March 22, 2024 • 56 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Jemma Fairclough-Haynes, a once shy, academic child who evolved into a leading entrepreneur and gospel singer. We delve into Jemma's inspiring transformation from her beginnings in the Midlands, UK, through her ventures into employment law and business ownership. Her story celebrates the power of embracing one's roots, leveraging education, and connecting across diverse groups. Jemma shares her journey to leadership and how adversity fuelled her relentless drive for passion.
We explore the challenges of balancing anxiety with the thrill of performance, revealing how Jemma transformed her fears into opportunities for growth. Her narrative offers insights into overcoming job insecurity, embracing resilience, and the importance of networking. The conversation turns poignant as we discuss how Jemma's personal challenges, including redundancy and motherhood, propelled her into a career in employment law and shaped her into a powerful role model for her entrepreneurial daughter.
Join us for a story of empowerment, resilience, and the conviction that obstacles are just stepping stones to greatness. Tune in to connect with Jemma's remarkable journey and the lessons it holds.
Connect with Jemma:
Website: https://www.orchardemploymentlaw.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jemmafairclough-haynes
Email: info@orchardemploymentlaw.co.uk
Stay Connected with Maureen:
Mindsight Women's Network: https://bit.ly/3qvAzg1
Mindsight Store: https://www.mindsightstore.com
The Mindsight Academy: https://www.themindsightacademy.com/
Christian Women’s Leaders Guide on Decision-Making: https://www.maureenchiana.uk/christianfemaleguide
Articles on Brainz: https://bit.ly/brainz-dig
Book A Consultation: https://calendly.com/maureen-77/30min
Thank you for tuning in! If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure to hit 'Subscribe' to stay updated on future conversations.
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Stay curious and empowered!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
You're tuning into the Lead toExcel podcast, the hub where
science meets leadership andtransformation begins.
I'm your host, maureen Cheyanna, founder of the Mindsite
Academy, a trailblazer in theworld of neuro-leadership, I'm
(00:23):
an executive neuro coach,leadership transformer and a
neuroscience enthusiast,dedicated to empowering leaders,
entrepreneurs and changemakerslike you.
Every week, we delve into theheart of neuroscience to
discover how you can unleashyour potential, master your
(00:44):
brain, manage emotions yours andothers alter behaviors and
exceed expectations.
We're here to help you not justto survive, but thrive and
flourish in the fast-paced worldaround us.
We're about to kick off anotherhigh impact episode today,
(01:06):
diving into a topic that ispowerful, intriguing and has the
potential to shift yourleadership journey.
It's time to elevate yourleadership, to excel, and so
higher.
Let's dive right in.
I am so excited to be backagain with another podcast, and
(01:27):
today I have a dear friend ofmine I can call her a friend
because I've known her for solong and this has really been
something I've been wanting todo for quite a while.
Gemma, thank you so much forcoming on to Lead to Excel
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you, it's a pleasure to join the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Thanks so much.
Gemma and I live in the samepart of the UK, which is in Kent
, which is the most beautifulpart of the UK.
I must say, gemma, could youjust introduce yourself briefly
and tell us who you are?
And just a bit, because we aregoing to have an interesting
conversation today.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes, my name is Gemma .
I'm a faircloth Haynes.
I am an entrepreneur.
My main business is orchardemployment law.
We provide employment law andHR services to business.
We're based here in Kent, butwe serve businesses nationally
and even globally.
We have a few clients abroad aswell.
I've been growing that businessfor eight and a half years
(02:37):
nearly nine years, nine yearsthis year and, amongst other
things, my personal life.
I'm a gospel singer, I am amother, I'm a wife, I'm a friend
.
So yeah, keep myself busy.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You do, you really do .
Thanks so much for that, gemma.
I know you said you're anemployment lawyer, you're a
gospel singer and it'sinteresting that you've got
clients within the UK and outwhich I love to touch on
actually quite a bit.
But let's go back a bit toyoung Gemma.
So tell us a bit about you,about your background and you
(03:15):
know, because I want us to kindof understand how you got into
law.
So tell us about your childhood, about young Gemma.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, so as a child I was inherently shy.
In fact, I still tell peoplethat I'm a shy person.
What I should have mentioned aswell and I've introduced it
myself is that I'm also a publicspeaker and then so because I'm
a public speaker and because Ising, sometimes people think
there's just no way you can beshy.
But I am inherently shy and Iwouldn't like that as a child
(03:47):
very much.
A watcher would watch what'sgoing on, but if you put me on a
stage, I do what I needed to do.
I was, you know, I foundacademics fairly easy.
I would say, you know, noteverybody can say that, but I
found academics fairly easy andI used to use school as my.
It was the thing that I couldcontrol and lean into.
(04:08):
So I really enjoyed going toschool.
I grew up in the Midlands, soalthough I live in the garden of
England now in Kent, I usuallysay sunny Kent, although this
time of the year is not verysunny.
I grew up in the Midlands, whichwas wonderful in lots of
respects and very multiculturalsociety.
(04:30):
I'm on the Jamaican heritage, soit was very buoyant in terms of
culture.
My friends were from verydiverse backgrounds and I really
enjoyed being part of thatcacophony, a mixture of people,
and growing up that was quitenice and I think that helped in
(04:52):
being able to explain things topeople even now.
So you know, I talk to peoplefrom all walks of life and I
think those early years of beingable to speak to people from
different cultures or whoseparents didn't speak English as
a first language has helped mein my latter years.
And I have and had a hugeextended family.
(05:13):
When they say it takes avillage, you know more like a
city with us, but I have an, Ihave a huge extended family whom
I spent lots of time with.
We're dotted around, butprimarily in the Midlands, and
so you know I spent lots of timewith my grandparents, my
cousins, my cousins and mysiblings, my aunts, my uncles.
(05:37):
I'm the oldest child and Iguess I can even be the oldest
child that has had someinfluence on maybe you know the
way I think about things or theway I behave.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Thanks so much for that, jama.
You said something that I wantto pick up on.
You said education wassomething you found easy and
it's something you probably youknow.
You you mentioned the walk youcould, you had control over.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So my parents split up when I was quite young and
there was lots of moving aroundas a young child, but I felt
like going to school wassomething that was mine and I
could control.
So that was.
That was an environment where Ifelt, you know, entirely secure
.
I could own that.
I loved to read.
I was, I was saying, one ofthose children I don't know how
(06:27):
many of those children there areI've seen someone the other day
but I used to read thedictionary for fun.
I love language, so I would sitby the, the dictionaries and I
would read those in my quiettime at school.
So I lent into it and I had themost amazing head teacher in
primary school, mrs Pipe.
She was a lady from Barbados,which again was really unheard
(06:50):
of those times, because she wasa female head teacher, which was
very unheard of, and she was ablack head teacher, which was
very unheard of, and she justloved me for some reason and she
put me forward for foreverything.
So, even age six, I remembernarrating the school play and
apparently that hadn't been donebefore by a six year old the
(07:10):
whole school play, narrating itfrom start to finish, from
memory.
So I just learned the scriptand and and narrated it and it
was really under her direction.
You know little, Gemma, you cando this.
That gave me some of theencouragement to to be able to
do that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That is amazing, I think, one of the things you
said there.
You know the head teacher.
When you started talking abouther, I just smiled because the
impact that teachers have onchildren is just phenomenal.
People don't realize it.
You even remember her name.
You're talking about her andyou could see your face even
being when you startedmentioning her.
(07:46):
But you see, I love the way shegave you.
She believed in you and thathas probably propelled you even
more.
That's awesome.
So, gemma, in terms of talkingabout this whole aspect of
control, I find it fascinatingbecause there was a bit of chaos
from what you're describingoutside, you know, in terms of
(08:08):
home life and all that.
But you found an area that youhad control and you really went
for it and that's so powerful interms of, even as adults, what
we can do.
A lot of times, people focus onwhat they have no control over
and when you do that, you keepgoing down that rabbit hole
(08:30):
because you don't have control.
But I love the way you focusedon what you had control over and
I want to find out a bit more.
How did you manage to even dothis?
So what kind of gave you the?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I don't know to be honest with you, because I was
so young, Talking under the ageof seven, I did this.
I was so young and I don'tthink anyone said to me take
ownership of the things you cancontrol.
But I just did.
I had the confidence of givingto me by my mom and my head
teacher and the teachers, and soI just lent in.
(09:09):
Really, I think I thrived onpraise and they were very
complimentary the teachers andthe head teacher and some of my
family and so I lent into thatphrase and I can do more of this
really.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, I love the fact that you said that praise made
a difference and it's sopowerful because when you praise
, it's that dopamine, isn't it?
You want more, you want to domore.
How did your mom actually help?
I know we've talked about yourhead teacher, but what impact do
you feel?
So my mom has?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
always been overly I say overly very encouraging.
Anything that she says I can,you know I said I wanted to do,
she would say yes, you can do it.
Even when, I would know, getdown.
She probably didn't think thatshe would say yes, you know, if
I said I wanted to be anastronaut, she'd be like well,
and you can absolutely do that.
You know, even when I set upthe business, I remember going
(10:09):
to her and saying mom, I'mgiving you know, I'm giving up
my job and I'm just starting abusiness.
And she said yes.
Her face said no, but her mouthsaid yes.
The only thing she said to meis are you sure?
And then I said yes and shesaid okay, I'll support you.
And I think having that beliefhelped to give me belief in
(10:31):
myself.
Yeah, but I want to betransparent about that.
You know, I had one parent whowas incredibly supportive and
one who wasn't.
Yes, and I know that for somepeople they would adopt the more
negative and be like well, thisperson said I can't and so I
won't.
But I thrived on praise and soI lent into the praise and you
(10:55):
know they were both equallypowerful in terms of their voice
.
It's just the voice that Ichose to listen to.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Wow, that is something.
I love the fact that you reallymade that point, because a lot
of times we forget that there'spossibly a negative voice coming
, which could be from anywhere.
It could be from friends, itcould be from society, it could
be from bosses, anywhere.
But I love the fact that youbrought that up.
So, two parents, but one waspositive and the other was the
(11:24):
opposite, but you chose to leaninto the positive and it's that
affirmation, the praise.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
So how did you?
You know you went to school andyou know what were you thinking
of becoming at that time, andhow did we end up in law?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, so why law?
You know it's quite interestingbecause as a child I always
knew I wanted to be a lawyer.
I don't know how.
Apparently there was a program,something with the old Bailey,
my mom says.
I always used to look and say,mom, I'm going to be, I want to
do that, I want to be like that.
I, although inherently shy,have got really strong sense of
(12:05):
justice.
I've always had that strongsense of justice.
Sometimes it's good, sometimesit's not so good, but I've
always had that, always had astrong sense of advocacy for
others and I'm veryargumentative, you know.
You know, and I love the detailand I've got a good memory to.
(12:27):
That has helped.
So I always knew I eitherwanted to be a lawyer or a
singer, because I usually saymusic is my first love.
I knew I loved singing from avery early age and I either
wanted to be a lawyer or asinger and honestly I could have
gone down either route.
And you know, age 14, we movedto Kent.
(12:47):
By then I was singing in socialclubs.
I had someone approach me andoffered to be my manager.
I was told that, you know, Icould go to Sylvia Young's.
My mom, being from an immigrantbackground, was not on board
with that.
You were like I will drive youwell, not personally drive you,
because she doesn't drive butshe's like I will take you to
(13:08):
these social clubs and I will.
You know, you want to sing atweddings and whatever.
Fine, but your education is thekey and that's what's paramount
.
That's something you can do onthe side or afterwards, and so I
then thought what, if I can'tdo that one thing I love, I'll
do the other thing that I love,which was finding out about the
law.
(13:29):
So yeah, it was an interestingjourney and, again, should be
totally transparent.
Most of my teachers were onboard.
Most of them said yeah, this iswhat you need to do and this is
how you do it.
I did have one teacher in theMidlands, surprisingly, which is
much more diverse place thanKent was when I was growing up.
Teachers say you won't get todo it, you can't afford it, I
(13:51):
think you should think ofsomething else.
But he didn't know anythingabout me but, yeah, he was very
negative.
He was like think of something,lower your gaze.
Actually what he said.
He said lower your gaze, Ithink you should think of
something.
And I went home and I remembertelling my mom about that.
The next day she was in school.
(14:14):
The very first day.
But again I chose not to listento that one teacher and lent
into the teachers that said Icould do it.
So it was a verystraightforward journey Because
I knew what I wanted to do.
And if you know what you wantto do, it's much easier to get
(14:36):
there.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I think the fact that you are so, I think you've been
very focused on what you wantand when you want it and making
it almost like you kind of pavedthe way for yourself that this
is something I can control.
I'm going down this path, youknow.
I want to touch on the factthat you said you were
inherently shy or quiet as ayoung girl, and it just shows
(15:01):
that you can do anything youwant In spite of the way you are
, because, like you said, you'rea public speaker.
I want to kind of understandnow I'm going to come a bit to
the law later, but I want tounderstand how you've been
really shy has come out inthings like public speaking,
(15:23):
maybe when you were starting toget into public speaking, or
when you went into law and hadto maybe go to court or
something or even talk toclients.
How has that come out and howhave you been able to manage it?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So, although being inherently shy, I've always been
a performer.
So you know, and I've alwaysbeen into music.
So I started playing recorderage four.
You know violin, saxophone.
I sang very much, would be aperformer, but when I was doing
those things it's like I'msomebody else.
(15:59):
So it was quite easy to go onstage and to sing a song, either
as a solo or part of a group,or to play a tune on the
saxophone or a melody on theviolin and then step off the
stage.
That's always been okay for meto do and I've done it from such
a young age.
We had in the Midlands anorganization which would help
(16:23):
children from African andCaribbean descent in terms of
their schoolwork on a Saturday,that's, after their school, and
they also would do things likeon shows and go out cultural
things.
And I went to that as well andwe were always performing.
It just, it was just like goingto school, it was no different,
we would just always performing.
So again, that led itselfnaturally.
(16:45):
And then when I started goingto church and they asked me to
join the praise and worship teamas a backing singer, I just did
that because it was anotherelement of performing when they
asked me to believe that was adifferent matter.
I was like, oh my goodness,there's just no way I can do
that.
But once I start singing, I justfocus on the thing that I'm
(17:05):
enjoying.
And the same with once I startspeaking, whether that's, you
know, whether I'm advocating fora client or whether I'm public
speaking I just focus on thething that I'm enjoying, which
is the talking, the delivering,the information is like, you
know, helping someone.
What I don't like is when Icome off the stage.
That's the thing that I, evennow, after so many years.
(17:28):
You know I'm fine, I'll speakto 4,000 people, it's fine, that
doesn't bother me.
But sometimes I just want to beunseen.
When I come down and and it'syou know you feel people
gravitating towards you.
So you know, I manage it, Iovercome it.
I don't think anyone would evernotice that from the outside in
.
But again, being totallytransparent, that bit, that bit,
(17:48):
for me is the fear factor,rather than speaking to a sea of
people.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, that's, that's really great, and I love the
fact that you mentioned this,because I think even people
listening this is so importantbecause what you do is
especially when you mention thatwhen you focus on the subject
at hand, you focus on whatyou're speaking about or you
focus on the client.
It's that focus is taking thefocus away from focusing on the
(18:18):
actual matter at hand instead offocusing on the fear, because a
lot of times, what reallycripples people is when you
focus on the fear things thatcan go wrong but almost is that
your ability to get into a rolethat really helps, and I think
it's just something that is sopowerful that everyone that is
(18:39):
listening should really practice, because it takes you away from
you, in a sense, and anddiverts or distracts your brain
or focuses your brain on thething that you're speaking about
, on the thing that you'recomfortable with or the thing
that you enjoy, and then it thenthe fear, then has to go away.
But you're right, though, whenyou then come off, you come back
(19:02):
.
Yeah, just help us.
Then, gemma there, yeah, no, Itotally identify with it because
I'm quite similar, you know,very quiet as a young girl, very
shy actually, but you say, Ithink for me the reason I asked
you was because I sang in thechoir but my voice, you know, I
was always in the middle, sothat my voice doesn't come out,
(19:25):
because I don't have a singingvoice at all, but I just enjoy
singing.
But I think for me, when I thenwent into teaching and I had to
do a five minute presentation, Ithink that was one of the first
times that I would say that itwas very public in front of
people I did not know.
Oh my God, gemma, I nearly fellover, my knees were shaking and
(19:49):
I was horrible, but I kept.
I pushed myself to continue andI'm so glad I did, because that
actually helped me later, evenwhen I got into speaking.
It really helped.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, and I think you know and even as a mother I
encourage my daughter as well isit's inherently shy.
People don't think and peopledon't believe that she's very
good at, you know, putting onthat front, but she is also
inherently shy.
But I gently put her intosituations where she'll have to
speak, even if it's one on one,because I think that's life.
If you're going to haveinterviews, if you are going to
(20:24):
have to speak to a doctor abouta particular concern, it's
something that you need to helpyou, Even if you're not public
speaker.
It's just something that youneed and in the earlier you can
start it, the better.
That really is what has helpedme, because I started that so
early.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's so true, and I love the way you
said you do that with yourdaughter, and I hope we have
time to talk about what you'veactually how you've nurtured her
into even getting into businessat such a young age, and I
think it's just incrediblebecause, you see, I think that
having that skill as a youngchild, even for you, you can see
(21:01):
playing out as an adult,setting up your business.
When you then go to speak toclients, you can then get into
that role and do what you needto do, as opposed to going and
forgetting everything you weremeant to be saying.
So no, that's great.
So, gemma, why employment law?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, I hadn't been interested in employment, though
you know, wow, when I got a bitolder and started to think even
more about law, watching thingsfor myself, I was a fan of a
show called Allie McBeal, whichwas quite a ditzy young lady,
but she looked fabulous, and Ilike fabulous fabulosity, if
that's even a word, you know Ilike my shoes and I love that.
(21:47):
And she.
I think what I liked about herwas she was so feminine and
delicate, but yet thispowerhouse lawyer, you know,
whereas everything else I'd seen, if people were powerhouse
lawyers, they didn't have thatfemininity and that delicateness
about them.
So I wouldn't say I wasdelicate as Allie, but I like to
think I've still got some ofthat feminine energy going on
(22:09):
there.
And so, you know, I alwayswanted to be like her and I
wanted to do corporate law and Isaw myself working in the city
and I saw myself, you know,wearing a suit, because that is
all I had had ever seen.
But it's very difficult to getinto corporate law and to do it
well, you know, beyond this withyou, you know, law is like a
(22:29):
funnel.
There are thousands of studentsand then only so many get this
far and then only so many getthis far.
It's very difficult.
So one of the jobs that I gotwhen I was studying, when I got
the bar part time, was workingfor the insolvency service.
Before that I was a languagementor at school and a friend of
mine said there's a job at theinsolvency service.
I think you'd be really good.
(22:51):
And I said, okay, I don'treally know anything about it.
But make sense, I'll have alook into it.
They wanted someone with a lawdegree and it was good.
It was interesting.
I got to go through details ofbankruptcy and again, I am
inherently shy but I'm alsoinherently nosy and being able
to look through details.
(23:12):
I thought, oh, this isinteresting, and my boss at the
time had seen something in me,and within a few months he was
like I think you should dofurther investigation to.
What the further investigatorsdo is they look at companies
where you know people are doingthings that they shouldn't do,
phoenixing, resetting upcompanies and not paying their
debts, or just behavingincredibly badly, which leads to
(23:35):
businesses collapsing.
And I did that for companiesand really enjoyed it.
I became pregnant with mydaughter.
My husband and I had plannedfor me to be pregnant, and so I
told my boss and I had enoughmoney to survive until I knew I
was going to go on maternity.
(23:56):
We'd also recently bought ahouse, and so just everything
seemed right at the right time.
Well, within a couple of weeksof announcing that I was
pregnant, I was then told I'mgoing to be made redundant.
Wow, yeah, that was quitehorrific, you know, because I
hadn't planned.
We never had savings money issomething that I'm really still
(24:17):
just learning about and so itjust came at the wrong time, and
whilst I was looking foranother job, I came across a job
as an employment law paralegalwith a sole practitioner.
I went for the job and she saidto me I don't think I can
afford you.
I promised her no, you can, youcan.
I promise.
(24:38):
You know, I just want a job,I'll stay.
She was totally right.
Of course, she knew that themoment that something better
came along, I probably wouldhave gone for it.
And she said well, why are youleaving?
I thought, lady, I don't eatpies.
This is a baby.
This is a baby, isn't it, youknow?
I said I'm pregnant.
She says oh well, that's notright.
Why don't you?
(24:59):
You know, look at this, thisand this and consider pursuing
your employer.
And I looked at it and didn'treally do anything with it.
I thought I just I haven't gottime for this.
My main focus really is tryingto get another job and at the
same time it became quite unwell.
With pregnancy, I hadpreeclampsia which resulted in
(25:20):
my daughter being born almosttwo months early.
I was in hospital for a monthbefore that, so it wasn't my
focus, but it had just sewn theseed.
Really, employment law A littlebit interesting, you know.
I think you know.
If there is anybody who isconsidering a legal career and
you are younger, some of thethings that you need in everyday
(25:41):
life, like property, land lawand employment law, seem boring.
I've been honestly right aboutit boring, but actually you need
it in everyday life and whenyou start to use these things
they become interesting, youknow so.
So I, you know I have left thatjob.
I was made redundant and Istayed at home with baby for a
(26:01):
while and then my mum actuallysaid to me oh, I've seen, this
job is for employment law andit's working from home.
And this is 2010.
This is before working fromhome was a thing, was a thing
yeah.
You know the company is based inManchester.
I think you should go for itand I'm kind of like.
You know, this belief in me hasgone ridiculous.
(26:21):
Now I don't know anything aboutemployment law, you know.
This unwavering belief is justridiculous.
That's so cool, though I lovethat and she says oh, you can do
it.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Dress up, so we need that.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Everyone needs a JMS mum in their lives, I know, but
sometimes I'm like, come on, Imean, it's not the same thing,
this is not what I've studied.
So I distinctly remember I puton these red patent patent shoes
and I had on the dark suit andremember saying to my husband
you know what, if nothing else,they're going to remember the
lady had on red shoes.
I know everyone else will justdress.
(27:03):
You know, according to thebrief, yeah, we did black shoes.
I was like they're going toremember the lady with the red
shoes and I went into theinterview with a panel of two
and the woman was, you know, shewas smiling at me.
I think she liked my shoes morethan anything.
And the guy, he just looked soperplexed, he was like what are
you doing?
Here he's like you're the leastqualified.
(27:25):
You've got no experience.
Do you even know what an ET1 is?
An ET1?
is a claim form and I was like,no, but I'm teachable.
I literally sat back and wenthuh.
So you know, a couple of weekslater I got before saying Gemma,
I don't know what you weredoing there and I'm thinking
(27:45):
this is going to be.
You didn't get the job, he goes, but you've got fire in your
belly.
We just like that.
You're tenacious and you'reteachable.
Obviously, we can't offer youthe salary that was on the ad,
but we'll take you on as atrainee.
And so that's what I did.
I started as a trainee anddeveloped a love for it.
(28:09):
To be fair, I really enjoy whatI do.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's fantastic.
A lot of lessons there,actually, because it's you know,
we hear this all the time and Isee it in my job, where a lot
of times people rule themselvesout.
In fact, I was talking tosomeone recently and you know
about it going for a job and shesaid, see, I'm being realistic,
I won't get it, so there's nopoint, and that just
(28:35):
automatically she's ruledherself out.
I love the fact that you arenot qualified.
You didn't know anything aboutit, but it went there with that
belief that you know what Iwould go, but at least, if
nothing else, they'll rememberme, and that takes the pressure
away automatically.
And the fact that you even said, see, I'm teachable.
(28:58):
It's that confidence.
And the confidence comes whenyou don't put the pressure of oh
, what if I don't get it, whatif this, what if this?
It's just going, you know what,I'll do my best, I'll just be
me.
And that just relax.
I'd say it relaxes your brain.
Then your cautious brain cankick in and do its thing, which
is just being free, just beingnormal.
(29:20):
And that's when not gets allreal powerful things come out.
Because telling someone thatyou're teachable when you really
had no clue about the role,yeah, yeah, oh, that's, that's
really great.
So you went into this.
How long were you in that rolefor?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
about four years not very long, about four years.
I did really well within thatfour years, you know, within six
months they put me up to thesalary that they applied for.
Wow, six months.
Yeah, I had quite a few.
I had a good mentor though, youknow, to again being totally
transparent.
They assigned me a mentor whowas really good.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I knew that Was your mentor in the company.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yes, but again, this is from working from home.
Before working from home was athing we didn't even do.
Zoom I didn't do.
I don't even think Zoom was athing or if it was, we didn't
know about it.
We didn't do telephone callsand sometimes he would meet me
in London for a coffee and I'dtake my file with him and we'd
talk about things like my cases,or sometimes he'd come along to
my cases with me.
(30:23):
But because I was interestedand I'm an avid reader and
learner, that's what I did.
I learned in, I read and Ilearned and just really enjoyed
it.
You know I did make mistakesalong the way.
Of course.
I remember losing my first caseand probably shouldn't have
lost it.
The case was good enough to winbut I wasn't good enough to at
(30:46):
that stage to win it for them.
But I.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
What impact did I have on you Losing?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yes, I don't like to lose, I don't like that.
Well, I just have to workharder next time.
And that's why I would look atevery detail.
You know, the next time I'd belike oh okay, I didn't know that
.
Well, now I'm going to lookinto every detail.
And that's really where I thinkI come into my own in my role
(31:14):
is, I love the loopholes.
I love, you know, there's aha,but did you know that I love
those things?
So, yeah, it's all in thedetail.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, thanks so much, emma.
So you know, I asked you thatquestion because a lot of times
when you know, that could easilyput somebody off the fact that
you know you came in on the backfoot, you don't really know
much, and then you've done acase which should have won and
then you didn't win and itstarts playing on your mind and
then it just hinders progress.
But what you said is I don'tlike losing, so now I'm going to
(31:50):
make sure that I do everythingI can, cross all the Ts, learn
as much as I can, and it'slearning from the experience as
opposed to the experiencecrippling you.
So, yeah, thanks so much forthat.
So how did you then navigateinto opening your own business?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Because that was never on the cards.
You know, because that's a risk.
Come from quite a risk aversecircle of people and you know,
yeah, that was never on thecards, but I have to be there a
little.
While I was at risk ofredundancy and my boss the same
one who hired me for my tenacityhe said oh, gentlemen, I'm
(32:31):
gonna meet you for lunch.
I started out of them and hesays we're making redundancies
is from Liverpool, hence myaccent.
You know we're makingredundancies.
I said ah, now I remember I'vebeen made redundant before.
Yeah, when I had my daughter andgot into awful debt, you know,
I didn't, I wasn't able to findanother job actually want for
the restoration of my pregnancy,and then I became ill and it
(32:53):
just set us back.
It took us a good few years toto catch back up and I think
that fear Just sent me into okay, well, thank you for letting me
know.
He says you're not gonna bemade redundant.
No, I said okay.
He says but you know, becausethis is what we do, I've got to
send you a letter to say you'reat risk.
So I says oh, okay, now I hadone, a case on a technicality
(33:19):
against a solicitor in Kent andhe had said admin, you really
liked it.
You know the people thinkyou're at each other, you're not
good fun, become friends.
So as we left the courtroom hewas like good, good job, you
know you're on LinkedIn.
I just said yes, I wasn't,didn't know anything.
I said, yeah, he said that MealLinkedIn.
(33:41):
I said okay.
So when home set up a LinkedInaccount yeah, have no picture it
the LinkedIn account did memore mischief than good, because
what would happen in If you init would?
People would be looking at my,you know, as I was an employee,
but people would go look me upand go my briefs rubbish she's.
She doesn't have any experienceor anything because I haven't
(34:01):
filled out the LinkedIn.
So in some ways it probablywould be better not to be on
there.
But okay, so I, I justconnected with him and I think I
had two connections him and oneother person.
So when I heard that I was atrisk of redundancy, I contacted
him.
I sent him a message and saidhi, don't if you remember me and
I beat you.
(34:22):
And then and then, and he gotany jobs going and he said I do
remember you because that wasthat was a good one.
That was, I don't have any jobsgoing but I could offer you a
platform to start off on yourown if you like.
And I thought, no, thank you, Idon't like.
I know I need security.
We are a two-salary household.
(34:42):
This is very important to me.
Thanks, but no thanks.
You know that's very politeabout it.
I said thank you, but no, thankyou.
I thought I'll just wait andsee what happens with this
redundancy situation.
And you know, true to my boss'sword, I wasn't made redundant,
so I continued to work.
(35:03):
But again, it continues tobecome more experienced and so
what would happen is I would getcases further afield.
So when I started, I I knowthat everything's about
relationships.
I don't know how I know that,but I've always known that and,
unlike some of the otheradvocates who could be quite
mean to the clerk, I was theclerk's best friend.
I was so nice to them.
I'm like hi, mike, how are youTell them everything about me?
(35:26):
They know I've got a baby, theyknow I've got a toddler, and he
would try and keep me in thelocation, the locality, which
would mean I could get there andback in a day.
You never had to do for twodays and because my contract
said I could be, you know, Icould go away for two weeks if I
needed to.
But because I had this goodrelationship, I would always
stay within the vicinity.
Well, once the way, once theymade this the first set of
(35:50):
redundancies, I'd start gettingcalls going.
Gemma, there's no one else thatcan do it like with your level
of experience, but you and Iwould do it, because what I was
contracted to do so but to I hadthat relationship with the
clock to know that he was.
If he's given it to me, there'sno one else.
Anyway, a year later I was atrisk of redundancy again and
(36:13):
I've got that same call.
Hi, gemma, this time of callnot gonna meet you, just telling
you you know you're at riskagain.
He actually said you're ourstar girl, don't worry about it,
but you're gonna get the letter.
So I thought, oh, okay, fine,I'll wait for this letter and
just see, see what happens.
I got the letter and I panickedbecause that's again.
(36:33):
I recall how I felt when I wasmade redundant.
Mark, I was pregnant.
It comes back does have thatsituation again.
So the first lady remember whenI pregnant I said I went to be a
paralegal for a year I wantedto be a paralegal for I found
her email and emailed her andsaid got some experience.
(36:54):
Now I can see your business hasgrown.
How about you take me on?
And I got an email from someoneelse saying this lady sold the
business.
Why don't you come in for anexploratory chat?
And I said, okay, I didn't know.
One exploratory chat was aboutit.
Okay.
I said okay, yeah, sure, fine.
(37:14):
So I went in and that turns outit was an interview, but a lot
of questions were around.
So how will you bring inbusiness?
And I Did you have your redshoes on?
No, no, no, I don't rememberwhat color shoes I would have
had on, but they weren't red.
So he said well, you know hisquestions were around how will
(37:34):
you bring in business?
And, like, in my role, I neverhad to do that.
I was given 25 to 30 cases andI just worked for them and I was
like I took that knife.
He said well, we like our staffto be more commercially aware
and bring in some of thebusiness.
He said also, have you thoughtabout starting on your own.
What strange thing to say no.
(37:56):
He says, well, why don't you?
But you do know we'd be incompetition, right, because this
guy was in Kent as well.
Yeah, he was like no such thingas competition, you should
consider it.
And I really just thought, youknow, if I'm not, if you don't
want me, just tell me, I cantake it.
But sort of smile and said,okay.
(38:17):
He said also, your CV is reallyrubbish.
He said if, um, because heasked me to send it to him.
He said if I just looked atyour CV alone, I won't be
talking to you.
He said but you know, when I'mspeaking to you, I realise
there's so much more to you andthe only reason why you're not
getting this job is because youhaven't got that commercial
(38:38):
awareness.
He said I'll tell you what youhaven't got the job, but I'll
redo your CV for you.
And he did add that.
What a nice thing to do.
He redid the CV.
He sent it back to me.
So if you are looking for jobs,you'll find something.
This is based on the informationhe had gleaned from me, and you
know what I learnt from thatwas and even now, I'll get
someone else to do mycopywriting and say what do you
(39:02):
think of me?
Not because I really getconcerned about what people
think, but I've noticed that wetend to think less of ourselves
or not be able to pick up onsome skills and attributes.
And he showed me that someoneelse could do that.
So I didn't get that job anywayand thought I'll just see what
happens.
And I wasn't made redundant.
And at that time my husband wasgoing do it, do it.
(39:26):
And I was like no.
So anyway, the third time round, another year later, I got
called again saying the samething Hi, gemma, you're our star
girl.
We're making redundancies,you're not going to be made
redundant.
This time round we're doinginterviews rather than just
selecting people.
So they probably got theirfingers burnt in the last two
redundancies.
(39:47):
I said oh, okay.
And I just started to think well, I wonder what if?
I wonder what voluntaryredundancy is?
And I realized I've beenholding onto the security and
thought but one day I might notbe the star girl.
Like what if I just fall out offavor?
And also because they keptgetting rid of people.
I was then going further and Iwas then becoming more
(40:09):
experienced.
I'm going to Scotland now andNorthern Ireland for a week and
I've got a young family at homeand I couldn't go to.
You know, my daughter had aschool play and I remember her
saying to me I said oh, you gotyour school play tomorrow.
And she said children withtheir filters.
She was like are you actuallygoing to come?
Are you just going to sendauntie?
And you know, they know how tohit me there.
(40:31):
And I thought, well, at leastyou've got auntie to come and
she loves auntie.
But it wasn't.
It wasn't mommy.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It wasn't mommy it wasn't mommy.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And I was like oh, so I just started to think about
the possibility of takingvoluntary redundancy and sending
an email saying what's thevoluntary, and they ignored it,
so I sent it again with a readreceipt.
It got read.
They ignored it and then Ithought I'll just go to the
interview.
Then I went to the interview.
I was giving all the rightanswers.
(41:02):
I know because I was gettingyou know.
You know I could tell from thebody language.
And you know, it was almostlike we'd we'd nudge, nudge and
then at the end of everyinterview they would ask you,
have you got any questions?
Okay, well, I said yeah, what'svoluntary?
What's the voluntary package?
And he said you don't need toknow.
And I said no, come on, what isit?
(41:24):
What is it?
Is that a terry?
Are you giving them the housepackage?
And he says you don't need toknow.
And I says this is my strongsense of justice getting me in
trouble.
I said, well, we both know thatif you're not even willing to
consider a voluntary package,that means you're cherry picking
people and that would beunfairly done too.
So you might as well just tellme what the voluntary package is
(41:48):
.
And in that instant I was like Ifelt them grace, I his whole
face behavior changed and hewent how much do you want?
And in that moment I knew therewas no going back.
Yeah, you know, even if I hadchanged my mind Exactly and
there was no going back.
So I named a figure I forgotall of my training, you know
(42:09):
named a figure which was nowherenear adequate and he said you
need to be gone within 10 days.
And I was like, oh okay, youknow.
Fine.
He said don't tell anyone,don't tell your clients, I had
cases.
Don't tell your colleagues.
You can drop the company car,drop the car back.
(42:30):
We'll get you a train ticket tocome back from Manchester.
You need to be gone within 10days.
And that's what happened.
And so by that time I thoughtyou know, this job security
thing's a bit of a myth.
I might as well give it a go.
It was never really meant to beforever.
I said I'll try it for a year.
I didn't have a year's money,so I don't know why.
I said 12 months.
(42:51):
I'll try it for 12 months andsee what happens.
And yeah, all the rest ishistory.
And still here.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Wow, wow, that's incredible.
That's incredible, I think, interms of the final push to find
out the package.
How do you mentally preparedyourself that you hadn't?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
No, I was simply.
You know, like lots of peoplesay, oh, you're so brave, and I
say I was just looking, I'velost my footing.
I was looking over the edge ofthe cliff.
I had not prepared myself.
I hadn't really thought aboutgoing into business at that
stage.
I thought I'd take thevoluntary and I would maybe get
another job.
Perhaps I hadn't, I justthought I'd ask.
(43:35):
I just thought I'd ask, but Iknew I've been quite a good
reader of people quite early onand I knew there was no going.
I knew in that instance, nogoing back.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's that's.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I suppose it was time it was time for you to do it.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
It's definitely it was time.
So now you set up.
You started in business.
You had no commercialexperience, but I think one of
the things you said before wasthat you know how to build
relationships.
So how did this play into yousetting up in business?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And you know, if you just bring us to how you set up
a few challenges, because I canimagine how many there will be
and where you're at now Well,the first challenge was that six
months prior to having thisconversation about redundancy,
my husband and I had agreed hewould go into self-employment,
and so that coincided, actuallyset up his business on the first
(44:31):
day I set up mine, you know.
So the first challenge reallywas how you survive on very
limited funds.
You didn't really have savingsother than what I'd, you know,
requested, which was notadequate.
So that was the first challenge.
And then the second one was howdo I meet people?
So, okay, fine, I'm good atbuilding relationships, but I've
(44:54):
never networked.
I didn't know what.
I didn't know what networkingwas.
I didn't know what a Chamber ofCommerce was.
I literally very, very green.
And my neighbor had built me awebsite.
That wasn't what he did, but hecould dab all.
He built me a website.
I knew I needed a phone.
I got 30 business cards that'swhat I could afford, just 30
(45:15):
here, 30 business cards andhonestly I thought the phone was
broken.
I thought that's why it's notworking, the phone's broken.
And I was talking to my neighborand I was like you know, it's
been a couple of months and I'mgetting quite worried and she
said why don't you try one ofthese business breakfast?
And I said, oh okay, I didn'tknow what that was.
(45:37):
I probably should have asked,but I didn't.
I said okay and just went backhome and Googled business
breakfast and what came up wasthe Chamber were having the, but
the Chamber of Commerce werehaving an event.
They'd have that classroominternational, where they would
have, you know, peopleexhibiting and I thought that
(45:57):
was a chance for me to sell mybusiness.
I must have been veryirritating, because I know when
I have a stand I'm selling tothe people on the stand and the
people at the pace of the stand.
So I went along there, you know, with my 30 business cards.
It felt good, it was a goodfeeling that moment.
And in the process they had thiswomen in business speed
(46:19):
networking and I just thought,give it a go.
I sat down and I spoke to twoladies, lisa Settle and Grace
Kelly, and they just took meunder their wing.
I was very, very shy and theyinvited me to a meeting in
Rochester, a women in businessmeeting, and I went along to
(46:39):
that and at the time it was asmall group, maybe not even 10
people.
But I thought this is amazing,you know, getting to get in some
help.
I treated it like studying, youknow.
I was like this is amazinglistening to people.
And it was only like 10 pounds.
I thought I can afford that.
I can afford 10 pounds ofmeetings once a month.
And then Grace had said to meat the end of the meeting you
(47:01):
know, do you like Indian food?
I'm a big food.
I said yeah.
She says come out for an Indiantomorrow at this time.
So I thought I had a client.
Actually I went home said to myhusband I think I've really made
an impression.
I've got this client put onsome nice shoes, went for the
Indian and turned out I wasn'tthat special.
There were 30 other people.
(47:22):
This was networking.
So you know.
I sat next to some people.
I said what are you doing?
This is what we do.
We eat and we get to know eachother.
And I just asked lots ofquestions and then I started
going to as many free or cheapernetworking events that I could
go to.
I would take a notebook I'vestill got all my notebooks and
(47:44):
anything with 10 minute speakerswould say about social media or
bookkeeping or anything, Iwould just write it down.
I thought what a cheap, greatway to learn.
So it came as a surprise to methat you know some months in,
someone then asked to speak tome.
I thought it was in trouble andsaid can you represent me?
(48:06):
And I was like wow, oh, wow,yeah, wow.
So yeah, continue to do more ofthat.
Really.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Oh, fantastic.
That's amazing Because Iremember meeting you.
This probably was about in fact, I remember hearing about you
before I met you, and this wasprobably about seven years ago
and I was told have you metGemma?
Do you know Gemma?
When I was going for networkingmeetings and I'm going, no.
(48:32):
So when I met you I went, oh OK, this is Gemma, and I think one
of the things that I noticedyou did really well then was
networking, and I love the factthat you were going there to
learn, to meet, but also tolearn and I think that's so
powerful.
I think what's really come outa lot in what you're describing
(48:54):
is your hunger for knowledge,and that is so powerful, Because
once you're open to learning,it becomes easy to pick up
things as you go along.
That's really amazing.
So now you're a team of howmany?
Five, Six?
That's incredible.
(49:16):
That is really incredible.
No, honestly, well done.
So who do you work withtypically?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
So small and medium businesses are smaller
businesses, the micro business.
They'll come to us for ad hocadvice, but we also work with
charities and otherorganizations that have got 300
to 400 employees, because peoplesometimes bring problems.
So you know we support them ontheir day to day advice their
documents, but also try to donot.
(49:45):
Representation Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
So, in terms of represented, you just represent
organizations or do yourepresent individuals as well?
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Just organizations.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Yeah, okay, organizations, okay, that's cool
.
And then I know you also doquite a bit yourself in terms of
public speaking.
So who, what do you typicallyspeak on and where do you go,
just so that if there's anyonelistening that wants, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So a few things really.
One is my journey, because wediscovered today you know,
everybody's journey is differentand sometimes you can learn
things from that.
So I don't go and tell peopleyou should do and you shouldn't
do.
I just share my experience andhope that somebody might learn
something from that.
I talk about being a woman inbusiness because I'm a woman in
business and some of the thingsthat I experienced and have
(50:32):
overcome or have embraced andenjoyed entrepreneurship and, of
course, anything that is aroundemployment law or people,
because that is what I do.
One of my popular talks is Icall it the three season
employment law, which is conduct, contract and current updates.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Wow, Thanks so much, Gemma.
So, Gemma, for people who arelistening that want to contact
you or need you, can you justgive us an example of what the
process is like and where they?
Can you know how they can reachout to you?
I'll put everything.
I'll put all your details inthe description as well.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
So I do quite a bit on LinkedIn.
So if you find me, gemma, youcan find me there, connect with
me and send me a message there.
Alternatively, you can email mybusiness at info at
whatchiffinformantlawcouk.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Thank you so much, gemma.
So I think I've got one morequestion that I want to kind of
push a bit, because you'vedescribed a lot about your
journey, which is incredible interms of you didn't grow up with
a silver spoon in your mouth.
You really grew up from it.
It came from a challengingbackground, but you've made it
(51:49):
to where you are today, and howhave you passed this on to your
daughter just quickly?
And I really want to bring thisup because I think women,
parents need to realise theimpact that they can have on
children.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
So I think you touched on it briefly and
mentioned that my daughter hasher business.
She crochets and she's verymuch been a part of my business
from the age of five, really,Partly because I didn't have
childcare, so she would comeeverywhere with me, even
networking.
I would bring her with me andI've always explained what I do.
So why are you doing this?
(52:29):
I'm doing this because of this.
Do you want to be a part of it?
If she wants to, I give her asmall pocket money, but if she
wants to have extra money, shehas to come in and do the
shredding or the designing ofYouTube thumbnails, and I
imagine that just being in thatenvironment has helped her to do
her own business and veryfortunate in that I now have a
(52:52):
number of business friends, soshe's not just learning from me,
she's learning from you andeverybody else she sees and
she's asked them.
You know we'll ask themquestions.
So, yeah, we're in a similarposition in that sense.
Yeah, how old is she?
She'll be 14 next month.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
That's amazing, I think just that mindset, knowing
that she can, is incredible,because I see, you know, I
always say that the adults thatyou know you see in the
organizations today, it's true,it's the brain that they are
wired with as children, thatthey bring into the workplace.
So you see a lot of people whoare risk averse, people who
struggle with change, a lot ofissues, but if you can really
(53:35):
give this to kids at a young age, it makes such a difference.
Thanks so much, emma.
So I'm going to wrap this upand just say one of the things
you did say to me, I think, whenwe were chatting about this
podcast originally, was lifedoes not have to be perfect, and
(53:56):
if you just use that to wrap upand give us some word of wisdom
in terms of what you meant bythis and just bringing up
everything you've talked aboutto this, would be great.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
I think, you know, I've had challenges all the way
through my life, from a youngchild, young adults and employee
.
You know, and even as abusinesswoman, if you lean into
the things that you can leaninto, or even use those
challenges to propel you, Ithink it's even more powerful
than not having those challenges.
You know, sometimes people sayto me if you could do the
(54:30):
business again, but start withthat, you know X amount of
thousands of pounds, how do youthink you'd do it?
I'm like, I really feel likenot having made me go out there.
You know, put myself in thoseuncomfortable positions of
having to speak to people and,yeah, I really think that
they're not having, and some ofthe not so nice experiences
actually propelled me to dobetter.
(54:51):
So, yeah, don't think that youhave to come from a family or
have lots of funds in order toto succeed.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Exactly.
Thank you so much.
I think it's so powerful torealize that you can start from
anywhere and any situation andachieve what you want, and the
fact that what you've describedfor us today every year to be
told that there's redundancy andhaving experienced had a bad
experience before, it's almostlike your brain is in constant
(55:23):
fear.
But you chose not to be thatway.
You chose to.
You know, yes, it comes, butthen you could do something
about it.
What are you doing?
Making the most of thissituation?
And that bit that you reallypushed to find out the
redundancy package, I think isjust incredible.
It's interesting, but again,you embraced it.
(55:47):
It happened and you went for itand yeah, no, you've really
shared your whole self with ustoday and I really appreciate
that.
Gemma, thank you so, so, so muchfor coming on to Lito Excel
podcast listeners.
I'm going to put Gemma'sdescriptions down, so if you
want her to come and speak atyour event or if you want her in
(56:08):
terms of employment law, pleasedo reach out.
Gemma is amazing.
She really, truly is.
Thank you once again, gemma.
Thank you.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
You're tuning into the Lead toExcel podcast, the hub where
science meets leadership andtransformation begins.
I'm your host, maureen Cheyanna, founder of the Mindsite
Academy, a trailblazer in theworld of neuro-leadership, I'm
(00:23):
an executive neuro coach,leadership transformer and a
neuroscience enthusiast,dedicated to empowering leaders,
entrepreneurs and changemakerslike you.
Every week, we delve into theheart of neuroscience to
discover how you can unleashyour potential, master your
(00:44):
brain, manage emotions yours andothers alter behaviors and
exceed expectations.
We're here to help you not justto survive, but thrive and
flourish in the fast-paced worldaround us.
We're about to kick off anotherhigh impact episode today,
(01:06):
diving into a topic that ispowerful, intriguing and has the
potential to shift yourleadership journey.
It's time to elevate yourleadership, to excel, and so
higher.
Let's dive right in.
I am so excited to be backagain with another podcast, and
(01:27):
today I have a dear friend ofmine I can call her a friend
because I've known her for solong and this has really been
something I've been wanting todo for quite a while.
Gemma, thank you so much forcoming on to Lead to Excel
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you, it's a pleasure to join the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Thanks so much.
Gemma and I live in the samepart of the UK, which is in Kent
, which is the most beautifulpart of the UK.
I must say, gemma, could youjust introduce yourself briefly
and tell us who you are?
And just a bit, because we aregoing to have an interesting
conversation today.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes, my name is Gemma .
I'm a faircloth Haynes.
I am an entrepreneur.
My main business is orchardemployment law.
We provide employment law andHR services to business.
We're based here in Kent, butwe serve businesses nationally
and even globally.
We have a few clients abroad aswell.
I've been growing that businessfor eight and a half years
(02:37):
nearly nine years, nine yearsthis year and, amongst other
things, my personal life.
I'm a gospel singer, I am amother, I'm a wife, I'm a friend
.
So yeah, keep myself busy.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You do, you really do .
Thanks so much for that, gemma.
I know you said you're anemployment lawyer, you're a
gospel singer and it'sinteresting that you've got
clients within the UK and outwhich I love to touch on
actually quite a bit.
But let's go back a bit toyoung Gemma.
So tell us a bit about you,about your background and you
(03:15):
know, because I want us to kindof understand how you got into
law.
So tell us about your childhood, about young Gemma.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, so as a child I was inherently shy.
In fact, I still tell peoplethat I'm a shy person.
What I should have mentioned aswell and I've introduced it
myself is that I'm also a publicspeaker and then so because I'm
a public speaker and because Ising, sometimes people think
there's just no way you can beshy.
But I am inherently shy and Iwouldn't like that as a child
(03:47):
very much.
A watcher would watch what'sgoing on, but if you put me on a
stage, I do what I needed to do.
I was, you know, I foundacademics fairly easy.
I would say, you know, noteverybody can say that, but I
found academics fairly easy andI used to use school as my.
It was the thing that I couldcontrol and lean into.
(04:08):
So I really enjoyed going toschool.
I grew up in the Midlands, soalthough I live in the garden of
England now in Kent, I usuallysay sunny Kent, although this
time of the year is not verysunny.
I grew up in the Midlands, whichwas wonderful in lots of
respects and very multiculturalsociety.
(04:30):
I'm on the Jamaican heritage, soit was very buoyant in terms of
culture.
My friends were from verydiverse backgrounds and I really
enjoyed being part of thatcacophony, a mixture of people,
and growing up that was quitenice and I think that helped in
(04:52):
being able to explain things topeople even now.
So you know, I talk to peoplefrom all walks of life and I
think those early years of beingable to speak to people from
different cultures or whoseparents didn't speak English as
a first language has helped mein my latter years.
And I have and had a hugeextended family.
(05:13):
When they say it takes avillage, you know more like a
city with us, but I have an, Ihave a huge extended family whom
I spent lots of time with.
We're dotted around, butprimarily in the Midlands, and
so you know I spent lots of timewith my grandparents, my
cousins, my cousins and mysiblings, my aunts, my uncles.
(05:37):
I'm the oldest child and Iguess I can even be the oldest
child that has had someinfluence on maybe you know the
way I think about things or theway I behave.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Thanks so much for that, jama.
You said something that I wantto pick up on.
You said education wassomething you found easy and
it's something you probably youknow.
You you mentioned the walk youcould, you had control over.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So my parents split up when I was quite young and
there was lots of moving aroundas a young child, but I felt
like going to school wassomething that was mine and I
could control.
So that was.
That was an environment where Ifelt, you know, entirely secure
.
I could own that.
I loved to read.
I was, I was saying, one ofthose children I don't know how
(06:27):
many of those children there areI've seen someone the other day
but I used to read thedictionary for fun.
I love language, so I would sitby the, the dictionaries and I
would read those in my quiettime at school.
So I lent into it and I had themost amazing head teacher in
primary school, mrs Pipe.
She was a lady from Barbados,which again was really unheard
(06:50):
of those times, because she wasa female head teacher, which was
very unheard of, and she was ablack head teacher, which was
very unheard of, and she justloved me for some reason and she
put me forward for foreverything.
So, even age six, I remembernarrating the school play and
apparently that hadn't been donebefore by a six year old the
(07:10):
whole school play, narrating itfrom start to finish, from
memory.
So I just learned the scriptand and and narrated it and it
was really under her direction.
You know little, Gemma, you cando this.
That gave me some of theencouragement to to be able to
do that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That is amazing, I think, one of the things you
said there.
You know the head teacher.
When you started talking abouther, I just smiled because the
impact that teachers have onchildren is just phenomenal.
People don't realize it.
You even remember her name.
You're talking about her andyou could see your face even
being when you startedmentioning her.
(07:46):
But you see, I love the way shegave you.
She believed in you and thathas probably propelled you even
more.
That's awesome.
So, gemma, in terms of talkingabout this whole aspect of
control, I find it fascinatingbecause there was a bit of chaos
from what you're describingoutside, you know, in terms of
(08:08):
home life and all that.
But you found an area that youhad control and you really went
for it and that's so powerful interms of, even as adults, what
we can do.
A lot of times, people focus onwhat they have no control over
and when you do that, you keepgoing down that rabbit hole
(08:30):
because you don't have control.
But I love the way you focusedon what you had control over and
I want to find out a bit more.
How did you manage to even dothis?
So what kind of gave you the?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I don't know to be honest with you, because I was
so young, Talking under the ageof seven, I did this.
I was so young and I don'tthink anyone said to me take
ownership of the things you cancontrol.
But I just did.
I had the confidence of givingto me by my mom and my head
teacher and the teachers, and soI just lent in.
(09:09):
Really, I think I thrived onpraise and they were very
complimentary the teachers andthe head teacher and some of my
family and so I lent into thatphrase and I can do more of this
really.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, I love the fact that you said that praise made
a difference and it's sopowerful because when you praise
, it's that dopamine, isn't it?
You want more, you want to domore.
How did your mom actually help?
I know we've talked about yourhead teacher, but what impact do
you feel?
So my mom has?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
always been overly I say overly very encouraging.
Anything that she says I can,you know I said I wanted to do,
she would say yes, you can do it.
Even when, I would know, getdown.
She probably didn't think thatshe would say yes, you know, if
I said I wanted to be anastronaut, she'd be like well,
and you can absolutely do that.
You know, even when I set upthe business, I remember going
(10:09):
to her and saying mom, I'mgiving you know, I'm giving up
my job and I'm just starting abusiness.
And she said yes.
Her face said no, but her mouthsaid yes.
The only thing she said to meis are you sure?
And then I said yes and shesaid okay, I'll support you.
And I think having that beliefhelped to give me belief in
(10:31):
myself.
Yeah, but I want to betransparent about that.
You know, I had one parent whowas incredibly supportive and
one who wasn't.
Yes, and I know that for somepeople they would adopt the more
negative and be like well, thisperson said I can't and so I
won't.
But I thrived on praise and soI lent into the praise and you
(10:55):
know they were both equallypowerful in terms of their voice
.
It's just the voice that Ichose to listen to.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Wow, that is something.
I love the fact that you reallymade that point, because a lot
of times we forget that there'spossibly a negative voice coming
, which could be from anywhere.
It could be from friends, itcould be from society, it could
be from bosses, anywhere.
But I love the fact that youbrought that up.
So, two parents, but one waspositive and the other was the
(11:24):
opposite, but you chose to leaninto the positive and it's that
affirmation, the praise.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
So how did you?
You know you went to school andyou know what were you thinking
of becoming at that time, andhow did we end up in law?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, so why law?
You know it's quite interestingbecause as a child I always
knew I wanted to be a lawyer.
I don't know how.
Apparently there was a program,something with the old Bailey,
my mom says.
I always used to look and say,mom, I'm going to be, I want to
do that, I want to be like that.
I, although inherently shy,have got really strong sense of
(12:05):
justice.
I've always had that strongsense of justice.
Sometimes it's good, sometimesit's not so good, but I've
always had that, always had astrong sense of advocacy for
others and I'm veryargumentative, you know.
You know, and I love the detailand I've got a good memory to.
(12:27):
That has helped.
So I always knew I eitherwanted to be a lawyer or a
singer, because I usually saymusic is my first love.
I knew I loved singing from avery early age and I either
wanted to be a lawyer or asinger and honestly I could have
gone down either route.
And you know, age 14, we movedto Kent.
(12:47):
By then I was singing in socialclubs.
I had someone approach me andoffered to be my manager.
I was told that, you know, Icould go to Sylvia Young's.
My mom, being from an immigrantbackground, was not on board
with that.
You were like I will drive youwell, not personally drive you,
because she doesn't drive butshe's like I will take you to
(13:08):
these social clubs and I will.
You know, you want to sing atweddings and whatever.
Fine, but your education is thekey and that's what's paramount
.
That's something you can do onthe side or afterwards, and so I
then thought what, if I can'tdo that one thing I love, I'll
do the other thing that I love,which was finding out about the
law.
(13:29):
So yeah, it was an interestingjourney and, again, should be
totally transparent.
Most of my teachers were onboard.
Most of them said yeah, this iswhat you need to do and this is
how you do it.
I did have one teacher in theMidlands, surprisingly, which is
much more diverse place thanKent was when I was growing up.
Teachers say you won't get todo it, you can't afford it, I
(13:51):
think you should think ofsomething else.
But he didn't know anythingabout me but, yeah, he was very
negative.
He was like think of something,lower your gaze.
Actually what he said.
He said lower your gaze, Ithink you should think of
something.
And I went home and I remembertelling my mom about that.
The next day she was in school.
(14:14):
The very first day.
But again I chose not to listento that one teacher and lent
into the teachers that said Icould do it.
So it was a verystraightforward journey Because
I knew what I wanted to do.
And if you know what you wantto do, it's much easier to get
(14:36):
there.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I think the fact that you are so, I think you've been
very focused on what you wantand when you want it and making
it almost like you kind of pavedthe way for yourself that this
is something I can control.
I'm going down this path, youknow.
I want to touch on the factthat you said you were
inherently shy or quiet as ayoung girl, and it just shows
(15:01):
that you can do anything youwant In spite of the way you are
, because, like you said, you'rea public speaker.
I want to kind of understandnow I'm going to come a bit to
the law later, but I want tounderstand how you've been
really shy has come out inthings like public speaking,
(15:23):
maybe when you were starting toget into public speaking, or
when you went into law and hadto maybe go to court or
something or even talk toclients.
How has that come out and howhave you been able to manage it?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
So, although being inherently shy, I've always been
a performer.
So you know, and I've alwaysbeen into music.
So I started playing recorderage four.
You know violin, saxophone.
I sang very much, would be aperformer, but when I was doing
those things it's like I'msomebody else.
(15:59):
So it was quite easy to go onstage and to sing a song, either
as a solo or part of a group,or to play a tune on the
saxophone or a melody on theviolin and then step off the
stage.
That's always been okay for meto do and I've done it from such
a young age.
We had in the Midlands anorganization which would help
(16:23):
children from African andCaribbean descent in terms of
their schoolwork on a Saturday,that's, after their school, and
they also would do things likeon shows and go out cultural
things.
And I went to that as well andwe were always performing.
It just, it was just like goingto school, it was no different,
we would just always performing.
So again, that led itselfnaturally.
(16:45):
And then when I started goingto church and they asked me to
join the praise and worship teamas a backing singer, I just did
that because it was anotherelement of performing when they
asked me to believe that was adifferent matter.
I was like, oh my goodness,there's just no way I can do
that.
But once I start singing, I justfocus on the thing that I'm
(17:05):
enjoying.
And the same with once I startspeaking, whether that's, you
know, whether I'm advocating fora client or whether I'm public
speaking I just focus on thething that I'm enjoying, which
is the talking, the delivering,the information is like, you
know, helping someone.
What I don't like is when Icome off the stage.
That's the thing that I, evennow, after so many years.
(17:28):
You know I'm fine, I'll speakto 4,000 people, it's fine, that
doesn't bother me.
But sometimes I just want to beunseen.
When I come down and and it'syou know you feel people
gravitating towards you.
So you know, I manage it, Iovercome it.
I don't think anyone would evernotice that from the outside in
.
But again, being totallytransparent, that bit, that bit,
(17:48):
for me is the fear factor,rather than speaking to a sea of
people.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, that's, that's really great, and I love the
fact that you mentioned this,because I think even people
listening this is so importantbecause what you do is
especially when you mention thatwhen you focus on the subject
at hand, you focus on whatyou're speaking about or you
focus on the client.
It's that focus is taking thefocus away from focusing on the
(18:18):
actual matter at hand instead offocusing on the fear, because a
lot of times, what reallycripples people is when you
focus on the fear things thatcan go wrong but almost is that
your ability to get into a rolethat really helps, and I think
it's just something that is sopowerful that everyone that is
(18:39):
listening should really practice, because it takes you away from
you, in a sense, and anddiverts or distracts your brain
or focuses your brain on thething that you're speaking about
, on the thing that you'recomfortable with or the thing
that you enjoy, and then it thenthe fear, then has to go away.
But you're right, though, whenyou then come off, you come back
(19:02):
.
Yeah, just help us.
Then, gemma there, yeah, no, Itotally identify with it because
I'm quite similar, you know,very quiet as a young girl, very
shy actually, but you say, Ithink for me the reason I asked
you was because I sang in thechoir but my voice, you know, I
was always in the middle, sothat my voice doesn't come out,
(19:25):
because I don't have a singingvoice at all, but I just enjoy
singing.
But I think for me, when I thenwent into teaching and I had to
do a five minute presentation, Ithink that was one of the first
times that I would say that itwas very public in front of
people I did not know.
Oh my God, gemma, I nearly fellover, my knees were shaking and
(19:49):
I was horrible, but I kept.
I pushed myself to continue andI'm so glad I did, because that
actually helped me later, evenwhen I got into speaking.
It really helped.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, and I think you know and even as a mother I
encourage my daughter as well isit's inherently shy.
People don't think and peopledon't believe that she's very
good at, you know, putting onthat front, but she is also
inherently shy.
But I gently put her intosituations where she'll have to
speak, even if it's one on one,because I think that's life.
If you're going to haveinterviews, if you are going to
(20:24):
have to speak to a doctor abouta particular concern, it's
something that you need to helpyou, Even if you're not public
speaker.
It's just something that youneed and in the earlier you can
start it, the better.
That really is what has helpedme, because I started that so
early.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's so true, and I love the way you
said you do that with yourdaughter, and I hope we have
time to talk about what you'veactually how you've nurtured her
into even getting into businessat such a young age, and I
think it's just incrediblebecause, you see, I think that
having that skill as a youngchild, even for you, you can see
(21:01):
playing out as an adult,setting up your business.
When you then go to speak toclients, you can then get into
that role and do what you needto do, as opposed to going and
forgetting everything you weremeant to be saying.
So no, that's great.
So, gemma, why employment law?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, I hadn't been interested in employment, though
you know, wow, when I got a bitolder and started to think even
more about law, watching thingsfor myself, I was a fan of a
show called Allie McBeal, whichwas quite a ditzy young lady,
but she looked fabulous, and Ilike fabulous fabulosity, if
that's even a word, you know Ilike my shoes and I love that.
(21:47):
And she.
I think what I liked about herwas she was so feminine and
delicate, but yet thispowerhouse lawyer, you know,
whereas everything else I'd seen, if people were powerhouse
lawyers, they didn't have thatfemininity and that delicateness
about them.
So I wouldn't say I wasdelicate as Allie, but I like to
think I've still got some ofthat feminine energy going on
(22:09):
there.
And so, you know, I alwayswanted to be like her and I
wanted to do corporate law and Isaw myself working in the city
and I saw myself, you know,wearing a suit, because that is
all I had had ever seen.
But it's very difficult to getinto corporate law and to do it
well, you know, beyond this withyou, you know, law is like a
(22:29):
funnel.
There are thousands of studentsand then only so many get this
far and then only so many getthis far.
It's very difficult.
So one of the jobs that I gotwhen I was studying, when I got
the bar part time, was workingfor the insolvency service.
Before that I was a languagementor at school and a friend of
mine said there's a job at theinsolvency service.
I think you'd be really good.
(22:51):
And I said, okay, I don'treally know anything about it.
But make sense, I'll have alook into it.
They wanted someone with a lawdegree and it was good.
It was interesting.
I got to go through details ofbankruptcy and again, I am
inherently shy but I'm alsoinherently nosy and being able
to look through details.
(23:12):
I thought, oh, this isinteresting, and my boss at the
time had seen something in me,and within a few months he was
like I think you should dofurther investigation to.
What the further investigatorsdo is they look at companies
where you know people are doingthings that they shouldn't do,
phoenixing, resetting upcompanies and not paying their
debts, or just behavingincredibly badly, which leads to
(23:35):
businesses collapsing.
And I did that for companiesand really enjoyed it.
I became pregnant with mydaughter.
My husband and I had plannedfor me to be pregnant, and so I
told my boss and I had enoughmoney to survive until I knew I
was going to go on maternity.
(23:56):
We'd also recently bought ahouse, and so just everything
seemed right at the right time.
Well, within a couple of weeksof announcing that I was
pregnant, I was then told I'mgoing to be made redundant.
Wow, yeah, that was quitehorrific, you know, because I
hadn't planned.
We never had savings money issomething that I'm really still
(24:17):
just learning about and so itjust came at the wrong time, and
whilst I was looking foranother job, I came across a job
as an employment law paralegalwith a sole practitioner.
I went for the job and she saidto me I don't think I can
afford you.
I promised her no, you can, youcan.
I promise.
(24:38):
You know, I just want a job,I'll stay.
She was totally right.
Of course, she knew that themoment that something better
came along, I probably wouldhave gone for it.
And she said well, why are youleaving?
I thought, lady, I don't eatpies.
This is a baby.
This is a baby, isn't it, youknow?
I said I'm pregnant.
She says oh well, that's notright.
Why don't you?
(24:59):
You know, look at this, thisand this and consider pursuing
your employer.
And I looked at it and didn'treally do anything with it.
I thought I just I haven't gottime for this.
My main focus really is tryingto get another job and at the
same time it became quite unwell.
With pregnancy, I hadpreeclampsia which resulted in
(25:20):
my daughter being born almosttwo months early.
I was in hospital for a monthbefore that, so it wasn't my
focus, but it had just sewn theseed.
Really, employment law A littlebit interesting, you know.
I think you know.
If there is anybody who isconsidering a legal career and
you are younger, some of thethings that you need in everyday
(25:41):
life, like property, land lawand employment law, seem boring.
I've been honestly right aboutit boring, but actually you need
it in everyday life and whenyou start to use these things
they become interesting, youknow so.
So I, you know I have left thatjob.
I was made redundant and Istayed at home with baby for a
(26:01):
while and then my mum actuallysaid to me oh, I've seen, this
job is for employment law andit's working from home.
And this is 2010.
This is before working fromhome was a thing, was a thing
yeah.
You know the company is based inManchester.
I think you should go for itand I'm kind of like.
You know, this belief in me hasgone ridiculous.
(26:21):
Now I don't know anything aboutemployment law, you know.
This unwavering belief is justridiculous.
That's so cool, though I lovethat and she says oh, you can do
it.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Dress up, so we need that.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Everyone needs a JMS mum in their lives, I know, but
sometimes I'm like, come on, Imean, it's not the same thing,
this is not what I've studied.
So I distinctly remember I puton these red patent patent shoes
and I had on the dark suit andremember saying to my husband
you know what, if nothing else,they're going to remember the
lady had on red shoes.
I know everyone else will justdress.
(27:03):
You know, according to thebrief, yeah, we did black shoes.
I was like they're going toremember the lady with the red
shoes and I went into theinterview with a panel of two
and the woman was, you know, shewas smiling at me.
I think she liked my shoes morethan anything.
And the guy, he just looked soperplexed, he was like what are
you doing?
Here he's like you're the leastqualified.
(27:25):
You've got no experience.
Do you even know what an ET1 is?
An ET1?
is a claim form and I was like,no, but I'm teachable.
I literally sat back and wenthuh.
So you know, a couple of weekslater I got before saying Gemma,
I don't know what you weredoing there and I'm thinking
(27:45):
this is going to be.
You didn't get the job, he goes, but you've got fire in your
belly.
We just like that.
You're tenacious and you'reteachable.
Obviously, we can't offer youthe salary that was on the ad,
but we'll take you on as atrainee.
And so that's what I did.
I started as a trainee anddeveloped a love for it.
(28:09):
To be fair, I really enjoy whatI do.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's fantastic.
A lot of lessons there,actually, because it's you know,
we hear this all the time and Isee it in my job, where a lot
of times people rule themselvesout.
In fact, I was talking tosomeone recently and you know
about it going for a job and shesaid, see, I'm being realistic,
I won't get it, so there's nopoint, and that just
(28:35):
automatically she's ruledherself out.
I love the fact that you arenot qualified.
You didn't know anything aboutit, but it went there with that
belief that you know what Iwould go, but at least, if
nothing else, they'll rememberme, and that takes the pressure
away automatically.
And the fact that you even said, see, I'm teachable.
(28:58):
It's that confidence.
And the confidence comes whenyou don't put the pressure of oh
, what if I don't get it, whatif this, what if this?
It's just going, you know what,I'll do my best, I'll just be
me.
And that just relax.
I'd say it relaxes your brain.
Then your cautious brain cankick in and do its thing, which
is just being free, just beingnormal.
(29:20):
And that's when not gets allreal powerful things come out.
Because telling someone thatyou're teachable when you really
had no clue about the role,yeah, yeah, oh, that's, that's
really great.
So you went into this.
How long were you in that rolefor?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
about four years not very long, about four years.
I did really well within thatfour years, you know, within six
months they put me up to thesalary that they applied for.
Wow, six months.
Yeah, I had quite a few.
I had a good mentor though, youknow, to again being totally
transparent.
They assigned me a mentor whowas really good.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I knew that Was your mentor in the company.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yes, but again, this is from working from home.
Before working from home was athing we didn't even do.
Zoom I didn't do.
I don't even think Zoom was athing or if it was, we didn't
know about it.
We didn't do telephone callsand sometimes he would meet me
in London for a coffee and I'dtake my file with him and we'd
talk about things like my cases,or sometimes he'd come along to
my cases with me.
(30:23):
But because I was interestedand I'm an avid reader and
learner, that's what I did.
I learned in, I read and Ilearned and just really enjoyed
it.
You know I did make mistakesalong the way.
Of course.
I remember losing my first caseand probably shouldn't have
lost it.
The case was good enough to winbut I wasn't good enough to at
(30:46):
that stage to win it for them.
But I.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
What impact did I have on you Losing?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yes, I don't like to lose, I don't like that.
Well, I just have to workharder next time.
And that's why I would look atevery detail.
You know, the next time I'd belike oh okay, I didn't know that
.
Well, now I'm going to lookinto every detail.
And that's really where I thinkI come into my own in my role
(31:14):
is, I love the loopholes.
I love, you know, there's aha,but did you know that I love
those things?
So, yeah, it's all in thedetail.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, thanks so much, emma.
So you know, I asked you thatquestion because a lot of times
when you know, that could easilyput somebody off the fact that
you know you came in on the backfoot, you don't really know
much, and then you've done acase which should have won and
then you didn't win and itstarts playing on your mind and
then it just hinders progress.
But what you said is I don'tlike losing, so now I'm going to
(31:50):
make sure that I do everythingI can, cross all the Ts, learn
as much as I can, and it'slearning from the experience as
opposed to the experiencecrippling you.
So, yeah, thanks so much forthat.
So how did you then navigateinto opening your own business?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Because that was never on the cards.
You know, because that's a risk.
Come from quite a risk aversecircle of people and you know,
yeah, that was never on thecards, but I have to be there a
little.
While I was at risk ofredundancy and my boss the same
one who hired me for my tenacityhe said oh, gentlemen, I'm
(32:31):
gonna meet you for lunch.
I started out of them and hesays we're making redundancies
is from Liverpool, hence myaccent.
You know we're makingredundancies.
I said ah, now I remember I'vebeen made redundant before.
Yeah, when I had my daughter andgot into awful debt, you know,
I didn't, I wasn't able to findanother job actually want for
the restoration of my pregnancy,and then I became ill and it
(32:53):
just set us back.
It took us a good few years toto catch back up and I think
that fear Just sent me into okay, well, thank you for letting me
know.
He says you're not gonna bemade redundant.
No, I said okay.
He says but you know, becausethis is what we do, I've got to
send you a letter to say you'reat risk.
So I says oh, okay, now I hadone, a case on a technicality
(33:19):
against a solicitor in Kent andhe had said admin, you really
liked it.
You know the people thinkyou're at each other, you're not
good fun, become friends.
So as we left the courtroom hewas like good, good job, you
know you're on LinkedIn.
I just said yes, I wasn't,didn't know anything.
I said, yeah, he said that MealLinkedIn.
(33:41):
I said okay.
So when home set up a LinkedInaccount yeah, have no picture it
the LinkedIn account did memore mischief than good, because
what would happen in If you init would?
People would be looking at my,you know, as I was an employee,
but people would go look me upand go my briefs rubbish she's.
She doesn't have any experienceor anything because I haven't
(34:01):
filled out the LinkedIn.
So in some ways it probablywould be better not to be on
there.
But okay, so I, I justconnected with him and I think I
had two connections him and oneother person.
So when I heard that I was atrisk of redundancy, I contacted
him.
I sent him a message and saidhi, don't if you remember me and
I beat you.
(34:22):
And then and then, and he gotany jobs going and he said I do
remember you because that wasthat was a good one.
That was, I don't have any jobsgoing but I could offer you a
platform to start off on yourown if you like.
And I thought, no, thank you, Idon't like.
I know I need security.
We are a two-salary household.
(34:42):
This is very important to me.
Thanks, but no thanks.
You know that's very politeabout it.
I said thank you, but no, thankyou.
I thought I'll just wait andsee what happens with this
redundancy situation.
And you know, true to my boss'sword, I wasn't made redundant,
so I continued to work.
(35:03):
But again, it continues tobecome more experienced and so
what would happen is I would getcases further afield.
So when I started, I I knowthat everything's about
relationships.
I don't know how I know that,but I've always known that and,
unlike some of the otheradvocates who could be quite
mean to the clerk, I was theclerk's best friend.
I was so nice to them.
I'm like hi, mike, how are youTell them everything about me?
(35:26):
They know I've got a baby, theyknow I've got a toddler, and he
would try and keep me in thelocation, the locality, which
would mean I could get there andback in a day.
You never had to do for twodays and because my contract
said I could be, you know, Icould go away for two weeks if I
needed to.
But because I had this goodrelationship, I would always
stay within the vicinity.
Well, once the way, once theymade this the first set of
(35:50):
redundancies, I'd start gettingcalls going.
Gemma, there's no one else thatcan do it like with your level
of experience, but you and Iwould do it, because what I was
contracted to do so but to I hadthat relationship with the
clock to know that he was.
If he's given it to me, there'sno one else.
Anyway, a year later I was atrisk of redundancy again and
(36:13):
I've got that same call.
Hi, gemma, this time of callnot gonna meet you, just telling
you you know you're at riskagain.
He actually said you're ourstar girl, don't worry about it,
but you're gonna get the letter.
So I thought, oh, okay, fine,I'll wait for this letter and
just see, see what happens.
I got the letter and I panickedbecause that's again.
(36:33):
I recall how I felt when I wasmade redundant.
Mark, I was pregnant.
It comes back does have thatsituation again.
So the first lady remember whenI pregnant I said I went to be a
paralegal for a year I wantedto be a paralegal for I found
her email and emailed her andsaid got some experience.
(36:54):
Now I can see your business hasgrown.
How about you take me on?
And I got an email from someoneelse saying this lady sold the
business.
Why don't you come in for anexploratory chat?
And I said, okay, I didn't know.
One exploratory chat was aboutit.
Okay.
I said okay, yeah, sure, fine.
(37:14):
So I went in and that turns outit was an interview, but a lot
of questions were around.
So how will you bring inbusiness?
And I Did you have your redshoes on?
No, no, no, I don't rememberwhat color shoes I would have
had on, but they weren't red.
So he said well, you know hisquestions were around how will
(37:34):
you bring in business?
And, like, in my role, I neverhad to do that.
I was given 25 to 30 cases andI just worked for them and I was
like I took that knife.
He said well, we like our staffto be more commercially aware
and bring in some of thebusiness.
He said also, have you thoughtabout starting on your own.
What strange thing to say no.
(37:56):
He says, well, why don't you?
But you do know we'd be incompetition, right, because this
guy was in Kent as well.
Yeah, he was like no such thingas competition, you should
consider it.
And I really just thought, youknow, if I'm not, if you don't
want me, just tell me, I cantake it.
But sort of smile and said,okay.
(38:17):
He said also, your CV is reallyrubbish.
He said if, um, because heasked me to send it to him.
He said if I just looked atyour CV alone, I won't be
talking to you.
He said but you know, when I'mspeaking to you, I realise
there's so much more to you andthe only reason why you're not
getting this job is because youhaven't got that commercial
(38:38):
awareness.
He said I'll tell you what youhaven't got the job, but I'll
redo your CV for you.
And he did add that.
What a nice thing to do.
He redid the CV.
He sent it back to me.
So if you are looking for jobs,you'll find something.
This is based on the informationhe had gleaned from me, and you
know what I learnt from thatwas and even now, I'll get
someone else to do mycopywriting and say what do you
(39:02):
think of me?
Not because I really getconcerned about what people
think, but I've noticed that wetend to think less of ourselves
or not be able to pick up onsome skills and attributes.
And he showed me that someoneelse could do that.
So I didn't get that job anywayand thought I'll just see what
happens.
And I wasn't made redundant.
And at that time my husband wasgoing do it, do it.
(39:26):
And I was like no.
So anyway, the third time round, another year later, I got
called again saying the samething Hi, gemma, you're our star
girl.
We're making redundancies,you're not going to be made
redundant.
This time round we're doinginterviews rather than just
selecting people.
So they probably got theirfingers burnt in the last two
redundancies.
(39:47):
I said oh, okay.
And I just started to think well, I wonder what if?
I wonder what voluntaryredundancy is?
And I realized I've beenholding onto the security and
thought but one day I might notbe the star girl.
Like what if I just fall out offavor?
And also because they keptgetting rid of people.
I was then going further and Iwas then becoming more
(40:09):
experienced.
I'm going to Scotland now andNorthern Ireland for a week and
I've got a young family at homeand I couldn't go to.
You know, my daughter had aschool play and I remember her
saying to me I said oh, you gotyour school play tomorrow.
And she said children withtheir filters.
She was like are you actuallygoing to come?
Are you just going to sendauntie?
And you know, they know how tohit me there.
(40:31):
And I thought, well, at leastyou've got auntie to come and
she loves auntie.
But it wasn't.
It wasn't mommy.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It wasn't mommy it wasn't mommy.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And I was like oh, so I just started to think about
the possibility of takingvoluntary redundancy and sending
an email saying what's thevoluntary, and they ignored it,
so I sent it again with a readreceipt.
It got read.
They ignored it and then Ithought I'll just go to the
interview.
Then I went to the interview.
I was giving all the rightanswers.
(41:02):
I know because I was gettingyou know.
You know I could tell from thebody language.
And you know, it was almostlike we'd we'd nudge, nudge and
then at the end of everyinterview they would ask you,
have you got any questions?
Okay, well, I said yeah, what'svoluntary?
What's the voluntary package?
And he said you don't need toknow.
And I said no, come on, what isit?
(41:24):
What is it?
Is that a terry?
Are you giving them the housepackage?
And he says you don't need toknow.
And I says this is my strongsense of justice getting me in
trouble.
I said, well, we both know thatif you're not even willing to
consider a voluntary package,that means you're cherry picking
people and that would beunfairly done too.
So you might as well just tellme what the voluntary package is
(41:48):
.
And in that instant I was like Ifelt them grace, I his whole
face behavior changed and hewent how much do you want?
And in that moment I knew therewas no going back.
Yeah, you know, even if I hadchanged my mind Exactly and
there was no going back.
So I named a figure I forgotall of my training, you know
(42:09):
named a figure which was nowherenear adequate and he said you
need to be gone within 10 days.
And I was like, oh okay, youknow.
Fine.
He said don't tell anyone,don't tell your clients, I had
cases.
Don't tell your colleagues.
You can drop the company car,drop the car back.
(42:30):
We'll get you a train ticket tocome back from Manchester.
You need to be gone within 10days.
And that's what happened.
And so by that time I thoughtyou know, this job security
thing's a bit of a myth.
I might as well give it a go.
It was never really meant to beforever.
I said I'll try it for a year.
I didn't have a year's money,so I don't know why.
I said 12 months.
(42:51):
I'll try it for 12 months andsee what happens.
And yeah, all the rest ishistory.
And still here.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Wow, wow, that's incredible.
That's incredible, I think, interms of the final push to find
out the package.
How do you mentally preparedyourself that you hadn't?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
No, I was simply.
You know, like lots of peoplesay, oh, you're so brave, and I
say I was just looking, I'velost my footing.
I was looking over the edge ofthe cliff.
I had not prepared myself.
I hadn't really thought aboutgoing into business at that
stage.
I thought I'd take thevoluntary and I would maybe get
another job.
Perhaps I hadn't, I justthought I'd ask.
(43:35):
I just thought I'd ask, but Iknew I've been quite a good
reader of people quite early onand I knew there was no going.
I knew in that instance, nogoing back.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's that's.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I suppose it was time it was time for you to do it.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
It's definitely it was time.
So now you set up.
You started in business.
You had no commercialexperience, but I think one of
the things you said before wasthat you know how to build
relationships.
So how did this play into yousetting up in business?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
And you know, if you just bring us to how you set up
a few challenges, because I canimagine how many there will be
and where you're at now Well,the first challenge was that six
months prior to having thisconversation about redundancy,
my husband and I had agreed hewould go into self-employment,
and so that coincided, actuallyset up his business on the first
(44:31):
day I set up mine, you know.
So the first challenge reallywas how you survive on very
limited funds.
You didn't really have savingsother than what I'd, you know,
requested, which was notadequate.
So that was the first challenge.
And then the second one was howdo I meet people?
So, okay, fine, I'm good atbuilding relationships, but I've
(44:54):
never networked.
I didn't know what.
I didn't know what networkingwas.
I didn't know what a Chamber ofCommerce was.
I literally very, very green.
And my neighbor had built me awebsite.
That wasn't what he did, but hecould dab all.
He built me a website.
I knew I needed a phone.
I got 30 business cards that'swhat I could afford, just 30
(45:15):
here, 30 business cards andhonestly I thought the phone was
broken.
I thought that's why it's notworking, the phone's broken.
And I was talking to my neighborand I was like you know, it's
been a couple of months and I'mgetting quite worried and she
said why don't you try one ofthese business breakfast?
And I said, oh okay, I didn'tknow what that was.
(45:37):
I probably should have asked,but I didn't.
I said okay and just went backhome and Googled business
breakfast and what came up wasthe Chamber were having the, but
the Chamber of Commerce werehaving an event.
They'd have that classroominternational, where they would
have, you know, peopleexhibiting and I thought that
(45:57):
was a chance for me to sell mybusiness.
I must have been veryirritating, because I know when
I have a stand I'm selling tothe people on the stand and the
people at the pace of the stand.
So I went along there, you know, with my 30 business cards.
It felt good, it was a goodfeeling that moment.
And in the process they had thiswomen in business speed
(46:19):
networking and I just thought,give it a go.
I sat down and I spoke to twoladies, lisa Settle and Grace
Kelly, and they just took meunder their wing.
I was very, very shy and theyinvited me to a meeting in
Rochester, a women in businessmeeting, and I went along to
(46:39):
that and at the time it was asmall group, maybe not even 10
people.
But I thought this is amazing,you know, getting to get in some
help.
I treated it like studying, youknow.
I was like this is amazinglistening to people.
And it was only like 10 pounds.
I thought I can afford that.
I can afford 10 pounds ofmeetings once a month.
And then Grace had said to meat the end of the meeting you
(47:01):
know, do you like Indian food?
I'm a big food.
I said yeah.
She says come out for an Indiantomorrow at this time.
So I thought I had a client.
Actually I went home said to myhusband I think I've really made
an impression.
I've got this client put onsome nice shoes, went for the
Indian and turned out I wasn'tthat special.
There were 30 other people.
(47:22):
This was networking.
So you know.
I sat next to some people.
I said what are you doing?
This is what we do.
We eat and we get to know eachother.
And I just asked lots ofquestions and then I started
going to as many free or cheapernetworking events that I could
go to.
I would take a notebook I'vestill got all my notebooks and
(47:44):
anything with 10 minute speakerswould say about social media or
bookkeeping or anything, Iwould just write it down.
I thought what a cheap, greatway to learn.
So it came as a surprise to methat you know some months in,
someone then asked to speak tome.
I thought it was in trouble andsaid can you represent me?
(48:06):
And I was like wow, oh, wow,yeah, wow.
So yeah, continue to do more ofthat.
Really.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Oh, fantastic.
That's amazing Because Iremember meeting you.
This probably was about in fact, I remember hearing about you
before I met you, and this wasprobably about seven years ago
and I was told have you metGemma?
Do you know Gemma?
When I was going for networkingmeetings and I'm going, no.
(48:32):
So when I met you I went, oh OK, this is Gemma, and I think one
of the things that I noticedyou did really well then was
networking, and I love the factthat you were going there to
learn, to meet, but also tolearn and I think that's so
powerful.
I think what's really come outa lot in what you're describing
(48:54):
is your hunger for knowledge,and that is so powerful, Because
once you're open to learning,it becomes easy to pick up
things as you go along.
That's really amazing.
So now you're a team of howmany?
Five, Six?
That's incredible.
(49:16):
That is really incredible.
No, honestly, well done.
So who do you work withtypically?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
So small and medium businesses are smaller
businesses, the micro business.
They'll come to us for ad hocadvice, but we also work with
charities and otherorganizations that have got 300
to 400 employees, because peoplesometimes bring problems.
So you know we support them ontheir day to day advice their
documents, but also try to donot.
(49:45):
Representation Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
So, in terms of represented, you just represent
organizations or do yourepresent individuals as well?
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Just organizations.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Yeah, okay, organizations, okay, that's cool
.
And then I know you also doquite a bit yourself in terms of
public speaking.
So who, what do you typicallyspeak on and where do you go,
just so that if there's anyonelistening that wants, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So a few things really.
One is my journey, because wediscovered today you know,
everybody's journey is differentand sometimes you can learn
things from that.
So I don't go and tell peopleyou should do and you shouldn't
do.
I just share my experience andhope that somebody might learn
something from that.
I talk about being a woman inbusiness because I'm a woman in
business and some of the thingsthat I experienced and have
(50:32):
overcome or have embraced andenjoyed entrepreneurship and, of
course, anything that is aroundemployment law or people,
because that is what I do.
One of my popular talks is Icall it the three season
employment law, which is conduct, contract and current updates.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Wow, Thanks so much, Gemma.
So, Gemma, for people who arelistening that want to contact
you or need you, can you justgive us an example of what the
process is like and where they?
Can you know how they can reachout to you?
I'll put everything.
I'll put all your details inthe description as well.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
So I do quite a bit on LinkedIn.
So if you find me, gemma, youcan find me there, connect with
me and send me a message there.
Alternatively, you can email mybusiness at info at
whatchiffinformantlawcouk.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Thank you so much, gemma.
So I think I've got one morequestion that I want to kind of
push a bit, because you'vedescribed a lot about your
journey, which is incredible interms of you didn't grow up with
a silver spoon in your mouth.
You really grew up from it.
It came from a challengingbackground, but you've made it
(51:49):
to where you are today, and howhave you passed this on to your
daughter just quickly?
And I really want to bring thisup because I think women,
parents need to realise theimpact that they can have on
children.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
So I think you touched on it briefly and
mentioned that my daughter hasher business.
She crochets and she's verymuch been a part of my business
from the age of five, really,Partly because I didn't have
childcare, so she would comeeverywhere with me, even
networking.
I would bring her with me andI've always explained what I do.
So why are you doing this?
(52:29):
I'm doing this because of this.
Do you want to be a part of it?
If she wants to, I give her asmall pocket money, but if she
wants to have extra money, shehas to come in and do the
shredding or the designing ofYouTube thumbnails, and I
imagine that just being in thatenvironment has helped her to do
her own business and veryfortunate in that I now have a
(52:52):
number of business friends, soshe's not just learning from me,
she's learning from you andeverybody else she sees and
she's asked them.
You know we'll ask themquestions.
So, yeah, we're in a similarposition in that sense.
Yeah, how old is she?
She'll be 14 next month.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
That's amazing, I think just that mindset, knowing
that she can, is incredible,because I see, you know, I
always say that the adults thatyou know you see in the
organizations today, it's true,it's the brain that they are
wired with as children, thatthey bring into the workplace.
So you see a lot of people whoare risk averse, people who
struggle with change, a lot ofissues, but if you can really
(53:35):
give this to kids at a young age, it makes such a difference.
Thanks so much, emma.
So I'm going to wrap this upand just say one of the things
you did say to me, I think, whenwe were chatting about this
podcast originally, was lifedoes not have to be perfect, and
(53:56):
if you just use that to wrap upand give us some word of wisdom
in terms of what you meant bythis and just bringing up
everything you've talked aboutto this, would be great.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
I think, you know, I've had challenges all the way
through my life, from a youngchild, young adults and employee
.
You know, and even as abusinesswoman, if you lean into
the things that you can leaninto, or even use those
challenges to propel you, Ithink it's even more powerful
than not having those challenges.
You know, sometimes people sayto me if you could do the
(54:30):
business again, but start withthat, you know X amount of
thousands of pounds, how do youthink you'd do it?
I'm like, I really feel likenot having made me go out there.
You know, put myself in thoseuncomfortable positions of
having to speak to people and,yeah, I really think that
they're not having, and some ofthe not so nice experiences
actually propelled me to dobetter.
(54:51):
So, yeah, don't think that youhave to come from a family or
have lots of funds in order toto succeed.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
Exactly.
Thank you so much.
I think it's so powerful torealize that you can start from
anywhere and any situation andachieve what you want, and the
fact that what you've describedfor us today every year to be
told that there's redundancy andhaving experienced had a bad
experience before, it's almostlike your brain is in constant
(55:23):
fear.
But you chose not to be thatway.
You chose to.
You know, yes, it comes, butthen you could do something
about it.
What are you doing?
Making the most of thissituation?
And that bit that you reallypushed to find out the
redundancy package, I think isjust incredible.
It's interesting, but again,you embraced it.
(55:47):
It happened and you went for itand yeah, no, you've really
shared your whole self with ustoday and I really appreciate
that.
Gemma, thank you so, so, so muchfor coming on to Lito Excel
podcast listeners.
I'm going to put Gemma'sdescriptions down, so if you
want her to come and speak atyour event or if you want her in
(56:08):
terms of employment law, pleasedo reach out.
Gemma is amazing.
She really, truly is.
Thank you once again, gemma.
Thank you.
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