Repentance & Forgiveness with Dave Higham & Kellen Winslow (Faith to Stay Part 3 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights - LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Episode Transcript
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Scott Brandley (00:00):
Hey everyone.
I'm Scott Brandley.
And I'm Alisha Coakley.
Every member of the church hasa story to share, one that can
instill faith, invite growth andinspire others.
On today's episode, we're goingto discuss the importance of
repentance and forgiveness andhow we can use these gifts to
live a more Christ-like life.
Welcome to Latter-day Lights.

(00:20):
Hey everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Latter-day
Lights.
We're so glad that you're herewith us today, and we have a
really special treat for youtoday.
This is actually the third partof a special five-part series

(00:43):
that I'm doing to kick off mybrand new book, faith to Stay,
and today's topic is actuallygoing to be related to one of
the things I talk about in thebook, which is repentance and
forgiveness, and so I've askedtwo of our previous guests to
come back on the show, and I'dlike to welcome back Kellen

(01:05):
Winslow and Dave Haim.
Welcome back, guys, it's goodto be back.
And, of course, I'd like towelcome Alisha, my co-host, back
to the show too.
I do feel like guests.

Alisha Coakley (01:19):
Lately I have been kind of in and out and
we've had some co-guest hostsfilling up my spots for me, so
it does feel a little like I'mrejoining.

Yeah Well, we're glad you're all here.
So this is kind of a differentformat.
Usually we have people come onand share their stories, but as
part of this series, I'mactually having a discussion
about different topics, and sotoday we're talking about
repentance and forgiveness, andthe reason why I brought Kellen

(01:53):
and Dave back on is because bothof their podcasts that they've
done previously were related tothose topics, and they were
incredibly good podcasts, right,Alisha?
Like wouldn't you say?

Oh my gosh, some of my favorites, like I mean
Kellen, you know, he's Kellen'sin my ward, kellen's in the
Bishop Reckonard ward and he'sjust, which I'm actually sad
about, because I loved you somuch as a Sunday school teacher
I was like dang it, now he'sjust gonna be an old bishop guy
actually, I actually really missthat calling.

Kellen Winslow (02:28):
It was really fun to teach.

We really miss having you but I just I loved
hearing from you and gettinglike your backstory and hearing
what you went through.
Um, you know both with withyour dad, and then also just
like the amazing career that youhave right now working in the
essentially the system with um,you know pedophiles and and um,

(02:55):
you know people who have had,like these, really serious sins
and and um, just like yourperspective from, that really
helped me to have moreChristlike love for people who
seem to be the big monsters inlife, right.
And then Dave, oh my gosh, ourpre-show conversation was two

(03:18):
hours.
Did we talk for two hours onthe phone or something like that
?
It was like insane.
I mean, it was just wonderfulconversation.
I loved your perspective andfrom from being, you know, um, I
don't want to give a lot ofspoilers and stuff because you
guys should just go watch bothof their episodes if you haven't
seen it but just from yourprocess of being in the
bishopric and then going throughexcommunication and working

(03:40):
your way back to the church nowand and just the hardships that
have happened there and some ofthe unfairness and and just the
gosh, the way that you're ableto forgive right, while going
through repentance too, is justmind blowing and I love what
you're doing and how you're justreally trying to find that one

(04:02):
sheep, you know, trying to findthe people who really need to be
welcomed back and really needto have that love and
forgiveness back.

Dave Higham (04:09):
So guys, let's turn that around.
Really, I need to forgive.
I need to repent more than Ineed to forgive others, but I
got to forgive others, but youknow it all.

I think it's all important.
So we're going to talk aboutall the things today.

Yeah, and I agree, I think so.
One of the things I talk aboutin my book is that repentance
and forgiveness are two sides ofthe same coin and you never
know what, day by day, whichside of the coin is going to
come up right, some days we'regoing to need to forgive and
some days we're going to need torepent, and maybe some days we
got to do both right, yeah, butyou never know what side of the

(04:46):
coin that's going to come up on.
So they they're definitelyrelated for sure.

Yeah, I love that analogy in your book, by
the way.
I read that part and I was likeyeah, I started I.
I hope it's okay, but I usethat analogy with some of my
groups, so oh, yeah.

Well, you guys both influenced me while I was
writing my book, and so I reallyappreciate your insights as
well.
So let's just kind of jumpright in.
So I'm just going to throw outa couple different questions and
let's kind of see where it goes.
So my first one is why do youthink repentance is important

(05:28):
and not just like the cookiecutter answer, so that we can
live with God again?
Why do you think it's important?
Either in your life or in thelives, for example, kellen,
maybe the lives of some of thepeople you work with?
Why is repentance so important?

work with.
Why is repentance so important?
Man, you're just jumping rightinto it, huh, you know.
First off, obviously I don't goa lot in depth with gospel
topics in my groups, but that'sbasically what therapy is is
repentance.
It's a non-religious way ofrepenting, I would say, and so
my job would be meaningless ifrepentance wasn't possible.

(06:10):
It became really clear to methat it was the atonement of
Jesus Christ that was allowingthese people to change, and they
don't necessarily have aknowledge of the atonement, so
you don't even need to have aknowledge of it to be blessed by
it, and it's essential forevery part of our life, and so
being immersed in a populationthat is in such a desperate need

(06:33):
of it made the contrast veryclear to me, and it wasn't
necessarily something I wasexpecting or even really wanting
to learn, but it just became soblatantly obvious that, uh,
everything in the world worksbecause we're we're able to
repent, and we're able to change, and we're able to be forgiven

(06:54):
for the things that we've doneto others and forgive others for
the things that they've done tous.
So, um, I don't know if youhave a follow-up question, but
it's very clear in my line ofwork, because there's no
alternative um without it.

So Okay, Dave Alisha thoughts on that ladies
first.

Oh, you know, I, I think for me, um, I feel like
repentance for me really freesme right, like it really helps
me to not get in my head.
And I mean, I'm not saying thatthis is just women, but I know
that women in general, we tendto overanalyze, overthink, we

(07:41):
tend to connect everythingtogether all the time.
So I feel like we're always ina state of thinking, thinking,
thinking, thinking, thinking,you know, and on top of that
then we're feeling, and thenwe're thinking about our
feelings and then we're feelingwhat we're thinking.
It's just like this unendingprocess of trying to pick apart
every little thing and when youdon't have repentance, I it

(08:06):
feels to me like it justoverloads the system.
You know what I mean, becausewe're constantly reliving over
and over and over again in thesin or whatever it is, and
whether it's I don't want to gointo forgiveness just yet, just
yet, but, um, regardless ofwhich side of repentance we're
on, whether we're on the sidewhere we're repenting because of

(08:28):
something that we've done orcaused or whatever, or we're
trying to see repentance inanother person and we're trying
to extend forgiveness for them Ithink the most important thing
is that we just are open to it,um, and that we understand that,
one, it's a process, right,like it's going to take time to
get through Um, and two, that wecontinually strive for it, uh,

(08:53):
in, even like the smallestthings, right, um, I think in my
experience it's just been oneof those things where, like,
when I can get throughrepentance, I no longer have
that constant barrage ofthoughts in my head over and
over again about how bad I wasor how much shame I carry, or

(09:18):
how I should have done better,or how I was like missing the
bar again or whatever it is, andso that I, just from a woman's
perspective, I think is like oneof the many reasons why it's so
important for us to repent.
We don't drive ourselves crazy,you know, and that's kind of
service level, right, but that'sjust one of the things that

(09:40):
I've noticed with repentance.

Okay, dave, thoughts, I would say that one
of the things I've noticed withrepentance.
Okay, Dave thoughts.

I would say that in answering that question I just
will look back at my ownexperience.
Five years ago I wasexcommunicated and for the past
five years I have not had theopportunity to get back into the
church until I had beenconsidered repentant enough.
So for the last five years, asI think about the experiences

(10:12):
I've had and where my life hascome along those five years,
it's very hard in some ways tospeak to it.
I was telling this to a friendyesterday morning from years ago
.
It's kind of hard to speak tojust how much of a blessing it

(10:33):
is, because you don't want tocome across as insensitive to
those who might be hurtingbecause of me.
But what an incredible ridethis has been, with the downs
and the ups and everything.
But what I have developed out ofthat is a perspective towards
who I am, who my relationship isto Heavenly Father and Jesus

(10:54):
Christ and what Christ has donefor me, as well as what it has
done in so many other aspects ofmy life.
It's just a growth opportunityin so many ways.
I'm not saying I'm done growing.
I'm not saying I'm perfect oranything like that.
I've got a long ways to go butI sure like what it's done for
me over the past five years asfar as a growth for my

(11:17):
perspective on things, how I seethe gospel, how I see the
church, how I see myresponsibility in who I am and
what I do.
And so I would say that's whyit's important for me is for
what it has given me.
Going through that process tothe sometimes a joke that I went
through the doctor program onit, but but I'm very grateful

(11:41):
for as hard as the experienceswere and as sad as I am for some
of those who might still behurting.
I am so very thankful for theexperiences that I've been given
.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have to say, one of the things, too,
that I've noticed is like inwhen I'm, when I'm repenting and
I truly understand what it is Idid wrong.
It helps me to have a betterunderstanding of other people
who do other things wrong,whether they're like the same
thing or whatever else.
it's all of a sudden like oh, Iget it, you know it's so easy to
judge people and to be like, ohmy gosh, I can't believe that

(12:14):
you did that, I would never dothat, I would never.
And we just we never know whichslope is slipperiest for us
until we know right.
And so I think sometimes whenyou, when you experience that
hardship and you're like, oh mygosh, like you, you hit your own
rock bottom all of a sudden.
It kind of gives you a greaterperspective of what other people

(12:35):
are going through and and thenyou do things like not that you
necessarily condone the behavior, but you understand the person
more, you can have a little morecompassion on them.
I know that was one of one of mybig things and and Kellen's
episode actually helped me withit too but just with experience

(12:57):
experiencing sexual abuse when Iwas, when I was a child, I feel
like through my own repentanceof different things, I
understood then how trauma canreally affect a person's
decision to sin Right, and Ihave been able to forgive my

(13:18):
abusers and genuinely like wantthem to have healing and why I
want them to have growth and Iwant them, you know, like I'm
not at that place where I'm likewishing that they were just
executed or, you know kicked off.
You know kicked off the Americancontinent and sent to some hot
jungle with lots of bugs and youknow whatever else.

(13:41):
I feel like it's just reallyhelped me to be able to have
more of an understanding andcompassion towards, towards
people and and for me not tohave such a big head and think
I'm above all, that I'm abovebeing tempted or I'm above you
know what I mean.
It's like oh yeah, I know, I'mlike I'm much more aware of
where satan could get menowadays, you know, and I'm I

(14:05):
better stay away from thatbecause I know that's one of my
slopes you know.

Yeah, well, I think that's a good transition,
because you talked a little bitabout forgiveness, Alisha.
How does repentance andforgiveness work together,
especially when, dave, I thinkabout your situation a lot
because when we aired ourepisode, there were a lot of
people that made comments thatwere really appreciative of you

(14:34):
having the guts to come out andget on a podcast and talk about
it for one.
Yeah, and there were a lot ofpeople that could relate to it,
especially people that had beenexcommunicated or
disfellowshipped.
They, they could feel a lot ofthe struggles that you were
feeling on the one side, um, andthe and the repentance piece of
it, but then on the other side,we also got people that, like,

(14:58):
wrote us and told us like youneed to take that off, you know,
like he hurt a lot of people,and so on your side, it's unique
because on the one side, thereis repentance because of choices
that were made, but then alsothere's people that are
incredibly hurt and angry andmad, and so it's weird because

(15:25):
there almost needs to beforgiveness from you because of
how they're treating you.

Right.

Right, Like it's like this weird thing going on.
I don't know Any thoughts onthat, Dave.
There's like repentance andforgiveness at the same time.

One of the great blessings that comes from an
experience like I've beenthrough is you more clearly
understand what it's like to notforgive and to judge because of
what you feel.

(16:10):
To judge because of what youfeel, and what that has done for
me is it's made me more keenlyaware of when I start leading,
maybe, down that line, if myline of thinking starts going
that way towards somebody.
I know how that feels forsomebody else.
I know how damaging that can be, how hurtful it can be and how
it just doesn't help.

(16:31):
And so from my perspective,it's really helped me a lot to
be far less judgmental of othersand to forgive others, because
you just realize that you don'tknow everything.
You don't know the whole storynecessarily.
You don't know what.
You just don't have necessarily.

(16:54):
I don't have the full pictureof somebody else, so how dare I
judge them and how dare I tryand put them through something
like what I have experienced?
And so I don't want to ever dothat to anybody.
I try hard to not be judgmentalof anybody, because I have felt
just how much of a burden thatis, especially if I'm going to

(17:16):
try and be Christ-like.

Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.
Well, kellen, you're kind of inan interesting boat too,
because you're dealing withpeople that have done horrific
things and you have to hear that.
Or, like you're saying, I thinkyou said, sometimes you have to
watch videos and things thatare damaging to your spirit.
How does forgiveness work inyour world?

spirit.
How do you, how doesforgiveness work in your world?
Oh, uh, when you asked thatquestion, I was like I there's a
lot, there's a lot that I wantto say about this.
So, um, I don't even know whereto begin.
Honestly, when I took this jobon, I was not prepared to
grapple with some of thequestions that I now have to
grapple with.
Things like what is justice?

(18:07):
You know, for example, what isjustice?
So we have a person whocommitted a pretty heinous crime
and let's say they get 20 yearsin prison and they finish their
prison sentence.
Is that justice?
Like, did that magically makethe harm go away?
Or did that like what is a justpunishment, make the harm go
away?
Or did that like what is a justpunishment or what is what is?

(18:28):
And if we want to talk aboutmercy, like, is that fair for
someone who was harmed in such ahorrific way for this person to
be shown mercy in some way?
And so I've been grappling withthese questions of like what?
What is the difference betweentemporal and eternal justice?
And how do I can kind of howcan I kind of bring a balance

(18:50):
between those two things in myjob, because these guys have
technically completed theirsentence.
They're not in prison anymore,they're not inmates, they're
citizens, but they are in aconfined treatment facility
because of the decisions theymade and because the state of
Texas decided to put them there.
And so I think about, likecertain clients, for example,

(19:11):
they committed their crimes 30years ago and, because of the
things that they did, some oftheir victims have taken their
own lives, or some of theirvictims' parents took their own
lives, or whatever it might be,and so they've complete their
sentence.
They've outlived the victimthat that they created.
Like how is, how is that a justthing, you know?

(19:34):
How is that fair, you know?
And so I?
I did not know how to comprehendthis, but as soon as I started
to see, kind of.
So there's this reallyinteresting poem by TS Eliot.
It's called Little Getting.
I just want to read four lines.
It's like 700 lines, so I'm notgoing to read the whole thing,
but there are four lines I wantto read.

(19:55):
Okay, ts Eliot, little Getting,we shall not cease from
exploration, and the end of allour exploring will be to arrive
where we started and know theplace for the first time.
Okay, so this idea of repentanceand this idea of forgiveness is
a cycle, and where you startand where the cycle ends is the

(20:16):
same exact place, but you'rejust seeing it with a new lens
and you're going to go throughthat cycle a million different
times.
You're going to think, man, Ithought I repented of this.
But now you see it from a newangle and you're like now I got
to repent about this.
Or, man, I thought I forgavethis person for what they did.
And now it's starting to feelthis way again and you see it
with a new lens.
And so now you find new thingsthat you have to repent of and

(20:38):
or forgive somebody of.
And then there's also the thirddynamic of like forgiving
yourself for things that you'vedone.
You know that's something thatmy clients have a really hard
time with, because these aren'tjust heartless people who did
horrible things and they'resitting there like you know this
is.
You know I'm the victim here.
You know these are men who didhorrible things and understand

(21:00):
that they did these things andare living with the consequences
of that.
None of my clients woke up whenthey were eight years old and
said I want to be a sex offenderone day.
There are millions of thingsthat have happened that have
pushed them in this direction,and I actually had.
I'm really grateful that youguys reached out to me, because
I was in a group today with 12men earlier today and I knew

(21:24):
that I was going to be in thepodcast, and so I asked them.
I said, look, I'm going to bespeaking about you guys later
today, about I didn't sayrepentance, because I don't want
to get religious, but abouthealing and about forgiveness.
So, guys, just tell me what,what do you want me to say?
And kind of the overall themethat they kept coming to was I

(21:45):
don't know if I deserveforgiveness, I don't know if I'm
worthy of it, not even justfrom the person that I
victimized, but like myself.
How can I ever come to forgivemyself for the things that I've
done?
Because they recognize what hashappened.
And so do you understand now,like the complexity of this
relationship, that, likerepentance and forgiveness isn't

(22:05):
just like an event, it doesn'thappen on like a Tuesday night,
one day, and it's just like done.
It's a consistent pattern ofsmall changes that you're making
here and small forgiveness thatyou're giving here, and it's a
consistent pattern of becomingbetter than you were yesterday,
even if that's a very smallincrease and a very small change
.
And these guys are doing that.

(22:28):
I'm telling you, they are menwho are trying to change their
lives.
They feel horrible for whatthey did and at the end of the
day they're men who are tryingto better their life.
And it takes changing theirnature, but it also takes
forgiving themselves for thethings that they did.
And they may never hear thewords I forgive you from the
victim.
In fact, it's illegal for themto even have contact, so that's

(22:52):
never going to happen, and soit's a very tricky situation to
kind of try to navigate,especially from a treatment and
then also from a religiousstandpoint.
It's very difficult, but itgives me a lot of appreciation
for the atonement, becausethat's the only way that these
things make sense in the end,you know.

(23:13):
So.

Interesting.
Well, and with you being amember of the church and having
that, that eternal perspective,like, do you ever think or want
to say to them you are forgiven,you are good enough?

Absolutely.
I wanted to say it todaybecause my clients were sitting
there, One of my favoriteclients that I've been working
with for the longest time.
He's sitting there and he'sjust saying my, you know the
victims I created.
They're dead.
They took their own lives.
How am I ever going to pay thisdebt that I have to them?
And I wanted so badly to belike there is a plan for you,

(23:56):
brother.
You know, there is a plan foryou.
The Lord hasn't forgotten thisthing that happened.
And the Lord is just as much ashe's aware of the harm you've
caused.
He's he's aware of a path tohealing.
And if we could just get youthere, you know, but I obviously
I can't say that in treatment,you know, but I just want so
badly to become a missionary inthose moments and just preach to

(24:18):
them the miracle of forgiveness.

You know yeah, wow, Alisha, do you have any
thoughts about forgiveness?

I mean, I know, you know you had some difficult
things happen yeah, you know,when I, when kellen was speaking
, I was thinking about how, uh,you know, you were talking about
the complexity of it.
And I think when you, when youread the scriptures, they they
talk about repent daily, repentoften, repent all the time, like
you're always in a state ofrepentance and forgiveness and
stuff like that, right, and Ithink that, um, one of the

(24:52):
reasons why is because we are socomplex as children of God,
right, like we are such divinecreatures that we're not just
going to be some simple formula.
I'm like, oh, check, mark, thisis done.
And so, even even with, like,the years and years that I've,
um spent working on just my owntrauma and stuff like that from

(25:12):
the past, last week it's matters, and not even it was probably
four days ago, five days ago, Ihad this, um, john and I were
having this really, just reallyin-depth conversation about how,
even today, even though I haveall this knowledge, I know what
my triggers are, I know that I'msafe, I know all of this kind

(25:34):
of stuff I still have thesemoments where I am affected by
the trauma and it.
It it makes me do or not dothings that I should or
shouldn't do, if that makessense, right, like, like it's
like this weird, like I'm likethat's so stupid.
Why am I doing that?
Or why am I not doing this, um,and I know why, but it's still

(25:59):
affecting my behaviors, you know, and it just it's so
frustrating, right and, and inthis conversation I all of a
sudden, for the very first timein 37 years that seems crazy In
37 years I realized I still havesome hurt that I didn't address

(26:23):
.
I kind of broke down and Irealized, as much as I love and
trust Heavenly Father I'm, Ithink I still have to forgive
him for not protecting me as achild, you know, and I'm like,

(26:43):
oh my gosh, like where did thatcome from?
Because I never in a millionyears like thought that I blamed
Heavenly Father for not beingthere.
And I know other people have, Iknow that there's that's a
really common thing for somepeople, but it was never my
thing.
You know, my thing was alwaysput on other people.
It was always put on, you know,my abusers.
Or it was put on like my familyfor not knowing what was going

(27:06):
on, or, um, my teachers for notknowing what was going on,
whatever else.
But I never once thought that Iblamed God and to all of a
sudden realize there's a littlepart of me that that does you
know, there's a little part ofme that doesn't trust him in
that sense, and I now need towork on that relationship.
I need to work on thatforgiveness, and I don't want to

(27:27):
be.
I don't want to be angry.

You know what I?

mean Like the last person in the universe that
I want to be angry at, becausehe's the one that you know gives
me everything, and and so justhaving that realization, I'm
like gosh, like I'm still goingthrough this repentance and
forgiveness thing, dang, youknow.
And and to to the point of thevictims, or to the point of the

(27:50):
the um, uh, the men that thatKellen's working with, I think,
too, they're realizing just howmuch of a ripple effect there is
when we sin, right Like it.
There is no sin that onlyaffects us.
There's not, and that's such anunfortunate thing.
But at the same time, thatmeans that there's no

(28:15):
forgiveness that just affects us, and there's also no healing
that just affects us.
So when we heal, how much of aripple effect does our healing
create for generations to come?
How much does that reach out to, to other people, whether
they're in our circle or not?
You know what I mean it's.
It's like it's this beautifullycomplicated system I think the

(28:40):
heavenly father put into place,and I think he put it into place
so that we can really becomelike him and have all the
perspective.
You know, I like what you said,kellen, about like it's a cycle
and it's like going back towhere you began and
understanding where that isCause all of a sudden you're
like, oh, okay, it sort ofreminds me, scott, when you in

(29:00):
your book, you talk about thestory we tell ourselves right.
And I think that throughrepentance and forgiveness we
get to continually create a newversion of the story over and
over again that's even moreintricate and even more
beautiful, and charactersdevelop stronger and
circumstances become morecomplex but also more
interesting to read.

(29:21):
You know, we kind of get out ofthat surface level of black and
white and we get to see all ofthe different colors that are in
the story and so, um, yeah,it's.

Can I share a thought from that?
For sure, this is, uh, the waymy brain works.
But, um, you know, the firstgreat command we're told is to
love god, and the second is tolove others as ourselves, which
to me means that really all thecommandments are based on

(29:53):
relationships.
Yeah, and the betterrelationship we have with god,
the better we're going to feelabout ourselves.
And if we look at it that way,really sin is anything we do
that damages one of thoserelationships, whether it's with
ourselves, which would affect,naturally, our relationship with

(30:13):
God, or a relationship withsomebody else, which means like
if you think of any sin, you canthink of it's damaging one or
two or three of thoserelationships.
Therefore, repentance is reallythe process of healing
relationships.
It's the process of trying toput things back together again,

(30:35):
to make restitution wherepossible, to apologize where
possible, and to me, that makesit easier to see repentance as a
daily thing is that in everyday, I'm trying to build my
relationship with the Savior,I'm trying to build the
relationship with myself anddevelop my own Christ-like
skills, and I'm trying to buildrelationships with other people.

(30:56):
Now, sometimes somerelationships maybe are too
toxic to go back to at the time,and we have to.
I'm not saying that we shouldtry to heal relationships that
both sides aren't willing tohave a healthy relationship in.
I think it relates.
I think the principle goes backto King Benjamin in Mosiah 4,

(31:19):
where he talks about helpingother people financially and
serving others.
He says if you can't do it, youcan't do it.
But I want your attitude to bethat I'll do it as soon as I can
.
I'll do it when I get to thatpoint I can that we can't yet
have a good, healthyrelationship with.

(31:40):
Our responsibility is to prepareourselves so that when the
other individual is ready tohave a healthy relationship,
we're ready to step into thatrelationship with them, as
opposed to just writing it off.
I think that's part of the workthat we can do on our own.
Perhaps that's part offorgiveness, perhaps that's part
of repentance, maybe it's thecoin of the day, right, but to

(32:01):
me that's how it's become.
Most simplified for me as towhat repentance really is is
trying to heal relationshipsthat get damaged by sin.
I love that, yeah.

Can I say something on top of that too?
So I love how you brought thatin, because that's the way that
I help my because I work withoffenders and I also work with
victims.
So I see, sometimes it's atough day because I'm going from
one to the other and it's likeholy smokes.
So I talk about this a lot withthe victims that I work with,

(32:40):
because people, especiallyindividuals who have gone
through these really horrificevents and rightfully so, and I
understand why that they have toclimb and it stops them from
proceeding down this you knowthe process of forgiveness

(33:03):
because they're so worried aboutthat end goal of forgiving this
person, and so I always talk tothem about look, it's not about
when you finish the process,it's when you start it, and you
start the process by maybe notgoing to that mountain yet.
But just let's find other areaswhere you need forgiveness in
your life.
Maybe, like Alisha was bringingup, she felt the need like well,

(33:25):
maybe I need to forgive God forthis.
Maybe I need to forgive myparents because I blame them for
not protecting me.
Maybe I have a friend who kindof set this up for me and I need
to forgive her or him.
Maybe we're not at the personthat you need to forgive yet,
but there are other people thatwould benefit from forgiveness
from you, and that's where weshould start, because I don't

(33:45):
think you're ready to go to themountaintop, but I think you are
ready to start the process andat least feel the power that
comes from forgiveness and letthat drive you forward to where
you need to be in your life.
So I love that perspectivebecause it's exactly how I
approach it with my clients.

I really like that, kellen, where you're
talking about like maybe youcan't forgive this person, but
let's start here.
You know, let's start with withmaybe the ones who aren't the
closest relationships and didn'thave a big hand in it.
And you know, I think in partof that too is in order to get
to that top person.
I joked about this a little bit, but I'm kind of serious.

(34:25):
You know, we're commanded topray for those who despitefully
use us right and who manipulateus and whatever else, and
sometimes that prayer is like Ihope that they stub their toe
and step on the Lego and theyhave a frog jump in their car.
It's praying for them.
It's just not praying nicethings for them, but at least

(34:46):
you're like putting somethinginto it, right.
However, you know, one of thethings that I that I have done
is for my healing.
I prayed not to necessarily beable to have these people back
in my life or whatever else, butum, but my prayer has always
been that they'll find thepeople, or that God will send

(35:07):
the people to them who will helpthem with their own healing so
that they no longer do that toanybody else.
And so, like, if that's themost that I can ever pray for
for those people, then that'sthe most that I can ever pray
for them.
And at least it's not damagingto them and it's not something
that is keeping them in a stateof being an offender or being
you know what I mean Like notbeing able to grow from from

(35:29):
that and continually to to putthat harm on other people.
So maybe that's the only thingyou can pray for is just pray
that they'll find healing Notwith you, but that's fine.
Whatever.
Pray that they find healing sothat they no longer do this to
somebody else, you know.
So it's not something that theycontinue on on the path with.

Yeah, all right Next topic.
All right, next topic.
So one of the things that Ithink people struggle a lot with
and I think one of you hit onit was the idea if I forgive
somebody, then they're kind ofgetting off right, they're

(36:14):
getting away with it, and thatkind of leads to the idea of you
know the commandment, wherewe're commanded to forgive or
else the bigger sin is on us.
And that kind of led me downthis path where I talk about in

(36:34):
the book, as repentance andforgiveness are mutually
exclusive events.
In the book, as repentance andforgiveness are mutually
exclusive events and that waskind of a big aha that I had
when I was writing it where thetransgressors salvation is 100%
dependent on their ability tofeel genuine remorse for what
they've done and to sincerelyask for forgiveness from right,

(36:58):
Regardless of whether that theother person forgives them.

Right.

And the victim.
Their salvation is 100% tied totheir ability to forgive the
transgressor, regardless ofwhatever the transgressor did or
whether they ever asked forforgiveness.
So I'd like to talk about thatfor a minute.
Get you guys' thoughts on that.

I have never heard that put that way until I read
that in your book and I thoughtthat's so insightful.
It's hard for me being the onein the public eye that's the
sinner in my situation, but atthe same time I do have to be.
I do have to.

(37:46):
I'm of the opinion that if I'mgoing to repent, I have to
forgive first, and I was out fora walk with my wife tonight and
talking more about why I feelthat way and I've thought, you
know if you think about.
So think about for yourself whatis the biggest offense or the

(38:10):
hardest person you've ever hadto forgive for, something Like,
what is that biggest thing?
And think whatever that is,you're asking God to do
something like that for you.
You're asking him to forgive youof that and to push it away and
take it.
You know Christ to take it on aspart of his atonement, and for

(38:33):
me that makes it all the morepersonal as to what the
atonement is doing for me, whatthe Savior is doing for me and
being willing to forgive me forwhat I've done that has hurt
relationships with him, withothers, and just as I take time

(38:58):
to think and ponder about whatI'm asking him to take from me
or, sorry, what I have toforgive others for.
That makes me more appreciativeof what he's willing to forgive
me of and what he's willing totake on for me.
So in my mind, like we've donethe two coins, all that other

(39:21):
kind of conversation, but I dothink they're two very different
things.
But I and maybe I'm jumpingahead, I don't know what your
questions are coming up, but butthe forgiving part is, and
they're repenting part therethey are two mutually exclusive,
exclusive things with, like yousay, but uh, but we both have
to do both.

(39:41):
Maybe I'm just repeating whatwe've done, but I love the way
you, I love the way you laidthat out.

they really are mutually exclusive well in my
mind, dave, like, for example,in your, in your situation,
right, like something happenedand that triggered a series
series of events for a lot ofother people.
But now that's theirresponsibility.
They have that mountain toovercome, like Kellen was saying

(40:11):
right.
But I think that's part of whyGod does it that way, because
those things are now put intheir path for them to.
It's a cycle, like you weresaying too, kellen, where now
they've got something thatthey've got to overcome to
refine themselves, to becomebetter.
And it might not have been achallenge that they asked for,

(40:34):
but really are any of thechallenges we're given things we
ask for, right?
So in some ways those aredifficulties that were put on
them, but in other ways thosecould be blessings, because as
they overcome that challenge andthey forgive, they become

(40:55):
better for it, and blessings cancome out of of bad things,
right.
So, anyway, it's kind of aninteresting thought, kellen,
Alisha, do you have any thoughtson on that idea?

yes, I do so.
Uh, if, if you look atstatistics okay, so if you look
at an abuser, for example, andyou screen 100 abusers and you
find out who has also beensexually abused in their own
life, you're looking atsomewhere between 25 to 30% of
sexual abusers have also beenabused sexually.

(41:30):
But if you expand that to justany type of abuse physical abuse
, emotional abuse, neglect it'sin the 90% Like there's roughly
about 90% of offenders have beenoffended against somehow in
their life and so probably thenumber one, like part of my job,
is like okay, why did you dothis?
And the answer changes over themany years that I get to work

(41:51):
with these individuals, butearly on the answer oftentimes
is because this was done to me.
I did this to someone elsebecause it was done to me, and I
hate when I hear that answerbecause it's an excuse, but I
also love to hear that answerbecause it's an opportunity for
me to teach them one of the mostessential truths in healing you

(42:14):
may not be to blame for thethings that have happened to you
, but you're sure as heckresponsible for handling them
correctly and that was not aresponsible way to handle what
happened to you You're not toblame for what that person did
to you when you were a child,but going off and as an adult,
and doing the same thing isn'tresponsible.
You're not takingresponsibility for how you want
to heal from this, you know.

(42:35):
And so there's this huge, hugepart, like the question you
brought up originally was like,well, if I forgive them, I'm
giving them off scot-free.
And it's like no, you're not.
You're not to blame for theharm that they cause for you,
but you are now responsible forcarrying your burden correctly
and I have a job, because peopledidn't take responsibility of
their part in their healing andI've seen horrible stories of

(43:00):
this happened to me.
Therefore, I'm doing this tosomebody else, and one of my
favorite scripture stories iswhen the woman is healed of a
blood issue of 12 years, and thereason why that's one of my
favorite stories is because,obviously, there's this grand
miracle.
Right, she is waiting throughthis crowd and she touches the
hem of the Savior's garment andshe's miraculously healed from

(43:21):
her faith.
But there's another miracle inthat story that we often
overlook and that's the miracleof her being able to go through
12 years of not being healed andnot becoming bitter and not
blaming God and not blamingother people.
She was able to go through those12 years and when her moment of

(43:44):
healing came, she was ready,and that's a miracle.
That's the daily bread rightthat you're getting every day,
that is sustaining you throughthis trial, and there are people
that I know, that I work with,who are victims of their crimes,
that have been waiting a lotlonger, for 12 years, to get

(44:05):
their healing or to hear thosewords I'm sorry, or whatever it
might be, and you can't let thatmake you bitter towards the
actual process of healing, whichis the Savior, which is His
atonement, and so I think thisis really important because they
are mutually exclusive.

(44:26):
They're exclusive to theindividuals in the circumstance,
but within every individual,they're not mutually exclusive.
Part of your repentance willprobably have to be forgiving
somebody, and part of youforgiving somebody, or forgiving
yourself honestly, is to repent.
You know, and so it's.
I could talk about this all day, so I'll stop and you let

(44:48):
someone else, but it's just,it's something that I see every
single day, so I appreciate youbringing that up.

Yeah.

Yeah, I could listen all day, kellen, yeah
yeah, I feel like you have suchdeep insight into that kind of
stuff and it just like triggersall these extra thoughts.
For me, one of the things thatyou know, I guess that I was
kind of thinking about just nowis the fact that, um, in that,

(45:16):
that endurance of however longit takes to go through
repentance and to go throughforgiveness, and they're not
necessarily always going to bedone at the same time.
It's not like yeah.
I'm healed and I forgave someone.
You know, it's like one Isometimes I just push heavenly
father would just take it allaway.

(45:37):
It would be so easy for him.
You know, I'm like I mean, comeon, you created universes.
Can't you just get rid of thisthing and just make me be healed
?
And why do I have to do all thework?
It's just not fair.
So a part of me, my, my littletoddler self, it's just like I
just want you to do it all forme.
And then the other part of meis like, when I look back at the

(45:57):
things that I have been able to, to come through, and when I
really think about all of thegrowth that's happened for me,
and I think about even thingslike, you know, during the peak
of my healing, like when I waslike really just digging deep
and I was feeling everything andI was going through therapies
and, um, I mean just hurting sobad because I was dredging up

(46:22):
everything that I had buried foryears.
That's when I was called intoyoung women and the most
heartbreaking thing was that inbeing in that leadership
position these girls because Iwas going through my own healing
at the time I think theyrecognized a part of themselves
in me and they started openingup to me about the abuse that

(46:46):
was happening to them.
And then, all of a sudden, Iwas in a position where I was
like, if I had had someone talkto me early on, how much further
in life could I have been if Istarted my healing process
sooner.
You know what I mean.
And so I had a lot of reallydeep conversations with the
young women who were beingabused or who had been abused.

(47:08):
I had these really hard,tearful conversations with them
where I felt the spirit and Ifelt like I was really being led
to be able to guide themtowards resources.
Like I didn't have to be theresource and I felt like I was
really being led to be able toguide them towards resources.
Like I didn't have to be theresource, I could just be the
connection.
You know what I mean.
I could just say, look, Ireally think that maybe this is
what you should do, or this ishow you should act, or this is

(47:30):
the book you should read orwhatever it was.
And and same thing with justwomen my own age, you know, um,
during those it was probablyabout five or six years that I
really really dug into it.
I can't tell you the amount ofwomen that would just they
because I was being open withwhere I was at, they felt safe

(47:52):
and talking to me about wherethey were at and I was able to
connect them to all theseresources and stuff like that
that helped them heal.
So I didn't have to be thehealer, you know, like I didn't
have to do that, but it made mefeel like I could see a little
bit of the purpose in it.
I could see what Scott wastalking about.
We're like Heavenly Father canuse the bad to have good happen.

(48:12):
Um, and so, while, yes, I wanteverything to be done easily for
me, I get to get these littleglimpses of Heavenly Father's
plan and I get to see where, youknow, we have our agency, but

(48:43):
he also has a that we wentthrough.
That takes a little bit of thesting away from what happened to
us.
You know, just in my ownpersonal experience, like I feel
like it makes it less painfulfor me because I'm getting
outside of myself and I'mthinking, okay, what about them?
How can I help them, you know,so that they don't have to feel

(49:06):
this for as long as they felt it.
So I don't know if that reallyanswered any questions, but that
was just a thought that I had.

Well, your, your thoughts sparked a thought for
me.
So you talked about how God isa creator and he created the
universe, and why can't he justtake these things away from me?
And so there's a lot of ancientmyths about creation, and they
all kind of tell the same story.
Like all of them have some sortof chaotic monster that's

(49:36):
threatening the universe, andthen some being comes and
destroys that monster and usesthat monster to create the
universe.
And the Genesis story is verysimilar.
You know, god comes across thischaotic void that has
unorganized matter and heorganizes that to create the
world.
And so God is not somebody whopoofs things in and out of its
existence.
He's somebody who comes acrossunorganized chaos and organizes

(50:00):
it into something grander andmore beautiful than what it was
before.
And so, something that I tell myclients a lot of times that are
going through this chaoticprocess of healing, it's like be
grateful because you're givingthe Lord materials to work with.
Like you feel, like your lifeis chaotic.
That's good, that's somethingthat the Lord can use and turn
into something beautiful.
And you'll look back at yourlife five years from now or

(50:23):
whatever it might be, and you'lllook at all the chaos that was
going on and you'll see whatcame from it and it's more
beautiful than you would haveever imagined.
And that's the creation of God.
That's the work that he does.
It's not just poofing things inand out, it's organizing
something that is there.
That may seem chaotic at thetime, so I just thought I'd

(50:44):
share that.

I love that.
I don't know why this is goingto sound bad, but I think of
trash art.
Yeah, no honestly taking trashand she creates like these, like
really unique pieces of artwith it and stuff, and I'm like
oh, I don't want to say trash,but you know a hot mess art.

I don't know.
But so, kellen, you've taken meto a thought.
If I can share, cut it out ifyou want.
You know, we know we come toearth to learn.
We know we come to earth tolearn and we have that saying
that we've heard in the churchforever.
That along the lines of themore intelligence we gain in

(51:28):
this life, the better it is forus in the next, and I've always
thought of that.
As you know, that's kind ofunfair for people that have
learning disabilities and allthat kind of stuff, and and and.
Does it really matter if weknow the names of all the tribes
and what their blessings allare, and that kind of thing?
I think the thing that's mostimpressive about God is that he

(51:54):
respects our agency enough to bequiet through that kind of
stuff.
Like what kind of self controlmust it take to create a planet,
put people on it and see thiskind of horrible stuff happen

(52:15):
and bite your tongue and and andand.
Try to inspire people, try toprompt people along to do the
right thing, but not step onagency and instead provide
whatever support you can forwhoever will accept that support
to help you out or whatever inthe aftermath of the damage

(52:35):
that's done.
But how do we learn that and tohave that kind of self-control
that God has, to have that kindof power and see that kind of
stuff happen and go?
Ok, I'm instead going toKellen's listening to me, I'm
going to give Kellen somepromptings and he can step into

(52:57):
this person's life and give themsome guidance and some help and
some recovery hope.
Because for whatever I can't Ican't step on agency and I think
of all the intelligence thingsthat we have to learn, one of
the most amazing thingschallenging, difficult things
would be to have that kind ofpower and not overstep

(53:19):
somebody's agency and insteadwork with whoever you can work
with to inspire, to lift, toguide, to help the individual
that's hurting and as soon asthey get, which is why I think
we want in life to surroundourselves as much as possible
with people who can feel thespirit and are willing to be
prompted, because that's howGod's going to answer.

(53:41):
Most of our prayers is topeople who are willing to be
prompted.
So if we can keep people in ourcircles and in our lives who
are prompted by God, he's goingto respond to us much better
than he can by not oversteppingour agent, somebody's agency
when they're doing somethinghorrific.

I love that perspective of keeping this is
how I'm going to deserve my kidsscream Hopefully they're okay.
I love that.
I love that perspective of,like, keeping godly people in
your life, you know, because youknow that they're going to be,
you know, looking forinspiration and they're going to
be doing the things that aregoing to help them keep in tune

(54:19):
with the spirit.
So, even if you're in aposition where you just feel
like you can't be that godlyperson all the time, or 100%, or
even, you know, 20% Like I lovethe thought of surround
yourself with other godly people.
Let God use them.
You know he can use anybody.

That's how I survived the past five years.

Oh.

Is putting people that God was able to work with
to help me.

That's awesome.

I think that's so powerful and you're so.
I guess my thought sparked athought and Alisha, which
sparked a thought in me, whichsparked a thought in you, and
now it's coming back to me Likethis is what the discussion's
for, right, scott?
So I just, you know, I'mfascinated by this concept of
meekness, okay.

(55:06):
So, Alisha, you've probablyheard this, I've said this at
church before, but to myknowledge I've studied it out
but I can't find another.
I don't think there's any otherverse in the New Testament in
which the Lord describes himselfthrough a character trait.
So most of the time when theLord describes himself, he's
testifying of himself I'm thelight, I'm the truth, I'm the

(55:27):
way.
Whatever it might be the onlytime that I can find in at least
New Testament scripture whenthe Lord describes himself with
a character trait.
He says I am, you know, comeunto me all you that are heavy
laden and are burdened, heavyladen, and learn of me, for I am
meek, I am meek.
And so that sparked a thoughtin me, like if the Lord is using
that specific word, he couldhave used any word, he could use

(55:48):
humble, whatever, but he chosemeek.
And if that's the word he'susing, then I better understand
what that means.
And the Greek word preos is theterm that they, the word that
they use for meekness, andAristotle uses it in Nicodemus
ethics, and he he describesmeekness as the perfect point

(56:10):
between anger and whatever.
The opposite of that is it'slike the perfect point.
And he says we can call the manmeek who is angry at the right
person at the right time, forthe right reason, for the right
amount of time.
And you're talking about thisconcept of self-control and
God's self-control about notintervening on our agency.

(56:31):
But now you take that a stepfurther, for like forgiveness
and how much self-control itmust take to forgive somebody.
There's times you want to ripthat person's head off and
there's times that you may wantto go too far into forgiveness
about bringing somebody backinto your life.
And there's like that you maywant to go too far into
forgiveness about bringingsomebody back into your life.
And there's like a very fineline between forgiving someone

(56:52):
correctly and forgiving someonein a way that might harm you
further.
And then, with repentance too,it's like this fine balance
between being too hard onyourself and being too
empathetic towards yourself.
But then there's like a fineline between proper repentance
and taking it too far or nottaking it far enough.
Yeah, and so when you talkedabout like this grand sense of

(57:13):
self-control in God, it's likethat's exactly who he is.
He is meek.
That's the only way hedescribed himself.
There's no other way that hewould describe himself.
That's exactly who he is andwe're supposed to learn that.
Like that is difficult.
We're supposed to learn how todo that same thing.
You know, I haven't figured itout yet, but I'd love to one day

(57:37):
, you know so.

But I think that forgiveness and repentance are
two of.
I haven't always thought ofthis, but I think that they're
two of the greatest gifts thatGod has given us, because they
do help us.
Like you were saying, dave,they help us to overcome the
chaos in the world.
Right, god has given us agencyand he's given everyone agency,

(58:04):
and we all infringe on eachother's agency constantly
through the decisions we make,but through repentance and
forgiveness, we're able to makesense of it.
We're able to overcome andbecome better for the chaos that
we go through and thechallenges and the hard times,
and we become refined and webecome like him because of the

(58:26):
gifts of repentance andforgiveness.
That was my aha that I had fromyour aha.
Oh, that's awesome.
Um, I did want to read Ihaven't done this on the other
things, but I wanted to read apiece of my book that I think

(58:48):
kind of ties, ties together thiswhole idea of repentance and
forgiveness and how they help usto live a Christlike life.
So, if that's okay with youguys, I'm just going to read
this.
Of course, by striving to live aChrist-like life, we are ever

(59:09):
attempting to see the world fromhis perspective and trying to
do what he would do if he werein our shoes.
We are choosing to look pastworldly views, politics,
scientific theories and thelatest socially accepted norms
and trends, in an effort to seeall of the people in the world
as equals, our true brothers andsisters.
We are choosing to look pastpeople's flaws, facades,

(59:32):
opinions, false ideas and biasesso we can see each other's true
potential.
We are trying to see who peopleare meant to be, regardless of
who they are now.
We are choosing to look insideour own souls, take an honest
inventory of our spiritualstanding and commitment to God
and then take necessary steps tochange the parts that we know

(59:53):
need to be changed, even if wecan only take baby steps today.
As we strive to live aChrist-like life, we naturally
develop Christ-like attributes.
Those attributes include, butare not limited to, christ-like
attributes.
Those attributes include, butare not limited to, love,
compassion, kindness,selflessness, charity,
long-suffering, goodness, grace,hope and, of course,

(01:00:14):
forgiveness.
All of these attributes combineto bring us closer to God and
Christ, which ultimatelystrengthens our faith.
If there is someone out therewho has hurt you, I plead with
you to find it in your heart toforgive that person
unconditionally, especially ifthey don't deserve it and if you
have hurt someone, please tryto find a way to seek

(01:00:34):
forgiveness and mercy and torepent and make amends if
possible.
There is no greater feeling offreedom and joy in this world
than having heavy burdens liftedfrom your soul, and joy in this
world than having heavy burdenslifted from your soul.
If you need help removing theseburdens, remember that parents
and close friends are alwaysgood to lean on and can give you
great advice.
Bishops are also greatresources.

(01:00:56):
During my service as a bishop, Isaw so many people's lives
dramatically and fundamentallychange for the better through
repentance and forgiveness.
I know that your life canchange too.
Remember that God loves you nomatter what.
Remember, too, that Christ isthere to bridge the gap, no
matter how wide or deep thechasm may seem.
There is no divide.
He cannot and will not cross tosave you.

(01:01:25):
So I don't know.
I just feel like people need toknow how much God loves them in
their life, and and truly,repentance and forgiveness are
incredible gifts if we use them,and one of the reasons why I

(01:01:45):
wanted to have you guys on theshow particularly is because
I've seen you use them in yourlife and I appreciate the
lessons that you've taught methrough your experiences.
So thank you guys for beinghere and sharing again with us
today.

Alisha Coakley (01:02:06):
Yeah.

Scott Brandley (01:02:09):
Any last thoughts before we kind of wrap
up that you'd like to share.

Dave Higham (01:02:13):
I do, but if anyone wants to go first, that's fine.

No, you got it.

One of the things I found puzzling and a challenge
for me is very quick into myexcommunication, I felt forgiven
by the Lord and that was a realhead game for a while.
How was it that I felt forgivenforgiven when others were still

(01:02:45):
hurting, where I hadn't reallygone through any steps of
repentance yet, and the churchsaid I still had five years to
go till I could be consideredfor baptism?
And what I've come to believefrom my experiences, from my
studying of the Savior in thescriptures and all of this, is

(01:03:10):
that he is forgiving us veryquickly.
Even the example of the cross,I mean he wasn't dead yet and
they're ripping the garments,there hasn't gone dark yet,
there hasn't been the thunderand the lightning and the
shaking of the earth and allthey don't even know that he's
already saying Father, forgivethem Time and time again.
That's his example in thescriptures and my experience has

(01:03:32):
been that as well.
Now, that does not mean that Iat that time felt like I had no
need to change, that I had noneed to repent, that I had no
need to grow, that I could juststop at that point.
What I found was that, allowingmyself to feel his love and his
willingness to forgive mebecame the motivation to want to

(01:03:57):
understand him more andunderstand the Savior more and
to become more like the Savior.
Because of that, and so oftenlike as you were, bishop Scott
you've seen people who don'twant to forgive themselves.
They want to hang on to stuff,and I even believe that.

(01:04:17):
The story of Enos, I thinksometimes I suspect we could
read that another way, if we'renot already reading it the wrong
way.
Enos prays all day forforgiveness until the Lord
finally says look.
He says, receive remission ofyour sins, get on with life.
And how many times, a bishop,do you have somebody sitting in

(01:04:39):
the chair that you're like ifyou could just forgive yourself
and move forward.
But it's so hard for us to dothat, and it's my experience
that God and Christ forgive usvery quickly.
We turn to him and he'sforgiving us already.
Others may not forgive us yet,but if we can allow ourselves to

(01:05:00):
feel that and then use that asa motivation to fall more in
love with them and to have adesire to figure out why, how
can they do that so quickly?
How can they offer that kind oflove and forgiveness right off
the bat and then take that as amotivation to become more like
them, to figure it out and tomake the changes in our own

(01:05:22):
lives and to look for them inthe day-to-day, in the people
who bless us in the experienceswe have.
I believe that's really the waythat forgiveness and repentance
work in dealing with HeavenlyFather and Jesus Christ.
With others forgiveness oftencomes further down the path.

(01:05:44):
But god and christ repentance,it doesn't mean you're celestial
glory at that or celestialready.
You know the child that goesand steals a candy bar from the
store and then goes through allthose steps we learn in primary
and then takes the candy barback and says sorry and
everything else.
They can feel forgiven, butthat doesn't mean they're ready
for the celestial kingdom.
At that point they haven'tdeveloped any of these kinds of

(01:06:05):
christ-like attributes yet.
They've just gone through somemotions and hasn't necessarily
changed them inside.
But I do believe with Godforgiveness comes first to any
of us as soon as we turn to him,and then that can be turned to
motivation to change for areason.
That is probably the reason hereally wants us to change, you

(01:06:32):
know we just we just reviewed inSunday school or whatever.

We've reviewed sister Runia's talk from the
April conference.

Awesome talk.

Yeah, your repentance doesn't burden the
Lord, something like that.
But there's a part that Ihighlighted in that talk that
just like really stood out to meand and was just so beautifully
put.
I want to just read that for asecond.
But she says your worth isn'ttied to your obedience.
Your worth is constant, itnever changes.

(01:07:06):
It was given to you by God andthere's nothing you or anyone
else can do to your obedience.
Your worth is constant, itnever changes.
It was given to you by God andthere's nothing you or anyone
else can do to change it.
Obedience brings blessings,that's true, but worth isn't one
of them.
Your worth is always great inthe sight of God, no matter
where your decisions have takenyou, and I love that so much
because I think that kind ofgives us permission to give

(01:07:28):
ourselves mercy, whether we'retalking about repentance or
forgiveness.
Right, like we're not, we'renot worth any less because we
can't forgive someone, and we'renot worth any less because we
can't work through our own messytrash.
Through our own messy trash,right?
Heavenly Father wants us to beable to love ourselves.

(01:07:48):
He wants us to see how muchworth we have, but at the same
time, there really is nothingthat we can do other than be
obedient.
Right, being obedient is goingto bring us blessings, but it
doesn't change our worth, and Ilove that.

Kellen Winslow (01:08:03):
So much blessings, but it doesn't change
our worth, and I just I lovethat so much so I I want to
comment on this.
Um, you know, when I first tookthis job on um, I was exposed
to a lot of really difficultthings.
Um, you know, I have to hearthe details of every crime these

(01:08:24):
guys have committed.
I have to go through theirproperty, I have to view.
You know, I've I've seen thingsthat I can't unsee and I've
heard things that I can't unhear, and for the longest time it
was hard for me to separate thatfrom my own feelings of
worthiness, because I couldn'thelp but feel like I was being

(01:08:44):
affected by the things I wasseeing and the things I was
hearing.
And so I was able to talk to astake president about this
during a Temple Reckonmentinterview and I told him my
predicament.
I'm like, look, every day atwork I have to see things that
I'm not allowed to see.
Like how do I separate myselffrom this?
And he just kind of looked atme and he said you know, the

(01:09:06):
Bible doesn't hold anything back.
And I was like what do you mean?
He was like the Bible talksabout, and he just started
naming everything you knowgenocide and rape and incest and
all this kind of stuff.
And he's like so the Lordobviously was aware of all those
things happening.
And I was like, and even more.
And I was like, yeah, and he'slike, and he has a perfect joy.
And I said, yeah, and he's like, do you ever wonder how that is

(01:09:31):
?
And I asked, and he said it'sbecause he chooses to see the
potential in those peopleinstead of just the things that
they're doing.
And the things that you'reexposing, you're, you're being
exposed to are not, are notcreating your worth in his eyes
and they're not creating theirworth in his eyes.

(01:09:53):
A couple years go by.
I'm in the thick of this jobnow I have a client who comes to
me and he's having some reallydifficult times with this
concept of self-forgiveness.
Again, he doesn't feel worthyof it.
He tried to take his own abouta year before he committed all
of his offenses.
He was really struggling withhis thought processes and he
didn't like that.
He was thinking about doing thethings that he wanted to do and

(01:10:14):
he tried to take his own lifeand didn't, didn't work.
And then he goes on to offend.
And so he asked me he's likewhy did God keep me alive If he
knew that I was going to go onand commit these crimes, you
know.
And if he knew that I was goingto go on and commit these
crimes, you know and I don't Ididn't know what to tell him at
the time.
I don't remember what I toldhim at the time, but if I could
tell him something now, it wouldbe that that the Lord saw
beyond that and saw thepotential of who you could

(01:10:36):
become, and he decided that itwas worth it.
And I don't mean thatdisrespectful towards the people
he victimized.
But we are a process ofbecoming something and we can't
have this negative view ofourself to the point where we
cripple our own potential.

(01:10:58):
My clients don't feel likethey're worthy of forgiveness.
Well, guess what?
Nobody is.
If you were worthy ofrepentance, or if you were
worthy of forgiveness, youwouldn't need it.
That's the beautiful thing.
It's a gift.
It's given to you when youdon't even deserve it.
You're not worthy of it, and soquit letting your own negative

(01:11:19):
feelings dictate the way thatyou're allowing yourself to
progress and reach your ownpotential.
You know, I, I, uh.
Do you remember that book that,uh, you are special?
By Max?
Uh, I can't remember his name.
Um, you know, it's the, thewomen with the dots, the stars
and the and the circles and theythey fall off.
Well, I read that to my clients, um, and a lot of them had

(01:11:44):
tears in their eyes afterwardsand they were just looking at me
and I was looking at I mean,these guys are people who
committed murder and wererunning drugs on the border and
doing all kinds of stuff andlike they're gangbangers and all
this kind of stuff.
And they're crying in front ofme because I read them a
children's book and I was likewhat the heck?
And they all looked at me andthey're like this is the first
time someone's ever read me abook.
I never had a mom.
I never had a mom read me abook.

(01:12:07):
You know, and we just don'tunderstand who people are.
But we can see who they canbecome and if we can choose to
see them the way God sees them,which is the person that they
have the potential to become,and we see ourselves as the
person that we have thepotential to become, and we see
ourselves as the person that wehave the potential to become, we

(01:12:28):
will never stop making progressand we will never stop
forgiving and we'll never stoprepenting, because we understand
that that's the path that wemust take to get there.
So just thought I wouldconclude my thoughts on that.

That was amazing .

I agree.

Well, thanks, guys, for all your thoughts and
serious from the bottom of myheart.
I really appreciate you and Ithink people get a lot of value
out of this.
I mean a lot of these things wejust don't get.
We just don't go into detail, alot of you know, and even in
the gospel, even in church,because it's hard, these are

(01:13:13):
hard topics to talk about.

Kellen Winslow (01:13:16):
So I really appreciate you being willing to
share today, of course, it wasreally nice to meet you, dave.
Nice to meet you too Enjoytalking to you, so thanks for
having us back on.

Yeah, and thanks Scott for spending nine years
putting together this book andnow giving you know a free
download away to anybody whowants it.
You guys make sure, scott, tellthem all the things, because
you really I mean it's just thethoughts in there and it sparks
so many discussions and sparksso many ideas and so many aha
moments.
Um, and just the fact that youwere willing to put in that time

(01:13:55):
and effort and energy andcontinue to make it as easy as
possible for anybody to get, um,I just, I think we just have to
say kudos to Scott too.

And such a variety of things, looking at so many
different things from so manydifferent angles.

a lot of research there's definitely
something for everybody,regardless of where you're at in
your in your faith journey, youknow.
So go download the book forfree at faithtostaycom right.

Yeah, yeah, faithtostaycom, you can get the
free digital download for yourkindle or your ipad.
You can get the free audiostreaming audio download.
There's no opt-ins or anything.
You can just go get it thereand then, if you want the book,
you can go to amazon and get it.
Um, and any proceeds that thatI get from it will go to the

(01:14:46):
Markovia Project, which isanother one of our Latter-day
Light family.
That's a fun story too.
But yeah, thanks again, guysfor being on and thanks everyone
for tuning in to this specialepisode, and we will have
another one for you next week.
Until then, take care, bye-bye,thanks guys.

(01:15:06):
Take care, bye-bye, thanks guys.

Bye, bye.

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Repentance & Forgiveness with Dave Higham & Kellen Winslow (Faith to Stay Part 3 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights

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