49. The Power of Debriefing with Robert "Cujo" Teschner

What if the key to transforming your team’s performance wasn’t hiding in another leadership book—but came straight from the lessons learned in the cockpit of a fighter jet?

In this episode, I’m joined by Robert “Cujo” Teschner—former Air Force fighter pilot, leadership expert, and author of Debrief to Win. Cujo brings the heat (and the heart) in a conversation that challenges how we think about accountability, feedback, and real team growth.

We dig into why debriefing—the military kind—isn’t just a boring recap or a dreaded feedback session. It’s a high-impact, deeply human leadership practice that creates clarity, builds trust, and drives performance. The best part? It’s practical, repeatable, and doesn’t take hours to implement. In fact, the average military debrief lasts just 18 minutes—and can boost performance by up to 25%.

Cujo also shares how his journey from fighter pilot to leadership consultant (and cancer survivor) reshaped how he shows up—not just at work, but in life. His story is a powerful reminder that leadership isn’t just about checklists or standards—it’s about how we support the people around us when it matters most.

Whether you lead a team, manage projects, or just want to give better feedback, this episode will leave you with a powerful framework and a fresh perspective on what great leadership looks like—under pressure and beyond.

Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.

Excited to be with you!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to episode 49 of the Lead Into it
podcast.
Hey there, and welcome back toLead Into it, the podcast where
we dive into the messy,meaningful and sometimes
miraculous world of leadership.
I'm your host, sarah Greco, andtoday, buckle up, we're headed

(00:21):
into high-performance territorywith a guest who knows a thing
or two about precision, teamworkand learning from what didn't
go according to plan.
This episode's guest is RobertCujo Teschner, former Air Force
fighter pilot, leadership expertand author of the book
Debriefed to Win.
Cujo shares what the militarygets right about leadership and

(00:41):
why businesses and teamseverywhere need to borrow this
page from the fighter pilotplaybook.
We talk about the power ofdebriefing not as a boring
post-mortem or a dreadedfeedback sandwich, but as a game
changing tool for growth,clarity and connection.
Kuju also shares a pivotalmoment in his life that
completely transformed how heviews leadership, not just as a

(01:03):
skill but as a way of showing upfor the people who matter most.
If you've ever struggled withgiving feedback, leading with
authenticity or just figuringout how to help your team
actually learn from mistakes,this episode is for you.
Let's dive in Well.
Thank you, kujo, so much forcoming on the show.
I can't tell you how much Iappreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Sarah, thank you so much for having me on the show.
What an honor it is to be herewith you today.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Previously you'll have heard on the intro to this
podcast talking about a littlebit of your background and your
book, but I'd love to hear itfrom your perspective, If you
wouldn't mind, just giving kindof an overview of your military
journey leading you to where youare today.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Good Thank you for that.
Starts with dad.
Dad was a key part of mymilitary journey.
He was in the military intelofficer in Vietnam and then he
became a JAG officer, so got achance to see the attorney side
of the Air Force.
As a kid I got to go in andwatch dad as a prosecuting
attorney do his work and I lovethat.
I love being around the the AirForce.
As a kid I got to go in andwatch dad as a prosecuting
attorney do his work and I lovedthat.

(02:06):
I loved being around the wholeAir Force family really felt
connected to it.
So when he retired I think itwas right after I finished my
sophomore year in high school, Iwas disappointed in him and I
knew that I had to go andcontinue on with my family.
So that set me on the path tojoin the Air Force.
Got a chance to go to the AirForce Academy.
Got a chance to live mylifelong passion, which was to

(02:26):
fly airplanes and specificallypick fighter aircraft, and I was
a fighter pilot for most of mycareer.
Did some staff stuff experience.
Um, that informs what I wroteabout what it is that I love
doing these days, how it is thatwe've tried to team as a family

(02:48):
, and, and and so much more.
So that's, that's the career ina nutshell.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
And can you describe a little bit about what you do
today?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, these days I take, uh, what it is that we
used to do in the flying domainunpack it, repackage it, and and
teach how we can apply all ofthe principles that allow us to
team well in the flying domainunpack it, repackage it and
teach how we can apply all ofthe principles that allow us to
team well in thehigh-performance team world of,
specifically, fighter aviation.
My background no matter where weare, and we spend most of our
time working with businesses alldifferent shapes and sizes, but

(03:19):
occasionally get touch pointsback in the United States Air
Force and the Department ofDefense, and that's been, I
would say, Sarah, one of themost rewarding things that I've
had the chance to do.
Like, I came from a culturethat was, a certain way, learned
a ton, was taught how to leadwith all of that, and the places
where we now go as a team andteach don't have that benefit,

(03:41):
don't have the benefit of theresources that our federal
government does and don't havethat benefit.
Don't have the benefit of theresources that our federal
government does and don't havethe kinds of inherent training
every step along the way to helptheir leaders to be the best
leaders they can be.
So I found that our sharedbackground has been a very, very
incredibly useful one in thebusiness world.
And that's where I spend most ofmy time these days.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
It's so interesting that you came to that
realization and kind of saw theadvantage of sharing your
military background andspecifically we'll go into it
the power of debriefing, becauseI as an active duty went
reserve, did a few corporatelike nonprofit gigs and realized

(04:22):
how much leadership wasn'ttaught early enough.
And it's something that I'vebecome very passionate about in
the past couple of years, notbecause they were bad at
leadership, it was justsomething different and I think
that our military really has anintuition and instinct on how it
should be done and it's verypowerful to learn that way in

(04:42):
the corporate setting, indifferent aspects of your life,
and to apply it in that way.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
So true, and I tell you I mean not kind of the
academy, 20 years in uniform,spent a lot of that time, you
know, griping about this thatthe other, like we're really,
we're really good at you knowand we can talk anybody that's
listening to this could be likewell, you know, I worked for
this horrible leader and I can'tbelieve that you'd ever teach
anything that they did you knowanywhere else.

(05:08):
And it's true.
I mean there's a humanenterprise our military is, and
you know there's all kinds offolks at every level and some of
them are better than others atdoing all the things that you
and I are interested in.
I mean stunningly remarkableabout our Air Force, about our
military in general, is howpassionate we are and how
effective we are at instillingleadership principles from the

(05:30):
very beginning of our journey,starting in basic training, like
right there, we're all beinginculcated with leadership
skills.
We're all understanding what ittakes to team effectively.
We develop some degree ofempathy for how difficult it is
to lead in all kinds ofdisruption.
We don't maybe even realize howmuch we're being poured into,
starting at the very beginning,and it just keeps on getting
reinforced and reinforced andreinforced.

(05:51):
What it leads to is reallyyoung people taking on huge
amounts of responsibility andbeing okay with it.
I mean, just think of it.
It's like it is.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, it's very true.
We don't even think about it.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
No, I mean I was doing some interviews with some
of my teammates for some of ourclients.
So we're in this little thingI've got eight of us and kind of
going through and talking toall the folks about their
leadership journeys, and one ofthe questions that I've asked
that's been a little bitoff-putting, I think.
Every time that I've asked ishow old were you when you were
the wing commander or whateverelse?
You know and I that's not.

(06:25):
That's not something we usuallydo, but I'm asking that just so
that the business leader canget a sense of how young folks
are.
With you know, theresponsibility of running an
organization that may begeographically separated not
just, you know, in North America, like other continents and
thousands of people that areaffected by this.
It's pretty amazing.

(06:45):
You know where it is that somepeople are in this whole thing
and how young they are when theydo it.
So there's something to it andwe have invested heavily into
into leadership development inour military the department of
defense, number one investor inleadership development on the
planet.
So it would make sense that thatgood has come of that, even if
there's the occasional personthat we can point out and say
make sense that that good hascome of that, even if there's

(07:06):
the occasional person we canpoint out and say, oh, if
there's anything I've alsolearned, there's always the
people and their perspective andtheir story and their narrative
.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
So it's one of those things where it's like there's
good leaders, there's also goingto be bad leaders.
It's just kind of you have tohave your right with your left
hand okay, can I share one thingabout this real quick?

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, go for it.
You're asking all the questions, but one thing that comes to
mind.
I remember a friend of mine Iran into after he gave up wing
command and I complimented himbecause I was on a staff at the
time and I got a chance to hearabout the work that he was doing
and it was universally praisedand it was really.
He stood out as being anexceptional wing commander and

(07:47):
when I got a chance to intersectwith him again post command, I
first of all highlighted that tohim.
I said you know,congratulations, kudos to you.
And and secondly, what, whatwould you say, like you know,
helped you to be so?
good at that that's a hard thingto do, and his response has
always stuck with me.
He said, cujo, it's simple, Iwas a bad squadron commander,

(08:08):
and that was revealed to me whenI became a group commander and
I watched squadron commanderswho were working for me who were
so much better at doing what itwas that I had done so poorly.
And I learned from that and Iswore that I would never be as
bad as I once was and I wouldlearn from my subordinates how
to be better at what I'mcurrently doing.
And I took all that forward andbecame a better wing commander,

(08:28):
and I'm like what humility ittakes to acknowledge that and to
openly admit it too.
I thought that was prettyamazing.
Like we're always, we're alwaysthinking of you and I are
constantly thinking about, we'realways learning more about it,

(08:49):
we're passionate about it, andso we're never going to stop
doing that until the day thatwe're done doing everything
which is and you shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
You shouldn't.
It should be something that'sconsistently on your mind
because it's every aspect ofyour life.
And I love that story because Ibet the folks in his squadron
were like he was really the bestwing commander ever.
I think that also sayssomething about you can't always
trust somebody's reputation.

(09:16):
They are human, they willevolve, they probably will
become better.
But I think that also sharesthat anyone can become the best
version of themselves at anypoint in their journey and their
career and their lives and Ithink that, as somebody who
looks back, that's incredible tohear and he could share that

(09:37):
with everybody.
It also be like these are thethings I did as a squadron
commander that I would notrecommend.
That's right, 100%, and I thinkactually he did that, did as a
squadron commander that I wouldnot recommend.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's right 100% and I think actually he did that
openly as a wing commander,which probably only helped
everybody.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
That humility it creates so much.
So I'd love to go more intoyour book Debrief to Win and the
power of debriefing.
So I read it.
I understand the concept ofdebriefing, especially being in
the air force, but I'd love foryou to go into the concept a
little bit and kind of whatinspired you to write the book.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Excellent.
Okay, we'll start with whatinspired it and then I'll uh,
I'll outline the fundamentalconcept and, um, I guess there
was a time period when I was outat Nellis, when I was at the
weapons school and I was giventhe responsibility for kind of
expanding the application ofdebrief.

(10:36):
You know, as an F-15 guy, formost of my career F-15s we did
debriefs our way.
We were very intentional aboutnever changing how it?
is, we did our thing.
We're very siloed in ourapplication and I knew other
disciplines did debriefs alittle bit differently.
They did it their way and itwas my given task when I came

(10:59):
back to the weapons school as aninstructor to standardize
debriefing across the board,which I was not at all excited
about.
I'm like this is not fun.
There's nothing cool about this.
Why me?
I lamented my timing.
I was actually kind of bummed,but because of a degree of
imposter syndrome, I wasn'tgoing to challenge this either.
So I'm like all right, I needto do it.

(11:20):
So I take this thing on.
And while I'm working on thestandardization of really
vocabulary and methodology ofall the different teams that do
them, I was confronted with thefact that in business, this
thing didn't exist.
I was lamenting, reallylamenting, the state of

(11:42):
leadership development.
I was lamenting the fracturethat they were experiencing and
the team that they were on.
I'm like, well, you know, thestuff that we're doing here is
really about building teams thatwin, no matter what.
It's really about learning as ateam to be a better team
tomorrow.
And that was the point.

(12:06):
It was all the way back in 2004where I said someday we ought
to take this out and help outspecifically small business
because that's the backbone ofour economy to understand how to
lead and team more effectively.
So the origin was I got thisburden I wasn't excited about in
the midst of working on thisthing that I wasn't excited
about.
Somebody highlights theirchallenges.
I'm like, well, this thing thatI'm not excited about is
actually probably a solution.
And then, as I start to learnabout all this, I start getting

(12:30):
much more excited and then,ironically, I turn my life
upside down and make this myprimary life's focus is teaching
this stuff, and I'm so gratefulthat my timing was what it was.
And here we are.
And so I wrote the book in aneffort to support businesses in
building stronger teams andhelping businesses to accelerate

(12:51):
leadership development and torethink accountability the way
that we do in thehigh-performance team world,
which is to say thataccountability does not need to
be and, in fact, probablysurvives best when it's not
punitive in nature, which is thenatural disposition
Accountability is usuallybackwards-looking and
blame-oriented probably survivesbest when it's not punitive in
nature, which is the naturaldisposition.
Accountability is usuallybackwards looking and blame
oriented, but it serves us somuch better if we can harness

(13:12):
its upside and we can use it tolearn as a team, and every team
needs to be in a posture oflearning, nothing static.
That's the reason why you and Iare never going to stop digging
into what it takes to leadeffectively, because leadership
is situational, not static, andso you've got to be in a
constant learning posture inorder to navigate disruptions.
And, of all the things that Icould say about Debrief to Win

(13:32):
is that it was designed to helpus all to learn better as a team
, and if we can do that, oh mygosh, those are the kinds of
teams you want to be on.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, it's all about .
I mean, you talked about thatsquadron commander becoming a
wing commander and reflecting onthe feedback that he himself
received and saw, and so in away, he debriefed in a way and
took that information and madehimself a better person.
By getting feedback you becomebetter.
That's right, as long as youapply what you learned.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
And as long as what you're learning is correct.
I mean, if you think about itlike I'm constantly putting
leaders into little breakoutsessions and testing them in our
little simulations and watchingas they're giving feedback that
they actually aren't qualifiedto give to people who they're
crushing in the process ofgiving it, so like it is a

(14:22):
standard feature these days toput folks into that.
And then they ask them who hereis actually qualified to give
the feedback on this particularthing, and when we reflect on it
, nobody is.
And yet we did it.
So we've instinctively said yesto the challenge.
Yes, I will give feedback tothis person, and the person who
gets it oftentimes says thefeedback makes them feel worse,

(14:42):
not better, and it's not onlymaking them feel worse, not
better, but it's alsotechnically incorrect.
They got the wrong thing frompeople that weren't qualified to
give it, and we fall into thattrap so easily all the time.
So it has to.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
It has to be done correctly.
How do you get out of that trap, would be my question, because
what does it look like to do itcorrectly if you're not in the
arena, which is like I loveBrene Brown and that quote and
all that.
But I think this is a reallygood point, because it's hard to
figure out.
If you are in the arena to givethat feedback, what can it look

(15:15):
like to be correct?
But what if you're not in thearena?
What can you do to help support?

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, and the origin story to all of this?
Okay, the thing that's thattees us up effectively to
practice accountability isknowing what it is, that we're
being held to account for,having an established standard,
you know, clarifying whatsuccess is and what we find it's
just that's largely absent.
And so, well, one of the thingsthat, um, that's frustrating

(15:40):
for everybody at any level inany organization, is being told
when you're getting feedback,that there's always room for
improvement and that's why youdidn't get the top score.
I've actually come to learnthat that's a leadership cop-out
, it says I never even knew whatit would take to earn the top
score.
So now, finally, acknowledgingthat I don't know, sarah, how to
assess you, I'm going to saysomething fuzzy like there's

(16:02):
always room for improvement.
That's why I'm going to giveyou the nine out of 10,.
You know, keep on trying and inthe end you're unsatisfied.
I actually, if I'm honest withmyself, I'm unsatisfied, but the
get out of jail free card isthere's always room for
improvement.
Much better way is to set thestandard long before we ever
evaluate.
Help our teammates to meet orexceed said standard, reward

(16:23):
them for having done so or, ifthey've chosen to not even try
and to aim for lower than thehigh mark.
That also tells us a lot aboutwhat we need to know about this
particular teammate.
But most cases people you workwith on a daily basis they want
to meet or exceed and then, whenthey do so, setting a higher
bar the next time around.
That's a way to rapidly developskill sets while encouraging

(16:45):
people along the way thatthey've got what it takes to
become extraordinary Like thatto me works a lot better than
the carrot that you can neverget that's dangling out in front
of you.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
How simple of a concept that isn't employed
enough.
You can tell like on video.
I'm so passionate about thisbecause everyone's like I don't
understand why my individualcontributor isn't doing what
they need to and I'm like dothey do?
They know that they need to doit.
They're like, well, they shouldjust know that's part of the

(17:16):
job description.
I was like, just because it'spart of the job description
doesn't mean that they innatelyknow that this is the standard
and the expectation.
Sit them down, set theexpectation and then hold them
accountable to that expectation.
It's something very easy, butwhen they're not meeting, it,
then continue.
When I say it's easy, it's asimple concept, I don't mean

(17:36):
it's easy, I actually mean it's.
It's actually a verychallenging thing to do because
it is consistently holding aperson to a standard that you're
expecting them to meet and whenthey're not meeting them, you
also have to hold it into thatstandard.
Um, so it's not as easy thingto do.
It's something simple that canhelp you.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Well, and I tell you it works on both sides of the
equation extremely well.
If you and I are sitting downtogether and I'm trying to map
out a way to progress, you tobecome, you know, colonel,
whoever, and I'm showing you thesteps along the path that are
going to get you there, we'recrafting this together.
You're clear on expectations.
I'm clear that I've given youexpectations.

(18:14):
We understand that there'sclear expectations and it makes
the follow-on conversation ofnot having done what's necessary
so much easier, because thefacts are the facts and we know
what we signed up to do.
And it helps you because youunderstand what the, what the
steps are to progress andeverything is really good.
When we don't have that, we havethis fuzzy world that leads us
to, especially if we care,working very hard and oftentimes

(18:37):
being unsatisfied.
I have a dear friend who justretired early and had the chance
to really go far.
But one of the challenges thatthis individual had was being in
a position, being specificallyin a job where there was no
clarity of expectations given,and so they would work
oftentimes through the weekendtrying to craft the approach

(18:58):
that on Monday was shot downbecause it wasn't what the boss
wanted and the team's like areyou kidding me?
Like we've just giveneverything, you haven't given us
clarity, but yet now you'retelling that we didn't achieve
it.
Like it's impossible to workthat way and it leads to
frustration and burnout and anearly exit from an otherwise
amazing career, like totallyavoidable.
And you know we could put thatone squarely on on the leader

(19:20):
and like why would we do that toeach other?

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Well, and as if you have ever been in that position,
you know how frustrating it isyou can personally attest to
when you don't know what theexpectations are.
It is there's no direction inhow you can progress, and so
it's just the feeling offrustration, and you don't want
that for yourself and for others.
So we get a little bit easierfor everyone around you by just

(19:43):
setting the expectation.
And, as another reminder,expectations can change as long
as you verify that theexpectation has changed.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's also so, true, I mean, and being flexible to
those changes is part of what ittakes.
We always talk flexibility isthe key to air power, right,
okay so, but the starting pointis having something against
which to measure and to pivotfrom.
If we don't have that, thenanything's, I suppose, on the
table, anything's possible andit's your best guess as to what

(20:13):
the right thing is going to be.
And that's just an unsatisfyingplace to operate.
So the whole understanding ofaccountability is really set
with.
If we haven't planned correctly, we don't have the right to
practice accountability.
And planning as a leadershipfunction requires clarity of
expectations upfront, becauseyou need to know what it is that
you're aiming to achieve inorder to create the plan to

(20:35):
achieve it, and that all isbaked into practicing
accountability well.
So you know, debrief to Winreally is probably the third
part of a multi-part series.
First part is Plan to Win.
I just haven't taken the timeto write that book yet.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Part of the series.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
But the theory is valid in the workshops.
We really emphasize that.
You got a chance to see thatwhen I came down to the 33rd
wing a couple of years ago,which was so much fun.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, and I'd love for you to go into a little bit
more about the debriefingconcept and what that means,
because I think we went to theplan to win and you've set
expectations, but I guess itwould be now you're you executed
.
So what does the feedback looklike during a debrief?

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Excellent.
So, you know, you think aboutit like, like, what do we
struggle with so often?
And that is where everybody'sbusy.
We're constantly busy.
In the midst of being busy,constantly, we're just always
doing, doing, doing, doing,doing, acting, acting,
activating, doing, doing, doing.
And it's a frustratingexperience to constantly be
doing without learning.
And so the debrief experienceis all centered on learning as

(21:44):
much as we can from everythingthat we've done in order to have
a better iteration the nexttime.
And the debrief can best bedescribed as a means of team
learning.
We formally define it as theconstructive evaluation of the
quality of our decisions andassociated actions, measured
against the objectives that weset out to achieve.

(22:04):
So there's three components towhat a debrief is.
But if you were to just gobypass all the technical stuff,
it's a way that the team isstructured to learn regardless
of outcome, and no mission isdone until we've learned from it
.
And if you contrast thatapproach with the way that
things are oftentimes done,we're just running, doing, doing

(22:27):
, doing, doing, doing and yourealize that being somewhat
intentional is the recipe tohaving a much more fulfilling
experience and to beingconfident that we're going to go
forth and win, and you realizeit's worth taking the time to do
it.
And what's fascinating is howlittle time it takes to be able
to effectively debrief.

(22:47):
That for the uninitiated it maybe an hour expensive time to
learn some really valuablelessons that, when applied,
allow us to be confident thatwe're going to win tomorrow to
the folks who really know how todo it.
And there was a meta-analysisdone about a decade ago, two
researchers with no connectionto the armed forces of the

(23:10):
United States, tannenbaum andSarasoli.
They did a meta-analysis.
They studied the effectivenessof debriefs and in their
meta-analysis the averagedebrief length was 18 minutes,
which resulted in a 20% to 25%improvement.
So an expenditure of 18 minutesyielding a 20% to 25%
improvement in how things weredone is one of the most

(23:32):
exceptional uses of time.
And why wouldn't we?
Why wouldn't we spend our timethat way?
So the debrief is designed toefficiently and effectively help
us to learn, to be confidentthat tomorrow is going to be
better than today.
It's also an organic means ofresiliency.
You know, I think back on a lotof the missions that I led out
of Eglin Air Force Base inbeautiful Fort Walton Beach,

(23:54):
florida, back in the proverbialday, and they were stunning
disasters.
Like on my repertoire of thingsthat I've managed to accomplish,
I've managed to lose, like thebest of them, and it was
actually a little bitdisheartening for me as a young
lieutenant and captain, losingthe way that as spectacularly as
I did on my first assignment inthe 58th fighter squadron back

(24:16):
in the day.
But one of the features of everyone of those missions was I was
there with a bunch of peoplethat were intent on learning
from today's experience, and theability to bounce back quickly
was mission critical in thatworld.
You know, like if you can'tbounce back quickly, especially
in a combat unit, then you'resetting yourself up for disaster
, and so one of the mostimportant things that I ever

(24:38):
learned was how to, likephysically, you know, learn from
this thing and to change things, but also mentally bounce back
from this big challenge and buyinto the notion that things are
about to get a lot better.
That's going to, that's goingto serve me personally in my, in
my private life, uh, all over,and especially in the, you know,

(24:59):
primary reason why I pivoted tohow the military uh, and then
it was a stunningly wonderfulthing to have when you were
going down range into you know,a combat arena and uh and flying
missions, that that had prettysignificant consequences with
them, for sure.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
That is very interesting because during these
debriefs you do receive a lotof feedback, during which it
talks about your performance.
I guess my question would behow much of it was usually
negative, and then how did youfigure out how to bounce back
from that?

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Good, good.
I think I had one debrief thatstands out in my mind as
exceptionally horrible, wherethe team lead in question had a
really bad day, like a reallybad day, like an emotionally
intelligent day of non-existence, and used the debrief as an
outlet for frustration and anger.
And in 20 years, having onlyone of those experiences says a

(25:52):
lot about how well trained weare and not doing it that way.
Ok, so one example out of 20years in uniform, most of the
time the way that it looked, nomatter where I was, and every
stage of my evolution.
But I would concentrate againon my time both at Tyndall and
Eglin, when I was a lieutenantjust learning, I was told, even

(26:13):
on the heels of a failure Cujo,you did this right.
You did this right.
You did this right.
You did these three thingsright.
This is the one thing rightover here.
That was the issue today.
Any question in your mind aboutwhat needed to have happened
here and I typically, because itwas very clear given the
conversation that we had leadingup to the summary like no

(26:36):
questions, you know, sorry, Iunderstand what I should have
done, cool, any doubt about yourability to make that decision
differently tomorrow?
No, sir.
No, no doubt, excellent.
I also have zero doubts, saysmy instructor to me, about your
ability, kujo, to make the rightdecision.
So, man, go make the rightdecision tomorrow.
Tomorrow is going to beoutstanding.

(26:58):
And, by the way, sarah, you'relooking at somebody who went to
double secret probation when Iwas at Tyndall going through the
F-15B course.
I mean, I had a week that wasstunningly disastrous and it
almost led to my exit from thecareer path that I'd wanted to
be on.
This was my double secretprobation experience.

(27:20):
So here it is Okay.
So I come in on a Monday andI'm flying this profile two of
us against one enemy.
All the airplanes are the same,we're all flying F-15s and this
is the first time that we'regoing to practice the art of
pulling up to 9Gs whilecommunicating and shooting and

(27:40):
deconflicting from the wingmanhere, as we're all in the same
piece of sky.
So it's a pretty robustscenario and we go out there and
fly it and haven't experiencedanything like this in pilot
training, anything like this inthe F-15 course to date.
Come back and in the van goingback to the squadron, my
instructor, who's a mid-killerfrom Desert Storm, goes hey, man

(28:02):
, that was outstanding and he'sso excited.
Okay, he's like we just you dida great job today, and so I'm
like coming into the debrief.
I'm like, yes, we get into thedebrief.
He's looking at all the tapesand he stops right here.
He goes.
He goes dude, what happenedright here?
I'm like, well, that's where Ishoot the bad guy, and I was
feeling very good about it.
He's like you still think youshot the bad guy?

(28:25):
I'm like, well, yes, of course.
I mean, who else would I be?
Oh, no, and I realized that Ishot my flight lead.
And it wasn't until the debriefthat I was confronted with the
truth.
I was not used to all of thisinformation.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
And even there I didn't see that I had shot the
wrong person.
It was inconceivable that waseven possible.
And now it hits me and Sarah,the feeling was horrific, okay,
like if there had been a realmissile on board.
I mean, I can't even imaginewhat I've done.
So now, because I've shot myflight lead, I failed that ride,
okay, go in the next day.
So this is Tuesday now and I goout there to refly this thing

(29:02):
and I'm so amped up I haven'tslept at all because I cannot
believe what I've done and I'mfeeling sick Like you feel sick
to your stomach for multipledays.
So as soon as we start the veryfirst engagement on day two of
this horrific journey, I pulland immediately on my very first
break turn, my very firstattempt to maneuver, I hear the
thing saying overgy, overgy.

(29:23):
And I am one second into thismission and I've already broken
the airplane, which is anautomatic fail.
And two failures in the samephase of instruction means
you're on now.
Double secret, I call it that.
Like you're, you're in thisthing where you have to get
counseled and you got to go talkto the thing.
And then your, your name taglooks a different color because

(29:43):
you can only fly with certainpeople.
And actually I went to anelimination ride on Wednesday.
So Wednesday, my entire futureis about to come to a grinding
halt here if I don't pass.
And I made it through,obviously okay with the stuff
behind me, but it wasn't thebest week.
And then I stayed on doublesecret probation until I
finished.
What's amazing to me about everyone of those debriefs was how

(30:07):
kind and empathetic myinstructors were, how much they
understood where I was, how muchthey appreciated the pressure
that I was under, even theperson who I flew with.
And on the third day I had tofly with somebody from another
squadron so that they weren'tbiased and didn't have any
preconceived notions.
I mean all these horriblethings that you read about.
I've lived them all.
But they were so gracious andevery one of them said you can

(30:29):
do this thing.
And they didn't say it justbecause they were trying to be
nice.
They actually meant what theysaid.
Especially coming into thethird one, I mean the guy looks
at it he's like simple mistake.
Everybody makes it somewherealong their career Overdoing the
airplane totally understandable.
We can avoid that, like justdon't push it too hard today,

(31:07):
cooge, and you'll be fine.
And here we are.
And what I've found is that inso many other aren in the F-15
squadrons writ large any of thehigh performance organizations
that have harnessed the power ofthe debrief?

Speaker 1 (31:23):
it's the way that you want to do it because it's the
most human way to learn.
I mean, there's feedback whereit's like the feedback sandwich
and it's like good piece offeedback, bad piece of feedback,
good piece, like there's thattheory that's going around and
I've learned that that is notthe best way to do it.
It sounds like what you'velearned and continue to share is
there's a authenticity to thefeedback as well, as it's given

(31:46):
empathetically and with truthyes, and with all those things.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
when you can do those things, the while it still
would be hard to hear, itempowers you in a way to make
you better 100%, and you have tolook at what is the desired
outcome of this thing, and in somany different arenas, the
desired outcome of some sort offeedback is to reinforce the

(32:13):
relative power, delta, like youknow.
Do you know who I am here?
I'm in charge, right, I'm incharge, and I know everybody,
and I've got all the power andI'm going to make you feel that
delta as much as I can.
Some people harness that, forwhatever reasons, to the you
know, to the disappointment ofthe rest of the team, and that's
very, very sad.
Our approach is different.
We know that the people thatwe're going into combat with are

(32:36):
the most important teammatesthat we have right now, and we
have to be able to team verywell together in order to
confidently go into a disruptivespace where our enemies are
getting worse by the day.
They're studying us daily tofigure out how they're going to
win against us, and so if theyreveal something to us that we
weren't prepared for, we can'tjust sit back and be like, well,
I guess there's no hope, likewe got to really rebound here

(32:59):
and learn as fast as we can, andthe only way that we can learn
there is to learn every day, asfast and as best we can, and the
point of this is to reinforceeach other's strengths and to
build out the things that we'renot so good at, so that we can
be the best we can when we'reput to the test.
And again, that's an approachthat I think works the best.
And when you look at mechanismspeople use and they're used

(33:21):
many times because it's the bestwe've got, like asking the
questions what went well or whatdidn't, which I hate those
questions.
We'll come back to that here ina second.
Or the feedback sandwich ofSarah sarah um, I love the
glasses.
Uh, really appreciate the look.
What a beautiful background.
Um, you're doing horrible ineverything that you do with your
work, uh, and then the otherside of this thing uh, so are we

(33:44):
gonna you know, could I?
Could I encourage you to comejoin me for a coffee later today
?
It's on my treat, likeeverybody sees through that it's
fraudulent, the first and thethings.
Those are only there to allowme to attack you and to feel
good about it Because, like I've, said nice things around it.
Nobody appreciates that thedebrief is structured so that
the light is shined on the truth.

(34:04):
From the very get-go we say,okay, what was first of all?
What was the thing that we weretrying to do here?
What was the mission?
Very short summary.
What was the mission?
You the thing that we weretrying to do here.
What was the mission?
Very short summary.
What was the mission?
You know, offensive countererror could have been the
mission, whatever that meansGood.
What were the objectives?
How did we say that we weregoing to define success today?
And that's really important,because that's what we're
measuring against.

(34:24):
Why did we or did we notachieve our objectives?
And the third part of thisprocess is what was the plan
that we had?
Is what was the plan that wehad?
And we want to remind ourselveswhat it was that we both agreed
to coming into this, that wewere going to do.
That we thought was our bestchance for achieving our mission
objectives.
And then we're going to comparewhat we did with the plan and

(34:47):
we're going to focus on any ofthe deltas and this is the part
that's the big difference fromother versions of accountability
If the plan was indeed correctand we deviated from it and we
can't justify it.
Well then, probably that's on us.
There's learning that can begained from that Like why do we
deviate If the plan wasn'tcorrect and we followed it?

(35:07):
Well then we can identify thefact that we had a bad plan and
that was the reason why, and sowe can learn from this and build
a better plan, hopefully thenext time, revealing to
ourselves in our internaldeliberations why this thing
wasn't sufficient.
And if the plan was a bad planbut we deviated from it in order
to win this thing, because werecognized as we were executing
it that it was deficient, itgives us an opportunity to

(35:28):
celebrate that and to reinforcethat and to say great, pivot
midstream.
And if the plan was the rightplan and we followed it, we
could also come back and sayoutstanding job following the
plan.
I mean, there was times when wealmost got distracted.
There was times when we werelike, ooh, do we trust this
thing?
But we did and great job.
And so we give ourselves thecapacity to reward people for
the good things that they'redoing.

(35:50):
And fundamental human nature.
It doesn't matter what uniformwe're wearing.
People like to be told nice job.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yes, it's amazing how saying that can be so impactful
.
People who are listening areprobably a mixture of military
to corporate all the things, andyes, we spoke a lot about some
military stuff and like therewas some like airplane hand
gestures that were happening atone point, and that's totally

(36:18):
fine.
I think my question would benow is how does this translate
into business?
How does this translate intothe common day of being in an
office and not necessarilyflying a plane?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, the short answer is a team is a team is a
team, and the principles thatallow us to team effectively are
universally applicable, whichmeans that these things that we
figured out by spending billionsupon billions upon billions of
dollars so that we could buildteams that win in disruption,

(36:53):
they not only apply, they shouldbe universally practiced.
They aren't.
There's a huge gulf what we'recapable of in business in terms
of building effective teams andwhere we are, and so I'd say
that the onus is on us to getover the self-limiting belief of
we're not the military.
This isn't life or death.
These military things won'twork here.

(37:13):
And to give this thing a try, infact, in the minutes leading up
to today's podcast interview, Iwas busy teaching a group of
primarily leaders of softwareteams how to debrief to win, and
every single one of themacknowledged the gaps and the
lack of ability of the team tolearn as effectively as they're

(37:34):
capable of, because nobody'sever taught them how to do this
and how important it is to learnhow to plan correctly.
People that even think, cominginto one of our sessions, that
they're planning well, whenconfronted with what real
planning looks like, recognizeshow far they are.
And then, once we see the delta, we can fix it.
So long-winded way of saying,oh my gosh, we just need more of

(37:54):
it.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
And it's interesting to hear about this personally,
seeing all the different waysI've seen team building,
planning, strategiccommunication coming from public
affairs and just using this,it's making me laugh a little
bit.
But just using this to planmeetings, to do brief meetings,

(38:17):
I'm like wow, that wouldactually be really useful, just
like redirecting be like hey,was this on our agenda at the
beginning?
It wasn't, was it?
Why is it useful for us to talkabout?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Can I just share another quick story here?
Go for it, okay.
So, because we mentioned themeetings thing, I had an
experience a few years ago thatI think is pretty amazing.
I was working with a groupcivilian business leadership
team said that they were veryaccountable.
I asked them how often do youpractice accountability?
They said once a month.
Okay, once a month.
I said all right.

(38:51):
So we had a regularly scheduledmeeting the day after one of
these once a monthaccountability sessions and so
we had this follow-up meeting onZoom, just like this on Zoom,
and I asked the leadership teamof this company.
I said, hey, I understand youhad this accountability session,
the one that you have everymonth, yesterday.

(39:11):
Was it a success?
And it was a simple question.
It just yesterday.
Was it a success?
And it was a simple question.
It just says was it a success?
And I'm looking at all thesepeople and nobody's willing to
answer the question and I'm likehuh, leadership team.
Simple question yes, no, I meanit's done, it's happened.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
The silence is an answer in itself.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, of course it was, but I pushed them a little
bit, okay so.
So finally one of the people inthe thing says okay, cujo, I'll
buy.
Yes, it was a success, it'sokay, good, I'm glad.
Follow on question.
And they're like, oh no, theyroll their eyes.
I'm like why do you say that itwas a success?
And so the person uh, kind ofthinks for a second, eyes, go to

(39:52):
the top left corner of the Zoomwindow, comes back and says,
okay, well, I'd say it was asuccess.
So now they qualify, like Iwould say, as opposed to
somebody else here might say itdifferently I would say it was a
success because we started ontime, we covered all the agenda
items.
We went 42 minutes long becausewe had a really good discussion
at the end.

(40:12):
So, okay, thank you for that.
I appreciate that.
It's very cool.
You assess this as a successbecause you started on time,
covered the agenda, regardlessof whether that agenda was
worthwhile.
And you went long.
And remind me, how long didthis thing last?
And they confessed it was likesix hours.
They had the six-hour meetingthe day prior.
I said, okay, so that's thestandard, that's the bar here

(40:36):
Start on time, cover the thingand go along, and then because I
reframed that, which was alittle bit mean of me.
That's why we didn't want toanswer your question, right,
because we thought you might saysomething like that.
I'm like, all right, fair,that's fair.
And I figured that the lessonwas probably sufficient there.
We moved on, okay.
The reason why I highlight themis the next day, I got an
unsolicited email from thatleadership team and it had

(40:58):
nothing, no words, okay, like Ithink it was titled something
like for Cujo, all right, all itwas was screenshots of the next
year's meeting calendar.
Okay, and this was for all oftheir meetings, and they had
wiped out by my calculations andI'm a political science major,
so math in public is hard, butlike I'm willing to stand by

(41:21):
they eradicated 90% of theirmeetings.
Why?
They realized how much timethey were wasting doing things
that had no purpose, things thatserved no useful purpose, that
they couldn't even.
They couldn't even answer thesimple question of like, was it
a success?
They were just.
They were, as we oftentimes didin my previous life in the
military, just doing the thingthat the previous person did,

(41:43):
because that's what we always do, right, good, sorry for sorry
for the rant.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
No, I think it's an incredible to hear the different
ways of you were talking about,like them, clearing out
meetings, but I think I waslistening to the questions that
you were asking them, becauseit's I don't know if it was
unintentionally I feel like itwas intentionally you gave them
feedback by asking themquestions and they that silence

(42:13):
that they provided was theanswer, but also it gave them a
chance to think.
And so, when it comes tofeedback, I there was a few
questions that were asked duringyour pilot debriefs, your
flight debriefs, where it waslike what were you trying to do
here or what were you supposedto do here?
And I think those are powerfulquestions to ask during any sort
of feedback session, becauseyou get to understand their

(42:35):
intention, and the intentionbehind that accountability
meeting had good intent.
They were trying to do theright thing and it wasn't
anything that they were doingwrong.
It just can be done better.
That's right, and I think that'sa.
All those questions are justvery impactful and can provide
feedback that you didn't evenknow they needed, because

(42:57):
they're going to answer theirown questions Me, as a coach, I
see how powerful questions areUm, and to empower them to
figure out the answers on theirown is more impactful than you
telling them exactly what to doLike hey, you actually should
have made that an hour longmeeting.
You guys didn't need to talkthis long, this agenda is wrong
but instead you gave them allthe tools and the power to

(43:21):
figure it out on their own.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
And I attribute all of that to my flubs when I was
coming up.
I remember a debrief.
I was so proud of this.
I wrote about this in the book,but it's probably worth sharing
with your audience, especiallythose that aren't familiar with
these things.
I advocate for coming into thedebrief with childlike curiosity

(43:54):
, because I learned that lessonthe hard way and I go all the
way back to.
It was probably 2001.
Yeah, somewhere in thattimeframe.
And I'm flying this mission withan instructor at the weapons
school to see if I have what ittakes to be a student at the
weapons school.
So it's one of the most highpressure missions ever in my
life.
I really don't want to flubthis thing in my one shot.
I'm at Nellis.
I'm flying an actual airplaneat Nellis Air Force Base, the
home of the weapon school, andwe go out there and on the fifth

(44:15):
engagement against a currentand qualified weapon school
instructor, I end up winning.
I end up gunning my instructor,which is so hard to do at any
time, and especially there,against those people.
I couldn't believe it.
And we get to the debrief and Ispent 35 minutes telling them
all the different ways to notget gunned by Cujo and I'm so
proud of myself Like this is aglorious day, it's beautiful,

(44:37):
the sun's shining.
All I can think about is thisis a day.
I can't wait to go back andtell everybody how I dominated
and we finished my spiel and Iremember the instructor.
He's like all right, cooch.
Overall summary good briefing,decent in-flight execution.
Debrief was the part that waslacking, and specifically the

(44:58):
fifth engagement.
That's where we're going tofocus today and I'm like ah, you
prideful son of a gun, I get it.
It's hard getting gunned byCujo, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
And I was stunned, actually,that he was doing what he was
doing.
I was thinking he was goingdown the path of lack of
integrity.
Anyway, I'm going to find out.
He teaches me a very importantlesson that I've never forgotten

(45:18):
and I continue to perpetuate inliterally all that I do.
We've covered it multiple timestoday.
He said Cujo, he said Kujo, hegoes.
You know, pretty decentinstruction on how not to get
gunned by Kujo, he goes.
But I don't know, I don't knowthat that was actually where the
instruction should have gonetoday.
And he goes.
I feel like there was somerelevant facts missing.
I'm like, okay, well, whatrelevant facts.

(45:39):
In my mind.
I'm saying you know, like whatrelevant facts the fact that I
did gun you as much as I didwith the fact that you feel bad
about it right now Like whatrelevant fact are we missing?
And he's like so, kujo, whydon't we go back through the
question phase and maybe youshould dig into what's happening
in my cockpit?
And I'm like all right, Ireally don't understand what

(46:01):
you're doing here, but whatever.
So what questions should I haveasked then, mr Instructor?
And he's like, well, maybe askme what I'm seeing at about the
time that you're gunning me.
I'm like, all right, mrInstructor, what were you seeing
about the time that I wasgunning you?
He said, oh, thanks for asking,kujo, I see master caution
lights and I see a right enginefirelight.
And in that moment it justoccurs to me and all the joy

(46:24):
evaporates immediately I'd askthe wrong questions and I was
doing an analysis based upon thewrong set of facts.
This guy wasn't worried aboutme gunning him, he was worried
about whether he had an enginefire.
And I gunned a guy that wasn'teven paying attention to me and
I was feeling good about it, ohmy gosh.
And I realized that the qualityof my debrief was directly

(46:44):
proportional to the quality ofthe facts that I was assessing.
And the only way that I couldget the correct facts on the
table was to ask the rightquestions.
And I was doing a horrible jobof that at the time, and I was
fortunate that, despite my poorexecution, he still endorsed me
to go to the place, and Isuppose my penance was
eventually, when I came back asan instructor, taking over the

(47:07):
debrief course, to finally getgood at doing it.
And here we are today, so thatwhole path leads us to this
interview on your podcast.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
How beautiful is that .
And I mean it works because themoment that you know what
questions to ask is such apowerful thing to have, and
having those questions will onlymake you stronger.
That's right it will in alldifferent aspects, and I've
definitely learned thatthroughout the course of my

(47:37):
career and it's my favoritequestion is to ask what were you
trying to do?
And just to gain understandingof what they were trying to do.
Yes, there's so muchperspective in it, that's right
and.
I like that.
He was like well, what questionshould you have asked?
That's also a really greatquestion to ask, like what
question do you want to ask meright now?

Speaker 2 (47:56):
That's where the alarm bell started going off for
me.
I'm like oh, oh today may nothave been as good of a day as I
thought it was.
No-transcript the full truth.

(48:36):
And if the full truth revealsthat I am far distant from who
it is that I need to be, to bethe teammate that you all need
me to be, then I'm open to thatand I'm going to give my all to
correct this as fast as I can,because we're here, you know, as
a team, to be ready to go fly,fight and win.
And I think if we're clear onpurpose, then everything else,
everything else, follows suit.

(48:57):
And another another gap is thatwe lack purpose oftentimes at
the team level, not only for thethings that we do and invest
lots of time in, but also forwhy we exist as a team.
I cannot tell you how often Iask the question like, what's
your team purpose?
And I get as many differentanswers as I get people that I

(49:17):
ask the question of, or I get apurpose that's wildly incorrect,
like it's to make as much moneyas we can, which that's not
what we're talking about.
One of the things that you andI benefit from when you're
wearing a uniform, and when Iused to, was that our purpose
was very clear.
We drove meaning and impactfrom being ready to defend our

(49:38):
nation and that drove everything.
It wasn't the money, I mean, wewere willing to go live in
really bad circumstances infaraway lands doing really
dangerous stuff.
And it wasn't about the money.
There was something bigger atplay here.
That's usually testified towhen we swear or affirm the oath
of office, and so that's areally big deal Lacking in the

(50:00):
business space.
Oftentimes people say, well, wecan't get to that level of
purpose here, like it's not lifeor death, we're not doing
anything grandiose, and Ipassionately disagree.
In fact, I'll tell you.
Part of my journey to yourpodcast today involves retiring
early from the Air Force due tocolorectal cancer, leaving at a
time when I probably should havestayed being trapped in a

(50:22):
bathroom most of my waking andeven non-waking hours.
It was hard to find employment.
I eventually found my way intothe mortgage loan business.
So I was a mortgage loanofficer.
I went from a full bird colonelto trying to convince people
over the phone to trust me withall their finances and to allow
me to refinance their mortgageloans, and I was cold calling

(50:44):
lots of people, 100% commissionsalesperson, and it was a tough
pivot at a time when we wereworried about a recurrence of
colon cancer.
So that was hard and I worked inan environment where we were
told you know, go find a whaleand kill it and you know, if we
hit our sales goals, we're goingto go on a trip and the whale

(51:05):
in this question for theuninitiated is you know somebody
with a really expensive housebecause that's going to be a
much larger financial gain.
You're going to walk away withmore money from refinancing that
.
And we didn't have a realstrong sense of team, nice
people, everybody like reallyreally nice people.
But we didn't have the samedynamic that we enjoyed back in

(51:25):
the other thing and a lot ofbusiness leaders would say well,
you're not going to get thatkind of dynamic that you had in
the military with a reallycompelling purpose.
But what's interesting to meabout the mortgage loan journey
was that some of the mostrewarding work that I did was on
the loans that I got the leastamount of revenue from.
Like we had an elderly couplewho I think my take home my

(51:46):
paycheck from the loan that Iclosed was about 250 bucks.
Okay, and we've got five kidsand milk's expensive.
So 250 bucks was not going togo a long way towards covering
the mortgage and taking care ofthe kids.
But for that couple therefinance fundamentally changed

(52:06):
their economic outlook.
They went from being trappedfinancially.
They had zero discretionaryincome.
Every penny went towards payingthe bills and they were trapped
in their house.
So they could afford to go on adate night, they could afford
to buy a gift for a grandchild,they could afford to do some of
the things that they previouslycouldn't do.
And it took four and a halfmonths to get to that end state.
It was a ton of work for verylittle financial reward.

(52:29):
But we use the mortgage loan asan instrument to do something
transformational for this familyand I found purpose in that and
it's interesting the further wedig the places where you think
it would exist the least are theplaces where it's actually
strongest if we're open to itand if we're committed to then
achieving that purpose.
Why wouldn't we want to learnhow to do the work that we do

(52:50):
that much better?
Why wouldn't we then debrief towin always?

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Well, and what you said, if we're open to it,
opening yourself to a purposethat you didn't even know could
exist, is probably step one,because you're opening your
aperture, because you're openingyour aperture to what is
possible, and I think that it'sinspiring to hear how, as a
mortgage loan investor what wasthe title they used?

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Oh, I was just a mortgage loan officer, an MLO
Officer.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
And seeing the impact that you can have on a couple's
lives, they probably rememberyou for forever the fact that
you worked with them so hard tomake sure that they could live
their life, and isn't there?
I think there's a study outthat says that the generation
millennials any old, all thosethey're looking for purpose and
it's hard to find, um, if youdon't open your aperture to what

(53:45):
is possible for that purpose.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I even got I mean, beautiful reflection, sarah, I
was.
I got into an argument with aCEO in the midst of a
presentation, which is a veryawkward thing to do, but I
couldn't believe it.
You know he's like good job.
I agree with everything thatyou said today, except for this
purpose thing.
There's no way that you can getto purpose, and with my company
, with the things that we do,that you can get to purpose.

(54:07):
And with my company, with thethings that we do, I basically
got a group of people that arebeing paid minimum wage to do
whatever in the muck and there'sno way that this works there.
Now, it was a very awkwardexchange because I refused to
budge and it made the entirerest of the presentation equally
awkward and I couldn't wait toget out of there but

(54:28):
interestingly and stunningly, hehired me.
So I ended up going to work forthis CEO and doing some debrief
to windward.
What I found when I got to thecompany was that he was the only
person who didn't understandhow compelling of a purpose that
they had there, and the peoplethat he was sort of minimizing

(54:49):
were so fired up.
And I can't give all thedetails because it might
highlight who it is.
But I'm telling you, theyunderstood it and it drove them
and I agree, theoretically,conceptually, you'd be like, ah,
it'd be hard there, but itactually wasn't and they had
figured it out already.
And the only person I didn'tunderstand was the person who

(55:09):
ran the entire show, which isboth stunningly ironic and
actually really really sad.
But it's, I mean, if you had topick it, pick an option.
I suppose that's okay, becausethe people that needed it, they
had it.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
That's really funny, because I would expect the total
opposite.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Because I thought you were going to tell the
different story where it waslike if expect the total
opposite, that's right, becausethat's what you're going to tell
the different story where itwas like, if the CEO can't have
that, then their employeesdefinitely couldn't.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
So that's very interesting.
Yeah, it blew me away.
All right, it was justprofoundly stunningly amazing
and actually such a good thing,and they were right.
I mean, their purpose was justtruly brilliant.
So all that we needed to do isthen back brief the CEO.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
You're actually good.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
That's right.
On this point you're rocking it.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
You mentioned a little bit about your cancer
journey.
Can you dive into that a littlebit more and tell us kind of
how it impacted to where you'vecome to today?

Speaker 2 (56:04):
That's right.
Excellent question, sarah.
I appreciate you asking that mycareer was going very well in
the Air Force.
I was, sarah.
I appreciate you asking that mycareer was going very well in
the Air Force.
I was pretty young into thesquadron commander seat.
I went off to the National WarCollege, did very well there.
I was supposed to go toEuropean command for a year
touch and go which is kind ofunusual for a joint staff

(56:24):
assignment so I could come backand get back into the F-22
program and everything was goingexactly according to plan until
I woke from a colonoscopy to aGerman doctor who told me with a
tear in his eye that he found atumor growing in my lower colon
and he said he thought it hadbeen growing for a decade, which
was not the news that we werelooking forward to.

(56:47):
And as a result of two horrificGI surgeries, I found that I was
fully dysfunctional.
My body was totally broken.
I was trapped in a bathroom.
I couldn't do the things.
In fact, I was responsible fora really big program in Europe
that got international headlines.
My boss was General Breedlove,but I couldn't post the
resection surgeries actuallybrief him on program status even

(57:09):
for 15 minutes because my bodywas undependable.
So I decided to exit out and asI was dealing with the whole go
from a career that was on avery strong upward trajectory to
being on the phone, smiling anddialing and trying to convince
people to close their mortgageloans with me I decided to
debrief my own journey and whatI found was that and then the

(57:35):
doctor told me thought that thistumor had been growing for a
decade.
It tracked my experience.
I had indications a decade priorto my colonoscopy that my body
was not exactly healthy, but atthe time where maybe something
could have been done and I saythere's a very strong caveat on
the maybe because I was reallyyoung, I was 31 when the initial

(57:55):
symptoms came out I chose notto do anything about them.
I actually chose to avoidtalking to the flight surgeon.
The doctor avoided talking toanybody about this because I
didn't have the time to be sick.
I was 100% confident that mybody was going to recover from
whatever this thing was, becausethat was back in my
indestructible phase and,interestingly enough, I chose

(58:16):
not to communicate anythingabout what I was dealing with
with anybody.
I just kept all that to myself,ironically, at a time when I
was teaching how to teameffectively in the world of high
performance teams and, as I wasthinking about this, dealing
with the consequences of havingexited from the career that I
loved I mean, I really lovedbeing a fighter pilot, loved
flying those kinds of airplanes,I love being part of those

(58:38):
teams.
I love the teammates that I wasprivileged to work with it
occurred to me that I was theroot cause of my own failure and
I came to my wife in tears andI'm not a I'm not a tearful kind
of a person, typically I cameto her in tears and I apologized
to her for letting her down.
You know cause?
I made her instantaneously intoa single parent of four kids.

(59:00):
I couldn't be trusted to bewith them because when I went to
the bathroom it was forever andjust horrible, like everything
about life was just, was just soupside down.
And I told her in a moment ofextreme vulnerability that I was
the root cause of my failureand I attributed it to the lack
of teaming that I exhibited adecade prior.
And she came back and I met herhalfway through my military

(59:22):
journey.
She's not an Air Force kind of apresident Hates flying.
Actually, she's not an AirForce, kind of a president Hates
flying.
Actually, she's the one thatwouldn't accept my
self-reflections.
I mean she said no, no, no, no,no, no.
You can't do this.
First of all, you can't belooking backwards.
And she's the one that said andthis notion that you weren't

(59:45):
teaming effectively at home.
She goes though I think I knowwhere you're going with it.
She's like who does that?
Like who, who has this, thissort of official team oriented,
this intentional teamorientation at home?
She's like usually there's adivide.
You know, you do stuff at workand then you do what you do at
home, and there's this like sortof artificial divide.
She's like so for you to havehad that, it's like normal.

(01:00:05):
I think everybody wouldprobably have some version of
that.
In fact, you're veryintentional about leaving the
work stuff at work, so you'renot doing that at home.
And she said but in no way do Ithink you ever in a million
years would have thought thatsomething like this could have
happened to you.
And so therefore, you know,don't beat yourself up at all.
In fact, aren't you the personshe actually said to me?
She's like aren't you the onethat says this accountability

(01:00:27):
thing is supposed to be positiveand forward focused.
And I just remember beingstunned by that because
officially I was the subjectmatter expert for debriefs in
the Air Force for two and a halfyears.
This person who hates flying isnow throwing it back at me and
she's like isn't this thingsupposed to be positive and
about the future, and aren't wesupposed to be building towards
a better tomorrow?

(01:00:48):
And then she said why don't weLike, if you're saying that we
could intentionally team as afamily better than we're
currently teaming, why don't we?
And the opportunity here is youare still alive and you have
this great knowledge, thisexperience of doing this and
teaching it, so why wouldn't weuse this with our family, which

(01:01:14):
now has five kids, by the way?
And what I can tell you is isthat, of all the teams that I've
ever been on, my most importantone by far is my family team
and, interestingly, the bestwingman that I've ever had is a
woman who hates flying.
All right, scared Like, grabsmy arm and fits of like panic
every time there's turbulence.
But she got it.
She got it better than I did ata time when I was kind of a
little bit lost with all this,and so we've been very
intentional about building thisteam to be the best team it can

(01:01:35):
be, and, though I would neverhave scripted cancer to be part
of our journey, so much good hascome from it and we're a
stronger family as a result ofit, and I'm very, very grateful.
I mean part of that is the goodLord allows me to still be
alive today.
The other part of that is wedid intentionally learn from
this experience to have a bettertomorrow, and we're living it
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
That's incredible.
And it's incredible to hear howdebriefing in a workspace
military and then debriefing forpersonal life it's valuable.
And I think it's also valuableto note how important it is to
surround yourself with peoplewho are going to challenge you
even in your own ideals,somebody who understands what

(01:02:19):
your ideals are and is going tochallenge and question well,
didn't you say, it's actuallythis and to ground you in a way
that maybe you didn't know youneeded at the time 100%.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I'm so grateful, so grateful to my bride for for
walking me through that soeffectively and learn.
I learned from that, learnedfrom her how to be better at
this, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
As we come to the end of our conversation, the one, I
have two questions left, andone has to do with emerging
leaders.
This seems like a large topicfor probably a new manager
trying to figure out.
Hey, this is all really cool,how do I apply it in my
day-to-day work or with my team?
What is one step that I cantake in order to get closer to

(01:03:05):
that debrief, the power of thatdebrief Great can take in order
to get closer to that debrief,the power of that debrief, great
.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
So I was doing Q&A after a keynote here recently
and a young manager raised hishand and said hey, you know,
kudra, I'm about to go into myyearly feedback session with my
teammates, and what guidance andwhat counsel would you give me
before I do so?
I said okay.
I said first question what'sthe standard against which

(01:03:30):
you're measuring your teammatesin their yearly feedback?
And he's like well, what do youmean by that?
I'm like what I mean is what isthe criterion that you're
measuring them?
How are you using to evaluatetheir performance?
And he's like I mean, I reallydon't know.
I'm like so you're saying youdon't have a criterion that

(01:03:51):
you're measuring them against?
Like no, I'm like well, thatfriend is a problem.
So how are you going to measurethem against a non-existent
criteria?
And he's like well, shoot, Iguess.
I don't know.
I'm like so how does this thingwork?
He's like I guess it doesn't.
And so we revealed to eachother there that we were about a
year behind on what it's goingto take to be able to provide
effective feedback, and so wecommitted to let's how about

(01:04:14):
going into this next round,let's set the standards and
let's say, ok, let's use a fivepoint rating scale.
This was going to take for youto earn a five next year doing
this, this, this, this and this,and it's got to be done to this
level of sufficiency, andthat's going to be a five.
And what do you think about it?
Is this something that you cando?
And if the answer is yes, okay,good, let's build a plan to
achieve it, because I want youto knock this out of the park,

(01:04:36):
and this is what it would be fora four and for a three, and for
a two and for a one, so we'reall the need, but let's also be
clear that I'm going to lead youbetter going into next year,
and we're going to watch you andhelp you and help you to pick
yourself up as you've stumbledand fall along the way, because

(01:04:57):
it ain't going to be perfect,but my ambition for you is for
you to knock this thing out ofthe park, and if you're
committed to that, then let'smeet or exceed that expectation
next year and then let's raisethat.
That's how I would approachthis, and if that's the
philosophy that we have, thenthese debriefs are going to be
not just easy but joyful,because now we get to celebrate
those wins, and when you get tobe with a teammate who's on fire

(01:05:20):
with, like I did it, that's agreat place to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
It is, it's empowering.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
I mean again, sarah, a team is a team is a team, and
the only thing that's going toprevent us from adopting
high-performance team approaches, in whatever team that we're on
, is us.
It's like the self-limitingbelief that we can't do it.
And if we cave in and give into that and say it can't be done
, I guarantee you this much itwon't be.
And say it can't be done, Iguarantee you this much, it

(01:05:50):
won't be.
But to the optimists out therewho can see the possibilities,
they will do it because they'renot going to give into that
self-limiting belief.
And to all of those and Isuspect many of them tune into
you, here's to a brightertomorrow.
Courtesy of debriefing to wintoday.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Thank you so much, Kujo.
Where can folks find a littlebit more about you or reach out
to you?

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Yeah, brilliant.
Vmaxgroupllccom.
That's our company's VMAX group.
V-m-a-x-g-r-o-u-p-l-l-ccom.
That's our website.
There's a contact us there.
My team is very, veryresponsive and we're very happy
to connect with anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Awesome.
Well, thank you again forcoming on the show.
Learned a lot, a lot aboutaccountability and high
performance teams and reallylooking at that optimism and
seeing what's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Thank you so much, Sarah, for taking this time with
me.
I really appreciate it and Iappreciate you and the great
work that you're doing out there.
Keep on coaching them andleading them well in all that
you do, Sarah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Thank you so much, really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Yeah, feelings mutual .

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into
it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me if you
would leave a review on ApplePodcasts or Spotify to help
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to
leadintoitco.
That's leadintoitco.
Thanks again.