In an era where brands are increasingly scrutinizing the financial impact of their loyalty strategies, Jonathan Silver, CEO of Engage People, has a clear message: loyalty programs must drive measurable, positive ROI or risk becoming expendable.
Speaking with Loyalty360 as part of the "Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Industry Voices" series, Silver shared his perspective on where loyalty is headed, the technologies reshaping customer engagement, and the strategies brands must embrace to ensure their programs succeed.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good afternoon and good morning.
This is Ethan Perry, directorof Content at Loyalty360,
welcoming you to another editionof our Leaders in Customer
Loyalty Industry Voices series.
In these episodes, we talk tothe leading agencies, technology
partners and consultants incustomer channel and brand
loyalty about the technologytrends and best practices that
(00:24):
impact the ability of brands todrive unique experiences,
enhance engagement and, mostimportantly, customer loyalty.
Today we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Jonathan silver,
the CEO at engage people.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome, jonathan, thank you for joining us hey,
thanks for having me a pleasureto be here excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Well, to start off, can you tell our audience a
little bit about yourself, yourrole with engage people and a
little bit about your background?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
sure.
So ceo of engage people.
Um been in this industry myentire life.
Quite by accident started witha developer and moved along
through the world that way ummetage.
I'm responsible for strategyand vision as to where we're
going and then working with allthe teams on our products and
(01:10):
our clients and making sure wecontinue to deliver excellence
to our clients.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Great and for those who might not be familiar with
how Engage People supports abrand's customer loyalty efforts
, can you give us a briefoverview of what you do and the
industries that you work with?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure.
So we are a loyalty technologycompany.
We bring really two products tomarket.
We have a loyalty managementsoftware platform that just
manages end-to-end loyaltyprograms for customers, and it's
everything from segmentation,marketing, communications,
rewards, member engagement andso on.
(01:46):
And then the other product webring to market is our Pay With
Points technology, and so it's aproduct that allows people to
use their points as a form ofpayment at checkout at our
participating retailers.
And that's the product that isgrowing rapidly and changing the
way the industry operates.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I'm sure we've all had some experience with paying
with points here and there, yeah, so how do you define customer
loyalty?
What does that mean to yourorganization?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So, you know, it kind of a little bit varies by
customer, but at the end of theday, our clients are looking for
ways to engage their members ina more meaningful way, in a
more financial ROI, and drivebenefits to their membership.
And so for certain customersit'll be everything from it's
(02:37):
about data and engagement, othercustomers it's frequency,
sometimes it's retention, and soit's very much around aligning
what is a brand or a company'sobjectives, what they're trying
to achieve and how they defineloyalty, and then how can we
help them drive the results thatthey need out of their loyalty
program.
And, at the end of the day, forus, a loyalty program is
(03:00):
actually a financial vehicle.
It needs to have a positive ROI.
You need to be able to sit infront of your CFO and go.
Here's the benefits we aredriving to the business, and so
that's kind of we really leaveit up to our customers to define
loyalty, but for us it's abouthelping them achieve those
business results Great.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, we saw in our most recent State of Customer
Loyalty report that 79% of thebrands we surveyed have an
interest in updating, enhancingor redoing their customer
loyalty offerings.
Do you see any specificindustries leading the charge in
loyalty program innovation and,if so, which ones, and what are
they doing differently?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You know so, across the board, you're seeing
incredible innovations.
differently, you know so acrossthe board, you're seeing
incredible innovations, you knowand so, whether it's around
better segmentation and using AIto drive better communications
and marketing to a member youknow, for airlines and hotels,
it's identifying your topcustomers and putting the right
benefits in front of them, abovejust miles or points, and
(04:02):
making sure that your topcustomers are actually treated
as top customers and recognizedas such.
For more transactionalcustomers, it's very much making
sure that the benefits you putin front of them are relevant
and meaningful.
And then, as we're expanding it, we're seeing more and more
partnerships, and so we'reseeing companies who you don't
think aligned or don't match updoing stuff together because hey
(04:27):
, you both got a currency, I'lllet people redeem my currency at
your location and you do thesame.
And we both grow up high andboth increase our member
engagement across the board.
So we're seeing a lot more ofthat as well.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Awesome, and you mentioned new technology.
Among those things like AI,gamification, zero-party and
first-party data collection.
Which technological innovationsdo you believe will have the
greatest impact on loyaltyprograms in 2025, and why?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
So, look, ai is still in its infancy.
I don't think we're going tosee the real ramifications of
that for a year or so, but youare seeing more and more tools
around.
How do I save and communicateto my base in a more effective
way and how can I give you adifferent message to me in a
(05:26):
cost-effective way that'smeaningful and relevant, without
having a human go through andall the data analytics and stuff
?
You know the other thing, whatwe're.
I'm just trying to think whatelse we're seeing that's going
to impact.
This year.
A lot of customers are revampingtheir programs.
There's a cost issue andthere's a you know and can I
measure the benefit, and sowe're seeing a lot of work being
done around.
What is the actual cost benefit?
What are the metrics I need toput in place so that I can get
(05:50):
better funding, make sure itstays top of the mindshare
inside of an organization, andwhat can I do to actually drive
meaningful benefit to themembers in the program at a
lower cost?
And at the end of the day, thisis an expense, so we need to
make sure there is an ROIattached to it.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, that's definitely something that we
continue to hear about from ourmembers as well how to balance
that.
You also kind of touched onsome of the ways in which
customer interaction is changingwith technology, as those
interactions continue to spanboth digital and physical
channels.
How do loyalty programsintegrate both you know
(06:29):
in-person and online experiencesfor a seamless and cohesive
customer journey?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, so you know.
Our mandate around our Pay WithPoints product is to engage a
member at checkout in a way thatthey're being engaged at that
moment in time, and so webelieve it's okay to communicate
with a member on that phoneemail.
However, you do it Prior to anengagement.
Hey, you're walking into a mallhere's an offer, which is fine,
but when you're at checkout andI'm going to give you an offer
(06:55):
it needs to be at the POSterminal so that, whether you're
tapping your card or you'rechecking out online, it'll say,
hey, here is a benefit for you.
Do you want it, and that couldbe.
Do you want to reduce it?
Use your points from a thirdparty as part of that checkout
process, or it could be an offer.
But asking people to go and dosomething go register for this,
(07:18):
go do that doesn't drive thesame results in engagement that
we want to keep it meaningful intime and at the moment of truth
.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
basically Cool, so switching gears a little.
What are some of the commonreasons that loyalty programs
fail to meet their goals, andhow do you think brands can
address these issues?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It also comes back down to industry-specific issues
, a lot of it's legacy systems,and then you've also got
compliance and security andrestrictions around what you can
and cannot do.
The US is a little easier tooperate in than in other
countries, where we have muchstricter data and privacy rules,
but at the end of the day, youneed corporate and C-suite
(08:08):
buy-in on your program andhistorically, I don't think
we've spent enough time onfinancial metrics, financial
objectives and so when peopleare looking at their issues,
some of these require massiveinvestments.
If you're a retailer and youwant to revamp your entire
(08:30):
member engagement strategy,that's a big technology
investment, as well as researchand analytics upfront to make
sure you're getting it right,and so you need to have the
right metrics and goals andobjectives in place.
And then people make them toocomplex.
It's got to be simple.
(08:50):
Think about it as a consumer.
You know social media hastrained people to be engaged for
20 seconds, 30 seconds, so yourcommunications have to fit into
that and the benefits have tobe realized in that 20, 30
seconds.
You can't make stuffcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So you mentioned metrics.
What are the most criticalmetrics brands should be
tracking to measure the successof their loyalty programs in
2025?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know what?
Unfortunately, it's abrand-specific objective.
If you're a high-frequencybrand, your grocery store wants
you to come in right.
Can I increase your frequencyshare of wallet and increase
your basket size?
You know, if I'm a verticallyintegrated, can I get
third-party data.
You know it's SKU level so Ican get other people to pay for
(09:44):
promotions and offers and stufflike that.
If you're a financialinstitution, it's how do I drive
spend on my card retentionengagement?
Make it meaningful and relevantto the member.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But if you're a higher-end, low-frequency brand.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
your loyalty program is completely different.
At that point it's not a pointsprogram anymore, it could be
VIP events and it's a differentkind of strategy altogether, and
so we always look when we talkto our clients.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
it's what are you trying to?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
achieve.
Who's your market, what's yourfrequency, what's the ticket
size?
If you're a low ticket, lowfrequency, you need to partner.
You're not going to get thereon your own and so just find the
right partners that are goingto help you get there.
So it's a very complicatedthere isn't a one size that fits
all, and we're always workingwith our clients on what are
(10:29):
your objectives?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
What's the world you?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
live in.
And then how do we get there ina cost-effective way?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Totally, that makes perfect sense.
Are there any metrics you seethat you think are underutilized
or overlooked when assessingthe success of loyalty programs?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Again, industry specific.
If you're a credit card company, retention is a big one.
So what happens is people lookat me and go, hey, I'd like to
expire my points because there'sa financial value of those
points expiring.
But then I've just lost acustomer and I have to look at
the cost of acquisition for thatcustomer, what it cost me to
(11:09):
get them, what's going to costme to keep them versus the value
of devaluing or recouping thepoints.
For us we think making sure youknow there's that old adage
right Happy customer tell oneperson and unhappy customer tell
ten.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So making sure you've got all the right metrics and
all the right design in place tomake life easy for your members
and go from there so can youtell us what do you think is
working for some of your clientsright now when it comes to
building successful loyaltyprograms or loyalty strategies,
and maybe provide us with anexample or two?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
so completely biased here on this one, but um, um our
clients, our credit cardcompany loyalty programs and
their retail partners that haveintegrated pay with points have
had um the biggest impact I'veever seen on any loyalty
programs out of everything I'vedone in the last 35 years.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And it's everything from.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
We are seeing a significant increase in spend on
cards, we're seeing apercentage of inactive cards
becoming active, so coming tofront of the wallet and we're
seeing the cost per point maystay the same, but the
(12:28):
administrative costs of managingthat come way down.
So you have operational costsavings as well, and then the
companies they partner with, whoaccept the points, are seeing
an increase in sales, they'reseeing an increase in basket
size at a lower cost and themember engagement scores go up
through the roof.
And so it's the one thing we'veactually done where we see all
(12:51):
three parties involved love it,utilize it, and I always tell
people we get complaints when wego down for maintenance.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And so that tells us it's working.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So you know we're a firm believer that if you're a
brand and you're running yourown loyalty program, accepting a
credit card's loyalty points isaccretive to your program.
It brings in new customers, itdoesn't interfere with yours and
it actually enhances it as well.
And it's a great marketing toolFor the bank clients.
(13:21):
Their members are happier andthey're spending more and their
attention is up, so it's awin-win.
So you know biased on that one,but very much seeing the best
results we've ever seen out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
That's amazing.
That's a great example.
So, on a more personal level,are there programs that you
admire or that you're loyal toas a customer, and what do you
like about their offerings?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Sure, so I'm Canadian , so Air Canada has done a
really good job.
And look, we live on planes andso what they do and it's less
even about this is about status,not about miles, and it's the
ability to look, we changeflights on a constant basis, so
their concierge service isunbelievable, and so the value
(14:09):
prop of that concierge servicedrives me to make sure I keep my
status more than anything, andso you know we have that and I
think they do an incredibly goodjob of their member engagement
and their offers and the valueproposition behind their status.
The second one I use most isMarriott, which is becoming more
(14:37):
challenging.
It upgrades a few, but it'sstill early checkouts late
checkout are key for us.
Early checkouts, late checkoutare key for us and other than
that, I'm a terrible consumer.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I do the stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I like and loyal to the brands, but I'm not a good
consumer.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, I mean, it sounds like Air Canada is
keeping your loyalty, so they'redoing something right.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, they're doing a good job.
I have to give them credit.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Amazing your loyalty.
So they're doing somethingright.
Yeah, yeah, they're doing agood job.
I have to give them credit.
Yeah, amazing.
So I'm thinking about you know,consumers in general.
How do you think that consumerexpectations are going to
continue to evolve in 2025 andhow should forward thinking
brands start preparing to meetthem?
Yeah, you know, if you thinkabout um.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
How are we using?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
our devices.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I'm old, but my friends are already no longer
taking credit cards out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I was in Australia a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
We have clients out there.
I think about 80% of theirtransactions are now mobile.
So you know the technologyexists today.
We know where you are, we knowwhat you're doing.
As long as you've opted in, letme put something irrelevant and
meaningful in front of you atthe right moment.
And it's not a spam and I'vegot to be careful about it.
(15:59):
But if you're walking in a mallI can go.
Hey, ethan, by the way, if yougo to the store and spend $100,
there's $20 back, right, and youhave that.
And then you know, because thatcapability exists and now you
overlay that.
With you know the thebeginnings of ai, you'll be able
to start putting relevantoffers in front of people at the
(16:20):
right moment at the right timeabsolutely so.
We're starting to see brandstesting and working on that and
and I think it will become muchmore mainstream in the next
couple of years.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I've heard so much aboutsimilar things lately.
I think that's definitely onthe horizon, so do you have any
closing advice or thoughts thatyou'd like to share with our
audience?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, you know.
Look, you've got to try stuffnow.
Technology is allowing us to dosmall segment testing and see
what works, because everybody'sconsumers are different, right,
and the world's changing sorapidly that you know we have
the ability.
Today, we know our clients onour platform can create a
(17:05):
segment in real time put anoffer out in real time and see
how it goes, and so we're justencouraging people to try.
It's an interesting thing,because when we do research and
you ask people what they want,they'll say cash, Whether it's
an employee recognition program,whether it's a cash rebate on a
credit card.
Yet we get better results andbetter impact for non-cash.
(17:28):
So data and research doesn'talways give you the right answer
, and so we have this capabilityto test and learn, and so we
just encourage it as much as youcan and don't be afraid, and
some things will work and somethings won't, and you learn
along the way.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
I mean as a marketer, that'skind of at the root of what we
do every day.
I agree more.
I mean as a marketer, that'skind of, you know, at the root
of what we do every day.
So what's next for EngagePeople this year as we move
forward?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know we're launching some exciting new
clients, exciting new partnerson our retail and our payment
points network, and so that'sour big focus for the rest of
the year.
You know we have some clientson our platform launching as
well, so that's also exciting,but our main focus is expanding
(18:15):
that network and, as we're goingthrough between now and the
beginning of the holiday season,we'll have some big
announcements and your partnerswho are participating are really
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Amazing, can't wait to see it.
So that actually brings us toour famous quickfire section,
where we try to keep the answersto one word or a short phrase,
so we'll just kind of fire theseoff.
How would you describe yourwork life?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Like a pendulum, exciting and scary, going back
and forth every five minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So if you have a day or a week off from work, what
are you doing?
Family exercise friends usualstuff, nothing.
If you could live in any cityor country, where would you live
?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I live in Toronto, man, where else would you want
to live?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
If you could go back to school, what would you study?
Probably go back, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Toss up between aeronautical engineering and law
, and they're completelydifferent, but they were just
things I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
What facet of your job would you like to know more
about?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
The CEO of my company .
I better know it at this point,right, but look, we're always
learning, right.
I've got a great team.
I learn from all the time.
So I don't think there's asingle facet, it's just a
constant learning.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
What facet of your job would you like to know less
about?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Same thing Info security.
I know way too much and it's soimportant for everything we do.
And we spend so much time onthis.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, you know what I ?
It's weird, yeah.
So what motivates you whentackling challenges that engage
people?
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
we are the company that gets stuff done, and I like
that.
I like the fact that we have anunbelievable team.
Often I'll say I'd wantsomething I can't be done.
I'm like, all right, we we'lltalk to you on Monday and
they'll have a solution for me,and so it's always that.
It's like the.
It's the ability to you know wetake these challenges, we see
what our customers are lookingfor and we create something out
(20:20):
of nothing, and it's donebecause we have this incredible
team of people who are just offthe charts smart and they can
figure stuff out, so that's themost fun we have during a day.
Great.
What do you draw inspirationfrom?
What lights your fire?
You know it's about legacy.
(20:42):
So if we're successful with ourPay With Points network in a
couple of years, everyone'sgoing to be using their points
everywhere and there are only acouple of companies doing it and
our team's going to be able tolook back and go hey, we helped
build that, which is somethingcool that you know don't often
get to do and stay in a career.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
What is your favorite sport or hobby?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You know it was tennis, probably Santa cycling,
soccer, whatever anything whereyou're out with people and it's
enjoyable, right.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What do you typically think about at the end of the
day.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
All the stuff I didn't get done during the day.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Well, thank you, jonathan.
Thanks for taking the time tospeak with us today on the
Leaders in Customer LoyaltyIndustry Voices podcast.
It was great getting yourperspective on customer loyalty
and we look forward to learningmore from you and the team and
engage people throughout therest of this year.
I want to thank everyone fortuning in to our leaders and
customer loyalty podcast series.
(21:39):
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to the podcast.
Follow loyalty 360 on YouTubeand LinkedIn.
Please remember to come backevery Tuesday for another
edition of our Industry Voicesseries.
If you have questions, don'thesitate to reach out.
Good afternoon and good morning.
This is Ethan Perry, directorof Content at Loyalty360,
welcoming you to another editionof our Leaders in Customer
Loyalty Industry Voices series.
In these episodes, we talk tothe leading agencies, technology
partners and consultants incustomer channel and brand
loyalty about the technologytrends and best practices that
(00:24):
impact the ability of brands todrive unique experiences,
enhance engagement and, mostimportantly, customer loyalty.
Today we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Jonathan silver,
the CEO at engage people.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome, jonathan, thank you for joining us hey,
thanks for having me a pleasureto be here excellent.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Well, to start off, can you tell our audience a
little bit about yourself, yourrole with engage people and a
little bit about your background?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
sure.
So ceo of engage people.
Um been in this industry myentire life.
Quite by accident started witha developer and moved along
through the world that way ummetage.
I'm responsible for strategyand vision as to where we're
going and then working with allthe teams on our products and
(01:10):
our clients and making sure wecontinue to deliver excellence
to our clients.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Great and for those who might not be familiar with
how Engage People supports abrand's customer loyalty efforts
, can you give us a briefoverview of what you do and the
industries that you work with?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure.
So we are a loyalty technologycompany.
We bring really two products tomarket.
We have a loyalty managementsoftware platform that just
manages end-to-end loyaltyprograms for customers, and it's
everything from segmentation,marketing, communications,
rewards, member engagement andso on.
(01:46):
And then the other product webring to market is our Pay With
Points technology, and so it's aproduct that allows people to
use their points as a form ofpayment at checkout at our
participating retailers.
And that's the product that isgrowing rapidly and changing the
way the industry operates.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I'm sure we've all had some experience with paying
with points here and there, yeah, so how do you define customer
loyalty?
What does that mean to yourorganization?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So, you know, it kind of a little bit varies by
customer, but at the end of theday, our clients are looking for
ways to engage their members ina more meaningful way, in a
more financial ROI, and drivebenefits to their membership.
And so for certain customersit'll be everything from it's
(02:37):
about data and engagement, othercustomers it's frequency,
sometimes it's retention, and soit's very much around aligning
what is a brand or a company'sobjectives, what they're trying
to achieve and how they defineloyalty, and then how can we
help them drive the results thatthey need out of their loyalty
program.
And, at the end of the day, forus, a loyalty program is
(03:00):
actually a financial vehicle.
It needs to have a positive ROI.
You need to be able to sit infront of your CFO and go.
Here's the benefits we aredriving to the business, and so
that's kind of we really leaveit up to our customers to define
loyalty, but for us it's abouthelping them achieve those
business results Great.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, we saw in our most recent State of Customer
Loyalty report that 79% of thebrands we surveyed have an
interest in updating, enhancingor redoing their customer
loyalty offerings.
Do you see any specificindustries leading the charge in
loyalty program innovation and,if so, which ones, and what are
they doing differently?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You know so, across the board, you're seeing
incredible innovations.
differently, you know so acrossthe board, you're seeing
incredible innovations, you knowand so, whether it's around
better segmentation and using AIto drive better communications
and marketing to a member youknow, for airlines and hotels,
it's identifying your topcustomers and putting the right
benefits in front of them, abovejust miles or points, and
(04:02):
making sure that your topcustomers are actually treated
as top customers and recognizedas such.
For more transactionalcustomers, it's very much making
sure that the benefits you putin front of them are relevant
and meaningful.
And then, as we're expanding it, we're seeing more and more
partnerships, and so we'reseeing companies who you don't
think aligned or don't match updoing stuff together because hey
(04:27):
, you both got a currency, I'lllet people redeem my currency at
your location and you do thesame.
And we both grow up high andboth increase our member
engagement across the board.
So we're seeing a lot more ofthat as well.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Awesome, and you mentioned new technology.
Among those things like AI,gamification, zero-party and
first-party data collection.
Which technological innovationsdo you believe will have the
greatest impact on loyaltyprograms in 2025, and why?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
So, look, ai is still in its infancy.
I don't think we're going tosee the real ramifications of
that for a year or so, but youare seeing more and more tools
around.
How do I save and communicateto my base in a more effective
way and how can I give you adifferent message to me in a
(05:26):
cost-effective way that'smeaningful and relevant, without
having a human go through andall the data analytics and stuff
?
You know the other thing, whatwe're.
I'm just trying to think whatelse we're seeing that's going
to impact.
This year.
A lot of customers are revampingtheir programs.
There's a cost issue andthere's a you know and can I
measure the benefit, and sowe're seeing a lot of work being
done around.
What is the actual cost benefit?
What are the metrics I need toput in place so that I can get
(05:50):
better funding, make sure itstays top of the mindshare
inside of an organization, andwhat can I do to actually drive
meaningful benefit to themembers in the program at a
lower cost?
And at the end of the day, thisis an expense, so we need to
make sure there is an ROIattached to it.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, that's definitely something that we
continue to hear about from ourmembers as well how to balance
that.
You also kind of touched onsome of the ways in which
customer interaction is changingwith technology, as those
interactions continue to spanboth digital and physical
channels.
How do loyalty programsintegrate both you know
(06:29):
in-person and online experiencesfor a seamless and cohesive
customer journey?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, so you know.
Our mandate around our Pay WithPoints product is to engage a
member at checkout in a way thatthey're being engaged at that
moment in time, and so webelieve it's okay to communicate
with a member on that phoneemail.
However, you do it Prior to anengagement.
Hey, you're walking into a mallhere's an offer, which is fine,
but when you're at checkout andI'm going to give you an offer
(06:55):
it needs to be at the POSterminal so that, whether you're
tapping your card or you'rechecking out online, it'll say,
hey, here is a benefit for you.
Do you want it, and that couldbe.
Do you want to reduce it?
Use your points from a thirdparty as part of that checkout
process, or it could be an offer.
But asking people to go and dosomething go register for this,
(07:18):
go do that doesn't drive thesame results in engagement that
we want to keep it meaningful intime and at the moment of truth
.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
basically Cool, so switching gears a little.
What are some of the commonreasons that loyalty programs
fail to meet their goals, andhow do you think brands can
address these issues?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It also comes back down to industry-specific issues
, a lot of it's legacy systems,and then you've also got
compliance and security andrestrictions around what you can
and cannot do.
The US is a little easier tooperate in than in other
countries, where we have muchstricter data and privacy rules,
but at the end of the day, youneed corporate and C-suite
(08:08):
buy-in on your program andhistorically, I don't think
we've spent enough time onfinancial metrics, financial
objectives and so when peopleare looking at their issues,
some of these require massiveinvestments.
If you're a retailer and youwant to revamp your entire
(08:30):
member engagement strategy,that's a big technology
investment, as well as researchand analytics upfront to make
sure you're getting it right,and so you need to have the
right metrics and goals andobjectives in place.
And then people make them toocomplex.
It's got to be simple.
(08:50):
Think about it as a consumer.
You know social media hastrained people to be engaged for
20 seconds, 30 seconds, so yourcommunications have to fit into
that and the benefits have tobe realized in that 20, 30
seconds.
You can't make stuffcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So you mentioned metrics.
What are the most criticalmetrics brands should be
tracking to measure the successof their loyalty programs in
2025?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know what?
Unfortunately, it's abrand-specific objective.
If you're a high-frequencybrand, your grocery store wants
you to come in right.
Can I increase your frequencyshare of wallet and increase
your basket size?
You know, if I'm a verticallyintegrated, can I get
third-party data.
You know it's SKU level so Ican get other people to pay for
(09:44):
promotions and offers and stufflike that.
If you're a financialinstitution, it's how do I drive
spend on my card retentionengagement?
Make it meaningful and relevantto the member.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But if you're a higher-end, low-frequency brand.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
your loyalty program is completely different.
At that point it's not a pointsprogram anymore, it could be
VIP events and it's a differentkind of strategy altogether, and
so we always look when we talkto our clients.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
it's what are you trying to?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
achieve.
Who's your market, what's yourfrequency, what's the ticket
size?
If you're a low ticket, lowfrequency, you need to partner.
You're not going to get thereon your own and so just find the
right partners that are goingto help you get there.
So it's a very complicatedthere isn't a one size that fits
all, and we're always workingwith our clients on what are
(10:29):
your objectives?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
What's the world you?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
live in.
And then how do we get there ina cost-effective way?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Totally, that makes perfect sense.
Are there any metrics you seethat you think are underutilized
or overlooked when assessingthe success of loyalty programs?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Again, industry specific.
If you're a credit card company, retention is a big one.
So what happens is people lookat me and go, hey, I'd like to
expire my points because there'sa financial value of those
points expiring.
But then I've just lost acustomer and I have to look at
the cost of acquisition for thatcustomer, what it cost me to
(11:09):
get them, what's going to costme to keep them versus the value
of devaluing or recouping thepoints.
For us we think making sure youknow there's that old adage
right Happy customer tell oneperson and unhappy customer tell
ten.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So making sure you've got all the right metrics and
all the right design in place tomake life easy for your members
and go from there so can youtell us what do you think is
working for some of your clientsright now when it comes to
building successful loyaltyprograms or loyalty strategies,
and maybe provide us with anexample or two?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
so completely biased here on this one, but um, um our
clients, our credit cardcompany loyalty programs and
their retail partners that haveintegrated pay with points have
had um the biggest impact I'veever seen on any loyalty
programs out of everything I'vedone in the last 35 years.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And it's everything from.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
We are seeing a significant increase in spend on
cards, we're seeing apercentage of inactive cards
becoming active, so coming tofront of the wallet and we're
seeing the cost per point maystay the same, but the
(12:28):
administrative costs of managingthat come way down.
So you have operational costsavings as well, and then the
companies they partner with, whoaccept the points, are seeing
an increase in sales, they'reseeing an increase in basket
size at a lower cost and themember engagement scores go up
through the roof.
And so it's the one thing we'veactually done where we see all
(12:51):
three parties involved love it,utilize it, and I always tell
people we get complaints when wego down for maintenance.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And so that tells us it's working.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So you know we're a firm believer that if you're a
brand and you're running yourown loyalty program, accepting a
credit card's loyalty points isaccretive to your program.
It brings in new customers, itdoesn't interfere with yours and
it actually enhances it as well.
And it's a great marketing toolFor the bank clients.
(13:21):
Their members are happier andthey're spending more and their
attention is up, so it's awin-win.
So you know biased on that one,but very much seeing the best
results we've ever seen out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
That's amazing.
That's a great example.
So, on a more personal level,are there programs that you
admire or that you're loyal toas a customer, and what do you
like about their offerings?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Sure, so I'm Canadian , so Air Canada has done a
really good job.
And look, we live on planes andso what they do and it's less
even about this is about status,not about miles, and it's the
ability to look, we changeflights on a constant basis, so
their concierge service isunbelievable, and so the value
(14:09):
prop of that concierge servicedrives me to make sure I keep my
status more than anything, andso you know we have that and I
think they do an incredibly goodjob of their member engagement
and their offers and the valueproposition behind their status.
The second one I use most isMarriott, which is becoming more
(14:37):
challenging.
It upgrades a few, but it'sstill early checkouts late
checkout are key for us.
Early checkouts, late checkoutare key for us and other than
that, I'm a terrible consumer.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I do the stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I like and loyal to the brands, but I'm not a good
consumer.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, I mean, it sounds like Air Canada is
keeping your loyalty, so they'redoing something right.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, they're doing a good job.
I have to give them credit.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Amazing your loyalty.
So they're doing somethingright.
Yeah, yeah, they're doing agood job.
I have to give them credit.
Yeah, amazing.
So I'm thinking about you know,consumers in general.
How do you think that consumerexpectations are going to
continue to evolve in 2025 andhow should forward thinking
brands start preparing to meetthem?
Yeah, you know, if you thinkabout um.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
How are we using?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
our devices.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I'm old, but my friends are already no longer
taking credit cards out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I was in Australia a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
We have clients out there.
I think about 80% of theirtransactions are now mobile.
So you know the technologyexists today.
We know where you are, we knowwhat you're doing.
As long as you've opted in, letme put something irrelevant and
meaningful in front of you atthe right moment.
And it's not a spam and I'vegot to be careful about it.
(15:59):
But if you're walking in a mallI can go.
Hey, ethan, by the way, if yougo to the store and spend $100,
there's $20 back, right, and youhave that.
And then you know, because thatcapability exists and now you
overlay that.
With you know the thebeginnings of ai, you'll be able
to start putting relevantoffers in front of people at the
(16:20):
right moment at the right timeabsolutely so.
We're starting to see brandstesting and working on that and
and I think it will become muchmore mainstream in the next
couple of years.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I've heard so much aboutsimilar things lately.
I think that's definitely onthe horizon, so do you have any
closing advice or thoughts thatyou'd like to share with our
audience?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, you know.
Look, you've got to try stuffnow.
Technology is allowing us to dosmall segment testing and see
what works, because everybody'sconsumers are different, right,
and the world's changing sorapidly that you know we have
the ability.
Today, we know our clients onour platform can create a
(17:05):
segment in real time put anoffer out in real time and see
how it goes, and so we're justencouraging people to try.
It's an interesting thing,because when we do research and
you ask people what they want,they'll say cash, Whether it's
an employee recognition program,whether it's a cash rebate on a
credit card.
Yet we get better results andbetter impact for non-cash.
(17:28):
So data and research doesn'talways give you the right answer
, and so we have this capabilityto test and learn, and so we
just encourage it as much as youcan and don't be afraid, and
some things will work and somethings won't, and you learn
along the way.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
I mean as a marketer, that'skind of at the root of what we
do every day.
I agree more.
I mean as a marketer, that'skind of, you know, at the root
of what we do every day.
So what's next for EngagePeople this year as we move
forward?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know we're launching some exciting new
clients, exciting new partnerson our retail and our payment
points network, and so that'sour big focus for the rest of
the year.
You know we have some clientson our platform launching as
well, so that's also exciting,but our main focus is expanding
(18:15):
that network and, as we're goingthrough between now and the
beginning of the holiday season,we'll have some big
announcements and your partnerswho are participating are really
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Amazing, can't wait to see it.
So that actually brings us toour famous quickfire section,
where we try to keep the answersto one word or a short phrase,
so we'll just kind of fire theseoff.
How would you describe yourwork life?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Like a pendulum, exciting and scary, going back
and forth every five minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So if you have a day or a week off from work, what
are you doing?
Family exercise friends usualstuff, nothing.
If you could live in any cityor country, where would you live
?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I live in Toronto, man, where else would you want
to live?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
If you could go back to school, what would you study?
Probably go back, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Toss up between aeronautical engineering and law
, and they're completelydifferent, but they were just
things I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
What facet of your job would you like to know more
about?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
The CEO of my company .
I better know it at this point,right, but look, we're always
learning, right.
I've got a great team.
I learn from all the time.
So I don't think there's asingle facet, it's just a
constant learning.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
What facet of your job would you like to know less
about?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Same thing Info security.
I know way too much and it's soimportant for everything we do.
And we spend so much time onthis.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, you know what I ?
It's weird, yeah.
So what motivates you whentackling challenges that engage
people?
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
we are the company that gets stuff done, and I like
that.
I like the fact that we have anunbelievable team.
Often I'll say I'd wantsomething I can't be done.
I'm like, all right, we we'lltalk to you on Monday and
they'll have a solution for me,and so it's always that.
It's like the.
It's the ability to you know wetake these challenges, we see
what our customers are lookingfor and we create something out
(20:20):
of nothing, and it's donebecause we have this incredible
team of people who are just offthe charts smart and they can
figure stuff out, so that's themost fun we have during a day.
Great.
What do you draw inspirationfrom?
What lights your fire?
You know it's about legacy.
(20:42):
So if we're successful with ourPay With Points network in a
couple of years, everyone'sgoing to be using their points
everywhere and there are only acouple of companies doing it and
our team's going to be able tolook back and go hey, we helped
build that, which is somethingcool that you know don't often
get to do and stay in a career.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
What is your favorite sport or hobby?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You know it was tennis, probably Santa cycling,
soccer, whatever anything whereyou're out with people and it's
enjoyable, right.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What do you typically think about at the end of the
day.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
All the stuff I didn't get done during the day.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Well, thank you, jonathan.
Thanks for taking the time tospeak with us today on the
Leaders in Customer LoyaltyIndustry Voices podcast.
It was great getting yourperspective on customer loyalty
and we look forward to learningmore from you and the team and
engage people throughout therest of this year.
I want to thank everyone fortuning in to our leaders and
customer loyalty podcast series.
(21:39):
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to the podcast.
Follow loyalty 360 on YouTubeand LinkedIn.
Please remember to come backevery Tuesday for another
edition of our Industry Voicesseries.
If you have questions, don'thesitate to reach out.
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