May 14, 2025 • 29 mins
What if everything we've been taught about leadership success is backwards? Dennis Allen, former F-15 fighter pilot and six-time CEO specializing in corporate turnarounds, delivers a provocative challenge to leaders everywhere: stop chasing success.
Drawing from his diverse career spanning military service to Wall Street-backed corporations, Allen reveals how mission—not metrics—creates lasting leadership impact.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Leader Impact Podcast.
We are a community of leaderswith a network in over 350
cities around the worlddedicated to optimizing our
personal, professional andspiritual lives to have impact.
This show is where we have achance to listen and engage with
leaders who are living this out.
We love talking with leaders,so if you have any questions,
comments or suggestions to makethis show even better, please
let us know.
The best way to stay connectedin Canada is through our
(00:28):
newsletter at leaderimpactca oron social at Leader Impact, and
if you're listening from outsideof Canada, check out our
website at leaderimpactcom.
I'm your host, lisa Peters, andour guest today is Dennis Allen.
Dennis is a six-time chiefexecutive officer specializing
in turnarounds for WallStreet-backed corporations.
His CEO track includes defenseindustrials, pharmaceuticals,
(00:51):
software and building materials.
Specializing in leadershipstrategy and performance in
corporate settings, dennisspeaks regularly in businesses,
universities, trade conferencesand professional workshops.
Before his career his businesscareer Dennis was a combat-rated
F-15 fighter pilot in the USAir Force.
He has been a featured speakerat national conferences such as
(01:12):
the Global Leadership SummitEurope, the Oxford Centre for
Christian Apologetics, as wellas appearances on numerous US
talk shows and radio stations.
Dennis is the author of theaward-winning book the Disciple
Dilemma Rethinking and Reforminghow the Church Does
Discipleship.
Welcome to the show, dennis.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Amped to be with you, lisa, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
You know, when I read your bio, just a couple things.
We're reading Span of Control,which is about a female F-15
fighter pilot, and she talksabout what you can control and
I'm sure you know when you'reflying a fighter pilot.
You only got so much.
You know fantastic leadershipbook, so have you ever read it?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Carrie Lorenz I have not read the book until you
mentioned it to me, and she's aNavy fighter pilot.
I'm a righteous Air Forcefighter pilot, so I'm just
saying Navy fighter pilot.
I'm a righteous Air Forcefighter pilot, so I'm just
saying you know, Chevy Ford kindof thing.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm Canadian, I don't , I don't get that, but I
clearly, I clearly get the ChevyFord Ford girl.
And and also I just attended myfirst Apologetics Canada
conference.
So, wow, I loved it and I'mgoing to dive deeper into that.
So I'm excited.
I was interested to read thatyou spoke at the Oxford Centre
for Christian Apologetics.
(02:37):
I'm going to look into that.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
That's a great course Great crowd of people, a lot of
fun to go to.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
All right.
So we are going to start withyou telling a little bit more
about yourself, and really wewant to hear about your
professional journey and how yougot to where you are today, and
really what's important isthose pivotal moments.
We love to hear you know howdid you get through.
So if you want to share moreabout that, If you want to share
(03:06):
more about that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Well, I guess the honest answer to my professional
story is if you're familiarwith attention deficit disorder.
My resume kind of looks likethat.
Right, it's like this guy's allover the map.
I started after university inwhat was my dream job.
I was flying for the US AirForce and having a wonderful
time.
I got to be an instructor pilotand teach folks how to fly the
(03:30):
jet really well, and that waswonderful.
And then suddenly boom,medically grounded, my dream
job's just gone.
I've got a baby a week awayfrom being born, I've got no job
, and that was sort of the endof what I thought was my dream.
So that was a sort of a wake upcall.
And that story had one otherominous piece to it.
(03:52):
I was supposed to be dead infive years based on what they
had diagnosed.
So that's another story foranother day.
But what is interesting afterthat is stumbling out of the
military and trying to findwhere to.
I ended up becoming adark-hearted Wall Street
capitalist.
I started working for the WallStreet investment bankers who
buy corporations.
(04:13):
Sometimes those companies arein trouble and they need
somebody like me.
I get to come in as a gig,chief executive officer, and
help them get back on their feet.
So I've been all over the map,lisa, with a lot of different
things, and here I am talking toyou, which is just one more joy
for me, and unfortunatelyyou're stuck talking to me.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love that.
So you know it's interestingwhen you talk about you know the
ADD and that you're all overthe map in your career.
Did you ever once look at yourcareer and go like, step back
and look at it and go being afighter pilot?
There's a lot of crisis.
I mean you are probably dealing, and you know again, span of
control you can only control somuch.
(04:53):
So I look at there's sort ofthat transition of going into
what you called a dark carded,dark carded Wall Street CEO.
You know you are going into acrisis situation.
What's important?
Did you ever see that?
I mean I did.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, yeah, I agree with you.
You find that humanity has away to just sort of mess things
up.
For example, in the arena ofthe Wall Street folks you always
think about, here we have thesesumma cum laude, magna cum
laude Harvard, yale, princetonpeople who are organizing
businesses, but they always tendto find a way to really screw
up corporations, mess up theculture of the people, and that
(05:34):
means they're going to needleadership.
They're going to need peoplelike the folks who might be
watching this podcast to be ableto think about how do you step
in and help people go fromcrisis and chaos everyone's
hairs on fire into thinkingabout what really matters as a
leader to help an organizationor a group of people re-become
(05:55):
who they were intended to be,and that, whether it's flying an
airplane or running a business,that's what leaders do and
that's what I hope we mightexplore a bit today.
All right, which I mean wemight explore a bit today.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, which I mean I'll let it continue.
But I mean I just look at thetitle of your book the Disciple
Dilemma Rethinking and Reforming.
You know how the church doesdiscipleship, so I'm sure it'll
be related.
But anyway, so we'll continuethe questions.
I'll hold that for a moment.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'll park it over here the conversations that I
have with a lot of folks tendsto surprise people, and it goes
basically like this If I couldleave one line to haunt people
(06:43):
today in our conversation, itwould be stop chasing success.
Stop chasing success.
If you really want to haveimpact, if you want to be a
leader with impact, what youhave to pursue is a word that,
when I say this word, a lot ofpeople are going to roll their
eyes.
They're going to say, yeah, youknow what that word is.
I got it.
(07:04):
Let's move on to something else.
I'm going to say this word andif any of you glance down at
your phone or you walk away fromwhat I'm talking about, you
don't understand what I'mtalking about.
So that little provocative setup, stop chasing success and focus
on this really, reallyimportant thing that we call
mission.
The mission who are you as aleader?
(07:28):
Who is your organization?
Why is your organization?
This is the core of havingimpact as a leader, someone who
pursues mission.
That would be my pitch on bestprinciple that we want to talk
about.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, and do you have , like, where were you when you
know, when you thought of yourmission and you were an F-15
fighter and what was yourmission when you turned it
around and became thedark-hearted CEO?
Do you have another story whereyou I mean, did you ever have
to stop focusing on the successand focus on the mission, All
(08:05):
the?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
time You're really enjoying that phrase.
Dark-hearted too.
I've noticed you use that threetimes on me.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I've never heard it before.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It kind of scares me to think that somebody actually
might want to just call me tothat.
My wife does, but nobody else.
So, yeah, I would say that thetendency for all of us is to
default from what our mission isto looking good, being
successful, getting what we want, gaining the things that we're
after.
And they're always sub mission,they were below the mission,
(08:37):
they're under the mission andthey're not the mission.
And here's the problem.
The problem is, if we don'tpursue the mission, the mission
will evaporate.
So, whether you're like whenI'm, when I'm flying this
airplane called the F-15, it'sdifferent from Cary Lundholtz,
spandek Controls F-14.
That was a Navy interceptoraircraft the F-15.
It's different from CaryLundholtz Spandek Control's F-14
.
That was a Navy interceptoraircraft.
The F-15's an air dominancefighter.
(08:58):
Its job is to go find bad guysin the air and blow them up.
We used to actually have a jokewe would introduce enemy fighter
pilots to Jesus.
That was our mission, right?
So that was a joke.
It's a joke.
If anybody gets really madbecause I just used that joke
about us blowing up enemyfighter pilots, you should blame
Lisa, not me, because sheinvited me on this podcast.
(09:18):
But the point of it is yourmission is who you are, why you
are.
And in that moment, as a leader, you don't understand who you
are and why you are.
You can't convey to anybodyelse in the organization who
they are, why they are, andeverybody starts doing what
works for them, what succeedsfor them, and the organization
(09:39):
begins to collapse.
So let me give you one example.
If I can't, can I give you anexample of this?
I'm going to give you an exampleat the corporate level and at
the personal level.
At the corporate level, therewas a company that in 1999 was
worth $524 billion on the NewYork Stock Exchange.
At that time, that made it the13th largest economy in the
(10:04):
world largest economy in theworld comparing the nations.
They changed their mission froma why in other words, who they
were, why they existed into amission about what they wanted
to be.
They wanted to be and theirmission was boundaryless we're
going to be everything toeverybody.
It took them six years to lose90% of their value.
(10:25):
They went from $524 billion to$54 billion.
That corporation is a UScompany called General Electric
and that corporation hasstruggled to redefine who and
why it is, to start rebuildingits market value Tough, tough
change.
And that was because they losttheir mission.
Now that's a corporate exampleof you lose your mission.
Things get bad.
(10:45):
Let me personalize it for justa moment, because this is a
really, really important thing.
I think to be a leader withimpact For me personally.
I think to be a leader withimpact For me personally.
I was running an organization.
It was an avionics company.
We built electronic black boxesfor airplanes and I decided
(11:05):
that there was a particularperson in this organization who
didn't kind of get me.
He didn't get my vibe, didn'tfeel me, didn't go along with
what I'm trying to get done andI sort of shifted away from the
mission which is to producethese boxes.
Using these people who arereally smart and really capable
into this is supposed to makeDennis look really good and
(11:28):
really powerful, because thisguy was a bit abusive in the
organization.
He'd been tough on some womenin the organization, he'd been
very kind of corrosive to someof our morale and our ethics,
but he was excellent in histechnology.
Instead of trying to help thisperson become the mission I
decided my mission was for me tolook really good and take down
a bad guy, and what I really didwas I crippled my organization
(11:50):
for about six months because Ilost a tremendous amount of
knowledge.
I'm not advocating his morals,but what I'm saying is my shift
in mission lost my capacity tomake the organization thrive for
about six to eight months untilI can get things back together
again.
Mission's crucial, whether it'sthe organizational ethos or
whether it's the personal ethos.
(12:11):
For us as leaders, does thathelp with?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
what you're asking.
Yeah, yes, I think of the lastpodcast we had and I was
interviewing a female leaderfrom Croatia and we talked about
leadership and how it isdifferent.
And when you listen to, thereare so many similarities.
But we talk about we've builtthis up in our head and we want
to be.
(12:35):
We want to be the savior, wewant to be the.
You know, but it's in our headthat we're ruining things
because of our own thoughts, ourown goals, our own.
You know what we want to see us, how we want to see ourselves
succeed.
So that's a great.
I think it's always good.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
When you hear the story twice, maybe three, four
times, starts to sink in beincredibly challenging,
(13:15):
especially for women trying tostep into leadership roles in
organizations, because a lot oftimes, women feel like they're
being discounted as they stepinto these roles.
Is that true?
Is that a dynamic that you see,with women trying to build
credibility rather than some ofthe things?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And I don't think it's just I mean, I don't think
I'm just seeing it, I think it'sand it's not with everybody.
So you know there are, thereare strong females.
I feel very strong going intoum, to interviews or new
positions, new ideas.
I have spoke to other women who, and around the world, who feel
and and we also believe itcould be in our heads we are
(13:50):
building up that I'm not goodenough sort of attitude.
I need more credentials.
When I read the job descriptionand it's got 10 things listed,
I need eight out of 10 or I amnot good, Right?
So it's, it's a lot of what'sin our head, Whereas men are
like, yeah, I got five, I'm good, you know, and, and that's
confidence, and we need that,and we and then we just talked
(14:12):
about surrounding ourselves withother women who can yes, you
are good, so did that add up?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's wonderful.
That's actually terrific advice, because so many men live in a
silo.
I'm just going to be me.
I'm not going to engage orinteract with anybody else.
I'm supposed to be the smartestguy in the room and I think the
great value of women is thatthey do seek counsel.
That's wisdom, where, as guys,we can be kind of Luddites and
(14:43):
just lock ourselves up in ourlittle tunnel.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I love that we seek counsel.
Yes, we do.
Yeah, all right, so we're goingto move on to our failures and
mistakes, because I think we allknow we learn more from our
failures and mistakes than ourown successes.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So if you'd be willing to share a failure or
mistake that happened and whatyou learned from it, Well, I
think one of the failures that Ilike to work with a lot is that
story of arrogance I mentioneda little earlier.
I decided to take this personout of the organization rather
than trying to bring this personinto the mission.
(15:17):
That was a tremendous failurefor me.
I would tell you that, for mepersonally, my greatest single
failure methodology is myimpulsiveness.
Right, I want to get to the end.
I think some of the women thatI've mentored and had in
leadership roles have always, aswe've talked about, seeking
counsel.
(15:37):
Sometimes they may attempt tooverthink it.
Well, I am excellent atunderthinking it.
If you had my bride in here inthis room talking for a minute,
she'd say he's off the divingboard.
Then he's going.
I wonder if there's any waterin the pool I'm about to jump
into.
I think for women, they mightwalk out of the diving board and
go.
Well, we're this high up andthere's water in the pool, yes
(15:59):
or no?
Maybe we should or shouldn'tjump.
I'm like, oh, how do I reversethat?
That's a tremendous failure, Ithink and again that goes back
to mission failure.
If you don't understand whatyou're trying to accomplish, you
become impulsive, you becomesuccess oriented and you begin
to kind of negate the thingsthat are set up to make the
organization succeed.
That's one side of the polarity.
(16:20):
The other side of the polarityis you overthink it and you're
never willing to make a decisionor commit or get going right.
You can overthink, underthink.
So my failure is impulsiveunderthinking.
I might contrast that with in1999, carly Fiorina took over
Hewlett Packard and she saidover and over again she tried to
(16:45):
walk in that day to meet allthese employees and have all the
answers.
Yes, she didn't know what themission was, but she wanted to
have all the answers and shesaid that was one of her
greatest failures, becausepeople began to realize that she
was trying to be her and notthe mission and that was a
problem.
So those are that's.
You know my failuresimpulsiveness.
Maybe other people's can leanmore into being too much or too
(17:06):
much overthought in the otherdirection.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, as as I will speak for myself, um, overthink,
because you know we want to.
We want to think and think andthink until it's perfect, and we
, we, we love perfection, whichwe need to let go of, and we're
all working on that.
And then you just answered.
You know, um, the CEO walks inand she wants to have all the
answers.
We want to have all the answers, we want to look perfect, we
(17:32):
want to look like we know it, wehave it all together.
You know we have the answers.
So I think, a lot of ourlisteners can resonate with that
.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I think everyone can resonate with that.
But Colin Powell, who was thechairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff in the Bush administration, bush II, was a four-star
general in the Army and he usedto give leadership lectures and
one of his impact statements wasyou'll never know more than 40%
of what you need to know tomake a decision.
Get to 40%, make a choice.
(18:03):
I think that helps think bothsides, because I'm usually good
at 1% and some people want toget to 90%.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I love that think both sides,
because I'm usually good at 1%and some people want to get to
90, you know, yeah, yeah, oh, Ilove that.
So then we think of leaders who, if you want to be a great
leader, surround yourself withpeople who know more than you.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Wonderful advice.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
You've got a great team around you, but I think we
all think we need to be thesmartest person in the room as
leaders and we don't need to be.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
We need to lead the people.
I love that.
Lose the job security problemof be the smartest guy and hire
people better than you.
That's great advice, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, I'd like to think we're there, women, we
know to do that and we canalways use a little reassurance
or reminding.
Now I know that you are awareof leader impact and you know
that we want to go growpersonally, professionally and
spiritually for increasingimpact, and I was wondering if
(18:56):
you'd be willing to share apractical example of how you
bring in the spiritual, how itmakes a practical difference in
your life.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's a great question.
Let me start with thisstatement.
There is a tremendous amount ofinsignificance.
People are always trying tobecome significant.
I want to have fame and fortuneand power.
A real leader my suggestiontoday.
(19:26):
Maybe people get mad about mesaying it this way, but a real
leader doesn't want any of that.
A real leader is trying tounderstand terms like meaning,
purpose, identity.
In other words, what is mypersonal mission?
Why am I here?
Who am I?
What are my skills, strengthsand capabilities?
Spiritually, one of the greatestvacuums that we have in the
(19:50):
world today and I see this whenI'm around the world as well as
in North America talking withorganizations and people is
people don't know who they are.
So here's an example.
I would take Matthew 20, verse26.
Jesus is making a statementlike if you want to be a great
(20:11):
leader, you got to be a servant.
If you want to be first, youhave to be a slave, because the
son of man this is Jesus talkingabout himself didn't come to be
served.
This is weird.
God is not there to be served,but to serve and to give his
(20:32):
life as a ransom.
That's a beautiful definitionof a leader.
Now, if I walk in to yourtypical commercial organization,
and I quote this passage peopleare going to freak out, but I
want you to think men and womenas leaders.
Your job actually is if youdon't bring the spiritual to the
table, your personalprofessional is a vacuous
(20:56):
wasteland.
All you will ever want topursue is success and the things
of identity that aremeaningless.
Fame, fortune, power thosethings are meaningless.
There's plenty of books aboutpeople who got those and said
there's nothing there.
The top of that mountain isempty.
This spiritual idea is yourmission.
You have a mission.
You actually have a calling.
You have a destiny and if youget what this is like this quote
(21:18):
out of Matthew 20, verse 26,now you're starting to get who
you are and why you are, and nowyou start to have impact as a
leader.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Lovely.
I have a saying up on mykitchen table and it's not
biblical, but I mean it's notfrom the Bible to quote, but it
just talks about we are calledto use our talents.
We are gifted with talents andwe need to find them.
And you talked earlier stopchasing the success of others.
(21:51):
Everyone has talents.
Find yours, find your mission.
So I appreciate that.
That was good.
So at Leader Impact, we arededicated to leaders having a
lasting impact Lasting.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
So as you continue to go through this amazing journey
of your life, have youconsidered what you want your
faith legacy to be when youleave this world?
Yeah, my rehabilitation processfor the last 50 years has been
about trying to exit the idea ofsignificance and to encounter
(22:25):
the idea of what is my realmission.
Who am I?
Why am I?
So the faith legacy if I couldwrite my own script and my kids
tell me I'm not, they're goingto put my tombstone up for me.
But if I could write my ownscript, I would say this and
here's a weird phrase coming atpeople and write Lisa and ask
her what in the world did hemean by this?
(22:45):
Your legacy as a leader is tobe a disciple.
Who makes disciples.
Who makes disciples?
The joke the way I acronymthat's D W, m, d, w M D
disciples who make disciples.
Who make disciples.
Do you know who you are and doyou know how you're supposed to
help other people form anunderstanding of who they are?
(23:07):
If I could leave that behindimpacting one or two, who would
impact one or two?
I'm a pretty happy camper.
I have that real idea ofpurpose and meaning.
I think that would be my wishfor me if I could write my
script.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, I feel on my heart is the Great Commission,
which is what you're talkingabout.
Is it Matthew 27?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Matthew 28, verse 19.
You're right in there.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
As you say, that it just, and I believe that's why I
ended up at the ApologeticsCanada conference.
I am led by my faith, butapologetics is led by evidence,
that there is evidence tosupport the Bible and it's
incredible, and so I understandthe legacy you want to leave and
(23:58):
I do like your comment tryingto exit the idea of significance
.
We look at when we're out onlunches business lunches and
people have their phones out andit's like what, what are you
doing?
And they're scrolling socialmedia to look to maybe post
themselves having lunch or, youknow, posting that they are
significant.
(24:18):
They are somewhere where youwant to be or you know, we, we
let go of the significance.
That was a, it was a great lineI'm.
I wrote that down.
That's going to go on my table.
Exit the significance, the ideaof significance.
So before I ask my lastquestion, I want to talk a
little bit about if you can tellus more about your book, which
(24:41):
is the Disciple Dilemma.
But you also have a podcast, soI want to hear more about this
because I'm looking for a newone.
I mean, besides Leader ImpactPodcast, I'm looking for a new
one.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Hear more about this because I'm looking for a new
one.
I mean, besides Leader ImpactPodcast, I'm looking for a new
one which is a great podcast.
Leader Impact is a greatpodcast.
When I was in Oxford, a groupof CEOs were together with a
group of theologians in Oxfordand the deal was to be invited
to this.
You had to agree to give a talkor write a paper or whatever.
I said, yeah, sure, I can dothat.
(25:09):
When I got there, they saidwhat you're talking about with
discipleship and the history ofthe church and how we don't get
it as leaders in the church.
You're going to write a book.
And I said I don't write books.
I don't want to do books.
They said you're going to writea book.
So these theological thugs mademe write a book called the
Disciple Dilemma.
It's about leadership and howthe leadership of the church has
failed to understand, how it'scrippling making the mission
(25:32):
clear to people in the church.
In other words, the same thingthat screws up corporate
organizations has infected thechurch and dilutes our ability
to do what Jesus told us like inMatthew 28,.
This is your mission.
So we wrote the DiscipleDilemma.
If you want to see what we'reup to, you can go to
thediscipledilemmacom.
Dilemma is with one L for thoseof you who might want to be
(25:55):
like I am impulsive, butthediscipledilemmacom, and you
can see blogs and podcasts.
We've had a lot of great peopleLisa, I hope I can snag you to
get on one of our podcasts totalk as well but a lot of fun
talking about how, as a church,human beings, we've tripped up
what it means to lead and everyone of us is actually called to
(26:18):
lead.
So that's who we are, that'swhat we're up to, and come see
what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I will.
I will definitely tune into thepodcast right away.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
To our last question.
We always love asking ourguests what, in defining the
greatest joy, that's not theword happiness.
The idea of joy is transcendentto circumstances.
Happiness is circumstantial.
Joy is transcendent.
What really amps me up, makesme just laugh and feel good, is
when I can talk with people likewe have today, lisa, about
(27:08):
meaning and purpose and identity.
Who are you, why are you andwhy that has such an impact on
leaders in the world, much likeyour good ministry is doing.
By the way, lisa, I don't knowif a lot of people know this,
but you donate your time tohelping people have an impact as
leaders.
Thank you for what you're doingin your ministry at Leader
Impact.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You right, welcome, thank you.
Um uh.
I love the idea of um uh,happiness is is circumstantial,
whereas joy is everlasting.
And when I think of yourgreatest joy, I go right back to
the your impact.
Right, you love to see people.
Well, you're making an impactto every person you touch, and
(27:49):
you've made an impact to metoday, and I'm going to tune in
and I hope our listeners willwalk away with something today.
So I just appreciate youjoining us, dennis, if anyone
does.
I mean you've talked about theDisciple Dilemma If anyone wants
to contact you, can they dothat through your website or
LinkedIn, or what would be thebest way to engage with you?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, so info at thediscipledilemmacom will get
you connected with all of useven my ADD connection, I'll see
it as well, but the website andthen we have a YouTube channel
and you can surf and see whatwe're up to out there.
We'd love to have you all comeeither attack or engage in
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I always like to find out a little bit more before I
send my first email, so I lovethat.
I am going to go watch somemore YouTubes and your podcast.
So thank you again, dennis.
I hope everyone has enjoyedthis, but thank you for joining
us.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Blessings in your ministry, Lisa.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
All right.
Well, if you're part of LeaderImpact, you can always discuss
or share this podcast with yourgroup.
And if you're not yet part ofleader impact, would like to
find out more and grow yourleadership, find our podcast
page on our website at leaderimpactca and check out our free
leadership assessment.
You can also check out groupsavailable in canada at leader
impactca or, if you're listeningfrom anywhere else in the world
(29:02):
, check out leader impactcom orget in touch with us by email
info at leader impactca and wewill connect you.
And if you like this podcast,please leave us a comment, give
us a rating or review.
This will help other globalleaders find our podcast.
Thank you for engaging with usand remember impact starts with
you.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you.
Welcome to the Leader Impact Podcast.
We are a community of leaderswith a network in over 350
cities around the worlddedicated to optimizing our
personal, professional andspiritual lives to have impact.
This show is where we have achance to listen and engage with
leaders who are living this out.
We love talking with leaders,so if you have any questions,
comments or suggestions to makethis show even better, please
let us know.
The best way to stay connectedin Canada is through our
(00:28):
newsletter at leaderimpactca oron social at Leader Impact, and
if you're listening from outsideof Canada, check out our
website at leaderimpactcom.
I'm your host, lisa Peters, andour guest today is Dennis Allen.
Dennis is a six-time chiefexecutive officer specializing
in turnarounds for WallStreet-backed corporations.
His CEO track includes defenseindustrials, pharmaceuticals,
(00:51):
software and building materials.
Specializing in leadershipstrategy and performance in
corporate settings, dennisspeaks regularly in businesses,
universities, trade conferencesand professional workshops.
Before his career his businesscareer Dennis was a combat-rated
F-15 fighter pilot in the USAir Force.
He has been a featured speakerat national conferences such as
(01:12):
the Global Leadership SummitEurope, the Oxford Centre for
Christian Apologetics, as wellas appearances on numerous US
talk shows and radio stations.
Dennis is the author of theaward-winning book the Disciple
Dilemma Rethinking and Reforminghow the Church Does
Discipleship.
Welcome to the show, dennis.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Amped to be with you, lisa, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
You know, when I read your bio, just a couple things.
We're reading Span of Control,which is about a female F-15
fighter pilot, and she talksabout what you can control and
I'm sure you know when you'reflying a fighter pilot.
You only got so much.
You know fantastic leadershipbook, so have you ever read it?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Carrie Lorenz I have not read the book until you
mentioned it to me, and she's aNavy fighter pilot.
I'm a righteous Air Forcefighter pilot, so I'm just
saying Navy fighter pilot.
I'm a righteous Air Forcefighter pilot, so I'm just
saying you know, Chevy Ford kindof thing.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm Canadian, I don't , I don't get that, but I
clearly, I clearly get the ChevyFord Ford girl.
And and also I just attended myfirst Apologetics Canada
conference.
So, wow, I loved it and I'mgoing to dive deeper into that.
So I'm excited.
I was interested to read thatyou spoke at the Oxford Centre
for Christian Apologetics.
(02:37):
I'm going to look into that.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
That's a great course Great crowd of people, a lot of
fun to go to.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
All right.
So we are going to start withyou telling a little bit more
about yourself, and really wewant to hear about your
professional journey and how yougot to where you are today, and
really what's important isthose pivotal moments.
We love to hear you know howdid you get through.
So if you want to share moreabout that, If you want to share
(03:06):
more about that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Well, I guess the honest answer to my professional
story is if you're familiarwith attention deficit disorder.
My resume kind of looks likethat.
Right, it's like this guy's allover the map.
I started after university inwhat was my dream job.
I was flying for the US AirForce and having a wonderful
time.
I got to be an instructor pilotand teach folks how to fly the
(03:30):
jet really well, and that waswonderful.
And then suddenly boom,medically grounded, my dream
job's just gone.
I've got a baby a week awayfrom being born, I've got no job
, and that was sort of the endof what I thought was my dream.
So that was a sort of a wake upcall.
And that story had one otherominous piece to it.
(03:52):
I was supposed to be dead infive years based on what they
had diagnosed.
So that's another story foranother day.
But what is interesting afterthat is stumbling out of the
military and trying to findwhere to.
I ended up becoming adark-hearted Wall Street
capitalist.
I started working for the WallStreet investment bankers who
buy corporations.
(04:13):
Sometimes those companies arein trouble and they need
somebody like me.
I get to come in as a gig,chief executive officer, and
help them get back on their feet.
So I've been all over the map,lisa, with a lot of different
things, and here I am talking toyou, which is just one more joy
for me, and unfortunatelyyou're stuck talking to me.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love that.
So you know it's interestingwhen you talk about you know the
ADD and that you're all overthe map in your career.
Did you ever once look at yourcareer and go like, step back
and look at it and go being afighter pilot?
There's a lot of crisis.
I mean you are probably dealing, and you know again, span of
control you can only control somuch.
(04:53):
So I look at there's sort ofthat transition of going into
what you called a dark carded,dark carded Wall Street CEO.
You know you are going into acrisis situation.
What's important?
Did you ever see that?
I mean I did.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, yeah, I agree with you.
You find that humanity has away to just sort of mess things
up.
For example, in the arena ofthe Wall Street folks you always
think about, here we have thesesumma cum laude, magna cum
laude Harvard, yale, princetonpeople who are organizing
businesses, but they always tendto find a way to really screw
up corporations, mess up theculture of the people, and that
(05:34):
means they're going to needleadership.
They're going to need peoplelike the folks who might be
watching this podcast to be ableto think about how do you step
in and help people go fromcrisis and chaos everyone's
hairs on fire into thinkingabout what really matters as a
leader to help an organizationor a group of people re-become
(05:55):
who they were intended to be,and that, whether it's flying an
airplane or running a business,that's what leaders do and
that's what I hope we mightexplore a bit today.
All right, which I mean wemight explore a bit today.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, which I mean I'll let it continue.
But I mean I just look at thetitle of your book the Disciple
Dilemma Rethinking and Reforming.
You know how the church doesdiscipleship, so I'm sure it'll
be related.
But anyway, so we'll continuethe questions.
I'll hold that for a moment.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'll park it over here the conversations that I
have with a lot of folks tendsto surprise people, and it goes
basically like this If I couldleave one line to haunt people
(06:43):
today in our conversation, itwould be stop chasing success.
Stop chasing success.
If you really want to haveimpact, if you want to be a
leader with impact, what youhave to pursue is a word that,
when I say this word, a lot ofpeople are going to roll their
eyes.
They're going to say, yeah, youknow what that word is.
I got it.
(07:04):
Let's move on to something else.
I'm going to say this word andif any of you glance down at
your phone or you walk away fromwhat I'm talking about, you
don't understand what I'mtalking about.
So that little provocative setup, stop chasing success and focus
on this really, reallyimportant thing that we call
mission.
The mission who are you as aleader?
(07:28):
Who is your organization?
Why is your organization?
This is the core of havingimpact as a leader, someone who
pursues mission.
That would be my pitch on bestprinciple that we want to talk
about.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, and do you have , like, where were you when you
know, when you thought of yourmission and you were an F-15
fighter and what was yourmission when you turned it
around and became thedark-hearted CEO?
Do you have another story whereyou I mean, did you ever have
to stop focusing on the successand focus on the mission, All
(08:05):
the?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
time You're really enjoying that phrase.
Dark-hearted too.
I've noticed you use that threetimes on me.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I've never heard it before.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It kind of scares me to think that somebody actually
might want to just call me tothat.
My wife does, but nobody else.
So, yeah, I would say that thetendency for all of us is to
default from what our mission isto looking good, being
successful, getting what we want, gaining the things that we're
after.
And they're always sub mission,they were below the mission,
(08:37):
they're under the mission andthey're not the mission.
And here's the problem.
The problem is, if we don'tpursue the mission, the mission
will evaporate.
So, whether you're like whenI'm, when I'm flying this
airplane called the F-15, it'sdifferent from Cary Lundholtz,
spandek Controls F-14.
That was a Navy interceptoraircraft the F-15.
It's different from CaryLundholtz Spandek Control's F-14
.
That was a Navy interceptoraircraft.
The F-15's an air dominancefighter.
(08:58):
Its job is to go find bad guysin the air and blow them up.
We used to actually have a jokewe would introduce enemy fighter
pilots to Jesus.
That was our mission, right?
So that was a joke.
It's a joke.
If anybody gets really madbecause I just used that joke
about us blowing up enemyfighter pilots, you should blame
Lisa, not me, because sheinvited me on this podcast.
(09:18):
But the point of it is yourmission is who you are, why you
are.
And in that moment, as a leader, you don't understand who you
are and why you are.
You can't convey to anybodyelse in the organization who
they are, why they are, andeverybody starts doing what
works for them, what succeedsfor them, and the organization
(09:39):
begins to collapse.
So let me give you one example.
If I can't, can I give you anexample of this?
I'm going to give you an exampleat the corporate level and at
the personal level.
At the corporate level, therewas a company that in 1999 was
worth $524 billion on the NewYork Stock Exchange.
At that time, that made it the13th largest economy in the
(10:04):
world largest economy in theworld comparing the nations.
They changed their mission froma why in other words, who they
were, why they existed into amission about what they wanted
to be.
They wanted to be and theirmission was boundaryless we're
going to be everything toeverybody.
It took them six years to lose90% of their value.
(10:25):
They went from $524 billion to$54 billion.
That corporation is a UScompany called General Electric
and that corporation hasstruggled to redefine who and
why it is, to start rebuildingits market value Tough, tough
change.
And that was because they losttheir mission.
Now that's a corporate exampleof you lose your mission.
Things get bad.
(10:45):
Let me personalize it for justa moment, because this is a
really, really important thing.
I think to be a leader withimpact For me personally.
I think to be a leader withimpact For me personally.
I was running an organization.
It was an avionics company.
We built electronic black boxesfor airplanes and I decided
(11:05):
that there was a particularperson in this organization who
didn't kind of get me.
He didn't get my vibe, didn'tfeel me, didn't go along with
what I'm trying to get done andI sort of shifted away from the
mission which is to producethese boxes.
Using these people who arereally smart and really capable
into this is supposed to makeDennis look really good and
(11:28):
really powerful, because thisguy was a bit abusive in the
organization.
He'd been tough on some womenin the organization, he'd been
very kind of corrosive to someof our morale and our ethics,
but he was excellent in histechnology.
Instead of trying to help thisperson become the mission I
decided my mission was for me tolook really good and take down
a bad guy, and what I really didwas I crippled my organization
(11:50):
for about six months because Ilost a tremendous amount of
knowledge.
I'm not advocating his morals,but what I'm saying is my shift
in mission lost my capacity tomake the organization thrive for
about six to eight months untilI can get things back together
again.
Mission's crucial, whether it'sthe organizational ethos or
whether it's the personal ethos.
(12:11):
For us as leaders, does thathelp with?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
what you're asking.
Yeah, yes, I think of the lastpodcast we had and I was
interviewing a female leaderfrom Croatia and we talked about
leadership and how it isdifferent.
And when you listen to, thereare so many similarities.
But we talk about we've builtthis up in our head and we want
to be.
(12:35):
We want to be the savior, wewant to be the.
You know, but it's in our headthat we're ruining things
because of our own thoughts, ourown goals, our own.
You know what we want to see us, how we want to see ourselves
succeed.
So that's a great.
I think it's always good.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
When you hear the story twice, maybe three, four
times, starts to sink in beincredibly challenging,
(13:15):
especially for women trying tostep into leadership roles in
organizations, because a lot oftimes, women feel like they're
being discounted as they stepinto these roles.
Is that true?
Is that a dynamic that you see,with women trying to build
credibility rather than some ofthe things?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And I don't think it's just I mean, I don't think
I'm just seeing it, I think it'sand it's not with everybody.
So you know there are, thereare strong females.
I feel very strong going intoum, to interviews or new
positions, new ideas.
I have spoke to other women who, and around the world, who feel
and and we also believe itcould be in our heads we are
(13:50):
building up that I'm not goodenough sort of attitude.
I need more credentials.
When I read the job descriptionand it's got 10 things listed,
I need eight out of 10 or I amnot good, Right?
So it's, it's a lot of what'sin our head, Whereas men are
like, yeah, I got five, I'm good, you know, and, and that's
confidence, and we need that,and we and then we just talked
(14:12):
about surrounding ourselves withother women who can yes, you
are good, so did that add up?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
That's wonderful.
That's actually terrific advice, because so many men live in a
silo.
I'm just going to be me.
I'm not going to engage orinteract with anybody else.
I'm supposed to be the smartestguy in the room and I think the
great value of women is thatthey do seek counsel.
That's wisdom, where, as guys,we can be kind of Luddites and
(14:43):
just lock ourselves up in ourlittle tunnel.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I love that we seek counsel.
Yes, we do.
Yeah, all right, so we're goingto move on to our failures and
mistakes, because I think we allknow we learn more from our
failures and mistakes than ourown successes.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So if you'd be willing to share a failure or
mistake that happened and whatyou learned from it, Well, I
think one of the failures that Ilike to work with a lot is that
story of arrogance I mentioneda little earlier.
I decided to take this personout of the organization rather
than trying to bring this personinto the mission.
(15:17):
That was a tremendous failurefor me.
I would tell you that, for mepersonally, my greatest single
failure methodology is myimpulsiveness.
Right, I want to get to the end.
I think some of the women thatI've mentored and had in
leadership roles have always, aswe've talked about, seeking
counsel.
(15:37):
Sometimes they may attempt tooverthink it.
Well, I am excellent atunderthinking it.
If you had my bride in here inthis room talking for a minute,
she'd say he's off the divingboard.
Then he's going.
I wonder if there's any waterin the pool I'm about to jump
into.
I think for women, they mightwalk out of the diving board and
go.
Well, we're this high up andthere's water in the pool, yes
(15:59):
or no?
Maybe we should or shouldn'tjump.
I'm like, oh, how do I reversethat?
That's a tremendous failure, Ithink and again that goes back
to mission failure.
If you don't understand whatyou're trying to accomplish, you
become impulsive, you becomesuccess oriented and you begin
to kind of negate the thingsthat are set up to make the
organization succeed.
That's one side of the polarity.
(16:20):
The other side of the polarityis you overthink it and you're
never willing to make a decisionor commit or get going right.
You can overthink, underthink.
So my failure is impulsiveunderthinking.
I might contrast that with in1999, carly Fiorina took over
Hewlett Packard and she saidover and over again she tried to
(16:45):
walk in that day to meet allthese employees and have all the
answers.
Yes, she didn't know what themission was, but she wanted to
have all the answers and shesaid that was one of her
greatest failures, becausepeople began to realize that she
was trying to be her and notthe mission and that was a
problem.
So those are that's.
You know my failuresimpulsiveness.
Maybe other people's can leanmore into being too much or too
(17:06):
much overthought in the otherdirection.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, as as I will speak for myself, um, overthink,
because you know we want to.
We want to think and think andthink until it's perfect, and we
, we, we love perfection, whichwe need to let go of, and we're
all working on that.
And then you just answered.
You know, um, the CEO walks inand she wants to have all the
answers.
We want to have all the answers, we want to look perfect, we
(17:32):
want to look like we know it, wehave it all together.
You know we have the answers.
So I think, a lot of ourlisteners can resonate with that
.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I think everyone can resonate with that.
But Colin Powell, who was thechairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff in the Bush administration, bush II, was a four-star
general in the Army and he usedto give leadership lectures and
one of his impact statements wasyou'll never know more than 40%
of what you need to know tomake a decision.
Get to 40%, make a choice.
(18:03):
I think that helps think bothsides, because I'm usually good
at 1% and some people want toget to 90%.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I love that think both sides,
because I'm usually good at 1%and some people want to get to
90, you know, yeah, yeah, oh, Ilove that.
So then we think of leaders who, if you want to be a great
leader, surround yourself withpeople who know more than you.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Wonderful advice.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
You've got a great team around you, but I think we
all think we need to be thesmartest person in the room as
leaders and we don't need to be.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
We need to lead the people.
I love that.
Lose the job security problemof be the smartest guy and hire
people better than you.
That's great advice, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, I'd like to think we're there, women, we
know to do that and we canalways use a little reassurance
or reminding.
Now I know that you are awareof leader impact and you know
that we want to go growpersonally, professionally and
spiritually for increasingimpact, and I was wondering if
(18:56):
you'd be willing to share apractical example of how you
bring in the spiritual, how itmakes a practical difference in
your life.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's a great question.
Let me start with thisstatement.
There is a tremendous amount ofinsignificance.
People are always trying tobecome significant.
I want to have fame and fortuneand power.
A real leader my suggestiontoday.
(19:26):
Maybe people get mad about mesaying it this way, but a real
leader doesn't want any of that.
A real leader is trying tounderstand terms like meaning,
purpose, identity.
In other words, what is mypersonal mission?
Why am I here?
Who am I?
What are my skills, strengthsand capabilities?
Spiritually, one of the greatestvacuums that we have in the
(19:50):
world today and I see this whenI'm around the world as well as
in North America talking withorganizations and people is
people don't know who they are.
So here's an example.
I would take Matthew 20, verse26.
Jesus is making a statementlike if you want to be a great
(20:11):
leader, you got to be a servant.
If you want to be first, youhave to be a slave, because the
son of man this is Jesus talkingabout himself didn't come to be
served.
This is weird.
God is not there to be served,but to serve and to give his
(20:32):
life as a ransom.
That's a beautiful definitionof a leader.
Now, if I walk in to yourtypical commercial organization,
and I quote this passage peopleare going to freak out, but I
want you to think men and womenas leaders.
Your job actually is if youdon't bring the spiritual to the
table, your personalprofessional is a vacuous
(20:56):
wasteland.
All you will ever want topursue is success and the things
of identity that aremeaningless.
Fame, fortune, power thosethings are meaningless.
There's plenty of books aboutpeople who got those and said
there's nothing there.
The top of that mountain isempty.
This spiritual idea is yourmission.
You have a mission.
You actually have a calling.
You have a destiny and if youget what this is like this quote
(21:18):
out of Matthew 20, verse 26,now you're starting to get who
you are and why you are, and nowyou start to have impact as a
leader.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Lovely.
I have a saying up on mykitchen table and it's not
biblical, but I mean it's notfrom the Bible to quote, but it
just talks about we are calledto use our talents.
We are gifted with talents andwe need to find them.
And you talked earlier stopchasing the success of others.
(21:51):
Everyone has talents.
Find yours, find your mission.
So I appreciate that.
That was good.
So at Leader Impact, we arededicated to leaders having a
lasting impact Lasting.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
So as you continue to go through this amazing journey
of your life, have youconsidered what you want your
faith legacy to be when youleave this world?
Yeah, my rehabilitation processfor the last 50 years has been
about trying to exit the idea ofsignificance and to encounter
(22:25):
the idea of what is my realmission.
Who am I?
Why am I?
So the faith legacy if I couldwrite my own script and my kids
tell me I'm not, they're goingto put my tombstone up for me.
But if I could write my ownscript, I would say this and
here's a weird phrase coming atpeople and write Lisa and ask
her what in the world did hemean by this?
(22:45):
Your legacy as a leader is tobe a disciple.
Who makes disciples.
Who makes disciples?
The joke the way I acronymthat's D W, m, d, w M D
disciples who make disciples.
Who make disciples.
Do you know who you are and doyou know how you're supposed to
help other people form anunderstanding of who they are?
(23:07):
If I could leave that behindimpacting one or two, who would
impact one or two?
I'm a pretty happy camper.
I have that real idea ofpurpose and meaning.
I think that would be my wishfor me if I could write my
script.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, I feel on my heart is the Great Commission,
which is what you're talkingabout.
Is it Matthew 27?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Matthew 28, verse 19.
You're right in there.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
As you say, that it just, and I believe that's why I
ended up at the ApologeticsCanada conference.
I am led by my faith, butapologetics is led by evidence,
that there is evidence tosupport the Bible and it's
incredible, and so I understandthe legacy you want to leave and
(23:58):
I do like your comment tryingto exit the idea of significance
.
We look at when we're out onlunches business lunches and
people have their phones out andit's like what, what are you
doing?
And they're scrolling socialmedia to look to maybe post
themselves having lunch or, youknow, posting that they are
significant.
(24:18):
They are somewhere where youwant to be or you know, we, we
let go of the significance.
That was a, it was a great lineI'm.
I wrote that down.
That's going to go on my table.
Exit the significance, the ideaof significance.
So before I ask my lastquestion, I want to talk a
little bit about if you can tellus more about your book, which
(24:41):
is the Disciple Dilemma.
But you also have a podcast, soI want to hear more about this
because I'm looking for a newone.
I mean, besides Leader ImpactPodcast, I'm looking for a new
one.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Hear more about this because I'm looking for a new
one.
I mean, besides Leader ImpactPodcast, I'm looking for a new
one which is a great podcast.
Leader Impact is a greatpodcast.
When I was in Oxford, a groupof CEOs were together with a
group of theologians in Oxfordand the deal was to be invited
to this.
You had to agree to give a talkor write a paper or whatever.
I said, yeah, sure, I can dothat.
(25:09):
When I got there, they saidwhat you're talking about with
discipleship and the history ofthe church and how we don't get
it as leaders in the church.
You're going to write a book.
And I said I don't write books.
I don't want to do books.
They said you're going to writea book.
So these theological thugs mademe write a book called the
Disciple Dilemma.
It's about leadership and howthe leadership of the church has
failed to understand, how it'scrippling making the mission
(25:32):
clear to people in the church.
In other words, the same thingthat screws up corporate
organizations has infected thechurch and dilutes our ability
to do what Jesus told us like inMatthew 28,.
This is your mission.
So we wrote the DiscipleDilemma.
If you want to see what we'reup to, you can go to
thediscipledilemmacom.
Dilemma is with one L for thoseof you who might want to be
(25:55):
like I am impulsive, butthediscipledilemmacom, and you
can see blogs and podcasts.
We've had a lot of great peopleLisa, I hope I can snag you to
get on one of our podcasts totalk as well but a lot of fun
talking about how, as a church,human beings, we've tripped up
what it means to lead and everyone of us is actually called to
(26:18):
lead.
So that's who we are, that'swhat we're up to, and come see
what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I will.
I will definitely tune into thepodcast right away.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
To our last question.
We always love asking ourguests what, in defining the
greatest joy, that's not theword happiness.
The idea of joy is transcendentto circumstances.
Happiness is circumstantial.
Joy is transcendent.
What really amps me up, makesme just laugh and feel good, is
when I can talk with people likewe have today, lisa, about
(27:08):
meaning and purpose and identity.
Who are you, why are you andwhy that has such an impact on
leaders in the world, much likeyour good ministry is doing.
By the way, lisa, I don't knowif a lot of people know this,
but you donate your time tohelping people have an impact as
leaders.
Thank you for what you're doingin your ministry at Leader
Impact.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You right, welcome, thank you.
Um uh.
I love the idea of um uh,happiness is is circumstantial,
whereas joy is everlasting.
And when I think of yourgreatest joy, I go right back to
the your impact.
Right, you love to see people.
Well, you're making an impactto every person you touch, and
(27:49):
you've made an impact to metoday, and I'm going to tune in
and I hope our listeners willwalk away with something today.
So I just appreciate youjoining us, dennis, if anyone
does.
I mean you've talked about theDisciple Dilemma If anyone wants
to contact you, can they dothat through your website or
LinkedIn, or what would be thebest way to engage with you?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, so info at thediscipledilemmacom will get
you connected with all of useven my ADD connection, I'll see
it as well, but the website andthen we have a YouTube channel
and you can surf and see whatwe're up to out there.
We'd love to have you all comeeither attack or engage in
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I always like to find out a little bit more before I
send my first email, so I lovethat.
I am going to go watch somemore YouTubes and your podcast.
So thank you again, dennis.
I hope everyone has enjoyedthis, but thank you for joining
us.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Blessings in your ministry, Lisa.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
All right.
Well, if you're part of LeaderImpact, you can always discuss
or share this podcast with yourgroup.
And if you're not yet part ofleader impact, would like to
find out more and grow yourleadership, find our podcast
page on our website at leaderimpactca and check out our free
leadership assessment.
You can also check out groupsavailable in canada at leader
impactca or, if you're listeningfrom anywhere else in the world
(29:02):
, check out leader impactcom orget in touch with us by email
info at leader impactca and wewill connect you.
And if you like this podcast,please leave us a comment, give
us a rating or review.
This will help other globalleaders find our podcast.
Thank you for engaging with usand remember impact starts with
you.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you.
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