April 29, 2025 • 44 mins
Ever wonder why some leadership situations hit you harder than they should? Or why feedback sometimes feels way bigger than it is? It might be your mindset foundation — and it could be ready for a reset.
In today’s episode, mindset coach Margaret "MJ" Jennings joins me to talk about the mental side of leadership — the 95% we don’t always see but definitely feel. We dig into how old patterns show up in your leadership, how to shift your mindset, and why what you model matters even more than what you say.
If you’re ready to lead with more clarity, resilience, and real presence — this conversation is for you.
Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.
Excited to be with you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to episode 48 of the Lead Into it
podcast.
Hey, and welcome back to LeadInto it.
I'm your host, sarah Greco, andtoday's conversation is one
that's really going to stickwith you.
We're diving into somethingthat doesn't get talked about a
lot when it comes to leadership,and that is mindset coaching.
My guest today is MJ, and shebrings such a unique perspective
(00:23):
with her background inathletics coaching especially
hockey and how she now helpsleaders and others level up
their mental game.
You'll hear MJ talk about why95% of performance is actually
mental yes, 95% and how shiftingyour mindset is kind of like
upgrading your brain's operatingsystem.
We talk about emotions as clues, self-awareness as a superpower
(00:44):
, and what it looks like whenyou actually align your values
with how you show up every day.
Plus, mj shares some awesomesports techniques that you can
apply to leadership things likevisualization, mental warmups
and cooldowns, and how anchoringyourself can help you stay
steady when things get tough.
If you've ever felt like you'reon the edge of burnout,
struggling with feedback or justwondering how to grow into the
(01:05):
leader that you know you can be,this episode's for you.
Let's get into it.
Well, thanks, mj, for coming onthe show.
I'm excited to have you on LeadInto it and to talk to you a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here, looking
forward to our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So a couple of weeks ago I know we did like a
introduction call and I lovedhow you were talking about
mindset and mindset coaching andkind of how that worked
Something that I haven't had achance to dive into.
So I'm excited to hear aboutyour expertise and kind of bring
it to the show so that maybeother people can learn from it
and maybe apply it to you know,their life, their work, wherever
(01:38):
it's applicable for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is a massive component ofour performance, but you're
right often overlooked in favorof other things.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Often just, you know, like we're going for mindset.
We're like yeah, what ismindset?
What does that mean?
So excited to dive a little bitmore into that with you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, me too, me too, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I'd love to kind of hear how you kind of got to
this place of mindset coachingwith what you do now and a
little bit of that journey.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, so I mean, my coaching origins were in
athletics, so I coached insports, most notably hockey, for
many years, university level,provincial level, did some stuff
with the national programbefore I transitioned into
leadership coaching and evenwhen I was coaching athletes, at
that time I was very aware ofthe power that the mind carried
(02:33):
in terms of performance, andthere's a lot of studies to back
it up.
You know, 95% of our performanceis mental, and especially in
something like athletics, Iwould witness it and, first of
all, experience it myself in myplaying days prior to coaching,
but witness it a lot with theathletes I was supporting in
terms of the ones who had themost success and sustainability
(02:53):
in their performance, had apretty good mindset and were
able to mentally performsustainably over time as well.
So I've always had this senseand this understanding that the
mind is really what carries somuch power and influence over
how we show up in the world, andI was excited to be able to
take that into different avenues, whether it's again sports or
(03:17):
the world of work or the worldof entrepreneurship.
At the end of the day, it's ourmind that runs the show and we
need to learn how to program itso that it functions in a bit
more of a self-supportive way.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Programming I like that word a lot.
So programming your mind.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I think the analogy I'll often use is like,
when you think of the mind, it'skind of the operating system of
the brain Right, and often thatoperating system is outdated,
like it's based on beliefs andunderstandings that were formed
years and years ago, andsometimes we spend our whole
lives kind of at the mercy ofthat operating system.
Well, like this is just how itis and, I think, when we can
(03:55):
understand that we are theprogrammer right.
So yes, the operating systemruns the show, but we have the
capacity to program it indifferent ways, to kind of
upgrade it to better serve us.
I think there's a lot of powerin that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, so instead of a Windows Vista, we're like going
to Windows 10 or whatever we'reat right now.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, whatever number we're at, but yeah, absolutely,
that's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, when you talk about programming, do you mind
going through the process of,like how you start figuring out,
like where your mindset is atand how to level it up in a way,
Because leveling up it might be, is that the correct term you
could use?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's totally a term that you could use, I
think.
Yeah, I think a lot of itstarts, I mean and this is a
term that we preached a lot withthe company I used to work with
and I firmly believe in itawareness comes before
intelligence.
So I think the first step formost of us is just understanding
like, what is that operatingsystem right?
Like what are beliefs that aredriving the actions that I'm
(04:56):
taking and the decisions thatI'm making in my day to day life
, and where are those decisionssupporting me?
But also where are some ofthose decisions maybe holding me
back?
And where they're holding meback, that's where we want to
get in and start to get curious,right?
Okay, well, what is the belief,and is it really true?
And if it's not, kind of whatcan I believe instead to help
(05:17):
get myself to where I want to be?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
That's so interesting because I imagine that it's
shocking, as people dive deeperinto learning about their
self-awareness, what that beliefactually is that's holding them
back, because it's notsomething that they think about
on the regular, but their bodyreacts to it on the regular, and
so it's just neural pathwaysthat are like really the
(05:39):
pathways that are like reallyclear, and then you're trying to
drive new neural pathways tocreate a different type of
awareness and belief system.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, yeah, well, and ultimately, at the end of the
day, like the brain is driven tomake decisions without our
conscious awareness, right?
So 95% of the decisions that wemake happen on autopilot, so
we're not consciously aware ofthem, and it will stay that way
for the entirety of our livesunless we use kind of that 5% of
consciousness to get under thehood and look and kind of
(06:10):
understand what's going on inorder to again address it or
maybe change it or adjust it,moving forward.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So you talked about awareness and how do you start
getting into that 5% Like whatwould be like step two if
awareness is step one?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So awareness is a big step.
I would say like even to startat that point right, how do we
become aware?
Um and I think, again, a lot ofit is just getting curious about
why we act the way we do, andthe entry point for our
awareness is our emotions.
So any scenario in life thatputs us in and typically we use
(06:50):
like a negative emotion, that'sthe entry point, right.
So if I'm stressed orfrustrated, particularly in a
situation that doesn'tnecessarily warrant that emotion
, right, like, feeling stressedin this does not support me.
Yet I feel it Taking thatemotion and saying, okay, like
for me to feel stressed in thissituation, what might be true
(07:13):
about me or this situation,right.
And I think when we go in thatway, we can kind of get to what
that limiting belief might beand then we can start to
question it and challenge it.
I think most of us have quoteunquote limiting beliefs from
when we're younger, right.
We're learned, like we learn ata young age, to please other
people, to prioritize otherpeople's needs over our own,
(07:35):
because we rely on other peoplefor our own survival and
security, right.
So, yeah, it's in our bestinterest to not anger the people
that we rely on for, like oursustenance, to take care of us,
to clothe us, to provide for us.
But again, that seed right ofpeople pleasing Over time when
we reach a certain point in ourlife.
(07:57):
It was a strategy that kept ussafe and really benefited us.
But sometimes and oftentimes,when we reach a point in our
life where we want to go andgrow to bigger and better things
, it becomes this thing that'sholding us back.
But again, I think the entrypoint is just where are those
negative emotions showing up?
For me and for me to feel thisemotional response to this
(08:17):
situation?
What might be the belief?
Right, the belief might be it'snot safe for me to do something
that's going to upset someoneelse, or how I feel is not as
important as how other peoplefeel.
And then it's saying well, isthat really true?
And if not, why?
Right To be able to give thatbelief a greater context or a
(08:39):
more objective lens, to kind ofanalyze the situation from.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yes, definitely, and I I imagine that, as leaders, a
lot of these moments becausethere's so many different people
, dynamics happening andinterpersonal communications and
relationships that a lot ofthese moments you have, you're
like why am I reacting this wayto feedback, to a task being
done to me, like there's so manydifferent moments where you
(09:06):
subconsciously have thesereactions.
How do you help maneuverthrough those as you become more
self-aware and observe?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think the first step is acknowledging that your
emotion is not a fact, and eventhat your thoughts are not a
fact, because, again, right, ifwe don't take the time to
consider it, it feels like afact.
Right, I feel this way and thisfeeling is predicated on the
truth, and I think, when westart to get curious about it,
(09:38):
it takes a big weight off of ourshoulders to understand that
our emotional response tosomething is not necessarily the
truth, it's just based on aninterpretation that we have
programmed.
And I think even that, forpeople, is really freeing,
because then it opens up thedoor for us to interpret it
differently, even just toembrace that there's another
potential interpretation.
(09:58):
Right, like, I've receivedconstructive feedback and I feel
so angry and offended.
And why?
Why do I feel that way?
Well, because I need to beperfect to be good enough.
But is that really true from myadult self, when I look at the
situation like is that what Iwould tell someone else that I
(10:18):
love?
That you have to be perfect oryou're not?
No, of course not, because ashumans, we're flawed and it's
normal to, and you know what thefeedback is going to be a great
opportunity for growth for me,but I think it's opening the
door to have those reframingconversations with ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, when you have those reframing conversations,
sometimes you're like a lot ofback and forth.
Like in my brain I'm like thisconversation is just going way
too long.
Like in my brain I'm like thisconversation is just going way
too long.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, I guess what is a situation that you've seen
either regularly among people orlike maybe your clients, that
are like here's how theseconversations kind of play out
and here's how to be the bestversion of yourself or who you
want to be, based on what yourmindset could be.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So I would say one that I see a lot with leaders
that's a common challenge is ifthey're in a position where
their values, right, and whatthey believe is most important
in their heart of hearts doesn'talign with their leadership's
values and what's important tothem, and that can cause a lot
of inner turmoil, right, Becauseit's like, well, I truly
(11:26):
believe this, this is the impactI want to have.
Yet I'm being negativelyimpacted by this and the irony
is, when we get fixated on theleaders and that misalignment
and the frustrations with howthey're acting and the way
they're doing things, it pullsus out of alignment with our own
values.
we end up angry and frustratedand annoyed and we're not able
(11:47):
to show up as our true selves,right?
So like sometimes I'll use theanalogy because that one's so
common Like, sometimes I'll usethe analogy of like, if you
think of work as a garden, right, and it's like a garden has
flowers and a garden has weeds,and we can become really fixated
on the weeds and we want to getrid of all the weeds and we
(12:07):
want it to be a weedless gardenand the weeds are a threat.
So now we're fixated on it andwe're staring and we're waiting
for, like, we're waiting forthem to come up from the ground,
but we're ignoring the flowersand therefore the flowers die
because we're not planting theseeds, we're not caring for
those seeds, and that's thewhole point of having a garden
anyways, right?
So the weeds are inevitable.
(12:29):
It's not that we should ignorethem.
I think it's understanding.
You can't weed the sacrifice ofplanting the seeds and caring
for the flowers and finding thatbalance, cause I think that
happens a lot, right.
We get like we are fixated onthose weeds.
We become like master weednoticers and finding ways to get
(12:49):
rid of them, but at the expense.
When we're only focused on thatis pretty great personally and
then also within the team.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And I love that analogy, first off because it's
very visible of how you candescribe it.
And then when it comes tovalues.
I think when we have thoseinterpersonal conversations or
the relationships with ourleaders, it's hard to figure out
why you are so frustrated withthem and I do agree, a lot of
times it is with the values notnecessarily aligning.
(13:21):
So you do fixate on, like, well, this is just frustrating, and
then you focus on thefrustrations and nothing else
will get done because you'relike but I don't understand why
they're not focused on a, weshould be focused on B.
And I have found, throughconversations of like, through
my clients and through my peersand colleagues, that this is
where turmoil really builds inan organization, where it's like
(13:45):
well, why I don't think weshould focus on this, we should
be focusing on this.
Um, and the way that you'redescribing it, it kind of
emphasizes like where we do havecontrol in a way, because
there's a lot of things that asleaders, as employees, we don't
have control over, and that'sokay.
As leaders, as employees, wedon't have control over, and
(14:08):
that's okay.
So where can we focus ourcontrol, would you say.
That also is a part of themindset mentality type thing.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Massive, massive right.
Like it is so easy to getcaught up in all of the things
we can't control.
Yet the emotion that comes frombeing in that, especially if
it's something that we don'tagree with, is anxiety and
frustration and overwhelm orhelplessness, because I'm
focused on something that Icannot affect change to right
and I'm focusing on how it'simpacting me.
(14:34):
I think part of it isunderstanding again the brain
from an evolutionary perspective.
Like it's designed to keep ussafe and alive, so it's
naturally inclined to look forthe dangers and the threats.
Right, oh, this doesn't align,but understanding like that's an
evolutionary thing, becauseonce upon a time, like there
might be a tiger behind thattree and your life really
(14:54):
depended on that.
But now, in the current spaceand time, yes, like their values
may not align, but it's notthreatening my actual life.
And is it the best place for meto put my time and energy?
Because I cannot complain andproblem solve at the same time,
I cannot be in survival and becreative at the same time.
(15:16):
Like I am either choosing tofire this part of my brain or
this one and there is a cost oneither side, right?
So I think again this notion ofunderstanding at the end of the
day, our brain is a cost oneither side, right?
So I think again this notion ofunderstanding at the end of the
day, our brain is a biologicalfunction of the body, right?
It is not.
Um, it is not this end-allbe-all that knows all of the
truths, and I think, much likeyou know, our stomach, our
(15:38):
digestive system, is abiological function of the body.
What we eat impacts how ourstomach functions, what we think
, what we reinforce, how wedirect our focus and energy and
attention over time, just howour brain functions in the same
way, right, and I think it'sjust helping people understand
that and look at the brain inthat way.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, and I can't remember where I've heard this,
but when we receive feedback,it's the same reaction where
it's like a tiger attacking us.
So our body's like in avisceral reaction of like oh my
gosh, constructive feedback, Imight die.
And until you recognize thatthat's what your body's feeling,
you're like, oh why am I sooverwhelmed?
(16:19):
And I'm so like just cringingright now.
So, once you're aware of it,you're able to maneuver through
it and be like okay, well, letme actually listen to this with
my creative mind, myopen-mindedness, like I'm, my
life is actually fine, I'm.
This isn't a tiger, this isjust.
I had a mistype in my emailLike, yeah, right, and uh, just
(16:42):
creating that mindset so thatyou can be your best self.
Yeah, I'd love to go back to thesports part of your story a
little bit, because I'd becurious to hear how the mindset,
how you saw it, impact theplayers that you were either
coaching or working with, andhow that kind of plays into what
(17:02):
you do today, because Iremember basketball in high
school and I was not thegreatest player coaching or
working with and how that kindof plays into what you do today,
because, uh, I rememberbasketball in high school and I
was not the greatest player atall, um, but like I remember it
was like it's all aboutvisualization.
Michael Jordan visualized allhis games and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And so I will say, like that's something I wish I
could have done better in highschool.
But as we go into, this mindsetis a great thing, yeah, but
kind of like with yourbackground, what did you see was
possible and why is thatimportant?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, great question.
I think a few things likevisualization.
Yes, absolutely, and it's.
It's funny because often in thework that I do with clients, I
do liken it to the sportstraining and coaching and
athletics, because essentiallywhat we're doing is we're
training the brain.
Right, we're trying to workwith the brain to strengthen it,
to make it more resilient, toallow it to be more
(17:53):
self-supportive, to juststrengthen it in productive ways
.
I would say.
Even what we've just talked on,like that was a huge part of the
mental performance in sport isfocusing on what you can control
versus what you can't.
Right, I can't control theopposition, I can't control the
referees, I can't controlparents in the stands or even,
to an extent, what my coachessay, whether they play me or not
(18:16):
, like I can control whathappens the next shift when my
skates hit the ice and I want mymind to be where my feet are.
And I think that as well, right, when we talk about performance
, our brain tends to drift intothe past or travel into the
future quite often Because,again, it's trying to call on
past examples to predict what'sgoing to happen in the future
(18:38):
for our own safety andwell-being sometimes well,
sometimes not well and then it'strying to anticipate what's
going to happen because it wantsus to be prepared.
But one of the phrases I loveis this notion of, like you know
, depression is when our mind isin the past, anxiety is when
our mind is in the future andpeace is found in the present
moment.
So it's not that our mindshouldn't go there, but I think
(19:01):
too often our minds live there.
So if you talk about sports,right, I think the athletes who
maybe made a mistake and came tothe bench and were ruminating
on the mistake and beatingthemselves up about the mistake
and, frustrated about themistake, they would go out for
the next shift and, guess what?
They would make more mistakesversus the ones who were able to
just move on and play the game,shift by shift or play by play.
(19:24):
I think there's a lot of powerto that, and even as a leader or
as an entrepreneur, like beingwhere my feet are.
But so of course, we take timeout to strategically plan and we
have the vision board and wepicture ourselves doing hard
things and having success, butultimately, to be in the present
moment, I think take someconscious, deliberate effort to
(19:45):
connect ourselves with that andkeep ourselves connected to it.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So how, what are some tactics to kind of keep us
connected to the present, sothat we can stay where our feet
are?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean and again this iswith athletes, but also in the
professional side the notion ofsetting intention statements.
So, as I'm going into doingsomething right, being really
deliberate, so rather thanletting my brain take me where I
want to, providing my brainsome guidance, right and clarity
on what it is that I want tofocus on, where it is I want to
(20:18):
improve.
I think giving ourself thatguidance is really helpful.
And then, in terms of incompetition, one of the big
things was something likeanchoring, which is.
It could be a word, it could besome sort of movement.
Sometimes people would write aword or like, put a dot on their
racket or their, theirequipment or their arm and doing
(20:38):
like again this positivevisualization of things going
well, right, me performing well,me being confident, and
connecting it with that visualor that word as a way that in
the moment, right, if somethinggoes sideways, something to
connect me back to the presentmoment and to the positive frame
of mind.
Because I think one of thebiggest challenges right Is is
(20:59):
again going back to like if Iget constructive feedback and my
response is like, oh my God,I'm going to die, like the heart
rate elevates right, like wehave this physiological response
.
I think part of it is havingrealistic expectations for
ourselves, because mindsetcoaching is not about never
feeling upset or afraid orscared.
Like we can't change thatautomatic like the automatic
(21:20):
reaction that we havephysiologically, but there's
that space to choose ourresponse.
Once we acknowledge it Rightand I think that's the challenge
is okay.
My heart rate's elevated and Ican either like jump on this
wave and ride it out and itbecomes a big thing, or I can
let this wave pass and thenchoose how I want to respond to
(21:42):
the situation.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And I love hearing about how sports players do it,
kind of ground themselves inthat way, because I imagine the
same technique can be appliedfor the feedback session where
it's like this is my word, likecommit or humble or whatever
that word could be, or if it's adot on your notebook that you
(22:04):
reflect on, like this is whatmakes me grow.
Bringing that back to yourselfmakes you take a pause to
reflect on who you want to be.
What is the goal of who I wantto be?
Does this fit into that goal?
Does this fit that persona ofthat future, that intention of
who I want to be?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, Well, and I think that's a huge thing too,
right, and again with leaders oranyone, I think we can get
really caught up in thesacrifice of the important for
the urgent right, like that'sgood.
So-and-so.
Everybody needs all of thisstuff, and that's where I think
something like anchoring isgreat, because it's our way of
making sure that we stay pluggedin to the important right, and
we don't get caught up down apath that's actually taking us
(22:47):
away from that and actually.
So.
Two other things actually fromthe world of sports.
I did a presentation the otherweek and there were a few things
that resonated with people.
I think the other thing fromthe world of sports, when we
talk about mindset, is thisnotion of failure being the
starting point.
When we talk about mindset, isthis notion of, like failure
being the starting point.
I think when we'reentrepreneurs or when we're
(23:08):
leaders or we're new to theposition, again talking about
realistic expectations, like weput a lot of pressure on
ourselves to have all of theanswers, figure out all the
solutions, solve all of theproblems, and I think having
that unrealistic expectationoften hurts us more than helps
us, because it puts us right inthis survival mode where our
mental, our emotional and ourmental resources are limited,
(23:32):
Like they're cut off.
Whereas if I stay in curiosityand I stay realistic with my
expectations and I look atsomething going wrong not as a
reflection of my failure butlike an inevitable part of
growing in the role, I can staycurious.
So my mind stays open, myemotions stay open.
I'm going to have access tomore of that creativity and
(23:53):
innovation to solve the problems.
And you know, when I started asport much like you I'm sure
like the first time I stepped onthe ice I fell and then I got
up and then I fell and then Igot up and then I fell, and then
I got up and then I fell like,and it's, there's a humility
that comes with understanding,Like we're all crap at something
until we practice enough andlearn enough to get
(24:13):
progressively better over time,and I think that's really
important.
Um, the other one is the notionof the warmup and a cool down,
which, again, as a leader, Iknow there's a lot of leaders in
like the back to back meetingsall day.
They get out of bed.
What do they do?
And not even out of bed, theygrab this right.
(24:34):
Oh, all these emails, oh, I gotto get back to these people At
the end of the day again on thephone looking through things.
And if you think about anathlete in terms of their
performance, if they were neverto warm up or cool down, what
would it do to their performanceversus the role that a warm up
and cool down plays?
Yeah, Like I'm curious, fromyour perspective, what do you
(24:57):
see as the value of having kindof that mental warm up and that
mental cool down to start yourday and end your day?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I love all of this and I keep talking about the
things I love, but I think thisis so applicable for leaders and
supervisors as they go throughit.
One talking about failure, Ithink as humans, even we try to
be perfect and we're also likewell, this is my goal, I'm
already going to be good at it,and then you forget that you
actually have to like fail everyonce in a while in order to
become better.
Like failing is a step in theright direction.
(25:29):
But we don't like that feelingof failure, so we're like well,
nevermind, maybe I'm just notgood at it.
And if you give up too quickly,then you don't end up actually
growing upon yourself andleadership.
We don't think like people whoare in leaders or supervisory
roles or even those that arejust project I mean not just,
(25:50):
but project managing there's alot of failure that goes along
with it, because every situationis unique, every dynamic is
unique.
You go through the day to dayand you try to do the best that
you can, which is how you groundyourself, but you're going to
inevitably make mistakes, makepeople mad, send out the wrong
email, like there's just a lotof things that, no matter how
(26:13):
hard you try, you're going tomake mistakes, and so it's
understanding the human part ofit and how, as humans, we're
going to fail and just bouncingback from that in some way shape
or form.
And then, when it comes to warmup and cool down, I love that
you mentioned that.
I never thought about that as aleader, but I wonder if
applying that mentality would begood to prevent burnout as we
(26:38):
are seeing this.
And the reason I also find itinteresting is because this
almost has nothing to do withwhat we're talking about.
It has everything to do withwhat we're talking about.
I am following this Broadwayactress on Instagram and so she
talks about her warm-ups beforethe show and I was like that
makes sense.
Like you need to warm up yourvoice, your body, all the things
, but then, while she's takingoff all of her makeup, all of
(27:01):
her costume stuff, she's talkingabout her cool-down.
I was like I never even.
I just thought they were donelike cooling down, stretching,
whatever, but with your voice,like she's literally cooling
down her voice.
So if we're applying this insports, we're applying this to
ways that we're using our bodyand our mind.
Leadership should be a part ofthat.
(27:22):
Managing, working, just workingin general should be part of
that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, because ultimately, regardless of the
field, we're talking aboutperformance, right, we're
talking about how do I optimizeand sustain my performance.
So, sports, of course, theperformative part is a little
more noticeable and evident interms of the physical.
But as a leader like I am taskedwith performing in my role as a
leader, right, and I think Imean that one in particular is
(27:51):
really resonated with me,because, like, if an athlete did
not warm up to prepare, likementally and physically right,
they're stepping in, they'regoing to be more prone to injury
.
Right, like, mentally, it'sgoing to take them the first
part of the actual competitionto get themselves going.
And then, without the cool downas well, right, like we, when
we don't cool down our body, ourbody doesn't shut off, and we
(28:13):
see that a lot with leaders too.
Right, like, if I don't have anend to my day, I can bring my
work frustrations and just mytrain of thought being fixated
on work into home and that cancause issues like personally and
interrelationship wise with,like, family.
So I think there's a lot ofbenefit to looking to do that
and I think that's the neatthing about sports is that it
(28:35):
really is about optimizingperformance.
Like, how do we take the humanmind and body and make it as
effective and efficient aspossible?
Yet in the world of work wedon't really think about that
right.
We don't think like how do Itake this employee?
and actually promote and supporttheir human performance in the
(28:55):
role.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, and it's interesting that you go, that
you went that way, because I'dbe curious as a leader like you
see other people like how do youmaximize your team's
performance?
How do you help them become thebest version of themselves and
create the space in which theyfeel like they can warm up, they
can cool down, they can fail,have the psychological safety in
that space to feel like theycan make mistakes and grow from
(29:18):
that?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah Well, and it's fascinating you say that because
I think again in the world ofsports, coaches will think about
that for their athletes, butthey're not necessarily thinking
about it for themselves.
And there's a cost on that right, because as the leader, you
really are setting the tone,like you're not just words, but
your actions and the way you'reshowing up really impacts the
team's behavior, and I thinkthere's more needed support for
(29:43):
that right.
So not just how do you optimizethe athletes, but how do you
optimize your own performance asa coach and actually understand
the importance of that?
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And in the world that we're in today and I'll say
this speaking as a militarymember there's a big dynamic
where it's first to be in theoffice, last to leave, like
leaders eat last, which isthere's part of that.
That's very true.
But also, when you set thattone, sometimes the people that
you lead see that they see thatyou're putting so much effort
(30:12):
into this and they think thatthat expectation resides with
them.
Now, what if we shifted that,talked about the cool up or the
warmup, the cool down, cool up,uh, the warmup, cool down.
They saw that in the morningyou had set aside time to work
out, to really look at your day,create that white space so that
you can be strategic andintentional about how you're
(30:34):
approaching each of the actionsfor the day, with those meetings
and with the emails that you'resetting, and then at the end of
the day you're doing a cooldown where it's, you're talking
with everyone, seeing howeveryone did, getting updates,
putting that in your to-do listand getting ready for the next
day.
Like, imagine what a world thatwould create for the team that
you lead by setting that example.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, absolutely Incredibly powerful Right, and I
think you can't underestimatethe impact it would have on your
own sustainability, because, Imean, you can be the greatest
leader in the world.
But again, we're running off ofa human mind, we're running off
of a certain level of capacityand energy, and most of us
invest solely in things thatdrain our energy and we're not
(31:17):
making a conscious effort toinvest in things that maybe
replenish it right At the end ofthe day like we're a human
being, you know like we needrest, we need recovery in order
to sustain our performance, andthat's why burnout is so rampant
because people just aren'ttaking the time that they need.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Not like it's a luxury to have, your performance
is being negatively impacted bynot doing this Taking care of
yourself, making sure that yourcup is filled so that you can
give to others and then thatsets a tone.
It's a trickle effect.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, big time, big time.
Well, and I think that's acertain brand of leader too that
we haven't really discussed.
But the leader that's likereally does care about the team
and it's incrediblyself-sacrificial.
Again, leaders eat last.
Like they care about people andtheir wellbeing, they want them
to have the time and space theyneed, yet they're not taking it
(32:10):
themselves and I thinksometimes we underestimate like
our actions carry more weightthan our words.
So if I'm saying you know, takethe weekend, I don't want you to
and out of the kindness of myown heart, on a Saturday at 7pm,
like I'm sending an email orI'm doing whatever because I
want to inform people, they willfeel inclined to do the same.
(32:31):
Like I remember hearing on apodcast a while ago talking
about, like when you walk into aroom as a leader, like you're
kind of in a bear suit, you knowand you may not realize you're
in a bear suit, but like thereis a particular energy that
people pay attention to whatyou're doing right, like the
perception of threat or thepower that you carry in terms of
(32:53):
affecting change.
People pay more attention towhat it is you're doing and and
we can easily overlook- that.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
In addition to that, I love that the bear analogy
because, especially coming froma military mindset, the higher
in rank somebody is that entersthe room, I noticed that ideas
are taken.
I noticed that ideas are takenlike as go-dos.
So the power that you have inorder to, uh like, create action
(33:25):
that you didn't even think wasbeing created is very impactful
on the people that you lead.
So, understanding the powerthat you have with the words
that you say as you move intothese things, and just
understanding the role that thatcan play in your team's day to
day, um, and how much eitherchurn that'll create or
inspiration, and uh, go get herattitude.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, absolutely Great point.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So we've talked a lot about like different mindset
tools and resources that we canuse to kind of create that good
mindset it sounds like tostrengthen it, to make it better
.
But what happens if we don'ttake care of this mindset?
Like what happens if we just gothroughout our day to day and
(34:05):
just say, forget it, it's notworth it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Again, I would almost compare it like mental fitness
to physical fitness.
So if we don't care for ourphysical fitness by doing things
deliberately right tostrengthen our body or to
nourish our body, we can surviveand we can live.
But our mobility, our qualityof life and the potential and
(34:29):
possibilities for things isdecreased, right, the likelihood
of potentially contracting somesort of long-term disease or
ailment is increased.
So and I think this is thechallenge Like people can live
based on like that old operatingsystem, right, like I can
survive.
But I might be more susceptibleto feeling negative emotions,
(34:50):
I'm going to be less likely totake risks, I'm going to maybe
not pursue things that reallymatter to me, because it's
better to be safe than to befulfilled.
But we're not.
Again, it's kind of this battle,right, between the spiritual
component of humanity that'slike we're here for greater
purpose and an impact, and weaspire to achieve something
greater and have an impactgreater than ourselves and this
(35:13):
brain that wants to keep us safe.
So, again, from the mentalstandpoint, can we survive?
Yes, but we may face morelimitations, right, we may play
smaller and ultimately we mayhave more regret when it's all
said and done.
So is it possible?
Yes, and I think part of thechallenge too is understanding.
A lot of times we don't come toface with those costs until the
(35:37):
end, right like we get to thatpoint and we look back and like,
oh, I wish I did this or I wishI did that and so my thing is
like always trying to helppeople zoom out and understand,
because, I mean, the brain willalso make decisions in the
pursuit of short-term pleasureat the expense of long-term pain
.
Right, it wants to feel good now, and often what feels good is
(35:57):
what's familiar.
But I think helping clientsunderstand, yes, this feels good
now, but you have to understandthe whole picture long-term.
This is the cost associatedwith that.
And conversely, yeah, thismight feel a little
uncomfortable right now and youdon't want to do it, but you
know what, if you do it likerepeatedly, five years from now,
(36:17):
this is where you're going tobe and how freaking great is
that going to feel right.
So I think helping clientsunderstand the leveraging
component too of the pain andpleasure associations we have
with the different choices wemake.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, and when it comes to physicality and using
mindset, when it comes to sportsor challenging yourself
physically, you can feel and seethe differences as you create
those habits.
So you want to be a marathonrunner.
You start running and creatingthose distances and you can
physically feel that discomfortand you're like it's because I'm
(36:51):
running a mile more or it's hotout.
So you can kind of create thereasoning behind it and you're
like I just need to push pastthis uncomfortability because
that's my goal, that's who Iwant to be.
Is that marathon runner?
When it comes to your mindset,you don't see any of this.
You're like it's all internaland you're like am I actually
making progress?
(37:11):
I don't know, I guess I feelbetter internal and you're like
am I actually making progress?
I don't know, I guess I feelbetter, like that I was reacting
before and now I'm like beingproactive, so that feels good,
but like I don't know.
So it's hard to kind of see thedifference when you can be like
here's my medal for my marathon.
You don't really get a medalfor having a good mindset.
That's what I'm thinking aboutis the mindset, but I guess the
(37:35):
metal, if we're really like wewant to go something tangible is
like the calmness and the peace, like bringing it back to
earlier, like that peace thatyou feel, uh, whenever you kind
of stay in the present and staygrounded.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah Well, and I also think it's in the decisions we
make right.
So you're right.
I love that point, cause Ithink that's where a lot of
people struggle.
I think, if you're just makingthe decision to feel better,
like that's very vague, it'squalitative, how do we measure
it?
But this is where I think theother component of it is acting
our way into a new way ofthinking.
I think you know, to just wantto feel better isn't necessarily
(38:09):
enough.
I think we have to motivateourselves through setting
intentions to actually stepoutside of our comfort zone
mentally.
So if we're scared of doingsomething like, actually do the
darn thing to prove to yourselfand your brain like new proof
and evidence oh I did it and Ididn't die, and I'm actually
here and maybe I even enjoyed ita little bit, right.
So, like, if we're a leader,like it might be having a
(38:31):
difficult conversation withthing.
Right, like, if I want to getstronger, I don't want to just
(38:58):
say I want to be stronger, I'mgoing to be stronger, I'm strong
now, right, like.
It's like you have to go to thegym and get on the machine and
do the reps and you know what.
There's an inevitableresistance to doing that because
the brain has done somethingdifferent for a long time, and I
think that's part of it too.
A big part is, when you'retrying to affect change or do
(39:19):
things that the mind's pushingback on, is that that resistance
is inevitable.
It's not a sign that it's notgood for you or not right.
It's just unfamiliar.
And the only way to buildfamiliarity is through
repetition and action.
And the irony is the more youdo it, the more comfortable you
get with it.
Right, and when you think aboutit, over the course of our
lives, there's so many thingsthat we've all done for the
(39:41):
first time.
Like we went to school, we read, we walked.
Like we had a conversation withsomeone, we had our first job.
You know any skills that wehave now, once upon a time
started as nothing, and the waywe built that confidence was
through action.
So I think it's really takingactions to support those new
beliefs, not just saying, oh, Iwant this other thing, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Cause wanting and doing aren't the same thing.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
No, it would be nice, it would be easier.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
The brain would be so happy with that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, I want this Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Perfect.
So, as we're coming to the endof our conversation and the
audience and those that arelistening are just like, wow,
this is such good information,like I really want to tackle my
mindset and I'm going to be anew leader or manager or I'm
taking on this new project, whatis one step that they can take
towards creating that mindset tobe who they want to be?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Two things.
One, pick up the book Mindsetby Carol Dweck.
It's a great, just informativebook to start understanding,
right, how the mind functions,what's the difference between a
growth mindset and a fixedmindset.
But I would say if you'rereally looking to affect change,
the best thing you could do foryourself is to reach out to
someone to have thatconversation and again, I think
(41:02):
that's saying it from experience.
I knew that I wanted to makechanges but at the end of the
day we're subjective beings,right.
We just don't necessarilypossess the objectivity to
really understand and get atthose challenges on our own in a
box.
So for me, working with a coachis really what allowed me to
expand my perspective andunderstand some of my own
beliefs a bit better, and Ithink it's really freeing.
(41:25):
I think there's a lot of peoplethat put the weight to I don't
want to use the word fix, butlike to improve themselves all
on their own shoulders and theycan spend years picking up all
the books and trying to do allthe things, Whereas if you can
work with someone whounderstands and can kind of help
you see yourself in a differentlight, it can really expedite
the process.
You're not meant to growth isnot meant to happen alone.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, that's so true.
Especially with a community,you can see more of what's
possible, whether it's with acoach or a good set of
colleagues or mastermind groupor whatever that that setting
could be to, where you can kindof reflect upon, like, here's
where I want my mindset to goand here's what I'm doing, but
(42:08):
is that actually supporting meor not?
I love that you brought that up, because there's when we're too
close to the issue, it's hardto gain perspective on it.
So when you get those differentperspectives, um, and see, like
maybe something through theireyes instead because while
perception isn't reality, itdoes have a really big yeah, try
(42:32):
telling my brain, that yeah.
Well, I mean, that's a reallygood point.
You're like, well, I having aconversation, whatever its
feedback.
I said this.
They took it as this is thatperception, reality, how can I
be better to share what Iactually meant Be a better
communicator and so kind ofcreating that perspective and
(42:53):
zooming, zooming out the 5,000,50,000 foot level, whatever that
is, and getting that?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
yeah, always yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean listen like I'vestudied this stuff now for over
13, 14 years and I still workwith coaches because I know that
I can't get to the heart ofcertain things or I need help
reframing because at the end ofthe day, we're humans and the
way we see things we're quiteclosely tied to.
(43:18):
But I do think it's such a gifteven just to understand
conceptually right, that we arenot our thoughts, right, that
our emotions are not facts, andit can just create an
opportunity to start to choosedifferently and not feel like
we're kind of like prisoner towhatever we think and feel.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Our brain is there to protect us, but we have the
option to decide to grow.
Yes very well said.
Oh, awesome.
Well, thank you so much, mj.
I really enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm definitely personally gonnatake a lot of information for
my own self, and I hope that theaudience does too.
It was wonderful talking withyou.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into
it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me if you
would leave a review on ApplePodcasts or Spotify to help
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to
leadintoitco.
That's leadintoitco.
Thanks again.
You're listening to episode 48 of the Lead Into it
podcast.
Hey, and welcome back to LeadInto it.
I'm your host, sarah Greco, andtoday's conversation is one
that's really going to stickwith you.
We're diving into somethingthat doesn't get talked about a
lot when it comes to leadership,and that is mindset coaching.
My guest today is MJ, and shebrings such a unique perspective
(00:23):
with her background inathletics coaching especially
hockey and how she now helpsleaders and others level up
their mental game.
You'll hear MJ talk about why95% of performance is actually
mental yes, 95% and how shiftingyour mindset is kind of like
upgrading your brain's operatingsystem.
We talk about emotions as clues, self-awareness as a superpower
(00:44):
, and what it looks like whenyou actually align your values
with how you show up every day.
Plus, mj shares some awesomesports techniques that you can
apply to leadership things likevisualization, mental warmups
and cooldowns, and how anchoringyourself can help you stay
steady when things get tough.
If you've ever felt like you'reon the edge of burnout,
struggling with feedback or justwondering how to grow into the
(01:05):
leader that you know you can be,this episode's for you.
Let's get into it.
Well, thanks, mj, for coming onthe show.
I'm excited to have you on LeadInto it and to talk to you a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here, looking
forward to our conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So a couple of weeks ago I know we did like a
introduction call and I lovedhow you were talking about
mindset and mindset coaching andkind of how that worked
Something that I haven't had achance to dive into.
So I'm excited to hear aboutyour expertise and kind of bring
it to the show so that maybeother people can learn from it
and maybe apply it to you know,their life, their work, wherever
(01:38):
it's applicable for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is a massive component ofour performance, but you're
right often overlooked in favorof other things.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Often just, you know, like we're going for mindset.
We're like yeah, what ismindset?
What does that mean?
So excited to dive a little bitmore into that with you.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, me too, me too, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I'd love to kind of hear how you kind of got to
this place of mindset coachingwith what you do now and a
little bit of that journey.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, so I mean, my coaching origins were in
athletics, so I coached insports, most notably hockey, for
many years, university level,provincial level, did some stuff
with the national programbefore I transitioned into
leadership coaching and evenwhen I was coaching athletes, at
that time I was very aware ofthe power that the mind carried
(02:33):
in terms of performance, andthere's a lot of studies to back
it up.
You know, 95% of our performanceis mental, and especially in
something like athletics, Iwould witness it and, first of
all, experience it myself in myplaying days prior to coaching,
but witness it a lot with theathletes I was supporting in
terms of the ones who had themost success and sustainability
(02:53):
in their performance, had apretty good mindset and were
able to mentally performsustainably over time as well.
So I've always had this senseand this understanding that the
mind is really what carries somuch power and influence over
how we show up in the world, andI was excited to be able to
take that into different avenues, whether it's again sports or
(03:17):
the world of work or the worldof entrepreneurship.
At the end of the day, it's ourmind that runs the show and we
need to learn how to program itso that it functions in a bit
more of a self-supportive way.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Programming I like that word a lot.
So programming your mind.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I think the analogy I'll often use is like,
when you think of the mind, it'skind of the operating system of
the brain Right, and often thatoperating system is outdated,
like it's based on beliefs andunderstandings that were formed
years and years ago, andsometimes we spend our whole
lives kind of at the mercy ofthat operating system.
Well, like this is just how itis and, I think, when we can
(03:55):
understand that we are theprogrammer right.
So yes, the operating systemruns the show, but we have the
capacity to program it indifferent ways, to kind of
upgrade it to better serve us.
I think there's a lot of powerin that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, so instead of a Windows Vista, we're like going
to Windows 10 or whatever we'reat right now.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, whatever number we're at, but yeah, absolutely,
that's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, when you talk about programming, do you mind
going through the process of,like how you start figuring out,
like where your mindset is atand how to level it up in a way,
Because leveling up it might be, is that the correct term you
could use?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, that's totally a term that you could use, I
think.
Yeah, I think a lot of itstarts, I mean and this is a
term that we preached a lot withthe company I used to work with
and I firmly believe in itawareness comes before
intelligence.
So I think the first step formost of us is just understanding
like, what is that operatingsystem right?
Like what are beliefs that aredriving the actions that I'm
(04:56):
taking and the decisions thatI'm making in my day to day life
, and where are those decisionssupporting me?
But also where are some ofthose decisions maybe holding me
back?
And where they're holding meback, that's where we want to
get in and start to get curious,right?
Okay, well, what is the belief,and is it really true?
And if it's not, kind of whatcan I believe instead to help
(05:17):
get myself to where I want to be?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
That's so interesting because I imagine that it's
shocking, as people dive deeperinto learning about their
self-awareness, what that beliefactually is that's holding them
back, because it's notsomething that they think about
on the regular, but their bodyreacts to it on the regular, and
so it's just neural pathwaysthat are like really the
(05:39):
pathways that are like reallyclear, and then you're trying to
drive new neural pathways tocreate a different type of
awareness and belief system.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, yeah, well, and ultimately, at the end of the
day, like the brain is driven tomake decisions without our
conscious awareness, right?
So 95% of the decisions that wemake happen on autopilot, so
we're not consciously aware ofthem, and it will stay that way
for the entirety of our livesunless we use kind of that 5% of
consciousness to get under thehood and look and kind of
(06:10):
understand what's going on inorder to again address it or
maybe change it or adjust it,moving forward.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So you talked about awareness and how do you start
getting into that 5% Like whatwould be like step two if
awareness is step one?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So awareness is a big step.
I would say like even to startat that point right, how do we
become aware?
Um and I think, again, a lot ofit is just getting curious about
why we act the way we do, andthe entry point for our
awareness is our emotions.
So any scenario in life thatputs us in and typically we use
(06:50):
like a negative emotion, that'sthe entry point, right.
So if I'm stressed orfrustrated, particularly in a
situation that doesn'tnecessarily warrant that emotion
, right, like, feeling stressedin this does not support me.
Yet I feel it Taking thatemotion and saying, okay, like
for me to feel stressed in thissituation, what might be true
(07:13):
about me or this situation,right.
And I think when we go in thatway, we can kind of get to what
that limiting belief might beand then we can start to
question it and challenge it.
I think most of us have quoteunquote limiting beliefs from
when we're younger, right.
We're learned, like we learn ata young age, to please other
people, to prioritize otherpeople's needs over our own,
(07:35):
because we rely on other peoplefor our own survival and
security, right.
So, yeah, it's in our bestinterest to not anger the people
that we rely on for, like oursustenance, to take care of us,
to clothe us, to provide for us.
But again, that seed right ofpeople pleasing Over time when
we reach a certain point in ourlife.
(07:57):
It was a strategy that kept ussafe and really benefited us.
But sometimes and oftentimes,when we reach a point in our
life where we want to go andgrow to bigger and better things
, it becomes this thing that'sholding us back.
But again, I think the entrypoint is just where are those
negative emotions showing up?
For me and for me to feel thisemotional response to this
(08:17):
situation?
What might be the belief?
Right, the belief might be it'snot safe for me to do something
that's going to upset someoneelse, or how I feel is not as
important as how other peoplefeel.
And then it's saying well, isthat really true?
And if not, why?
Right To be able to give thatbelief a greater context or a
(08:39):
more objective lens, to kind ofanalyze the situation from.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yes, definitely, and I I imagine that, as leaders, a
lot of these moments becausethere's so many different people
, dynamics happening andinterpersonal communications and
relationships that a lot ofthese moments you have, you're
like why am I reacting this wayto feedback, to a task being
done to me, like there's so manydifferent moments where you
(09:06):
subconsciously have thesereactions.
How do you help maneuverthrough those as you become more
self-aware and observe?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think the first step is acknowledging that your
emotion is not a fact, and eventhat your thoughts are not a
fact, because, again, right, ifwe don't take the time to
consider it, it feels like afact.
Right, I feel this way and thisfeeling is predicated on the
truth, and I think, when westart to get curious about it,
(09:38):
it takes a big weight off of ourshoulders to understand that
our emotional response tosomething is not necessarily the
truth, it's just based on aninterpretation that we have
programmed.
And I think even that, forpeople, is really freeing,
because then it opens up thedoor for us to interpret it
differently, even just toembrace that there's another
potential interpretation.
(09:58):
Right, like, I've receivedconstructive feedback and I feel
so angry and offended.
And why?
Why do I feel that way?
Well, because I need to beperfect to be good enough.
But is that really true from myadult self, when I look at the
situation like is that what Iwould tell someone else that I
(10:18):
love?
That you have to be perfect oryou're not?
No, of course not, because ashumans, we're flawed and it's
normal to, and you know what thefeedback is going to be a great
opportunity for growth for me,but I think it's opening the
door to have those reframingconversations with ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, when you have those reframing conversations,
sometimes you're like a lot ofback and forth.
Like in my brain I'm like thisconversation is just going way
too long.
Like in my brain I'm like thisconversation is just going way
too long.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, I guess what is a situation that you've seen
either regularly among people orlike maybe your clients, that
are like here's how theseconversations kind of play out
and here's how to be the bestversion of yourself or who you
want to be, based on what yourmindset could be.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So I would say one that I see a lot with leaders
that's a common challenge is ifthey're in a position where
their values, right, and whatthey believe is most important
in their heart of hearts doesn'talign with their leadership's
values and what's important tothem, and that can cause a lot
of inner turmoil, right, Becauseit's like, well, I truly
(11:26):
believe this, this is the impactI want to have.
Yet I'm being negativelyimpacted by this and the irony
is, when we get fixated on theleaders and that misalignment
and the frustrations with howthey're acting and the way
they're doing things, it pullsus out of alignment with our own
values.
we end up angry and frustratedand annoyed and we're not able
(11:47):
to show up as our true selves,right?
So like sometimes I'll use theanalogy because that one's so
common Like, sometimes I'll usethe analogy of like, if you
think of work as a garden, right, and it's like a garden has
flowers and a garden has weeds,and we can become really fixated
on the weeds and we want to getrid of all the weeds and we
(12:07):
want it to be a weedless gardenand the weeds are a threat.
So now we're fixated on it andwe're staring and we're waiting
for, like, we're waiting forthem to come up from the ground,
but we're ignoring the flowersand therefore the flowers die
because we're not planting theseeds, we're not caring for
those seeds, and that's thewhole point of having a garden
anyways, right?
So the weeds are inevitable.
(12:29):
It's not that we should ignorethem.
I think it's understanding.
You can't weed the sacrifice ofplanting the seeds and caring
for the flowers and finding thatbalance, cause I think that
happens a lot, right.
We get like we are fixated onthose weeds.
We become like master weednoticers and finding ways to get
(12:49):
rid of them, but at the expense.
When we're only focused on thatis pretty great personally and
then also within the team.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And I love that analogy, first off because it's
very visible of how you candescribe it.
And then when it comes tovalues.
I think when we have thoseinterpersonal conversations or
the relationships with ourleaders, it's hard to figure out
why you are so frustrated withthem and I do agree, a lot of
times it is with the values notnecessarily aligning.
(13:21):
So you do fixate on, like, well, this is just frustrating, and
then you focus on thefrustrations and nothing else
will get done because you'relike but I don't understand why
they're not focused on a, weshould be focused on B.
And I have found, throughconversations of like, through
my clients and through my peersand colleagues, that this is
where turmoil really builds inan organization, where it's like
(13:45):
well, why I don't think weshould focus on this, we should
be focusing on this.
Um, and the way that you'redescribing it, it kind of
emphasizes like where we do havecontrol in a way, because
there's a lot of things that asleaders, as employees, we don't
have control over, and that'sokay.
As leaders, as employees, wedon't have control over, and
(14:08):
that's okay.
So where can we focus ourcontrol, would you say.
That also is a part of themindset mentality type thing.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Massive, massive right.
Like it is so easy to getcaught up in all of the things
we can't control.
Yet the emotion that comes frombeing in that, especially if
it's something that we don'tagree with, is anxiety and
frustration and overwhelm orhelplessness, because I'm
focused on something that Icannot affect change to right
and I'm focusing on how it'simpacting me.
(14:34):
I think part of it isunderstanding again the brain
from an evolutionary perspective.
Like it's designed to keep ussafe and alive, so it's
naturally inclined to look forthe dangers and the threats.
Right, oh, this doesn't align,but understanding like that's an
evolutionary thing, becauseonce upon a time, like there
might be a tiger behind thattree and your life really
(14:54):
depended on that.
But now, in the current spaceand time, yes, like their values
may not align, but it's notthreatening my actual life.
And is it the best place for meto put my time and energy?
Because I cannot complain andproblem solve at the same time,
I cannot be in survival and becreative at the same time.
(15:16):
Like I am either choosing tofire this part of my brain or
this one and there is a cost oneither side, right?
So I think again this notion ofunderstanding at the end of the
day, our brain is a cost oneither side, right?
So I think again this notion ofunderstanding at the end of the
day, our brain is a biologicalfunction of the body, right?
It is not.
Um, it is not this end-allbe-all that knows all of the
truths, and I think, much likeyou know, our stomach, our
(15:38):
digestive system, is abiological function of the body.
What we eat impacts how ourstomach functions, what we think
, what we reinforce, how wedirect our focus and energy and
attention over time, just howour brain functions in the same
way, right, and I think it'sjust helping people understand
that and look at the brain inthat way.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, and I can't remember where I've heard this,
but when we receive feedback,it's the same reaction where
it's like a tiger attacking us.
So our body's like in avisceral reaction of like oh my
gosh, constructive feedback, Imight die.
And until you recognize thatthat's what your body's feeling,
you're like, oh why am I sooverwhelmed?
(16:19):
And I'm so like just cringingright now.
So, once you're aware of it,you're able to maneuver through
it and be like okay, well, letme actually listen to this with
my creative mind, myopen-mindedness, like I'm, my
life is actually fine, I'm.
This isn't a tiger, this isjust.
I had a mistype in my emailLike, yeah, right, and uh, just
(16:42):
creating that mindset so thatyou can be your best self.
Yeah, I'd love to go back to thesports part of your story a
little bit, because I'd becurious to hear how the mindset,
how you saw it, impact theplayers that you were either
coaching or working with, andhow that kind of plays into what
(17:02):
you do today, because Iremember basketball in high
school and I was not thegreatest player coaching or
working with and how that kindof plays into what you do today,
because, uh, I rememberbasketball in high school and I
was not the greatest player atall, um, but like I remember it
was like it's all aboutvisualization.
Michael Jordan visualized allhis games and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And so I will say, like that's something I wish I
could have done better in highschool.
But as we go into, this mindsetis a great thing, yeah, but
kind of like with yourbackground, what did you see was
possible and why is thatimportant?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, great question.
I think a few things likevisualization.
Yes, absolutely, and it's.
It's funny because often in thework that I do with clients, I
do liken it to the sportstraining and coaching and
athletics, because essentiallywhat we're doing is we're
training the brain.
Right, we're trying to workwith the brain to strengthen it,
to make it more resilient, toallow it to be more
(17:53):
self-supportive, to juststrengthen it in productive ways
.
I would say.
Even what we've just talked on,like that was a huge part of the
mental performance in sport isfocusing on what you can control
versus what you can't.
Right, I can't control theopposition, I can't control the
referees, I can't controlparents in the stands or even,
to an extent, what my coachessay, whether they play me or not
(18:16):
, like I can control whathappens the next shift when my
skates hit the ice and I want mymind to be where my feet are.
And I think that as well, right, when we talk about performance
, our brain tends to drift intothe past or travel into the
future quite often Because,again, it's trying to call on
past examples to predict what'sgoing to happen in the future
(18:38):
for our own safety andwell-being sometimes well,
sometimes not well and then it'strying to anticipate what's
going to happen because it wantsus to be prepared.
But one of the phrases I loveis this notion of, like you know
, depression is when our mind isin the past, anxiety is when
our mind is in the future andpeace is found in the present
moment.
So it's not that our mindshouldn't go there, but I think
(19:01):
too often our minds live there.
So if you talk about sports,right, I think the athletes who
maybe made a mistake and came tothe bench and were ruminating
on the mistake and beatingthemselves up about the mistake
and, frustrated about themistake, they would go out for
the next shift and, guess what?
They would make more mistakesversus the ones who were able to
just move on and play the game,shift by shift or play by play.
(19:24):
I think there's a lot of powerto that, and even as a leader or
as an entrepreneur, like beingwhere my feet are.
But so of course, we take timeout to strategically plan and we
have the vision board and wepicture ourselves doing hard
things and having success, butultimately, to be in the present
moment, I think take someconscious, deliberate effort to
(19:45):
connect ourselves with that andkeep ourselves connected to it.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So how, what are some tactics to kind of keep us
connected to the present, sothat we can stay where our feet
are?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean and again this iswith athletes, but also in the
professional side the notion ofsetting intention statements.
So, as I'm going into doingsomething right, being really
deliberate, so rather thanletting my brain take me where I
want to, providing my brainsome guidance, right and clarity
on what it is that I want tofocus on, where it is I want to
(20:18):
improve.
I think giving ourself thatguidance is really helpful.
And then, in terms of incompetition, one of the big
things was something likeanchoring, which is.
It could be a word, it could besome sort of movement.
Sometimes people would write aword or like, put a dot on their
racket or their, theirequipment or their arm and doing
(20:38):
like again this positivevisualization of things going
well, right, me performing well,me being confident, and
connecting it with that visualor that word as a way that in
the moment, right, if somethinggoes sideways, something to
connect me back to the presentmoment and to the positive frame
of mind.
Because I think one of thebiggest challenges right Is is
(20:59):
again going back to like if Iget constructive feedback and my
response is like, oh my God,I'm going to die, like the heart
rate elevates right, like wehave this physiological response
.
I think part of it is havingrealistic expectations for
ourselves, because mindsetcoaching is not about never
feeling upset or afraid orscared.
Like we can't change thatautomatic like the automatic
(21:20):
reaction that we havephysiologically, but there's
that space to choose ourresponse.
Once we acknowledge it Rightand I think that's the challenge
is okay.
My heart rate's elevated and Ican either like jump on this
wave and ride it out and itbecomes a big thing, or I can
let this wave pass and thenchoose how I want to respond to
(21:42):
the situation.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And I love hearing about how sports players do it,
kind of ground themselves inthat way, because I imagine the
same technique can be appliedfor the feedback session where
it's like this is my word, likecommit or humble or whatever
that word could be, or if it's adot on your notebook that you
(22:04):
reflect on, like this is whatmakes me grow.
Bringing that back to yourselfmakes you take a pause to
reflect on who you want to be.
What is the goal of who I wantto be?
Does this fit into that goal?
Does this fit that persona ofthat future, that intention of
who I want to be?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, Well, and I think that's a huge thing too,
right, and again with leaders oranyone, I think we can get
really caught up in thesacrifice of the important for
the urgent right, like that'sgood.
So-and-so.
Everybody needs all of thisstuff, and that's where I think
something like anchoring isgreat, because it's our way of
making sure that we stay pluggedin to the important right, and
we don't get caught up down apath that's actually taking us
(22:47):
away from that and actually.
So.
Two other things actually fromthe world of sports.
I did a presentation the otherweek and there were a few things
that resonated with people.
I think the other thing fromthe world of sports, when we
talk about mindset, is thisnotion of failure being the
starting point.
When we talk about mindset, isthis notion of, like failure
being the starting point.
I think when we'reentrepreneurs or when we're
(23:08):
leaders or we're new to theposition, again talking about
realistic expectations, like weput a lot of pressure on
ourselves to have all of theanswers, figure out all the
solutions, solve all of theproblems, and I think having
that unrealistic expectationoften hurts us more than helps
us, because it puts us right inthis survival mode where our
mental, our emotional and ourmental resources are limited,
(23:32):
Like they're cut off.
Whereas if I stay in curiosityand I stay realistic with my
expectations and I look atsomething going wrong not as a
reflection of my failure butlike an inevitable part of
growing in the role, I can staycurious.
So my mind stays open, myemotions stay open.
I'm going to have access tomore of that creativity and
(23:53):
innovation to solve the problems.
And you know, when I started asport much like you I'm sure
like the first time I stepped onthe ice I fell and then I got
up and then I fell and then Igot up and then I fell, and then
I got up and then I fell like,and it's, there's a humility
that comes with understanding,Like we're all crap at something
until we practice enough andlearn enough to get
(24:13):
progressively better over time,and I think that's really
important.
Um, the other one is the notionof the warmup and a cool down,
which, again, as a leader, Iknow there's a lot of leaders in
like the back to back meetingsall day.
They get out of bed.
What do they do?
And not even out of bed, theygrab this right.
(24:34):
Oh, all these emails, oh, I gotto get back to these people At
the end of the day again on thephone looking through things.
And if you think about anathlete in terms of their
performance, if they were neverto warm up or cool down, what
would it do to their performanceversus the role that a warm up
and cool down plays?
Yeah, Like I'm curious, fromyour perspective, what do you
(24:57):
see as the value of having kindof that mental warm up and that
mental cool down to start yourday and end your day?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I love all of this and I keep talking about the
things I love, but I think thisis so applicable for leaders and
supervisors as they go throughit.
One talking about failure, Ithink as humans, even we try to
be perfect and we're also likewell, this is my goal, I'm
already going to be good at it,and then you forget that you
actually have to like fail everyonce in a while in order to
become better.
Like failing is a step in theright direction.
(25:29):
But we don't like that feelingof failure, so we're like well,
nevermind, maybe I'm just notgood at it.
And if you give up too quickly,then you don't end up actually
growing upon yourself andleadership.
We don't think like people whoare in leaders or supervisory
roles or even those that arejust project I mean not just,
(25:50):
but project managing there's alot of failure that goes along
with it, because every situationis unique, every dynamic is
unique.
You go through the day to dayand you try to do the best that
you can, which is how you groundyourself, but you're going to
inevitably make mistakes, makepeople mad, send out the wrong
email, like there's just a lotof things that, no matter how
(26:13):
hard you try, you're going tomake mistakes, and so it's
understanding the human part ofit and how, as humans, we're
going to fail and just bouncingback from that in some way shape
or form.
And then, when it comes to warmup and cool down, I love that
you mentioned that.
I never thought about that as aleader, but I wonder if
applying that mentality would begood to prevent burnout as we
(26:38):
are seeing this.
And the reason I also find itinteresting is because this
almost has nothing to do withwhat we're talking about.
It has everything to do withwhat we're talking about.
I am following this Broadwayactress on Instagram and so she
talks about her warm-ups beforethe show and I was like that
makes sense.
Like you need to warm up yourvoice, your body, all the things
, but then, while she's takingoff all of her makeup, all of
(27:01):
her costume stuff, she's talkingabout her cool-down.
I was like I never even.
I just thought they were donelike cooling down, stretching,
whatever, but with your voice,like she's literally cooling
down her voice.
So if we're applying this insports, we're applying this to
ways that we're using our bodyand our mind.
Leadership should be a part ofthat.
(27:22):
Managing, working, just workingin general should be part of
that.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, because ultimately, regardless of the
field, we're talking aboutperformance, right, we're
talking about how do I optimizeand sustain my performance.
So, sports, of course, theperformative part is a little
more noticeable and evident interms of the physical.
But as a leader like I am taskedwith performing in my role as a
leader, right, and I think Imean that one in particular is
(27:51):
really resonated with me,because, like, if an athlete did
not warm up to prepare, likementally and physically right,
they're stepping in, they'regoing to be more prone to injury
.
Right, like, mentally, it'sgoing to take them the first
part of the actual competitionto get themselves going.
And then, without the cool downas well, right, like we, when
we don't cool down our body, ourbody doesn't shut off, and we
(28:13):
see that a lot with leaders too.
Right, like, if I don't have anend to my day, I can bring my
work frustrations and just mytrain of thought being fixated
on work into home and that cancause issues like personally and
interrelationship wise with,like, family.
So I think there's a lot ofbenefit to looking to do that
and I think that's the neatthing about sports is that it
(28:35):
really is about optimizingperformance.
Like, how do we take the humanmind and body and make it as
effective and efficient aspossible?
Yet in the world of work wedon't really think about that
right.
We don't think like how do Itake this employee?
and actually promote and supporttheir human performance in the
(28:55):
role.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, and it's interesting that you go, that
you went that way, because I'dbe curious as a leader like you
see other people like how do youmaximize your team's
performance?
How do you help them become thebest version of themselves and
create the space in which theyfeel like they can warm up, they
can cool down, they can fail,have the psychological safety in
that space to feel like theycan make mistakes and grow from
(29:18):
that?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah Well, and it's fascinating you say that because
I think again in the world ofsports, coaches will think about
that for their athletes, butthey're not necessarily thinking
about it for themselves.
And there's a cost on that right, because as the leader, you
really are setting the tone,like you're not just words, but
your actions and the way you'reshowing up really impacts the
team's behavior, and I thinkthere's more needed support for
(29:43):
that right.
So not just how do you optimizethe athletes, but how do you
optimize your own performance asa coach and actually understand
the importance of that?
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And in the world that we're in today and I'll say
this speaking as a militarymember there's a big dynamic
where it's first to be in theoffice, last to leave, like
leaders eat last, which isthere's part of that.
That's very true.
But also, when you set thattone, sometimes the people that
you lead see that they see thatyou're putting so much effort
(30:12):
into this and they think thatthat expectation resides with
them.
Now, what if we shifted that,talked about the cool up or the
warmup, the cool down, cool up,uh, the warmup, cool down.
They saw that in the morningyou had set aside time to work
out, to really look at your day,create that white space so that
you can be strategic andintentional about how you're
(30:34):
approaching each of the actionsfor the day, with those meetings
and with the emails that you'resetting, and then at the end of
the day you're doing a cooldown where it's, you're talking
with everyone, seeing howeveryone did, getting updates,
putting that in your to-do listand getting ready for the next
day.
Like, imagine what a world thatwould create for the team that
you lead by setting that example.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, absolutely Incredibly powerful Right, and I
think you can't underestimatethe impact it would have on your
own sustainability, because, Imean, you can be the greatest
leader in the world.
But again, we're running off ofa human mind, we're running off
of a certain level of capacityand energy, and most of us
invest solely in things thatdrain our energy and we're not
(31:17):
making a conscious effort toinvest in things that maybe
replenish it right At the end ofthe day like we're a human
being, you know like we needrest, we need recovery in order
to sustain our performance, andthat's why burnout is so rampant
because people just aren'ttaking the time that they need.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Not like it's a luxury to have, your performance
is being negatively impacted bynot doing this Taking care of
yourself, making sure that yourcup is filled so that you can
give to others and then thatsets a tone.
It's a trickle effect.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, big time, big time.
Well, and I think that's acertain brand of leader too that
we haven't really discussed.
But the leader that's likereally does care about the team
and it's incrediblyself-sacrificial.
Again, leaders eat last.
Like they care about people andtheir wellbeing, they want them
to have the time and space theyneed, yet they're not taking it
(32:10):
themselves and I thinksometimes we underestimate like
our actions carry more weightthan our words.
So if I'm saying you know, takethe weekend, I don't want you to
and out of the kindness of myown heart, on a Saturday at 7pm,
like I'm sending an email orI'm doing whatever because I
want to inform people, they willfeel inclined to do the same.
(32:31):
Like I remember hearing on apodcast a while ago talking
about, like when you walk into aroom as a leader, like you're
kind of in a bear suit, you knowand you may not realize you're
in a bear suit, but like thereis a particular energy that
people pay attention to whatyou're doing right, like the
perception of threat or thepower that you carry in terms of
(32:53):
affecting change.
People pay more attention towhat it is you're doing and and
we can easily overlook- that.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
In addition to that, I love that the bear analogy
because, especially coming froma military mindset, the higher
in rank somebody is that entersthe room, I noticed that ideas
are taken.
I noticed that ideas are takenlike as go-dos.
So the power that you have inorder to, uh like, create action
(33:25):
that you didn't even think wasbeing created is very impactful
on the people that you lead.
So, understanding the powerthat you have with the words
that you say as you move intothese things, and just
understanding the role that thatcan play in your team's day to
day, um, and how much eitherchurn that'll create or
inspiration, and uh, go get herattitude.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, absolutely Great point.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So we've talked a lot about like different mindset
tools and resources that we canuse to kind of create that good
mindset it sounds like tostrengthen it, to make it better
.
But what happens if we don'ttake care of this mindset?
Like what happens if we just gothroughout our day to day and
(34:05):
just say, forget it, it's notworth it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Again, I would almost compare it like mental fitness
to physical fitness.
So if we don't care for ourphysical fitness by doing things
deliberately right tostrengthen our body or to
nourish our body, we can surviveand we can live.
But our mobility, our qualityof life and the potential and
(34:29):
possibilities for things isdecreased, right, the likelihood
of potentially contracting somesort of long-term disease or
ailment is increased.
So and I think this is thechallenge Like people can live
based on like that old operatingsystem, right, like I can
survive.
But I might be more susceptibleto feeling negative emotions,
(34:50):
I'm going to be less likely totake risks, I'm going to maybe
not pursue things that reallymatter to me, because it's
better to be safe than to befulfilled.
But we're not.
Again, it's kind of this battle,right, between the spiritual
component of humanity that'slike we're here for greater
purpose and an impact, and weaspire to achieve something
greater and have an impactgreater than ourselves and this
(35:13):
brain that wants to keep us safe.
So, again, from the mentalstandpoint, can we survive?
Yes, but we may face morelimitations, right, we may play
smaller and ultimately we mayhave more regret when it's all
said and done.
So is it possible?
Yes, and I think part of thechallenge too is understanding.
A lot of times we don't come toface with those costs until the
(35:37):
end, right like we get to thatpoint and we look back and like,
oh, I wish I did this or I wishI did that and so my thing is
like always trying to helppeople zoom out and understand,
because, I mean, the brain willalso make decisions in the
pursuit of short-term pleasureat the expense of long-term pain
.
Right, it wants to feel good now, and often what feels good is
(35:57):
what's familiar.
But I think helping clientsunderstand, yes, this feels good
now, but you have to understandthe whole picture long-term.
This is the cost associatedwith that.
And conversely, yeah, thismight feel a little
uncomfortable right now and youdon't want to do it, but you
know what, if you do it likerepeatedly, five years from now,
(36:17):
this is where you're going tobe and how freaking great is
that going to feel right.
So I think helping clientsunderstand the leveraging
component too of the pain andpleasure associations we have
with the different choices wemake.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, and when it comes to physicality and using
mindset, when it comes to sportsor challenging yourself
physically, you can feel and seethe differences as you create
those habits.
So you want to be a marathonrunner.
You start running and creatingthose distances and you can
physically feel that discomfortand you're like it's because I'm
(36:51):
running a mile more or it's hotout.
So you can kind of create thereasoning behind it and you're
like I just need to push pastthis uncomfortability because
that's my goal, that's who Iwant to be.
Is that marathon runner?
When it comes to your mindset,you don't see any of this.
You're like it's all internaland you're like am I actually
making progress?
(37:11):
I don't know, I guess I feelbetter internal and you're like
am I actually making progress?
I don't know, I guess I feelbetter, like that I was reacting
before and now I'm like beingproactive, so that feels good,
but like I don't know.
So it's hard to kind of see thedifference when you can be like
here's my medal for my marathon.
You don't really get a medalfor having a good mindset.
That's what I'm thinking aboutis the mindset, but I guess the
(37:35):
metal, if we're really like wewant to go something tangible is
like the calmness and the peace, like bringing it back to
earlier, like that peace thatyou feel, uh, whenever you kind
of stay in the present and staygrounded.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah Well, and I also think it's in the decisions we
make right.
So you're right.
I love that point, cause Ithink that's where a lot of
people struggle.
I think, if you're just makingthe decision to feel better,
like that's very vague, it'squalitative, how do we measure
it?
But this is where I think theother component of it is acting
our way into a new way ofthinking.
I think you know, to just wantto feel better isn't necessarily
(38:09):
enough.
I think we have to motivateourselves through setting
intentions to actually stepoutside of our comfort zone
mentally.
So if we're scared of doingsomething like, actually do the
darn thing to prove to yourselfand your brain like new proof
and evidence oh I did it and Ididn't die, and I'm actually
here and maybe I even enjoyed ita little bit, right.
So, like, if we're a leader,like it might be having a
(38:31):
difficult conversation withthing.
Right, like, if I want to getstronger, I don't want to just
(38:58):
say I want to be stronger, I'mgoing to be stronger, I'm strong
now, right, like.
It's like you have to go to thegym and get on the machine and
do the reps and you know what.
There's an inevitableresistance to doing that because
the brain has done somethingdifferent for a long time, and I
think that's part of it too.
A big part is, when you'retrying to affect change or do
(39:19):
things that the mind's pushingback on, is that that resistance
is inevitable.
It's not a sign that it's notgood for you or not right.
It's just unfamiliar.
And the only way to buildfamiliarity is through
repetition and action.
And the irony is the more youdo it, the more comfortable you
get with it.
Right, and when you think aboutit, over the course of our
lives, there's so many thingsthat we've all done for the
(39:41):
first time.
Like we went to school, we read, we walked.
Like we had a conversation withsomeone, we had our first job.
You know any skills that wehave now, once upon a time
started as nothing, and the waywe built that confidence was
through action.
So I think it's really takingactions to support those new
beliefs, not just saying, oh, Iwant this other thing, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Cause wanting and doing aren't the same thing.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
No, it would be nice, it would be easier.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
The brain would be so happy with that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, I want this Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Perfect.
So, as we're coming to the endof our conversation and the
audience and those that arelistening are just like, wow,
this is such good information,like I really want to tackle my
mindset and I'm going to be anew leader or manager or I'm
taking on this new project, whatis one step that they can take
towards creating that mindset tobe who they want to be?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Two things.
One, pick up the book Mindsetby Carol Dweck.
It's a great, just informativebook to start understanding,
right, how the mind functions,what's the difference between a
growth mindset and a fixedmindset.
But I would say if you'rereally looking to affect change,
the best thing you could do foryourself is to reach out to
someone to have thatconversation and again, I think
(41:02):
that's saying it from experience.
I knew that I wanted to makechanges but at the end of the
day we're subjective beings,right.
We just don't necessarilypossess the objectivity to
really understand and get atthose challenges on our own in a
box.
So for me, working with a coachis really what allowed me to
expand my perspective andunderstand some of my own
beliefs a bit better, and Ithink it's really freeing.
(41:25):
I think there's a lot of peoplethat put the weight to I don't
want to use the word fix, butlike to improve themselves all
on their own shoulders and theycan spend years picking up all
the books and trying to do allthe things, Whereas if you can
work with someone whounderstands and can kind of help
you see yourself in a differentlight, it can really expedite
the process.
You're not meant to growth isnot meant to happen alone.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, that's so true.
Especially with a community,you can see more of what's
possible, whether it's with acoach or a good set of
colleagues or mastermind groupor whatever that that setting
could be to, where you can kindof reflect upon, like, here's
where I want my mindset to goand here's what I'm doing, but
(42:08):
is that actually supporting meor not?
I love that you brought that up, because there's when we're too
close to the issue, it's hardto gain perspective on it.
So when you get those differentperspectives, um, and see, like
maybe something through theireyes instead because while
perception isn't reality, itdoes have a really big yeah, try
(42:32):
telling my brain, that yeah.
Well, I mean, that's a reallygood point.
You're like, well, I having aconversation, whatever its
feedback.
I said this.
They took it as this is thatperception, reality, how can I
be better to share what Iactually meant Be a better
communicator and so kind ofcreating that perspective and
(42:53):
zooming, zooming out the 5,000,50,000 foot level, whatever that
is, and getting that?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
yeah, always yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean listen like I'vestudied this stuff now for over
13, 14 years and I still workwith coaches because I know that
I can't get to the heart ofcertain things or I need help
reframing because at the end ofthe day, we're humans and the
way we see things we're quiteclosely tied to.
(43:18):
But I do think it's such a gifteven just to understand
conceptually right, that we arenot our thoughts, right, that
our emotions are not facts, andit can just create an
opportunity to start to choosedifferently and not feel like
we're kind of like prisoner towhatever we think and feel.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Our brain is there to protect us, but we have the
option to decide to grow.
Yes very well said.
Oh, awesome.
Well, thank you so much, mj.
I really enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm definitely personally gonnatake a lot of information for
my own self, and I hope that theaudience does too.
It was wonderful talking withyou.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into
it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me if you
would leave a review on ApplePodcasts or Spotify to help
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to
leadintoitco.
That's leadintoitco.
Thanks again.
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