Travel can be magical, or it can be chaotic. As Mark Johnson, CEO of Loyalty360, noted at the start of this episode of Industry Voices, “The higher your expectations, the more likely something is to go sideways. And when it does, everyone from the airlines to the Online Travel Agencies (OTAs) finds themselves in the hot seat.”
To explore how brands can turn that chaos into opportunity, Mark sat down with Jamie Perry, President of Paisly, the newly rebranded travel subsidiary formerly known as JetBlue Travel Products. Perry shared insights on the company’s evolution, its partnership with United, and how Paisly is leveraging technology and loyalty data to deliver meaningful, personalized experiences.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Good afternoon, good morning.
Mark Johnson from Loyalty360.
Hope everyone's happy, safe, andwell.
I want to welcome you back toour Leaders in Customer Loyalty
series.
This is the Industry Voicespodcast.
In this series, we used to bewith leading agencies,
technology partners, andconsultants and customer channel
and brand loyalty about thetechnology trends and best
practices that impact a brand'sability to drive unique
(00:27):
experiences, enhance engagement,but most importantly, impact
customer loyalty.
Today we're going to be talkinga little bit about travel.
And let's be honest, travel iseither the most magical
experience you'll ever have or acomplete service.
There's rarely an in-between.
And the higher yourexpectations, the more likely
something is to go sideways.
(00:48):
And when it does, guess who's inthe hot seat?
Everyone.
From the cruise lines, theairlines and the hotels to the
OTAs and the travel agents andthose mysterious intermediaries
who somehow always end up in themix.
It's a high stakes of gainingabove these ones up.
And yet we keep coming back formore.
(01:09):
So in the spirit of makingtravel less chaotic and more
delightful, we're diving intohow to create engaging,
personalized experiences thatcan actually make customers feel
like someone cares and drivethat emotional loathing.
Crazy idea, right?
Today, want to jump into thatand learn a little bit more.
We're going to be sitting withJamie Perry.
(01:30):
He's a president of Paisley, avery unique and upcoming travel
entity that is hoping totransform the way customers view
travel.
Jamie, thank you very much fortaking the time to talk to us
today.
How are you?
Good.
Nice to meet you.
Uh absolutely nice to meet youas well.
Uh it's been a while.
Uh, but for those uh new to theshow, potentially, and new to
(01:53):
understanding Paisley, can yougive us a little bit of uh
introduction of what Paisley is,what you guys do, how you do it,
maybe what was the genesis ofthe company?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Sure.
So JetBlue is, as the airline is25 years old this year.
Um, and pretty much since thebeginning of its existence, it
has also sold non-air ancillaryproducts to its customers,
whether that be hotels, rentalcars, travel insurance, vacation
packages, etc.
Um, and what we've learned overtime is that many airlines sell
(02:21):
these products and theytypically go down a journey of
maturity as they do.
They commonly would start bysome kind of white label
partnership with an organizationthat sells these types of
products, which offers a quickand easy turnkey solution to
starting to sell non-airofferings.
But what you find is relativelyquickly the amount of revenue
(02:43):
they're able to make from thosepartnerships plateaus.
And that's largely because ofthere's very limited digital
integration or loyalty programintegration into the airline's
core offerings.
So you're able to make somemoney quite quickly, but the
amount of money you make throughthose types of partnerships
relatively quickly plateaus.
Then the next thing that happensis some airlines say, actually,
(03:05):
let's take this back in-houseand do it ourselves, because if
we do that, we can more deeplyintegrate the offerings into our
core flight offerings and intoour loyalty offerings.
So that's like sort of phasetwo.
Um, and when you do that, youfind that um you start to grow
the revenue that you'regenerating from these products
again, uh, as JetBlue did, butthen you reach a second plateau.
And that second plateau istypically caused by the fact
(03:28):
that you need resources to growthe business.
You need money, you need people,you need technology time,
whatever it might be to actuallygrow the business as you want to
grow it.
But when you're facing thoseinternal battles with the
airline as to who gets whatresources and prioritization of
resources, this business wouldtypically lose out because it's
smaller than the airline.
So it doesn't get the people, itdoesn't get the money, it
(03:51):
doesn't get the attention itneeds, and it's therefore unable
to grow the way people wouldlike it to grow.
Now, what we did in 2018 was tosay we're going to solve that
resource constraint problem byactually taking the business and
spinning it out into a separatecompany.
So in 2018, what we are now wascreated as JetBlue Travel
Products, a hundred percentowned subsidiary of JetBlue, and
(04:14):
we were given independence overour resources.
We were given our own budget,we're able to decide who we
hired, what technology we builtor didn't build, how we
invested, and so on.
And that led to a third round ofgrowth for us.
Um, now we've recently reached aplat, a third plateau that comes
around because the nextconstraint you face is you can
(04:36):
only grow as fast as the airlineis growing, because the airline
is essentially providing youwith the source of leads for you
to sell things to.
And as you start to maximize theamount of money you can make per
lead, the growth of those leadsbecomes the constraint.
So, what we've done now with theUnited partnership, which we're
going to come on talk about in aminute, is we have actually been
(04:59):
able to, we're now able to growbeyond simply JetBlue by working
with um United and sellingproduct to United customers as
well.
So that will unlock the fourthround of growth for us.
But starting to work with Jetwith United as an airline
partner as well as just JetBluehas led us to rebrand.
So we're not so closely tied tothe JetBlue brand anymore, which
(05:20):
is why we've changed the namefrom JetBlue Travel Products to
Paisley.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Okay, excellent.
So you you talked about some ofthe kind of uh benefits of the
rebrand, uh getting a little bitless uh tied in or affiliated
with JetBlue, allows you to kindof open up and partner with
others.
You know, uh, does uh thealignment have uh anything in
synergy with regard to kind ofthe broader jet forward strategy
(05:43):
at JetBlue as well?
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Absolutely.
So there are four pillars underthe JetBlue uh Jet Forward
strategy, one of which isproducts and perks, and that's
where we sit.
So, on the one hand, uh wecontinue to grow the offerings
that we present to JetBlue uhcustomers and TrueBlue members,
uh, and we'll talk a little bitmore about how we personalize
those offers and how we makethose more relevant to people.
(06:07):
So that's one driver of growth,but also by being able now to uh
to work with United and theircustomers and their mileage plus
members as well, we open up awhole new uh growth avenue for
Paisley and ultimately forJetBlue.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
Okay.
When you look at uh kind of thetechnical uh opportunities,
because obviously Paisley has adeep foundation rooted in
technology and technology, kindof the efficacy of said
technology.
When you look at the maintainingthe technical foundations of
Paisley, but you know, wantingto deliver a distinct, uh unique
and aligned booking experiencefor JetBlue customers, for
(06:43):
United customers, and for otherswho maybe uh go and engage with
the service going forward.
How do you balance that?
How do you balance kind of thetechnology, the personalization,
uh depending on the kind ofscenario in which it's utilized?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yes.
So we, when we were founded, wenever intended to build any
technology, to write any code.
That was not the operatingmindset on day one.
We very much thought that wewere going to be more of an
integration play by working withsome of the large existing
technology providers and also arange of smaller startup uh
(07:20):
technology companies that we hadaccess to through our then
sister company um JetBlue TechVentures.
Um but what we found was themore we spoke to the large
established travel techcompanies, the more we found
that they had a product thatthey would make available to
you, but they weren't reallyopen to changing it in any way.
(07:41):
You would take what they had,but you, and there were maybe
five or six customization leversyou could pull, but beyond that,
it was what it was, right?
So they have the experience inthe space and they understand
the industry, but they weren'treally willing to work with us
to create something differentand new and special.
Similarly, the startups we workwith were willing to do
(08:02):
anything, right?
They had a thousand great ideas,uh, but they didn't have the
expertise, they didn't have theexperience.
And when push came to shuffle,they often couldn't actually
deliver on some of the ideas andthe uh and the um the sort of
enthusiasm that they had.
So we found ourselves atsomething of an impasse and
ultimately started to build outum some limited technology to
(08:23):
solve for the problems that wesaw that we felt needed to be
addressed.
But we still very are veryreluctant technologists, only
building where we think it'snecessary.
What we do try to do instead isleverage two things.
We are not trying to besomething to everyone, right?
We do not necessarily aspire tobe the organization that is
selling to every consumer inevery country in the world,
(08:45):
right?
That's not who we are.
There are others who are uh morecapable and better suited to
doing that.
What we do instead aspire to beis to be everything to someone,
right?
And that comes by beingincredibly relevant to people.
Um, and if we think about itthrough JetBlue and United's
lenses, that basically meansthey're loyalty members.
They are the people about whomthe airline knows the most and
(09:07):
about whom it has the most data.
And therefore, those are thecustomers for whom we are able
to put the most personalized andtailored offers in front of
them.
One of the things that we hear alot is that the only really
scarce resource in the universetoday is our time, our attention
span, right?
There are so many people outthere trying to grab our
(09:29):
attention with messages, withads, what have you, right?
Um, and if you want to cutthrough that noise and actually
be relevant, you that there'sthree things, three ways you can
do it.
You can be loud, right?
You can be constantlyadvertising, bombarding people
with ads all the time so thatthey ultimately engage with you.
You can be controversial, youcan go and try something
(09:50):
outlandish and different to grabsomeone's attention.
We don't aspire to be either ofthose.
What we aspire to be is to berelevant.
And relevance comes from reallyunderstanding who people are and
what they need and what theyvalue so that you can put the
right offer in front of theright person at the right price
at the right time.
And that's what we're trying todo here.
(10:10):
So most of what we do on thetechnology side is connect
existing resources together witha sort of very light touch on
the integration side, whilesimultaneously leveraging
customer data to put reallycompelling, valuable offers in
front of people at the righttime.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
You mentioned uh, as we were prepping for this, kind
of the challenges uh of movingfrom kind of a single uh kind of
client-provided entity to a morediverse entity.
And with travel, uh, tons ofcompetitors out there, right?
And and maybe not directcompetitors, things you know,
competitors that may be doingpart of what you're doing, some
of what you're doing, all ofwhat you're doing, from no
(10:51):
service to full service, uh, youknow, being kind of a loyalty,
quote unquote, expert.
Uh, the challenge of the fullservice is somewhat substantial,
right?
From depending if it's it's asmall boutique with five
employees to you know to toMacy's to you know the US post
office, gonna vary.
So look at that.
What were the most significantuh UX improvements that you uh
(11:14):
put in place that were needed toextend the platform from a
flight-only offering to more ofa full service offering?
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
It's a great question.
Um, so as I mentioned a secondago, what we aspire to do is to
put the right offer at the rightprice in front of the right
person at the right time, right?
Now, what that requires is a lotof work behind the scenes to
ingest all the data that youhave about individuals and then
sort through the various offersand products that you have
(11:44):
available to make the right onesavailable to them, right?
That's where the real smartshappens.
In terms of the UX, though, wehave this concept that we call
optimal distinctiveness, right?
There are some areas where youcan really benefit by being
different from the others andstanding out from the crowd.
And we choose to be differentthrough uh the human-centric
(12:08):
customer service approach thatwe take, uh, as opposed to the
highly automated approach mostothers take.
And also through this highlypersonalized uh offer that we
put in front of people by givingyou something that we talk about
as a segment of one, right?
I'm not looking at um all peoplewho are mosaics or all people
who are um mileage plus goldmembers.
(12:28):
I'm looking at you, Mark, andtrying to come up with the right
offer for you, which will bedifferent from the offer for me,
different for the offer from mywife, et cetera.
Now, in terms of the way thescreen looks, we found that
people are so used to the waytravel is booked today that they
don't actually want anythingthat is significantly different,
right?
They like the use of maps, forexample, and being able to look
(12:50):
at where properties are on mapswith price points hovering over
them.
They understand how that works,they're very comfortable with
that, right?
So we spend a lot of time tryingto figure out what are the areas
where we can differentiate witha difference and with impact in
a way which customers feel theyget extra value from, whilst
sticking to what they know inother areas so they don't feel
discombobulated or struggling tounderstand what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Okay.
When you look at uh thepersonalization of offers,
you've mentioned a number oftimes throughout the interview,
how important it is to make surethat the that they're relevant,
they're timely, the rightchannel.
Yes.
When you look at uh kind of thedata sets that are needed, uh
we've talked a little bit aboutleveraging itinerary data
potentially.
You know, what other types ofdata do you need?
And how can you or how do youlook at you know creating the
(13:35):
model, creating the algorithmsthat uh can make that irrelevant
to the customer?
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
Yes.
So we've learned someinteresting lessons on this one.
Um sometimes there is there issome things you will never know,
right?
For example, if you are flyingfrom Denver to Fort Lauderdale
on your own, right?
We can put a rental car offer infront of you that is perfect for
um a man flying from Denver toFort Lauderdale uh on his own.
(14:03):
There is no possible way we canknow that you are meeting 10 of
your buddies in Fort Lauderdaleuh and going to play in a soccer
tournament, right?
Because that's just notinformation we have access to.
So we recognize that there aresome limitations in terms of how
deeply you can personalize.
Um, but what you can start to dois you can start to look at
patterns through what peoplehave done in the past.
Uh, you can start to look atthings like people are telling
(14:25):
you in real time.
So, does this person always rankhotels based on um star rating?
Do they rank them on price fromlowest to highest?
These are signals that you canthat you can interpret in ways
that help you help inform you asto as to what the right offer I
should put in front of someoneis.
And also something that'sincredibly valuable is
(14:46):
understanding how many uhloyalty points you have, uh,
whether you have a Co-Brandcredit card, because then I can
start to merchandise offersbased around your individual
status.
So if you have a 500,000 trueblue points, I might put an
offer in front of you for ahotel that is priced entirely in
true blue points.
If you have 10,000 true bluepoints, that's not going to be
(15:09):
enough points to get an entirehotel stay, but I could
alternatively position that as adiscount off the available rate
by putting some putting the10,000 points you do have
towards it, right?
Um, and then the other thing wefound is incredibly useful and
often overlooked is justpublicly available data, right?
What's the weather forecastwhere you're going?
Something we found incrediblypowerful last year was what is
(15:30):
the agenda of the Taylor SwiftEras Tour, right?
Because there are things likethat that can really help inform
why you might be doing whatyou're doing in the travel space
and how we might be able to putan offer in front of you that is
relevant to what you're doing.
If you're flying from Denver toNewark last July with two
teenage girls on the same dayswhen there's a Taylor Swift
(15:52):
concert, rather than offeringyou a hotel in Times Square, I
might start thinking aboutoffering you a hotel in East
Rutherford, right?
Because it's probably morerelevant to where you're going
than the Midtown New York Hotelwould be.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Okay.
One of the things that uh webrought about the new program, I
know mosaic members get uhexclusive hotel perks and
benefits and bonus-relatedopportunities.
Is there a plan to potentiallytailor the offering kind of
holistically to moreloyalty-tiered redemption or
promotional opportunities?
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
Yeah, I mentioned earlier this concept we have of
a segment of one.
Um there are a number of offers.
The pricing in the accommodationindustry and the cruise industry
is incredibly complicated.
One of the things that Paisleydoes is it ingests all available
pricing and figures out in realtime what is the best offer we
can put in front of you.
(16:41):
Now, sometimes that will be afunction of the fact that you've
already got a flight booked,sometimes it will be a function
of your loyalty member, um, yourloyalty tier status or the fact
that you're a member of aloyalty program.
There are other criteria aswell.
We do all that behind the scenesand make sure that we're putting
the lowest price point in frontof you that you qualify for.
Um, beyond that, it's reallymuch more about individual
(17:03):
personalization than it is aboutblanket across three or four
segments.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Okay.
When you look at uh customerloyalty, uh are there programs
that you admire uh holisticallyfrom a kind of a customer
engagement, customer loyaltyperspective?
Uh what do you like about theirofferings?
And do you take some of thatpotentially even include it in
kind of the Paisley offering?
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah, I I'm not going to name names because I'm
a man of peace, but I um thereare a couple of credit uh
attributes I look at when I'mlooking at other loyalty
programs that I admire.
One is leaning into what I saidearlier, programs that are
relevant to me, right?
What are the ones that arereally understanding who I am
and what I'm doing and putmessaging and offers in front of
me that work for me.
(17:43):
Those are the ones I think arethe most effective.
The other thing I really like isprograms that find a way to
engage with you every day,right?
If you think about airlines,very, very few people are buying
flights every day or eventhinking about buying flights
every day.
Hell, some people don't travelmore than once a year or once
every two years, right?
So if you're able to actuallyfind a way through your loyalty
(18:06):
program to get me to engage withthe program once a day, once a
week, even if I only travel oncea year, then that's how you
really start to get your brandto be top of mind so that when I
do come to book a flight, Ithink of whoever you are as
opposed to someone else.
Because I've been engaging withyour loyalty program that much
more frequently and thatregularly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
Okay.
When you look at customerexpectations, uh, there's some
headwinds right now from theeconomic perspective.
And you continue to read in thetravel industry that kind of the
upper tiers, mid-upper tiers aredoing well, economy uh is
struggling a little bitholistically, both uh in the US
and internationally.
You know, what other customerexpectations uh do you see
(18:47):
potentially changing orevolving, you know, through the
rest of 25, going into 26, andhow should brands, especially in
the travel industry, prepare tomeet them?
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
And I think we have to look atsocial media, right?
If there's one thing we can takeaway from the last 20 years,
right?
Imagine going home in theevening after work, you turn on
linear TV, one of the networks,doesn't matter which one, it's
entertaining, right?
You can watch, there'll besomething you'll watch, right?
Other alternatively, you go homeand you put on Netflix or you go
(19:15):
to uh Instagram on your phone,you're gonna feel much more
compelling content there becausewhat's there is so personalized
to you.
It's so relevant to you.
It comes from what you've donein the past, what people like
you have done in the past, um,what your friends have done, et
cetera.
Uh, which is why those channelsare winning relative to the
legacy TV networks.
And I think the same is true fortravel, right?
(19:38):
It's about it's on usincreasingly to find ways to be
relevant to our customers, to betalking to them about things
that they care about thatmatter.
Um, and if we can continue to dothat, I think that will keep us
in the conversation uh as timeis increasingly scarce.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Okay.
So what's next for Paisley?
What's next uh for you guys?
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Great question.
Well, we've obviously uh wewe've obviously partnered with
United in the next sort of sixto 12 months is very much
focused on executing on what wehave agreed to uh and bringing
that those programs live.
So everybody's very focused onthat.
Longer term, uh, I would love tosee us bring on more airline
partners in due course.
Um, but I think uh certainly fornow we're we're very much
(20:19):
focused on just making a successof the uh the United
Partnership.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Excellent.
Well, thank you very much uh fortaking the time to talk today.
It was great uh getting to knowa little bit more about the
program, a little bit more aboutyou, Jamie.
But uh uh don't jump off yet,because uh we have our favorite
uh quick fire question roundwhere we we like to keep the
responses to uh you know a wordor a short phrase, and uh
they're usually veryinteresting.
So here we go.
(20:44):
What's your favorite word?
Joy.
Excellent.
What is your least favoriteword?
Pain.
What excites you?
Life.
Okay.
What uh do you find tiresome?
Passport application forms.
Okay.
What profession, other than thecurrent one, even one that you
currently have, would youpotentially be interested in
doing?
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Professional sailboat racer.
SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Okay.
Uh I mean what do you also enjoydoing that maybe you don't get
uh the the time to do as often?
Sailboat racing.
There you go.
Uh who inspired you to becomethe person that you are today?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
I've done many things in many industries, in
many places, and they allcontribute to who I am.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
Uh, what do you typically think about at the end
of the day?
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
My family.
And how do you want to beremembered by your friends and
family?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Someone who they could count on, who was always
there for them.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Excellent.
Well, Jamie, thanks again fortaking the time to speak with
the state.
It was great having you on theLeaders in Customer Loyalty
series, the Industry Voicespodcast.
Uh, looking forward to hearingmore from you and the Pegasus
team going forward, and thankyou very much.
Thank you for having me.
Absolutely.
Also, want to thank everyone fortaking the time to listen today.
Uh, if you haven't, please uhsubscribe and the Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast belowand follow us on uh YouTube.
(21:57):
Looking forward to having youguys back soon.
Until then, have a wonderfulday.
Good afternoon, good morning.
Mark Johnson from Loyalty360.
Hope everyone's happy, safe, andwell.
I want to welcome you back toour Leaders in Customer Loyalty
series.
This is the Industry Voicespodcast.
In this series, we used to bewith leading agencies,
technology partners, andconsultants and customer channel
and brand loyalty about thetechnology trends and best
practices that impact a brand'sability to drive unique
(00:27):
experiences, enhance engagement,but most importantly, impact
customer loyalty.
Today we're going to be talkinga little bit about travel.
And let's be honest, travel iseither the most magical
experience you'll ever have or acomplete service.
There's rarely an in-between.
And the higher yourexpectations, the more likely
something is to go sideways.
(00:48):
And when it does, guess who's inthe hot seat?
Everyone.
From the cruise lines, theairlines and the hotels to the
OTAs and the travel agents andthose mysterious intermediaries
who somehow always end up in themix.
It's a high stakes of gainingabove these ones up.
And yet we keep coming back formore.
(01:09):
So in the spirit of makingtravel less chaotic and more
delightful, we're diving intohow to create engaging,
personalized experiences thatcan actually make customers feel
like someone cares and drivethat emotional loathing.
Crazy idea, right?
Today, want to jump into thatand learn a little bit more.
We're going to be sitting withJamie Perry.
(01:30):
He's a president of Paisley, avery unique and upcoming travel
entity that is hoping totransform the way customers view
travel.
Jamie, thank you very much fortaking the time to talk to us
today.
How are you?
Good.
Nice to meet you.
Uh absolutely nice to meet youas well.
Uh it's been a while.
Uh, but for those uh new to theshow, potentially, and new to
(01:53):
understanding Paisley, can yougive us a little bit of uh
introduction of what Paisley is,what you guys do, how you do it,
maybe what was the genesis ofthe company?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Sure.
So JetBlue is, as the airline is25 years old this year.
Um, and pretty much since thebeginning of its existence, it
has also sold non-air ancillaryproducts to its customers,
whether that be hotels, rentalcars, travel insurance, vacation
packages, etc.
Um, and what we've learned overtime is that many airlines sell
(02:21):
these products and theytypically go down a journey of
maturity as they do.
They commonly would start bysome kind of white label
partnership with an organizationthat sells these types of
products, which offers a quickand easy turnkey solution to
starting to sell non-airofferings.
But what you find is relativelyquickly the amount of revenue
(02:43):
they're able to make from thosepartnerships plateaus.
And that's largely because ofthere's very limited digital
integration or loyalty programintegration into the airline's
core offerings.
So you're able to make somemoney quite quickly, but the
amount of money you make throughthose types of partnerships
relatively quickly plateaus.
Then the next thing that happensis some airlines say, actually,
(03:05):
let's take this back in-houseand do it ourselves, because if
we do that, we can more deeplyintegrate the offerings into our
core flight offerings and intoour loyalty offerings.
So that's like sort of phasetwo.
Um, and when you do that, youfind that um you start to grow
the revenue that you'regenerating from these products
again, uh, as JetBlue did, butthen you reach a second plateau.
And that second plateau istypically caused by the fact
(03:28):
that you need resources to growthe business.
You need money, you need people,you need technology time,
whatever it might be to actuallygrow the business as you want to
grow it.
But when you're facing thoseinternal battles with the
airline as to who gets whatresources and prioritization of
resources, this business wouldtypically lose out because it's
smaller than the airline.
So it doesn't get the people, itdoesn't get the money, it
(03:51):
doesn't get the attention itneeds, and it's therefore unable
to grow the way people wouldlike it to grow.
Now, what we did in 2018 was tosay we're going to solve that
resource constraint problem byactually taking the business and
spinning it out into a separatecompany.
So in 2018, what we are now wascreated as JetBlue Travel
Products, a hundred percentowned subsidiary of JetBlue, and
(04:14):
we were given independence overour resources.
We were given our own budget,we're able to decide who we
hired, what technology we builtor didn't build, how we
invested, and so on.
And that led to a third round ofgrowth for us.
Um, now we've recently reached aplat, a third plateau that comes
around because the nextconstraint you face is you can
(04:36):
only grow as fast as the airlineis growing, because the airline
is essentially providing youwith the source of leads for you
to sell things to.
And as you start to maximize theamount of money you can make per
lead, the growth of those leadsbecomes the constraint.
So, what we've done now with theUnited partnership, which we're
going to come on talk about in aminute, is we have actually been
(04:59):
able to, we're now able to growbeyond simply JetBlue by working
with um United and sellingproduct to United customers as
well.
So that will unlock the fourthround of growth for us.
But starting to work with Jetwith United as an airline
partner as well as just JetBluehas led us to rebrand.
So we're not so closely tied tothe JetBlue brand anymore, which
(05:20):
is why we've changed the namefrom JetBlue Travel Products to
Paisley.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Okay, excellent.
So you you talked about some ofthe kind of uh benefits of the
rebrand, uh getting a little bitless uh tied in or affiliated
with JetBlue, allows you to kindof open up and partner with
others.
You know, uh, does uh thealignment have uh anything in
synergy with regard to kind ofthe broader jet forward strategy
(05:43):
at JetBlue as well?
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Absolutely.
So there are four pillars underthe JetBlue uh Jet Forward
strategy, one of which isproducts and perks, and that's
where we sit.
So, on the one hand, uh wecontinue to grow the offerings
that we present to JetBlue uhcustomers and TrueBlue members,
uh, and we'll talk a little bitmore about how we personalize
those offers and how we makethose more relevant to people.
(06:07):
So that's one driver of growth,but also by being able now to uh
to work with United and theircustomers and their mileage plus
members as well, we open up awhole new uh growth avenue for
Paisley and ultimately forJetBlue.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
Okay.
When you look at uh kind of thetechnical uh opportunities,
because obviously Paisley has adeep foundation rooted in
technology and technology, kindof the efficacy of said
technology.
When you look at the maintainingthe technical foundations of
Paisley, but you know, wantingto deliver a distinct, uh unique
and aligned booking experiencefor JetBlue customers, for
(06:43):
United customers, and for otherswho maybe uh go and engage with
the service going forward.
How do you balance that?
How do you balance kind of thetechnology, the personalization,
uh depending on the kind ofscenario in which it's utilized?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yes.
So we, when we were founded, wenever intended to build any
technology, to write any code.
That was not the operatingmindset on day one.
We very much thought that wewere going to be more of an
integration play by working withsome of the large existing
technology providers and also arange of smaller startup uh
(07:20):
technology companies that we hadaccess to through our then
sister company um JetBlue TechVentures.
Um but what we found was themore we spoke to the large
established travel techcompanies, the more we found
that they had a product thatthey would make available to
you, but they weren't reallyopen to changing it in any way.
(07:41):
You would take what they had,but you, and there were maybe
five or six customization leversyou could pull, but beyond that,
it was what it was, right?
So they have the experience inthe space and they understand
the industry, but they weren'treally willing to work with us
to create something differentand new and special.
Similarly, the startups we workwith were willing to do
(08:02):
anything, right?
They had a thousand great ideas,uh, but they didn't have the
expertise, they didn't have theexperience.
And when push came to shuffle,they often couldn't actually
deliver on some of the ideas andthe uh and the um the sort of
enthusiasm that they had.
So we found ourselves atsomething of an impasse and
ultimately started to build outum some limited technology to
(08:23):
solve for the problems that wesaw that we felt needed to be
addressed.
But we still very are veryreluctant technologists, only
building where we think it'snecessary.
What we do try to do instead isleverage two things.
We are not trying to besomething to everyone, right?
We do not necessarily aspire tobe the organization that is
selling to every consumer inevery country in the world,
(08:45):
right?
That's not who we are.
There are others who are uh morecapable and better suited to
doing that.
What we do instead aspire to beis to be everything to someone,
right?
And that comes by beingincredibly relevant to people.
Um, and if we think about itthrough JetBlue and United's
lenses, that basically meansthey're loyalty members.
They are the people about whomthe airline knows the most and
(09:07):
about whom it has the most data.
And therefore, those are thecustomers for whom we are able
to put the most personalized andtailored offers in front of
them.
One of the things that we hear alot is that the only really
scarce resource in the universetoday is our time, our attention
span, right?
There are so many people outthere trying to grab our
(09:29):
attention with messages, withads, what have you, right?
Um, and if you want to cutthrough that noise and actually
be relevant, you that there'sthree things, three ways you can
do it.
You can be loud, right?
You can be constantlyadvertising, bombarding people
with ads all the time so thatthey ultimately engage with you.
You can be controversial, youcan go and try something
(09:50):
outlandish and different to grabsomeone's attention.
We don't aspire to be either ofthose.
What we aspire to be is to berelevant.
And relevance comes from reallyunderstanding who people are and
what they need and what theyvalue so that you can put the
right offer in front of theright person at the right price
at the right time.
And that's what we're trying todo here.
(10:10):
So most of what we do on thetechnology side is connect
existing resources together witha sort of very light touch on
the integration side, whilesimultaneously leveraging
customer data to put reallycompelling, valuable offers in
front of people at the righttime.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
You mentioned uh, as we were prepping for this, kind
of the challenges uh of movingfrom kind of a single uh kind of
client-provided entity to a morediverse entity.
And with travel, uh, tons ofcompetitors out there, right?
And and maybe not directcompetitors, things you know,
competitors that may be doingpart of what you're doing, some
of what you're doing, all ofwhat you're doing, from no
(10:51):
service to full service, uh, youknow, being kind of a loyalty,
quote unquote, expert.
Uh, the challenge of the fullservice is somewhat substantial,
right?
From depending if it's it's asmall boutique with five
employees to you know to toMacy's to you know the US post
office, gonna vary.
So look at that.
What were the most significantuh UX improvements that you uh
(11:14):
put in place that were needed toextend the platform from a
flight-only offering to more ofa full service offering?
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
It's a great question.
Um, so as I mentioned a secondago, what we aspire to do is to
put the right offer at the rightprice in front of the right
person at the right time, right?
Now, what that requires is a lotof work behind the scenes to
ingest all the data that youhave about individuals and then
sort through the various offersand products that you have
(11:44):
available to make the right onesavailable to them, right?
That's where the real smartshappens.
In terms of the UX, though, wehave this concept that we call
optimal distinctiveness, right?
There are some areas where youcan really benefit by being
different from the others andstanding out from the crowd.
And we choose to be differentthrough uh the human-centric
(12:08):
customer service approach thatwe take, uh, as opposed to the
highly automated approach mostothers take.
And also through this highlypersonalized uh offer that we
put in front of people by givingyou something that we talk about
as a segment of one, right?
I'm not looking at um all peoplewho are mosaics or all people
who are um mileage plus goldmembers.
(12:28):
I'm looking at you, Mark, andtrying to come up with the right
offer for you, which will bedifferent from the offer for me,
different for the offer from mywife, et cetera.
Now, in terms of the way thescreen looks, we found that
people are so used to the waytravel is booked today that they
don't actually want anythingthat is significantly different,
right?
They like the use of maps, forexample, and being able to look
(12:50):
at where properties are on mapswith price points hovering over
them.
They understand how that works,they're very comfortable with
that, right?
So we spend a lot of time tryingto figure out what are the areas
where we can differentiate witha difference and with impact in
a way which customers feel theyget extra value from, whilst
sticking to what they know inother areas so they don't feel
discombobulated or struggling tounderstand what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Okay.
When you look at uh thepersonalization of offers,
you've mentioned a number oftimes throughout the interview,
how important it is to make surethat the that they're relevant,
they're timely, the rightchannel.
Yes.
When you look at uh kind of thedata sets that are needed, uh
we've talked a little bit aboutleveraging itinerary data
potentially.
You know, what other types ofdata do you need?
And how can you or how do youlook at you know creating the
(13:35):
model, creating the algorithmsthat uh can make that irrelevant
to the customer?
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
Yes.
So we've learned someinteresting lessons on this one.
Um sometimes there is there issome things you will never know,
right?
For example, if you are flyingfrom Denver to Fort Lauderdale
on your own, right?
We can put a rental car offer infront of you that is perfect for
um a man flying from Denver toFort Lauderdale uh on his own.
(14:03):
There is no possible way we canknow that you are meeting 10 of
your buddies in Fort Lauderdaleuh and going to play in a soccer
tournament, right?
Because that's just notinformation we have access to.
So we recognize that there aresome limitations in terms of how
deeply you can personalize.
Um, but what you can start to dois you can start to look at
patterns through what peoplehave done in the past.
Uh, you can start to look atthings like people are telling
(14:25):
you in real time.
So, does this person always rankhotels based on um star rating?
Do they rank them on price fromlowest to highest?
These are signals that you canthat you can interpret in ways
that help you help inform you asto as to what the right offer I
should put in front of someoneis.
And also something that'sincredibly valuable is
(14:46):
understanding how many uhloyalty points you have, uh,
whether you have a Co-Brandcredit card, because then I can
start to merchandise offersbased around your individual
status.
So if you have a 500,000 trueblue points, I might put an
offer in front of you for ahotel that is priced entirely in
true blue points.
If you have 10,000 true bluepoints, that's not going to be
(15:09):
enough points to get an entirehotel stay, but I could
alternatively position that as adiscount off the available rate
by putting some putting the10,000 points you do have
towards it, right?
Um, and then the other thing wefound is incredibly useful and
often overlooked is justpublicly available data, right?
What's the weather forecastwhere you're going?
Something we found incrediblypowerful last year was what is
(15:30):
the agenda of the Taylor SwiftEras Tour, right?
Because there are things likethat that can really help inform
why you might be doing whatyou're doing in the travel space
and how we might be able to putan offer in front of you that is
relevant to what you're doing.
If you're flying from Denver toNewark last July with two
teenage girls on the same dayswhen there's a Taylor Swift
(15:52):
concert, rather than offeringyou a hotel in Times Square, I
might start thinking aboutoffering you a hotel in East
Rutherford, right?
Because it's probably morerelevant to where you're going
than the Midtown New York Hotelwould be.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
Okay.
One of the things that uh webrought about the new program, I
know mosaic members get uhexclusive hotel perks and
benefits and bonus-relatedopportunities.
Is there a plan to potentiallytailor the offering kind of
holistically to moreloyalty-tiered redemption or
promotional opportunities?
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
Yeah, I mentioned earlier this concept we have of
a segment of one.
Um there are a number of offers.
The pricing in the accommodationindustry and the cruise industry
is incredibly complicated.
One of the things that Paisleydoes is it ingests all available
pricing and figures out in realtime what is the best offer we
can put in front of you.
(16:41):
Now, sometimes that will be afunction of the fact that you've
already got a flight booked,sometimes it will be a function
of your loyalty member, um, yourloyalty tier status or the fact
that you're a member of aloyalty program.
There are other criteria aswell.
We do all that behind the scenesand make sure that we're putting
the lowest price point in frontof you that you qualify for.
Um, beyond that, it's reallymuch more about individual
(17:03):
personalization than it is aboutblanket across three or four
segments.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Okay.
When you look at uh customerloyalty, uh are there programs
that you admire uh holisticallyfrom a kind of a customer
engagement, customer loyaltyperspective?
Uh what do you like about theirofferings?
And do you take some of thatpotentially even include it in
kind of the Paisley offering?
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah, I I'm not going to name names because I'm
a man of peace, but I um thereare a couple of credit uh
attributes I look at when I'mlooking at other loyalty
programs that I admire.
One is leaning into what I saidearlier, programs that are
relevant to me, right?
What are the ones that arereally understanding who I am
and what I'm doing and putmessaging and offers in front of
me that work for me.
(17:43):
Those are the ones I think arethe most effective.
The other thing I really like isprograms that find a way to
engage with you every day,right?
If you think about airlines,very, very few people are buying
flights every day or eventhinking about buying flights
every day.
Hell, some people don't travelmore than once a year or once
every two years, right?
So if you're able to actuallyfind a way through your loyalty
(18:06):
program to get me to engage withthe program once a day, once a
week, even if I only travel oncea year, then that's how you
really start to get your brandto be top of mind so that when I
do come to book a flight, Ithink of whoever you are as
opposed to someone else.
Because I've been engaging withyour loyalty program that much
more frequently and thatregularly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
Okay.
When you look at customerexpectations, uh, there's some
headwinds right now from theeconomic perspective.
And you continue to read in thetravel industry that kind of the
upper tiers, mid-upper tiers aredoing well, economy uh is
struggling a little bitholistically, both uh in the US
and internationally.
You know, what other customerexpectations uh do you see
(18:47):
potentially changing orevolving, you know, through the
rest of 25, going into 26, andhow should brands, especially in
the travel industry, prepare tomeet them?
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
And I think we have to look atsocial media, right?
If there's one thing we can takeaway from the last 20 years,
right?
Imagine going home in theevening after work, you turn on
linear TV, one of the networks,doesn't matter which one, it's
entertaining, right?
You can watch, there'll besomething you'll watch, right?
Other alternatively, you go homeand you put on Netflix or you go
(19:15):
to uh Instagram on your phone,you're gonna feel much more
compelling content there becausewhat's there is so personalized
to you.
It's so relevant to you.
It comes from what you've donein the past, what people like
you have done in the past, um,what your friends have done, et
cetera.
Uh, which is why those channelsare winning relative to the
legacy TV networks.
And I think the same is true fortravel, right?
(19:38):
It's about it's on usincreasingly to find ways to be
relevant to our customers, to betalking to them about things
that they care about thatmatter.
Um, and if we can continue to dothat, I think that will keep us
in the conversation uh as timeis increasingly scarce.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Okay.
So what's next for Paisley?
What's next uh for you guys?
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Great question.
Well, we've obviously uh wewe've obviously partnered with
United in the next sort of sixto 12 months is very much
focused on executing on what wehave agreed to uh and bringing
that those programs live.
So everybody's very focused onthat.
Longer term, uh, I would love tosee us bring on more airline
partners in due course.
Um, but I think uh certainly fornow we're we're very much
(20:19):
focused on just making a successof the uh the United
Partnership.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Excellent.
Well, thank you very much uh fortaking the time to talk today.
It was great uh getting to knowa little bit more about the
program, a little bit more aboutyou, Jamie.
But uh uh don't jump off yet,because uh we have our favorite
uh quick fire question roundwhere we we like to keep the
responses to uh you know a wordor a short phrase, and uh
they're usually veryinteresting.
So here we go.
(20:44):
What's your favorite word?
Joy.
Excellent.
What is your least favoriteword?
Pain.
What excites you?
Life.
Okay.
What uh do you find tiresome?
Passport application forms.
Okay.
What profession, other than thecurrent one, even one that you
currently have, would youpotentially be interested in
doing?
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Professional sailboat racer.
SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Okay.
Uh I mean what do you also enjoydoing that maybe you don't get
uh the the time to do as often?
Sailboat racing.
There you go.
Uh who inspired you to becomethe person that you are today?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
I've done many things in many industries, in
many places, and they allcontribute to who I am.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
Uh, what do you typically think about at the end
of the day?
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
My family.
And how do you want to beremembered by your friends and
family?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Someone who they could count on, who was always
there for them.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Excellent.
Well, Jamie, thanks again fortaking the time to speak with
the state.
It was great having you on theLeaders in Customer Loyalty
series, the Industry Voicespodcast.
Uh, looking forward to hearingmore from you and the Pegasus
team going forward, and thankyou very much.
Thank you for having me.
Absolutely.
Also, want to thank everyone fortaking the time to listen today.
Uh, if you haven't, please uhsubscribe and the Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast belowand follow us on uh YouTube.
(21:57):
Looking forward to having youguys back soon.
Until then, have a wonderfulday.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com