May 27, 2025 • 44 mins
What does real leadership look like when no one’s watching? In this episode, retired General Mike Minahan gets honest about the messy, meaningful, and deeply human side of command.
He shares the story behind his now-viral decision to schedule a mental health appointment as a four-star general—something he thought was just leading by example but turned out to be life-changing for himself and countless others. Years later, he’s still hearing from people who were inspired to finally ask for help.
We also talk about the role family played in shaping his leadership style, what it really takes to lead through resistance and uncertainty, and why his go-to leadership advice is as simple as it is profound: “Don’t suck.”
This conversation is a reminder that leadership isn’t about performance—it’s about showing up, especially when it’s hard. Whether you're leading a team, a mission, or just trying to lead your life with more intention, there’s something here for you.
Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.
Excited to be with you!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to episode 52 of the Lead Into it
podcast.
Welcome back to Lead Into it.
I'm your host, sarah Greco, andtoday we're diving into part
two of my conversation withretired General Mike Minahan,
former commander of Air MobilityCommand.
(00:20):
In part one, we explored hisleadership philosophy and his
early career experiences.
We talked about striving forexcellence, owning the outcome
and leading with attitude, butin this episode we go a little
deeper.
In part two, general Minahanopens up about the personal side
of leadership, starting withhis own mental health journey.
He shares why, as a four-stargeneral, he made a public
(00:41):
therapy appointment and how thatmoment became a turning point
in helping reduce the stigmaaround mental health in the
military.
We talk about the leadership oflegacy passed down from his
father and how the lessons helearned growing up shaped not
only his approach to command butto fatherhood, family and what
it really means to care for yourpeople.
We also explore what happensbehind the scenes in leadership
(01:02):
the gray areas, the humanmoments, the times that leaders
must show up with consistency,humility and courage, even when
it's hard, whether you're in aformal leadership role or simply
leading your own life withintention.
This conversation is a reminderthat leadership isn't about
perfection, it's about presence,purpose and people.
Let's jump into part two Now.
I'd love to go into kind ofyour heritage a little bit and I
(01:29):
mentioned to my dad that I wastalking to General Mike Minahan.
He goes oh my gosh, I workedfor Ken Minahan, he was great,
and he went on and on and let metell you he is so jealous I'm
doing this interview because allhe wants to do is talk to you.
It was hard to keep him out ofthis room and it was interesting
to hear his perspective as kindof a legacy when it comes to
(01:52):
Air Force, especially both of usbeing in the Air Force in the
levels that we're at.
Also hearing how you have afamily legacy in that manner as
well.
You have a family legacy inthat manner as well.
And, um, from what I could seeonline, your dad went up to NSA
two-star general.
Um, awesome, awesome career andpeople like my dad in the Intel
(02:13):
community really admired histype of leadership and what he
brought to the table and how heled teams and grew the in the
Intel community.
Um, can you speak to how thatkind of molded you as a kid to
want to join the Air Force andas a leader?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, he's awesome, he's still awesome.
He lives two blocks from me,which we talked about in the
warm-up, which is a treat for meto be so close.
You know I grew up loved.
I've got a younger brother twoyears younger than me.
I got a younger sister sevenyears younger me.
(02:51):
We grew up love and it's not abut, and with incredibly high,
tough standards.
You know we worked, we wereheld accountable, we were loved
aggressively.
Uh, there were no shortcuts tohard work.
(03:12):
There were no shortcuts todiscipline.
There was never a pass on goingback on your word.
If you said it, it was done.
Um, so I could not be moregrateful for what he did for me
and did for my kids too, as I'mthe pastor.
(03:39):
That's just dad Ken Minahan.
What I saw him as husband withmy mom just great, great team
with lots of communication,making tough decisions, being
normal.
I think people think that whenyou're generals that you get a
pass on the normal life issues.
(03:59):
You don't.
I didn't live in the house whenmy dad was a general.
The majority of my time wasLieutenant Minahan, captain
Minahan, major Minahan,lieutenant Colonel Ken Minahan,
not Colonel and General Minahan.
You know we ground through allthe things, just like every
other family does.
We ground through grandparents'passings.
We ground through not havingthe money to do certain things.
(04:22):
We ground through vacationsthat went well and others that
didn't.
We did all the normal stuff,you know, and to watch them as a
team lead us was really awesome.
So that's husband and dadcommand.
And then there's this creature,you know, that eventually
became the director of theNational Security Agency and you
(04:45):
know I watched my dad.
You know, which I think is themost important thing is be
genuine, you know.
Have a genuine care for thepeople around you, take the time
to listen, make, when they havean audience with you, that you
are completely focused on them.
You know it's all about missionand people and there's really
(05:11):
no separation of the two, youknow.
I know there's all the ACSE andSOS.
Hey man, it's mission andpeople All right.
And so I just think this youknow watching him, watching how
people treated this.
You know watching him watchinghow people treated him.
You know, when we ran into afamily at the BX, watch how he
(05:33):
treated people.
When we ran into a family,watch the human interactions,
the normal.
Are you approachable?
Do you put on airs?
Are you genuine?
Do you have the time?
Even when you don't have thetime, all those things I soaked
up like a sponge and then youknow, I think the you know,
(05:54):
probably you know what peopledon't see is that.
How do you, how do you handlewhen you don't do it right?
How do you handle when, whenthings aren't optimal, how do
you handle the times that areincredibly tough?
I mean, that's really where youknow the magnificence of what
my dad presents is, you know,not losing his cool, always
keeping his patience, alwaystaking the time to explain it,
(06:19):
taking on responsibility wheneven maybe it wasn't his fault,
you know, so that he couldcreate the conditions to move
forward both as an organizationas in individuals underneath,
but still maintain the highstandards and accountability and
all that.
You know all those are thingsthat my dad, I think, really
(06:39):
showed me how to do.
And then watching now you knowas the, you know the two old
dudes you know sitting in the VF.
You know the, the VA waitingroom, you know, even to watch
how interaction, like just thestory that your dad is so great,
I mean what a, what a, what aprecious gift by you relaying
(07:01):
that you know which somethingI'll relate to him tonight.
You know, seeing that thatcomes around and is sustained, I
mean, is really cool too.
So you know I've said this atevery change of command, I've
said this at every promotion myparents are my heroes.
I'm surrounded by amazingfamily, including the one that's
(07:22):
on the other side of this doorright now, and you know that's
what matters.
You know I have a brief that Iused to give where I had my
tombstone, michael A Minahan,1967 to X.
Hopefully it's a long ways away, but you know I want to be
graded as an A, as a dad and ahusband.
Okay, you know you guysdetermine what my grade is as an
(07:43):
airman, but that standard wasset by my, my pops, and, and
it's cool to be around them andbe close with them now.
So I think I answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
You did, you did and I.
When it comes to, I thinkthere's a legacy of leadership
that is kind of leads back towhat we're talking about when it
comes to responsibility andworthiness is, if you're a great
leader, you will be remembereddecades down the road and you
have an impact on people's livesthat you don't even realize you
(08:15):
have until you might never know, and that is the worthiness and
the responsibility of being aleader.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It's a great way.
A little bit of a nuance, Iwould say.
You know, I think that the bestleaders care about their unit's
legacy and not their own legacy.
Yes, and you know, that gift offeedback is so cool.
It's so cool when it happens,you know.
I'll give you an example.
(08:46):
I've shared this before, butit's a when I was the wing
commander at the 89th, there wasa suicide on the in the other
wing and there was a memorialservice on the flight line and I
went up to the commander of thesquadron after the service and
I and this isn't a story aboutme, but I just said hey brother,
(09:06):
keep the faith.
Man, you have got to keep.
You know.
I don't really remember what Isaid, but it probably wasn't
more than two minutes of.
You know.
You know a classic minute handhug and a.
You know, you know, keep thefaith, I'm here for you, type of
thing.
10 years later I have the email.
10 years later, I get an emailfrom him.
(09:27):
Sir, you won't remember me, but10 years ago you took me aside
on a flight line and you saidthe following things and I was
in a really dark place.
And here I am today, a ColonelSelect and I just wanted to say
thank you.
So, so, wow, how powerful isthat man but that?
(09:48):
But the point is not MikeMinahan, the point is you are
making positive impacts everyday that you never get feedback
on, you know.
So it's easy to focus on thethings that aren't going right.
It's emotional, it's scary,it's painful.
It's underlined in bold italicsred.
(10:11):
It's all things, but yourvictories are happening all the
time and you got to.
That's what.
When I say keep the faith,that's what I'm saying Keep the
faith, man.
Keep the faith that thepositives are out there
happening, because you may maynever get the feedback on it,
you know, but the feedback onthe opposite is always there.
Even though it's the minorityof what's happening, the
(10:34):
feedback is always.
The negative feedback is always, especially in today's day and
age with all the social mediastuff.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, and for that the minority isn't highlighted.
The minority of the positivesare the things that actually
aren't highlighted but mightactually be the bigger things.
It's the majority of thenegatives and the there, and
it's not good for anybody whenthat happens.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But this speaks to this command thing too.
You can't be scared of whatsocial media is going to say for
you.
I mean, this gets to the, youknow you got to lead.
You got to.
You know the four W's comingoff a little bit here.
Four W's you got to will thingsinto existence.
Okay, I mean, that's how hardit is.
Nobody Okay, I mean, that's howhard it is, nobody ever says
that's a great idea.
I'm going to help you All right, here's the money.
(11:27):
I've never been in a unit thathad enough money, enough time,
enough people.
But for the big change you gotto will it to existence.
You just got to wake up one dayand said damn it, this is going
(11:50):
to be in two years, in a yearand a half, in two weeks,
whatever the time frame is.
You got to wither the internalresistance and you got to
weather the personal andprofessional attacks and if you
can do those three W's then youcan win.
But each one of those takescourage.
How do you know you're right?
So I thought about this with mymemo.
You know this is part of whatwas relieved off of me three
days into it.
But, um, I thought I'm notcomparing myself to a Billy
(12:14):
Mitchell, or you know, when hewas being court-martialed, did
he sit in his room going?
Am I right?
Is this worth it?
And I think the answer is yes.
So those four w's really matterbecause all those require
courage, you know, and courageis something that needs to be
generated.
Okay, confidence is a piece ofit.
(12:35):
The team that the family, andteams that surround you, the
people that pick up the phoneand say I'm thinking about you,
man, you're right, keep thefaith, keep moving.
Um, you know, all those thingsmatter, so you can receive that,
but you can also give it.
Your dad gave my dad a gift.
With his comment, the ColonelSelect that sent me that email
gave me a gift, a gift.
(12:58):
So take advantage of those veryinfrequent times when you get
the gift and have it, build yourconfidence and your courage and
then give those intentionally.
Give those to others who needit, intentionally.
Give those to others who needit.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And I think a lot of what we're talking about is in
the Air Force.
We've used a lot resilience,resilience and all the things,
and I think there's a kind ofnegative connotation on it just
because it's been used so much.
But I do, I'm grateful to seethat the air force has embraced
a lot of mental healthtendencies, especially in the
past I would say three to fiveyears, Um, and I think that you
(13:37):
actually had a lot to contributeto it, because you did
something early on in your AMCcareer that I think showcased
how even high level leadershipneeds to take care of themselves
when it comes to mental health.
Can you describe a little bitof what that was and why you
decided to do it that way?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Certainly, certainly, I had this ability to make
myself make my life incrediblydramatic in January of 22 and 23
.
So the first rally that we didrallies my commander's call with
my wing commanders.
The first rally we did we had apanel of everybody that had
(14:15):
executed the evacuation out ofKabul.
So there was everything fromfly fix support to spouses on
the panel and it was apparent tome very clearly that there was
an enormous impact of thatmission that we had to take on
and deal with Right.
So I had some pros that I hiredto come into the command One's
(14:38):
name's Chief, anthony Brinkley,a retired command chief that I'm
fortunate enough to know fordecades, and then Dr Janelle
McCauley, and they were kind ofproviding some expert level.
In the room had all the wingcommanders, and so we're talking
about hey, what do we do?
(14:59):
How do we know?
Not a big barrier to get out ofresiliency.
I don't like the, I don't mindthe word resiliency but I try
not to use it.
I think you're right about theconnotations there.
But Chief Brinkley said this hegoes, minahan, if you think
it's so important, make a mentalhealth appointment and put it
on your calendar.
(15:19):
So you know, I came away fromthat going all right, chief, you
know, and it took me a while toget over it, you know.
So that was in November, youknow thought about it all.
December came into earlyJanuary, put the mental health
appointment on my calendar and Irealized only four people could
(15:39):
see my calendar.
So I went down to the awesomePA team and I said tweet it.
And you know that started in,you know.
You know I talked about theother three days.
This was like you know.
I know you don't think this,but I am shy in social media and
all the things, especially backthen I wasn't beat up like I
(16:01):
was and I, you know it was.
It was insane, the amount, youknow.
I don't know if you'd call itviral, but it just it exploded
big.
You know, I went to theappointment.
It actually went out before Iwent to the appointment.
I went, you know they tried togive me a special parking place,
bring me in the back of thehospital, all that things.
I parked in the front, I wentto the front door, I went to
(16:22):
that elevator, I walked to thepart of the hospital that nobody
likes to go to.
I sat in the waiting room withmy name tag and uniform on and
you know, I did the computeruptake, I did the verbal uptake,
I did all the things and thenwhat I found out is when I got
to the back.
I just had a conversation andthe way I describe it is what I
thought I was doing for myairman I wound up doing for me.
(16:43):
Okay, I thought this was just ademonstration through example,
but it turns out that whenyou've had some of the
experiences that I've had in thePentagon on 9-11, some of the
missions that I've had to dothat involved fatalities,
casualties, things like that,some of the responsibilities
that I've had, that there aresome things that we need to work
(17:05):
through.
When you're talking to a pilotwith PTSD okay, I didn't mean to
get it.
I'm also the strongest person Iknow.
And then I also know that Ihave sat on, I've stood on a
stage for decades saying it's asign of strength, not a sign of
weakness, to seek help.
But I could not possibly knowwhat that means until I took
(17:30):
that walk myself and did that.
I had no idea what it means togenerate that courage and go for
it, nor did I understand thepositive impact with just a
conversation that it could leaveso soon after.
So all that collision ofeverything I'm telling you right
now is it's important that weset the environment so that we
(17:52):
can eliminate stigma, lowerbarriers and increase access and
options.
That's what that did for me.
It turns out that what I wasdoing for airmen, I was also
doing for me.
Okay, I can be the strong I'mnot saying strongest person I
know in an arrogant way, but I'mjust telling you, bring it.
Okay, I'll, I will work my buttoff and I will keep going, and
(18:14):
keep going, and keep going, andkeep going, and you know whether
it's easy or hard isinsignificant, but I'm going to
do, I'm going to work my tailoff till I physically and
mentally can't do that, and I'venot reached that barrier yet.
Ok, and I'm not saying that tobe hierarchical.
However, that word is againstother people, so please don't
take this as an arrogantstatement, but I'm just telling
(18:36):
you that, if that you can alsobe someone like me who thinks
that of himself, and benefitfrom that awesome chat and
journey, ok, the hardest thingyou can do awesome chat and
journey Okay, the hardest thingyou can do is take the journey
by yourself.
So anybody out there that'sthinking about it is already
doing the hardest thing possiblealready.
(18:57):
So all we've done here eliminatestigma, lower barriers,
increase access and options,mind-body, craft on the same
level, three pillars of you, allequal, not one subservient to
the others.
But we always do body and craftno big deal.
Go to the doctor, go to the gym, go to training, all that
(19:19):
things, but we rarely thinkabout the mind part.
So that's all it is is bringingthat all together, and so let
me end with this Aboveeverything I've done, I still
get the most feedback from that.
Okay, everything from I'll giveyou.
Let me see if I can come upwith.
I'll come up with three stories.
The first story is I got anemail from a master sergeant I
(19:42):
used to work with, who is then achief, who said who sent me
just a note and said sir, I'mglad you did this.
This is something I've neededto do for 20 years that you
finally gave me the courage todo.
Data point one.
Data point two I'm at HickamAir Force Base being driven to
my lodging, and I walked aroundto get my bag out of the back
(20:07):
and the driver with a mask on, acivilian driver, said hey, sir,
and I looked over and he goesthat tweet was awesome.
It's exactly what I needed.
Okay, data point three I'm inlows, lows and I'm mooching for
(20:30):
my 10% discount, so I've got,like I don't know, 86 cents of
bolts that I'm buying.
I throw down my ID card and shelooks at it civilian obviously
and she goes hey, you're thatguy that did that tweet.
If someone had created thatenvironment while I was in, I'd
still be in.
(20:50):
So again, this isn't about me.
This is about leaders settingthe environment and just making
it appropriate for people to doall that.
It's a very delicate humanissue.
There is nothing harder on theplanet than this, and we can do
it and be strong warriors andalso take care of the mind, just
(21:11):
like we take care of the bodyand craft.
Did I answer your question?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yes, you answered it.
Plus, and I love the backgroundof the story A few things that
stick out to me is first, I lovethat the conversation with
Chief happened in November andthe appointment happened in
January, because I think it'simportant to recognize that time
that you decided to think aboutit and that it's okay to take
(21:38):
that time to think about it,because sometimes you need that
time in order to take that step.
And I commend you for decidingto showcase that and highlight
it.
And it's amazing because Iremember this tweet going out
and thinking this is theshortest tweet ever because of
public affairs, and I rememberthe AMCPA team drafting it up
(21:59):
and they were going back andforth on how they were like
working on it and it was there,went with the shortest phrase
and made sure it was approvedand all that.
So it was interesting to see howI knew it was happening at AMC
and I was at a different unit, Ithink in Charleston, when all
this happened and it was perfecttiming for the unit on the
(22:20):
ground to see it and for them tounderstand that if a highest
level general in our unit, amc,is saying that this is okay, why
can't we To the point where themental health office was
getting inundated, as far as Iunderstand, with calls to the
point where they ran out ofappointments because everyone
(22:42):
felt okay for them to do it.
And so there's a huge impactthat a short tweet can have, and
I think your littlest moments,or what might seem like your
littlest moments, have maybe thebiggest impact as leaders.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know, you just ignited a thought.
It's the, it's the couragepiece, Right?
So I'm, you know I'm not, I'mnot saying I'm courageous, OK,
but I do need to generatecourage and you know I've never.
It's really insightful that youbrought up that gap.
I mean, you know, sometimescourage needs to be generated
very quickly, Sometimes courageneeds to be generated with
(23:18):
others and sometimes couragejust needs to be generated
within, and you maybe have somemore time.
So I'm going to process thattonight as I think about it.
But I think it's a powerfulcomment, but I don't know the
right answer and the perfectanswer.
I don't know it.
I don't know what to say when Iwalk into the room or the house
(23:40):
of a spouse whose husband wasjust killed in my port.
I don't know what to say, Idon't know the perfect thing,
but I'm going to walk in thereand I'm going to do my best and
I'm going to be me and genuineand I'm not going to have an
agenda except for to comfort, dothe best I can to comfort her.
(24:01):
Now I don't know what to say toparents who come to a base for
a memorial service for their sonor daughter.
I don't know the perfect tweetto try to get out of the suicide
rates that we're in.
I don't know the perfectanything.
And so you know, the generationof courage to just step into the
(24:25):
situation, be genuine, be real,be there.
Be there, man, it's easy to tapout and say someone else do it.
It's easy to say, well, I'm notgoing to walk in the door right
now, I'm going to wait for herto settle down.
I mean, you know it's thatthose are easy things that
require no courage.
The hard things are to go intothe most intense human
(24:51):
situations that exist in ourlives.
Do your best, do your best andguess what?
If you mess it up, thenapologize and try better, you
know, and debrief and get to abetter one the next time.
So you know, humans aren'tperfect.
We talked about that already.
Your highest highs and yourlowest lows will all be about
(25:12):
human things, and so I thinkit's important that we do this.
But we also talk about thesethings.
You know this is what squadroncommander courses need to chat
about.
You know, think about this.
The squadron commander coursein AMC while I was there, is the
most important course we teach.
Most important course, I meanthe squadron, and we developed
(25:34):
it strong right.
I committed myself and myschedule to it.
The team that put it on, fromthe CAG to the staff, was
phenomenal.
We aggressively went afterthings in a different way.
We made sure all the spousesthat could get there could get
there.
We included the command team.
So the first sergeants and thesuperintendents I mean really
grew it in a pretty good place.
(25:55):
But one of the things they haveto do before they get to Scott
is they had to give me theircommand philosophy and you get
everything from a regurgitatedSOS paper, ACSC paper to the
most awesome PowerPoint slidesyou've ever seen, all the way to
(26:15):
a couple of handwrittensentences, and I'm good with all
that.
You know a couple ofhandwritten sentences and I'm
good with all that.
But but my point to them isnobody you lead cares about your
command philosophy.
They don't.
They don't care about thisbinder of stuff you gave me.
What they care about is how youput it into action.
What they care about is howconsistent you are with it.
(26:39):
What they care about is how youdo it when you're tired.
What they care about is how youdo it when you're pissed.
What they care about it is howyou do it when you're maybe
you're feeling your oats alittle bit and you're a little
arrogant.
What they care about is how youreact when maybe another squad
or another unit is doing betteror worse.
What they care about is whereyou're at when their grandfather
(27:01):
dies, their grandmother dies.
What they care about is whatcan they make their?
You know?
So it's.
This collision of humanness iswhere this command philosophy
needs to meet the reality ofbeing human.
And so you know.
You can't replicate that in ayou know a classroom for a week.
You can't replicate that, evena classroom for a week.
You can't replicate that evenwhen you're a DO or a vice wing
(27:24):
commander.
I've been a vice wing commanderfor a year.
I was the deputy commander atPACOM for two years and as much
experience as I have being adeputy, I have no idea what it
feels like to be the commander.
I don't feel the weight, Idon't feel the tension.
(27:46):
I'm not in the room when theboss is mad and yelling at him
or happy and congratulating him.
So this weight of command andweight of supervision is a real
thing and the only way you canknow it is to have it, you know.
But so all that to say what wecan do in these instructions, in
this classroom and coaching andother things out there is.
(28:06):
We can talk about these thingsand prepare you and the future
leaders for that, because theseare, you know, to me these are
the essence of what makes a goodcommander or good command teams
and what makes ones that aren'tas good.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And it's so funny that you brought up not being
perfect.
Humans aren't perfect, becausethat's actually what I was going
to say earlier, but it's suchan important point to bring up
and I like that.
I love your perspective onbeing a commander because you're
correct, until you're in acommander role and I've never
been in a commander role, so Idon't even know you don't
understand what it takes to dothat and you are human in
(28:41):
yourself, but everyone aroundyou is also human and that's
what you were kind of talkingabout.
Is that interjection of all thehuman.
So how does your humanperspective interact with your
airman's human perspective?
Does it clash?
Does it kind of go together?
Does it mesh?
And a lot of times it won't.
Sometimes it will and then it'smagic, but you don't really pay
(29:03):
attention to that it's.
You pay attention to the timeswhen it doesn't.
The human, the humanimperfection, when it doesn't go
well.
That's what you focus on andthat's when the hardest parts
happen in leadership and commandand in all of those different
things.
And if you understand if you itsounds like what you're saying
is if you ground yourself inyour command philosophy, then
(29:24):
you understand how to kind ofbuild yourself and your
leadership skills to be okaywhen you have your human moments
, which is fine to have thosemoments.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I think you're.
You're right.
I mean, you know, withexperience you gain, you know,
you gain a, you know, a broadertoolkit if you will, you know,
and what you can rely on toshape how you go in.
You know, and you know.
The other thing is you can'toverthink it, you know.
You know I learned a lot as awing commander doing discipline
(29:56):
issues Right, discipline issuesright, and I was lucky enough as
a squadron commander of someonewho led me through that.
But it's the.
When people are receivingdiscipline, you know the
emotions are very high, you know, and so someone might laugh
that's getting in trouble andthe easy response would be what
the F is so funny?
You know where it mightactually be.
(30:16):
Their brain is so overloaded atthe point that you know that
there's just things.
So you know that's probably apretty crude example, but you
know, but it speaks to the.
You know the imperfection ofwhat's going on is.
And then you know you graduallyget enough experience and
(30:37):
enough reps where you can kindof have a pretty good idea of
how you want to go in and whatthe outcomes might be, and you
also might be completely caughtby surprise, but at least you're
prepared to be caught bysurprise and that gives you a
skill set that a lot of peopledon't have, and the only way to
get it is to get it.
I mean, that's part of the deal.
So you know, as wing commanderMinahan, you know to take in
(30:58):
that staff around you, aroundyou and the people that might be
you someday, and to say, hey,listen, let me just tell you how
that went and how it could havegone better, and have people
come along with you so that theycan watch and see before they
have to do.
Those are part of what I wouldcall the phenomenal supervision
in commanders.
(31:19):
Are you trying to grow?
The next you, or the better youis a better way to say it.
Right, are you?
What are you doing beyond thenormal stuff, beyond the awards
index, beyond the recognition,beyond the OPRs, eprs or
whatever we call them now,beyond you know, the normal
stuff?
Are you taking the time to todevelop somebody that wants to
(31:42):
be you?
Not inappropriately, not tooearly, but it's like you know.
Are you?
Are you?
Are you bringing them in andgiving them a peek behind the
curtain?
How'd you think that went?
It went great.
Well, I don't think it wentgreat.
Let me tell you why that onereally caught me off guard or
this one you know this one was,you know could have been really
(32:02):
good, I don't know, but do yougo out of your way to to coach
the people that come in behindyou know the?
Uh?
I think coaching is a word weneed to use more than mentor.
Um will to win.
Better at handling bad is whatwe need to use instead of
resilience.
Those things matter andintentionally doing that even
(32:23):
when you're super busy,especially when you're in the
command level, are incrediblyimportant.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
The earlier that you can bring people into
behind-the-curtain kind ofscenes and full understanding.
It gives them a perspectivethat they probably wouldn't know
either.
So, even if it's, it's justnice to have that perspective,
because they it's always behindthe door, right, something like
that's always behind a door andthey're like well, what's
(32:50):
happened?
That must've been awful.
They came out crying, they cameout super mad, but maybe what
you saw was just actually, we'rejust holding you accountable
for something that you shouldhave done and you're upset about
you making a mistake.
So bringing people behind thatgives them a perspective of okay
(33:12):
, this is what accountabilitylooks like, feedback looks like,
and then the expectation isdifferent in a different manner,
as a leader and as the personwho's being supervised too,
because you want to be heldaccountable in your job and
making sure that you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
Did you ever sit in one of thesquadron commander courses?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Okay, there's a slide .
I mean it's me, so it's notgoing to be there anymore.
But my favorite block was I gotan hour block on decisions that
I had to make as a commanderand there was everything from
people to flying to disciplineissues and stuff.
But but the beauty of thosestories is there's no right or
wrong answer.
I mean, you know and this way Idescribe it you know, nobody
(33:50):
gets paid to stop on a red lightand go on a green light.
My dog can do that.
Nobody gets paid to go on greenand stop on red.
We get paid to negotiate yellowlights as commanders and
supervisors.
You know, very rarely is theissue so clear that it's just a
yes or a no.
(34:10):
It's normally a yes, it depends,or a no, it depends.
And so this yellow light, youknow, has a lot of you know it's
a horrific analogy, I get youknow.
Did you see it turn yellow fromgreen and therefore you have an
idea of how much time you gotto get through the intersection?
Or were you changing the radio,come up and it's yellow and you
have no idea whether it's aboutto hit red or whether you got
(34:32):
three or four more seconds.
You know.
So these, you know this abilityto operate in the gray, this
ability to operate in the gray,the ability to understand the
intent of the regs but thenapply them and with the context
needed, to move the unit and theindividual forward.
This is the essence of command.
I mean, there are stilldecisions I made as a squadron
(34:56):
commander or wing commanderwhere I go back.
I mean you could easily see itfrom the other direction.
And so the ones that I put inthe class are pretty, you know,
are pretty good, because we takevotes and we have discussions
and the spouses are always great.
But the intent is not for themto say, if that comes up, I'll
do it like Minahan did.
That's not it.
The intent is, again.
(35:16):
You know this is creating theenvironment where you can have
the right conversation thatguides you to the right decision
, and not just apply a yes or noand move on.
There's a book and this is partof the portfolio in the command
course too it's called MintUnder Stress.
It was written in 1945 by theflight surgeon of the Air Force
(35:40):
that did a survey of all flyingunits and they just wanted to
answer one question what made aunit combat effective?
And the answer is the commander.
And so I would broaden it, Iwould use more modern terms the
command team.
I would open it up, movingforward.
But commanders that establishedan environment where nobody
(36:05):
wanted to let each other down,those were successful Over ones
that were scared of the boss.
Squadrons that had commandersthat emphasized what is
important were ones that weresuccessful in combat.
Squadrons that had commandersthat de-emphasized the BS were
(36:28):
successful in combat.
So the command teams really havea lot of power here.
So I realize we're talkingspecifically now to a younger
group of commanders, right, butcan you make the main thing the
main thing?
Can you worry about what reallymatters?
And if you can, you know youcan create an environment where
(36:50):
they don't want to let eachother down or let the unit down,
honor the patch that's on theleft sleeve, then you know these
are the things you know thatreally go into the genuine style
, the UBU, all that other stuff.
You know that I think that canmake our team successful, but we
don't talk about that stuff atACSC and SOS and the normal
(37:14):
coaching and mentoring and stufflike that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That's where we need to go.
And it's true because there'sjust I feel like there's so much
we could talk about when itcomes to items like this, but
it's just realizing the impactthat a commander has.
I think that, ultimately,that's what it lies down to the
risk that you have to take,understanding the responsibility
that a commander has and whatyou need to do, the decisions
(37:42):
that you have to make on aday-to-day basis that could
impact person A, person B,mission A, mission B.
There's a lot of responsibilitywhen it comes to taking on a
role like that, and don't takeit lightly, but also realize
you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm reading.
I just read.
You're going to think I'm adork.
I just read the memoirs ofUlysses S Grant and I've got
about another day and I'll bedone with the memoirs of William
Tecumseh Sherman.
(38:17):
My goodness, those two memoirsare phenomenal.
I mean, first of all, theyspeak volumes to air mobility
command and the mission andlogistics and all that stuff.
I mean it's really good on thatstuff too.
But you're talking to twogenerals that were putting
thousands and thousands of liveson the field, you know
routinely, with horrific losses.
(38:37):
And you know these two.
I mean I never knew this tillthese memoirs, but you know
these were soldier soldiers.
You know these were sleep onthe ground with the troops guys.
These were move forward to thefront ends of the battlefield
soldiers.
These were understand, did Imake a march very quickly?
(38:58):
Do I have time to rest them?
You know these were so in tunedwith the average soldier.
You know that.
That you know this gets back toour talk on credibility and
worthiness and stuff like that.
I mean it's really and they're.
I mean these memoirs arewritten by them, thus the name,
clearly.
(39:19):
But you know so it's all theold-timey language but it's so
relevant for everything we'vetalked about today.
It's so relevant.
Why?
Because they were in with it.
They were fully in on themission.
They were fully in for theirsoldiers and their welfare.
They understood all that stuffand that's why they were
(39:39):
successful, unlike a lot of theCivil War.
General leadership.
But, what I'm telling you whenyou read this and I'm not giving
you homework assignment.
They're really, reallyenlightening and I really think
enlightening in a modern context.
I'll brag about it here onLinkedIn in a few weeks when I
finish the other one, but Iwould make this mandatory
(40:04):
reading.
I would put this on my readinglist if I was still had a
reading list that people caredabout, but it's it's not about
what it gets after everythingwe're talking about and and to
hear about the commanders thatthey, that they appointed, to
hear about who they relievedfrom command and why, you know,
(40:25):
really pertinent to thediscussion that we're having
today.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yeah, and it's all.
It seems like it all goes backto lean into the main thing.
What's the main thing as themission?
And the people.
So the job that you need to doand the people that you need to
take care of, and all of thesethings that we keep talking
about, the decisions I have tomake, mental health, the
leadership legacy all the thingsare leading back to the job and
(40:53):
the people.
I can't tell you how much Iappreciate your conversation and
everything that we talked abouttoday.
I can't wait for people tolisten.
I'd love to close with one morequestion, and that is if you
could leave any piece of advicefor the audience today.
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Okay, well, I got to go to my go-to.
Is that?
Okay, that's perfect.
Okay, don't suck.
That's it.
You know it's flippant.
I get that, you know.
(41:44):
Decide not to suck.
You know, be the commander youalways wanted, be the supervisor
.
You two commanders before me,and that placard was still under
the commander's message.
It said message from thecommander don't suck.
It is wonderfully simple andpure and so accurate Make a
decision that, no matter what,that your mission and your
airmen are going to succeed,okay.
(42:06):
And then do all the hard workand the pushups and the things
necessary to make it come true.
Do all the hard work, thepushups and the things necessary
to make them successful.
Do that.
Be bothered by that.
You know, be bothered by that.
And you know I, I realize it'sa little bit flippant.
You know, be bothered by that.
And you know I realize it's alittle bit flippant.
(42:26):
You know I'm going to write abook and I would say this
publicly.
Now I got to actually do it andthe title is going to be Don't
Suck.
I mean that, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
I look forward to the book.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I don't know Now.
I know Now I got to actually doit, but I don't know if anyone
will want to read it.
But the point is it's thatpowerful to me and that was a
rallying phrase for us.
But you know, and it's notmeant to be taken flippantly,
it's meant to say you know,really do this is important
business.
Really read the oath that youtook, whether you're officer
(42:56):
enlisted.
If you're enlisted, read theNCO creed and the senior NCO
creed and the chief's creed andthen really really grade
yourself.
If you're doing that, you know,when you think about all the
responsibilities of a commander,you know, really think about
and be bothered by those things,and a supervisor and a first
(43:16):
sergeant and a superintendent,all the things you know, I, I
really do, uh, say it's thatsimple.
So I, I, I apologize for thecrudeness of it, but I don't
apologize for, uh, for anythingelse about it.
It's, it's an amazing two wordphrase that you should make the
decision to be awesome with.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it, you don't
want your leader to suck.
And I mean, if you think aboutit, you don't want your leader
to suck, so why would you beokay with not being awesome?
Yep, I appreciate your timetoday and I'm sure the audience
is going to learn lots fromtoday's episode.
It was just really greatchatting with you.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, well, I'm here for you and your audience always
.
So you know I'm on LinkedIn.
Send me a note.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
And I'll put all these links.
I'll put links to the books andthe LinkedIn and any other
information that we might havetalked about in today's episode.
I'll put it in the show notesand thank you all again for
listening in.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Lead Into it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me If you
would leave a review on Applepodcast or Spotify to help
(44:24):
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to lead
into itco.
That's lead into itco.
Thanks again.
You're listening to episode 52 of the Lead Into it
podcast.
Welcome back to Lead Into it.
I'm your host, sarah Greco, andtoday we're diving into part
two of my conversation withretired General Mike Minahan,
former commander of Air MobilityCommand.
(00:20):
In part one, we explored hisleadership philosophy and his
early career experiences.
We talked about striving forexcellence, owning the outcome
and leading with attitude, butin this episode we go a little
deeper.
In part two, general Minahanopens up about the personal side
of leadership, starting withhis own mental health journey.
He shares why, as a four-stargeneral, he made a public
(00:41):
therapy appointment and how thatmoment became a turning point
in helping reduce the stigmaaround mental health in the
military.
We talk about the leadership oflegacy passed down from his
father and how the lessons helearned growing up shaped not
only his approach to command butto fatherhood, family and what
it really means to care for yourpeople.
We also explore what happensbehind the scenes in leadership
(01:02):
the gray areas, the humanmoments, the times that leaders
must show up with consistency,humility and courage, even when
it's hard, whether you're in aformal leadership role or simply
leading your own life withintention.
This conversation is a reminderthat leadership isn't about
perfection, it's about presence,purpose and people.
Let's jump into part two Now.
I'd love to go into kind ofyour heritage a little bit and I
(01:29):
mentioned to my dad that I wastalking to General Mike Minahan.
He goes oh my gosh, I workedfor Ken Minahan, he was great,
and he went on and on and let metell you he is so jealous I'm
doing this interview because allhe wants to do is talk to you.
It was hard to keep him out ofthis room and it was interesting
to hear his perspective as kindof a legacy when it comes to
(01:52):
Air Force, especially both of usbeing in the Air Force in the
levels that we're at.
Also hearing how you have afamily legacy in that manner as
well.
You have a family legacy inthat manner as well.
And, um, from what I could seeonline, your dad went up to NSA
two-star general.
Um, awesome, awesome career andpeople like my dad in the Intel
(02:13):
community really admired histype of leadership and what he
brought to the table and how heled teams and grew the in the
Intel community.
Um, can you speak to how thatkind of molded you as a kid to
want to join the Air Force andas a leader?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, he's awesome, he's still awesome.
He lives two blocks from me,which we talked about in the
warm-up, which is a treat for meto be so close.
You know I grew up loved.
I've got a younger brother twoyears younger than me.
I got a younger sister sevenyears younger me.
(02:51):
We grew up love and it's not abut, and with incredibly high,
tough standards.
You know we worked, we wereheld accountable, we were loved
aggressively.
Uh, there were no shortcuts tohard work.
(03:12):
There were no shortcuts todiscipline.
There was never a pass on goingback on your word.
If you said it, it was done.
Um, so I could not be moregrateful for what he did for me
and did for my kids too, as I'mthe pastor.
(03:39):
That's just dad Ken Minahan.
What I saw him as husband withmy mom just great, great team
with lots of communication,making tough decisions, being
normal.
I think people think that whenyou're generals that you get a
pass on the normal life issues.
(03:59):
You don't.
I didn't live in the house whenmy dad was a general.
The majority of my time wasLieutenant Minahan, captain
Minahan, major Minahan,lieutenant Colonel Ken Minahan,
not Colonel and General Minahan.
You know we ground through allthe things, just like every
other family does.
We ground through grandparents'passings.
We ground through not havingthe money to do certain things.
(04:22):
We ground through vacationsthat went well and others that
didn't.
We did all the normal stuff,you know, and to watch them as a
team lead us was really awesome.
So that's husband and dadcommand.
And then there's this creature,you know, that eventually
became the director of theNational Security Agency and you
(04:45):
know I watched my dad.
You know, which I think is themost important thing is be
genuine, you know.
Have a genuine care for thepeople around you, take the time
to listen, make, when they havean audience with you, that you
are completely focused on them.
You know it's all about missionand people and there's really
(05:11):
no separation of the two, youknow.
I know there's all the ACSE andSOS.
Hey man, it's mission andpeople All right.
And so I just think this youknow watching him, watching how
people treated this.
You know watching him watchinghow people treated him.
You know, when we ran into afamily at the BX, watch how he
(05:33):
treated people.
When we ran into a family,watch the human interactions,
the normal.
Are you approachable?
Do you put on airs?
Are you genuine?
Do you have the time?
Even when you don't have thetime, all those things I soaked
up like a sponge and then youknow, I think the you know,
(05:54):
probably you know what peopledon't see is that.
How do you, how do you handlewhen you don't do it right?
How do you handle when, whenthings aren't optimal, how do
you handle the times that areincredibly tough?
I mean, that's really where youknow the magnificence of what
my dad presents is, you know,not losing his cool, always
keeping his patience, alwaystaking the time to explain it,
(06:19):
taking on responsibility wheneven maybe it wasn't his fault,
you know, so that he couldcreate the conditions to move
forward both as an organizationas in individuals underneath,
but still maintain the highstandards and accountability and
all that.
You know all those are thingsthat my dad, I think, really
(06:39):
showed me how to do.
And then watching now you knowas the, you know the two old
dudes you know sitting in the VF.
You know the, the VA waitingroom, you know, even to watch
how interaction, like just thestory that your dad is so great,
I mean what a, what a, what aprecious gift by you relaying
(07:01):
that you know which somethingI'll relate to him tonight.
You know, seeing that thatcomes around and is sustained, I
mean, is really cool too.
So you know I've said this atevery change of command, I've
said this at every promotion myparents are my heroes.
I'm surrounded by amazingfamily, including the one that's
(07:22):
on the other side of this doorright now, and you know that's
what matters.
You know I have a brief that Iused to give where I had my
tombstone, michael A Minahan,1967 to X.
Hopefully it's a long ways away, but you know I want to be
graded as an A, as a dad and ahusband.
Okay, you know you guysdetermine what my grade is as an
(07:43):
airman, but that standard wasset by my, my pops, and, and
it's cool to be around them andbe close with them now.
So I think I answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
You did, you did and I.
When it comes to, I thinkthere's a legacy of leadership
that is kind of leads back towhat we're talking about when it
comes to responsibility andworthiness is, if you're a great
leader, you will be remembereddecades down the road and you
have an impact on people's livesthat you don't even realize you
(08:15):
have until you might never know, and that is the worthiness and
the responsibility of being aleader.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It's a great way.
A little bit of a nuance, Iwould say.
You know, I think that the bestleaders care about their unit's
legacy and not their own legacy.
Yes, and you know, that gift offeedback is so cool.
It's so cool when it happens,you know.
I'll give you an example.
(08:46):
I've shared this before, butit's a when I was the wing
commander at the 89th, there wasa suicide on the in the other
wing and there was a memorialservice on the flight line and I
went up to the commander of thesquadron after the service and
I and this isn't a story aboutme, but I just said hey brother,
(09:06):
keep the faith.
Man, you have got to keep.
You know.
I don't really remember what Isaid, but it probably wasn't
more than two minutes of.
You know.
You know a classic minute handhug and a.
You know, you know, keep thefaith, I'm here for you, type of
thing.
10 years later I have the email.
10 years later, I get an emailfrom him.
(09:27):
Sir, you won't remember me, but10 years ago you took me aside
on a flight line and you saidthe following things and I was
in a really dark place.
And here I am today, a ColonelSelect and I just wanted to say
thank you.
So, so, wow, how powerful isthat man but that?
(09:48):
But the point is not MikeMinahan, the point is you are
making positive impacts everyday that you never get feedback
on, you know.
So it's easy to focus on thethings that aren't going right.
It's emotional, it's scary,it's painful.
It's underlined in bold italicsred.
(10:11):
It's all things, but yourvictories are happening all the
time and you got to.
That's what.
When I say keep the faith,that's what I'm saying Keep the
faith, man.
Keep the faith that thepositives are out there
happening, because you may maynever get the feedback on it,
you know, but the feedback onthe opposite is always there.
Even though it's the minorityof what's happening, the
(10:34):
feedback is always.
The negative feedback is always, especially in today's day and
age with all the social mediastuff.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, and for that the minority isn't highlighted.
The minority of the positivesare the things that actually
aren't highlighted but mightactually be the bigger things.
It's the majority of thenegatives and the there, and
it's not good for anybody whenthat happens.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But this speaks to this command thing too.
You can't be scared of whatsocial media is going to say for
you.
I mean, this gets to the, youknow you got to lead.
You got to.
You know the four W's comingoff a little bit here.
Four W's you got to will thingsinto existence.
Okay, I mean, that's how hardit is.
Nobody Okay, I mean, that's howhard it is, nobody ever says
that's a great idea.
I'm going to help you All right, here's the money.
(11:27):
I've never been in a unit thathad enough money, enough time,
enough people.
But for the big change you gotto will it to existence.
You just got to wake up one dayand said damn it, this is going
(11:50):
to be in two years, in a yearand a half, in two weeks,
whatever the time frame is.
You got to wither the internalresistance and you got to
weather the personal andprofessional attacks and if you
can do those three W's then youcan win.
But each one of those takescourage.
How do you know you're right?
So I thought about this with mymemo.
You know this is part of whatwas relieved off of me three
days into it.
But, um, I thought I'm notcomparing myself to a Billy
(12:14):
Mitchell, or you know, when hewas being court-martialed, did
he sit in his room going?
Am I right?
Is this worth it?
And I think the answer is yes.
So those four w's really matterbecause all those require
courage, you know, and courageis something that needs to be
generated.
Okay, confidence is a piece ofit.
(12:35):
The team that the family, andteams that surround you, the
people that pick up the phoneand say I'm thinking about you,
man, you're right, keep thefaith, keep moving.
Um, you know, all those thingsmatter, so you can receive that,
but you can also give it.
Your dad gave my dad a gift.
With his comment, the ColonelSelect that sent me that email
gave me a gift, a gift.
(12:58):
So take advantage of those veryinfrequent times when you get
the gift and have it, build yourconfidence and your courage and
then give those intentionally.
Give those to others who needit, intentionally.
Give those to others who needit.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And I think a lot of what we're talking about is in
the Air Force.
We've used a lot resilience,resilience and all the things,
and I think there's a kind ofnegative connotation on it just
because it's been used so much.
But I do, I'm grateful to seethat the air force has embraced
a lot of mental healthtendencies, especially in the
past I would say three to fiveyears, Um, and I think that you
(13:37):
actually had a lot to contributeto it, because you did
something early on in your AMCcareer that I think showcased
how even high level leadershipneeds to take care of themselves
when it comes to mental health.
Can you describe a little bitof what that was and why you
decided to do it that way?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Certainly, certainly, I had this ability to make
myself make my life incrediblydramatic in January of 22 and 23
.
So the first rally that we didrallies my commander's call with
my wing commanders.
The first rally we did we had apanel of everybody that had
(14:15):
executed the evacuation out ofKabul.
So there was everything fromfly fix support to spouses on
the panel and it was apparent tome very clearly that there was
an enormous impact of thatmission that we had to take on
and deal with Right.
So I had some pros that I hiredto come into the command One's
(14:38):
name's Chief, anthony Brinkley,a retired command chief that I'm
fortunate enough to know fordecades, and then Dr Janelle
McCauley, and they were kind ofproviding some expert level.
In the room had all the wingcommanders, and so we're talking
about hey, what do we do?
(14:59):
How do we know?
Not a big barrier to get out ofresiliency.
I don't like the, I don't mindthe word resiliency but I try
not to use it.
I think you're right about theconnotations there.
But Chief Brinkley said this hegoes, minahan, if you think
it's so important, make a mentalhealth appointment and put it
on your calendar.
(15:19):
So you know, I came away fromthat going all right, chief, you
know, and it took me a while toget over it, you know.
So that was in November, youknow thought about it all.
December came into earlyJanuary, put the mental health
appointment on my calendar and Irealized only four people could
(15:39):
see my calendar.
So I went down to the awesomePA team and I said tweet it.
And you know that started in,you know.
You know I talked about theother three days.
This was like you know.
I know you don't think this,but I am shy in social media and
all the things, especially backthen I wasn't beat up like I
(16:01):
was and I, you know it was.
It was insane, the amount, youknow.
I don't know if you'd call itviral, but it just it exploded
big.
You know, I went to theappointment.
It actually went out before Iwent to the appointment.
I went, you know they tried togive me a special parking place,
bring me in the back of thehospital, all that things.
I parked in the front, I wentto the front door, I went to
(16:22):
that elevator, I walked to thepart of the hospital that nobody
likes to go to.
I sat in the waiting room withmy name tag and uniform on and
you know, I did the computeruptake, I did the verbal uptake,
I did all the things and thenwhat I found out is when I got
to the back.
I just had a conversation andthe way I describe it is what I
thought I was doing for myairman I wound up doing for me.
(16:43):
Okay, I thought this was just ademonstration through example,
but it turns out that whenyou've had some of the
experiences that I've had in thePentagon on 9-11, some of the
missions that I've had to dothat involved fatalities,
casualties, things like that,some of the responsibilities
that I've had, that there aresome things that we need to work
(17:05):
through.
When you're talking to a pilotwith PTSD okay, I didn't mean to
get it.
I'm also the strongest person Iknow.
And then I also know that Ihave sat on, I've stood on a
stage for decades saying it's asign of strength, not a sign of
weakness, to seek help.
But I could not possibly knowwhat that means until I took
(17:30):
that walk myself and did that.
I had no idea what it means togenerate that courage and go for
it, nor did I understand thepositive impact with just a
conversation that it could leaveso soon after.
So all that collision ofeverything I'm telling you right
now is it's important that weset the environment so that we
(17:52):
can eliminate stigma, lowerbarriers and increase access and
options.
That's what that did for me.
It turns out that what I wasdoing for airmen, I was also
doing for me.
Okay, I can be the strong I'mnot saying strongest person I
know in an arrogant way, but I'mjust telling you, bring it.
Okay, I'll, I will work my buttoff and I will keep going, and
(18:14):
keep going, and keep going, andkeep going, and you know whether
it's easy or hard isinsignificant, but I'm going to
do, I'm going to work my tailoff till I physically and
mentally can't do that, and I'venot reached that barrier yet.
Ok, and I'm not saying that tobe hierarchical.
However, that word is againstother people, so please don't
take this as an arrogantstatement, but I'm just telling
(18:36):
you that, if that you can alsobe someone like me who thinks
that of himself, and benefitfrom that awesome chat and
journey, ok, the hardest thingyou can do awesome chat and
journey Okay, the hardest thingyou can do is take the journey
by yourself.
So anybody out there that'sthinking about it is already
doing the hardest thing possiblealready.
(18:57):
So all we've done here eliminatestigma, lower barriers,
increase access and options,mind-body, craft on the same
level, three pillars of you, allequal, not one subservient to
the others.
But we always do body and craftno big deal.
Go to the doctor, go to the gym, go to training, all that
(19:19):
things, but we rarely thinkabout the mind part.
So that's all it is is bringingthat all together, and so let
me end with this Aboveeverything I've done, I still
get the most feedback from that.
Okay, everything from I'll giveyou.
Let me see if I can come upwith.
I'll come up with three stories.
The first story is I got anemail from a master sergeant I
(19:42):
used to work with, who is then achief, who said who sent me
just a note and said sir, I'mglad you did this.
This is something I've neededto do for 20 years that you
finally gave me the courage todo.
Data point one.
Data point two I'm at HickamAir Force Base being driven to
my lodging, and I walked aroundto get my bag out of the back
(20:07):
and the driver with a mask on, acivilian driver, said hey, sir,
and I looked over and he goesthat tweet was awesome.
It's exactly what I needed.
Okay, data point three I'm inlows, lows and I'm mooching for
(20:30):
my 10% discount, so I've got,like I don't know, 86 cents of
bolts that I'm buying.
I throw down my ID card and shelooks at it civilian obviously
and she goes hey, you're thatguy that did that tweet.
If someone had created thatenvironment while I was in, I'd
still be in.
(20:50):
So again, this isn't about me.
This is about leaders settingthe environment and just making
it appropriate for people to doall that.
It's a very delicate humanissue.
There is nothing harder on theplanet than this, and we can do
it and be strong warriors andalso take care of the mind, just
(21:11):
like we take care of the bodyand craft.
Did I answer your question?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yes, you answered it.
Plus, and I love the backgroundof the story A few things that
stick out to me is first, I lovethat the conversation with
Chief happened in November andthe appointment happened in
January, because I think it'simportant to recognize that time
that you decided to think aboutit and that it's okay to take
(21:38):
that time to think about it,because sometimes you need that
time in order to take that step.
And I commend you for decidingto showcase that and highlight
it.
And it's amazing because Iremember this tweet going out
and thinking this is theshortest tweet ever because of
public affairs, and I rememberthe AMCPA team drafting it up
(21:59):
and they were going back andforth on how they were like
working on it and it was there,went with the shortest phrase
and made sure it was approvedand all that.
So it was interesting to see howI knew it was happening at AMC
and I was at a different unit, Ithink in Charleston, when all
this happened and it was perfecttiming for the unit on the
(22:20):
ground to see it and for them tounderstand that if a highest
level general in our unit, amc,is saying that this is okay, why
can't we To the point where themental health office was
getting inundated, as far as Iunderstand, with calls to the
point where they ran out ofappointments because everyone
(22:42):
felt okay for them to do it.
And so there's a huge impactthat a short tweet can have, and
I think your littlest moments,or what might seem like your
littlest moments, have maybe thebiggest impact as leaders.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know, you just ignited a thought.
It's the, it's the couragepiece, Right?
So I'm, you know I'm not, I'mnot saying I'm courageous, OK,
but I do need to generatecourage and you know I've never.
It's really insightful that youbrought up that gap.
I mean, you know, sometimescourage needs to be generated
very quickly, Sometimes courageneeds to be generated with
(23:18):
others and sometimes couragejust needs to be generated
within, and you maybe have somemore time.
So I'm going to process thattonight as I think about it.
But I think it's a powerfulcomment, but I don't know the
right answer and the perfectanswer.
I don't know it.
I don't know what to say when Iwalk into the room or the house
(23:40):
of a spouse whose husband wasjust killed in my port.
I don't know what to say, Idon't know the perfect thing,
but I'm going to walk in thereand I'm going to do my best and
I'm going to be me and genuineand I'm not going to have an
agenda except for to comfort, dothe best I can to comfort her.
(24:01):
Now I don't know what to say toparents who come to a base for
a memorial service for their sonor daughter.
I don't know the perfect tweetto try to get out of the suicide
rates that we're in.
I don't know the perfectanything.
And so you know, the generationof courage to just step into the
(24:25):
situation, be genuine, be real,be there.
Be there, man, it's easy to tapout and say someone else do it.
It's easy to say, well, I'm notgoing to walk in the door right
now, I'm going to wait for herto settle down.
I mean, you know it's thatthose are easy things that
require no courage.
The hard things are to go intothe most intense human
(24:51):
situations that exist in ourlives.
Do your best, do your best andguess what?
If you mess it up, thenapologize and try better, you
know, and debrief and get to abetter one the next time.
So you know, humans aren'tperfect.
We talked about that already.
Your highest highs and yourlowest lows will all be about
(25:12):
human things, and so I thinkit's important that we do this.
But we also talk about thesethings.
You know this is what squadroncommander courses need to chat
about.
You know, think about this.
The squadron commander coursein AMC while I was there, is the
most important course we teach.
Most important course, I meanthe squadron, and we developed
(25:34):
it strong right.
I committed myself and myschedule to it.
The team that put it on, fromthe CAG to the staff, was
phenomenal.
We aggressively went afterthings in a different way.
We made sure all the spousesthat could get there could get
there.
We included the command team.
So the first sergeants and thesuperintendents I mean really
grew it in a pretty good place.
(25:55):
But one of the things they haveto do before they get to Scott
is they had to give me theircommand philosophy and you get
everything from a regurgitatedSOS paper, ACSC paper to the
most awesome PowerPoint slidesyou've ever seen, all the way to
(26:15):
a couple of handwrittensentences, and I'm good with all
that.
You know a couple ofhandwritten sentences and I'm
good with all that.
But but my point to them isnobody you lead cares about your
command philosophy.
They don't.
They don't care about thisbinder of stuff you gave me.
What they care about is how youput it into action.
What they care about is howconsistent you are with it.
(26:39):
What they care about is how youdo it when you're tired.
What they care about is how youdo it when you're pissed.
What they care about it is howyou do it when you're maybe
you're feeling your oats alittle bit and you're a little
arrogant.
What they care about is how youreact when maybe another squad
or another unit is doing betteror worse.
What they care about is whereyou're at when their grandfather
(27:01):
dies, their grandmother dies.
What they care about is whatcan they make their?
You know?
So it's.
This collision of humanness iswhere this command philosophy
needs to meet the reality ofbeing human.
And so you know.
You can't replicate that in ayou know a classroom for a week.
You can't replicate that, evena classroom for a week.
You can't replicate that evenwhen you're a DO or a vice wing
(27:24):
commander.
I've been a vice wing commanderfor a year.
I was the deputy commander atPACOM for two years and as much
experience as I have being adeputy, I have no idea what it
feels like to be the commander.
I don't feel the weight, Idon't feel the tension.
(27:46):
I'm not in the room when theboss is mad and yelling at him
or happy and congratulating him.
So this weight of command andweight of supervision is a real
thing and the only way you canknow it is to have it, you know.
But so all that to say what wecan do in these instructions, in
this classroom and coaching andother things out there is.
(28:06):
We can talk about these thingsand prepare you and the future
leaders for that, because theseare, you know, to me these are
the essence of what makes a goodcommander or good command teams
and what makes ones that aren'tas good.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And it's so funny that you brought up not being
perfect.
Humans aren't perfect, becausethat's actually what I was going
to say earlier, but it's suchan important point to bring up
and I like that.
I love your perspective onbeing a commander because you're
correct, until you're in acommander role and I've never
been in a commander role, so Idon't even know you don't
understand what it takes to dothat and you are human in
(28:41):
yourself, but everyone aroundyou is also human and that's
what you were kind of talkingabout.
Is that interjection of all thehuman.
So how does your humanperspective interact with your
airman's human perspective?
Does it clash?
Does it kind of go together?
Does it mesh?
And a lot of times it won't.
Sometimes it will and then it'smagic, but you don't really pay
(29:03):
attention to that it's.
You pay attention to the timeswhen it doesn't.
The human, the humanimperfection, when it doesn't go
well.
That's what you focus on andthat's when the hardest parts
happen in leadership and commandand in all of those different
things.
And if you understand if you itsounds like what you're saying
is if you ground yourself inyour command philosophy, then
(29:24):
you understand how to kind ofbuild yourself and your
leadership skills to be okaywhen you have your human moments
, which is fine to have thosemoments.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, I think you're.
You're right.
I mean, you know, withexperience you gain, you know,
you gain a, you know, a broadertoolkit if you will, you know,
and what you can rely on toshape how you go in.
You know, and you know.
The other thing is you can'toverthink it, you know.
You know I learned a lot as awing commander doing discipline
(29:56):
issues Right, discipline issuesright, and I was lucky enough as
a squadron commander of someonewho led me through that.
But it's the.
When people are receivingdiscipline, you know the
emotions are very high, you know, and so someone might laugh
that's getting in trouble andthe easy response would be what
the F is so funny?
You know where it mightactually be.
(30:16):
Their brain is so overloaded atthe point that you know that
there's just things.
So you know that's probably apretty crude example, but you
know, but it speaks to the.
You know the imperfection ofwhat's going on is.
And then you know you graduallyget enough experience and
(30:37):
enough reps where you can kindof have a pretty good idea of
how you want to go in and whatthe outcomes might be, and you
also might be completely caughtby surprise, but at least you're
prepared to be caught bysurprise and that gives you a
skill set that a lot of peopledon't have, and the only way to
get it is to get it.
I mean, that's part of the deal.
So you know, as wing commanderMinahan, you know to take in
(30:58):
that staff around you, aroundyou and the people that might be
you someday, and to say, hey,listen, let me just tell you how
that went and how it could havegone better, and have people
come along with you so that theycan watch and see before they
have to do.
Those are part of what I wouldcall the phenomenal supervision
in commanders.
(31:19):
Are you trying to grow?
The next you, or the better youis a better way to say it.
Right, are you?
What are you doing beyond thenormal stuff, beyond the awards
index, beyond the recognition,beyond the OPRs, eprs or
whatever we call them now,beyond you know, the normal
stuff?
Are you taking the time to todevelop somebody that wants to
(31:42):
be you?
Not inappropriately, not tooearly, but it's like you know.
Are you?
Are you?
Are you bringing them in andgiving them a peek behind the
curtain?
How'd you think that went?
It went great.
Well, I don't think it wentgreat.
Let me tell you why that onereally caught me off guard or
this one you know this one was,you know could have been really
(32:02):
good, I don't know, but do yougo out of your way to to coach
the people that come in behindyou know the?
Uh?
I think coaching is a word weneed to use more than mentor.
Um will to win.
Better at handling bad is whatwe need to use instead of
resilience.
Those things matter andintentionally doing that even
(32:23):
when you're super busy,especially when you're in the
command level, are incrediblyimportant.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
The earlier that you can bring people into
behind-the-curtain kind ofscenes and full understanding.
It gives them a perspectivethat they probably wouldn't know
either.
So, even if it's, it's justnice to have that perspective,
because they it's always behindthe door, right, something like
that's always behind a door andthey're like well, what's
(32:50):
happened?
That must've been awful.
They came out crying, they cameout super mad, but maybe what
you saw was just actually, we'rejust holding you accountable
for something that you shouldhave done and you're upset about
you making a mistake.
So bringing people behind thatgives them a perspective of okay
(33:12):
, this is what accountabilitylooks like, feedback looks like,
and then the expectation isdifferent in a different manner,
as a leader and as the personwho's being supervised too,
because you want to be heldaccountable in your job and
making sure that you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
Did you ever sit in one of thesquadron commander courses?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I haven't.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Okay, there's a slide .
I mean it's me, so it's notgoing to be there anymore.
But my favorite block was I gotan hour block on decisions that
I had to make as a commanderand there was everything from
people to flying to disciplineissues and stuff.
But but the beauty of thosestories is there's no right or
wrong answer.
I mean, you know and this way Idescribe it you know, nobody
(33:50):
gets paid to stop on a red lightand go on a green light.
My dog can do that.
Nobody gets paid to go on greenand stop on red.
We get paid to negotiate yellowlights as commanders and
supervisors.
You know, very rarely is theissue so clear that it's just a
yes or a no.
(34:10):
It's normally a yes, it depends,or a no, it depends.
And so this yellow light, youknow, has a lot of you know it's
a horrific analogy, I get youknow.
Did you see it turn yellow fromgreen and therefore you have an
idea of how much time you gotto get through the intersection?
Or were you changing the radio,come up and it's yellow and you
have no idea whether it's aboutto hit red or whether you got
(34:32):
three or four more seconds.
You know.
So these, you know this abilityto operate in the gray, this
ability to operate in the gray,the ability to understand the
intent of the regs but thenapply them and with the context
needed, to move the unit and theindividual forward.
This is the essence of command.
I mean, there are stilldecisions I made as a squadron
(34:56):
commander or wing commanderwhere I go back.
I mean you could easily see itfrom the other direction.
And so the ones that I put inthe class are pretty, you know,
are pretty good, because we takevotes and we have discussions
and the spouses are always great.
But the intent is not for themto say, if that comes up, I'll
do it like Minahan did.
That's not it.
The intent is, again.
(35:16):
You know this is creating theenvironment where you can have
the right conversation thatguides you to the right decision
, and not just apply a yes or noand move on.
There's a book and this is partof the portfolio in the command
course too it's called MintUnder Stress.
It was written in 1945 by theflight surgeon of the Air Force
(35:40):
that did a survey of all flyingunits and they just wanted to
answer one question what made aunit combat effective?
And the answer is the commander.
And so I would broaden it, Iwould use more modern terms the
command team.
I would open it up, movingforward.
But commanders that establishedan environment where nobody
(36:05):
wanted to let each other down,those were successful Over ones
that were scared of the boss.
Squadrons that had commandersthat emphasized what is
important were ones that weresuccessful in combat.
Squadrons that had commandersthat de-emphasized the BS were
(36:28):
successful in combat.
So the command teams really havea lot of power here.
So I realize we're talkingspecifically now to a younger
group of commanders, right, butcan you make the main thing the
main thing?
Can you worry about what reallymatters?
And if you can, you know youcan create an environment where
(36:50):
they don't want to let eachother down or let the unit down,
honor the patch that's on theleft sleeve, then you know these
are the things you know thatreally go into the genuine style
, the UBU, all that other stuff.
You know that I think that canmake our team successful, but we
don't talk about that stuff atACSC and SOS and the normal
(37:14):
coaching and mentoring and stufflike that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That's where we need to go.
And it's true because there'sjust I feel like there's so much
we could talk about when itcomes to items like this, but
it's just realizing the impactthat a commander has.
I think that, ultimately,that's what it lies down to the
risk that you have to take,understanding the responsibility
that a commander has and whatyou need to do, the decisions
(37:42):
that you have to make on aday-to-day basis that could
impact person A, person B,mission A, mission B.
There's a lot of responsibilitywhen it comes to taking on a
role like that, and don't takeit lightly, but also realize
you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm reading.
I just read.
You're going to think I'm adork.
I just read the memoirs ofUlysses S Grant and I've got
about another day and I'll bedone with the memoirs of William
Tecumseh Sherman.
(38:17):
My goodness, those two memoirsare phenomenal.
I mean, first of all, theyspeak volumes to air mobility
command and the mission andlogistics and all that stuff.
I mean it's really good on thatstuff too.
But you're talking to twogenerals that were putting
thousands and thousands of liveson the field, you know
routinely, with horrific losses.
(38:37):
And you know these two.
I mean I never knew this tillthese memoirs, but you know
these were soldier soldiers.
You know these were sleep onthe ground with the troops guys.
These were move forward to thefront ends of the battlefield
soldiers.
These were understand, did Imake a march very quickly?
(38:58):
Do I have time to rest them?
You know these were so in tunedwith the average soldier.
You know that.
That you know this gets back toour talk on credibility and
worthiness and stuff like that.
I mean it's really and they're.
I mean these memoirs arewritten by them, thus the name,
clearly.
(39:19):
But you know so it's all theold-timey language but it's so
relevant for everything we'vetalked about today.
It's so relevant.
Why?
Because they were in with it.
They were fully in on themission.
They were fully in for theirsoldiers and their welfare.
They understood all that stuffand that's why they were
(39:39):
successful, unlike a lot of theCivil War.
General leadership.
But, what I'm telling you whenyou read this and I'm not giving
you homework assignment.
They're really, reallyenlightening and I really think
enlightening in a modern context.
I'll brag about it here onLinkedIn in a few weeks when I
finish the other one, but Iwould make this mandatory
(40:04):
reading.
I would put this on my readinglist if I was still had a
reading list that people caredabout, but it's it's not about
what it gets after everythingwe're talking about and and to
hear about the commanders thatthey, that they appointed, to
hear about who they relievedfrom command and why, you know,
(40:25):
really pertinent to thediscussion that we're having
today.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yeah, and it's all.
It seems like it all goes backto lean into the main thing.
What's the main thing as themission?
And the people.
So the job that you need to doand the people that you need to
take care of, and all of thesethings that we keep talking
about, the decisions I have tomake, mental health, the
leadership legacy all the thingsare leading back to the job and
(40:53):
the people.
I can't tell you how much Iappreciate your conversation and
everything that we talked abouttoday.
I can't wait for people tolisten.
I'd love to close with one morequestion, and that is if you
could leave any piece of advicefor the audience today.
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Okay, well, I got to go to my go-to.
Is that?
Okay, that's perfect.
Okay, don't suck.
That's it.
You know it's flippant.
I get that, you know.
(41:44):
Decide not to suck.
You know, be the commander youalways wanted, be the supervisor
.
You two commanders before me,and that placard was still under
the commander's message.
It said message from thecommander don't suck.
It is wonderfully simple andpure and so accurate Make a
decision that, no matter what,that your mission and your
airmen are going to succeed,okay.
(42:06):
And then do all the hard workand the pushups and the things
necessary to make it come true.
Do all the hard work, thepushups and the things necessary
to make them successful.
Do that.
Be bothered by that.
You know, be bothered by that.
And you know I, I realize it'sa little bit flippant.
You know, be bothered by that.
And you know I realize it's alittle bit flippant.
(42:26):
You know I'm going to write abook and I would say this
publicly.
Now I got to actually do it andthe title is going to be Don't
Suck.
I mean that, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
I look forward to the book.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I don't know Now.
I know Now I got to actually doit, but I don't know if anyone
will want to read it.
But the point is it's thatpowerful to me and that was a
rallying phrase for us.
But you know, and it's notmeant to be taken flippantly,
it's meant to say you know,really do this is important
business.
Really read the oath that youtook, whether you're officer
(42:56):
enlisted.
If you're enlisted, read theNCO creed and the senior NCO
creed and the chief's creed andthen really really grade
yourself.
If you're doing that, you know,when you think about all the
responsibilities of a commander,you know, really think about
and be bothered by those things,and a supervisor and a first
(43:16):
sergeant and a superintendent,all the things you know, I, I
really do, uh, say it's thatsimple.
So I, I, I apologize for thecrudeness of it, but I don't
apologize for, uh, for anythingelse about it.
It's, it's an amazing two wordphrase that you should make the
decision to be awesome with.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it, you don't
want your leader to suck.
And I mean, if you think aboutit, you don't want your leader
to suck, so why would you beokay with not being awesome?
Yep, I appreciate your timetoday and I'm sure the audience
is going to learn lots fromtoday's episode.
It was just really greatchatting with you.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, well, I'm here for you and your audience always
.
So you know I'm on LinkedIn.
Send me a note.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
And I'll put all these links.
I'll put links to the books andthe LinkedIn and any other
information that we might havetalked about in today's episode.
I'll put it in the show notesand thank you all again for
listening in.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Lead Into it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me If you
would leave a review on Applepodcast or Spotify to help
(44:24):
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to lead
into itco.
That's lead into itco.
Thanks again.
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