Transforming a Secret Addiction into Radical Honesty: Heather & Cameron Berry's Story - Latter-Day Lights - LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Episode Transcript
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Scott Brandley (00:00):
Hey there as a Latter-day Lights listener, I
want to give you a very specialgift today my brand new book,
faith to Stay.
This book is filled withinspiring stories, powerful
discoveries and even freshinsights to help strengthen your
faith during the storms of life.
So if you're looking to beinspired, uplifted and

(00:21):
spiritually recharged, justvisit faithtostaycom.
Now let's get back to the show.
Hey everyone, I'm ScottBrandley.

Heather Berry (00:31):
And I'm Michael Slade.
Every member has a story toshare, one that will instill
faith, invite hope and inspireothers.

On today's episode we're going to learn how
coping with a 30-year addictionis helping one couple better
understand the power of theatonement and grow closer
together.
Welcome to Latter-day Lights.
Hey everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Latter-day

(01:04):
Lights.
We're so glad you're here withus today and we're really
excited to introduce our specialguests.
We have two of them todayCameron and Heather Berry.
Welcome to the show.

Micheal Slade (01:15):
Hi Scott, Thank you so much for having us.

Cameron Berry (01:17):
Yes, thank you.

You bet I also have a special co-host, a
previous guest to Latter-dayLights, Michael Slate.
Welcome.
Thanks for coming and hangingout with us, man.

Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for the invite.

Cool.
Well, this is going to be aninteresting episode.
We haven't had a lot of couplescome on the show, but when we
do it's usually a pretty goodexperience.
So why don't we just jump inand have you guys tell us a
little bit about yourselves?

My name is Cameron Berry.
Born in Houston, texas, grew upin Florida, served an LDS
mission in California OaklandMission and then went to
Virginia to go to school and metmy wife.

Oh, in Virginia.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was born and raised in California.
We did not meet while he was onhis mission.

No.

Different parts of the state.
But, yeah, I moved out aftersome work and school to Southern
Virginia University where hewas currently living and working
, and we quickly became reallygood friends and had a
foundation of friendship.
That was really important toboth of us.
And a little how long were we?

(02:37):
A year and a couple months.
We we didn't really date, wewere just such good friends and
both had separate confirmationsfrom the spirit that marriage
was a logical and meaningfulchoice for us moving forward and
things moved pretty quicklyonce we figured that out.

(02:58):
So we lived there for about adecade, had four of our children
in Virginia and then about adecade ago we moved to Utah and
had our fifth little caboosewhile we've been here.
So five kids ranging from 18 tofive and, yeah, living life.

Awesome, great, well, welcome.
We're glad you're here with us,know your um, your story spans
a long period of time and, uh,I'm interested to see how it,
how it's all gonna come out.
So why don't we turn the timeover to you guys and tell us

(03:39):
where your story begins?

okay, should we start with thanksgiving uh, yeah
, right after thanksgiving in2022, um, uh, I went to show my
wife a photo that I thought wasreally cute of my daughter
wearing uh the shoes, high heelsshe had pulled from my closet

(04:02):
when when I opened the photoreel I didn't see it, but there
was a pornographic photo inthere as well.
She did and uh, and then that,um, that uh.
That caught me, you know, cold,both of us, both of us and uh,
and though I I tried to play itoff pretty hard for about a day.
Um, it finally helped open meup.

(04:26):
It turned out to be the bestthing that ever happened to me,
period in my life.
It opened me up to be able toshare with my wife an addiction
that I'd had our entire marriageand also a good chunk of my
life before we were married.

Yeah, it was not something that I ever expected.
It's not so much that I thoughthe was immune to temptations.
No, you know, I've known it's aproblem for so many people, but
it was something that I didn'texpect to not know was a problem

(05:04):
because of our friendship.
Like you know, we mentionedearlier, we were such good
friends, best friends, and wetalked about things.
We weren't a couple that didn'ttalk.
We talked often about, you know, various subjects, deep
discussions.
We weren't people that avoidedhard conversations.

(05:27):
So what was so off putting forme was that this person that I
had trusted and believed wouldshare especially something like
that.
You know, in light of ourbelief system and and what we
hold hold dear as far as ourstandards and way that we want
to live, we agreed that thingslike this were not something

(05:49):
that we wanted to be part of ourmarriage or life.
So to think that he wouldn'tshare that with me was just
completely.
It's like you're driving downthe freeway 70 miles an hour and
you hit a brick wall.
Like you're driving down thefreeway 70 miles an hour and you

(06:10):
hit a brick wall.
And it was interesting becausehe it really was a difficult
thing and maybe you can talkabout that in a second where he
literally didn't know how totell me.
And so you know he had, he wasstruggling to share and he you
know finding reasons why.
You know that picture was thereand you know excuses really, and

(06:32):
up until the moment he told offlike that's how off putting it
was for me and I just believethat I would have, I would have
known about something like that,that wouldn't be something that

(06:52):
could be hidden, and so for methat moment felt like everything
turned upside down.
I didn't know what was real.
I questioned, I questioned ourrelationship altogether.
Was this actually a realrelationship?
Is what you told me true?
Who are you?

(07:13):
My mind was just reeling.
It was a very morning, so wehad church to go to that day and
it was one of the mostdifficult moments of my life, I

(07:33):
think.

Didn't know what to think or feel yeah, but what
was really amazing about thiswhole experience?
It's one of those things, likeyou go through something super
difficult, I don't know you runa marathon or you've had a bad

(08:07):
illness, or maybe you threw yourback out how much it helped you
to live better and to live justto know certain things much
deeper.
So, for instance, a couple ofdays after this all happened,
we're now talking a lot and kindof a little bit of my backstory
to kind of help understandmyself and kind of where I was
coming from.
And what I didn't even knowthat I was dealing with but I

(08:28):
had for my whole life is I hadgrown up in a home that was very
loving, but there was someturmoil, and I was the middle
kid who was the pleaser, the onewho was easy.
I was the easy kid, and so Ilearned at a very, very young
age to hide, and usually I wouldmask any kind of like, any

(08:48):
feelings and things that Ithought might be disruptive, and
so to me it was just secondnature, and there's a lot of
these things I think we operateon, we just don't realize.
And so then, when it came tosexuality and pornography, that
just became something I justwould hide.
And so what was reallyinteresting and amazing was, a

(09:10):
couple of days after this allhappened, we sat down.
I can still remember the.
It was an evening and we wereboth sitting on the couch, the
lights were kind of all off andwe were just talking in the dark
sort of, and I just I went froma switch that said, to keep
myself safe, I needed to hide to.
To keep myself safe, I neededto say everything.

(09:31):
And I said everything.
I kind of jokingly say it'slike you know, if you remember
the movie the Goonies, when whenChunk is sitting down with the
Fratellis and he's he's spillinghis guts and he's just saying
everything he doesn't have tosay.
Like I was basically that I wasjust, you know, crying and
saying just everything I couldthink of, and I went to a space
where I of extreme radicalhonesty and the what that did

(09:56):
emotionally to me was amazing.
I never, I don't think I'd everfelt that kind of freedom.
At the same time, I wasextremely uncomfortable.
It was things I did not want totalk about, but I said
everything and then I just kindof made it a thing that after
that, if I thought of somethingI didn't want to say, like, well
, I'm going to say it.

(10:17):
You know, and it really hashelped deepen our relationship
and it did it rapidly, very fast, helped deepen our relationship
and it did it rapidly, veryfast.

And it was.
It was interesting becausewhile we, while we did talk a
lot, and while we we were acouple that did communicate with
one another, there was stillbecause of the hiding on his
part.
And then, you know and I'lltalk a little bit more I
realized I had been hiding a lotas well.
Nothing, not not a serioustransgression or anything like

(10:47):
that, but just not being able tofully be myself.
Intimacy, intimacy, yeah, beingknown and being seen as you are
, regardless of the bumps andbruises, the, you know, the
warts that we all wish weren'tthere and and try to hide.
And so it was a very strangeexperience because there was so

(11:08):
much, you know, I felt theimmense pain of betrayal, I've
been lied to, but then there wasthis he was showing me who he
was and trusting me with thingsthat I knew that were extremely
uncomfortable and sensitive, andI just felt so very close to

(11:29):
him.
And so it was this likewhiplash type feeling, because I
would go in through thegrieving, you know, I would be
walking through the grocerystore and it would like the
thought would come that Cameronhad lied to me, he'd been
watching porn and lied to me for, you know, 18 years, almost two

(11:49):
decades, and and it would belike the first time I heard it
and I would be like trying tohold back tears and then we
would, we would talk and itwould be just such this, this
weird, like like I said whiplashof feeling super connected and
close but then grappling withgrief and pain from just trying

(12:11):
to make sense of how this allworked and what was actually
going on.
But it was like Cameron said,it was a very rapid growth
process and part of that, too,came from a decision that I made
in the very early few days.

(12:35):
I don't even know, timeline isso blurry for me.
I remember sitting on my bedand it just hit me like it
poured over me how many couplesthat I knew about personally or
knew through others who had asituation such as this and it
ended in divorce.
And you know, the person withthe addiction didn't get better

(12:58):
and the other person had troubleforgiving or continued to be
betrayed, had trouble forgivingor or continued to be betrayed
and and I just saw that like Ithought about that happening to
us and it just scared me becauseI didn't want to lose my
marriage.
This is my best friend, who Iwas really disappointed in and
was hurt, but I also loved, andI reached out to a friend of

(13:19):
mine who was also a coach, alife coach of sorts and she is
also a coach, a life coach ofsorts and she, she worked with
me and, and the process that weworked on is something called
belief breakthrough, and I wasable to to tap into a belief
system and structure inside ofmyself that was causing me pain

(13:41):
Because, in reality, cameron'sproblem didn't mean anything
about me.
This was his problem, this wassomething that he was dealing
with, and pornography happenedto be the mechanism he used to
soothe and to heal what he wastrying to heal.
And what that allowed me to dothat day was to get out of my

(14:02):
own way and to work towardshealing not healing not just our
marriage, but myself, becausethat's all I really had control
over.
And um, and I just rememberleaving that phone call with her
that day, feeling hopeful in away that I was going to do
everything in my power to besupportive and to help heal what

(14:27):
was going on, and not heal him,because that's not possible for
me to do, but heal myself,because I started to see areas
in my own life where I hadcontributed to the breakdown in
our marriage.
There were things that I haddone and ways I showed up that
made it a lot easier for him tofeel like he needed to hide this

(14:51):
for me.
Now I'm not taking ownership,because his choice was to lie
about it.
His choice was to withhold thatfor me, and I want to be really
clear.
That wasn't my fault, but Ialso was not, so I'll share it
in this way.
Anytime we did have aconversation about things like

(15:11):
this you know found out thatthat's somebody we knew had been
struggling with pornographyaddiction.
You know we'd have aconversation about it and it
wouldn't be.
I'd never approach him and saysomething like how are you doing
with that?
Like an open curiosity, how areyou handling that?
I know there's traps all around.

(15:32):
I mean, that's what it's for.
It's meant to get as manypeople in as possible.
I would approach it in sayingsomething like that's not your
problem, is it?
Or you don't struggle with that, do you?
And it was never an open-endedquestion where he could feel
comfortable at least, or morecomfortable.
It's probably never comfortableto come and say you know I'm

(15:53):
actually struggling or have beenstruggling.
I was in such a place, wherethat would have been an
intolerable answer for me.
And part of that came fromunintended messages.
Growing up, you know, Iremember sitting in young
women's at church and thewarnings you know, make sure

(16:14):
you're careful about that andthey're well-meaning warnings.
But the message was if youmarry somebody with a
pornography addiction, that'lldestroy your marriage.
You know, so I like, if Imarried somebody with a
pornography addiction, that'lldestroy your marriage.
You know so I like.
If I married somebody with apornography addiction, then I
would.
It would destroy my marriage.
So I couldn't have that answer.
It was just like it wasn'tsomething I could tolerate.

(16:34):
And so you know Cameron talksabout how how this moment was a
gift.
It's difficult as it was, butfor me it was also a gift
because it caused me to confrontinside of myself things that
were broken and things thatweren't allowing the atonement
to really be applicable in mylife, where I was closing out

(16:58):
this opportunity to learn andgrow and go through difficult
things because of what it meantabout me.
I wasn't safe.
So I got to learn a lot aboutmyself and what drives me safety
, learning that a lot of thingsare a checklist to do right get
married in the temple, havechildren, do all these things

(17:21):
and I was focusing so much onkeeping safe and transactional
but I didn't know how toactually deal with life and the
bumps that come along andembrace the gift of the
atonement fully.

Yeah, and I think that's really beautiful.
We had this strange thinghappening where I did go to ARP
and we did go to a therapist,but the therapist struggled to
find things like we were.
We were running ahead of wherehe thought normally we would be
in this process and I think, asyou can tell by what, what, how

(18:00):
Heather's talking what really,what really just skyrocketed our
healing so fast was that weboth went to a space of not just
truthfulness but ofresponsibility.
Like one of the first things Ieven told Heather was like there
was no way this is any of yourfault, like things were not
always perfect and like therewere times that, like you know,

(18:22):
our intimacy was not as strongas we wanted it to be, but that
was never a good reason for myactions.
I think by both of us takingthe strong stance of
responsibility for where wecould work on this and where we
influence things to not be wherethey were, it just so rapidly,

(18:42):
like a rocket ship, just broughtus to much higher levels that I
still feel like.
I felt like our marriage was agood, solid eight or nine before
and then we just kept hittingthat level of 10 or 11 and keep
going higher and it keepsbreaking that barrier, now even.

We were living far beneath the privilege of
marriage, of marriage,especially eternal, celestial
marriage.
And, and you know, through thiswhole process it's become
really clear to me that you knowwe have a lot of preparatory
work that we do before we getmarried, especially in the
temple for time and eternity andlike, and a lot of it is guided

(19:21):
, you know, for us as we gothrough primary and Sunday
school and through church andjust all of those things and as
we go, even go through thetemple.
But marriage is, like thishigher level education, really
been significant.

(19:42):
Is that the reason why God gaveus marriage, I think, is to
help us heal.
There's nothing quite likesomebody else that you share a
life with and if you choose intoreal intimacy to really let
that other person inside and tosee you and to move towards
something eternal and greater,you are going to be confronted

(20:05):
with the worst inside ofyourself.
And then what do you do withthat?
And for me, this really gave mean opportunity to see quite
clearly all the ugly andunhealed and broken parts inside
of me and without it I just.
You know people have all thesereasons why marriage isn't

(20:25):
important today, why it's notnecessary.
It's just a piece of paper.
You know, commitment iscommitment, but I just it's just
been such a testimony, buildingexperience to me of the power
of marriage and what it does forus as individuals it's not just
this checkbox to be able toenter into the kingdom of heaven

(20:47):
one day.
It's something that you are,that you need to cultivate and
build now, otherwise you will beseverely lacking once we get to
be with God again, and it'ssuch a gift and privilege to
have that opportunity here onthis earth to grow.

That's some serious introspection on your
side.
You wouldn't think that whensomebody would come out and your
partner would come out and saythey've had this addiction, for
you to actually have thatintrospection on your side.
What am I doing that I could bedoing better Almost because of

(21:25):
that situation.
It's really interesting.

That's a tricky balance right, Because, like
she's been careful to say andwe're always careful to share my
actions were not her fault.
What I did was what I wasn'tresponsible for, and we've done
a lot of like mindset work andstuff like that before, and that
was also very helpful and anice foundation for this whole
process, because we couldimmediately go back to some of

(21:55):
these teachings we've learned,and that really is one of the
core things you really need tomost of us have a struggle with.
It's like when you ask yourkids to like clean up the room,
they're going to turn over totheir other brother and sister
and start bossing them to startfirst.
Like, why?
Like, like they, they have twohands and they're ready to go.
We can deal with them, you know.
But but that's that's it's.

(22:15):
It's just a human conditionwe're we're very conditioned in
this manner to to wonder howsome to try to fix somebody else
, to fix us, and how some to tryto fix somebody else to fix us.
And, um, by just having thatcore mindset that we're, we're
the one that's the agent ofchange in our life when
something like this came up, itwas nice to be able to fall back
and not realize okay, where do,where, where can I stand on

(22:37):
this?
Where can I make somethingbetter and influence my future?

and something and that is more beneficial and it
wasn't necessarily a very neatand tidy process.
You know, we're talking aboutit now two and a half years past
the moment and and I had plentyof moments where I wanted to
fix him and I was going to fixthe problem, and you know, and
that looked a lot like okay, youknow what programs can we put

(23:01):
on your phone?
And just like accountability helike for a for a long period
you, you put like we whatprograms can we put on your
phone?
and just like accountability helike for a for a long period,
you you put like we, we sleptwith his phone underneath my
side of the mattress so if wehad to go get it at night, like
and I think that was even youridea, but it was things like
that, things, things that werelike to control the situation,
that helped me feel morecomfortable.

(23:21):
But you know, the the the morework we did and the longer that
we comfortable.
But you know, the more work wedid and the longer that we, you
know, really dug into theprinciples of truth, not just
these things that we try to doto feel better.
You know he, the safety, camefrom within me, not anything he

(23:43):
could do, because the reality is, you know he had already
figured out a way and we weren'ta couple that he didn't travel
a lot, I didn't travel tons.
You know we were together mostevenings we slept in the same
room like the opportunity.
I didn't think there was muchspace for opportunity.
And so reality is, if he wantsto hide something or do
something, he's going to figurethat out.

(24:03):
There's nothing I can do,there's nothing that you know,
any any rule I could put inplace that was going to protect
him and me from this happeningagain, and it was.
It was really.
Can I, can I become the kind ofperson that can tolerate
disappointment, setbacks,frustration, hurt, and still
show up in the way that I, thatI can live in integrity with

(24:26):
myself?
And and you know I'm still onthat journey?
I have weak moments where youknow it's interesting what
happens with fear and anger andwhy they're tools of the devil,
because the moment those, thosefeelings are there, my ability
to, to, to ability to see andexpand the space between

(24:50):
stimulus and response goes away.
It's like it shortensdrastically when fear or anger
are there.
But when I have peace, when Ican bring the spirit into my
life and I am settled on thefoundation of Christ and the
atonement, um, that spacebetween stimulus and response
gets wider and I get to choosehow I want to show up in those

(25:11):
moments.
And so anger and fear are justnothing good ever comes from,
those being the triggers, um,where we we try and solve a
problem.
And you know I've been throughthat.
I've had moments where I wasjust so angry and shaking like,
so mad about everything, butthankfully I had a foundation of

(25:34):
understanding those principles.
So when that moment passed, Icould reclaim my peace again and
I could step back on solidfoundation.
Peace again and I could stepback on solid foundation.
But fear and anger are somepowerful tools of the devil,
yeah.

Yeah, and so are shame yeah.

What about communication?
How has communication been apart of this process?

in the morning and I could not go to sleep like
3am and I like I lost myappetite and it was just like it
was such an extreme, like justshock to my system.
And so I tried not to wake himup because, you know, I knew he
had, he had to go to work andbut he decided to get up with me
when he noticed that I wasawake and and we would just sit
and talk for hours.

(26:41):
I mean, sometimes like we wouldbe talking for like hours and
hours before you even went towork, and then at the evening we
would, we would talk again, andit was, I mean, I'm quite sure
that wasn't your favorite thingin the world to do, but I had
questions and I needed to makesense of what I thought I
understood and what was real.
And so the communication, Ithink, was like, like Cameron

(27:06):
was saying earlier, his choiceinto radical honesty, and I
played the game too.
You know, I realized that I had, like I would like, like I said
before, it wasn't anything likemajor that I needed to disclose
, that was something wrong I haddone.
It was more like, well, that'san embarrassing memory.
I, I just don't need to everbring that up Right, like we all

(27:28):
have those moments in life.
And you know he was playing thatgame of I don't we called it, I
don't want to tell you, but Ibut I will, and so I would do
the same and it became somethingthat that we both I think, I
think it was helpful and you canspeak to that for yourself, but
that he wasn't going through italone.

(27:48):
He wasn't going through all theawkward because it had been
decades of lies, it wasn't allat once.
You know, you just don'tremember things and something
would come up and you'd be likeI think I should say that, and
so we just we just created spacefor that.
And it wasn't always perfectand sometimes I got hurt and

(28:10):
sometimes I got angry, but thenwe were able to regroup and he
was very patient through all ofthat and never threw it back in
my face.
He was very understanding and Ireally appreciated that.
Yeah, not, not, not all couplesdeal with that.
A lot of times, you know, I'vedealt, I've delved into the uh,

(28:35):
marriage and family dynamicswith, with this type of uh,
disclosure and deception andwhatnot, and oftentimes there's
defensiveness that comes up forthe person that's, that's lied,
because it's hard, it'sdifficult and they want to.
You know I'm not all bad andyou know, and gosh, I went
through moments where Iquestioned are you all bad?
And that that has to be so hard.
I understand the defensivenessthat can come up, but he never
did that.
He just allowed me to processand to ask questions and that

(28:58):
was exceptionally helpful for me.

Yeah.

I think that really, really, really grappling
with what shame is and how it'soperated in our life was one of
the big aspects of this wholething Is that shame thrives in
private and in the dark.
Uh, that's, that was a bigmotivating factor for me not to

(29:24):
talk, and so being so open andbeing so, uh, honest, just so
brutally honest, was was a wayof just kind of just shattering
that whole shame bubble and her,you know, holding space for
that, which was not always easy,um, was really, was really
crucial.
So it was.
It was just an amazing, amazingcombination that, like I said,

(29:46):
even though that moment, thatday, you know, with that photo
was could be seen as like ahorrible day of my life and it's
not something I want to relive,that's for sure it was
definitely the most amazing dayof my life because since then,
it's just the amount of freedomI feel.
There was strange like knock-oneffects too, like I can now fall
asleep in like a minute flat,and I didn't even think about

(30:09):
that.
There was subtle anxiety I'vebeen carrying forever, to the
point that I didn't understandthat I was carrying it, I didn't
think about it, it was justthere, and so then have that
just be gone so quickly.
I could now just sleep.
I can just lay down, close myeyes and I'm done.
Anyways, yeah, it's beenamazing and difficult.

(30:36):
Sometimes the path still feelsdifficult, but, um, I can see
now how I can truly.
I can truly testify ofatonement when they say your
skins be your sins, be asscarlet, but they can be as
white as snow.
That feels like a platitudeuntil you really experienced

(30:56):
just coming to grips with the,the scarlet in your life, and
and, and working at it, and andactually letting, uh, letting it
all out in a way that therereally is nothing left.
Um, I do feel like they are aswhite as snow.

Um well for me, uh, I I had.
Um well for me, uh, I I had,for whatever reason, no one ever
taught me to be this way, but II've heard others, you know, I,
I know I'm not alone Um, I wasvery much, because I was born
and raised in the gospel Um,there was this it's like I, if I
have the answer, if I knowwhat's right, then there's

(31:37):
really not a whole lot of excusefor me to do what's wrong.
And so so I think I held myselfto a standard that is a little
unrealistic but also wasn'treally healthy for me, because
if it was almost like I neededto earn God's love and so I
didn't quite understand how tothat he could meet me Like, I

(31:59):
logically knew that theatonement was for me, was for
everybody, but it was like butyou know better, so you've got
to really get your act togetherto be perfect before God's like
going to be okay with you really.
And we tell ourselves thesestories and we're not even
necessarily conscious of them.
You know cause?
I knew what was true, but I wasliving as if, you know, I have

(32:21):
to earn God's love and beperfect before I can have it,
and that was true, and so Ireally struggled in the very
beginning.
One of the one of the people Iwas angry at was God.
I felt like I had, you know,I'd done the right things, the
checkboxes right, I had done allthe things I was supposed to do

(32:43):
to be a righteous person and todo my best, even though I
wasn't perfect.
And I'm, like I understandCameron, you know, in a human
weakness.
He couldn't tell me.
I could wrap my mind around howscary that must have been and
you know, and he was, you know,his whole time.
He was trying to fix it byhimself and it wasn't ever going

(33:04):
to work.
But I could understand that.
But from my perspective, I'mlike you know, god, you knew I'm
sitting here thinking I'mmarried to somebody that's
honoring the promises that we'vemade and the understanding that
we have and the covenants withGod.
And you could have told me, youcould have shown me so much
earlier.
I mean that I do believe thatGod put that picture, or allowed

(33:27):
that picture to be there thatday because it was time.
But I'm like, if you could doit, then why didn't you do it
before?
Why?
Why did I have to wait 18 years?
And I felt embarrassed.
It felt so like I just feltlike a fool, you know like, and
God was part of that, and but atthe same time, I knew I needed
God, I needed, I knew I neededhis peace and his comfort, and

(33:48):
so I'm praying for that.
But I'm angry at the same time,and it was really a difficult
space of time for me where I hadI really struggled to feel the
spirit.
I would have it in spurts.
Um, I remember specifically onetime, uh, where I was having it
was a rough morning Um, we, Ihad dropped Cameron off at work

(34:09):
and and I was traveling over tomy office, uh, for that day and
and I was, I think I was, Idon't think I was praying, but
all of a sudden I just felt anintense like, like I knew that
my grandmother, who had passedaway when I was in fifth grade,
was in the car with me and Ididn't know how to explain it,

(34:31):
but I actually like said are youthere?
Like I said it out loud, I'mlike are you, are you there?
And I just knew it.
I knew she was there and I knewthat she was there to just
comfort me and tell me that sheloved me, because I felt really
betrayed and left alone.
And then Cameron was having, atthe same time, these profound

(34:53):
spiritual experiences offorgiveness and the atonement
working in his life and hisfreedom, and he felt so good.
And here I was like who hadn'tdone anything wrong, you know,
hadn't done something like that,and I was struggling to feel
the spirit and struggling tofeel okay.

(35:13):
And and now, in hindsight, Ilook back and I'm like God loved
me so much that he sent her.
He sent my grandma because Icould accept that, and she was
there for just a little bit.
I didn't hear any words, I justfelt her there and I knew she
was there and I knew, she knew,she knew and she loved me and I
was being supported that day andI I struggled for a good while,

(35:38):
um, but it was interesting.
I teach primary and I wasn'texpecting it this day, but we
were finishing a lesson and, uh,I was going to ask the children
what song they loved and theywanted to sing and I was going
to find it on my iPad and do themusic.
And the children asked for, um,the song risen by Shawna

(36:03):
Edwards, but there was a pointin it where and I don't know I
still don't fully understand why, but this is what like just
kickstarted me back into feelingGod's love for me directly from
him.
And it's a quote in there.
It says to bind up every brokenheart, to conquer death and sin
, and it's just, it's.

(36:25):
The whole song is about theSavior in his life and for some
reason I realized like thatatonement that healed my husband
was also the atonement to bindup my broken heart and it didn't
separate him from me and I'mtrying to put words to feelings
that I don't know if I haveexactly, but it didn't separate

(36:50):
me from him, but it bound ustogether through Christ's love
for us that he came to conquerum sin and our broken hearts,
and and I just felt his, hislove wash over me and I felt the
savior and I still I will putthat song on now anytime I just
want to feel close and itimmediately comes back, um, and

(37:14):
I would sometimes just listen toit on repeat because it was a
sure way to feel God's love forme and um, I know that that he
loves us and that he is umdesperately trying to reach us
and to help us.
Um, there's a an image of thelamb uh, it's a painting and

(37:35):
then there's Christ in thebackground and he's not in focus
but he's like running towardsthat lost sheep, and I heard in
a recent class that I was in youknow the meaning that this had
for somebody about this personhas somebody who's dealing with
addiction and fear, you know,for that person in their life

(37:56):
that's lost and hurting and thatthey can let go, because so
many of the times we have peoplein our lives that we try to
save and we can't.
It can never be us and thatit's okay to let go because
Christ has them.
I'm also being charged for justlike that, just as the person

(38:31):
who's struggling with sin in mypain I'm being charged for too.
I'm being rescued because thereis a big part of me that's like
how do I protect myself fromgetting hurt again?
I really, you know I wrestledwith that, you know that that
made me want to control mysituation.
But this, this reminder that Idon't have to worry about

(38:53):
protecting me I mean I get to besmart and make wise decisions
and pray and ask for personalrevelation to have you to,
because we do, we do haveresponsibility for ourselves,
but I I'm talking about the kindof like, how do I make sure
Cameron doesn't hurt me againand I can't, I can never do that
, um, but I know that thatChrist is racing for him and

(39:13):
Christ is racing for me and Ithink that was so meaningful for
me.
That's, you know, I, I and I.
I think I had that faith withCameron before that that Christ
cared and was going after him,but I'm like he's also fiercely
coming for me and so, even ifsomething happens that hurts
again, he's there and he'scoming for me and I'm not alone
and he's there to save and helpme and to support me and love me

(39:35):
and carry me through, and carryme through, and those are just,
yeah, this has been a powerfulexperience in understanding the
atonement in very different waysthan I had ever had to
understand it before.

Cameron, your thoughts on the atonement.
Yeah, yeah, I mean yourthoughts on the atonement.

Yeah, yeah, Heather mentioned I had some
pretty cool spiritualexperiences.
I'll just mention one, probablythe most powerful one that I
had.
And, yeah, so I actually havethis reminder on my phone that I

(40:20):
have had on my phone for manyyears actually to remind me to
have like a good prayer and talkwith Heavenly Father.
And I even on the reminder,said, you know, I wanted to make
sure I pray for courage and for, you know, the ability to do
things I need to do.
And it's interesting now that Ilook back at old journal

(40:40):
entries and things like that, Ican see how I was constantly
reaching out um to to grapplewith this problem and that I
really wanted to be done.
I did feel I never feltabandoned by God.
I didn't have that experience.
I just wasn't.
That just wasn't my experience.
I did feel like, um, I wasconfused.
I felt like I didn't understandthe reason for the trial.

(41:03):
I didn't understand the reasonfor how things were shaking out
and I felt, maybe, if any, if,if, if I was broken, it was
definitely.
I felt that it was my fault.
So then it was like, well, whatdo I do now, you know?
And so I?
I felt very stuck, but, um, soI had this reminder, and I every
day, but I saw the reminder IfI hadn't prayed already, I would
stop whatever I was doing and Iwould start to pray, and it was

(41:26):
very standard and it was,dearly father, and thank you for
this and please forgive me forthat and this one morning, a few
days after this, all Withinthat first week.
It was the first week.
Yeah, it was in the first week.
It was the first week.
Yeah, it was in the first week.
I was at work and the remindercame up and so I was just like
okay, it kind of stopped what Iwas doing, started to say the

(41:47):
prayer and as soon as I saidplease forgive me I did not have
time to say anything else Ifelt an amazing warmth and rush
of feeling that like seized me.
Warmth and rush of feeling thatlike seized me.
I remember my mouth gaping openbecause I didn't, for a first

(42:09):
few seconds I didn't understandwhat was happening.
And then, when I had therealization of like, because I
didn't even get to finish thesentence, I said please forgive
me, that's all I said.
And normally you know that was,that was dot dot, dot.
That was mid sentence said, andnormally you know that was dot
dot, dot.
That was mid-sentence.
And I remember, just when Ifinally realized that I was
feeling a feeling of what Ibelieve was forgiveness, like I

(42:33):
just was extremely overwhelmed.
And then I also had I doremember having a thought soon
after that like what I don'tknow if I can tell Heather this
because like she's still in thispart of like me, like saying,
like telling her all these stuffthat I'm doing, and like trying
to be all honest and oh, it'sokay, heather, I'm forgiven.
God told me you can.

(42:54):
Just, it's all good now.
So I had that moment of like,well, I am telling truth, so I'm
going to tell her this, but atthe same time, how do I tell her
in a way that doesn't feel likeI'm obligating her to just not
be mad or not not continue withyou know any of her feelings and
deal with those things incertain ways?
So, anyways, it was just a very, it was a funny, it was a funny
moment in that experience.

(43:15):
It was complicated, complicatedhappiness is what we sometimes
call that and anyways, it wasamazing.
And still to this day, when Italk about it, I can still feel
it.
I feel it now.
I feel that feeling again.
And, yeah, it was at thatmoment that I started really
contemplating how much I don'tthink I really understood the

(43:36):
atonement.
I understood it cerebrally, Iunderstood it maybe in smaller
ways, but to actually get tograpple with it in such a
powerful way really gave me atestimony that you really can be
completely healed.
I have not relapsed in those twoand a half years since she saw

(43:58):
that photo, and my feelings onthe matter are different.
It's not that there's pushesand pulls that aren't still
there.
They're still there.
You've created neural pathwaysthat could easily be traveled
again, but the feeling ofhealing was so absolute and so

(44:20):
quick, and Heather and I havetalked a lot about this.
I struggled with thinking howam I going to share this with
people who have differentexperiences?
Sometimes it takes them 10years, sometimes they're just
still struggling with it andthey've been open and honest
forever.
Is there possibilities of stillrelapse?
Yes, but I don't feel thatthat's my path.

(44:41):
But I also don't want to benaive in thinking that things
like that just simply can neverhappen again.

It doesn't mean you drop the safeguards and the
personal commitments Right.

Safeguards and personal commitments.
I keep them in place.
And also Heather and I andespecially lately we talk a lot
about this of just how we didn'trealize how we weren't acting
very agentically in our life.
I was trying to not hurt her,but really what I was doing was

(45:14):
just trying to hide and not hurtmyself.
That was really the actualreason why I wasn't doing that
and her reason to be safe wasn'tto help our family, it was more
actually to protect herself andlike just just grappling with
those like hidden, hidden thingsthat we were doing and actually
understanding that we we haveabilities to make choices.

(45:37):
I certainly have no desire fordivorce she's expressed that
same thing but to say that thatwas off the books, we understand
that that's not justeverybody's path and that's okay
, and just recognizing thatthings are just different for
everyone and how it shows up.
But I can just say theatonement is just so much more a

(46:04):
living example in my life,something that is so much more
powerful than I realizedSometimes.
I think we're in the countryclub rather than in the hospital
, being that the church reallyis the hospital.

(46:25):
We're either the patient orwe're the doctor helping, you
know, but we really shouldn't bein the country club where we're
there because we think we'repaying a due and we were owed
some things and we've we'retrying to keep up appearances to
the people around us who alsoare the Joneses.
You know, doing this and that Ithink I didn't realize how much
of the country club I had been.

(46:45):
I didn't think I was and yeah,it was amazing to just be able
to move through that into a newspace.

Michael, do you have any thoughts on this?

No, no, I'm just really impressed on the
experience and um justgratefully, the opportunity to
share this with you or to beshared with me yeah, it takes a
lot of courage to get on andshare this experience.

What, what was that?
How did you feel when youdecided to do that, to share it
publicly?

oh, well, it was interesting early on, um, when
we realized that we were healingand and not just like we
weren't just struggling andupset and muddling through, like
we were actually feeling, likelike we had leveled up and were,
even though there were somereally hard times and we just

(47:44):
felt like like we were figuringsomething out that we couldn't
quite put a finger on just yet,but that if we, if we could
figure this out, then there wassomething we could share with
others, because you know it'sjust, because you know it's just
, it's too rampant in our worldtoday.
This is, you know, cameron felthe knew that there were

(48:07):
problems, but it's very lonely.
You feel like you're the onlyone that's dealing with this.
You know you sit in church onSunday and it's like, yeah, I'm
the one that's, you know, thegross person or whatever name.
I don't want to put labels onit, but you know you said
yourself that you had like I'm amonster and you know, and as we
counseled with our bishop andtalked about it, like this is a

(48:30):
huge, huge problem in the faith.
I think it's not just our faithbut any religious community
where you have these morals andstandards and then you throw in
something like pornographythat's meant to entice and
entrap you.
It is meant to be temptingbecause of how God created us to

(48:54):
be, sexuality is a good thing,and Satan just uses these pulls
to get us to act outside of ourintegrity.
And so, and then you throwshame in because now I've sinned
, now I've done something wrong,now I'm not worthy.
And the messaging you know thatthat Satan twists like these
truths, that he just twists sothat you feel trapped and you

(49:15):
feel bad and you feel like youknow you're, you're the scum of
the earth.
It's just a rampant problem,you know, especially for our
young people.
And so when we realized thatthere was hope and that there
was healing and that peopledidn't have to suffer and hurt
and live with this and justtolerate subpar or staying in an

(49:38):
addiction or staying miserableand unhappy because you've been
hurt Like we, just how can weshare this?
How can we?
How can we help others withthis?
And I remember I think we werejust laying in bed one day.
I'm like, I think I said it outloud, I'm like we should write
a book Like this is somethingthat we need to share.
But we didn't know what itlooked like yet.
And then you had an experiencein Arizona, where you were

(50:03):
sharing it publicly for thefirst time.

Oh yeah, like, like, like, just know about me.
This is not me.
I'm like, again being a hider.
I'm also kind of aloof person.
I I'm I'm perfectly warm andkind person to talk to and a
good friend, but I'm not veryoutgoing, I'm introverted and
and this, this, uh, talkingabout this, especially at first,
was, was extremelyuncomfortable and difficult

(50:27):
because my, the, the core of me,was so used to just like you
didn't see that I had a maskthat you just didn't didn't see.
And so, um, yeah, we were, wewere at a little conference that
we have that we did that, wedid with the mindset stuff we
were doing and I decided to likethere, just tell a group of
people and these were all peoplewho were, some knew me pretty

(50:50):
well, some didn't, but anyways,I explained our situation and I
also explained the joy and thefreedom, that of having been
able to be this free and and anddoing that was very helpful to
help kind of break that, breakthat mold and help me recognize

(51:10):
because, especially, likeHeather said, like it's just so
rampant, like, like it feelslike there's very few people, if
any, that aren't touched by itin some way, like there's very
few people, if any that aren'ttouched by it in some way, and
we weren't seeing a lot ofstories exactly like ours, and I
think, even if your situationis different, there were a lot
of things that we could helpwith and at least even if it's

(51:31):
just hearing our story mighthelp inspire you to be something
different or to pick adifferent path, or to try to
pick up where you are right nowand do something different.

I wanted to be a part of that and I could feel
that so, yeah, what, what, whatadvice would you give to a
couple that maybe went was atthat stage where you were at two
and a half years ago, just, youknow, finding this out and just
trying to get through thatbeginning Difficult, yeah,

(52:04):
disclosure, what.
What advice would you give acouple that's going through that
?

I would say, um, I would say that the first thing
I would hope they could feel,at least, is that life can begin
right now.
I think there's so many timesin our life that you can look
back and see this.
If you have children, you knowthat it feels like you just

(52:31):
never lived your life withoutchildren.
You couldn't imagine thesespirits and these personalities
not to be in your life anymore.
So it feels like life startedback then.
So a lot of times I think backto it feels like my life started
at marriage, right, like Ican't imagine not being with her
.
I can feel now again that samefeeling of things starting again

(52:51):
.
You really can pick up exactlywhere you are now.
I don't care how far down, howdifficult you're feeling things.
You can have a new life now.

I've heard it described.
You know, when you find outsomething like this or there's
deception on some level, thatmarriage is over and it doesn't
mean divorce.
It just means that thatmarriage that you thought you
had, that you were buildingbased on the understanding that
you had, is gone, and it is goneforever.
So you can walk away or you canbuild a new one.

And it takes a reframing to understand, like
you said, that the marriage isgone.
But it's something differentand new.
It's metamorphosized into thebutterfly that was a caterpillar
before.

I think, a piece of advice.
It's so easy to go into regretwhat if?
What if it just didn't happenthis way?
What if Cameron had just toldme when we were engaged and I
knew the whole time, like then,then I could at least not have
been lied to.
And you know, and we want to goback to, like the what ifs and
there's no what if that willever, that will ever make those
things come true.
You know what is.

(53:55):
And coming to terms with thatand looking forward with hope
and looking to create something,looking for it, looking at the
opposition as an opportunity andnot something that you know is
hurting you, something for anopportunity to grow and become
better and to become morerefined I think that would be.

(54:16):
My advice is to try and lookforward with hope and to not try
and look to the past.
But what can you build now?
And I think, too, being a safespace as best you can.
It isn't easy, and I wasn'talways a safe space.
I had my moments, but I triedreally hard to understand, to

(54:38):
ask questions, to understand, soI could I could, um have more
empathy for where he was comingfrom.
And then, and then, lookinginward, where have I contributed
to dysfunction in our marriage?
Where have I?
Um played a part in what'sgoing on right now?
And how am I playing a part in,in, in my?
Am I helping with his recoveryand healing or am I, am I

(55:02):
tearing it apart because I don'tknow how to manage myself?
Um, and so you know, I, I it isone of the hardest things in the
world to to to know thatsomebody you love and trusted,
and like I, literally, you knowthis was in the very beginning.
I said, you know, if somebodyhad pointed a gun at my head and
said, is your husband doingthis?

(55:23):
I would have you know if, ifyou're wrong, I'm like I would
have felt super confident saying, nope, that's not a problem for
us.
And I know that, um, and it'slike I said before, it's
whiplash and it's hard, and Idon't mean to simplify it in any
way whatsoever.
But to vilify the person thatyou care about, if you want it

(55:48):
to work, if you want yourmarriage to be healed, if you
don't want to give up, to turnthe other person into a villain
and wait for them to makeeverything right again, is not a
good way to proceed.
To focus on your own healingand how you can become a more
supportive, loving partner, towalk with somebody through a
very hard thing and do your bestto not make this be about you.

(56:10):
Because it isn't, it never is.
I could have been.
You know women go through allthe emotions of you know, if I
were prettier, if I wereskinnier, if I were younger,
whatever it is, you know hecould be married to that person.
You know that you think if youwere, and it would still be a
problem, because it's not aboutyou, it's about them trying to

(56:32):
fix something that's wronginside of themselves.
And so to do your best toidentify the meaning you're
putting on someone else's actionwhat does it mean about you and
to figure out, like to reallystudy that and to put light on
it, to shed light on that sothat you can remember what's
actually true, because these arejust lies that we tell

(56:54):
ourselves.

And I think kind of like just a summary, like I
think, now that I'm thinkingabout it, the two things I would
really really tell somebodywho's just beginning this
process and struggling is to doyour best to remove shame and
second, take full responsibility, personal responsibility, and
we called it the principle ofirregardless Like again, if I

(57:19):
took that, I decided to takethat challenge, I decided it
myself to say if I feltsomething, if I remembered
something that was difficult,that I didn't want to say, I was
going to say it.
But that was because I decidedto take that responsibility.
And I also said I could not inmy mind, I could not wait until
she was safe, like there's couthright, like you don't, you
don't you, there is a, there isproper space that you need to do

(57:41):
.
But but at the same time,whether or not she was okay with
it, like I had to, I had totake that stand and just say no,
she deserves the truth, all ofit.
Well, and you deserve healingtoo, not to be hung up because I
can't tolerate the truth, notto be hung up because I can't
tolerate the truth, and sotaking that, the taking away the
shame, and and and reallyworking with, with full

(58:01):
responsibility, not trying tocontrol somebody else or to
manipulate them to, to, to makesure that you felt safe.
It really was important takingthose two things into account,
okay, wow.

Thank you.

This has been incredible.
There's so much wisdom, so muchinsight, inspiration that I've
just felt from you guys andhearing your experience.
I did not see this coming fromwhat I thought we were going to
get on the podcast.
It's incredible.

(58:38):
I mean, it is incredible thatyou've been able to learn these
lessons through such a difficulttrial, and it's truly inspiring
.
Thank you for being willing toshare it.
I honestly feel like this isgoing to help a lot of people.

Yeah.

And it almost feels like this is the beginning
of your journey.
Like you, this is something youcould.
You could continue to do tohelp people in the future as
well.

I hope so.
Yes, that's our hope.
We uh oh gosh, it's been two,almost two years ago no, not
quite, but we Gosh, it's beenalmost two years ago no, not
quite.
But we started a podcast wherewe shared our story and
literally it's just us in thecar because we've got a busy
life and we were both the daysthat I would travel over and
commute with him to work.

(59:29):
We would just record our storyand talk about these principles
in the car.
So we've started, yeah, butyou're right, principles in the
car.
So we've we've started yet, butI, you're right, Like this
really is the beginning ofsomething, um, that we I don't
think we even understand what itis yet, but but there's a world
of people hurting and feelingreally alone and stuck and, um,

(59:50):
and if we can help them feelless alone and and share the
principles that helped us findhealing, I know that marriages
can be saved and families can bepreserved and the whole purpose
.
I mean this.
This really is a gift, Likelife is a gift.
It's not, I think.
So much of the time we thinkthat if I just live righteously

(01:00:11):
enough, then bad things won'thappen and that's success, and
it's like, no, we're here tolearn.
We're here to learn and grow,and that includes the trials and
hardships that, like sometimes,we just don't want to have to
accept or deal with.
I know I personally havestruggled with that.
Can I just be righteous enoughto have certain things not
happen?
But if we can turn those thingsaround and and make them, it

(01:00:35):
will be so much more worth thepain and struggle.
If I, if, if something we do orsay can help somebody else, um,
and family and a family can bepreserved, especially when, when
both people desperately want itand they just don't know how to
do it.

Heather Berry (01:00:48):
Yeah.

Scott Brandley (01:00:49):
Yeah, wow.

Cameron Berry (01:00:55):
We're ready for a final thought.
I actually did have something,scott okay.
Yeah, this is kind of the pointin the show where we ask you if
you have any final thoughts and,michael, I mean if you have
anything to share too, likeyou're welcome to share too you
know what I one of the biggestthings that I've learned from

(01:01:17):
this that every time I prayabout what do I share with
people, it keeps coming back tothis that we believe in a plan.
Heavenly Father has a plan forus, right?
We believe in that.
We also believe in a malevolentforce that knows this plan, and

(01:01:38):
if I was this malevolent force,I would pick the most important
things in this plan to messwith.
And sexuality is messed with,probably one of the hardest
things in this planet.
We know that.
You can see it, it's obvious,and so, whatever I pray about
what to share with people, Ijust keep feeling how to express
to people how amazing,beautiful and wonderful
sexuality is, and I think we'reliving beneath it, to be honest,

(01:02:06):
in every direction.
And one of the things to beable to be so open with Heather
and I, we've really reconnectedin ways sexually even that have
just been really amazing andseeing how healing and beautiful
this very sacred act is betweenman and wife, and I really want

(01:02:28):
to share that with the world.
This is amazing, this isbeautiful and wonderful and it
should be something that we havein our lives and if we can
manage it, it can be a crowningglory in this relationship that
we have in marriage.

Micheal Slade (01:02:47):
No, I agree it's a very sensitive subject.
I think, like Cameron said,it's been.
I think because, like Cameronsaid it's been, satan has really
meddled with it and it's becomea vice and a and it's something
to come between husband andwife.

(01:03:08):
It's it's been misused in insuch hurtful ways.
But you know, I just can I cantestify to what he's saying that
when we look for God's purposeand meaning in giving us gifts
like this, the reward is so richand such a blessing the gift of

(01:03:33):
sexuality, not to divide us,which is often what happens
inside of marriage, but to unifyus and to make us stronger.
And I think it's a glimpse ofeternity.
I think it's a glimpse ofsomething powerful.
I mean, it's the only God-likepower we have here, with
procreation right, and I thinkhe's giving us this small little
glimpse of what it's like to belike him, giving us this small

(01:03:57):
little glimpse of what it's liketo be like him, and it's a
powerful gift and we see how,because it's been, it has a
powerful way to destroy whenused inappropriately, and a
powerful way to build and createlife, and not just, not just
with, you know, having childrenand birth and all those things,
but to create life and energy inyour relationship and and just

(01:04:22):
in in your way of it's just soexpanding for, for a couple, and
I think it's like I think Godsays that's why it's so
important that it remains insideof the bounds of marriage,
because it's this incredibletool that God's given us and if
it's misused it can it canreally cause problems, and so
it's one of those things that Iknow as being on the other side

(01:04:43):
of it, where I actually it washard.
For me it was not something Ifelt was a gift.
It was something that wasdifficult because just for all
the meanings that we placebehind these things, but to have
come to the other side and tosee the beautiful gift that it
is, I just know that if couplescan work towards that and put
aside the meanings that we'veput on sex and look at it as

(01:05:11):
something that's helping usbecome more like our father in
heaven and to use to help us beone in mind and heart and
purpose, the rewards of it areabove and beyond what we can
understand.
And you know, I'm not evengoing to say we understand these

(01:05:31):
things.
We're still learning and we'rejust understanding the
importance of it, but it'sincredible, and not a surprise
that Satan attacks it the waythat he does.

And it just feels like we keep getting like 10,
10 warnings, the one hallelujah,and so what I feel like, cause
I want more hallelujah.

Yeah, it's awesome, thank you.

Yeah, wow, this has been awesome.
Thank you again for being onthe show.
Any final thoughts?
Is that any last things youwant to say?

Just that.
Yeah, we, we prepared a littlelike PDF, just a little tool, a
process that Cameron and I haveboth used and was refined really
through this process of helpingto identify, you know, the
things that are keeping us stuck, the thoughts, the beliefs that
are inside of our, the meaningsthat we're placing on, things

(01:06:32):
that trip us up, and how to walkthrough it and remember what's
true.
A lot of these things just kindof go under the surface, they're
unconscious, we don't realizewe're doing them.
But to put consciousness tothem, to see them, to shed light
on some of the lies that we'retelling ourselves and to
remember who we are, because weare divine children of God, we

(01:06:54):
are here for a purpose and heloves us and he knows us by name
, and if we can remember who weare, we can do a whole lot
better while we're here.
And so this PDF is just a fewpages, that walks, there's a
journal page and it walks youthrough like a five-step little
exercise that will help shedlight and truth on some darkness

(01:07:19):
when you're struggling, and sowe'll send you the link to
access that, and it's justsomething we wanted to share.
That's been very meaningful andhelpful to us.

Yeah, it's one of those things that we realized
that there's a lot of ways totry to cope with with feelings
in our life.
But this is this was a reallycool tool to kind of help you
find where are those feelingscoming from.
And, like I said before, when Iwas young I didn't realize how

(01:07:47):
much I was masking, and thistype of tool we've used that's
helped me kind of go back tothose memories and say, oh yeah,
that's kind of where I've wasstarting to make these, these
beliefs, and then help me workon them.
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's anamazing awesome.

How did you, how did you come up with it?

Um, I have, uh, I mean, I trained.
I'm a coach, I've trained forthe past nearly decade and
helping people walk through, uh,walk through processes similar
to this.
So I've certified in a techniquecalled belief breakthrough and,
as I studied my ownbreakthroughs and what really
helped me feel the full power ofthe atonement to learn the
lessons that I needed to learn,I was able to refine the process

(01:08:32):
to help it be something thatwould help really stick and help
help you remember who you are alittle bit more powerfully.
And so it's.
It's basically a baby that'sbeen, you know, formulating for
the past decade and that I'vebeen practicing, you know,
myself, on myself and with myclients and in this process that

(01:08:56):
Cameron and I have gone throughover the past several years has
really helped to refine it.
And so it's one you know we'reright now in the process of
writing a book to go more indepth about it, so we're hoping
to get that released before theend of the year just something

(01:09:16):
that we've practiced andexperienced for ourselves, and
and I've just studied and, andand and, uh, it's just morphed
as we've had life experience, uh, and and, honestly, it's just
it's a gift from God and none ofit is, it's not ours.
These are principles and truthsthat God, um God, has given us,
and so we were just kind ofwe're the organizers a little
bit into something that'sconcrete, that we can just walk

(01:09:39):
through, walk ourselves throughor help somebody else through.

That's awesome and it feels like a book is
necessary.
I can totally see it, I meaneven just from the things you've
shared here, and I'm sure thisis just a piece of of all of the
wisdom and insights that you'veput together.
So I'm excited when, when youlaunch your book, reach back out

(01:10:05):
, we'll have you back on thepodcast cool, we will thank you.
Yeah, yeah awesome, mikemichael.
Any any last thoughts orcomments?

you know, I talk a lot to a lot of my clients and
just say that this trials inour life could be a speed bump
or a roadblock and thatultimately, it's their decision.
Yep, it is.
So which one of those things isit going to be?

That's the real power.

And good for you guys for good for you guys for
doing the speed bump.

Thank you, when I was a bishop I called it.
You can hit a pothole or youcan go into a canyon.
It's way easier to get out of apothole than out of a canyon.

That is for sure.

Awesome.
Thanks again, guys, for beingon.
We really appreciate it, andthanks Michael for coming and
hanging out as my co-host, andthanks everyone for tuning in.
Hopefully you've got somereally good insights and
inspiration from Cameron andHeather today, and if you know
anyone that is struggling withpornography or anything like

(01:11:15):
this, this is a great podcast tobe able to share with them.
Go, hit that share button, doyour five second missionary work
and let's let's save somemarriages, let's bring some
people closer together through adifficult thing, rather than
have it separate.
Um, and if you have a storythat you'd like to share, go to

(01:11:36):
latterdaylightscom.
Let's have you on the show.
And thanks again for tuning inand we'll see you next week for
another episode of Latter-dayLights.
Until then, take care, bye-bye.

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Transforming a Secret Addiction into Radical Honesty: Heather & Cameron Berry's Story - Latter-Day Lights

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Transforming a Secret Addiction into Radical Honesty: Heather & Cameron Berry's Story - Latter-Day Lights