Loyalty360 sat down with David Andreadakis, Chief Commercial Officer at Loyalty Juggernaut, for a wide-ranging discussion on the evolution of customer loyalty, the shifting role of providers, and why actionable data — not just data collection — will separate tomorrow’s leaders from the rest.
Andreadakis, who joined Loyalty Juggernaut five months ago, brings a deep appreciation for the intersection of creativity, data, and customer experience. With a personal passion for music and storytelling, he approaches loyalty as both a science and an art — one that requires brands and providers to continually innovate and adapt.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Good afternoon, good morning, Mark Johnson from
Loyalty360.
I hope everyone's happy, safeand well.
I want to welcome you toanother edition of our Leaders
in Customer Loyalty series, theIndustry Voices podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
In these episodes.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We have the privilege of speaking with leading
agencies, technology partnersand consultants in customer
channel and brand loyalty aboutthe technology trends and best
practices that impact a brand'sability to drive unique
experiences, enhance engagementbut, most importantly, drive
customer loyalty.
Today, we have the pleasure ofspeaking with david andreakis.
(00:37):
He is the chief commercialofficer at loyalty jargonite.
David, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
hey, mark, always a pleasure, glad to see I'm Good,
good.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
First off, we'd like to start these off on a more
personal level, get to know theperson we're speaking with the
current positions.
So I'd love to know a littlebit about yourself, your
background and a little bit moreabout your current role with
Loyalty Juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, a little bit about myself.
Obviously, if you're looking atmy background here, you can see
some guitars up here.
I absolutely love music, I lovethe way that it drives my life
and I love the mechanics of it.
In fact, you know, music issomething that I think is, you
know, quite mathematical, andit's something that really led
me to find a good balance withloyalty.
You know points, programs andthe mechanics of data and things
(01:22):
like that as as artistic, andso I I really enjoy that If
anybody who, anybody who'sworked with me, understands the
storytelling and bringing thingsto life.
That's, that's who I am, andLoyalty Juggernaut picked me up
about five months ago to to helpthem advance what I think is
the world's most advancedloyalty technology to help tell
that story to the market.
(01:43):
And I'm glad to have platformslike Loyalty360 to get up there
and chat, whether it be at yourconferences or sessions like
this.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Loyalty Juggernaut a great platform getting to know
them very well.
You have some amazing brandsthat you work with.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the Loyalty Juggernaut
platform and how it supports aholistic customer loyalty effort
within the organization?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, it was really designedby Sham Shah, our CEO, and it's
one of the more interestingstories.
When you think about foundingstories for loyalty platforms,
we've seen similar stories likethis throughout the years
platforms We've seen similarstories like this throughout the
(02:28):
years, but what was differentabout this one is that he had
built a loyalty platform acouple of different times prior
at Oracle.
He did this with Siebel andthere came a time where he said
I just want to do this formyself and I want to remove all
restrictions on the customerexperience, like how do I remove
every single pain point for thecustomer and I'm going to work
backwards from there Verysimilar to what Steve Jobs might
say or approach a problem with.
(02:49):
And that attitude has not leftthe company.
In fact, as we are working withour clients, we see something
or we notice that we can make itmore efficient or better for
the customer.
We'll go ahead and fix that andwork on that, not try to bring
that to the client as anopportunity to upsell or get a
change order.
We figure that if we do thisright, then the program's going
to grow and that's how we reallywant to get paid.
(03:12):
The other thing that's reallyunique about Loyalty Juggernaut
is when we do come up with acool innovation and innovation
is who I am, to my core.
When we come up with aninnovation, we put it into the
platform.
It rolls out to everyone.
We have six releases a year andwe are constantly updating and
upgrading what our customers aregetting from us.
Whether they ask for it or not,they get these enhancements and
(03:34):
these improvements throughout.
It is such a joy to work in acompany and environment like
that, especially when you take alook at our client roster and
see who you know who we're, whowe're actually doing this with.
It becomes a lot of fun veryquickly.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Excellent when you look at the state of customer
loyalty.
Where.
Where do you think customerloyalty is today?
Where is it going and maybe howshould things be potentially
different?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, I love, love the question, love this question
.
You know I, for for years I,looked at loyalty as something
that is evolving, it's evolving,it's evolving, it's changing.
I think that's the same withmost industries, especially when
you live in an age like we do,where technology is changing
things all the time.
But I feel a little bitdifferently about it lately.
I feel like it's doing a hardright turn.
(04:21):
Doing a hard right turn, andthat right turn is not just in
what is being demanded ofloyalty.
It's an awakening of our brandson what is possible and because
of that there's a change thatneeds to happen among loyalty
providers.
The technology changes its roleand the people who are
operating the technology, theirrole, changes as well.
(04:42):
And the right turn that I'mtalking about is loyalty.
You know was always about aprogram and always about a
customer interaction orstringing a series of
interactions together, maybelearning a bit more about them
so that you could help them witha better product selection or
an experience later on.
But now more than ever, loyaltyis the core to business
(05:03):
operations.
It's the core to marketing, toadvertising.
The data that we use getsfunneled through all these
different integrations that arehappening with these SIs Content
is getting uniquely challengedand changed, all from loyalty
data and I feel like as anindustry we're behind in being
able to help carry that data andthat message forward into all
(05:25):
of those areas.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Absolutely so.
How do we change that?
Because one of the things thatwe're very focused on at
Loyalty360 is elevating thediscussion around customer
loyalty, and my perspective isthere's kind of bifurcation in
the industry on the brand sidethose who do it well, and those
who are very challenged, and ourgoal is to help elevate the
discussion to those who arechallenged right, but I think
the same thing happens on thecustomer loyalty provider side.
(05:51):
There's a great number oftechnologies, a number of
technologies that areavant-garde, they're progressive
, they have great technologiesintegrations, and then there's
some technologies consultantsout there that let just say
they're dated.
And having a kind of morecoalesced group is what we're
very focused on now, especiallyon the supplier side, the vendor
(06:11):
side, the technology side, tohelp elevate that discussion.
Do you see that same kind ofbifurcation, of that dichotomy?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and I see it with a lens, so I see exactly
what you're talking about, butI've got my own personal lens on
it.
The first thing I would say is,on the brand side, if the
organization is extremely siloed, the data is siloed, the
application of the data issiloed and it becomes really
hard to really get the most outof what a loyalty program could
(06:41):
do versus an advertising programor something that is just a
store experience.
It's really hard to bring thosetogether if the organization is
set up that particular way.
But I see a lot of other brandsevolving, very smart brands
that bring those groups togetherand center around a customer
experience, and they say, hey,how do we make this better?
And that's the point at whichI'm seeing that bifurcation that
(07:02):
you're talking about.
On the provider side over here,it used to be that I knew a
little bit about a lot of thingsacross the loyalty execution.
I know a little bit about data,I know a little bit about
design, I know a little bitabout all these things and I
could be a great advisor on howto bring these things together.
You are a general manager or anarchitect of what to do with
(07:23):
those things and I think thatrole is disappearing.
That role is actually gettingdisseminated down into.
We're empowering people to besmart and advisory all the way
down into the organization.
And so what happens from aprovider perspective?
How does that change your role?
It comes back to the data, andthis is what I believe.
(07:47):
If you become an expert notonly in data but how it is
applied, and instead of sittinghere inside of loyalty, you pack
your bags and you find who arethe consumers of this loyalty
data in my organization and yougo spend time with them, your
job becomes increasinglyapparent as to what it needs to
be.
So let me just say one morething about this meaning you're
(08:11):
in a very unique role as aloyalty advisor in this space,
not you just as an advisor.
Any advisor in the space is ina unique role to help them
understand the power of loyaltydata.
Well, if you're not spendingyour time with retail media
networks, with contentdevelopers, with the SIs or the
(08:32):
co-brands, then I don't know whoyou're talking to anymore.
Those are the people who areconsuming your data and creating
immense value for organizations, and they have very little
context about what to do with it.
And you can be a hero if youjust took on that role.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, you mentioned hero.
I'm a big fan of StoryBrand byDonald Miller, just a series of
books about just making thecustomer the hero of the story.
Right, oftentimes thetechnology partners want to talk
about we, we, we, me, me, me,me, not how they're enabling the
kind of the the customer, howthey don't listen oftentimes.
I mean that the whole thing isthat you know, and even how they
talk about certain platforms.
Uh, getting back to story brand, if you force your cat, your
(09:16):
customer, to burn calories tounderstand what you do, they
tune out.
And that's what I think we'vehad is you've had a kind of a
mass exodus people for and fromcustomer loyalty focus and we
need to get back to elevatingthat for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I think that's right and you know, I love the way you
phrased that If we're forcingthem to understand like what we
do and how to use us, then we'relost, because it happens in two
ways.
One is if we put them through aprogram and say you have to
follow our program, we're goingto lose customers.
Nobody wants to fall in linewith any type of program.
It has to be conducive to whatthey're already doing.
(09:53):
So your program needs to bebuilt around their experience
consuming information and makingdecisions.
And the greatest dissonance thatI have as an example is think
about how much time you spend inemail versus how much time you
might spend on social mediaMassive difference, whereas I
(10:15):
think 10 years ago that wasflipped, completely flipped, but
budgets are still largelyaligned with email versus
activating customers throughsocial channels.
Our customers are telling ushere's where I'm acting, here's
where I'm interacting with mypeers, here's where I'm
gathering my news, myinformation, here's where I'm
forming opinions, here's whereI'm making purchasing decisions.
(10:37):
And if loyalty programs arestill catching up to how to find
themselves central to thatworld, then they're just
becoming irrelevant.
And so so to me that thatfinding out where the customers
are acting, the way that they'reacting, interacting the way
that they want us to, you'llfind you'll find much more
success in your programs.
And now now marry that to therole of the advisor.
(11:00):
That's the stuff we've got tobe out there talking about, and
it doesn't sound like likesomebody who's been doing this
for 30 years.
It sounds like somebody who's25.
That's where the activity andthe action and the no duh starts
to come from.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, and that's a final question on this, you know
we have a series of roundtablesthat we do on the brand side
and talks about, and in prettyopen and candid candid manner,
everything right Customerloyalty from the CDPs to
organizational alignment, totraining within the organization
, both the employees from asuccess planning perspective,
but also from the frontline repwho's making sure that you
(11:40):
identify yourself as a customerloyalty program member.
Customer loyalty is prettydiverse, but you mentioned kind
of the social media focus andalso the focus on kind of in
email.
When you look at, how do youmake customer loyalty not
necessarily cool but of interest, relevant, germane to these
(12:03):
younger, younger, uhprofessionals?
Right, because that is a bigchallenge.
There's no training in college.
Very few georgetown penn stateI mean a few of them have
programs.
Um, how do we make it cool andof value to these uh, younger
audiences?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
yeah, a great question.
Um, my, my, my very brashanswer is we have to get over
ourselves.
That's the answer I mean.
As a human being, you are 100%equipped to understand belonging
.
You are 100% equipped tounderstand that this isn't my
tribe.
You are 100% equipped to knowif somebody's showing you
(12:42):
compassion or empathy for asituation that you're in.
We don't need any training onthe things that are going to
make customers loyal, likeeverybody knows what those are.
What we need to do is to figureout how do we take that
scenario and satisfy or make ourcustomers happy and find a way
to drive business profits alongwith it.
And that is an exploration andan art, and anybody who writes a
(13:06):
book on it and says this isexactly how you do it, boom,
there's a shelf life immediatelyon the effectiveness of that
material.
And so I say get out there,innovate, explore, understand
your customers, and yourtraining will come in right away
how to apply economics, how toapply marketing, how to apply
product development.
It will happen as soon as youlearn enough about your
(13:26):
customers to understand thedestination for all that
information.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, I thought the last one was the last one, but
this is kind of this will be thelast one.
Then we'll get on to more inthe interest discussion around
technology.
But you mentioned we were justtalking about customer loyalty
and loyalty marketing.
This is more my perspective.
The industry, this wholeloyalty marketing and customer
(13:52):
loyalty no one knows whatloyalty marketing is right.
Everyone has their own take.
It's been defined differently.
It's not taught in schools likemarketing 3P, 4ps, whatever
they were right.
You know product placement,promotion, pricing, I think it
was so.
But customer loyalty, everyoneknows what it is.
(14:13):
You may not be able to have todefine it, but you can talk
about it because you know whenyou see.
You know what a loyal customeris.
Right With me.
When I'm driving by Qdoba, I'mstopping there most, all the
time.
Right Because it hasaffiliation with all my kids'
sports, everything I've beenthrough.
So I know where Qdoba is.
Literally I could drive therein 40 cities.
Right, just because I like thefood, like the product, become
(14:33):
emotionally attached.
Loyalty marketing what the hellis that?
I know it's the old schoolvanguard.
It's their whole approach.
You can't tell me what loyaltymarketing is.
You're going to have adifferent definition.
Someone else is going to have adifferent definition.
So I think, fundamentally, weneed to move away from loyalty
marketing.
So many people use it and Ithink it's kind of like the
incentive industry right, youhave some really good people and
(14:55):
some kind of maybe a littlemore slimy people.
Right, I know there's a hardtake, but it's the same thing,
right?
Loyalty marketing no one knowswhat the hell it is, because
there's not a unified definition, but customer loyalty everyone
knows what it is right, you wanta loyal customer.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and you, you know it when you feel it, you
know when you see it right,absolutely, and it's I said
earlier, we have to get overourselves and I think that when
we put, when we put someconstructs in place, that it
starts to limit our thinkinginstead of expanding our
thinking.
I don't think we've actually,even though the loyalty industry
has been around for a while, Idon't think we've even scratched
the surface of understanding ofwhat it really really means to
(15:37):
connect with a consumer, how itreally changes a life, how it
really can invoke all of theemotions.
I often say and I was sayingthis from your event, from the
stage just a few months ago it'sa pretty special group of
people we have sitting in thatroom.
It is, of all the billions ofpeople that work in business,
there are only a couple dozenthousand who are charged with
(15:59):
understanding how to helpconsumers make rational
transactional decisions versusemotional decisions over here,
and understanding that two sidesof that coin.
There's so few people in theworld who understand that that
this practice that we get toenjoy is relatively new, even
though it has been around sincethe dawn of time, understanding
(16:22):
how to connect people one toanother.
I'll tell you somethinginteresting.
It's this little circle of lifemoments for me.
I remember when I was a kidarguing with my dad over Tyson
versus Ali who is better right?
And I was like, oh, but Tyson'sso much stronger.
And my dad was like, oh, butyou never saw Ali the way that
(16:42):
he was in his prime and morerecently I was arguing with my
son over our current basketballplayers better than 90s
basketball players and, man, itwas really hard to move me off
from this mountain and I hadflipped the script.
I'm sitting here in my dad'sposition and I'm realizing that
the construct that I grew up in,the familiarity that I had, the
(17:05):
things I thought were amazing,were becoming dated, that
there's a whole new set ofplayers, there's a whole new set
of awesome things that arehappening now, and I think
that's the final point, right,at the end of the day, customer
loyalty takes a commitment.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Everyone thinks it's easy, right, but when you get
into it you've been in thisindustry, you know 30 years, 20
years for myself, you know it is.
It requires continual learningand many people aren't up to
that, right.
I mean again, there's abifurcation of smart people and
not smart people, and I'm nottrying to denigrate individuals
holistically, but it takes a lotto understand new technology,
(17:42):
right.
People are.
From a behavioral scienceperspective, you know, change
behaviors.
People haven't learnedtraditionally all throughout
their lives.
They're not reading constantlyin the field, that's.
You know every mentor I've had.
Read in your field every day,read in your field every day.
I do it every day, right, asmuch as I can marketing business
, business week, whatever it maybe at age, because you need to
stay up.
(18:07):
But with the rise of AI and whatthat may or may not mean to
individuals, it creates a panic,right.
It creates cortisol, it createsdissonance and I think that's
what we have, too is in a timewhere you mentioned we should be
bringing people together.
I think this dissonanceactually is pushing people apart
, where the different customerloyalty platforms and we have
just launched a survey yesterdayin market to understand what
brands are using, and that Ithink that's where we are too is
(18:30):
it's this uncertainty, uh,around ai and, and what it might
do is creating more distanceand dissonance, where people
have maybe a little morereticence to truly work together
and partner in scenarios.
Right, you mentioned earlierwhen we were talking about you
were talking about some of theconsortiums that you work with
internationally that are buyinggroups.
(18:50):
Right, there's been a greatresistance to do that in the US
and that's really something weare laser focused on doing, just
based on feedback from thevendor side over the last five,
six months.
But there's reticence, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, and I think, look, I think that the beacon
call innovative kid that's outthere just starting in this
place, or every marketer whofeels constrained by their
current technology or what theirboss is telling them to do,
every strategist who feels likeI think there's a better way,
Just break out and try some coolnew things.
(19:25):
I'm looking at the Bugatti thatyou have on the shelf behind
you there and I'm thinking aboutall the amazing car stories
from Koenigsegg, Pagani,Lamborghini.
They were all told no at onepoint and they said I'm going to
go do something better.
And it reminds me of thecompany I'm working with right
now, with Sham Shah, who's justtired of working within the
(19:45):
shackles of the company that hewas at before and went out to go
build a better system.
And I love that innovativespirit and I think that the
industry needs an improved classof technology, of innovation,
of strategists, and I welcomethe conversations from all
(20:05):
competitor inside my company,outsider alike.
I welcome all of thatinnovation of that innovation,
excellent.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
A couple of questions to wrap this up.
Metrics are a big area ofinterest right now, as you
mentioned, and we've discussed.
What are some metrics brandsshould be tracking to clearly
understand how their program isperforming.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I am a massive fan of 4DX.
Chris McChesney over atFranklinCovey wrote this book
and he's a very good personalfriend and he distinguishes
between I'm not going to getreally, really specific.
I just want to make one massivedistinction between lag
measures things that happenedsales is something that happened
(20:47):
right Versus your lead measures, the things that you know to
affect those things right thereand in loyalty programs, I'm
often seeing things like membermigration as a KPI, are we
creating or are we retaininghigh value members?
Are we reducing the cost perpoint, things like that.
(21:10):
And I say don't focus on thoselag measures.
Find the two or three thingsthat you know that you can do to
affect those measures right,and that's going to be different
for every single company that'sout there.
But the analogy often that Irefer to is you know everybody
looks at their weight and thescale and they get disappointed.
But if you're really trackingcalories and food consumption
(21:32):
and calories burned, you'llstart to affect your weight
right.
And so I would just distinguishfrom a KPI perspective.
Go one level down and look atwhat's going to affect all of
the outcomes you're hoping for.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, I agree with that horribly.
There is some interestingstudies around food consumption
calories though, too where yourbody goes into survival mode at
certain periods of time too, butinteresting take.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Whatever advice you got for me there, I'll take it,
man, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So when you look at the state of customer loyalty,
we do report every year thatlooks at interviews, brands on
kind of where they are, wherethey're going, what they would
like to see Um and uh, it's 50%of the brand response this year
said that new reward options area focus from them.
But that's down last year from,I think, 80, some percent mid
(22:24):
eighties.
So brands are kind of trying tooptimize what they have, but
new reward options that havehigh value, high perceived
engagement, are a big focus.
What are you seeing with regardto kind of new reward options,
engagement options for customerloyalty?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, I think there's two things that are happening
here.
I think that one is that youknow, consumers in general, just
especially in the US, aregetting a little tired of stuff,
like stuff has become verycheap and easy to go get.
It's hard to go to a store likea Best Buy and get oh my gosh,
I never saw this thing before.
(23:00):
I'm really excited about it.
Everybody's got a flat screenTV in their home right now, and
so it's really hard when you'reputting a lot of products out
there to say I'm going to reallyexcite my customer on this.
And so there's just been adulling of the excitement and
the increased lift that you seefrom people who burn or or
engage in rewards and so more ofthe emotional side of things,
(23:25):
an experience, well, that Ican't get enough of get me to a
concert, get me to a betterparking spot, make my life
easier, make it so I don't haveto go through many steps to get
to the other side of things Time, status, all these things,
these emotional components, arereally driving excitement much
more than the traditionalrewards.
The problem that brands arehaving is that the availability
(23:48):
of those emotional rewards isless than or less predictable
than, the availability of, say,a gift card, and so there's
still a mix.
Because we have to beconsistent as brands, I say do
two things with this.
One is continually look forproviders and expand your reward
set to have more emotionalbenefits.
(24:08):
These are things you canprovide and other vendors can
bring to the table, but alsothink about how you're
presenting the hard rewards thatyou have already, Because
everybody could use a gift card.
I talk about it like it's not agreat thing.
It's an awesome thing to haveto pay less for something that
you have done or to get accessto something you might not have
(24:29):
had before, but you don't justput it there on your website as
a select here.
Like, like, like.
Create an experience around it.
I, um, I, I jokingly and peoplehave heard me speak at any time
from the stage.
I hear I do this story aboutabout diet Coke, like the, that
I drink a lot of it and and howmuch I'm willing to pay for a
can of Coke versus how much I'mwilling to pay for that same
(24:52):
drink If I'm at the Taylor SwiftEras Tour are very different,
but it's the same brown fizzywater that's in these drinks and
I'm willing to pay so much more.
Do that with your rewards.
If you can't bring inadditional rewards that are more
meaningful to the customer,change the experience around the
(25:12):
awards that you're giving them.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Absolutely.
When you look at we talkedabout technologies, the need for
better technologies, betterengagement paradigms, ai,
gamification, zero first-partydata they're all topics that
many brands are considering, butwe also saw in the State of
Customer Loyalty Report thatbrands are scaling down the
number of new technologies orapplications they want to engage
(25:38):
in.
Economic uncertainty rightTariff, no tariff whatever.
Optimization of the program isa big focus too.
So the average last year was3.4, 3.5, 2.4, 2.5.
It's almost one less technologyor process they're considering,
or 2.5 is almost one lesstechnology or process they're
considering.
So, when you look at all theseAI, gamification, zero party
(25:59):
data, which one do you believehas the greatest impact for
customer loyalty in 2025?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
and why.
Yeah, I think those two thingsare slightly different.
I do believe that brands arescaling down the number of
technologies that they'reinvesting in, and I think that
that is because they've gottenso complex.
Each one of them have gottencomplex and the timeframe by
which they need to see a payofffor investing in those is
compressing that it's just toohard to go out and get five, six
(26:30):
major technologies, invest in aselection criteria and
implement these things over 12months just to see if this thing
works.
It's too long.
It's too long to make those bigbets across the board as
frequently as I think brandsused to do, and so now they're
opting for.
I'd rather get 50%functionality, but out of one
(26:53):
technology that gets me all theway around the track one time.
If you can find technologiesthat allow them to see results
very quickly without all of thatfunctionality, I think brands
are saying, well, at least I canhave attribution to my
investment there.
Our job as providers is to makeit easier to get the best of.
(27:13):
They shouldn't have tocompromise on their features to
get to attribution and theyshouldn't have to wait a long
time to get there.
So that's the first part of thequestion is.
I think that that absolutely ishappening and what we need to
do about it.
But the second, which is well,which of these things I think
are going to be the biggest betsand winners?
(27:34):
I put them in three categoriesand I think it's a tie for first
, in terms of who's going to win, there's technologies out there
that give us more information.
That's always going to win.
There's technologies out therethat make life easier for people
to get to an insight and Ithink that those investments
aren't going to be from, say,loyalty providers.
(27:55):
I think those are going to comefrom the Googles of the world,
right From the big players withhundreds of people dedicated
against those, and we get toleverage those tools is how do I
(28:16):
get from predictive AI to trueagentic AI, where it's taking an
action for me and taking it allthe way to execution?
If you can get from descriptiveinto predictive, all the way to
something that's actioning foryou, taking that all the way,
that's going to be the winner,because then you can just kind
of adjust and reprogram it to dowhat you need it to do.
(28:38):
So we're putting a lot ofweight in agentic AI.
We've been doing it for sevenyears.
We've been working with AI.
We're not new to this at all.
We have 11 AI modules builtinto our technology.
We have a team that isdedicated to AI.
This is not us awakening andtrying to figure it out.
We are on the third, fourth,fifth generation sometimes of
(29:00):
implementing things, and so nowour role is how do we take this
from being smart to removing,reducing and empowering the
efforts that our marketers haveto go through?
So that's where I place my betsthe gathering information and
making it actionable.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, and it's interesting we talk about.
We often share books that weread that we find of impact.
I travel a lot for my kids withtheir sports, so Audible is
kind of my go-to.
I just got my 28 booksubscription renewed yesterday,
so I don't listen to all of them, but I probably spend 30 hours
a month listening to books.
But one, michael Lewis.
(29:36):
We all are familiar with MichaelLewis Moneyball.
You know the big short.
On and on and on he had a quoteand it was about government
right and just kind of thedebasing government has taken
from Trump.
This is actually on his lasttime in office.
He has his own political bent,but he talked about data and he
said the impulse to collect datapreceded the ability to make
(30:01):
sense of it.
People facing a complicatedproblem measure whatever they
can easily measure, but themeasurement by themselves don't
lead to understanding.
It's probably the mostimpactful quote I've ever heard
in that book.
I mean I was driving and youlisten, listen, listen, you kind
of pass it and you hear thatand you're like holy crap.
I listened to it probably 30times and I think that's a big
problem we have.
You know people are notnecessarily searching for
(30:23):
meaning within the data.
They have all this data butthey're not doing much with it.
And I think that's a bigchallenge too is to make the
data, as you mentioned,actionable, easy understanding
where the data, the differentdata sets, lie within the
organization, what data sets areimportant, and then create some
meaning on it.
People often it's like theythrow out all these stats.
I'm like what does that mean?
(30:45):
I'm like I have no idea whatthat means.
Tell me what that means.
And then you ask them to tellyou what it means.
They're like oh'm not trying tobe a jerk, but you throw all
these stats.
I'm like what do they mean tous?
And people 95% of the peoplestop right.
Everyone wants to be strategic,everyone wants to talk about how
visionary they are.
But when you're asking toughquestions like what does that
(31:06):
mean?
Because I don't know, I want toknow how to be better informed,
and we see that in thetechnology world, we see it in
consulting right.
And we see that in thetechnology world, we see it in
consulting right.
And you ask them well, whatdoes that mean?
And like well, it means what Isaid.
I'm like well, I didn'tunderstand it.
So I think that's anotheropportunity we have too, is just
making things a little clearer,more concise, so people
understand that right.
Getting back to that wholeburning calories for customers
(31:28):
they don't understand whatyou're doing.
You make them burn calories,they, you make them burn
calories, they tune out.
You can think you're thesmartest guy in the room too,
but if you're not actuallyresonating, I think that's a big
challenge we have as well, butthat's a whole different
discussion.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
No, but I love this discussion and I have a rule of
thumb that I use to help me withthis, because it used to be how
do I get more information tomake more differentiated
decisions?
No-transcript, and we oftensurpass that information
(32:13):
gathering from our actionability, as your quote, and I love that
quote, as your quote stated,and my rule of thumb is think
about a grocery store.
You got a minimum wage employeethat's happy to delight a
customer but has to get to thenext customer in seconds.
If I were to flash a message tothat person on how to treat
this person just slightlydifferently, if I can't act in
that split second that they haveto flash it to them, say
(32:35):
something nice, ask about this.
Would you like, uh, hot dogsthis this week, like you did
last week?
Whatever it is, I can't flash itto them in action on it, then
the information is not useful.
It's just interesting, and so II often go to that litmus test
of how quick is the?
Is the lifespan of thisinformation?
Is it going to sit here in mydatabase or can I empower
somebody to?
(32:55):
Is the lifespan of thisinformation?
Is it going to sit here in mydatabase or can I empower
somebody to change the life ofsomebody.
If I can't move on, get tosomething that can 100%.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Last question Any closing advice thoughts?
What's next for LoyaltyJuggernaut as we move forward in
2025 into 26?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It is going to be well.
I'll answer the second part andthen the first part.
Man 26 and the rest of 25 isjust going to be a banger year
for Loyalty Juggernaut.
We are moving so fast.
We just rolled out our 13thairline.
We've got hotels in over 100countries.
At this point, we are investingheavily into sales and
(33:34):
marketing because we've got sucha cool product In all regions.
We're on fire right now.
I've never seen a company witha bigger pipeline.
We're at a point where we getto choose the clients that we
work with and we absolutely lovethat and we are absolutely
hiring the best of in any fieldwithin loyalty.
So if you're in analytics, ifyou're a strategist, please give
(33:57):
me a call.
We're doing big things.
The advice that I have for themarket I actually am going to
borrow from something you said,and I'm going to borrow from
something that I said Gatheringinformation has to be a
discipline.
I don't care what level you'reat.
It has to be a discipline thatyou, that you, you embark in and
then making it actionable is isthe thing that you said that I
(34:20):
really, really like.
The other thing I would say isapply it to the places without
the boundaries Like there's.
There's so many people workingon on so few problems in in our
industry and there's a lot ofproblems that need attention,
and so look for some gray spaceand go explore.
In my younger days, I used towant to map every single thing
(34:42):
out.
Well, first I'm going to gohere, and then I'm going to go
there, and then I'm going to gothere.
And if you told Lewis and Clarkthey had to map the whole thing
out before they took off ontheir trip, they never would
have gone right.
You just have to be equippedwith the right tools and start
going West, and that's what theydid, and and because of that
they were able to to give us anunderstanding of a very
(35:03):
unexplored wilderness and giveus a path to move forward.
You'll learn along the way andand people will follow you with
those learnings.
So so get started, put a shovelin and go innovate.
That's my advice to the marketright now.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh great, I think that's awesome.
We do have a few more quickfire questions so we can rock
through these.
Always good to get these out.
We'd like to have a one word ora short phrase answer.
I think we're getting intotrouble with Ethan and Carly and
the editorial team, so keepthem short.
(35:36):
What is your favorite word?
My favorite?
What?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Word, my favorite word, my favorite word
concatenate.
I love the word concatenate.
It's a weird word but it bringstogether so many things.
But concatenate is my favoriteword.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What is your least favorite word?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I hate words that that make people question what I
, what I said.
So anything that's a little bitvague, and so any.
Any general word is is issomething I don't like.
I like more specifics on it.
I don't have one in particular,but there's many of them for
that.
What excites you?
Innovation, creativity, seeingpeople come alive, seeing people
understand things that theynever knew before and change
(36:21):
their thinking.
Love that.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
What do you find tiresome?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Redundancy.
Is there a book that you'veread, that you're a fan of, that
you'd like to recommend tocolleagues?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I already mentioned 4DX, fourdisciplines of execution, so
there's that one that I'll putup there.
But I love a book by MalcolmGladwell called Freakonomics.
Yeah, it's a fantastic bookbecause it makes you think
differently about everythingaround you.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, it's a very good book.
Freakonomics 2 is good as well.
But you've read ColumbiaStudies, haven't you that the
whole Freakonomics book waspretty much proved to be
factually incorrect?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, I'll tell you, the one that I love is the
example of the realtors, andthat one I'll argue with all of
Columbia on.
That one is that realtors havean inherent interest in working
against you, based on what'smotivating them.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Oh yeah, well that's that's agency theory, pure and
simple, right, because there's awhole dichotomy and I thought,
based on what, the whole suitwith the national NRA earlier
this year, how it was settledthat you know, paying someone 6%
of a commission on a halfmillion million dollar, million
and a half dollar houseridiculous, right, right, you
guys didn't do any work.
You control the market, youcontrol the data and but yeah,
(37:40):
they, they have a hugedisinterest, right, and so that
one, I agree with that one, butothers it's.
I'll find that article and sendit to you.
Love it, you know, becausegladwell is pretty much uh, uh,
you know those guys are out yeah, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I'll tell you this.
And you you were mentioningTrump earlier.
When you read I don't care whoyou like from a business
perspective, politics, whateverread, read everything, and
that's my advice to people whoare reading when you're
gathering information, don'tjust go to what you know and
what you like.
Go learn about what the othersides are saying and thinking,
(38:17):
and that I spend as much timereading and learning about my
position on things from peoplethat I don't like and I don't
respect than I do from peoplewho I do like and do respect,
because it helps me either thinkthrough my opinion and
articulate it or it helps youunderstand something I didn't
know before.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I find I'm a fairlyconservative person.
I voted for Trump.
I don't like what he's doingright now at all.
I have a number of issues withhim just regard to, you know, a
number of issues and I call himout Right.
Same thing with some of thedifferent wars going on right
now.
I tend to be a little moreliberal in my approach there,
(38:55):
but the fact is your point youhave to be able to look at
different data points, right?
You can't get your informationin an echo chamber because it's
just confirmation bias all overagain.
And again, it gets back to whatwe talked about earlier.
Most people and I tell my sonthis time and time again most
people can't think, they can'tright.
Everyone wants to be strategic,Everyone wants to be tactical.
Most people are not right.
(39:16):
The ability, as you mentionedearlier, input is, you know,
it's one of the strength finderthings is it's my number two
competition input.
I'm always I like things likecars, motorcycles, data, books,
right.
So because it makes you, if youdon't, if you go a day and
don't learn that that's a wastedday, right.
But if you don't have thatinput and if you're only reading
(39:36):
certain things, you're not,you're not, you're not being,
you don't want to think Right.
And that's where I think thatwe had a huge problem with
people reading people every day.
I don't know People's even athing Right, but they're not
reading kind of a disparate setof insight.
You're not growing as a personand that's fundamentally.
That's one of the biggestchallenges we have in society.
(39:56):
And get back to that that haveor have not.
The people who are readingactive, growing are the ones who
succeed and ones who don'tdon't.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, that's right.
And when you're telling me thatyou read every day, I know you
read a lot, even more than thebusiness side.
So my advice to people outthere reading every day is throw
in a Jack Reacher every now andthen, throw in something that's
not about business, to helpjust expand a little bit of the
side of you.
That will help provide contextto the side that you're actually
focused on.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, that's a good point too.
I think I have 1,200 movies onApple TV, so I'd rather watch a
movie or really get it donequickly, because with attention
issues I don't know if I can getthrough that book.
But anyway what profession,other than the one you are
currently doing, would you maybelike to attempt?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Oh boy, well, I should have been a musician,
right?
I should have done that.
Instead, my guidance counselorforgot to tell me that that was
even a profession.
That would have been a wholelot more fun.
No, I don't.
I actually believe to my corethat this is exactly the job
that I'm supposed to be in.
Right, the behavioral economicsof loyalty is the thing I am
(41:02):
most passionate about the factthat we get to work I mean,
think about the privilege thatwe have, mark.
We get to work in business,helping brands actually make
sense of what their customerswant, versus just turning a
dollar.
That is, you get both sides ofbeing able to help humanity and
help people live better lives,more convenient lives, happier
(41:22):
lives, enjoy each other, be partof a community.
We get to do that and help abusiness figure out how to make
some money and continue to dothat more.
What a privilege, what a joyousthing.
I wouldn't trade this for asingle job out there.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
No, I agree, A lot of things about my job I love.
I love talking to smart peopleabout smart things.
You know, we get to see such agreat diversity.
I mean to talk to brands aredoing cutting edge things are so
open, honest, and I look atsome of these people that don't
have rewarding jobs.
I feel bad for them.
I mean, there's obviously tonsof challenges in my job.
I'm not the best manager ofpeople, but, you know, getting
(41:59):
to talk to CMOs or VPs orindividuals like you on a daily
basis, I mean there's nothingbetter.
But yeah, I agree, I think Iknow the answer to this one too
what do you enjoy doing that youoften don't get a chance to do?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, I talked about music enough, but I'll tell you
there's something, and that isjust taking time to laugh.
I'm doing a lot of work rightnow, doing a lot of travel, and
it cuts down on the amount oftime that I'm able to spend with
people.
It's what I thoroughly enjoyabout going to conferences like
yours is that you get to cometogether and it's not just about
(42:34):
education and moving your jobforward, but a chance to laugh
and converse and smile a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah.
What do you typically thinkabout at the end of the day?
Say that again what do youtypically think about at the end
of the day?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
At the end of the day , I often think about okay, what
did you learn about today?
What can you do differently tomake tomorrow a little bit
better?
And as I reflect, I use thatmoment to make a correction and
give myself some grace that I'mgoing to be better tomorrow, and
(43:09):
to not sit and dwell on thething that I learned about today
and actually embrace the factthat I had the opportunity to do
something and improve it.
So that's what I think about atthe end of every single day.
It's a little bit of therapy,but it has served me really well
, who inspired you to become theperson you are today?
That is a great question.
(43:30):
You know I'm going to.
I had an impulse as soon as youasked the question.
I had an impulse of an answerand I'm going to go with it for
the first time Because it soundsa little self-serving.
But I often think about whatwould my 12 year old self say to
me if he ran into me right now?
And I I try to impress that kidevery single day.
(43:50):
I try to go back and show thatkid what I've been able to do
with the exploration, the fortbuilding, the riding around on
bikes, the forming groups andcommittees and clubs and trying
to belong and trying to advancehis own standing.
I think about that kid a lotand someday I'll run into him
and I hope he's impressed.
(44:11):
But he's inspired me to becomewho I am today.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Excellent.
Last question how do you wantto be remembered by friends and
family?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I always want to be remembered for the things I was
able to do to help somebody elsebe better at what they're
trying to do.
I'm not ever trying to say, oh,look at me, look how important
I am.
I truly want to affect livesand it's bringing that right to
the core of what we do.
Bringing that right to the coreof what we do it's what I love
(44:41):
about loyalty is that we get tohelp millions of people at a
time with our decisions, notjust help one individual.
It just so happens I might behelping a marketer or a
technologist or somebody younggetting started, and that's
great because I get to see that.
But the fact that I get to helpmillions of people get more
emotionally connected to a brandor find their path to happiness
, boy, there's not a betterfeeling.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
David, thank you very much for taking the time to
join us today.
It was great speaking with youon our Industry Voices podcast.
It was very unique getting yourperspective on customer loyalty
, and we look forward tolearning more from you and your
team at Loyalty Juggernaut forthe rest of the year.
It was a little differentdiscussion, for sure, but very
powerful nonetheless, so thankyou very much for sharing.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I really appreciate it.
I was just thinking that myself.
I don't think this is what weset it out to be, but you and I
have had a few of these, and wetalk a lot about shop, we talk a
lot about business, but Ireally appreciate the platforms
that you put forward because itallows us to and to put
ourselves out there, and Ireally appreciate it.
Thanks, mark, great pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Also, I want to thank everyone for tuning in to our
Leaders in Customer Loyaltypodcast series the Industry
Voices podcast.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to the Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast andfollow us on YouTube and
LinkedIn and make sure you likethe podcast.
Thank you very much.
Have a wonderful day.
See you next Tuesday.
Good afternoon, good morning, Mark Johnson from
Loyalty360.
I hope everyone's happy, safeand well.
I want to welcome you toanother edition of our Leaders
in Customer Loyalty series, theIndustry Voices podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
In these episodes.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
We have the privilege of speaking with leading
agencies, technology partnersand consultants in customer
channel and brand loyalty aboutthe technology trends and best
practices that impact a brand'sability to drive unique
experiences, enhance engagementbut, most importantly, drive
customer loyalty.
Today, we have the pleasure ofspeaking with david andreakis.
(00:37):
He is the chief commercialofficer at loyalty jargonite.
David, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
hey, mark, always a pleasure, glad to see I'm Good,
good.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
First off, we'd like to start these off on a more
personal level, get to know theperson we're speaking with the
current positions.
So I'd love to know a littlebit about yourself, your
background and a little bit moreabout your current role with
Loyalty Juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, a little bit about myself.
Obviously, if you're looking atmy background here, you can see
some guitars up here.
I absolutely love music, I lovethe way that it drives my life
and I love the mechanics of it.
In fact, you know, music issomething that I think is, you
know, quite mathematical, andit's something that really led
me to find a good balance withloyalty.
You know points, programs andthe mechanics of data and things
(01:22):
like that as as artistic, andso I I really enjoy that If
anybody who, anybody who'sworked with me, understands the
storytelling and bringing thingsto life.
That's, that's who I am, andLoyalty Juggernaut picked me up
about five months ago to to helpthem advance what I think is
the world's most advancedloyalty technology to help tell
that story to the market.
(01:43):
And I'm glad to have platformslike Loyalty360 to get up there
and chat, whether it be at yourconferences or sessions like
this.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Loyalty Juggernaut a great platform getting to know
them very well.
You have some amazing brandsthat you work with.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the Loyalty Juggernaut
platform and how it supports aholistic customer loyalty effort
within the organization?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, it was really designedby Sham Shah, our CEO, and it's
one of the more interestingstories.
When you think about foundingstories for loyalty platforms,
we've seen similar stories likethis throughout the years
platforms We've seen similarstories like this throughout the
(02:28):
years, but what was differentabout this one is that he had
built a loyalty platform acouple of different times prior
at Oracle.
He did this with Siebel andthere came a time where he said
I just want to do this formyself and I want to remove all
restrictions on the customerexperience, like how do I remove
every single pain point for thecustomer and I'm going to work
backwards from there Verysimilar to what Steve Jobs might
say or approach a problem with.
(02:49):
And that attitude has not leftthe company.
In fact, as we are working withour clients, we see something
or we notice that we can make itmore efficient or better for
the customer.
We'll go ahead and fix that andwork on that, not try to bring
that to the client as anopportunity to upsell or get a
change order.
We figure that if we do thisright, then the program's going
to grow and that's how we reallywant to get paid.
(03:12):
The other thing that's reallyunique about Loyalty Juggernaut
is when we do come up with acool innovation and innovation
is who I am, to my core.
When we come up with aninnovation, we put it into the
platform.
It rolls out to everyone.
We have six releases a year andwe are constantly updating and
upgrading what our customers aregetting from us.
Whether they ask for it or not,they get these enhancements and
(03:34):
these improvements throughout.
It is such a joy to work in acompany and environment like
that, especially when you take alook at our client roster and
see who you know who we're, whowe're actually doing this with.
It becomes a lot of fun veryquickly.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Excellent when you look at the state of customer
loyalty.
Where.
Where do you think customerloyalty is today?
Where is it going and maybe howshould things be potentially
different?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, I love, love the question, love this question
.
You know I, for for years I,looked at loyalty as something
that is evolving, it's evolving,it's evolving, it's changing.
I think that's the same withmost industries, especially when
you live in an age like we do,where technology is changing
things all the time.
But I feel a little bitdifferently about it lately.
I feel like it's doing a hardright turn.
(04:21):
Doing a hard right turn, andthat right turn is not just in
what is being demanded ofloyalty.
It's an awakening of our brandson what is possible and because
of that there's a change thatneeds to happen among loyalty
providers.
The technology changes its roleand the people who are
operating the technology, theirrole, changes as well.
(04:42):
And the right turn that I'mtalking about is loyalty.
You know was always about aprogram and always about a
customer interaction orstringing a series of
interactions together, maybelearning a bit more about them
so that you could help them witha better product selection or
an experience later on.
But now more than ever, loyaltyis the core to business
(05:03):
operations.
It's the core to marketing, toadvertising.
The data that we use getsfunneled through all these
different integrations that arehappening with these SIs Content
is getting uniquely challengedand changed, all from loyalty
data and I feel like as anindustry we're behind in being
able to help carry that data andthat message forward into all
(05:25):
of those areas.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Absolutely so.
How do we change that?
Because one of the things thatwe're very focused on at
Loyalty360 is elevating thediscussion around customer
loyalty, and my perspective isthere's kind of bifurcation in
the industry on the brand sidethose who do it well, and those
who are very challenged, and ourgoal is to help elevate the
discussion to those who arechallenged right, but I think
the same thing happens on thecustomer loyalty provider side.
(05:51):
There's a great number oftechnologies, a number of
technologies that areavant-garde, they're progressive
, they have great technologiesintegrations, and then there's
some technologies consultantsout there that let just say
they're dated.
And having a kind of morecoalesced group is what we're
very focused on now, especiallyon the supplier side, the vendor
(06:11):
side, the technology side, tohelp elevate that discussion.
Do you see that same kind ofbifurcation, of that dichotomy?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and I see it with a lens, so I see exactly
what you're talking about, butI've got my own personal lens on
it.
The first thing I would say is,on the brand side, if the
organization is extremely siloed, the data is siloed, the
application of the data issiloed and it becomes really
hard to really get the most outof what a loyalty program could
(06:41):
do versus an advertising programor something that is just a
store experience.
It's really hard to bring thosetogether if the organization is
set up that particular way.
But I see a lot of other brandsevolving, very smart brands
that bring those groups togetherand center around a customer
experience, and they say, hey,how do we make this better?
And that's the point at whichI'm seeing that bifurcation that
(07:02):
you're talking about.
On the provider side over here,it used to be that I knew a
little bit about a lot of thingsacross the loyalty execution.
I know a little bit about data,I know a little bit about
design, I know a little bitabout all these things and I
could be a great advisor on howto bring these things together.
You are a general manager or anarchitect of what to do with
(07:23):
those things and I think thatrole is disappearing.
That role is actually gettingdisseminated down into.
We're empowering people to besmart and advisory all the way
down into the organization.
And so what happens from aprovider perspective?
How does that change your role?
It comes back to the data, andthis is what I believe.
(07:47):
If you become an expert notonly in data but how it is
applied, and instead of sittinghere inside of loyalty, you pack
your bags and you find who arethe consumers of this loyalty
data in my organization and yougo spend time with them, your
job becomes increasinglyapparent as to what it needs to
be.
So let me just say one morething about this meaning you're
(08:11):
in a very unique role as aloyalty advisor in this space,
not you just as an advisor.
Any advisor in the space is ina unique role to help them
understand the power of loyaltydata.
Well, if you're not spendingyour time with retail media
networks, with contentdevelopers, with the SIs or the
(08:32):
co-brands, then I don't know whoyou're talking to anymore.
Those are the people who areconsuming your data and creating
immense value for organizations, and they have very little
context about what to do with it.
And you can be a hero if youjust took on that role.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, you mentioned hero.
I'm a big fan of StoryBrand byDonald Miller, just a series of
books about just making thecustomer the hero of the story.
Right, oftentimes thetechnology partners want to talk
about we, we, we, me, me, me,me, not how they're enabling the
kind of the the customer, howthey don't listen oftentimes.
I mean that the whole thing isthat you know, and even how they
talk about certain platforms.
Uh, getting back to story brand, if you force your cat, your
(09:16):
customer, to burn calories tounderstand what you do, they
tune out.
And that's what I think we'vehad is you've had a kind of a
mass exodus people for and fromcustomer loyalty focus and we
need to get back to elevatingthat for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I think that's right and you know, I love the way you
phrased that If we're forcingthem to understand like what we
do and how to use us, then we'relost, because it happens in two
ways.
One is if we put them through aprogram and say you have to
follow our program, we're goingto lose customers.
Nobody wants to fall in linewith any type of program.
It has to be conducive to whatthey're already doing.
(09:53):
So your program needs to bebuilt around their experience
consuming information and makingdecisions.
And the greatest dissonance thatI have as an example is think
about how much time you spend inemail versus how much time you
might spend on social mediaMassive difference, whereas I
(10:15):
think 10 years ago that wasflipped, completely flipped, but
budgets are still largelyaligned with email versus
activating customers throughsocial channels.
Our customers are telling ushere's where I'm acting, here's
where I'm interacting with mypeers, here's where I'm
gathering my news, myinformation, here's where I'm
forming opinions, here's whereI'm making purchasing decisions.
(10:37):
And if loyalty programs arestill catching up to how to find
themselves central to thatworld, then they're just
becoming irrelevant.
And so so to me that thatfinding out where the customers
are acting, the way that they'reacting, interacting the way
that they want us to, you'llfind you'll find much more
success in your programs.
And now now marry that to therole of the advisor.
(11:00):
That's the stuff we've got tobe out there talking about, and
it doesn't sound like likesomebody who's been doing this
for 30 years.
It sounds like somebody who's25.
That's where the activity andthe action and the no duh starts
to come from.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, and that's a final question on this, you know
we have a series of roundtablesthat we do on the brand side
and talks about, and in prettyopen and candid candid manner,
everything right Customerloyalty from the CDPs to
organizational alignment, totraining within the organization
, both the employees from asuccess planning perspective,
but also from the frontline repwho's making sure that you
(11:40):
identify yourself as a customerloyalty program member.
Customer loyalty is prettydiverse, but you mentioned kind
of the social media focus andalso the focus on kind of in
email.
When you look at, how do youmake customer loyalty not
necessarily cool but of interest, relevant, germane to these
(12:03):
younger, younger, uhprofessionals?
Right, because that is a bigchallenge.
There's no training in college.
Very few georgetown penn stateI mean a few of them have
programs.
Um, how do we make it cool andof value to these uh, younger
audiences?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
yeah, a great question.
Um, my, my, my very brashanswer is we have to get over
ourselves.
That's the answer I mean.
As a human being, you are 100%equipped to understand belonging
.
You are 100% equipped tounderstand that this isn't my
tribe.
You are 100% equipped to knowif somebody's showing you
(12:42):
compassion or empathy for asituation that you're in.
We don't need any training onthe things that are going to
make customers loyal, likeeverybody knows what those are.
What we need to do is to figureout how do we take that
scenario and satisfy or make ourcustomers happy and find a way
to drive business profits alongwith it.
And that is an exploration andan art, and anybody who writes a
(13:06):
book on it and says this isexactly how you do it, boom,
there's a shelf life immediatelyon the effectiveness of that
material.
And so I say get out there,innovate, explore, understand
your customers, and yourtraining will come in right away
how to apply economics, how toapply marketing, how to apply
product development.
It will happen as soon as youlearn enough about your
(13:26):
customers to understand thedestination for all that
information.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, I thought the last one was the last one, but
this is kind of this will be thelast one.
Then we'll get on to more inthe interest discussion around
technology.
But you mentioned we were justtalking about customer loyalty
and loyalty marketing.
This is more my perspective.
The industry, this wholeloyalty marketing and customer
(13:52):
loyalty no one knows whatloyalty marketing is right.
Everyone has their own take.
It's been defined differently.
It's not taught in schools likemarketing 3P, 4ps, whatever
they were right.
You know product placement,promotion, pricing, I think it
was so.
But customer loyalty, everyoneknows what it is.
(14:13):
You may not be able to have todefine it, but you can talk
about it because you know whenyou see.
You know what a loyal customeris.
Right With me.
When I'm driving by Qdoba, I'mstopping there most, all the
time.
Right Because it hasaffiliation with all my kids'
sports, everything I've beenthrough.
So I know where Qdoba is.
Literally I could drive therein 40 cities.
Right, just because I like thefood, like the product, become
(14:33):
emotionally attached.
Loyalty marketing what the hellis that?
I know it's the old schoolvanguard.
It's their whole approach.
You can't tell me what loyaltymarketing is.
You're going to have adifferent definition.
Someone else is going to have adifferent definition.
So I think, fundamentally, weneed to move away from loyalty
marketing.
So many people use it and Ithink it's kind of like the
incentive industry right, youhave some really good people and
(14:55):
some kind of maybe a littlemore slimy people.
Right, I know there's a hardtake, but it's the same thing,
right?
Loyalty marketing no one knowswhat the hell it is, because
there's not a unified definition, but customer loyalty everyone
knows what it is right, you wanta loyal customer.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and you, you know it when you feel it, you
know when you see it right,absolutely, and it's I said
earlier, we have to get overourselves and I think that when
we put, when we put someconstructs in place, that it
starts to limit our thinkinginstead of expanding our
thinking.
I don't think we've actually,even though the loyalty industry
has been around for a while, Idon't think we've even scratched
the surface of understanding ofwhat it really really means to
(15:37):
connect with a consumer, how itreally changes a life, how it
really can invoke all of theemotions.
I often say and I was sayingthis from your event, from the
stage just a few months ago it'sa pretty special group of
people we have sitting in thatroom.
It is, of all the billions ofpeople that work in business,
there are only a couple dozenthousand who are charged with
(15:59):
understanding how to helpconsumers make rational
transactional decisions versusemotional decisions over here,
and understanding that two sidesof that coin.
There's so few people in theworld who understand that that
this practice that we get toenjoy is relatively new, even
though it has been around sincethe dawn of time, understanding
(16:22):
how to connect people one toanother.
I'll tell you somethinginteresting.
It's this little circle of lifemoments for me.
I remember when I was a kidarguing with my dad over Tyson
versus Ali who is better right?
And I was like, oh, but Tyson'sso much stronger.
And my dad was like, oh, butyou never saw Ali the way that
(16:42):
he was in his prime and morerecently I was arguing with my
son over our current basketballplayers better than 90s
basketball players and, man, itwas really hard to move me off
from this mountain and I hadflipped the script.
I'm sitting here in my dad'sposition and I'm realizing that
the construct that I grew up in,the familiarity that I had, the
(17:05):
things I thought were amazing,were becoming dated, that
there's a whole new set ofplayers, there's a whole new set
of awesome things that arehappening now, and I think
that's the final point, right,at the end of the day, customer
loyalty takes a commitment.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Everyone thinks it's easy, right, but when you get
into it you've been in thisindustry, you know 30 years, 20
years for myself, you know it is.
It requires continual learningand many people aren't up to
that, right.
I mean again, there's abifurcation of smart people and
not smart people, and I'm nottrying to denigrate individuals
holistically, but it takes a lotto understand new technology,
(17:42):
right.
People are.
From a behavioral scienceperspective, you know, change
behaviors.
People haven't learnedtraditionally all throughout
their lives.
They're not reading constantlyin the field, that's.
You know every mentor I've had.
Read in your field every day,read in your field every day.
I do it every day, right, asmuch as I can marketing business
, business week, whatever it maybe at age, because you need to
stay up.
(18:07):
But with the rise of AI and whatthat may or may not mean to
individuals, it creates a panic,right.
It creates cortisol, it createsdissonance and I think that's
what we have, too is in a timewhere you mentioned we should be
bringing people together.
I think this dissonanceactually is pushing people apart
, where the different customerloyalty platforms and we have
just launched a survey yesterdayin market to understand what
brands are using, and that Ithink that's where we are too is
(18:30):
it's this uncertainty, uh,around ai and, and what it might
do is creating more distanceand dissonance, where people
have maybe a little morereticence to truly work together
and partner in scenarios.
Right, you mentioned earlierwhen we were talking about you
were talking about some of theconsortiums that you work with
internationally that are buyinggroups.
(18:50):
Right, there's been a greatresistance to do that in the US
and that's really something weare laser focused on doing, just
based on feedback from thevendor side over the last five,
six months.
But there's reticence, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, and I think, look, I think that the beacon
call innovative kid that's outthere just starting in this
place, or every marketer whofeels constrained by their
current technology or what theirboss is telling them to do,
every strategist who feels likeI think there's a better way,
Just break out and try some coolnew things.
(19:25):
I'm looking at the Bugatti thatyou have on the shelf behind
you there and I'm thinking aboutall the amazing car stories
from Koenigsegg, Pagani,Lamborghini.
They were all told no at onepoint and they said I'm going to
go do something better.
And it reminds me of thecompany I'm working with right
now, with Sham Shah, who's justtired of working within the
(19:45):
shackles of the company that hewas at before and went out to go
build a better system.
And I love that innovativespirit and I think that the
industry needs an improved classof technology, of innovation,
of strategists, and I welcomethe conversations from all
(20:05):
competitor inside my company,outsider alike.
I welcome all of thatinnovation of that innovation,
excellent.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
A couple of questions to wrap this up.
Metrics are a big area ofinterest right now, as you
mentioned, and we've discussed.
What are some metrics brandsshould be tracking to clearly
understand how their program isperforming.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I am a massive fan of 4DX.
Chris McChesney over atFranklinCovey wrote this book
and he's a very good personalfriend and he distinguishes
between I'm not going to getreally, really specific.
I just want to make one massivedistinction between lag
measures things that happenedsales is something that happened
(20:47):
right Versus your lead measures, the things that you know to
affect those things right thereand in loyalty programs, I'm
often seeing things like membermigration as a KPI, are we
creating or are we retaininghigh value members?
Are we reducing the cost perpoint, things like that.
(21:10):
And I say don't focus on thoselag measures.
Find the two or three thingsthat you know that you can do to
affect those measures right,and that's going to be different
for every single company that'sout there.
But the analogy often that Irefer to is you know everybody
looks at their weight and thescale and they get disappointed.
But if you're really trackingcalories and food consumption
(21:32):
and calories burned, you'llstart to affect your weight
right.
And so I would just distinguishfrom a KPI perspective.
Go one level down and look atwhat's going to affect all of
the outcomes you're hoping for.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, I agree with that horribly.
There is some interestingstudies around food consumption
calories though, too where yourbody goes into survival mode at
certain periods of time too, butinteresting take.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Whatever advice you got for me there, I'll take it,
man, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So when you look at the state of customer loyalty,
we do report every year thatlooks at interviews, brands on
kind of where they are, wherethey're going, what they would
like to see Um and uh, it's 50%of the brand response this year
said that new reward options area focus from them.
But that's down last year from,I think, 80, some percent mid
(22:24):
eighties.
So brands are kind of trying tooptimize what they have, but
new reward options that havehigh value, high perceived
engagement, are a big focus.
What are you seeing with regardto kind of new reward options,
engagement options for customerloyalty?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, I think there's two things that are happening
here.
I think that one is that youknow, consumers in general, just
especially in the US, aregetting a little tired of stuff,
like stuff has become verycheap and easy to go get.
It's hard to go to a store likea Best Buy and get oh my gosh,
I never saw this thing before.
(23:00):
I'm really excited about it.
Everybody's got a flat screenTV in their home right now, and
so it's really hard when you'reputting a lot of products out
there to say I'm going to reallyexcite my customer on this.
And so there's just been adulling of the excitement and
the increased lift that you seefrom people who burn or or
engage in rewards and so more ofthe emotional side of things,
(23:25):
an experience, well, that Ican't get enough of get me to a
concert, get me to a betterparking spot, make my life
easier, make it so I don't haveto go through many steps to get
to the other side of things Time, status, all these things,
these emotional components, arereally driving excitement much
more than the traditionalrewards.
The problem that brands arehaving is that the availability
(23:48):
of those emotional rewards isless than or less predictable
than, the availability of, say,a gift card, and so there's
still a mix.
Because we have to beconsistent as brands, I say do
two things with this.
One is continually look forproviders and expand your reward
set to have more emotionalbenefits.
(24:08):
These are things you canprovide and other vendors can
bring to the table, but alsothink about how you're
presenting the hard rewards thatyou have already, Because
everybody could use a gift card.
I talk about it like it's not agreat thing.
It's an awesome thing to haveto pay less for something that
you have done or to get accessto something you might not have
(24:29):
had before, but you don't justput it there on your website as
a select here.
Like, like, like.
Create an experience around it.
I, um, I, I jokingly and peoplehave heard me speak at any time
from the stage.
I hear I do this story aboutabout diet Coke, like the, that
I drink a lot of it and and howmuch I'm willing to pay for a
can of Coke versus how much I'mwilling to pay for that same
(24:52):
drink If I'm at the Taylor SwiftEras Tour are very different,
but it's the same brown fizzywater that's in these drinks and
I'm willing to pay so much more.
Do that with your rewards.
If you can't bring inadditional rewards that are more
meaningful to the customer,change the experience around the
(25:12):
awards that you're giving them.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Absolutely.
When you look at we talkedabout technologies, the need for
better technologies, betterengagement paradigms, ai,
gamification, zero first-partydata they're all topics that
many brands are considering, butwe also saw in the State of
Customer Loyalty Report thatbrands are scaling down the
number of new technologies orapplications they want to engage
(25:38):
in.
Economic uncertainty rightTariff, no tariff whatever.
Optimization of the program isa big focus too.
So the average last year was3.4, 3.5, 2.4, 2.5.
It's almost one less technologyor process they're considering,
or 2.5 is almost one lesstechnology or process they're
considering.
So, when you look at all theseAI, gamification, zero party
(25:59):
data, which one do you believehas the greatest impact for
customer loyalty in 2025?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
and why.
Yeah, I think those two thingsare slightly different.
I do believe that brands arescaling down the number of
technologies that they'reinvesting in, and I think that
that is because they've gottenso complex.
Each one of them have gottencomplex and the timeframe by
which they need to see a payofffor investing in those is
compressing that it's just toohard to go out and get five, six
(26:30):
major technologies, invest in aselection criteria and
implement these things over 12months just to see if this thing
works.
It's too long.
It's too long to make those bigbets across the board as
frequently as I think brandsused to do, and so now they're
opting for.
I'd rather get 50%functionality, but out of one
(26:53):
technology that gets me all theway around the track one time.
If you can find technologiesthat allow them to see results
very quickly without all of thatfunctionality, I think brands
are saying, well, at least I canhave attribution to my
investment there.
Our job as providers is to makeit easier to get the best of.
(27:13):
They shouldn't have tocompromise on their features to
get to attribution and theyshouldn't have to wait a long
time to get there.
So that's the first part of thequestion is.
I think that that absolutely ishappening and what we need to
do about it.
But the second, which is well,which of these things I think
are going to be the biggest betsand winners?
(27:34):
I put them in three categoriesand I think it's a tie for first
, in terms of who's going to win, there's technologies out there
that give us more information.
That's always going to win.
There's technologies out therethat make life easier for people
to get to an insight and Ithink that those investments
aren't going to be from, say,loyalty providers.
(27:55):
I think those are going to comefrom the Googles of the world,
right From the big players withhundreds of people dedicated
against those, and we get toleverage those tools is how do I
(28:16):
get from predictive AI to trueagentic AI, where it's taking an
action for me and taking it allthe way to execution?
If you can get from descriptiveinto predictive, all the way to
something that's actioning foryou, taking that all the way,
that's going to be the winner,because then you can just kind
of adjust and reprogram it to dowhat you need it to do.
(28:38):
So we're putting a lot ofweight in agentic AI.
We've been doing it for sevenyears.
We've been working with AI.
We're not new to this at all.
We have 11 AI modules builtinto our technology.
We have a team that isdedicated to AI.
This is not us awakening andtrying to figure it out.
We are on the third, fourth,fifth generation sometimes of
(29:00):
implementing things, and so nowour role is how do we take this
from being smart to removing,reducing and empowering the
efforts that our marketers haveto go through?
So that's where I place my betsthe gathering information and
making it actionable.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, and it's interesting we talk about.
We often share books that weread that we find of impact.
I travel a lot for my kids withtheir sports, so Audible is
kind of my go-to.
I just got my 28 booksubscription renewed yesterday,
so I don't listen to all of them, but I probably spend 30 hours
a month listening to books.
But one, michael Lewis.
(29:36):
We all are familiar with MichaelLewis Moneyball.
You know the big short.
On and on and on he had a quoteand it was about government
right and just kind of thedebasing government has taken
from Trump.
This is actually on his lasttime in office.
He has his own political bent,but he talked about data and he
said the impulse to collect datapreceded the ability to make
(30:01):
sense of it.
People facing a complicatedproblem measure whatever they
can easily measure, but themeasurement by themselves don't
lead to understanding.
It's probably the mostimpactful quote I've ever heard
in that book.
I mean I was driving and youlisten, listen, listen, you kind
of pass it and you hear thatand you're like holy crap.
I listened to it probably 30times and I think that's a big
problem we have.
You know people are notnecessarily searching for
(30:23):
meaning within the data.
They have all this data butthey're not doing much with it.
And I think that's a bigchallenge too is to make the
data, as you mentioned,actionable, easy understanding
where the data, the differentdata sets, lie within the
organization, what data sets areimportant, and then create some
meaning on it.
People often it's like theythrow out all these stats.
I'm like what does that mean?
(30:45):
I'm like I have no idea whatthat means.
Tell me what that means.
And then you ask them to tellyou what it means.
They're like oh'm not trying tobe a jerk, but you throw all
these stats.
I'm like what do they mean tous?
And people 95% of the peoplestop right.
Everyone wants to be strategic,everyone wants to talk about how
visionary they are.
But when you're asking toughquestions like what does that
(31:06):
mean?
Because I don't know, I want toknow how to be better informed,
and we see that in thetechnology world, we see it in
consulting right.
And we see that in thetechnology world, we see it in
consulting right.
And you ask them well, whatdoes that mean?
And like well, it means what Isaid.
I'm like well, I didn'tunderstand it.
So I think that's anotheropportunity we have too, is just
making things a little clearer,more concise, so people
understand that right.
Getting back to that wholeburning calories for customers
(31:28):
they don't understand whatyou're doing.
You make them burn calories,they, you make them burn
calories, they tune out.
You can think you're thesmartest guy in the room too,
but if you're not actuallyresonating, I think that's a big
challenge we have as well, butthat's a whole different
discussion.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
No, but I love this discussion and I have a rule of
thumb that I use to help me withthis, because it used to be how
do I get more information tomake more differentiated
decisions?
No-transcript, and we oftensurpass that information
(32:13):
gathering from our actionability, as your quote, and I love that
quote, as your quote stated,and my rule of thumb is think
about a grocery store.
You got a minimum wage employeethat's happy to delight a
customer but has to get to thenext customer in seconds.
If I were to flash a message tothat person on how to treat
this person just slightlydifferently, if I can't act in
that split second that they haveto flash it to them, say
(32:35):
something nice, ask about this.
Would you like, uh, hot dogsthis this week, like you did
last week?
Whatever it is, I can't flash itto them in action on it, then
the information is not useful.
It's just interesting, and so II often go to that litmus test
of how quick is the?
Is the lifespan of thisinformation?
Is it going to sit here in mydatabase or can I empower
somebody to?
(32:55):
Is the lifespan of thisinformation?
Is it going to sit here in mydatabase or can I empower
somebody to change the life ofsomebody.
If I can't move on, get tosomething that can 100%.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Last question Any closing advice thoughts?
What's next for LoyaltyJuggernaut as we move forward in
2025 into 26?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It is going to be well.
I'll answer the second part andthen the first part.
Man 26 and the rest of 25 isjust going to be a banger year
for Loyalty Juggernaut.
We are moving so fast.
We just rolled out our 13thairline.
We've got hotels in over 100countries.
At this point, we are investingheavily into sales and
(33:34):
marketing because we've got sucha cool product In all regions.
We're on fire right now.
I've never seen a company witha bigger pipeline.
We're at a point where we getto choose the clients that we
work with and we absolutely lovethat and we are absolutely
hiring the best of in any fieldwithin loyalty.
So if you're in analytics, ifyou're a strategist, please give
(33:57):
me a call.
We're doing big things.
The advice that I have for themarket I actually am going to
borrow from something you said,and I'm going to borrow from
something that I said Gatheringinformation has to be a
discipline.
I don't care what level you'reat.
It has to be a discipline thatyou, that you, you embark in and
then making it actionable is isthe thing that you said that I
(34:20):
really, really like.
The other thing I would say isapply it to the places without
the boundaries Like there's.
There's so many people workingon on so few problems in in our
industry and there's a lot ofproblems that need attention,
and so look for some gray spaceand go explore.
In my younger days, I used towant to map every single thing
(34:42):
out.
Well, first I'm going to gohere, and then I'm going to go
there, and then I'm going to gothere.
And if you told Lewis and Clarkthey had to map the whole thing
out before they took off ontheir trip, they never would
have gone right.
You just have to be equippedwith the right tools and start
going West, and that's what theydid, and and because of that
they were able to to give us anunderstanding of a very
(35:03):
unexplored wilderness and giveus a path to move forward.
You'll learn along the way andand people will follow you with
those learnings.
So so get started, put a shovelin and go innovate.
That's my advice to the marketright now.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh great, I think that's awesome.
We do have a few more quickfire questions so we can rock
through these.
Always good to get these out.
We'd like to have a one word ora short phrase answer.
I think we're getting intotrouble with Ethan and Carly and
the editorial team, so keepthem short.
(35:36):
What is your favorite word?
My favorite?
What?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Word, my favorite word, my favorite word
concatenate.
I love the word concatenate.
It's a weird word but it bringstogether so many things.
But concatenate is my favoriteword.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What is your least favorite word?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I hate words that that make people question what I
, what I said.
So anything that's a little bitvague, and so any.
Any general word is is issomething I don't like.
I like more specifics on it.
I don't have one in particular,but there's many of them for
that.
What excites you?
Innovation, creativity, seeingpeople come alive, seeing people
understand things that theynever knew before and change
(36:21):
their thinking.
Love that.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
What do you find tiresome?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Redundancy.
Is there a book that you'veread, that you're a fan of, that
you'd like to recommend tocolleagues?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I already mentioned 4DX, fourdisciplines of execution, so
there's that one that I'll putup there.
But I love a book by MalcolmGladwell called Freakonomics.
Yeah, it's a fantastic bookbecause it makes you think
differently about everythingaround you.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, it's a very good book.
Freakonomics 2 is good as well.
But you've read ColumbiaStudies, haven't you that the
whole Freakonomics book waspretty much proved to be
factually incorrect?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, I'll tell you, the one that I love is the
example of the realtors, andthat one I'll argue with all of
Columbia on.
That one is that realtors havean inherent interest in working
against you, based on what'smotivating them.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Oh yeah, well that's that's agency theory, pure and
simple, right, because there's awhole dichotomy and I thought,
based on what, the whole suitwith the national NRA earlier
this year, how it was settledthat you know, paying someone 6%
of a commission on a halfmillion million dollar, million
and a half dollar houseridiculous, right, right, you
guys didn't do any work.
You control the market, youcontrol the data and but yeah,
(37:40):
they, they have a hugedisinterest, right, and so that
one, I agree with that one, butothers it's.
I'll find that article and sendit to you.
Love it, you know, becausegladwell is pretty much uh, uh,
you know those guys are out yeah, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I'll tell you this.
And you you were mentioningTrump earlier.
When you read I don't care whoyou like from a business
perspective, politics, whateverread, read everything, and
that's my advice to people whoare reading when you're
gathering information, don'tjust go to what you know and
what you like.
Go learn about what the othersides are saying and thinking,
(38:17):
and that I spend as much timereading and learning about my
position on things from peoplethat I don't like and I don't
respect than I do from peoplewho I do like and do respect,
because it helps me either thinkthrough my opinion and
articulate it or it helps youunderstand something I didn't
know before.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I find I'm a fairlyconservative person.
I voted for Trump.
I don't like what he's doingright now at all.
I have a number of issues withhim just regard to, you know, a
number of issues and I call himout Right.
Same thing with some of thedifferent wars going on right
now.
I tend to be a little moreliberal in my approach there,
(38:55):
but the fact is your point youhave to be able to look at
different data points, right?
You can't get your informationin an echo chamber because it's
just confirmation bias all overagain.
And again, it gets back to whatwe talked about earlier.
Most people and I tell my sonthis time and time again most
people can't think, they can'tright.
Everyone wants to be strategic,Everyone wants to be tactical.
Most people are not right.
(39:16):
The ability, as you mentionedearlier, input is, you know,
it's one of the strength finderthings is it's my number two
competition input.
I'm always I like things likecars, motorcycles, data, books,
right.
So because it makes you, if youdon't, if you go a day and
don't learn that that's a wastedday, right.
But if you don't have thatinput and if you're only reading
(39:36):
certain things, you're not,you're not, you're not being,
you don't want to think Right.
And that's where I think thatwe had a huge problem with
people reading people every day.
I don't know People's even athing Right, but they're not
reading kind of a disparate setof insight.
You're not growing as a personand that's fundamentally.
That's one of the biggestchallenges we have in society.
(39:56):
And get back to that that haveor have not.
The people who are readingactive, growing are the ones who
succeed and ones who don'tdon't.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, that's right.
And when you're telling me thatyou read every day, I know you
read a lot, even more than thebusiness side.
So my advice to people outthere reading every day is throw
in a Jack Reacher every now andthen, throw in something that's
not about business, to helpjust expand a little bit of the
side of you.
That will help provide contextto the side that you're actually
focused on.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, that's a good point too.
I think I have 1,200 movies onApple TV, so I'd rather watch a
movie or really get it donequickly, because with attention
issues I don't know if I can getthrough that book.
But anyway what profession,other than the one you are
currently doing, would you maybelike to attempt?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Oh boy, well, I should have been a musician,
right?
I should have done that.
Instead, my guidance counselorforgot to tell me that that was
even a profession.
That would have been a wholelot more fun.
No, I don't.
I actually believe to my corethat this is exactly the job
that I'm supposed to be in.
Right, the behavioral economicsof loyalty is the thing I am
(41:02):
most passionate about the factthat we get to work I mean,
think about the privilege thatwe have, mark.
We get to work in business,helping brands actually make
sense of what their customerswant, versus just turning a
dollar.
That is, you get both sides ofbeing able to help humanity and
help people live better lives,more convenient lives, happier
(41:22):
lives, enjoy each other, be partof a community.
We get to do that and help abusiness figure out how to make
some money and continue to dothat more.
What a privilege, what a joyousthing.
I wouldn't trade this for asingle job out there.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
No, I agree, A lot of things about my job I love.
I love talking to smart peopleabout smart things.
You know, we get to see such agreat diversity.
I mean to talk to brands aredoing cutting edge things are so
open, honest, and I look atsome of these people that don't
have rewarding jobs.
I feel bad for them.
I mean, there's obviously tonsof challenges in my job.
I'm not the best manager ofpeople, but, you know, getting
(41:59):
to talk to CMOs or VPs orindividuals like you on a daily
basis, I mean there's nothingbetter.
But yeah, I agree, I think Iknow the answer to this one too
what do you enjoy doing that youoften don't get a chance to do?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, I talked about music enough, but I'll tell you
there's something, and that isjust taking time to laugh.
I'm doing a lot of work rightnow, doing a lot of travel, and
it cuts down on the amount oftime that I'm able to spend with
people.
It's what I thoroughly enjoyabout going to conferences like
yours is that you get to cometogether and it's not just about
(42:34):
education and moving your jobforward, but a chance to laugh
and converse and smile a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah.
What do you typically thinkabout at the end of the day?
Say that again what do youtypically think about at the end
of the day?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
At the end of the day , I often think about okay, what
did you learn about today?
What can you do differently tomake tomorrow a little bit
better?
And as I reflect, I use thatmoment to make a correction and
give myself some grace that I'mgoing to be better tomorrow, and
(43:09):
to not sit and dwell on thething that I learned about today
and actually embrace the factthat I had the opportunity to do
something and improve it.
So that's what I think about atthe end of every single day.
It's a little bit of therapy,but it has served me really well
, who inspired you to become theperson you are today?
That is a great question.
(43:30):
You know I'm going to.
I had an impulse as soon as youasked the question.
I had an impulse of an answerand I'm going to go with it for
the first time Because it soundsa little self-serving.
But I often think about whatwould my 12 year old self say to
me if he ran into me right now?
And I I try to impress that kidevery single day.
(43:50):
I try to go back and show thatkid what I've been able to do
with the exploration, the fortbuilding, the riding around on
bikes, the forming groups andcommittees and clubs and trying
to belong and trying to advancehis own standing.
I think about that kid a lotand someday I'll run into him
and I hope he's impressed.
(44:11):
But he's inspired me to becomewho I am today.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Excellent.
Last question how do you wantto be remembered by friends and
family?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I always want to be remembered for the things I was
able to do to help somebody elsebe better at what they're
trying to do.
I'm not ever trying to say, oh,look at me, look how important
I am.
I truly want to affect livesand it's bringing that right to
the core of what we do.
Bringing that right to the coreof what we do it's what I love
(44:41):
about loyalty is that we get tohelp millions of people at a
time with our decisions, notjust help one individual.
It just so happens I might behelping a marketer or a
technologist or somebody younggetting started, and that's
great because I get to see that.
But the fact that I get to helpmillions of people get more
emotionally connected to a brandor find their path to happiness
, boy, there's not a betterfeeling.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
David, thank you very much for taking the time to
join us today.
It was great speaking with youon our Industry Voices podcast.
It was very unique getting yourperspective on customer loyalty
, and we look forward tolearning more from you and your
team at Loyalty Juggernaut forthe rest of the year.
It was a little differentdiscussion, for sure, but very
powerful nonetheless, so thankyou very much for sharing.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I really appreciate it.
I was just thinking that myself.
I don't think this is what weset it out to be, but you and I
have had a few of these, and wetalk a lot about shop, we talk a
lot about business, but Ireally appreciate the platforms
that you put forward because itallows us to and to put
ourselves out there, and Ireally appreciate it.
Thanks, mark, great pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Also, I want to thank everyone for tuning in to our
Leaders in Customer Loyaltypodcast series the Industry
Voices podcast.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to the Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast andfollow us on YouTube and
LinkedIn and make sure you likethe podcast.
Thank you very much.
Have a wonderful day.
See you next Tuesday.
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