catherine in her introduction, despite the Royal Commissioninto Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse wrapping up around six to seven years
ago,
Child sexual abuse has not gone away and the effects of historical abuse continue to markour communities in really meaningful and often tragic ways.
(02:28):
To this day, legal battles around liability, recompense and restoration continue, which iswhy we need people like journalist and social philosopher Anne Manne to write books like
her 2024 publication, Crimes of the Cross.
The book contains stories which hit particularly close to home here in Newcastle.
In Anne's words,
The book details a sinister pedophile ring of priests demonic in their cruelty, supportedby a grey network of protectors.
(02:55):
So, what has Anne's research led her to uncover, and what does this have to say about theongoing fight for victim survivors?
Let's find out.
Anne, welcome to Law Matters.
Lovely to be with you.
At what point did you realize that you had to write Crimes of the Cross?
Well, I was writing a book on the Royal Commission and I was going to select about six toeight case studies and I was following it oh with great attention.
(03:20):
I started to write about child sexual abuse first in the Catholic Church in 2013.
But then in 2016, there was a program on 7.30 on the ABC, which highlighted thisextraordinary case in Newcastle and it had some of the main players being interviewed,
(03:41):
like
Greg Thompson, the bishop at that time, and John Cleary, was the business manager, whowere whistleblowers.
And also it had numbers of the survivors, including Paul Gray and some others.
So it was the most terrible stories that they told.
And I suddenly thought, no, this is the story I have to tell.
(04:03):
And I flew up, normally I'm a planner, not a impulsive person.
So it was surprising.
Within a few hours, I booked everything and I was heading to Newcastle to listen to case42, which was on the Anglicans.
I was also interested in making the whole story about child sexual abuse be broadened outand go beyond just the Catholic Church because it was clear to me through looking at all
(04:33):
those case studies that it went much beyond the Catholic Church as dreadful as they were.
But immediately it was obvious that this was more than just individual perpetrators, aswas often the case in the Catholics.
This was a network and where two key players in particular, Peter Rushton and who was anarchdeacon, a very powerful, dominant, charismatic man, and particularly Graham Lawrence,
(05:00):
who was the Dean of the Cathedral uh and also powerful, domineering, dominant andcharismatic, very, very popular.
uh
priest had actually controlled the diocese and had controlled all the disciplinarycommittees and had presided over a state of affairs where what the royal commission
eventually called weak and ineffectual bishops had done nothing to prosecute the cases ofchild sexual abuse which were passing beneath their eyes or where people were telling them
(05:30):
about them.
So yeah, that was why I wanted to talk about it.
thought this was
A story that more than any of the others, you can actually get to the structures of powerunderneath and that you could begin to understand how it all happened as well as why it
happened.
Yeah, absolutely.
Was there anything in particular that you hoped to achieve by writing the book and do youthink that that's happened?
(05:54):
Well, I think the key decision I made, which was not even really a decision, I was justcompelled to write it, was to work with Steve Smith, this very uh extraordinarily brave
survivor who's at the center of the book, and place his story at the very core of the bookso that you can follow not only what happened to him as a child and then the aftermath,
(06:20):
and you could come up.
close, if you like, to what happens to a victim survivor.
But then you could see his journey threading through trying to get the institution torespond to the horrors that had happened to him.
was abused very severely over a period from the age of 10 to 14 by a priest called GeorgeParker.
(06:44):
This story just absolutely riveted me, and because Steve had gone on battling.
By the time I first knew of this in 2016, it was a battle over 40 years, more than 40years.
But by now, it's coming up to 50 years and he never gave up.
And soon as he's finished one battle, he starts another.
(07:05):
So it was this extraordinary spirit in a place of absolute darkness.
yeah, that was, think the, and I wanted people to come and care about Steve.
to feel empathy for him, to understand what had happened to him by recreating the storyfirst of his idyllic childhood and then the abuse and what happened in the aftermath.
(07:29):
How much of your horror at what occurred in and around Newcastle to people like SteveSmith was exacerbated not only by what happened to them as children, but what happened to
them subsequently within the broader Anglican community and then the legal system as well?
absolutely.
Steve always said that the aftermath of battling the church with their at first utterindifference, um cruelty, ostracism, one woman came up and spat on him and said that he
(07:59):
was nothing but a troublemaker.
He got death threats.
He had a bullet left on his step.
He had all night abusive messages threatening him, kids and grandkids.
you know, it was absolutely vicious.
response from not just the pedophiles of their associates, but the Anglican community wasoften very hostile to people like Steve, as if they were kind of vandals causing trouble
(08:32):
in the church and wrecking the church.
So I think that's a very important part of it.
You always said was the abuse.
that he suffered there trying to get justice from the church was as bad as the abuse.
And I think a lot of the survivors would echo that.
So up until about 2004, when there was some church legislation, an ordinance which waspassed to create a new system of professional standards, which really did change the rules
(09:04):
of the game.
Up until then, there had been nothing but denial, shutdown, abuse, anger.
So for example, Steve and his mother, when he finally told her in 1975, this extremelydevout and uh very lovely, caring, decent woman went to see her bishop who was then Bishop
(09:28):
Shevel.
And Bishop Shevel was known, and I'm quoting, to blast anybody who made a criticism.
of section misconduct by priests from one end of Bishop's Court, which is the grandresidence he lived in, from one end of Bishop's Court to the other.
And that happened to Steve's mother and she came out just sobbing and beside herself eventhough she was quite a stoical person.
(09:52):
And then there were various other efforts that Steve made to tell people, includingAssistant Bishop Appleby, and then he rang during the 1990s twice to
what he understood to be the Anglican hotline.
And he was in a state of high distress about what had happened.
He just couldn't get over what had happened to him.
(10:14):
And he encountered Graham Lawrence, who as we know has spent considerable years in prisonfor pedophilia himself, for abusing a boy in 1991.
But there are many other cases too of complaints against Graham Lawrence.
So, you know, that's the structure that
is so powerful.
(10:35):
I think one of the things I wanted to emphasize in the book, which is what I understoodimmediately when I went to Newcastle and walked around this quadrangle where you've got
the Newcastle Gentleman's Club, the Newcastle um Cathedral, this beautiful, very grandcathedral which is above the town in every way, um the deanery where the dean of the
(10:58):
cathedral lives, and Newcastle Grammar.
So it's quite a
a kind of posh area of Newcastle.
And I thought this is all to do with the power structure of Newcastle.
And I knew that many of the main players who were um like Graham Lawrence um involved inthe very network itself, or in other cases were acolytes of his and supporters and
(11:22):
wouldn't believe anything that was said about him, which made, of course, uh a kind ofimpenetrable cultural fortress against
those like Steve who were trying to say that the edifice was rotten and behind it was thisterrible abuse and exploitation of children.
You've mentioned the obstructionism of the church and I think in your words you've calledthem team church within the book.
(11:48):
uh Is there something that you, is there a reason that you think that the church was soobstructionist?
I mean beyond the obvious reasons, is there something culturally there that caused thatobstructionism to sort of uh pervade the church?
I think that's interesting.
Steve bought his abuser to trial in 2001.
(12:12):
The culture of team church, which is where I introduced that concept, was so strong.
None of them had to sit around a table and say, well, who will we support, the priest orthe survivor?
There was just no question.
You supported the priest.
He was part of team church and the survivor, even though Steve came from a very devoutfamily who were
(12:33):
the lynchpin of the church, faith community down at Edgeworth when he was a child.
Nonetheless, they weren't even considered.
No one reached out, there was no pastoral care, nothing.
These were like wrecking balls coming to damage the church's reputation and also thereputation of the individual priest.
(12:56):
Beyond reputational damage, think there's something about a culture which is
It becomes as natural as you breathe to think certain things.
It's everyday thinking as usual.
It was everyday thinking as usual to protect the priest and to do everything to discreditSteve and his brother who'd also brought um a complaint.
(13:20):
There seemed to be no end of the lengths that they were prepared to go.
One of the things they did was to bring in a registered book which showed where the priesthad been.
and uh whether or not it was possible that he could have abused the boys.
And it never really provided an alibi, but it was crossed out and altered.
(13:43):
And it turned out that the main solicitor on the case, who was also a very um significantchurch functionary on lots of committees and so on, someone called Keith Allen, um he had
been in possession of this registered by himself.
and could have altered it.
And then Peter Mitchell, who was prosecuted and jailed for defrauding a diocese of$200,000 in 2002, he was also um left in charge of the document and um could have altered
(14:18):
it.
The Royal Commission didn't come to a conclusion as to who did because they couldn'treally m get as far as that.
But clearly this document had been altered.
And even before that, when the police
tried to ring and find out where George Parker was now or where he had been in 1975.
(14:38):
They said that they didn't know when actually they have records which go right back to waybeyond that.
They have records of every priest where they were when they had a license to practice.
And they could have given this information freely and straight away to the police, butthey didn't do so.
It was for these reasons that
(14:59):
the Royal Commission called it deliberate obstruction because it was.
mean, when you're over what happened at that trial and the way they behaved, trulyextraordinary for uh an institution purporting to care about moral behavior um to see that
behavior.
uh
And we've touched on a little bit so far uh how legal pathways for victim survivors can beextremely difficult.
(15:25):
You have also detailed in your book, many survivors that have persisted nonetheless.
Steve Smith is quoted as saying, if something is wrong, it's wrong.
You have just got to keep on fighting.
Don't ever give up.
From speaking with survivors and their legal representatives yourself, what do you thinkspurs them to be able to continue their fight despite the inherent difficulty?
(15:45):
What could be done better by both the legal system and the community at large to help themwith their fire?
think the ideal of justice is a beautiful thing.
I think that it's something of great beauty which sustains people when they know injusticehas been done.
That's a very deep thing in human beings and it's very deep in Steve.
(16:11):
I find it completely inspiring.
People often ask me, did you keep going with such um difficult material, emotionallyharrowing material?
But that's why, because
when you're confronted with betrayal and institutional betrayal, betrayal of the justicesystem, it's really sort of, you know, the way to defeat that is for people to go on
(16:35):
fighting and to draw it to people's attention and to shine a light there where there'sbeen darkness previously.
It's something I really particularly um find difficult to put up with or to cope with.
And that's denialism, where people are saying, no, that didn't happen.
And that's been a very common response to people who come forward about child sexualabuse.
(17:01):
um It's why I put uh just enough, I think, of the detail of Steve's abuse so people are inno um doubt as to the horror of what happened to him and by implication, the horror of
what happens to uh other victim survivors as well.
But I think that you cannot just let it go.
(17:22):
I so deeply, profoundly agree with Steve.
um And I think that's what attracted me to telling his story.
And in particular, there are many other brave survivors too in Newcastle.
they, all of them would say something like when I interviewed them, I don't want this tohappen to other children.
So there's something, a kind of deep pro-social impulse which can come out of that.
(17:45):
And I find it inspiring, impressive, moving.
touching just, yeah, I think it's absolutely remarkable.
And I think it's a really very important function of a writer or a journalist to be ableto, like the Royal Commission did, but in a different way, more readable, easier for
(18:06):
people to read, is to bear witness to what happened and therefore travel with the survivorin their journey to bring these crimes to people's attention.
It's just too easy to say,
I'm too sensitive to read that or I'm not talking about people who are genuinely triggeredbecause they have sexual abuse histories themselves or sexual assault.
(18:27):
I'm talking about just the general thing of wanting to turn away from something that'sunpleasant or it's, you know, you have to open yourself emotionally and epithetically to
come to understand it.
And I think, I think the Royal commission did that really well.
opened our hearts and our minds for five years.
Yeah, absolutely.
(18:48):
And we talked a little bit about Crimes of the Cross being described as an emotionallydifficult read, um as is one quote that we've seen.
I can only imagine it was even more difficult to research for and write the book itselffor you.
So is there anything in particular you feel that you've taken with you from the experiencepersonally?
(19:09):
just a very profound courage of people when all the light seems to have gone out of theworld, but they can keep on going and they keep on having faith and determination that
things can change.
uh I very deeply want to record that and I want to record that a form of fighting againstinstitutional betrayal, which is what's happened here, and that people can
(19:38):
get justice in different ways, even if the legal system fails them as indeed it did in2001 for Steve.
And also that very good people can come forward and there were many good people in theNewcastle story who did fight against what the institution um and the legal system had
done.
You've spoken of heroes in your book too.
(19:59):
People like Sydney Anglican Barrister Garth Blake Senior Council, former Anglican Bishopof Newcastle Greg Thompson, and former policeman Michael Elliott, who's now the
professional standards director for the Newcastle Diocese.
Could you tell us why you wanted to highlight their roles in this story?
Well, there's so much darkness.
It's also important to shine the light on those who are coming forward and standing up.
(20:24):
And they were really important, particularly, let's say, Michael Elliott.
There's another one, John Cleary, who was a business manager.
um And the strength that he showed when there was so much resistance, this is MichaelElliott, incredible resistance to him exposing.
(20:44):
how much child sexual abuse had been in Newcastle.
So there was a real fury when uh Peter Rushton, who was a great favourite of the dioceseand seemed to be one of the great figures in Newcastle Anglicanism, when he was exposed as
a prolific serial uh child sexual abuser.
(21:05):
And there was equal anger and pushback and resistance and opposition when Graham Lawrencewas outed as well.
So
This was just a great battle, a battle royal in the diocese.
And many people resisted thinking that any of this was true.
So yeah, again, that's a very inspiring story of courage.
(21:27):
Michael Elliott would have got death threats as well.
had his children's fly screens taken away from the windows, as if to say, we know whereyour children sleep.
He had his dog taken, never to be seen again.
Death threats regularly and so on.
uh
It's again, just tremendous courage.
John Cleary had a death threat just before he gave evidence in the Supreme Court about theGraham Lawrence case, because Graham Lawrence and another priest had taken um their
(21:57):
diffrocking to the Supreme Court where they lost.
But nonetheless, had a death threat.
John Cleary had a death threat just before he gave evidence.
So this was extraordinarily nasty.
many people um refused to believe a lot of it was true.
So that was something that galvanized those who just kept coming.
(22:22):
They still had to turn up to work the next morning, whatever had come across um their deskor their phone or email, whatever.
And they had to keep on fighting for uh a regime where by children are uh much safer andwhereby you can actually defrock priests who are
(22:42):
guilty of child sexual abuse and instead of breaking up this dreadful network thatoperated for so long.
As I'm sure you're aware, a landmark decision late last year has caused some shockwaves inthe institutional abuse space with the High Court finding that the Catholic Church could
not be held vicariously liable for historical child sexual abuse perpetrated by a priestas, despite being under their direction, he was not technically an employee.
(23:07):
Do you think that the news of adverse legal decisions for abuse survivors like this onehas stopped other survivors from coming forward and seeking justice?
I'm sure that's true, sadly, dreadfully, devastatingly.
Yes, that's true.
And this also harms those who already have a case in train.
How the High Court could have come to that decision.
(23:29):
I know that in Canada, ah it was able to make a judgment that there was something akin toemployment and clearly, how can you, the actual case which prompted the High Court
decision had gone through.
the Victorian appeals and Supreme Court and then had gone to the high court.
But it was the Catholic Church fighting to not be responsible for an assistant priestabusing a five-year-old child.
(23:58):
Yeah, really dreadful and devastating.
And when it was said that, well, legislation can change this, that's true.
And all of us have to get behind changes to legislation.
That has to be a nationwide campaign.
um
And there are already people like Judy Gordon and others who are fighting for that.
(24:18):
uh this is something that's actually quite difficult to do.
So yes, you're right, Nathan.
And I fear that it will have an effect on people.
know that with adult sexual assault cases, an assault victim has a very hard time incourt, it affects them badly.
(24:40):
On a little bit of a more hopeful note, of course, we have that High Court decision whichestablished that vicarious liability has become much more difficult for victim survivors
to establish.
It is still open to abuse survivors to seek compensation for direct negligence by thechurch, resulting in the abuse.
Without going into the detailed legal principles, this is to say that there is hope forsurvivors who were abused historically in a church setting.
(25:06):
to to fight for justice.
Do you think enough is being done to convey these messages to survivors and to encouragethem across the board to go out and investigate and pursue their rights despite uh some of
the shortcomings in the news stories?
Well, I think that the culture has been, I'm just going to give you a very short historyof what I think the culture has been.
(25:30):
The first through the 70s, 80s, 90s and into the 2000s has been a wholesale denial of thenature of child sexual abuse.
And there's a reluctance for many people to even admit that it exists.
So that was the dominant cultural mood, if you like.
(25:51):
Then that changed and particularly changed around the Royal Commission and before that thecampaign for the Royal Commission and then through the Royal Commission.
So this was a cultural happening of enormous importance to the Royal Commission with thisopening of a space, a cultural space, whereby people who were victim survivors were able
(26:11):
to come forward, be treated very respectfully, to be listened to, to weep openly in court.
ah There was a very moving moment in the case 42 where Paul Gray just wept.
This grief over what had happened was received by those who were listening, who werepresent in the courtroom with very great respect.
(26:37):
That's an enormous achievement that change.
But what I fear now is that we're closing over again and people are returning to.
oh
The High Court decision would be one of those, it would be an example in the, there's amood of foot which says, we've dealt with child sexual abuse.
When actually many people are still coming forward.
(26:59):
There's a mood of foot which says, we've heard about that.
We don't want to hear about it again.
Whereas I think we've got to go beside the survivors, beside them all the way to wheneverthey want to stop talking about it.
um that we go along with just the first telling of it or alternatively expect them to havea trajectory of triumph and recovery.
(27:27):
Because for some people, there's going to be backwards and forwards in their life, in andout of um a trauma and recovery.
So I think we need to continually reopen that space um and recreate the conditions.
of an ethical kind of listening um and the kind of empathetic reception um of people'sstories of child sexual abuse.
(27:56):
And I think that overall culture will help those who want to come forward and because theyknow that they're going to get the kind of respect that they deserve when they tell their
stories in court.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's all the time we have for today.
Thank you so much, Anne, for giving us your time today and also for your extraordinarywork in this space.
(28:17):
Thank you, Nathan.
It's a pleasure.
I hope you got a lot out of this episode of Law Matters.
Thank you to both Nathan Buyers and Ann Manne for their time and for their expertise.
If this episode has raised issues for you, support is available by calling Lifeline on 1311 14.
(28:41):
And you can find more about the clergy abuse network at clergyabusednetwork.org.au.
I'm Catherine Henry of Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
If you need help with redress or an institutional abuse law matter, please contact my teamat Katherine Henry Lawyers.
This podcast was produced by Pod and Pen Productions.
It's over seven years since the child sexual abuse royal commission handed down its finalreport.
Victim survivors like Lawrie Donaldson, who was abused in the 1970s in Townsville, saythat they had hoped that the church would have leant into their mistakes by now, that he
did not see this happening, that instead he sees that the church's concerns continue to befor their reputations and standing, and not at all for the victim survivors.
(00:26):
Australian Centre of Child Protection director Leah Bromfield calls this a second wave ofinstitutional betrayal.
That after an initial wave of apologies, even from the recently deceased Pope Francis,that victims survivors are really noticing that we're losing ground.
That organisations that apologised in the past are going back to taking a very litigiousresponse by protecting their bottom line and protecting perpetrators.
(00:51):
Their case was made even harder last year by the High Court's finding that a priest wasnot an employee of the church and that therefore the church cannot be held indirectly
liable for the actions of an abusive clergy member.
The decision has been described as a shocking blow to victim survivors.
All the more reason for their ongoing stories to continue to be told to an audience thatmay have grown either complacent or unknowing about horrific events that continue to
(01:19):
impact individuals.
communities and professions to this day.
This episode does just that with a conversation between journalist and social philosopher,Anne Manne, and Nathan Buyers, an associate in the firm's health law and institutional
abuse teams.
It's not an easy lesson, but it's an incredibly important one.
(01:40):
And as usual in conversations about this difficult material, I warn you that some of theinformation you're about to hear may be triggering and that listener discretion is
advised.
Hello, I'm Nathan Buyers.
I'm an associate solicitor with Catherine Henry Lawyers and I specialize in health law andinstitutional abuse matters.
(02:02):
In this role over the years, I've worked with countless survivors of institutional abuseoccurring in a wide range of different settings.
As flagged by our principal Catherine in her introduction, despite the Royal Commissioninto Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse wrapping up around six to seven years
ago,
Child sexual abuse has not gone away and the effects of historical abuse continue to markour communities in really meaningful and often tragic ways.
(02:28):
To this day, legal battles around liability, recompense and restoration continue, which iswhy we need people like journalist and social philosopher Anne Manne to write books like
her 2024 publication, Crimes of the Cross.
The book contains stories which hit particularly close to home here in Newcastle.
In Anne's words,
The book details a sinister pedophile ring of priests demonic in their cruelty, supportedby a grey network of protectors.
(02:55):
So, what has Anne's research led her to uncover, and what does this have to say about theongoing fight for victim survivors?
Let's find out.
Anne, welcome to Law Matters.
Lovely to be with you.
At what point did you realize that you had to write Crimes of the Cross?
Well, I was writing a book on the Royal Commission and I was going to select about six toeight case studies and I was following it oh with great attention.
(03:20):
I started to write about child sexual abuse first in the Catholic Church in 2013.
But then in 2016, there was a program on 7.30 on the ABC, which highlighted thisextraordinary case in Newcastle and it had some of the main players being interviewed,
(03:41):
like
Greg Thompson, the bishop at that time, and John Cleary, was the business manager, whowere whistleblowers.
And also it had numbers of the survivors, including Paul Gray and some others.
So it was the most terrible stories that they told.
And I suddenly thought, no, this is the story I have to tell.
(04:03):
And I flew up, normally I'm a planner, not a impulsive person.
So it was surprising.
Within a few hours, I booked everything and I was heading to Newcastle to listen to case42, which was on the Anglicans.
I was also interested in making the whole story about child sexual abuse be broadened outand go beyond just the Catholic Church because it was clear to me through looking at all
(04:33):
those case studies that it went much beyond the Catholic Church as dreadful as they were.
But immediately it was obvious that this was more than just individual perpetrators, aswas often the case in the Catholics.
This was a network and where two key players in particular, Peter Rushton and who was anarchdeacon, a very powerful, dominant, charismatic man, and particularly Graham Lawrence,
(05:00):
who was the Dean of the Cathedral uh and also powerful, domineering, dominant andcharismatic, very, very popular.
uh
priest had actually controlled the diocese and had controlled all the disciplinarycommittees and had presided over a state of affairs where what the royal commission
eventually called weak and ineffectual bishops had done nothing to prosecute the cases ofchild sexual abuse which were passing beneath their eyes or where people were telling them
(05:30):
about them.
So yeah, that was why I wanted to talk about it.
thought this was
A story that more than any of the others, you can actually get to the structures of powerunderneath and that you could begin to understand how it all happened as well as why it
happened.
Yeah, absolutely.
Was there anything in particular that you hoped to achieve by writing the book and do youthink that that's happened?
(05:54):
Well, I think the key decision I made, which was not even really a decision, I was justcompelled to write it, was to work with Steve Smith, this very uh extraordinarily brave
survivor who's at the center of the book, and place his story at the very core of the bookso that you can follow not only what happened to him as a child and then the aftermath,
(06:20):
and you could come up.
close, if you like, to what happens to a victim survivor.
But then you could see his journey threading through trying to get the institution torespond to the horrors that had happened to him.
was abused very severely over a period from the age of 10 to 14 by a priest called GeorgeParker.
(06:44):
This story just absolutely riveted me, and because Steve had gone on battling.
By the time I first knew of this in 2016, it was a battle over 40 years, more than 40years.
But by now, it's coming up to 50 years and he never gave up.
And soon as he's finished one battle, he starts another.
(07:05):
So it was this extraordinary spirit in a place of absolute darkness.
yeah, that was, think the, and I wanted people to come and care about Steve.
to feel empathy for him, to understand what had happened to him by recreating the storyfirst of his idyllic childhood and then the abuse and what happened in the aftermath.
(07:29):
How much of your horror at what occurred in and around Newcastle to people like SteveSmith was exacerbated not only by what happened to them as children, but what happened to
them subsequently within the broader Anglican community and then the legal system as well?
absolutely.
Steve always said that the aftermath of battling the church with their at first utterindifference, um cruelty, ostracism, one woman came up and spat on him and said that he
(07:59):
was nothing but a troublemaker.
He got death threats.
He had a bullet left on his step.
He had all night abusive messages threatening him, kids and grandkids.
you know, it was absolutely vicious.
response from not just the pedophiles of their associates, but the Anglican community wasoften very hostile to people like Steve, as if they were kind of vandals causing trouble
(08:32):
in the church and wrecking the church.
So I think that's a very important part of it.
You always said was the abuse.
that he suffered there trying to get justice from the church was as bad as the abuse.
And I think a lot of the survivors would echo that.
So up until about 2004, when there was some church legislation, an ordinance which waspassed to create a new system of professional standards, which really did change the rules
(09:04):
of the game.
Up until then, there had been nothing but denial, shutdown, abuse, anger.
So for example, Steve and his mother, when he finally told her in 1975, this extremelydevout and uh very lovely, caring, decent woman went to see her bishop who was then Bishop
(09:28):
Shevel.
And Bishop Shevel was known, and I'm quoting, to blast anybody who made a criticism.
of section misconduct by priests from one end of Bishop's Court, which is the grandresidence he lived in, from one end of Bishop's Court to the other.
And that happened to Steve's mother and she came out just sobbing and beside herself eventhough she was quite a stoical person.
(09:52):
And then there were various other efforts that Steve made to tell people, includingAssistant Bishop Appleby, and then he rang during the 1990s twice to
what he understood to be the Anglican hotline.
And he was in a state of high distress about what had happened.
He just couldn't get over what had happened to him.
(10:14):
And he encountered Graham Lawrence, who as we know has spent considerable years in prisonfor pedophilia himself, for abusing a boy in 1991.
But there are many other cases too of complaints against Graham Lawrence.
So, you know, that's the structure that
is so powerful.
(10:35):
I think one of the things I wanted to emphasize in the book, which is what I understoodimmediately when I went to Newcastle and walked around this quadrangle where you've got
the Newcastle Gentleman's Club, the Newcastle um Cathedral, this beautiful, very grandcathedral which is above the town in every way, um the deanery where the dean of the
(10:58):
cathedral lives, and Newcastle Grammar.
So it's quite a
a kind of posh area of Newcastle.
And I thought this is all to do with the power structure of Newcastle.
And I knew that many of the main players who were um like Graham Lawrence um involved inthe very network itself, or in other cases were acolytes of his and supporters and
(11:22):
wouldn't believe anything that was said about him, which made, of course, uh a kind ofimpenetrable cultural fortress against
those like Steve who were trying to say that the edifice was rotten and behind it was thisterrible abuse and exploitation of children.
You've mentioned the obstructionism of the church and I think in your words you've calledthem team church within the book.
(11:48):
uh Is there something that you, is there a reason that you think that the church was soobstructionist?
I mean beyond the obvious reasons, is there something culturally there that caused thatobstructionism to sort of uh pervade the church?
I think that's interesting.
Steve bought his abuser to trial in 2001.
(12:12):
The culture of team church, which is where I introduced that concept, was so strong.
None of them had to sit around a table and say, well, who will we support, the priest orthe survivor?
There was just no question.
You supported the priest.
He was part of team church and the survivor, even though Steve came from a very devoutfamily who were
(12:33):
the lynchpin of the church, faith community down at Edgeworth when he was a child.
Nonetheless, they weren't even considered.
No one reached out, there was no pastoral care, nothing.
These were like wrecking balls coming to damage the church's reputation and also thereputation of the individual priest.
(12:56):
Beyond reputational damage, think there's something about a culture which is
It becomes as natural as you breathe to think certain things.
It's everyday thinking as usual.
It was everyday thinking as usual to protect the priest and to do everything to discreditSteve and his brother who'd also brought um a complaint.
(13:20):
There seemed to be no end of the lengths that they were prepared to go.
One of the things they did was to bring in a registered book which showed where the priesthad been.
and uh whether or not it was possible that he could have abused the boys.
And it never really provided an alibi, but it was crossed out and altered.
(13:43):
And it turned out that the main solicitor on the case, who was also a very um significantchurch functionary on lots of committees and so on, someone called Keith Allen, um he had
been in possession of this registered by himself.
and could have altered it.
And then Peter Mitchell, who was prosecuted and jailed for defrauding a diocese of$200,000 in 2002, he was also um left in charge of the document and um could have altered
(14:18):
it.
The Royal Commission didn't come to a conclusion as to who did because they couldn'treally m get as far as that.
But clearly this document had been altered.
And even before that, when the police
tried to ring and find out where George Parker was now or where he had been in 1975.
(14:38):
They said that they didn't know when actually they have records which go right back to waybeyond that.
They have records of every priest where they were when they had a license to practice.
And they could have given this information freely and straight away to the police, butthey didn't do so.
It was for these reasons that
(14:59):
the Royal Commission called it deliberate obstruction because it was.
mean, when you're over what happened at that trial and the way they behaved, trulyextraordinary for uh an institution purporting to care about moral behavior um to see that
behavior.
uh
And we've touched on a little bit so far uh how legal pathways for victim survivors can beextremely difficult.
(15:25):
You have also detailed in your book, many survivors that have persisted nonetheless.
Steve Smith is quoted as saying, if something is wrong, it's wrong.
You have just got to keep on fighting.
Don't ever give up.
From speaking with survivors and their legal representatives yourself, what do you thinkspurs them to be able to continue their fight despite the inherent difficulty?
(15:45):
What could be done better by both the legal system and the community at large to help themwith their fire?
think the ideal of justice is a beautiful thing.
I think that it's something of great beauty which sustains people when they know injusticehas been done.
That's a very deep thing in human beings and it's very deep in Steve.
(16:11):
I find it completely inspiring.
People often ask me, did you keep going with such um difficult material, emotionallyharrowing material?
But that's why, because
when you're confronted with betrayal and institutional betrayal, betrayal of the justicesystem, it's really sort of, you know, the way to defeat that is for people to go on
(16:35):
fighting and to draw it to people's attention and to shine a light there where there'sbeen darkness previously.
It's something I really particularly um find difficult to put up with or to cope with.
And that's denialism, where people are saying, no, that didn't happen.
And that's been a very common response to people who come forward about child sexualabuse.
(17:01):
um It's why I put uh just enough, I think, of the detail of Steve's abuse so people are inno um doubt as to the horror of what happened to him and by implication, the horror of
what happens to uh other victim survivors as well.
But I think that you cannot just let it go.
(17:22):
I so deeply, profoundly agree with Steve.
um And I think that's what attracted me to telling his story.
And in particular, there are many other brave survivors too in Newcastle.
they, all of them would say something like when I interviewed them, I don't want this tohappen to other children.
So there's something, a kind of deep pro-social impulse which can come out of that.
(17:45):
And I find it inspiring, impressive, moving.
touching just, yeah, I think it's absolutely remarkable.
And I think it's a really very important function of a writer or a journalist to be ableto, like the Royal Commission did, but in a different way, more readable, easier for
(18:06):
people to read, is to bear witness to what happened and therefore travel with the survivorin their journey to bring these crimes to people's attention.
It's just too easy to say,
I'm too sensitive to read that or I'm not talking about people who are genuinely triggeredbecause they have sexual abuse histories themselves or sexual assault.
(18:27):
I'm talking about just the general thing of wanting to turn away from something that'sunpleasant or it's, you know, you have to open yourself emotionally and epithetically to
come to understand it.
And I think, I think the Royal commission did that really well.
opened our hearts and our minds for five years.
Yeah, absolutely.
(18:48):
And we talked a little bit about Crimes of the Cross being described as an emotionallydifficult read, um as is one quote that we've seen.
I can only imagine it was even more difficult to research for and write the book itselffor you.
So is there anything in particular you feel that you've taken with you from the experiencepersonally?
(19:09):
just a very profound courage of people when all the light seems to have gone out of theworld, but they can keep on going and they keep on having faith and determination that
things can change.
uh I very deeply want to record that and I want to record that a form of fighting againstinstitutional betrayal, which is what's happened here, and that people can
(19:38):
get justice in different ways, even if the legal system fails them as indeed it did in2001 for Steve.
And also that very good people can come forward and there were many good people in theNewcastle story who did fight against what the institution um and the legal system had
done.
You've spoken of heroes in your book too.
(19:59):
People like Sydney Anglican Barrister Garth Blake Senior Council, former Anglican Bishopof Newcastle Greg Thompson, and former policeman Michael Elliott, who's now the
professional standards director for the Newcastle Diocese.
Could you tell us why you wanted to highlight their roles in this story?
Well, there's so much darkness.
It's also important to shine the light on those who are coming forward and standing up.
(20:24):
And they were really important, particularly, let's say, Michael Elliott.
There's another one, John Cleary, who was a business manager.
um And the strength that he showed when there was so much resistance, this is MichaelElliott, incredible resistance to him exposing.
(20:44):
how much child sexual abuse had been in Newcastle.
So there was a real fury when uh Peter Rushton, who was a great favourite of the dioceseand seemed to be one of the great figures in Newcastle Anglicanism, when he was exposed as
a prolific serial uh child sexual abuser.
(21:05):
And there was equal anger and pushback and resistance and opposition when Graham Lawrencewas outed as well.
So
This was just a great battle, a battle royal in the diocese.
And many people resisted thinking that any of this was true.
So yeah, again, that's a very inspiring story of courage.
(21:27):
Michael Elliott would have got death threats as well.
had his children's fly screens taken away from the windows, as if to say, we know whereyour children sleep.
He had his dog taken, never to be seen again.
Death threats regularly and so on.
uh
It's again, just tremendous courage.
John Cleary had a death threat just before he gave evidence in the Supreme Court about theGraham Lawrence case, because Graham Lawrence and another priest had taken um their
(21:57):
diffrocking to the Supreme Court where they lost.
But nonetheless, had a death threat.
John Cleary had a death threat just before he gave evidence.
So this was extraordinarily nasty.
many people um refused to believe a lot of it was true.
So that was something that galvanized those who just kept coming.
(22:22):
They still had to turn up to work the next morning, whatever had come across um their deskor their phone or email, whatever.
And they had to keep on fighting for uh a regime where by children are uh much safer andwhereby you can actually defrock priests who are
(22:42):
guilty of child sexual abuse and instead of breaking up this dreadful network thatoperated for so long.
As I'm sure you're aware, a landmark decision late last year has caused some shockwaves inthe institutional abuse space with the High Court finding that the Catholic Church could
not be held vicariously liable for historical child sexual abuse perpetrated by a priestas, despite being under their direction, he was not technically an employee.
(23:07):
Do you think that the news of adverse legal decisions for abuse survivors like this onehas stopped other survivors from coming forward and seeking justice?
I'm sure that's true, sadly, dreadfully, devastatingly.
Yes, that's true.
And this also harms those who already have a case in train.
How the High Court could have come to that decision.
(23:29):
I know that in Canada, ah it was able to make a judgment that there was something akin toemployment and clearly, how can you, the actual case which prompted the High Court
decision had gone through.
the Victorian appeals and Supreme Court and then had gone to the high court.
But it was the Catholic Church fighting to not be responsible for an assistant priestabusing a five-year-old child.
(23:58):
Yeah, really dreadful and devastating.
And when it was said that, well, legislation can change this, that's true.
And all of us have to get behind changes to legislation.
That has to be a nationwide campaign.
um
And there are already people like Judy Gordon and others who are fighting for that.
(24:18):
uh this is something that's actually quite difficult to do.
So yes, you're right, Nathan.
And I fear that it will have an effect on people.
know that with adult sexual assault cases, an assault victim has a very hard time incourt, it affects them badly.
(24:40):
On a little bit of a more hopeful note, of course, we have that High Court decision whichestablished that vicarious liability has become much more difficult for victim survivors
to establish.
It is still open to abuse survivors to seek compensation for direct negligence by thechurch, resulting in the abuse.
Without going into the detailed legal principles, this is to say that there is hope forsurvivors who were abused historically in a church setting.
(25:06):
to to fight for justice.
Do you think enough is being done to convey these messages to survivors and to encouragethem across the board to go out and investigate and pursue their rights despite uh some of
the shortcomings in the news stories?
Well, I think that the culture has been, I'm just going to give you a very short historyof what I think the culture has been.
(25:30):
The first through the 70s, 80s, 90s and into the 2000s has been a wholesale denial of thenature of child sexual abuse.
And there's a reluctance for many people to even admit that it exists.
So that was the dominant cultural mood, if you like.
(25:51):
Then that changed and particularly changed around the Royal Commission and before that thecampaign for the Royal Commission and then through the Royal Commission.
So this was a cultural happening of enormous importance to the Royal Commission with thisopening of a space, a cultural space, whereby people who were victim survivors were able
(26:11):
to come forward, be treated very respectfully, to be listened to, to weep openly in court.
ah There was a very moving moment in the case 42 where Paul Gray just wept.
This grief over what had happened was received by those who were listening, who werepresent in the courtroom with very great respect.
(26:37):
That's an enormous achievement that change.
But what I fear now is that we're closing over again and people are returning to.
oh
The High Court decision would be one of those, it would be an example in the, there's amood of foot which says, we've dealt with child sexual abuse.
When actually many people are still coming forward.
(26:59):
There's a mood of foot which says, we've heard about that.
We don't want to hear about it again.
Whereas I think we've got to go beside the survivors, beside them all the way to wheneverthey want to stop talking about it.
um that we go along with just the first telling of it or alternatively expect them to havea trajectory of triumph and recovery.
(27:27):
Because for some people, there's going to be backwards and forwards in their life, in andout of um a trauma and recovery.
So I think we need to continually reopen that space um and recreate the conditions.
of an ethical kind of listening um and the kind of empathetic reception um of people'sstories of child sexual abuse.
(27:56):
And I think that overall culture will help those who want to come forward and because theyknow that they're going to get the kind of respect that they deserve when they tell their
stories in court.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's all the time we have for today.
Thank you so much, Anne, for giving us your time today and also for your extraordinarywork in this space.
(28:17):
Thank you, Nathan.
It's a pleasure.
I hope you got a lot out of this episode of Law Matters.
Thank you to both Nathan Buyers and Ann Manne for their time and for their expertise.
If this episode has raised issues for you, support is available by calling Lifeline on 1311 14.
(28:41):
And you can find more about the clergy abuse network at clergyabusednetwork.org.au.
I'm Catherine Henry of Catherine Henry Lawyers, where we advocate for better.
If you need help with redress or an institutional abuse law matter, please contact my teamat Katherine Henry Lawyers.
This podcast was produced by Pod and Pen Productions.
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