Working Through Doubt: Leading Beyond Imposter Syndrome

Have you ever caught yourself thinking, “I’m not doing enough,” even while you’re holding everything together? You’re ticking boxes, keeping things running, supporting others — and still that little voice creeps in saying, “Are you sure you’re getting this right?”. Welcome to Lead the Standard! In this episode of Lead The Standard, Jackie and Kelly explore the pervasive issue of imposter syndrome, particularly in leadership roles. They discuss the challenges and emotional impact of self-doubt, even when outwardly successful. Kelly shares her personal journey of stepping into a new role while managing both professional and personal upheaval, including cancer treatment and natural disasters. The episode introduces a six-step 'Thread Model' for navigating and overcoming imposter syndrome. These steps include tracing tacit knowledge, highlighting hidden work, reflecting on responsibility, equipping the team, acknowledging, and appreciating efforts, and developing with intention. They stress the importance of transparency, empowering team members, and maintaining a balance between productivity and self-care. Both hosts emphasize that leadership involves continuous learning and appreciating the team's contributions to foster a more open and effective work environment. Notable timestamps: • 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage • 00:48 Welcome to the Throwing Out Podcast • 02:10 Imposter Syndrome: A Leadership Challenge • 03:35 Kelly's Personal Journey and Insights • 10:23 The Thread Model: Six Practices for Effective Leadership • 12:33 Trace: Identifying Invisible Knowledge • 15:28 Highlighting Hidden Work • 21:48 Reflecting on Responsibility • 26:17 Equipping Your Team with Power • 32:17 The Fragility of Team Dynamics • 32:44 Addressing Permission-Seeking Behavior • 33:47 The Bottleneck Effect • 34:35 Acknowledging and Appreciating Team Members • 35:28 The Power of Unexpected Appreciation • 38:24 The Impact of Acknowledgement on Leadership • 42:36 Developing with Intention • 45:35 Reflecting on Personal and Team Growth • 59:22 Summarizing Key Takeaways • 01:01:02 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans The usual links: • Read the LTS Article: https://blog.auditortrainingonline.com/lead-the-standard/2025-18 • ATOL: https://auditortrainingonline.com/ • Connect with Jackie: o https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackiestapleton/ o https://jackiestapleton.com/ • Connect with Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellytaylor-au/ Other links we promised: • Jackies Book is coming register for pre-sale now…. https://jackiestapleton.myflodesk.com/leadthestandardbook • Girl Director: https://girldirector.com/ Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for general guidance and informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts, co-hosts, guests, and contributors are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Auditor Training Online (ATOL) or its affiliated entities. While every effort is made to ensure the accuracy and currency of the information shared, including references to ISO standards and related clauses, this content should not be considered definitive legal, regulatory, or professional advice. Listeners should always consult with a qualified professional for advice tailored to their specific business context or compliance obligations. Unless otherwise stated, all information relating to ISO standards, including clause references and revision details, is based on the version of the standard current at the time of recording and publication. As standards are periodically reviewed and updated, we encourage listeners to confirm the latest version applicable to their needs. ATOL does not accept any liability for reliance on the information presented in this podcast. Content may be updated, removed, or corrected without notice. © Auditor Training Online Pty Ltd 2025. All Rights Reserved | www.auditortrainingonline.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm not doing enough. Even while you're holding
everything together, you're ticking the boxes, you're
keeping things running, you're supporting others.
You're doing everything under the sun and still that little
voice creeps in your head saying, oh, you're getting this
route. Today we're going to talk about
that. Welcome to Lead the Standard.

(00:26):
I was at my turn now Kelly awesome.
Because it's it's a bit confusing this week.
Obviously it's me. I'm Jackie Stapleton and
normally I don't do this part. So it's good to be back with
you. Although today, as I said, we're
doing things a little differently and because I've

(00:47):
been away for a while, it's still throwing, it's throwing me
out a bit. So welcome to the Throwing Out
podcast, right? So we have mixed things up for
this episode and I've, well, I've handed over the reins to
the supposedly brilliant Co hostKelly.

(01:10):
Hello, Kelly. Look, I always feel like I've
handed the reins over to you in this part now that we're
thinking about that. Confused and thought, how long?
Who am I handing the reins over to?
You? We've switched spots and and I'm
I'm entertained already. This is going to be fun.
I'm so glad you're. Back.
Is that the right name? Anyway, Kelly isn't just

(01:33):
steering the ship this week in this episode, she's also the
voice behind this week's Lead the Standard article.
So while I was away, she wrote an amazing lead, The Standard.
And I have to say she did send it to me while I was on holidays
and I did read it and it was brilliant.
I could really relate to it. So I could relate to it because

(01:58):
it's a conversation that so manyof us should be having.
OK, we may be having it in some way, shape and form, but really,
if we're in a leadership role, this is a conversation that we
should be open about. So this episode is all about
imposter syndrome. So what it really looks like

(02:21):
behind the scenes, OK, what whatdoes it look like while it's
sitting on your shoulder there? And how it shows up even when
things are actually going well. And what we can do to move
through it without getting stuckin it.
Because it's sort of that a vicious cycle, isn't it?
So now, if you've ever felt thatquiet, sometimes not so quiet

(02:46):
self doubt, the kind that lingers no matter how many wins
you've had, you are going to be for you going to want to be a
part of today's conversation. So, Kelly, let's get into it
because you've been on a bit of a journey lately, haven't you?
I have. Thank you, Jackie.
And yes, fuck off. As we know, whenever I do take

(03:08):
over the rains, things do get a little bit personal.
So I'm glad that you read it. I I knew that you would be a
little bit of a hypocrite when you're on holidays and open your
e-mail. But yeah, it was one of those
ones that I thought a few monthsago, I'm going to write this and
then I'm life happened and we'regoing to talk about that.
And then something else happenedwhile you were away and I

(03:32):
thought, no, drop, drop everything.
I'm writing this today because it needs to be discussed.
So as most of our listeners know, over the past 18 months, I
think it is now, I've stepped into a new role managing the
business operations here at at all.
And part of that's been growing a brand new team, learning to

(03:53):
lead along the way in a way thatI've never LED before, all while
juggling the chaos of what's been going on in my personal
life. So you know, we've coming out of
the back end of cancer treatment, tornadoes, cyclones,
all of those things. So lots of things being good up
in the air on paper. I knew this business.

(04:13):
I knew it possibly as well, if not better than you in some
areas. I knew the systems better than
anyone else. I don't think anybody would
argue with that. I've had comments from past and
present on colleagues around that.
But did I believe my in myself? That took a lot longer.
And look, it's still a work in progress.

(04:34):
We had Jackie, I had a chat lastnight, as recently as last
night. So what I didn't see coming was,
even though we'd hired all of these incredible people in new
roles, the real challenge wasn'twhat we knew, it was how much we
hadn't actually shared. And I think this was a bit of a

(04:55):
shock for both of us. Jackie.
We've been carrying years and years of tacit knowledge,
undocumented, unspoken. We just got down and did it and
that kind of became a little bitof a downfall for us both.
I think we'd agree we're very aware of tacit knowledge, but I

(05:16):
think we really underestimated how long it would take to
transfer that to other people. I think we underestimated how
much tacit knowledge we actuallyhad.
We've got some fairly robust documented systems.
So that was that was a bit of a shock to us.
Definitely, yeah. And sorry, as you said that I, I

(05:38):
also recall like that tacit knowledge you said undocumented,
unspoken, just done. And sometimes, and this is not
right, obviously in a system, you just did something.
Oh, I just did something. So you didn't really have to
document it, because you just did it.

(05:59):
And. Then all of a sudden when you
had to share it like you had it for course development because
you used to do from A-Z, now it's all broken up.
And how that works is completelydifferent when there's different
people doing it. And then for me, the whole
invoicing accounts, accounts payable.

(06:21):
So I, I just used to do it and so therefore on holidays I just
kept doing it. I never had a holiday without,
until my last one without havingto check for invoices.
And because I'd just always doneit even through my holidays.
For me to transfer it to you, you know, it was, it's it, you

(06:43):
know, it was a mess. And you and you've had to
develop new procedures so that Ican back you up when you have
holidays. So it's now.
Yeah, it it's and I, and as you said, I never even realized
that. Yeah, and that's the thing.
We didn't even realize that we were just doing because we were

(07:05):
just doing. We didn't realize this stuff.
So I think the big lesson that we learnt from that was not only
the underestimating of how long it would take to transfer that
knowledge, because 18 months in we're still doing that, but not
only that, how hard it would be to train people while still
keeping everything else running.You can't do both.

(07:29):
So I kind of, I felt stuck in a real loop of working weekends,
overcompensating, constantly questioning if I was doing
enough. And I said, I'm, I'm managing
Atoll, I'm managing the project management and insurance stuff
with our house. And then now in the place that

(07:51):
we're in at the moment, I'm effectively property managing
and project managing for our landlords here who pay someone
else to do that, might you? So they're like, there was all
of these things and I did get into that.
Am I doing enough when clearly Iwas doing too much?
And again, you and I've had thatconversation this week again and
I'm volunteering publicly. I've got another article.

(08:11):
I might start that one this afternoon.
But that's the thing about the imposter syndrome.
It really hides behind productivity.
It hides under full calendar, behind phrase.
Oh, I'm just going to push through it.
We'll be fine tomorrow. I'll get that done.
And in trying to actually be helpful, I ended up making

(08:34):
myself the bottleneck. I was micro managing my team
without intending to. That was not my goal.
It was just I need to get you and help you along this way.
But in doing that, I wasn't actually helping them.
I was micromanaging them. I was holding on too tightly
because I didn't trust that I was leading them well enough to

(08:54):
let go. And that's very different to
them being capable of doing their jobs.
And that was a real aha kind of moment for me.
But the the ironic thing was that the moment that everything
shifted, I was driving home. One day actually, when I wasn't
I'll be, I was driving to the nursery 'cause I needed some
pick from some downtime and retail therapy and green stuff.

(09:17):
And I was driving along and we live on Tambourine Mountain,
driving along the gallery, walk the tourist route, getting a
little bit frustrated by people who don't know how to park cars
and things. And then this voice came on and
was talking about systems and simplicity and she was just
making a whole lot of sense around all of these things
because I had just worked that morning.

(09:38):
It was a Sunday, I'd been working and I shouldn't have
been. And I just got out.
This woman was talking about allthese wonderful things.
I'm like, we need that. And the irony of that was that
that woman's voice was my own. And that Spotify had thrown an
episode of laid the standard on It's true.
And it was almost like the worldwas trying to tell me something.

(10:00):
So she's laughing now. But when I told Jackie, she
laughed even more. And you need to write about this
and you need to figure out how to change what you feel is
broken. And so I did.
And that's what we're going to talk about today.
So thank you, Jackie, for makingme do that.
But also being part of this podcast, that kind of helped me

(10:21):
through that as well and bring it.
It was a very uncomfortable, ironic, hilarious moment.
So what I've actually produced model that helped me move
through that doubt to trust is what I'm calling the thread
model. I'm 6 practices that helped me
neatly weave through the business, bring on the part,
lead a little bit differently, grow a business that thrives on

(10:45):
ownership and that today is really important.
So those are 6 practices. Trace, trace what's tacit,
highlight, highlight all of thathidden work.
Reflect on responsibility, equipyour team, acknowledge and

(11:05):
appreciate and is develop with an intention.
So not everything is about in. Not every improvement is about
more. Sometimes growth is about
recognizing what's already working, stopping and breathing
and then focusing on how we can do those bigger, better things.
So bigger things simpler and easier.

(11:26):
And I said weaving those solutions into the team.
So I'm really keen to get into this one.
Have a good chat and share a couple of stories.
But one thing that I didn't mention there was I alluded to
it earlier, Jackie's been away and I've I've, this system's
really helped me pull things together until Jackie was in the

(11:47):
air between here and Denver. And then suddenly that little
voice crept back in. And then the lovely rear and I
should have that in front of me.It is in the article posted at
there's a link down here on LinkedIn completely unprompted,
something that really made me lose my breath.
Like I, I couldn't respond to what she said.

(12:10):
And it really highlighted how much this system had helped me
and not just me, but the team atlarge.
So I will share that again at the end, but I do want to get
into it. So we've alluded 1 already.
Are you ready, Jackie? Because I know you have some
great insights. Let me know.
Let me know and I'll see if I can add anything useful.

(12:31):
Hopefully, hopefully so. The first topic, as I mentioned,
is trace. Trace what is tacit.
Start identifying the invisible knowledge that you are carrying.
I want you to ask your team whatis something that you do
regularly that no one else sees,knows you do or knows how you do

(12:52):
it? What if you won the lottery
tonight, tomorrow, and you left,you didn't come back?
What would people struggle to find out or figure out?
OK. And are there steps in your
workflow that live in your head?So just because it's documented,
what are the steps that you knowall I need to do here but aren't

(13:13):
necessarily there? So these three things really
helped. And I know Jackie's already
waving her hand because she's already thought of a moment that
we, we employed this ourselves. I know I was saying goodbye
because, oh, goodbye. Sorry ship in the Lotto and you
didn't tell me damn all right, that explains a lot from this

(13:35):
bonus action this to really helpyou.
This is just pick one of those, pick one of those tasks that,
oh, only I know how to do this and jot down those steps.
Or my favorite one of late is we've got so many AI tools is do
that process and record a screenshare, but don't just do it.

(13:56):
Talk yourself through it and then play it back and find out
how many steps you just did without realizing that you did
them or that they were part of the process.
So that was that was a really important part of this process
and for both of us moving into this, but even more so as you
said that course release project.

(14:20):
I thought I'd handed over all ofthe things.
But then when you one person's doing this job that that's fine
A-Z, but then you've got A to B and then C to X and then
whenever the X. Comes next.
You went too far for that. Too far like it.
And yeah, that makes it easier. But yeah, you, you don't realize

(14:43):
those little micro steps that are that transition from one
platform to the next or one stepto the next.
So, and, and you mentioned this too, Jackie, you just paid the
invoices. Yeah, that's right.
And I suppose these are all great questions, but you and I

(15:05):
didn't really realize this untilwe were at the pointy end.
No, and that's where we have to.Hand them over?
How? How can we recognize this
earlier? Well, let me skip to topic 2,
which is. Highlighting the hidden work.
That's a good segue then. I didn't even get paid for that

(15:27):
segue. I'll talk to the boss about that
later. So the second section of this,
which as Jackie has brightly pointed out is really important
as well, is while you have that tacit knowledge that you know
about and that you're aware of, as you're working through that,
you are going to highlight some hidden work.

(15:49):
And that's the second part of this model, making the unseen
visible. So what jobs are you doing
behind the scenes that aren't showing up in any reports or
meetings? Are you solving problems quietly
that should that other people should actually be seeing?
Are you solving problems quietlythat other people should

(16:10):
actually be solving? What's making you feel mentally
heavy and who actually knows about it?
And I think that a good example of that is, and I'm seeing it so
much more since I've written this article, I'm seeing it a
lot on reels about people just stepping back and saying, oh,

(16:30):
there's the problem. The managers are telling me
there's this issue, this issue. And I've told them, I've told
them, and I've told them I just fix it.
I just fix it. I just fix it.
I'm going to not fix it. And then they're going to know
about it. There's so many more of those
things there. Stop just fixing something for
the sake of fixing it. If it's not your responsibility.
If you're having that, is it mentally heavy?

(16:51):
If you're wanting to whinge yourbitch part in the language about
a person or a process because it's not being done and you're
having to do that, why are you having to do that?
They don't know that that's a requirement.
So I think the the core thing out of this one is to bring that

(17:12):
one invisible task into the light at your next team meeting.
Say it out loud. Just say to the team, hey, I've
been doing this. Did you guys know and what could
we do now? You just asked the question,
Jackie, how do you how did like we didn't know that there was a
lot of things that we were doing.
And that's when you created the resource register.

(17:32):
That's true. Yeah.
So what we did for I think we started out a week and then we
went, oh, we're still going. And it was 2 weeks and then.
Yeah, absolutely. And it even still now we're
still doing that. We created an Excel spreadsheet
and we wrote down every task that we do.
And when we as we as we do it was.

(17:54):
Open. And yeah, as you're thinking
about it, it goes on there, yeah.
Yeah. And as as we do it and we, we're
talking tasks here, we're not saying projects because yes,
Jackie pays the invoices. That's one project.
I guess that project is OK. We've got consultants who are

(18:16):
and subject matter experts who are building our courses.
How many hours are they putting?So we review that invoice,
that's one task. We document the number of hours
that it's create they've chargedto building that course.
That's another task. Then we review the expenditure
for that month relating to that.Is it higher?
Is it lower? That's the third step.
Then we review Wednesday, invoice due, we review, approve,

(18:42):
let the bookkeeping team know that this is approved.
But then we also need to leave the book, let the bookkeeping
know which account code is this going to.
So this one thing isn't one thing.
There was. How many was there?
5 or 6. Oh, even even more.
And some of those, and as you discovered in in other tasks as

(19:03):
well, they don't necessarily have to be one person, which is
what we were trying to do in theresource register, wasn't it?
Absolutely. And that made me realise, well,
hang on, as you said, I don't need to be doing all of these
things. This, this is more of an
administrative role. APA can do that.

(19:23):
The bookkeeper should be doing that.
Why like all of these things, Why isn't this person doing?
Why can't that person doing it? So by making every single step,
and it does sound tedious, but you would be surprised how
simple that is. Is it when you've got that
spreadsheet up next to you or your notepad, everything you do,

(19:43):
write it down and you will have that little sinking feeling in
your stomach about where like, how am I doing all of this?
Why am I doing all of this? I didn't realise I was doing so
much. So yeah, that I feel was a
really good exercise and it. And that's why we now have a
team of eight and not a team of.Two yes, yes, because we

(20:06):
discovered that we needed more people, yeah, to do what the two
of us were doing. And obviously, yeah, I've
overworked and we, we couldn't get it all done like, yeah, you
know, it's like a handyman, isn't it?
A Jack, a Jack of all trades. But yeah, I think an outcome of
that was also that we we realized that what was left was

(20:29):
still a full time job, wasn't it?
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. And that's that's hidden.
So we exactly and, and sometimesso we, we have some other apps
that we use. So we were using Harvest.

(20:49):
I still use that occasionally. We used to.
So we use time keeping apps justto get an idea of how much time
we were spending on those things.
Some of them we weren't spendingenough, some of them we were
spending too much, right. And that's, that's where
productivity comes down. But I'm, I am going to kind of
segue into that next part because again, like you've just

(21:10):
said, we identified that like we've got all these people now.
Why am I still like being on this?
And it's because what was left was still more than a full time
job. So like we handed over the
things that we were doing that we didn't need to do, but what

(21:32):
was left we could now do better.Yeah.
Or exactly at all. We were able to do those hidden
things that were being overlooked.
Yeah, we, yeah, not prioritized,yeah.
Absolutely, which leads nicely into reflecting.
No, I think it's reflecting on our responsibility.

(21:54):
Yeah. So topic 3, reflecting on
responsibility. And that's getting honest about
what you're holding onto alone and what you could let go of
asking yourself, am I doing thisbecause it's mine or because I
haven't asked anyone else who could take this on with a bit of

(22:16):
extra support or a bit of extra context?
What would happen if I stopped doing this for a week?
That was an interesting one. Would anyone notice if I stopped
doing this for a week? And again, listing those
recurring tasks and marking anything that you've never asked
for help with and then choosing one of those tasks to delegate

(22:39):
or discuss or redefine, I think is a really good point there as
well. So this one, again, that course
development for me, one of the things I didn't mention, there
was a passion. I was passionate about the
course development and I wasn't getting the time to do it.
But I also love systems and I didn't realize I love the
systems and operation side more than I love the course

(23:00):
development. But it took a lot for me to let
go of that. Yeah.
And that. Yeah.
And that's something there like,do you need to be responsible
for this or do you just want to be responsible for that?
And they're, they're two reasons, but they do lean into
each other. So yes, Jackie, you had, you've

(23:22):
had a few of these kind of moments over the last few months
as well about what you letting go of and what challenges you've
seen. Did you want to share on any of
that? Probably can't share it
publicly. No, it's, it's, it's, it's very

(23:44):
true. Like even using your example of
the course development, I think we've become attached to certain
things and you think that you need to be doing it.
But that's a question I actuallyasked myself while I was on
holidays. What is it that I actually enjoy

(24:04):
doing? And look, sometimes we don't
have the luxury of asking that, but I'm older, so I'm at the
stage where I can go, you know what?
I don't want to do that anymore.And that's something that's not
what I want to wake up to and, and do anymore.
And I think it's helped me to, to lighten the light and let go.

(24:28):
I think you mentioned that in the leading sentence, what you
can let go of. And it is difficult because I've
even seen your journey with course development.
It's like, no, I'm holding on tothis.
This is, but you know, it's it. It's sort of like, you know how
we talk about work to make yourself redundant.

(24:50):
It's sort of aligns with that because while you're holding on,
Oh my God, I've just had a lightbulb moment as well.
While you're holding on to thesethings, you cannot move forward.
You cannot give yourself other opportunities.
You know, and, and I'm not talking about as a business
owner, as an employee, like you move.

(25:11):
Like for you, Kelly, you moved into the operations management
role. So you couldn't do that job if
you were still doing course development.
That's what you wanted to do. Well, that's where you would
stay. Yeah.
It really opens up opportunity for you.
So possibly if you look at it from that perspective, it might

(25:32):
help you to let go because whilewe still have that, that thing
that's comfortable, we always just go back to it.
Yeah, this is comfortable and itprevents us from moving forward.
So that's that work to make yourself redundant.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
It absolutely does. And I just had that light bulb

(25:52):
moment as well because that is something that throughout my
career and my time at at all, it's something that I've always
been passionate about and promoting working to make
yourself redundant document you want to go on holiday as well.
And then as you were talking about that, I was thinking this
whole article is about how I wasfeeling the absolute opposite of
that. I wasn't allowing.

(26:13):
I've like, I thought I'd done that, which leads once again,
nicely. We haven't rehearsed this by the
way. I think we're going to flip
things up a little bit more often.
So it plays really nicely into topic 4, which is it's whipping
your team, giving your team the power and not just the tools.
This blew my mind. We talk about it all the time

(26:38):
and you think that you're doing it, but this one for me is the
the big one. This is like the actual not in
the thread that stops everythingfrom coming apart when you pull
up that little bit too hard. Giving them power, not just the
tools. So asking, do people really feel

(26:58):
like they're allowed to make decisions?
OK, Do they feel, do they genuinely feel like they're
allowed to make decisions or arethey still sitting there waiting
for mine or somebody else's signoff?
When was the last time I said give it a go and I meant it and
they heard that I meant it because they're two different

(27:20):
things as well and am I fixing problems for them or am I
helping them to solve things themselves?
Again, two different things. So one thing I want everyone to
do at their next team meetings, especially if you're in a
leadership role. And if you're not, flip it.
I'll give you 2 two phrases I want everyone to try.

(27:42):
I want you to clearly say you donot need my permission.
Try it. If it works, great.
If it doesn't, we learn. Now, I want to to credit Rachel
Dunn from Girl Director for saying that to me probably five
years ago. The first part of that sentence
and it always sits in my head from a personal perspective, but

(28:04):
it was really the last few months that I went actually I, I
need to do the same thing with my team.
And then while Blackie was away,we kind of had that flip because
I think we do all fall back to you because if I'm not here to
fall back on the team often grewfall back on you and they had no
one to fall back on while you weren't here.
So there were few instances where I did say you don't need

(28:26):
my permission, just try it. If it works, great.
If it doesn't document, we'll learn from it.
We'll not do it that way next time, but we don't have any
regrets because we've tried it. We running really behind on
promoting an event and they said, oh, look, we're going to
can we send this out on Saturday?
I said, why are you asking? Let's let's just do it, try it.

(28:49):
If it works, great. If it doesn't, we learn.
Well, it worked and we learned because it worked so well that
we actually had to completely change the event to cater for
the number of people that were attending because we could not
have expected the number of registrations that we got in 24

(29:11):
hours. Completely blew our mind because
someone tried something different.
So when your team do that, but Ithink by genuinely like I say it
to the team all the time, you don't need my permission, you
don't need my permission. Give it a try.
You own this, you own this. And I say that to the
one-on-one. But I think the clear shift was

(29:33):
when I said it in a team meetingand I said it to everybody, you
all are like, you are the experts in your job.
And Jackie and I said, Jackie and I've said this many times,
one-on-one being a group setting, something seems to
click. It was like they all knew that
everybody else knew, yeah, they were the expert and they were to
be trusted in their job and theywere going to give it a go.

(29:56):
And that's when everything kind of shifted for the team, and we
really saw things picking up. So that for me was a big one.
And look, if you're not a leaderand you're an employee, walk
into your meeting and look, kudos to me if you can do it.
I'm very impressed. I don't need your permission.

(30:16):
I'm going to try it. And if it works, we're all going
to do it. If it doesn't, I'll take full
responsibility and we'll learn from it.
So take ownership. This is, it's not just about
giving people the tools and documenting those processes.
It's about equipping them with the power and embracing that,
allowing them, empowering them. Again, we've had a few episodes

(30:39):
about that as well. So yeah, it's actually a really,
really good point because they do need to feel like that.
You said allowed to make decisions, but if they're
getting questioned constantly about things, well then that
power is taken away from them too, isn't it?
Yeah. And that's, that's something

(31:00):
that we've been through a few times and, and look, we are
going to go through it again. I can guarantee that it's going
to happen again in the future. You and I have those
conversations one-on-one betweenourselves.
It's like we're open to that as well.
And like, I feel like as leaders, sometimes that panic
we, if we're not seeing the results that we want, we can't

(31:22):
attend to panic. And then we push those questions
on to other people. And that kind of has that flow
on effect. And now that we're talking this
through, I'm having that light bulb of when this imposter
syndrome started to kick back in.
There was a trigger for me. There was a certain period of
time when the dynamics professionally and personally

(31:43):
changed. And it was like, hang on, where?
Where do I stand in this now? A new road today.
But suddenly today, there's beena shift.
Now where do I stand? So again, reminding yourself and
your team that look, you are theexpert in that role.
And if there's questions, why they're questions, go back

(32:04):
through the, the, what's that tacit knowledge?
What's that hidden stuff? Who is responsible?
Am I responsible? Do I have the consent to do
this? Do I have the knowledge to go to
go to that next stage? Yeah, Now that that's that's

(32:25):
interesting. And this isn't, and this is
something that can be taken awayfrom people as well.
It's it is. Yeah.
Because people may have it, but then, as you say, dynamics
change and then you, you said start questioning yourself.
It's really quite a delicate part.

(32:46):
And if you, if you find that your team suddenly seeking that
permission again asked them and said this is something that
we've gone through recently, why?
Why do you feel like you need mypermission?
Because it could be, it could bea very uncomfortable
conversation. You could be the reason that

(33:08):
they're asking your permission again.
And we've, this is again, conversation that we we have had
within our team, not just we've had it once or twice with the
current team. And I'm so glad that they're so
open to these conversations. We've had it with previous team
members as well. But again, there was that light
bulb of hang on, I'm spending a big time training eight people

(33:29):
at once over, oh, sorry, it was 5 people at once over 8
different roles or something andwasn't giving each team member
what they needed. So they were having to ask
questions, which was a reflection on me and my
performance, which obviously then triggered me into this
space, which triggered the team into this space.
So. Yeah.

(33:50):
And you mentioned bottleneck, I think earlier on that through
this process you actually becamethe bottleneck.
Yeah, yeah. So which, Yeah, which is a
result of the imposter syndrome,but also like overtrying and
overcompensating, yeah. Yeah.
But, you know, it's, you mentioned earlier it's a work in

(34:12):
progress, but it's a continual work in progress.
No matter what we're doing and how long we're, you know, we're
in a role, it should be a work in progress.
If it's not a work in progress, you shouldn't be doing that job
anymore. Yeah, yeah.
Not learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

(34:35):
Yeah. And.
Yeah, which leads nicely to the next one.
Topic 5. Acknowledge and appreciate
AAA's. Let people know that they are
seen and and they are valued. So when was the last time I said
thank you unprompted? OK, who quietly keeps the wheels

(35:01):
turning that I haven't recognized lately?
And more importantly, who do openly keeps the wheels turning
that I haven't recognized lately.
Because sometimes the people that we know are doing the work
need acknowledgement as well. They need to feel sane.
Have I shared with the team the things that I've proud, that I'm

(35:24):
proud of in them one-on-one and publicly?
Because some people don't like that public recognition.
So here's a challenge and something that I've been doing
in my personal life lately. Reigniting some relationships
and acknowledging people. Send one unexpected note of

(35:45):
appreciation to a team member today.
Short message really can make someone's weak, so we use Slack
here. Just Adm every now and then.
I saw this. I love it.
Thank you. You're amazing.
Sending text messages to people you haven't spoken to in a long
time. No, this is not.
I haven't been hacked. I was just thinking of you and.

(36:08):
Oh wait, I'm waiting for my message.
Now you. Jackie and I have that
relationship or of an evening. I send her the message that says
I'm sending you 30 reels and youhaven't looked at any of the
thought of you 30. They're not.
Always. That's what I was thinking.
We communicate in reels. We're so old, Jackie, like

(36:33):
little things like that. And now like I will randomly
send team members a gift becausesometimes they're a little bit
fun and it doesn't need to be need to be serious all of the
time. Let people know that you're
human. But this acknowledgement and
this appreciation, it does fuel that workflow.

(36:54):
And we've had, I can think straight away without even, I've
got two team members who constantly say, Oh, I just, I
just want it to be perfect. I just, I just want to give it
to, and you know exactly who I'mtalking about.
I want to do what works for you.I, it's not about me.
Like my job as a, as a leader and a manager is to support you

(37:15):
and help you to grow. I want you.
And this is, this is a big acknowledgement in this space.
I acknowledge. I want you to acknowledge that
we acknowledged your skills and your talents and your everything
when we met you in your job interview.
And that's why we brought you onas as a team member.

(37:39):
That was our first point of acknowledgement.
And we really appreciate everything that you do every day
because all of those hidden tasks, all of those little
things that you do as part of your job because they're your
daily admin tasks that you're documented.
That is huge for us because we used to do that.

(38:00):
And just something like making acalendar booking for us or
accepting a meeting invite doesn't seem like much, but when
you have a lot on your plate, itis a lot.
Sending an e-mail to a subject matter expert, little things
like that. So this is something that I'm
trying to be a lot more conscious of, regardless of who

(38:23):
and what and where, really appreciating, but acknowledging
that. And again, I want to fall back
to I mentioned earlier this the post that Bria shared with
LinkedIn. It was.
And again, as I said, it's in the show night.

(38:44):
So make sure if look, if you're not connected with Rhea, please
do connect with Rhea. But she's an amazing human
being. But I was, I said I was having
that day where I was just not feeling fantastic and I was
feeling like I had let the team down.
And I can't even remember why. I cannot remember why.
I think I'd just worked a reallylong day.

(39:04):
And then Rhea posted on LinkedInaround how much of A change that
Jackie and I have made to her inher personal and professional
life. And I'm multitasking right now.
As as I talk, I've brought it upon screen in front of me.

(39:26):
And I want to share this becauseacknowledgement does work both
ways. And as leaders, we don't really
ask for it. We shouldn't.
Well, I feel like we shouldn't ask for it.
I feel like I see that in my team, but I didn't realize that
I needed it until reassured. This and she shared it.
More than just a role, it's a culture that grows with you.

(39:49):
Working as the BSA at Atoll, I've learned that no task is
ever too small. When you're part of a team that
sees value in every contribution, what sets that all
apart? It's the culture.
It's the kind where titles don'tdefine you.
Your voice, your ideas, your impact do.
And you can hear my voice is getting Crafly.

(40:12):
Collaboration is second nature here.
Whether it's sharing process improvements or brainstorming
new ways to work smarter, everybody is encouraged to speak
up and be part of the change. We even have a registry where no
idea whether it's too simple. Simple, because we know small
changes can lead to big wins. This mindset has shaped how I

(40:32):
face challenges. Instead of stopping at Roblox,
I've learned to ask, how can I make this easier for the next
person? And here's a life lesson I'll
never forget. That one gets me.
Improvement doesn't need to be continuous.
It could be meaningful Growth includes rest, pausing, and

(40:55):
reflecting. Because burnout doesn't build
excellence, balance does. Oh.
Brilliant. I know because.
Because. Yeah.
It is, yes. Yes, being an atoll transformed
me from someone who worked non-stop to someone who now
works smarter with intention andwith care, both for myself and

(41:19):
for the team. And it's the kind of growth I'll
carry for a long, long time. I both the moment with that one.
Now I was having a bad day and Ithink Rhea possibly might have
picked up on that because I hadn't talked to Rhea that day.
And Rhea and I talk daily about anything.

(41:41):
She's our business support assistant.
She does all of the things and Ithink her sharing her
appreciation that day really made me like it built my
confidence. I I all I could do with that was
hit the love heart icon. I had no words and even now I
don't. So she acknowledged the team

(42:02):
completely unprompted. No one asked her to do that.
No one expected that of her. She just did that, and she is
the person who is doing all of those quiet little minute, like
the minutes, all the little fiddly things.
So, yeah, that was the unexpected note of appreciation
that I got. It didn't just make my day my

(42:24):
week. That's had a profound impact on
me as a leader. And I've really listened to what
she said between the lines, which is a great segue into this
last. Thank you, Ria.
Develop with intention. Growth doesn't always mean

(42:45):
doing. Sometimes it means seeing what's
already working. Ask yourself, where am I over
committing out of fear that I'm not enough?
What's working really well that I haven't paused to celebrate?
Because most of us, If something's working really well,

(43:07):
it's working really well. We just do it.
We focus on the. Poop.
We don't acknowledge because it's a win done.
Move on, stop and pause and celebrate.
And what would enough look like right now?
And can I be OK with that? That is the hard one, I think.

(43:31):
Good enough for now. And then as Rhea said, continue.
I laugh because that the first part of that quote from Rita,
the improvement doesn't need to be continuous.
It can be continual is one of the first things that I said to
her on her first day because shekept saying continuous,
continuous, continuous. I probably picked all her up in

(43:54):
her interview. Yeah.
Continuous, yeah. And and that's resonated with
her so that she's like, well, this is, this is good enough for
now. And Rhea like us.
And this is a challenge I faced when we started.
Melissa is and and I was like Melissa and Ange, our 22,000 SME

(44:16):
are both facing that challenge now.
It's good enough for a version. One version One, yeah.
There is always room for a version 2.
How many iPhones have we got? How many Google Pixels have we
got? How many?
Yeah, Ford didn't stop at the Model T Well, actually keep it
going. What is good enough for now?

(44:39):
And can I be OK with that and come back later?
And look, if you don't come, if you don't come back later, then
it was good enough in the 1st place.
So I want everyone to write downone thing that they've done
recently that made a positive difference, regardless of
whether anyone else even noticed.

(45:01):
Do you reckon that that's you, Jackie?
I don't know, I'm trying to think a positive difference to
others. A positive difference period.
And I I was thinking about this and that's why I wrote it in
here, because your facial expressions for those who are
watching on rather than listening were exactly what was
going through my head. I'm thinking of all of these

(45:24):
negativity. And again, that's that's a real
I shared with you the other day about that positive, like our
body of our brain feeds off thatnegative mental energy and it re
literally rewires itself to the negative.
So I'm quite conscious of tryingto have like, there's a lot I
could be miserable about and stressed about and upset about

(45:47):
and I could crawl into a corner right now, but I don't want to
do that. I don't want to do that.
So I'm trying to have these positive thoughts and mindsets
and I'm being that person and trying to make other people
around me do it. But this is really hard.
This is not an easy sounds easy,but it's it's not it's easy for

(46:12):
someone else to tell you about the positive differences that
you've made and you'd go, Oh yeah, light bulb.
Thank you, Rhea. And that's why acknowledge and
appreciate is important. Exactly, exactly.
But how often do you not only acknowledge, but how often do
you notice the only positive impacts that you're having on on

(46:35):
other people? I'm, I'm struggling and I think
now that you've mentioned it like it might be able to, and
now that I'm aware of it and what I do for the rest of the
day, I might be able to pick something.
But yeah, it's very, it is very difficult to remember for me

(46:57):
anyway. I'm not.
I'm not saying that's not the same for everyone.
But it's not even remembering. It's in that moment again, like
I'm going to use Rea and all VAEAPAS out there for executive
leadership. And that's where I started my
admin career was as APA in that moment.

(47:18):
Part of your job is just is just, and so many people think
of it that way and it really irks me is just sorting emails
or accepting or taking phone calls.
It's just that, but that makes such a positive difference to
the leader and the person that you're working with.

(47:40):
And they might not acknowledge that, but you have saved them 5
minutes. And that 5 minutes could be 5
minutes spent on improving the business, 5 minutes more that
they get to spend with their family at the end of the day.
So there's so many little, little wins in here that you
don't realize. But again, coming back to the

(48:03):
developing side of that, the developing with the intention is
don't just do something for the sake of doing it.
Don't over commit, don't don't over work things just because.
Really be intentional about where you are developing your

(48:24):
team, what processes you're developing.
Spend the time focusing on building in tension around
everything that you do. And that will really kind of
bring back that loop. And again, I think I'm pretty
sure somewhere in the back of myhead I've got like an image of
Rachel again saying that somewhere along the way.

(48:48):
It's a word that we've adopted here since we brought Hazel onto
the team. Intention is one of her favorite
words. So yeah, really be intentional
about everything that you do. So, yeah, so there's a lot to
unpack there today. And I think, as I said, for me,
this model has been really helpful on reflection around

(49:12):
where I've kind of come and, andhow I can and have changed as a
leader. And as you've mentioned before,
what I can do to continue to grow and improve and get better.
And I'm still working on that tacit knowledge.
The course development's a greatexample.
I'm building processes and againnow for them.

(49:33):
And it is, what are those, what are those gaps?
So I think, I hope that this really simple kind of process,
and it's not even a process, it's I think this is more of a
mindset will really help leadersand individuals to build a
little bit of confidence in mimeand their role.

(49:55):
And that I really again, cannot and not explain The profound
impact that that statement from Rach Dunn had on me is that you
don't need permission. You don't need anybody else's
permission. And then as you've said many a
time, good enough. He's good enough for now.

(50:17):
We can come back later. So those are my two key
takeaways I'd like to share witheveryone.
So Jackie, I'd love your thoughts.
I've done lots of talking today.I'd love your thoughts on on
that model that I prepared. Oh yeah, so I suppose I've
written some notes. That's enough.

(50:37):
I can. Remember, I can remember, that's
just what I do because yeah, there's been a few, I suppose
maybe light bulb moments more for me.
So I sort of did mention this. You talked about a work in
progress. And I've I've written it's
always a work in progress. And as I said before, if if

(51:01):
you've stopped learning and growing, well, you need to move
on. I'm sorry.
Like you're no use to yourself or no use to your workmates and
you're no use to the business ifyou're not a work in progress.
So and suppose maybe the take away with that is don't beat
yourself up because you're always, you know, you know how

(51:23):
they say, oh, I'll be happy whenI earn this much money.
I'll be happy when I have this car.
I'll be happy when I have this massive house.
But you're always looking for, for something like really, you
need to be content with the learning stage that you're at.
And no, there's always more to learn.

(51:45):
And to expand on that before youstep further, if you're no
longer interested in learning. So if you've if you've run out
of learning or you're no longer interested in learning, learning
doesn't about this doesn't excite you.
I think that's also a time to say next step.
Yeah. What does excite you?
What does excite you? Yeah.

(52:06):
What gives? What gives you energy?
Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about that
negativity and I think that's the process I'm going through at
the moment. I, I just love to be passionate
about certain things. And that's, that's the energy I
I want and and I want people around me to be.

(52:26):
So I, yeah, don't have time for the other stuff anymore.
Yeah. So, so that's that always a work
in progress. I liked your hidden and tacit
work. I sort of combined that a bit, I
think. And we had a bit of a discussion
about that because it's probablya bit scary to me, to be honest,

(52:50):
to, to know that I was not awareof this hidden stuff that, you
know, I'll take, I'll take full ownership of the stuff I was
doing. And you know that that is scary
to think, Oh, you know, I've letmyself down.
I've let the business down. I've let other people down

(53:12):
because yeah, I. Really wasn't aware of it.
Yeah, I'm going to stop you there because you're saying
you've let other people down. And this is this is where
imposter syndrome kicks in. I'm letting people down.
I haven't done this. I'm not aware of this.
I've done this wrong. And that's not the case.
A lot of people in this space are in survival mode because and

(53:33):
you're doing things not just because you want to necessarily,
but because you have to and you're surviving.
And I think that's something that I didn't acknowledge here.
So the the T and the edge, the trace and the highlight really
will help you come out of that survival mode and give you
visibility to kind of go, well, actually this is not a me

(53:54):
problem. This is the situation that I'm
in and this is giving me the power to be able to reflect and
fix this, because you can't fix what you don't realize is
broken. And that's reminded me, you know
the resource register. I created a new made better.

(54:17):
Didn't we have a column or didn't you add a column for
yourself? This is what I enjoy doing or
this is what I wanted. So that that goes right back to
what you just said by by extracting all of these minute
tasks. Remember, it wasn't a, it's not
a project like pay invoices. It's what are the individual

(54:40):
tasks. Well, what lights you up?
This, this, this, this, this, this is crap.
I don't want to do this crap anymore.
And I think they're actually thewords that we use and this is
mine not letting go, little things like that.
That's right. It helped to, yeah, uncover

(55:01):
those things. So yeah, it was a, an accidental
learning process for sure. That resource register.
I've got a few more things. Is that all?
Right. Yeah, go for.
It I like your wording. Allowed to make decisions.
I think that word allowed is really important.

(55:23):
I don't know, is that equip the team that was under E equip the
team. Yeah.
So, and I think that's where we said that that's quite a
delicate part of the thread, that one, because, yeah, it's a
it's a constant in its own right.

(55:44):
This whole acknowledge and appreciate, yeah, is under
undervalued, I think. And yeah, it's something because
as you said it, you know, I reflected on me and said, have I
done that recently? I know I do it sometimes, but
some again, you get so wrapped up in your own crap and survival

(56:08):
mode that you forget about yeah,the people that you're leading
and they're going through their own crap.
So that whole acknowledge and appreciate and you and you, you
shared what a difference it madefor you when Ria put that post

(56:29):
up. So, so as a leader, it sort of
was reversed on you so you can see how important it is for us
as leaders and anyone that's listening to acknowledge and
appreciate. So you've just highlighted
another moment there for me. There was kind of that reverse

(56:50):
and in that acknowledge and appreciate again, I'm so glad
that we have a team who is comfortable with sharing their
thoughts and their feelings withus.
And as part of all of this, me drowning trying to do
everything. Somebody went to Jackie and
said, actually, I feel like I'm not doing everything.
Kelly's really, really short with me.

(57:11):
She's I feel like she's like I'mnot good enough for this person
was because we use direct messages.
So with with that feedback getting back to you, you sharing
that with me. That wasn't the case.
It was me just, I'm have to respond to this person in this
moment. So I couldn't, I could, but I
wasn't slowing down and giving them the time to respond to

(57:35):
them. I was just responding to the
message, not the person. And now if I'm in a rush, I know
a lot of people don't like this,but I often do a voice message
so people can hear the authenticity in my in my voice,
in my tone, whether that's curiosity, support or whatever

(57:55):
that is, rather than interpreting the words which I
feel I'm I'm sending as an acknowledgement, but might be
read differently. So in that acknowledge and
appreciate it. You do need to slow down and
acknowledge and appreciate the person, not necessarily the

(58:16):
message. The task we out that's a a.
Mean place to separate it. And to be honest, I sometimes
prefer audio messages. I use, I use them quite a lot
because I find it easier to express what I'm myself verbally
than written. It's I just get frustrated.

(58:40):
It's just, let's just talk. I suppose it's that next closest
thing to talking and I suppose that leads into my last point
that I made is about making a positive difference.
So that acknowledge and appreciate feeds into that
making a positive difference as well.
I know you had it underdevelopedwith intention, but I could see

(59:03):
how it how it feeds into that cycle.
Yeah, yeah. Everything weaves together.
It is. It's all threaded together.
Absolutely, yes. So that, well that's all I had.
Excellent. So I will just quickly summarise
and then I will let Jackie do her lovely little handover

(59:23):
before I wrap up today's episode.
So just to summarise today's keypoints, I said moving from that
impostor syndrome and then leading with intention and a bit
of confidence. So go back, start with tracing,
trace what is tacit and find outthose things that only you know
that you could be sharing with others or or asking others to

(59:47):
do. Really equip that team.
Highlight your hidden work, makethe unseen visible.
Reflect on responsibility. Get honest about what you're
holding onto alone and what you could get rid of.
Equipping your team, and I've realized here, equip and
empower. Give them, give the team the

(01:00:10):
power, not just the tool. And the reason I use that word
allow, make sure that they know that they're allowed to make
those decisions is because we can all empower their team.
Everyone empowers their team, but give them permission and
allow them. Don't just empower is such a
buzzword. I feel, acknowledge, allow and

(01:00:31):
give them that power. Acknowledge and appreciate.
We've touched on that. Let people know that they're
seen and valued and that works both ways.
It really does make a big difference.
And finally, develop with intention.
Growth doesn't always mean doingmore.
It means seeing what's already working and working to do that

(01:00:52):
better or more efficiently by sharing those responsibilities.
So thank you, Jackie, for that. I'm going to let you wrap up
today with your little note and then I will share with everyone
what's happening next week. OK, OK.
So I suppose my big take away isacknowledge and appreciate.
And off the back of that, I wantto acknowledge and appreciate

(01:01:15):
the entire at all team because Iknow we've spent some time on
Rita because she's sort of was acatalyst with her LinkedIn post.
But and also you mentioned Rachel Dunn from girl director
might be good to put her business in there as well.

(01:01:38):
So yeah, on on that note, yeah, acknowledge and appreciate the
amazing at all team. And I'm going to say it and then
you're going to know why I'm saying it.
I was going to apologise for notalways being there and getting
stuck in my own crap. But you know, our, our team is,

(01:02:01):
is amazing and because they're so amazing it gives us the space
to continue to grow. So I don't want to name them
individually because I'm scared I'm going to forget someone and
then I'm going to be in trouble with the entire at all team.
You know who I'm talking about. So as always, before I hand it

(01:02:22):
back to you, Kelly, I'd like to close with anyone can follow the
standard. Why don't you be the one to lead
the standard? Thank you, Jackie.
That is a wrap for today's episode of Lever Standard.
I, I really do hope that that has made a difference or given
you all some insights as well. So I really wanted to get honest

(01:02:43):
about the moments that we all question ourselves and how those
moments can actually lead to us being stronger and more
intentional leaders. There's been a lot of light
bulbs over the last 3 1/2 weeks without Jackie here and I, I'm
going to run with that for the better.
I think I'm, I'm really excited for, for myself personally and

(01:03:05):
the team with what I've seen and, and the potential they
have. And I agree, Jackie, I've got
the visual of our Brady Bunch Zoom room.
And if I try to name them all, then we're going to be in
trouble because I'll forget somebody.
But absolutely, there's we've mentioned Ria today, I've talked
about Melissa and Rachel. But yeah, we have those team
members who just do things and then we have those team members

(01:03:28):
who are really vocal about doingthings as well.
But I do want to highlight, and I said it in the article, none
of the issues that we've mentioned today because we hired
the wrong people. We hired the absolute best
people. And you should all be jealous of
the adult team. And I love, I love working with
all of them. So yeah, this was all about how

(01:03:50):
we can help not just ourselves, but the team become stronger as
well. So thank you Jackie for giving
me the space to lead this episode and share something that
has been really close to home and highlighted a few things.
My own personal highlights this week, rediscovering clarity in
my own voice, quite literally. That was a bit of now watching

(01:04:11):
our team grow in their roles andget excited again and taking
ownership and learning. Most importantly, that
leadership means trusting yourself enough to let others
shine. And that's, that's not always
easy. So thank you everyone for for
joining us today. On a slightly different topic,

(01:04:34):
next week we are going to be back with another insightful
episode and we're going to be heading back into the ISO world.
We're going to be looking at a mid year ISO health check.
And are you still on track? So stay tuned for some more
details about that. We'll be handing the reins back
over, switching things back to the usual comfort zone for a
little bit. And so thank you everyone for

(01:04:55):
listening. As always, don't forget to
subscribe to share this episode.Leave us with leave us a review.
And until we send you next time,take care, stay curious and keep
leading the standard. Bye for now.