Book of Mormon Discoveries near Nauvoo Illinois w/ John & Myron Brandley (Faith to Stay Part 4 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights - LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Brandley (00:00):
Hey everyone, I'm Scott Brandley and every
member of the church has a storyto share, one that can instill
faith, invite growth and inspireothers.
On today's episode, we're goingto talk about a special trip
that some family and friends andI took to Illinois in 2019,
where we made some incrediblediscoveries that tie back to

(00:22):
Christ and the Book of Mormon.
Welcome to Latter-day Lights.
Hey everyone, welcome toLatter-day Lights.
We're so glad you're here withus today and we have a special

(00:42):
treat for you today.
This is actually part four of afive-part mini series about the
launch of my new book, faith toStay, and as part of that
launch, I talk about someincredible discoveries that we
made back in 2019 on a trip toIllinois, and I'm here with two

(01:04):
of my uncles, who are also mybest friends John Branley and
Myron Branley.
Hello, Hi and they were on thetrip with me, so there was
actually quite a few of us.
My dad was with us, didn't Jake, your son come with us?
Jacob yep, and Wayne May.

(01:26):
You guys may have heard of him.
He's well-known in the Book ofMormon archaeology world.
He runs a magazine calledAmerican Archaeology, american
Archaeology.
He runs a magazine.
Yeah, american Archaeology.
He runs a magazine that talksabout different archaeological

(01:48):
finds in North America, and hecame with us and my dad was with
us, and Mark, who was aprofessor from Southern Illinois
University.
So the reason why we went toIllinois is because my dad found
out that there was a man whohad been collecting artifacts

(02:10):
his entire life and he passedaway and he lived just northwest
of Nauvoo, illinois, and hewanted to go to this auction and
he was really excited about it,and so he recruited us to go
with him on this trip.
And we didn't really know whatwe were going to find when we

(02:31):
got there.
But it wasn't.
It was a trip of a lifetime.

Myron Brandley (02:35):
So yeah, yeah.
The trip, the trip we went onwas you can see that book in the
picture he will cook is wherehe found all of these axe heads
and the guy that was there foundthem and thousands of artifacts
and Indian arrowheads andjewelry and so they basically

(03:00):
were auctioning off his wholewife's work.
So they basically wereauctioning off his whole wife's
work.
And Dave, our brother, davethat's Scott's dad was very
interested in American Indiansand how they connected to the
story of the Book of Mormon andhe had some personal experiences

(03:21):
that really drew him to NorthAmerica, um, experiences that
really drew him to north americaand um.
So it was not just a, you know,an indiana jones trip, but it
was a spiritual trip too,because we wanted to, you know
go to these places and you knowthat you go to navoo or you go
to palmyra and you're like whathappened here?

(03:41):
where are the arrowheads,where's the evidence?
And then we go to an auctionand they have tens of thousands
of artifacts that this guy justcollected walking along the
river bank between uh navoo anduh little towns along there.

John Brandley (03:57):
And so now on, his farm, his paws would pull up
new stuff every year yeah,there there were tables and
tables and this is just one guyand they have these auctions all
the time.

And so I had a friend that his brother was a
state president out by Palmyra,and same thing, they would go in
as soon as the farmer plowedand there was rain, they'd send
the kids out there and they'dfind tons of artifacts.
And so, in fact, when we wentto these little towns, we would

(04:29):
go in, oh yeah, to the, to thehomes where they have their own
little museums.
We would try to buy their stuff, and so, which they sold to us
most of the time they're like,yeah, they would collect it and
sell it.
So right there in navoo therewas that house that we went to
remember that, yeah well, hesaid his whole attic was full of
artifacts.
Yeah, his son's like.
As soon as my dad dies, you canhave all this stuff.
So we're like we'll come back,but he had a pot Remember the

(04:52):
pot he had that had a circlewith an X in it, yeah, and we
saw that symbol several places.
We saw a lot of other symbolsthat we'll talk about, but just
very interesting.
And Dave passed away threeyears ago yesterday, and so this
is kind of not a coincidencethat we're doing this today.

(05:14):
I'm sure Dave's going to helpMyron through this.
Myron's really shy, that'sright.
Myron was probably the closestto Dave, and Scott and I are
really close, and so it was afun trip because we are best
friends.
We're not just, you know,family, we are friends too, and

(05:35):
so we want to do things together.
So any excuse for us to go dosomething, and Dave came up with
this hey, let's go to thisauction.

My wife's like what All across the country To
go buy some arrowheads, that Icould something and Dave came up
with this.

Hey, let's go to this auction.
My wife's like what?
And yeah, all across thecountry to go buy some
arrowheads that I could buyonline.

But we're gonna, we're gonna fly there no it was
it was amazing to go in thatbuilding.
It was a huge steel building, Idon't know how big, 100 feet at
least.
Yeah it was pretty big andthere were tables, rows and rows
and rows of tables.
It was amazing to see all theseartifacts.

(06:09):
And it's from axe heads toarrowheads and they cover a
couple of different eras.
They talk about the HopewellIndians and you can see some of
these arrowheads like this isfrom the Hopewell era Right,

(06:33):
which was.
If you ask the archaeologists,they come from about 500 BC to
about 400 AD.
That range.
Well, if you think about thatin terms of the Book of Mormon,
it aligns with something right.

There's a pretty good alignment there.

Aligned with the Nephite and Lamanites really
well there, and then other ofthese, such as this type of
arrowhead is from the Adena era,which lines up really closely
with the Jaredites.

Yeah, so to be able to see that was really
awesome.
The Adena ones taper at thebottom and then the Hopewell
ones have a hook.

Yeah, so you can tell really quickly these ones
are Hopewell.

I don't know if you guys can see this.
This is my dad's collection,but these arrowheads have this
hook on the bottom.
So these are Hopewellarrowheads and these ones are
tapered at the bottom, and theseare Adina, which we believe is
Jaredite, because they'rethey're much, much older than
the Hopewell.

So you got some good knife points in there and
some other things too.

Yeah, so, uh, my dad also got, so one of the
things that he had at thisauction was this, uh, copper
bracelet, which is pretty cool,so we have that there and um, so
this is, this is my dad'scollection from that auction.
This is myron's collection,which he got the best.
He got the best deal at thewhole auction.
He got all of those for like$40.

We went there and there was a lot of big
collectors.
There was this one guy who wasbuying everything.
He was thousands and thousandsof dollars and Myron leaned over
to me and he's like I got like$45.
So hopefully I'll get a couplebroken arrows, something.
Maybe that guy goes to thebathroom and I get something.

(08:26):
He's like I have a feeling it'sgoing to work out and I'm like
it's totally going to work outfor you.
That guy went to get atenderloin sandwich.
They had these big porktenderloin sandwiches and he was
out.
This one that is in the middleof the table is Myron's.
It came up and we all lookedaround and Myron was like $35,

(08:47):
$40.
No one was bidding on it.
We're like you are kidding me.
Then he bought that.

That was at the beginning of the auction.
He's like I'm done.

Scott and I spent like $1,000.
We have like four that are noteven you notice.
We didn't bring any.
I didn't even bring mine,because ours are garbage.

Well, and we left after halfway through the
auction or something, but Davestayed and he spent.

I have no idea how much, Dave spent another
like $1,500 and then he said toScott and I, and I quote hey, I
got a bunch of stuff for us.
We'll just split it three ways,right?
And Scott and I are like oh, wejust got hosed.
So now we spend another $500each on stuff that we didn't

(09:40):
bring to show you because Dave'sstuff is really good Well my
stuff isn't in a nice case.

I have it on a shelf.
And Dave was very generous.
I came home and I did not havean axe head.
So the axe head over there, oh,you got to see that one.

Yeah, that's a pretty cool one, that's a nice
one.
Look at the edge on that.

And he donated that to me because I didn't get
an axe head.

Yes, everything works out for Martin.
He got all the best stuff.

Here's another cool one.

That is one of my cool ones.

This is Johnny's .
So the cool thing about theseaccents, which comes back to
this book so when I was at theauction I saw this book and I
knew that Keokuk was across theriver from Nauvoo, but it was
wrapped in the original likecellophane or whatever.
So I couldn't open the book.
But I could see, I knew whereKeokuk was and I'm like this is

(10:31):
fascinating.
Who nobody knows that there wasthese ancient stone axes across
the river from Nauvoo?
It's just a few miles fromNauvoo and so I I bought that
book at the auction, I bid on itand I won it, and then I I got
some of these axe heads in theauction as well.
But the cool thing about thatbook is this is just some random

(10:51):
farmer that wrote this book andhe found some access here on
this book.
He had found some access on hisproperty and he started talking
to some of the other farmersaround and they had found axes
too.
So he started to document allof these ancient stone axe heads
that had been found around theNauvoo Keokuk area.

(11:14):
And the coolest so that bookhas hundreds.
I mean, look how thick thisthis is like.
This is a serious book.
This has hundreds of ax headsin it, like I'll just flip
through it so you can seeHundreds of ax heads that have
been found around Nauvoo.

(11:35):
But the coolest part is at thebeginning.
He has a map.
He has a map of all of theplaces.
No, I won't build this photo.
It's right here.
All these little dots are whereaxe heads have been found all
around the Nauvoo area.
Nobody knows that this existsbecause this guy probably sold
20 of these books he spent yearsputting it together.

(11:58):
He's like I made this amazingbook about axe heads and
everybody's like uh-huh.

At the auction you could actually buy some of
these axe heads, but they wereselling for thousands of dollars
.

Yeah, that one guy was like bidding up
everything Because they're nowdocumented.
But there was one axe head.

it was this big, it was huge.

Yeah.

And there were a couple of them that big and we
we didn't.
We were too cheap so we didn'tbuy any.
But, um, it's amazing that thevariety of the axe heads and the
arrowheads and the knives andthere's some jewelry, yeah, so
there's some beads.

Show, show that, myron, this is just one of the
cameras yeah, that's a beadednecklace made out of some type
of stone or something.
Yeah, they had.

In a lot of these mounds in North America
they find a lot of jewelry, alot of pearls.
They made their own pearls.

This is made out of shells, yeah this is shells.
This also talks to the pointthat they traded and traveled.
Yeah.
They didn't just stay in onespot necessarily talks to the
point that they traded andtraveled, yeah.

Yeah, stay in one.
At Mordecai Hopewell's place,where all the hope the name
comes from, from Dr MordecaiHopewell, they they found uh
over 12,000 artifacts.
They found uh copper armor withwith thousands of pearls sewn
onto it.
They found a guy that was sevenfeet tall in that main mound

(13:26):
and he was clad in copper armorfrom head to toe, and this
smithsonian did the, did thatdig.
so anything that they found from?
They found a lot of those, um,effigy pipes that uh, are very,
you know, noteworthy for the thehopewell it's.
It's of those things.
If you find an effigy pipe thenyou know it's probably Hopewell

(13:48):
.
And the same thing with pearls.
They found sharp teeth, theyfound bear claws, they found
obsidian arrowheads.
I've got one in here thatbasically comes from Yellowstone
.
So there was a vast tradenetwork.
They were trading in the Gulfand on the Atlantic and all the
way to the Rocky Mountains, andso these people had a lot of

(14:12):
influence.
And you know there's hundredsof thousands of settlements and,
and even more, you know,millions of mounds that are in
North America but organized, andso we were interested in.
We'd been on a couple trips.
Dave wanted to go to thisauction.

(14:34):
We said, okay, let's go.
And he's like I'm going to getmy buddy Wayne to come with us
and he's going to show us somestuff in Illinois, and we'd
never been there before.
So we went to southern Illinoisand Wayne brought his friend
Mark, who was amazing, and hisprofessor there at Southern
Illinois University, and so hehad walked these hills and these

(14:55):
forts and he is an evangelicalChristian.
He's not LDS, but loves Wayne.

Wayne relates to all these people Well well, it
was cool that Wayne knew him,because because this guy had
grown up down in southernIllinois and he had explored a
lot of ancient like petroglyphsites and things that are down
there, and so he took us to someof these locations.
And what a lot of people don'tknow is in southern illinois

(15:26):
there's a series of hilltopforts that run along the bottom
of southern illinois all alongthe bottom, and then you've got
the mississippi river coming onthe one side and you got the
missouri river coming along theother side and they meet at the
bottom of illinois.
So it creates this separateprotected area in the bottom of

(15:49):
the state.
That's very difficult to access.
And along these hilltop fortsit's really cool because they're
built geographically.
I don't know why, but there'scliffs on the north, east and
west sides of these hilltopareas and then on the back side

(16:11):
it slopes down.
But we went to some of thesehilltop forts and we got in.
A lot of them are privateproperty, but some of them are
parks now.
But we were able to get inbecause of Mark yeah, Mark.
Mark knew some of these peoplethat owned some of these places

(16:31):
and so we went to this privateproperty and climbed on top of
these forts, but the cool partis is on the backside.
That wasn't protected by cliffs, there was what.

There were rock walls, stone walls and things,
and there's still remnants ofthose walls now, and so the
front part is protected.
Around the rest of it, I mean,there's cliffs and they're a
long way down and uh, so theyhad only had to protect
themselves in a certain area anda lot of those had protected

(17:12):
pathways coming into them sothat you could only come in
single file.
So if you were attacking them,they had a big advantage, so
they could kill you one at atime as you came in.

Basically it was like a place of entrance in the
book of morning right, whereyou had a kill zone.
You could come through andstand above them and you took
them through this little maze.
They also had a back door yeah,that was kind of fun.
Um, yeah, I couldn't fit throughthe back door, but but the
skinny layman I'd say, and scottand my kid Jake, we made it,

(17:44):
you made it.
Oh, I got stuck halfway.
Oh, and Don Jensen came with us.
He was a good friend of mine,he was 80 at the time and he's
like shaking his head.
He's like we're going to haveto lifelight you out of here.
You cannot make it.
You just died.
The Lamanites killed you.

So anyway, but they did have that back door,
but you could.
You could stand in front ofwhere that back door was and you
could not tell it was there,because it's hidden in the rocks
and you did have to come downand like part of it there was
like a 90 degree turn and if youweren't skinny enough you
wouldn't make the turn.
It was tough and so it was notsomeplace they could be attacked
.
Even if they discovered it,they really couldn't attack.

You couldn't attack up because it was yeah,
there was a way to get out.

It was narrow and lots of places for people to
drop rocks on you or whatever.

Yeah, it also had one of the features of these
forts with.
You know, the walls are thereand a lot of the settlers would
come and they'd take those rocksand then they would use them to
build their houses or a cellaror whatever, and so they'd been
taking them out and it wouldit'd be arduous to take them up.
Yes, they were huge rocks.
They're huge and they the um,the people that I remember.

(18:59):
There was this old lady thathad a house.
Remember we went and knocked onher door and Mark was talking
to her and she's talking aboutall the stuff they find, you
know, in her yard and aroundthere, these Indian artifacts.
But, um, they also have springsat these places of refuge or
these hilltop forts and, uh, sothey have a water source there.

(19:21):
They protected them.
They're protected by the wateron the one side, they're
protected by the cliffs on theother and they're spread apart
about.
It was about a day's walk fromeach one.

I don't know if it was a day's, but they all had
a line of sight.
They had a line of sight sothey could use mirrors or mica
or whatever, or smoke Flasks orsmoke, and so there was a line
of sight to the next.

They weren't close together, though they were
spread out.

They were spread out, but there was a line of
sight between them all.

Yeah, yeah, they were all in a line and they're.
You know, like Scott said,they're part of the park system
now or they're on privateproperty.
And one of the other coolthings that was there was the
first book or magazine thatWayne ever put out had a picture
of a hand with a hole in it.

Ancient American magazine.
Ancient American magazine.

There you go, wayne, there's the book and it
had this hand with a hole in itwith a bunch of other birds and
other animals on this wall andit was interesting.
Wayne wayne's like that's thefirst cover of my magazine,
right, and we're there andthere's a lot of graffiti.
It's down low and they havefire pits and and there's people

(20:34):
, um, hanging out down there,where these, where it's easy to
get to, at the bottom of thisone park and, um, we took
pictures of that, and with thehole in it, one park and we took
pictures of that, and with thehole in it, we said to Wayne,
have you ever seen anything elselike this?
And he's like, no, this is, butit's cool.
But we're just there to go tothis auction and to see these

(20:55):
forts and we saw the hand andsome of these petroglyphs and we
had no idea that we would eversee anything else like that.

right, right, but that's that's the cool part
about this and I remember goingto that first petroglyph site
and we were just kind of like oh, this is kind of cool.
So we're just kind of takingsome pictures and didn't think
much of it, and then later thatafternoon, mark takes us to the
second site, which is called theWhetstone Shelter Site.

(21:31):
I did research for my book.
That's how I know the name ofwhere we went, but it is in the
middle of nowhere.
We had to go up a power trail,up these different hills, all in
the power lines.
Yeah, power line trail.
And then, mark, he randomlysees this log on the side of the

(21:55):
trail.
He's like, oh, this is the spot.

Let's go off.

And I remember turning off there and it was
like a cliff.

It was a cliff, yeah we were going down a
freaking cliff.
You go down the cliff and atthe bottom of the trees are
growing out so you can hold onto them as you go down.
I thought I thought don wasgonna die don, at 80 did it and,
yeah, you were sliding,basically holding on to trees,
but at the end of this cliff itdropped 600 feet down to the
Mississippi and so you're justlike please stop right.

Well, and Mark, when he started down there he
said it's easier this way.
He just got on his Slid downthere, sat down and just slid.
But the rest was road walk down.
But we held on to the trees,yeah, came around the bend and
stuff and there's brush andeverything and all of a sudden
there's an opening there.
Oh yeah, with the panels therethere's a place where you can

(22:53):
stand and you call it a cave, Icall it an opening.

Yeah, it was definitely covered or
semi-covered.
There were several panels alongthere.
And you could look out and seethe river.

Oh, it was gorgeous.

It was gorgeous and he'd been coming there for
20 years.
There's no signs or anything.
People have not graffitied thesite like the lower site,
because they don't know where itis.
It was different.
Everything was carved and everywall was covered and nothing
had been messed with.
That had just been protectedbecause nobody knows about it

(23:29):
except for Mark and his buddiesat the university, and they're
the type of people that willpreserve it.
And so we're just looking atall these things and we see
different symbols, right, and itwas kind of mind-blowing and he
wanted to show us the otherthing that with a lot of these
sites they align up with asolstice, either a winter or

(23:50):
summer solstice or an equinox,something that is a celestial
event that's happening, andthey'll align the site so that
you can see those things right,they aligned everything with the
lunar calendar too, which isreally interesting because
that's what the Jews do, and soeverything is lunar, and this

(24:11):
site was no different.
It aligned with the solstice.

Right, yeah, the solstice.
So I remember Mark telling usabout the throne.
He's like you've got to checkout this throne.
So we get down there and sureenough, there was this area
inside this cave section.
It was kind of scooped out andit looked like a chair.
It had been carved in this rock.
But then behind this thronethere were three petroglyph

(24:40):
panels with all different kindsof symbols.

Yeah, and a row and then a line, all different
kinds of symbols, and then aline, and then yeah, yeah, there
were there was a line todelineate the three panels and
you could tell that that thoselines had been carved out.

Yeah, yes, it was, it was incredible, and yeah
, and on the seat itself.

It looked like there were carvings on the seat.
And I said to him I'm like thisdoesn't make, so you sit on
this.
And he's like, yeah, here'swhat happens.
You sit on the throne and thenif you look over your right
shoulder, there was a crack inthe in the mountain.
And he's like it's the craziestthing we've been here with the

(25:17):
solstice.
And when it comes through, itcrosses across your body and it
dies in that hole, it goes intothis crevice.
He's like, so it's really cool.
So, yeah, it's.
So we sit there and we let thewhite light go across our chest
and it just kind of comes acrossslow and goes into this hole
and and I'm like, huh, well, howcome there's all these panels

(25:39):
behind here?
And he's like, oh, we don'treally know, right?
He's like, oh, we don't know.
And I'm like, well, what if thelight came across?
So it could like hit the paneland each symbol, because it had
multiple symbols and you'rereading the symbols as it goes
through there, right?
He's like, oh, who are you guys?
We're like we're just nobody.

(26:01):
We're just nobody, we justthinkers, right?
We're just critically thinkingabout all of these things.
And and there was the circlewith the cross on it and he's
like, oh, that represents time,right time forward, time back,
and some of them were juststraight.
And he's like we don't reallyknow what it means.
And so we're looking down thispanel and, as it goes past, the

(26:21):
guy's body that's sitting on thethrone, into the crack there's
hands with holes on it on bothsides.
So tell me about that.

Yeah, so we're looking at the wall, there were,
in this particular location,there was a lot of hands yeah,
yes, and with holes in them, andthere were circle crosses yes,
and with holes in them, andthere were circle crosses.
And, as we're looking at theone panel, all the hands were
either single hands or they weredouble hands.
But in this particular case,there was a set that had the

(26:52):
thumbs on opposite sides, andnot only that, but it was like
engraved into the rock, so youcould actually feel like where
the bottom of the, the palm was,because it was actually etched
into rock.
Same with that, same with thefingers.
And so I'm looking at it andjohn, like called john.

(27:14):
I'm like john, come over herefor a minute, make that sign of
those that that hand, that thosehands are making.
And he put his hands up andthey went like this and we were
just like, oh my gosh it was inthe circle.
It was cut out was in the palmof the hand yeah, so we're, we

(27:34):
just kind of just stood there,we're like and it was where the
light came through.

One was on each side of that, like this, and
then the light from the solsticewould come right between them.
Yeah, we were so.
We were like this is crazy.

We like this really looks like.
Christ like what we wouldpicture.

Christ holding his hands out, doing yeah,
showing the purses, like this,where you know you see the back
of the hand and they get on likethis you didn't see the poem
and then, right underneath, thatwas a circle cross.

And then so we started to think, like, we
started making connections.
We're like hands with holes.
Christ, christ putting hishands out, and they were like,
okay, what could the circlecross represent?
We're thinking, well, cross,death Circle is the sun life.
What a perfect symbol forChrist right and for Christ's

(28:26):
resurrection.
And we were freaking out.
And then Mark, again he's likewho are you guys?
Again.
He's like where did you guyscome from?

He'd been coming there for 20 years.
And then we went, there wereall these carvings, there was a
place where, like you, would putliquid and it would come down,
and there were these othersymbols that were that have to
be significant, but we don'tknow what they are.
Wayne kind of knew what some ofthem were.
Um, but we're back to this, tothis throne, this, um, king of

(28:57):
the seat of the king, right whenyou sit there and watch the
light go across, seat of theking, right when you sit there
and watch the light go across.
And I'm standing there and I gothat had these jagged cuts in
it in the seat and I'm like Markwhy does it have those?
It has stuff in the seat.
And he's like, ah, he's like wejust sit on it and I'm like you

(29:19):
don't know, you're like the guyRight and Mark's awesome.
And so he's like, uh, I don'tknow and I'm like I just had the
impression that to put my handin it or, you know, on it, and I
said, can I touch this?
Cause we didn't touch anything,we were respectful.
And he's like, well, we sit onit.
So he's like I think.
So he's like it's fine, youcan't hurt it.
And so so I put my hand downand my hand fit.

(29:40):
It was bigger than my hand, itwas longer than my hand, but I
put my hand in and it fitperfect.
And you could feel that thispart here had been all of it fit
perfect.
It didn't look like a handprintuntil you put your hand in it
and I was like whoa, they'relooking at us and I'm like my

(30:00):
hand fits perfect in this, buttheir hand that they had carved
was actually a little longer andit's sitting there and I'm
looking at this thing and I havethe best eyesight and my son,
jacob, goes.
Dad, put your hand right there.
He's like I can see that, youknow because I described to him.
I could feel this right.

He's like that's carved out right there, dad and
I'm like what are you talkingabout?

so and he's like that's carved out right there,
dad, and I'm like what are youtalking about?
So then I he's like let's putyour hand there.
I put my hand there and theknob right here for my thumb was
cut out.
Every finger and all of thisjust a lot lighter, completely
different.
But I put looked up like thisand I could see the panel.

(30:45):
But I'm leaning over like thisand I had the impression to
kneel and I'm like, okay, Ithink I know what this is.
So I knelt down and Mark goeswhoa, who are you guys?
And we're like I don't know, butwe.

That's why I said it was high for a seat, but it
was just right for when you.

So when I kneeled, my hands were here and
it fit perfect and I looked upand you can see all three panels
.
Then I'm facing that light now,as it's red.
My hands are here, the lightcomes here and it goes across
through the crack with the hands, with holes on them and, um,
we're like this is not, uh, aseat, this is an altar and it

(31:35):
had been carved and had beencarved the whole thing.
And Don Don, who is really aspiritual giant, just good
person, he's like whoa, and he'sbeen, he's been around and he's
he's 85 in a couple days and,um, still doing well, but, um,
he's like where are?

(31:55):
What is this place?
Right?
And so it was.
It was different.
We had never seen an altar thatyou put your hands on, so we
each took turns, right, yeah.

And it was definitely.
They were inverted handprintsbecause there was actually a
divot for your thumb.
It fit perfectly.
There was carved for your palmand then each finger was
actually cut out of the rock itwas there was.
It was crazy.

You wouldn't even know.
I mean, when you're looking atthis part, it looked like just
jagged but you could see that itwas there.

But the other one you couldn't even see.
It harder to see with takingpictures you could see the
little.

Yeah, you can see it super good in the picture
, but uh the camera is your eyesand the shadows and stuff.

You really couldn't see that left hand.

And then there was this thing that was cut out
like there was a place to putsome kind of oil or blood or
something, and it came down atrough and it would have went
right across that panel and wedidn't have anything to test
that out, but we could see it.
So this whole thing.
And then, as you went aroundthe corner where we came in,

(33:01):
there was another one, there wasanother panel and another place
that had been carved out allthe way down to where your knees
go in, and don actually foundthat one and was like you guys
come over here.
So it was a completelydifferent.
It was kind of like an l shape,where we come in this way and
then come back and then out likethis yeah and um, it was.

It was one of the most amazing things.

Like we felt like we were indiana jones, but
in a spiritual way, because wewere like when you, when you
kneel down and your hands arehere and you can see these
symbols um, I don't think thatit was a coincidence, no, no one
had ever seen that.
And I called mark a year or twolater and said, hey, we want to

(33:46):
go back there.
And like you remember me?
And he's like oh yeah, we'regoing back.
He's like he's like, we'll getall this stuff and go back and
um, because he had never hadthose types of experiences
either and he's very, uh, a verygood christian.
So so, yeah, we love mark andhe for him taking us there and
and it was a sacred experienceto um just contemplate these

(34:11):
people, um knowing christ and Imean, obviously they.

they knew the prayer was sacred, they knew
that there was that site,obviously sacred.
It was hard to get to.
It was up on a cliff.
Yeah, they spent countlesshours carving all of that into
the rock.

I mean there's hundreds, just the actual throne
itself and not the throne butthe altar and the other altar
and the panels.
I had never seen anything likethat and I've looked at, you
know, all of the petroglyphs andthe.
We've gone to a lot ofdifferent places.
Yeah, we've been to a lot ofthese things, where there's
miles of them, but nothing likethis.
And so now we found two placeswith the hand in the hole, with

(34:56):
the circle cross, and we're likewe're never going to find it.
Have you ever found anythinglike this mark?
And he's like nope, but I'll gowherever you guys want to go.
And we're like where we'regoing to go and he's like I'm
going to take you to this place.
That is another fort, but it'ssurrounded by water.
You go down this railroadrailroad went through there so

(35:17):
you kind of walk the railroadand it's this beautiful area,
right.
It is as lily pads out in thewater.
And you come up this back andyou can see the wall, so the
unprotected area.
You can see the rock wall thatthey built and it was, I think,
a state park too, right it?

was part of one.
But yeah, he's like we had towalk quite a ways.

He's like this is where I go to have a picnic
with my kids right where and Isaid are we going to find?
Said are we going to find any?
You know?

petroglyphs.

Now, we were kind of on the lookout too,
right Well and Scott and Jakewere like eagle eyes right, they
could see stuff, and so we werelike looking around Everywhere
we went.
Now we're like we're waiting tosee something and he's like
there's nothing here.
I've been coming here for 20years.
We have picnics.
It's beautiful.
I'm like can we go off thiscliff?
Maybe there's some hidden roomdown there.

(36:10):
He's like no.

He's like no, and so we're just walking around
, right, yeah.
And so I went to the back sideof this hilltop fort area and I
looked looking down at down thecliff, kind of checking it out,
and I turn around and on therock behind me no joke was
another set of handprints with ahole in the palm.

(36:35):
And then Jake comes up behindme and he's like there's a
circle cross right there and wewere all like we were freaking
out at that point.
We were in another spot.
Yeah, like guys.

Mark says well, we just sit on that rock all the
time to have our picnic.
He says I never saw those.

So, yeah, there were two handprints with holes
in the palms and a circle across, but the cool part is it was in
a hilltop fort, so thatconnected the hilltop forts to
these people, to these peoplethat did the altar, the prayer
altar.
So now we know that thesepeople prayed, the people that

(37:17):
built these hilltop forts prayed, because they were the same
people and it was an amazingconnection, but you had to have
eagle eyes.

I mean, nobody had seen it.
Mark's like I've never seenthat.
I don't know how you saw that.
Who are you guys?
And we're like I don't know.
But we have right.
But that's the third one.
Right, that everyone had seenthe one down by the fire pit,
right, but nobody had seen thoseother ones.
And well, mark had.
But seen those other ones and umwell marquette but he had never

(37:47):
seen that one, the rock that itwas sitting on, you know.
We knelt down by it to see oh,maybe this is another, but it
wasn't carved, you know, and andit was different, but but it
was just like an affirmation,that, um, a confirmation that
this, these were the same people.
Yeah, and we weren't.
We didn't go on this triplooking for that.
No, none of this.

(38:08):
It wasn't, you know, even onour radar.
We were just going to look atthe forts.
We wanted to look at the fortsand see how they built them and
why are they dragging these hugerocks up these cliffs?
You know it's crazy becausepeople are like, well, they were
just clearing their fields.
There are no fields there.

(38:28):
You don't clear your fields andtake it up the hill.

They build massive stone walls.

They knew they were forts and they call them
that, and it's like Fort Ancientright.
It had these hugefortifications and these cliffs
around it and now they're likewell, this was a ceremonial site
, what it?
And?
And now?

they're like well, this was a ceremonial site
.
What like?
If it's a ceremonial site, youdon't need a fortifier.

Yeah, I need a wall, why you building it on the
edge of a cliff and then andthen enclosing the rest of it
and and so you know there's ayou're always gonna fight that
narrative.
But there are definitely fortsin North America and we've been
to a lot of them.
But it's amazing, they're stillyeah, they're six feet tall, oh

(39:15):
yeah and they, they go andyou're like how does this exist?

how does this exist?
Nobody, nobody tells you aboutthis stuff, but it's incredible.
Yeah, it's like a feat ofengineering to build, to have
these walls, and we were juststanding by them, walking by
them.
They there's a lot of them arestill there.
So I have a picture of that.
I have a picture of all of thisin my book, by the way, so

(39:43):
that's why we won't.
I wanted to talk to you guysabout it, because I do talk
about these sites that we findand some of these discoveries we
made, but I don't talk aboutthe auction.
I don't talk about the axes.
These are really cool thingsthat people don't know exist
around Nauvoo Right, and in theDoctrine and Covenants, joseph

(40:06):
Smith said that Zarahemla was across from Nauvoo.
He says to name that placeZarahemla.
Well, if that's the case, thismakes sense, right?
Having hundreds of axe headsbeing found, having countless
artifacts who in the church evenhas ever heard that artifacts

(40:29):
exist at navoo?
Like that's just not a thing,that, no, that anybody even
knows, but we've seen it yeah,we've seen tables and tables and
tables of artifacts, and it'sincredible.
I mean you can just see.
It's incredible.
I mean you can just see, likejust to build one of those, like
that's a ton of work to make anaccent out of rock.

(40:52):
And there's hundreds of themthere.
Yeah, it's crazy.

You know the ones that the auction had boxes
full of these that are broken.
That they were they couldn'tget rid of.
You know cause they weredamaged.
We were okay with the brokenones, I think you know some of
them.

I should have brought some.
I have some that are.
I have some that are worn down.

They they were used so much that the blade was
worn down.
And the big ones.
It's interesting too, becausethey have ones like this.
I'm telling you they're hugeand the adena stuff is big, so
their arrows are different,their stuff is big.
These are big people, just towield that, and um, so you have
both of these cultures that arecrossing all the time, and it's

(41:35):
interesting too, because thejaredite culture died out, and
then here come the bulakites andthen, and the lamanites and the
nephites.
Right, and, by the way, thesethings that they built are
massive and they are, uh, theycircle the square, they have the
same math that the people inegypt have, they use the same
degrees and the things that theybuilt, and they have roads that

(41:58):
go for miles in a straight lineand, uh, earth levels and and
they're, they're using thewaterways to get through there.
And where Mordecai Hopewell'splace is, which it's a very
sacred place too, that we wenton another trip, and so Myron

(42:19):
and I went, and Myron and mywife and I are walking this
ditch and you can see the bermand it's built up, and then
there were palisades on top ofit and towers that would protect
it, and it was, you know, andthen, as you came down there was
a wall but the whole thing waswalled and it had this
three-tiered mound that wasinside of another wall.

(42:40):
So it was very sacred.
That's where they found most ofthe artifacts, tens of
thousands of artifacts thatsmithsonian found.
But even in the, if you go tothat park, hopewell, that
hopewell park it's a state parknow you can see the opening of
the trees trees don't grow on itbecause it's so compacted.
But you come down that entranceand at the bottom there's all

(43:04):
the.
There's 28 mounds there.
These mounds, but they're these.
The big mound they dug into,but the little mounds they dug
into too.
And in the 1800s a guy came anddug into this one mound and
they found 8004 perfectlyflinted weapons.

(43:26):
And they're big, they're as bigas my hand, like we put my hand
next to the thing and they were, they were put down like this
and then like this, and theywere organized perfectly in rows
and they buried weapons of warin this ceremonial mount 8004 of
them.
I don't know what thatsignificance is, but that's what

(43:47):
they had in there and they wereperfectly flinted and then
buried.
And when they did these moundsMeyern's an engineer they used
different materials and thenthey usually encrusted them with
some kind of a cement whichthey're not supposed to have in
North America, but they have itall over and sealed off the
mound.
And then for what?

(44:07):
Right over and sealed off themound?
And then for what?
Right?
So this, this mordecai hopewellplace, the place that these
people are named after, thepeople that happened to just
disappear the same time.
The book mormon says they doand uh, and they move from that
place to uh, they go, uh, east,right, and they end up at the
hill tomorrow and then theydon't exist anymore.
But they buried.

(44:28):
They had a ceremonial mound withweapons that were buried and I
went there the first time andnever saw that.
We didn't even go over there.
But I was like Scott, can youbelieve this?
This is crazy.
And they were literally thesize of your hand.
It wasn't like a little arrowthat they had.
No, they were big, it was like aspear point, and you know that

(44:56):
it was business and it wasperfectly flinted and I thought
how could they overlook this?
Like the evidences, josephsmith was promised the evidences
would come out of it, out ofthe dirt right, you'll be able
to see it.
well, if you have eyes to see,there's a lot of evidence and
you know, Joseph Smith said thathe walked over the plains of
the Nephites right, roaming overthe mounds of that once beloved
people, picking up their bonesand telling their stories.

(45:19):
Well, we've kind of done that.
We've been to that place.
Mordecai's place is specialbecause it was preserved,
because he was a doctor.
He didn't plow it under, hewent and had it done right, and
that's why these people arenamed after him.
This culture, because of thethings they found there were so
magnificent.
And any time they found anothermound, if it had an effigy pipe

(45:44):
or if it had pearls, or if ithad some of these arrowheads,
they're like that's hopewell,and so there's a reason it was
preserved.
That's not a coincidence.
That wall is still there.
You can walk it today and I'lltell you this my brother had a
sacred experience.
He knew that the book mormonwas in north america because he
had a personal revelation.

(46:06):
Myron and I and Scott, we'reHoly Ghosters.
We want to, first and foremost,follow the Spirit and we want
to see the cool stuff out there.
It's not going to change ourtestimony.
These rocks aren't going tochange our testimony, but they
are fun and we have seen thingsthat have strengthened our

(46:26):
testimony in the Book of Mormon,that's right.
So it hasn't been one of thosethings where, the first time I
went on a trip back there, Isaid to my wife I don't know if
this is where the Book of Mormontook place, but God does and he
can tell me.
So if I have a sincere desireto to know, then he can reveal

(46:50):
those things to me.
Or he can say no, you should bein Guatemala, right, yeah,
which I'm cool with.
Or I want to go to Machu Picchu, that's fine too.
Did the Lamanites get down there?
Probably.
And so, as for me and my house,we know where that's happened.
I've had spiritual experienceswith both of you.

(47:11):
Your dad did, and I'm not goingto talk to him about them here,
but things where I know in mybones where this took place.
At least some of those thingstook place.
This took place, at least someof those things took place.
And Myron and I have hadmultiple trips.

(47:31):
Experiences were like how didthat happen, right?
Right, we weren't.
We had an open heart, but wewere surprised, still, yeah.
And I think we were surprisedwhen we went to that cave and
found an altar, right.
How many people can say they'veseen an altar in North America

(47:54):
Carved in stone, right Carvedout of the wall of an open cave,
an alcove, right.

That's why it was cool, right.
Yeah, it was unreal.
We had no expectations going inand then to find something like
that, um, you know, it's justit was.
It was an experience of alifetime, so, but yeah, it's
been, it's been great.
I feel like, you know, god gaveus those experiences so we can

(48:27):
share them, and that's why Iwanted to have you guys on those
experiences so we can sharethem.
And that's why I wanted to haveyou guys on the show, so we can
share some of these really coolexperiences that most members
of the church will never haveand don't know anything about.

Most people in the United States don't know
what's out there Right, and allthese mounds and these cities
and roadways and a lot of themare preserved.
Probably 90% of them got plowedunder, and so there's tens of

(49:02):
thousands of these sites thatwould have been that they can
see through LiDAR imaging andstuff that were there.
Nobody's educated about it,it's not in our history books.
You talk to somebody about itand they're like oh, you're
crazy.

There might be a little sign next to some of
these locations, if anything.

If you don't go there, you don't experience it
Right, and so we've had someawesome experiences going to
those places Bushwhackingthrough bush and brush Chiggers.

Chiggers and termites those are awesome Ticks
yeah.

And those kind of things that a lot of most
people will never experience.
But the stuff is there if youlook for it, right?

the people who live there, in these little
towns and places that you go,well, they know where all this
stuff is, they know it and, um,you know, they're just but for
them it's just kind of come toplace.

I was here, it's just life, but it's not written
anywhere.

It's not I mean it is, but not to the general
public Book of Mormon right so Ithink that a lot of people who
get caught up in is the Book ofMormon, here or there, or you
know, and tumult of words andopinions, right, happen, and if

(50:34):
you have the Holy Ghost andyou're honest, then God will
reveal it to you, and I thinkthat's the difference.
There were people that were onour trip and I'm like wow, look
at this and they're like notinterested at all, they're like
no, that probably didn't happenthere and I'm like really.

Or that's cool.
What's next?

Let's go look at some more rocks.
And I'm thinking well, there'sgot to be more to this.
The civilization was veryadvanced.
It had all of this technologyand this map.
They lined up everything withthe lunar calendar.
They knew the stars, they knewwhere they were on the map
within a few feet.
We can't do that today, we'renot educated enough to figure

(51:23):
that out without a GPS.
But they could do it.
And these weren't huntergatherers.
Everybody in the whole worldculture knew they had barley,
they had all of these umproducts that they were.
They were agrarian and, uh,they also had flocks and they
also had um domesticated animals.

(51:44):
That's a fact.
You can go into the museums andthey'll tell you this.
They also had fine twine, linen, right, right.
Remember when we went in thereand I said to the ranger I'm
like you're showing me theIndians in loincloths or what's
the other thing?
Buckskins, right, buckskins,yeah, and it's like 100 degrees,

(52:07):
we're in Ohio and I'm likenobody's wearing that.
And she just laughed and she'slike and I got her on tape right
and she's like no, she's likewhat they really wore was they
would take milkweed and theywould weave clothes that was
finer than silk.
And I'm like what did you justsay?

(52:29):
Like fine, twine, linen?
She's like, yeah, and theywould dye it and they would
paint it.
And she's like we have littlesamples.
And guess where the samples camefrom?
They stuck to metal, to copperarmor.
Oh yeah, so it fused to thearmor.
So they'd wear the clothes andput the armor over it

(52:51):
breastplates and headplates, andthen they would have these
fabrics that were preservedright, because it would be the
first thing to go.
But they were preserved becausethey fused to the metal.
So they're like, oh yeah, we'vegot that stuff.
And they didn't wear blackskins, it.
She's like, if they wore that,it was in the winter, right, so
in the winter, where they hadparakeets and they had, you know

(53:14):
, there's parakeets in all thesemounds, which is crazy, which
tells you the temperature wasdifferent too.
But there's all these evidencesand um and the metallurgy and
all of those things are rightthere in the museums.
You know, that's the otherthing that you would see, like
you brought up dave's copperband there or jewelry.
These weren't people that werehunter-gatherers.

(53:37):
they had vast networks wherethey're getting these things
from other mica from all placesthe obsidian, the shark's teeth
that, whatever they, you know,even the stuff they flinted came
from specific places, rightwhere it was the best to get.

Yeah, yeah.
Well, it was cool to see thatwhen we would go to museums and
they would show like, hey, look,look what, all these things
that came from this mound andhere's where it came from in the
united states, and they haveall these arrows pointing all
across the country, yeah, wherethey verified where these
materials came from in theUnited States.
And they have all these arrowspointing all across the country
where they verified where thesematerials came from from a mount
, and you're like, wow, that'scool.

(54:14):
I didn't know that.
But now I know it because Iwent to this random museum in
the middle of nowhere.
Yeah, it was, it was fun.

What one museum that we went to.
So when we went up to the, tothe place where the auction was,
we're all in a van and Dave isthe oldest brother, scott's dad
and he was driving, and we're inthe van and we've got Wayne,
who's the archeologist, he's theexpert, and Mark had stayed

(54:43):
down in Southern Illinois.
So we're driving all the way up.
We're like, how far is this toour hotel?
So we could.
It was just outside of in Iowa,just across from Nauvoo, and do
you remember the town?
Can't think of the town.
Anyway, it's just this tinytown where this was and where
this auction house was.
So we're driving for hours.

(55:06):
We're like, how many miles didyou say that was?
I've got this, I got it on mygps, I got this on my gps and
what would we?

we were going down the craziest road.
Kept getting more narrow, morenarrow road.

I look over at scott and I'm like I don't think
we're on the right road.
And uh, we, we were down thescout road and we'd look over
and there was a highway and carswere going like this and we're
going like this and I'm like Ithink we're supposed to be over
there.
No, I know where I'm going.
I'm following the GPS and Ilook at Wayne and I'm like, hey,

(55:43):
wayne, are we on the right road?
And he'd do this yeah, we're onthe right road.
And he'd do this.
Yeah, we're in all the carsthere.
We're supposed to be over there.
For hours, we're in this driveand finally we get there.

We got to some little town.

Yeah, we got somewhere.
And then Myron's sitting upthere with Dave, so tell him
what happened.

Well, he stopped.
I can't remember if he stoppedfor gas or just to get a drink.
We were probably out of gasbecause we've been driving for
hours.
There's bicycles passing us onthe road and stuff.
It's not exaggerating.
He grabs the phone from me andsays I don't know what's wrong
with this navigation thing andhe starts messing with it.

(56:29):
It said on bike mode.

Yeah, we were on a bike route, we were on a bike
route.
We were on a bike route forhours.
So the next day we were likeFun trip, side trips, yeah.

It's also country About every every 30 minutes.
Wait, where are we supposed toevery 30 minutes?

wait, where are we supposed to?
Is this the road?
It's over there.
So the next day we were goingto the temple, right To Nauvoo,
and we're like we don't havethree hours to go to the temple,
and we were like it's only like34 miles, you know, and you got
to cross the river.
So, we're like huh, I don'tknow, I don't know, maybe this

(57:04):
is how it is out here in thecountry.
We got there in like 20 minutes, we got ice cream, we went
around the whole town.
We were like Dave, you cannot.
And then the funny part is heblamed Myron.
You're in heaven, you know thisis true.
He blamed Myron for putting iton the bike ramp and Myron at
the time had a flip phone.
That's right, I had no ideawhat he's doing he's never

(57:26):
barely got a smartphone goaround the thing he's like why
is this bike making these littlewheels around this?
It's so nice, but that was afun part of the trip too.

So we got all these trips you have you have uh
it was a long ride.

It was a long ride.
At the end of it it was dark.
We get to the hotel and we'relike we got to get something to
eat.
Remember this, and don,remember don's 80 years old and
we were taking turns, kind oftreating each other to dinner.
You know, like scott would payher, I'd pay her, um, myron or
dave, and so, and don hadn'tpaid yet.
And we're driving in on thismain road we can see our hotel

(58:03):
and have this chinese buffetrestaurant.
The lights were like flickeringand we're on.
We're like we're so hungry butanywhere, but there we don't
want to eat there, and uh, andso we get back to the hotel and
we pass like a couple otherrestaurants and so where are we
going to go?
And don's like what did he say?

(58:24):
Chinese buffet.
He's like, hey, let's go tothat Chinese buffet, my treat.
So he probably had his hearingaids out because we already told
him.
We didn't want to go there, sowe go there, and it was rough,
but nobody got sick.
Yeah, nobody got sick.

But we went to the Chinese buffet and got our
treat.
I think it cost for six of us.

It was like $23 or something.
It was rough.
It was pretty funny.
But you have memories like thatwhere you have especially if
you go with Wade May you'regoing to eat, you're going to
stay in a crappy hotel andyou're going to eat crappy food.
No offense, wayne, no offense,but that's what he likes.
If it says quality in on theoutside, we're probably staying

(59:08):
there and you got to check forbed bugs.
It's part of the adventure.
People open the door to yourroom and you're like what are
you doing?
They're like this is my room, Ihave a key.
And we're like so, do we?
So how do we work this out.
So open door policy.
But, yeah, fun things like thatthat have happened on those

(59:32):
trips too, where you're justlike this is kind of crazy.
Or driving a huge bus downthrough rochester in the wrong
neighborhood to get to a goldencorral because wayne wanted to
go to a golden corral and we'relike we're gonna die.
We die, we're in the wrongneighborhood, but some fun
memories that way, too, it'sbeen fun.

This was a good adventure going on this
particular trip and I justwanted to have you guys on and
share some of the cool thingsthat we discovered.
Thanks for having us.

Myron Brandley (01:00:05):
Yeah, it was fun .

John Brandley (01:00:08):
I told you you were going to talk more than me
and you brought the microphoneBecause you made me sit here.
The right choice.

Scott Brandley (01:00:15):
Yeah, well, hopefully you guys have learned
some cool stuff that you didn'tknow before, and the whole point
of sharing all this with you isto help you gain a stronger
testimony.
If you're struggling with yourfaith, just to know that some of
these things are out, there isyou know, can help build your

(01:00:36):
faith, and our hope is that youknow it's built our faith and
testimony.
We are fortunate enough to gothere and see these things, but
hopefully us sharing this isgoing to help you as well.
So thank you for joining ustoday.
Thank you, guys for being onthe show.
We love you.
And tune in next week for myfifth and final installment

(01:01:01):
about my book faith to stay.
And if you want a free digitalcopy and a free audio copy, go
to faithtostaycom and you canget those there, and we will
talk to you next week withanother episode of Latter-day
Lights.
Until then, take care, bye-bye,bye Bye On today's episode, and

(01:01:40):
a friend and a bunch of otherpeople, some homeless people.
I just got to get through thispart and then we can actually
have a real conversation soWayne.
May Mark the reason why we wentto Illinois was because
somebody died.
I thought you showed thelaughing matter.

(01:02:02):
Yeah, okay.

All Episodes

Book of Mormon Discoveries near Nauvoo Illinois w/ John & Myron Brandley (Faith to Stay Part 4 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Book of Mormon Discoveries near Nauvoo Illinois w/ John & Myron Brandley (Faith to Stay Part 4 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights