In an industry where innovation is often measured by specs and screen size, Echelon is taking a different approach—one rooted in accessibility, adaptability, and authentic member connection. As the fitness technology brand expands its AI capabilities and scales its omnichannel footprint, it remains firmly committed to one mission: supporting people on their fitness journey, whatever that may look like.
For John Santo, Co-Founder and Chief Product & Technology Officer, customer loyalty at Echelon isn’t a KPI—it’s a relationship. One that’s nurtured through thoughtful product design, personalized engagement, and an ecosystem that truly follows members wherever they go.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to our Leaders in Customer Loyalty
podcast.
Today is Thursday, so it'sBrand Stories.
It's great to have you with usevery Thursday as we dive into
how leading brands aredeveloping unique and
personalized experiences todeepen customer loyalty.
Health and wellness haveemerged as top priority for
today's consumers, but thedefinition has evolved.
(00:24):
Top priority for today'sconsumers, but the definition
has evolved.
No longer centered on annualgym signups or insipid routines.
Modern wellness emphasizessustainability, personalization
and technology-driven lifestylechange.
Building healthy habits remainschallenging, yet there's a
clear parallel between customerloyalty programs and fitness.
(00:44):
Both rely on the powerfulQ-habit reward loop to drive
lasting engagement andbehavioral change.
Echelon is flipping thetraditional model on its head.
By harnessing data, ai-drivenpersonalization and a powerful
collaboration with Amazon WebServices, echelon delivers
(01:06):
immersive fitness experiencestailored to each user's goal.
The brand's mission is simplehelp people become the best
version of themselves throughtechnology, personalization and
progress that drives realresults which can lead to that
long-term habit formation.
In this episode, we're going tobe joined by John Santo,
co-founder and chief product andtechnology officer at Echelon.
(01:29):
He's going to discuss howinnovative approaches drive
connection, consistency andlong-term loyalty in the fitness
space.
John, welcome to the Leaders inCustomer Loyalty podcast.
How are you today?
I'm good.
How are you guys?
Doing Good, doing well.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to join us.
First off, for those who maynot be familiar, can you give us
(01:49):
a short introduction to Echelon?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, of course.
I mean Echelon really is.
We like to say we're a pioneer,right.
We offer premium fitnessequipment that's tech enabled we
are.
We have over a million plususers.
You know there's about anaverage 2.6 or about three
people per household.
Very strong engagement from ourcustomers.
(02:13):
We have like over a millionclasses taken each month and we
are in about 5,000 commerciallocations and 12,000, over
12,000 retail doors.
So we really built sort of acomprehensive fitness ecosystem
that really connects usersacross home and commercial
fitness.
And we really try to do thatthrough value-based hardware.
(02:36):
And I say value-based hardwareand technology is that we're not
super high priced but we'reaffordable for most Americans
that want to get into a fitnessjourney.
And you know we provide all thetechnological experience with
that that goes with that,including AI.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That's awesome.
You know what's led to thesuccess of Echelon.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean really for us.
I really say that our successwas really based off of it's
sort of three principles.
It's accessibility,approachability and
affordability, right.
Those are the three principlesthat we sort of abided by when
we started Echelon.
And I think, from anaccessibility standpoint, right,
that leads to the technology.
(03:17):
Our content, the fitness isaccessible anywhere that there's
an internet connection, whichis pretty much anywhere in the
United States or almost anywherein the world.
Now, especially with Starlink,you can get it anywhere.
So we're accessible.
But not only that.
We've provided affordableequipment to retailers that can
then be sold to customers andthey can take it home right away
, right, and so that's a reallygood.
(03:39):
And it's approachable not justin the sense of look, we're in
Walmart, right.
Sam's Club, we're in retailersthat people are accustomed to
going to.
Our instructors are, I don'twant to say real people, because
everybody's a real person, butthey're sort of real in the
sense that we're not all about.
You just have to have a sixpack abs, right, where your
personal fitness journey is.
(03:59):
That's where you are.
You may just want to be able topick up your grandchild.
You may want to be able to justplay a basketball game with
your daughter or son right andnot be out of breath.
That might be your fitness goaland that's okay, and so we're
approachable in that sense andthat's how our community sort of
builds on each other andsupports each other.
And we talked aboutaffordability, where we have
(04:21):
products that go from $500 allthe way up to commercial
equipment can be $5,000.
But still, even at a $5,000commercial price for a
commercial facility, ourcompetitors are selling pieces
of equipment for 20 grand.
So we're still a veryaffordable product that adds
high value.
And we're very passionate aboutour customer.
(04:44):
And when I say our customer,I'm not just talking about Sam's
Club, I'm not talking about thecommercial facility.
Let's say it's LA Fitness or agym that we're in or a hotel.
I'm talking about the end useras a customer.
What drives them?
What's driving them to thatstore?
What value add needs to be forthat specific customer and that
demographic in that scenario?
(05:04):
Value add needs to be for thatspecific customer and that
demographic in that scenario andI think that's really what's
helped keep our customersengaged for a long time and it
led to a lot of.
Our success is that we've beencustomer focused?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, absolutely, and there's a couple of follow up
questions to that.
First off, as we talk, I'mcoming into this.
I'm a big fitness guy, lovelifting weights full set in my
basement.
What I've noticed, though, isthat you talk about $5,000 to
$20,000.
You look at some of thecompetitors out there maybe
French Fitness or Body Solid.
They're selling at a certainprice.
(05:34):
And then you look at some oflike a Rogue or some of the
other.
Hey man, a little bit nicerproduct, right, but that same
all-in-one cable machine may gofrom $3,500 to $8,500.
And it's basically the samemachine.
And you start to see that youknow there are a lot of them
being contracted in a certainway.
So there's a lot of pricegouging in this industry.
Not you at all, right, but I'msaying I've noticed that, as I
(05:56):
bought equipment over the lastthree, four years and upgraded
it Like, oh, this is the same ontwo different websites and on
two different websites, andthey're completely different
prices.
Is that something you see inthe industry?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
We do, we see it, we definitely see it in the
industry.
I mean, for us, right, we seeit in the industry, but we don't
base our pricing off of whatother people are doing, right,
and so I think for us it's aboutokay.
Obviously we're a company, wehave to make margins because we
have to stay in business toprovide the service and provide
everything we're doing.
But we're not crazy with it andwe try to actually work with
(06:30):
the gyms and the facilities tocome up with products and
pricing that works for them,right.
A lot of times we're buildingproducts with buyers.
They're saying, hey, we need atreadmill at this price and
we're going and going, okay, wecan provide this, this and this,
and we're sort of building ittogether, right, and that's what
true partnership I think isabout.
Um, and what really leads us to.
(06:53):
It kind of almost goes back tothe, to the question what was
our success?
Or kind of where we're at nowis?
We try to find ways to be truepartners with our customers and
I think it allows us to beadaptable in an industry where
things change quickly.
I mean, I don't know if youremember during COVID, everybody
was stuck in the house and homefitness equipment was here,
(07:14):
right, and now we're back to atnormal levels and you have to be
able to really adapt and havethose relationships not only
with your customers at home, butwith your business, to business
customers as well right, youhave to be able to do that, to
move, and I think ouradaptability has really led to
success because we're able toadapt to some trends in the
(07:36):
industry, like hybrid fitnessjourneys, right, people want the
flexibility to sort of work outat home, outside, at the gym,
and so, because of the ecosystemand the technology that we
built, we're allowed to givesomebody sort of a holistic
wellness journey where they cango to the gym, they can come
home, all of their data is onthe same piece of equipment, if
(07:57):
they worked out at the gym ornot, and we're able to provide
the same personalization throughAI with that as well, so that
that journey is with youeverywhere you go, right?
It's really important for us tobe able to offer that for our
customers, and that's a lot ofwhat we're pushing towards.
Now is not just solely beinglocked into our system, but if
(08:18):
you want to run outside, we canstill help you track that.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I think it's important too, because it's the
data that's very important,being able to tell a story,
because I think certain peoplehave different fitness goals.
Right, not everyone likeslifting weights, right, not
everyone likes running.
So getting people engaged increating that behavior, that 30,
60, 90 day behavior where itlocks in, is difficult.
I mean, I've tried runninghundreds of times.
I just don't like it.
(08:41):
Right, I ride the bike in themorning.
Yeah, I have a stationery.
I ride in the morning, readwall street journal, because
it's my, it's a habit, right, I,I read with it.
But lifting weights I lovedoing that, I always have.
But because then you can seekind of that change.
But some people just don't likethat, right, and then, and you
have the ability from atechnology and the data that
(09:02):
really helps them meet theirfitness goals.
And you mentioned too, which Ithink is very interesting, is,
you know, everyone's fitnessgoal is different and not trying
to force something on them.
And it could be just agrandfather who wants to play
with his kid playing basketball,right, so he may do a little
bit of resistance training tohelp his knees or help his back.
So you know, understandingtheir goals and being able to
(09:22):
address them in a day-to-daymanner is very powerful 100 so,
uh, can you tell us a little bitmore about your role with the
company?
uh, you know how you got intothe, the marketing, the
technology, uh, into fitness anduh, were there some roles that
led up to this?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
yeah.
I mean, I've always been anentrepreneur, so I've owned my
own businesses, uh, pretty muchalmost my entire career.
When I got out of school,though, so I went to school for
business.
I got out of school, I was inthe typical sort of business
like sales jobs, right, becausewhen you go to school for
marketing, everybody wants youto do sales, right, that's it,
and it was okay.
My first job was actually I wasin Manhattan, and it was boiler
(10:02):
room man.
It was just a phone and a bunchof business cards on a desk and
you were sellingtelecommunication services, and
I hated it, could not stand it,so I actually I bought myself a
computer and I went around.
I moved back to Orlando, whichis where we're based now Orlando
, florida and I went around andjust designed a bunch of logos
(10:22):
and went to an ad firm and said,hey look, I need a job.
And they were like look, weonly have this $8 an hour
internship that you can.
I was like I'll take it, I justwant to learn the business, and
so, from there, I ended upopening um, I did that for for a
while, um, and then I uh, whenI was done with that, I had a
couple of friends that had ownedsome marketing firms in town.
(10:43):
And I called them.
They said, hey, look, because Ialways hung out with older
people, so you know I sayfriends.
They were probably like 15years older than I was at the
time, and so I called them upand said, yeah, I always felt
like I could learn from them.
Right, they've been around theblock a little bit.
So I called him up and LouLantani, who's our CEO right now
(11:09):
and the the one of the foundersof of Echelon and he said, look
, and Lou at the time had acompany called Viatech Consumer
Products and they built and madeproducts.
And he said, hey, he's hiring.
So I went to the house and wehit it off.
He hired me the same day and soI ended up running their entire
building, all of of their,their tech, running their
marketing department for thatcompany for quite a long time
(11:31):
and then branched out, startedmy own company.
And, lo and behold, one dayLou's doctor told him hey, man,
you're just in bad shape, youneed to start doing something.
And you know they were sellinga fitness bike on qbc at the
time called the flex bike yeahand he said, hey, how can we
make this better?
and so he and I were talking andhe said, hey, look, maybe,
(11:52):
maybe we should do an app.
He's like you do apps, maybe wecould.
And so we started developing anapp for it and, lo and behold,
echelon was born.
So out out of that, that'swhere Echelon came about, and
it's really been like a rocketship journey from there.
And then we took on someprivate equity.
They bought my company, broughtme in as a co-founder and one
(12:14):
of the partners in the business,but my side of the business is
the tech and the product side,which is the app, and so that's
kind of really how that started.
But we really started which iscrazy from like an extreme
programming methodology.
I mean, we would just build andpush it out, get customer
feedback quickly and pushanother, build out and fix the
problems, and that's kind of howwe rolled everything out until
(12:36):
we became sort of an agileorganization after some time.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, excellent, when you look at some of the
challenges or opportunities yousee within the market.
Obviously, kind of some of theeconomic uncertainty now,
tariffs, no tariffs, taxes, notaxes.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You know what keeps you up at night when you look at
some of the challenges andopportunities that you have in
front of you going to deal withthat side of the business a
little more than me, but to me Idon't worry about things like
that, because you can alwaysmake a shift in business right.
Those are sort of simple shifts,and I think tariffs will be a
(13:14):
will it be a short-livedsolution to an end goal and I
don't know that there'll beforever.
What keeps me up at night isreally trying to stay ahead of
the technology but sort ofmaintaining like a genuine
connection with our member right.
So, with all of thistechnological innovation right,
with trying to get a balancebetween the innovation, with
(13:37):
trying to get a balance betweenthe innovation, leveraging AI,
create personalized experiences,how do we stay human in all of
that right?
How do we keep that connectionwith our customer where it
doesn't just seemtransaction-based right?
And so I think one of thethings for us is what we've
really tried to do and design inour entire tech stack is really
(13:58):
keep the instructor and thatsort of human element of the
training as part of that and tryto use the technology to create
the bond between the instructorand the customer even further,
because we just don't want tolose that human element and that
community sense of it.
You know, any time we lose amember, if we do, and it's very,
(14:19):
very few I'm going to say youknow, one of the biggest things
they miss is the community.
It's that human connection.
That's what people miss all thetime and that's one of the
things that I really want to tryto stay true to, even with all
of this technology that's aroundus and all the advancements
that we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And you mentioned staying ahead of technology.
That's a pretty significantchallenge for most people in
customer loyalty, customerexperience, right.
We have a growing brandcommunity, we meet, talk about
different challenges andopportunities, but you know,
understanding this technologydoesn't work together, does not
work together.
It was promised to do this.
It does Y versus X, so it canbe a big challenge.
So you know, how do you keepahead in the technology space
from a customer experienceperspective, but also from a?
(15:00):
You know, an offering to thecustomers that are going to keep
them engaged because everythingis changing right.
You have, you know, the OL1 orOLP inhibitors, right.
The olxin pigs and others thatare promising health, but still
holistically America is stillnot healthy right, and you
obviously are offering a, are anauthor of a great technology
that can create very uniqueengagement.
So how do you keep up with bothsides of that technology curve?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I think, right, it's almost a flip right.
I think staying ahead of thetechnology curves means staying
in front of and on top of whatyour customers actually want.
As far as that goes, right, Idon't necessarily have to have,
let's say, you know, tesla hasthese robots now that can do
these crazy things right, Idon't necessarily have to have
(15:44):
the craziest latest technology.
I have to have what's best formy customer and to me, I think
that's what's staying ahead ofthe technology curve is keeping
that human element.
And how does that human elementapply to what I implement
within my tech stack or in myproduct?
Right, the customer needs todrive.
What I'm putting out there andI think that's a really
(16:05):
important thing is not to putthe tech first, but put your
customer first and let theirneeds and what they need as far
as you know what's keepingretention and engagement let
that lead what you implementtech-wise.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Absolutely so.
When you look at customerloyalty, that's another very
important topic, obviously,since we're the trade
association for it.
When you look at customerloyalty, what does it mean to
you and to Echelon?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Oh, that's a good question, and I think for me,
it's just what I said before.
How do I follow amember-centered approach, right?
So, rather than chasing everynew technology trend, like we
were saying before, it reallymeans focusing on what is my
(16:56):
customer need?
What do they really want?
Right?
How do I keep members engagedon their fitness journey over a
long period of time?
It's not just about, right, oh,they got 100 rides.
Here you go.
Here's a coupon code.
What's actually going to bemeaningful for them over the
long journey of their fitnesscareer?
(17:17):
Because it is a career, right?
If it's a lifetime thing thatyou're doing as far as fitness
goes, you're going to come inand start as a beginner.
You're going to be anintermediate.
You may fall back a little bit.
You're going to have days whereyou don't want to do it.
How does everything that I'mproviding to a customer help
them achieve their ultimate goaland stay with it for life?
(17:37):
That's really the question youhave to ask, and it's going to
be very different for everysingle business, right?
Because your customer isdifferent.
They come to your brand fordifferent things, and so I think
true loyalty really comes whenmembers actually achieve their
goals, and it seems effortless,and they do it in a way when I
(18:01):
say effortless, I mean they'redoing it in a way that's really
genuine, where they feel thateverything I add, every app
update, every new technologyimprovement is helping support
what they're doing and trying tohelp them reach their goal.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Absolutely.
And how does the echelon rewardzone fit into your vision for
customer loyalty within theorganization?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, I mean it's really designed to help
celebrate members and theirengagement, right.
So really to go beyond rewardsand badges, right, we want to
acknowledge members and thethings that they're doing and
the things that they're doing.
But when we're talking about afitness journey and consistent
progress, milestone achievementsand community participation, it
(18:47):
should really feel sort ofmutual right and members are
investing their time and energywith us.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And so that loyalty program has to provide
additional value, not justrecognition, right?
Loyalty program is not justabout badges.
But what additional value?
Through a loyalty we want toconnect them to that brand,
(19:18):
right?
We don't want to just say, oh,here's a list of everything that
you, that you can get in yourreward program.
Let's say, maybe it's a trulypersonalized sort of connection
based on their efforts, based ontheir goals and based on what
they're trying to do.
So to me, that that's what Ithink true loyalty and true sort
of like a reward zone for acustomer could look like.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Okay, you talked about personalization, another
very relevant topic within thecustomer loyalty industry right
now, making sure that it'srelevant, make sure it's timely,
right channel, right place,right product.
So you've touched on a numberof those things.
The data you have obviously isvery important, is very
(19:59):
important.
You know what doespersonalization mean to Echelon
and how do that?
The personalized workouts thatyou offer kind of drive some of
that personalization strategy?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, I mean.
So basically we're talkingabout customers now, right.
So we really want to try totruly understand what their goal
is and really what their uniquejourney is.
It's not just aboutrecommending content on, like
past paper oh, let's say, youtook a bunch of country music
(20:26):
classes or you take 20 minuterunning classes, power classes,
every day.
It's not just aboutrecommending that class because
you've taken those before andyou're most likely to take them.
It's not just aboutrecommending that class because
you've taken those before andyou're most likely to take them.
It's really about understandingeach member's goals and
preferences and theircapabilities, right, so that you
(20:49):
deliver an experience thatevolves with them.
So we really want to go beyondthe surface level to create an
experience that really feelstailored to that customer.
It could include adaptingworkout intensity, progression
rates, mixing differentmodalities.
So if you have multiple piecesof equipment, maybe now there's
a circuit training that you getrecognized, right.
(21:11):
10 minutes on a treadmill, 10minutes on a bike, you know
another 10 minutes here.
Now you did 30 minutes ofcardio, but it seemed fast,
moving and it's entertaining,because that's what we know
you're like and that's the rightmix that's best for each member
.
I think you know how our systemworks.
What we do is we sort of gothrough a questionnaire, sort of
(21:32):
an onboarding, so we can sortof get a baseline need of where
the customer is like, what theirgoals are, how they like to
work out, and then we basicallyanalyze that.
We go back to the current datathat we have in the system and
measure it against that data sothat we can give a good
recommendation, and then wecontinuously refine it, right.
So we look at what they'redoing, we look at what their
(21:52):
goals are and we even use likecontextual factors, right, like
available time that they canwork out, equipment access,
whether they're working out athome or in a gym, right.
So these are the things we tryto play with so that we can
really hone in on what themember actually wants and that
it seems like it's truepersonalization.
(22:13):
And there's a couple things thatI think differentiate us from
what's currently out there.
I think the widespreadecosystem that we have right is
something that we do.
We don't focus on a singlepiece of equipment.
So, uh, if you're a commercialfacility, we have an app that a
(22:34):
user can go into, put in theirgoals and based on the equipment
in that facility, whether it'sEchelon equipment or not, it
will recommend a workout for youin that gym and you will move
through that facility and do aworkout.
The data will save and then goback to our backend and then
when you go back home, right,we'll take that information and
then maybe recommend a treadmillworkout if you're working out
at home that day.
(23:01):
So it's really a unique sort ofecosystem to do that.
So there's cross-environmentalintegration as well.
And then, like I mentionedbefore, we really have
instructor-informed AI.
So our instructors actuallybuild out plans and they're
looking at prompts and we'reworking with them every day to
sort of update this and changethis based on the recommendation
.
Is this a good program, is thisnot?
And so there's really still thehuman element behind it that's
driving and helping the enginelearn and continue to make
(23:22):
adjustments based off customerneeds and goals.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Okay, and you recently announced a partnership
with AWS, amazon Web Services,to launch a generative AI power
fitness platform that deliverspersonalized workouts,
personalized experiences.
What motivated Echelon topartner with AWS and what are
you seeing so far?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Well, I mean, look, I think we've had an amazing
partnership with AWS from thebeginning.
We've been cloud-based sinceday one.
They have been an amazingpartner and through our
relationship with them, we'veI've spoken to them a number of
times.
We've talked about our goalsand what we want to do and how
(24:05):
we can do it together.
Right, because, you know, ifyou've noticed, here sort of the
theme is like how Echelon isdoing things together with other
companies in order to make thebiggest impact in the industry.
It's not just about, hey, we'rejust doing this in a bubble and
pushing this out there.
Right, how do we work with thebest and brightest in pushing
this out there?
Right, how do we work with thebest and brightest?
(24:27):
You know, how do we useAmazon's bedrock, which is, you
know, api driven based models.
So now we can take this, thesemodels, and even place them in
other people's apps.
So if people want to use our AItechnology, we can help build
it within their app and use thetechnology and the models that
we built for them to use thesame technology.
So it's how do we grow and howdo technology and the models
that we've built for them to usethe same technology?
(24:48):
So it's how do we grow and howdo we make the biggest impact in
the industry, and with apartner like AWS, that's
possible.
Some of the rates just to throwsome numbers out here we're
seeing 86% workout plancompletion with personalized
plans as opposed to 78% juststandalone workouts.
That's a pretty big increasewhen you're talking about
(25:09):
millions of workouts.
That's a lot.
From the research we've donewith Amazon and what we're
seeing, it looks like about a 7%improvement in retention rates,
which is amazing Engagementwith our.
So we have a virtual world thatwe've created.
It's called Echelon Worlds.
It's a 3D avatar and you can gothrough and create your own
(25:30):
avatar and you ride through 3Dworlds.
There's even instructor-ledones where you can compete
against instructors on it.
Anyway, for those workoutswe're seeing on Treadmills 23%
long standard programming.
So members that are receivingpersonalized recommendations 34%
(25:51):
more likely to try new workoutmodalities.
So right, if they're in greatexperience on a treadmill,
they're more likely to go andbuy a bike, and so partnering
with a company like AWS reallyallowed us to move quickly,
because Amazon Bedrock is anamazing tool for personalized
plans and, being that it's APIdriven, allows us a lot of
(26:11):
flexibility, so it just seemedlike a no brainer for us to do
that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, what's the next big thing for customer loyalty,
customer experience?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Let me add something real quick too.
Let me add something real quicktoo.
I think one of the great things, too, about Amazon and what led
us to that, is really it'sallowed us to balance capability
and cost.
Ok, right, the way we'vedesigned this and how we can
(26:47):
implement this tool and I don'twant to give away too much but
it's really been super costeffective to allow us to
maximize the ROI on it.
So we have high capable AImodels at a very low cost and a
lot of it's per usage, so ifyou're not using it, you don't
pay for it, and so it's a reallygreat way for companies to
implement AI models.
Even, like I said before, if wecan apply this into another
company's application, the costis still low for the both of us
to run this, and so it's reallya great way to sort of change
(27:09):
the industry and allow thistechnology to be used in mass.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Okay, excellent.
Yeah, it sounds like thepartnership is symbiotic for
both brands.
So that's good to hear, becausethat can be a big challenge for
brands making sure and it'smore of a technology partnership
(27:34):
when you get into thebrand-to-brand partnerships that
can be a big challenge for manybrands today to making sure
that the value proposition isaligned for both brands.
So what's the next big thingfor customer?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
loyalty, customer experience for Echelon.
The next big thing, I think thenext big thing for us is really
seeing where the AI technologytakes us.
I think, when you're looking atdeveloping technology, how far
(28:06):
can we go with real-timecoaching capabilities and really
giving users that feedback toreally help drive them through
AI and through moving beyondprogrammatic recommendations to
almost provide in-the-momentrecommendations of intensity and
technique?
I think that's a really bigthing that we want.
(28:30):
We really want to help userssort of hit their best and
that's up to them to decide, butthey can put that in the system
and then the system will guidethem.
Also sort of creating, I think,a stronger integration between
consumer and commercialapplications.
Yeah, like we were talkingabout sort of that hybrid model.
(28:52):
But how do we right fitness thatfollows you really is what we
want to do.
So no matter where you are,this same ecosystem is following
you.
That's why I was talking alittle bit earlier about the
APIs.
We can implement this intoother tech stacks and we're
really trying to be more of sortof a SaaS organization system
as opposed to just products.
(29:12):
And the third part of that, Ithink, is really creating sort
of immersive experiences, andwhen I mean immersive
experiences.
It doesn't just respond toperformance metrics, but how you
feel.
Treadmills that adjust,treadmills that have different
feels, maybe ones that can mimicthe road when you're running
outside on the road.
A lot of what we see withcustomers today are, you know, a
(29:36):
lot of people in the Northeastor the Northwest, right it gets
cold, so they're inside duringthe winter months and then
outside they're running.
What if you could give themsomething that could get that
same experience all year round?
And I think that's somethingthat's really important for us
and sort of what I see, the nextcouple of big things, of what
we'll sort of focus on as acompany.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned that
too.
I have two daughters who aredifferent athletes right now.
One is on her way but one wasnot eating enough.
Literally just last Saturday wehad to go through see a
nutritionist right, look atrecovery.
She has a pretty good jobrecovery, but not eating enough
was it was a big piece for herand they did some imaging with
uh ultrasound to look at her,her, her on her thighs or quads
(30:15):
and her energy capacity in her.
Both of her quads was very,very low and it's interesting.
I think there's such a big piecearound uh health and wellness
and fitness on recovery wheremany people don't get into that
Right.
So, knowing where your body is,you know, having applications
like a whoop or something, or ifyou have these as well, that
show, oh, maybe you shouldn'twork out today.
(30:36):
Maybe you take the day offRight, maybe your knees are
bothering you because people,that's where people get overuse.
Injuries are something I'mfamiliar with right now and I
think people who start off infitness, who may be a little
obese or out of shape, try topush it too hard.
Sometimes they get hurt andthey're like all right, I'm done
with this.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So I'm glad you mentioned that, because a couple
of things there.
So we, um, we are, we acquireda company, um, a cold plunge
company, so we're implementingrecovery into our platform now.
So that's going to be part ofthe training now.
And one of the pieces youmentioned which I really like,
(31:12):
because I mentioned earlierabout a holistic sort of health
journey, and holistic is thatright, I need recovery.
I'm not sleeping, so we'retaking information from
wearables that's going to applyto your workout.
Maybe, if you didn't sleep, wejust change it.
Hey, don't do this 45-minuteclass today.
Why don't you do this guidedmeditation?
Let's do this, we'll get youmoving, but let's change this.
(31:37):
I think it's a really importantpiece and the way we've
implemented our.
We have a chatbot, an AIechelon trainer within our AI
program, and so, let's say, Iwork out shoulders and, man, my
shoulder is hurting.
I did something wrong.
I pinched it, right, I was toowide on a bench press and it was
too heavy and I pinched it, andso I need to give a couple of
days rest.
I can actually go in there andsay, hey, look, my shoulder
(31:58):
hurts today.
Can you adjust all upper bodyworkouts and get rid of any arm
movements and the system willthen change it and take it out
for you.
So that is a really importantpiece to this and really I think
adds to sort of customerloyalty and the personalization
journey, because I think thosetwo go hand in hand right.
When customers feel like youcare about them, they're going
(32:19):
to be more loyal.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
No, I think it's a great.
The recovery is a big piece.
Uh, and also for those whodon't know, if they're lifting
weights right, Like my wife uhwas a swam in Kentucky, uh,
solid athlete, but she doesn'tlike lifting Right.
But she's realizing that, uh,doing cardio running, it's not
going to change your body whenyou get a certain age, right,
you have to lift.
Resistance training, you have todo it and you have to do a lot
of it.
You can keep your muscle, butif you don't lose your muscle
(32:44):
right, it impacts the blood flowaround your bones so your bones
get brittle.
It increases your uh, you knowyour what's that?
Metabolic rate, your stablemeta basal rate.
It impacts so many things froma fitness perspective that
people.
But then if they don't know howto lift right, if they're
lifting getting hurt, they'relike, oh, like for me, like
lifting my whole life like uh,do it, like, ah, do it like this
.
I show them time and then youcome back down their form's
(33:05):
wrong.
No, you got to do it this way,right, or you're going to get
hurt.
I think so many people get hurtthat I hear from and they're
like, oh, I'm just done, but therecovery piece is a big piece
of that right and that's anamazing.
Like all right, I haven't done105 in a while I'm going to do
(33:25):
this right.
I got them up three times.
I got a second-degree tear, asprain, in my elbow, and it took
like three, four months to healand now I wear double wraps all
the time.
But it's still things that mostpeople don't know right,
Because your joints take such apounding 100% Running or biking,
whatever you got to giveyourself that recovery time.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Well, and as you get older, your joints can only take
so much more.
So you know you're 25, you wantto bench press 225, 300 pounds
go right ahead.
But if you took a break fromlifting for a while and you
haven't done it, and now you're38, you're 40 years old, you
can't go right back and do that.
You have to.
You can ease up to it and getthere again.
(34:04):
You just have to ease up andtake the ego out of it and work
your way back up.
And I think that's an importantpart of this piece too is
getting people at their rightlevel at the right time and
helping them work up to wherethey need to work up to.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And then that recovery piece and nutrition is
super important, yeah, and whenthey start seeing games, people
get involved.
But I think the ego is a bigthing, right, especially, you
know, again, I'm prettyconsistent the whole time, but
it's my first two with theschool kicked into a whole
nother level again, but overChristmas, like I can do that
way.
But you know, and now just youstart reading, and the older you
get this, the elasticity in allyour joints, with people have
(34:42):
shoulders, right, it's the joint, it's the tendons, it's the
ligaments that have the issue.
So, uh, but no, it's cool.
This has been a been a greatdiscussion.
Oh, last question yeah, um,what are two or three things
you're most proud of?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
uh, you know about your program most proud of all,
right, so I I think one of thebig things is really that we've
been able to sort of democratizefitness and provide a really
high value product and premiumexperiences at excellent price
points to a large amount ofpeople.
Because for me, it's not justabout this.
(35:16):
I don't obviously I wantEchelon to be successful, but
the mission right, I want peopleto be healthy.
It stinks when you're nothealthy and you don't feel good.
Right, you can't do things withyour children, you can't do
certain things, or, you know,maybe you're more irritable,
right, your kids ask you forsomething like oh, I got to get
(35:37):
up again, but if you feel good,it doesn't matter.
And so that's really themission here is to really make
people feel better.
It's not about getting abs,it's not about the.
It's about feeling better andto do the everyday thing, things
that you want.
Think, secondly, like ourbalance between and the approach
of uh technology integration.
(35:58):
Right, yeah, we did leverage aiand machine learning to enhance
, but we didn't lose that humanelement of it.
It still feels human, the wayyou've implemented it feels fun,
and I think it really it's.
It's important to continue tokeep the instructor element in
that, in that human element whenyou're providing technology
(36:20):
solutions.
Finally, I think, right, we'rereally having an impact on our
members' lives.
I mean ultimately.
I mean, if you look at, I meanI've got tons of members.
I got members that send meChristmas cards and stuff just
because they're you know theywere.
There is a member that was 400pounds and now is 180 pounds,
(36:42):
and they attribute that it'sbecause of Echelon and the
instructors as to why they wereable to stay with the program
and consistent.
Now they didn't lose it in 30days.
It wasn't like a 90 day, butthey stuck with it and it
provided meaningful results tothem.
And I think that's ultimatelywhat this is really all about.
Right, it's about people livinga healthier, more active life,
(37:05):
and that doesn't mean they'reDavid Goggins-ing it every day.
They're not running 25 miles aday.
It's where they are at thatpoint in their life and what
more active means to them,specifically for them in their
life?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
No, you're 100% right .
So, no, this has been a great,great, great interview.
I talk fitness all day.
It's a big piece of mine,especially with what I've been
doing the last month on thenutrition side, but well, that's
great.
So now we have our wonderfulquick fire questions.
We like to keep the responsesto a word or two or a short
phrase.
(37:41):
So the first one what is yourfavorite word?
Discipline?
Okay, what?
What's your least favorite word?
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It's actually two words, but it's.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
What excites you?
Everything we've been talkingabout here building something
that really somebody is actuallyusing, that actually makes a
change, right there's.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
There's something that's a long lasting result
that impacts multiple people inan industry.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Absolutely.
And what do you find tiresomeRehashing old things?
I just like to move forward.
Just, we are where we are.
Let's move forward, right.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Absolutely.
Is there a book that you haveread, or read periodically, that
you'd like to recommend tocolleagues?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, so there's two Right.
So if you're talking business,I like the book Hooked.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
That book is really good, but personally I like
Anthem by A A Rand.
It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Okay, I have not read either of them.
I'm an avid reader, but I'llhave to check out the Hook.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, they're good, they're great.
Hooked is really great, likehow to keep people in a product
and psychological behavior andhow to build great products for
people that they really enjoy.
Yeah.
Anthem by Anne Rand is anothergood one.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's a good book.
I'm not an Anne Rand fan.
It's kind of hard for me tofollow, but I love it.
I'm not either.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
It's one of her shorter books.
Okay, it's about this thick asopposed to this thick.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah.
So it it's a pretty quick readand I thought it was
entertaining, okay, only oneI've read by her Okay, what
profession, other than the oneyou currently are in, would you
maybe like to attempt?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
F1 driver.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
There you go.
Okay, what do you enjoy doingthat you often don't get the
time to do?
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Paint.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Paint is in a house or paint is in a portrait?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, paint is in artwork paintings who, okay,
paint as in a house or paint asin a portrait.
No, paint as in, like artworkpaintings who inspired you to
become the person you are today.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
My parents.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I have to say what do you typically think about at
the end of the day?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
When I'm tucking my kids in and I'm at my house.
Just how lucky I am.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
That's awesome, and how do you want to be remembered
by your friends and family?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Loyal.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's awesome.
Love that Well, john.
Friends and family loyal that'sawesome.
Love that well, john.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with us today.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and getting to know more
about echelon also about youpersonally.
It was a very solid interview.
Fitness and health are two bigthings that, uh, more and more
people should be focused on.
Again, great interview andthanks for the time yeah, thank
you, I appreciate it, loved it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Uh, feeding me on again.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Happy to do it, we'll talk soon perfect and thank you
everyone for taking the time tojoin us on the Lead to Customer
Loyalty series on the brandstory side.
Make sure you join us everyThursday and until then, have a
wonderful day.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
See you guys.
Welcome back to our Leaders in Customer Loyalty
podcast.
Today is Thursday, so it'sBrand Stories.
It's great to have you with usevery Thursday as we dive into
how leading brands aredeveloping unique and
personalized experiences todeepen customer loyalty.
Health and wellness haveemerged as top priority for
today's consumers, but thedefinition has evolved.
(00:24):
Top priority for today'sconsumers, but the definition
has evolved.
No longer centered on annualgym signups or insipid routines.
Modern wellness emphasizessustainability, personalization
and technology-driven lifestylechange.
Building healthy habits remainschallenging, yet there's a
clear parallel between customerloyalty programs and fitness.
(00:44):
Both rely on the powerfulQ-habit reward loop to drive
lasting engagement andbehavioral change.
Echelon is flipping thetraditional model on its head.
By harnessing data, ai-drivenpersonalization and a powerful
collaboration with Amazon WebServices, echelon delivers
(01:06):
immersive fitness experiencestailored to each user's goal.
The brand's mission is simplehelp people become the best
version of themselves throughtechnology, personalization and
progress that drives realresults which can lead to that
long-term habit formation.
In this episode, we're going tobe joined by John Santo,
co-founder and chief product andtechnology officer at Echelon.
(01:29):
He's going to discuss howinnovative approaches drive
connection, consistency andlong-term loyalty in the fitness
space.
John, welcome to the Leaders inCustomer Loyalty podcast.
How are you today?
I'm good.
How are you guys?
Doing Good, doing well.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to join us.
First off, for those who maynot be familiar, can you give us
(01:49):
a short introduction to Echelon?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, of course.
I mean Echelon really is.
We like to say we're a pioneer,right.
We offer premium fitnessequipment that's tech enabled we
are.
We have over a million plususers.
You know there's about anaverage 2.6 or about three
people per household.
Very strong engagement from ourcustomers.
(02:13):
We have like over a millionclasses taken each month and we
are in about 5,000 commerciallocations and 12,000, over
12,000 retail doors.
So we really built sort of acomprehensive fitness ecosystem
that really connects usersacross home and commercial
fitness.
And we really try to do thatthrough value-based hardware.
(02:36):
And I say value-based hardwareand technology is that we're not
super high priced but we'reaffordable for most Americans
that want to get into a fitnessjourney.
And you know we provide all thetechnological experience with
that that goes with that,including AI.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That's awesome.
You know what's led to thesuccess of Echelon.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean really for us.
I really say that our successwas really based off of it's
sort of three principles.
It's accessibility,approachability and
affordability, right.
Those are the three principlesthat we sort of abided by when
we started Echelon.
And I think, from anaccessibility standpoint, right,
that leads to the technology.
(03:17):
Our content, the fitness isaccessible anywhere that there's
an internet connection, whichis pretty much anywhere in the
United States or almost anywherein the world.
Now, especially with Starlink,you can get it anywhere.
So we're accessible.
But not only that.
We've provided affordableequipment to retailers that can
then be sold to customers andthey can take it home right away
, right, and so that's a reallygood.
(03:39):
And it's approachable not justin the sense of look, we're in
Walmart, right.
Sam's Club, we're in retailersthat people are accustomed to
going to.
Our instructors are, I don'twant to say real people, because
everybody's a real person, butthey're sort of real in the
sense that we're not all about.
You just have to have a sixpack abs, right, where your
personal fitness journey is.
(03:59):
That's where you are.
You may just want to be able topick up your grandchild.
You may want to be able to justplay a basketball game with
your daughter or son right andnot be out of breath.
That might be your fitness goaland that's okay, and so we're
approachable in that sense andthat's how our community sort of
builds on each other andsupports each other.
And we talked aboutaffordability, where we have
(04:21):
products that go from $500 allthe way up to commercial
equipment can be $5,000.
But still, even at a $5,000commercial price for a
commercial facility, ourcompetitors are selling pieces
of equipment for 20 grand.
So we're still a veryaffordable product that adds
high value.
And we're very passionate aboutour customer.
(04:44):
And when I say our customer,I'm not just talking about Sam's
Club, I'm not talking about thecommercial facility.
Let's say it's LA Fitness or agym that we're in or a hotel.
I'm talking about the end useras a customer.
What drives them?
What's driving them to thatstore?
What value add needs to be forthat specific customer and that
demographic in that scenario?
(05:04):
Value add needs to be for thatspecific customer and that
demographic in that scenario andI think that's really what's
helped keep our customersengaged for a long time and it
led to a lot of.
Our success is that we've beencustomer focused?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, absolutely, and there's a couple of follow up
questions to that.
First off, as we talk, I'mcoming into this.
I'm a big fitness guy, lovelifting weights full set in my
basement.
What I've noticed, though, isthat you talk about $5,000 to
$20,000.
You look at some of thecompetitors out there maybe
French Fitness or Body Solid.
They're selling at a certainprice.
(05:34):
And then you look at some oflike a Rogue or some of the
other.
Hey man, a little bit nicerproduct, right, but that same
all-in-one cable machine may gofrom $3,500 to $8,500.
And it's basically the samemachine.
And you start to see that youknow there are a lot of them
being contracted in a certainway.
So there's a lot of pricegouging in this industry.
Not you at all, right, but I'msaying I've noticed that, as I
(05:56):
bought equipment over the lastthree, four years and upgraded
it Like, oh, this is the same ontwo different websites and on
two different websites, andthey're completely different
prices.
Is that something you see inthe industry?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
We do, we see it, we definitely see it in the
industry.
I mean, for us, right, we seeit in the industry, but we don't
base our pricing off of whatother people are doing, right,
and so I think for us it's aboutokay.
Obviously we're a company, wehave to make margins because we
have to stay in business toprovide the service and provide
everything we're doing.
But we're not crazy with it andwe try to actually work with
(06:30):
the gyms and the facilities tocome up with products and
pricing that works for them,right.
A lot of times we're buildingproducts with buyers.
They're saying, hey, we need atreadmill at this price and
we're going and going, okay, wecan provide this, this and this,
and we're sort of building ittogether, right, and that's what
true partnership I think isabout.
Um, and what really leads us to.
(06:53):
It kind of almost goes back tothe, to the question what was
our success?
Or kind of where we're at nowis?
We try to find ways to be truepartners with our customers and
I think it allows us to beadaptable in an industry where
things change quickly.
I mean, I don't know if youremember during COVID, everybody
was stuck in the house and homefitness equipment was here,
(07:14):
right, and now we're back to atnormal levels and you have to be
able to really adapt and havethose relationships not only
with your customers at home, butwith your business, to business
customers as well right, youhave to be able to do that, to
move, and I think ouradaptability has really led to
success because we're able toadapt to some trends in the
(07:36):
industry, like hybrid fitnessjourneys, right, people want the
flexibility to sort of work outat home, outside, at the gym,
and so, because of the ecosystemand the technology that we
built, we're allowed to givesomebody sort of a holistic
wellness journey where they cango to the gym, they can come
home, all of their data is onthe same piece of equipment, if
(07:57):
they worked out at the gym ornot, and we're able to provide
the same personalization throughAI with that as well, so that
that journey is with youeverywhere you go, right?
It's really important for us tobe able to offer that for our
customers, and that's a lot ofwhat we're pushing towards.
Now is not just solely beinglocked into our system, but if
(08:18):
you want to run outside, we canstill help you track that.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I think it's important too, because it's the
data that's very important,being able to tell a story,
because I think certain peoplehave different fitness goals.
Right, not everyone likeslifting weights, right, not
everyone likes running.
So getting people engaged increating that behavior, that 30,
60, 90 day behavior where itlocks in, is difficult.
I mean, I've tried runninghundreds of times.
I just don't like it.
(08:41):
Right, I ride the bike in themorning.
Yeah, I have a stationery.
I ride in the morning, readwall street journal, because
it's my, it's a habit, right, I,I read with it.
But lifting weights I lovedoing that, I always have.
But because then you can seekind of that change.
But some people just don't likethat, right, and then, and you
have the ability from atechnology and the data that
(09:02):
really helps them meet theirfitness goals.
And you mentioned too, which Ithink is very interesting, is,
you know, everyone's fitnessgoal is different and not trying
to force something on them.
And it could be just agrandfather who wants to play
with his kid playing basketball,right, so he may do a little
bit of resistance training tohelp his knees or help his back.
So you know, understandingtheir goals and being able to
(09:22):
address them in a day-to-daymanner is very powerful 100 so,
uh, can you tell us a little bitmore about your role with the
company?
uh, you know how you got intothe, the marketing, the
technology, uh, into fitness anduh, were there some roles that
led up to this?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
yeah.
I mean, I've always been anentrepreneur, so I've owned my
own businesses, uh, pretty muchalmost my entire career.
When I got out of school,though, so I went to school for
business.
I got out of school, I was inthe typical sort of business
like sales jobs, right, becausewhen you go to school for
marketing, everybody wants youto do sales, right, that's it,
and it was okay.
My first job was actually I wasin Manhattan, and it was boiler
(10:02):
room man.
It was just a phone and a bunchof business cards on a desk and
you were sellingtelecommunication services, and
I hated it, could not stand it,so I actually I bought myself a
computer and I went around.
I moved back to Orlando, whichis where we're based now Orlando
, florida and I went around andjust designed a bunch of logos
(10:22):
and went to an ad firm and said,hey look, I need a job.
And they were like look, weonly have this $8 an hour
internship that you can.
I was like I'll take it, I justwant to learn the business, and
so, from there, I ended upopening um, I did that for for a
while, um, and then I uh, whenI was done with that, I had a
couple of friends that had ownedsome marketing firms in town.
(10:43):
And I called them.
They said, hey, look, because Ialways hung out with older
people, so you know I sayfriends.
They were probably like 15years older than I was at the
time, and so I called them upand said, yeah, I always felt
like I could learn from them.
Right, they've been around theblock a little bit.
So I called him up and LouLantani, who's our CEO right now
(11:09):
and the the one of the foundersof of Echelon and he said, look
, and Lou at the time had acompany called Viatech Consumer
Products and they built and madeproducts.
And he said, hey, he's hiring.
So I went to the house and wehit it off.
He hired me the same day and soI ended up running their entire
building, all of of their,their tech, running their
marketing department for thatcompany for quite a long time
(11:31):
and then branched out, startedmy own company.
And, lo and behold, one dayLou's doctor told him hey, man,
you're just in bad shape, youneed to start doing something.
And you know they were sellinga fitness bike on qbc at the
time called the flex bike yeahand he said, hey, how can we
make this better?
and so he and I were talking andhe said, hey, look, maybe,
(11:52):
maybe we should do an app.
He's like you do apps, maybe wecould.
And so we started developing anapp for it and, lo and behold,
echelon was born.
So out out of that, that'swhere Echelon came about, and
it's really been like a rocketship journey from there.
And then we took on someprivate equity.
They bought my company, broughtme in as a co-founder and one
(12:14):
of the partners in the business,but my side of the business is
the tech and the product side,which is the app, and so that's
kind of really how that started.
But we really started which iscrazy from like an extreme
programming methodology.
I mean, we would just build andpush it out, get customer
feedback quickly and pushanother, build out and fix the
problems, and that's kind of howwe rolled everything out until
(12:36):
we became sort of an agileorganization after some time.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, excellent, when you look at some of the
challenges or opportunities yousee within the market.
Obviously, kind of some of theeconomic uncertainty now,
tariffs, no tariffs, taxes, notaxes.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You know what keeps you up at night when you look at
some of the challenges andopportunities that you have in
front of you going to deal withthat side of the business a
little more than me, but to me Idon't worry about things like
that, because you can alwaysmake a shift in business right.
Those are sort of simple shifts,and I think tariffs will be a
(13:14):
will it be a short-livedsolution to an end goal and I
don't know that there'll beforever.
What keeps me up at night isreally trying to stay ahead of
the technology but sort ofmaintaining like a genuine
connection with our member right.
So, with all of thistechnological innovation right,
with trying to get a balancebetween the innovation, with
(13:37):
trying to get a balance betweenthe innovation, leveraging AI,
create personalized experiences,how do we stay human in all of
that right?
How do we keep that connectionwith our customer where it
doesn't just seemtransaction-based right?
And so I think one of thethings for us is what we've
really tried to do and design inour entire tech stack is really
(13:58):
keep the instructor and thatsort of human element of the
training as part of that and tryto use the technology to create
the bond between the instructorand the customer even further,
because we just don't want tolose that human element and that
community sense of it.
You know, any time we lose amember, if we do, and it's very,
(14:19):
very few I'm going to say youknow, one of the biggest things
they miss is the community.
It's that human connection.
That's what people miss all thetime and that's one of the
things that I really want to tryto stay true to, even with all
of this technology that's aroundus and all the advancements
that we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
And you mentioned staying ahead of technology.
That's a pretty significantchallenge for most people in
customer loyalty, customerexperience, right.
We have a growing brandcommunity, we meet, talk about
different challenges andopportunities, but you know,
understanding this technologydoesn't work together, does not
work together.
It was promised to do this.
It does Y versus X, so it canbe a big challenge.
So you know, how do you keepahead in the technology space
from a customer experienceperspective, but also from a?
(15:00):
You know, an offering to thecustomers that are going to keep
them engaged because everythingis changing right.
You have, you know, the OL1 orOLP inhibitors, right.
The olxin pigs and others thatare promising health, but still
holistically America is stillnot healthy right, and you
obviously are offering a, are anauthor of a great technology
that can create very uniqueengagement.
So how do you keep up with bothsides of that technology curve?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I think, right, it's almost a flip right.
I think staying ahead of thetechnology curves means staying
in front of and on top of whatyour customers actually want.
As far as that goes, right, Idon't necessarily have to have,
let's say, you know, tesla hasthese robots now that can do
these crazy things right, Idon't necessarily have to have
(15:44):
the craziest latest technology.
I have to have what's best formy customer and to me, I think
that's what's staying ahead ofthe technology curve is keeping
that human element.
And how does that human elementapply to what I implement
within my tech stack or in myproduct?
Right, the customer needs todrive.
What I'm putting out there andI think that's a really
(16:05):
important thing is not to putthe tech first, but put your
customer first and let theirneeds and what they need as far
as you know what's keepingretention and engagement let
that lead what you implementtech-wise.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Absolutely so.
When you look at customerloyalty, that's another very
important topic, obviously,since we're the trade
association for it.
When you look at customerloyalty, what does it mean to
you and to Echelon?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Oh, that's a good question, and I think for me,
it's just what I said before.
How do I follow amember-centered approach, right?
So, rather than chasing everynew technology trend, like we
were saying before, it reallymeans focusing on what is my
(16:56):
customer need?
What do they really want?
Right?
How do I keep members engagedon their fitness journey over a
long period of time?
It's not just about, right, oh,they got 100 rides.
Here you go.
Here's a coupon code.
What's actually going to bemeaningful for them over the
long journey of their fitnesscareer?
(17:17):
Because it is a career, right?
If it's a lifetime thing thatyou're doing as far as fitness
goes, you're going to come inand start as a beginner.
You're going to be anintermediate.
You may fall back a little bit.
You're going to have days whereyou don't want to do it.
How does everything that I'mproviding to a customer help
them achieve their ultimate goaland stay with it for life?
(17:37):
That's really the question youhave to ask, and it's going to
be very different for everysingle business, right?
Because your customer isdifferent.
They come to your brand fordifferent things, and so I think
true loyalty really comes whenmembers actually achieve their
goals, and it seems effortless,and they do it in a way when I
(18:01):
say effortless, I mean they'redoing it in a way that's really
genuine, where they feel thateverything I add, every app
update, every new technologyimprovement is helping support
what they're doing and trying tohelp them reach their goal.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Absolutely.
And how does the echelon rewardzone fit into your vision for
customer loyalty within theorganization?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, I mean it's really designed to help
celebrate members and theirengagement, right.
So really to go beyond rewardsand badges, right, we want to
acknowledge members and thethings that they're doing and
the things that they're doing.
But when we're talking about afitness journey and consistent
progress, milestone achievementsand community participation, it
(18:47):
should really feel sort ofmutual right and members are
investing their time and energywith us.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And so that loyalty program has to provide
additional value, not justrecognition, right?
Loyalty program is not justabout badges.
But what additional value?
Through a loyalty we want toconnect them to that brand,
(19:18):
right?
We don't want to just say, oh,here's a list of everything that
you, that you can get in yourreward program.
Let's say, maybe it's a trulypersonalized sort of connection
based on their efforts, based ontheir goals and based on what
they're trying to do.
So to me, that that's what Ithink true loyalty and true sort
of like a reward zone for acustomer could look like.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Okay, you talked about personalization, another
very relevant topic within thecustomer loyalty industry right
now, making sure that it'srelevant, make sure it's timely,
right channel, right place,right product.
So you've touched on a numberof those things.
The data you have obviously isvery important, is very
(19:59):
important.
You know what doespersonalization mean to Echelon
and how do that?
The personalized workouts thatyou offer kind of drive some of
that personalization strategy?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, I mean.
So basically we're talkingabout customers now, right.
So we really want to try totruly understand what their goal
is and really what their uniquejourney is.
It's not just aboutrecommending content on, like
past paper oh, let's say, youtook a bunch of country music
(20:26):
classes or you take 20 minuterunning classes, power classes,
every day.
It's not just aboutrecommending that class because
you've taken those before andyou're most likely to take them.
It's not just aboutrecommending that class because
you've taken those before andyou're most likely to take them.
It's really about understandingeach member's goals and
preferences and theircapabilities, right, so that you
(20:49):
deliver an experience thatevolves with them.
So we really want to go beyondthe surface level to create an
experience that really feelstailored to that customer.
It could include adaptingworkout intensity, progression
rates, mixing differentmodalities.
So if you have multiple piecesof equipment, maybe now there's
a circuit training that you getrecognized, right.
(21:11):
10 minutes on a treadmill, 10minutes on a bike, you know
another 10 minutes here.
Now you did 30 minutes ofcardio, but it seemed fast,
moving and it's entertaining,because that's what we know
you're like and that's the rightmix that's best for each member
.
I think you know how our systemworks.
What we do is we sort of gothrough a questionnaire, sort of
(21:32):
an onboarding, so we can sortof get a baseline need of where
the customer is like, what theirgoals are, how they like to
work out, and then we basicallyanalyze that.
We go back to the current datathat we have in the system and
measure it against that data sothat we can give a good
recommendation, and then wecontinuously refine it, right.
So we look at what they'redoing, we look at what their
(21:52):
goals are and we even use likecontextual factors, right, like
available time that they canwork out, equipment access,
whether they're working out athome or in a gym, right.
So these are the things we tryto play with so that we can
really hone in on what themember actually wants and that
it seems like it's truepersonalization.
(22:13):
And there's a couple things thatI think differentiate us from
what's currently out there.
I think the widespreadecosystem that we have right is
something that we do.
We don't focus on a singlepiece of equipment.
So, uh, if you're a commercialfacility, we have an app that a
(22:34):
user can go into, put in theirgoals and based on the equipment
in that facility, whether it'sEchelon equipment or not, it
will recommend a workout for youin that gym and you will move
through that facility and do aworkout.
The data will save and then goback to our backend and then
when you go back home, right,we'll take that information and
then maybe recommend a treadmillworkout if you're working out
at home that day.
(23:01):
So it's really a unique sort ofecosystem to do that.
So there's cross-environmentalintegration as well.
And then, like I mentionedbefore, we really have
instructor-informed AI.
So our instructors actuallybuild out plans and they're
looking at prompts and we'reworking with them every day to
sort of update this and changethis based on the recommendation
.
Is this a good program, is thisnot?
And so there's really still thehuman element behind it that's
driving and helping the enginelearn and continue to make
(23:22):
adjustments based off customerneeds and goals.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Okay, and you recently announced a partnership
with AWS, amazon Web Services,to launch a generative AI power
fitness platform that deliverspersonalized workouts,
personalized experiences.
What motivated Echelon topartner with AWS and what are
you seeing so far?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Well, I mean, look, I think we've had an amazing
partnership with AWS from thebeginning.
We've been cloud-based sinceday one.
They have been an amazingpartner and through our
relationship with them, we'veI've spoken to them a number of
times.
We've talked about our goalsand what we want to do and how
(24:05):
we can do it together.
Right, because, you know, ifyou've noticed, here sort of the
theme is like how Echelon isdoing things together with other
companies in order to make thebiggest impact in the industry.
It's not just about, hey, we'rejust doing this in a bubble and
pushing this out there.
Right, how do we work with thebest and brightest in pushing
this out there?
Right, how do we work with thebest and brightest?
(24:27):
You know, how do we useAmazon's bedrock, which is, you
know, api driven based models.
So now we can take this, thesemodels, and even place them in
other people's apps.
So if people want to use our AItechnology, we can help build
it within their app and use thetechnology and the models that
we built for them to use thesame technology.
So it's how do we grow and howdo technology and the models
that we've built for them to usethe same technology?
(24:48):
So it's how do we grow and howdo we make the biggest impact in
the industry, and with apartner like AWS, that's
possible.
Some of the rates just to throwsome numbers out here we're
seeing 86% workout plancompletion with personalized
plans as opposed to 78% juststandalone workouts.
That's a pretty big increasewhen you're talking about
(25:09):
millions of workouts.
That's a lot.
From the research we've donewith Amazon and what we're
seeing, it looks like about a 7%improvement in retention rates,
which is amazing Engagementwith our.
So we have a virtual world thatwe've created.
It's called Echelon Worlds.
It's a 3D avatar and you can gothrough and create your own
(25:30):
avatar and you ride through 3Dworlds.
There's even instructor-ledones where you can compete
against instructors on it.
Anyway, for those workoutswe're seeing on Treadmills 23%
long standard programming.
So members that are receivingpersonalized recommendations 34%
(25:51):
more likely to try new workoutmodalities.
So right, if they're in greatexperience on a treadmill,
they're more likely to go andbuy a bike, and so partnering
with a company like AWS reallyallowed us to move quickly,
because Amazon Bedrock is anamazing tool for personalized
plans and, being that it's APIdriven, allows us a lot of
(26:11):
flexibility, so it just seemedlike a no brainer for us to do
that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, what's the next big thing for customer loyalty,
customer experience?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Let me add something real quick too.
Let me add something real quicktoo.
I think one of the great things, too, about Amazon and what led
us to that, is really it'sallowed us to balance capability
and cost.
Ok, right, the way we'vedesigned this and how we can
(26:47):
implement this tool and I don'twant to give away too much but
it's really been super costeffective to allow us to
maximize the ROI on it.
So we have high capable AImodels at a very low cost and a
lot of it's per usage, so ifyou're not using it, you don't
pay for it, and so it's a reallygreat way for companies to
implement AI models.
Even, like I said before, if wecan apply this into another
company's application, the costis still low for the both of us
to run this, and so it's reallya great way to sort of change
(27:09):
the industry and allow thistechnology to be used in mass.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Okay, excellent.
Yeah, it sounds like thepartnership is symbiotic for
both brands.
So that's good to hear, becausethat can be a big challenge for
brands making sure and it'smore of a technology partnership
(27:34):
when you get into thebrand-to-brand partnerships that
can be a big challenge for manybrands today to making sure
that the value proposition isaligned for both brands.
So what's the next big thingfor customer?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
loyalty, customer experience for Echelon.
The next big thing, I think thenext big thing for us is really
seeing where the AI technologytakes us.
I think, when you're looking atdeveloping technology, how far
(28:06):
can we go with real-timecoaching capabilities and really
giving users that feedback toreally help drive them through
AI and through moving beyondprogrammatic recommendations to
almost provide in-the-momentrecommendations of intensity and
technique?
I think that's a really bigthing that we want.
(28:30):
We really want to help userssort of hit their best and
that's up to them to decide, butthey can put that in the system
and then the system will guidethem.
Also sort of creating, I think,a stronger integration between
consumer and commercialapplications.
Yeah, like we were talkingabout sort of that hybrid model.
(28:52):
But how do we right fitness thatfollows you really is what we
want to do.
So no matter where you are,this same ecosystem is following
you.
That's why I was talking alittle bit earlier about the
APIs.
We can implement this intoother tech stacks and we're
really trying to be more of sortof a SaaS organization system
as opposed to just products.
(29:12):
And the third part of that, Ithink, is really creating sort
of immersive experiences, andwhen I mean immersive
experiences.
It doesn't just respond toperformance metrics, but how you
feel.
Treadmills that adjust,treadmills that have different
feels, maybe ones that can mimicthe road when you're running
outside on the road.
A lot of what we see withcustomers today are, you know, a
(29:36):
lot of people in the Northeastor the Northwest, right it gets
cold, so they're inside duringthe winter months and then
outside they're running.
What if you could give themsomething that could get that
same experience all year round?
And I think that's somethingthat's really important for us
and sort of what I see, the nextcouple of big things, of what
we'll sort of focus on as acompany.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned that
too.
I have two daughters who aredifferent athletes right now.
One is on her way but one wasnot eating enough.
Literally just last Saturday wehad to go through see a
nutritionist right, look atrecovery.
She has a pretty good jobrecovery, but not eating enough
was it was a big piece for herand they did some imaging with
uh ultrasound to look at her,her, her on her thighs or quads
(30:15):
and her energy capacity in her.
Both of her quads was very,very low and it's interesting.
I think there's such a big piecearound uh health and wellness
and fitness on recovery wheremany people don't get into that
Right.
So, knowing where your body is,you know, having applications
like a whoop or something, or ifyou have these as well, that
show, oh, maybe you shouldn'twork out today.
(30:36):
Maybe you take the day offRight, maybe your knees are
bothering you because people,that's where people get overuse.
Injuries are something I'mfamiliar with right now and I
think people who start off infitness, who may be a little
obese or out of shape, try topush it too hard.
Sometimes they get hurt andthey're like all right, I'm done
with this.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So I'm glad you mentioned that, because a couple
of things there.
So we, um, we are, we acquireda company, um, a cold plunge
company, so we're implementingrecovery into our platform now.
So that's going to be part ofthe training now.
And one of the pieces youmentioned which I really like,
(31:12):
because I mentioned earlierabout a holistic sort of health
journey, and holistic is thatright, I need recovery.
I'm not sleeping, so we'retaking information from
wearables that's going to applyto your workout.
Maybe, if you didn't sleep, wejust change it.
Hey, don't do this 45-minuteclass today.
Why don't you do this guidedmeditation?
Let's do this, we'll get youmoving, but let's change this.
(31:37):
I think it's a really importantpiece and the way we've
implemented our.
We have a chatbot, an AIechelon trainer within our AI
program, and so, let's say, Iwork out shoulders and, man, my
shoulder is hurting.
I did something wrong.
I pinched it, right, I was toowide on a bench press and it was
too heavy and I pinched it, andso I need to give a couple of
days rest.
I can actually go in there andsay, hey, look, my shoulder
(31:58):
hurts today.
Can you adjust all upper bodyworkouts and get rid of any arm
movements and the system willthen change it and take it out
for you.
So that is a really importantpiece to this and really I think
adds to sort of customerloyalty and the personalization
journey, because I think thosetwo go hand in hand right.
When customers feel like youcare about them, they're going
(32:19):
to be more loyal.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
No, I think it's a great.
The recovery is a big piece.
Uh, and also for those whodon't know, if they're lifting
weights right, Like my wife uhwas a swam in Kentucky, uh,
solid athlete, but she doesn'tlike lifting Right.
But she's realizing that, uh,doing cardio running, it's not
going to change your body whenyou get a certain age, right,
you have to lift.
Resistance training, you have todo it and you have to do a lot
of it.
You can keep your muscle, butif you don't lose your muscle
(32:44):
right, it impacts the blood flowaround your bones so your bones
get brittle.
It increases your uh, you knowyour what's that?
Metabolic rate, your stablemeta basal rate.
It impacts so many things froma fitness perspective that
people.
But then if they don't know howto lift right, if they're
lifting getting hurt, they'relike, oh, like for me, like
lifting my whole life like uh,do it, like, ah, do it like this
.
I show them time and then youcome back down their form's
(33:05):
wrong.
No, you got to do it this way,right, or you're going to get
hurt.
I think so many people get hurtthat I hear from and they're
like, oh, I'm just done, but therecovery piece is a big piece
of that right and that's anamazing.
Like all right, I haven't done105 in a while I'm going to do
(33:25):
this right.
I got them up three times.
I got a second-degree tear, asprain, in my elbow, and it took
like three, four months to healand now I wear double wraps all
the time.
But it's still things that mostpeople don't know right,
Because your joints take such apounding 100% Running or biking,
whatever you got to giveyourself that recovery time.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Well, and as you get older, your joints can only take
so much more.
So you know you're 25, you wantto bench press 225, 300 pounds
go right ahead.
But if you took a break fromlifting for a while and you
haven't done it, and now you're38, you're 40 years old, you
can't go right back and do that.
You have to.
You can ease up to it and getthere again.
(34:04):
You just have to ease up andtake the ego out of it and work
your way back up.
And I think that's an importantpart of this piece too is
getting people at their rightlevel at the right time and
helping them work up to wherethey need to work up to.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And then that recovery piece and nutrition is
super important, yeah, and whenthey start seeing games, people
get involved.
But I think the ego is a bigthing, right, especially, you
know, again, I'm prettyconsistent the whole time, but
it's my first two with theschool kicked into a whole
nother level again, but overChristmas, like I can do that
way.
But you know, and now just youstart reading, and the older you
get this, the elasticity in allyour joints, with people have
(34:42):
shoulders, right, it's the joint, it's the tendons, it's the
ligaments that have the issue.
So, uh, but no, it's cool.
This has been a been a greatdiscussion.
Oh, last question yeah, um,what are two or three things
you're most proud of?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
uh, you know about your program most proud of all,
right, so I I think one of thebig things is really that we've
been able to sort of democratizefitness and provide a really
high value product and premiumexperiences at excellent price
points to a large amount ofpeople.
Because for me, it's not justabout this.
(35:16):
I don't obviously I wantEchelon to be successful, but
the mission right, I want peopleto be healthy.
It stinks when you're nothealthy and you don't feel good.
Right, you can't do things withyour children, you can't do
certain things, or, you know,maybe you're more irritable,
right, your kids ask you forsomething like oh, I got to get
(35:37):
up again, but if you feel good,it doesn't matter.
And so that's really themission here is to really make
people feel better.
It's not about getting abs,it's not about the.
It's about feeling better andto do the everyday thing, things
that you want.
Think, secondly, like ourbalance between and the approach
of uh technology integration.
(35:58):
Right, yeah, we did leverage aiand machine learning to enhance
, but we didn't lose that humanelement of it.
It still feels human, the wayyou've implemented it feels fun,
and I think it really it's.
It's important to continue tokeep the instructor element in
that, in that human element whenyou're providing technology
(36:20):
solutions.
Finally, I think, right, we'rereally having an impact on our
members' lives.
I mean ultimately.
I mean, if you look at, I meanI've got tons of members.
I got members that send meChristmas cards and stuff just
because they're you know theywere.
There is a member that was 400pounds and now is 180 pounds,
(36:42):
and they attribute that it'sbecause of Echelon and the
instructors as to why they wereable to stay with the program
and consistent.
Now they didn't lose it in 30days.
It wasn't like a 90 day, butthey stuck with it and it
provided meaningful results tothem.
And I think that's ultimatelywhat this is really all about.
Right, it's about people livinga healthier, more active life,
(37:05):
and that doesn't mean they'reDavid Goggins-ing it every day.
They're not running 25 miles aday.
It's where they are at thatpoint in their life and what
more active means to them,specifically for them in their
life?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
No, you're 100% right .
So, no, this has been a great,great, great interview.
I talk fitness all day.
It's a big piece of mine,especially with what I've been
doing the last month on thenutrition side, but well, that's
great.
So now we have our wonderfulquick fire questions.
We like to keep the responsesto a word or two or a short
phrase.
(37:41):
So the first one what is yourfavorite word?
Discipline?
Okay, what?
What's your least favorite word?
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It's actually two words, but it's.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
What excites you?
Everything we've been talkingabout here building something
that really somebody is actuallyusing, that actually makes a
change, right there's.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
There's something that's a long lasting result
that impacts multiple people inan industry.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Absolutely.
And what do you find tiresomeRehashing old things?
I just like to move forward.
Just, we are where we are.
Let's move forward, right.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Absolutely.
Is there a book that you haveread, or read periodically, that
you'd like to recommend tocolleagues?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, so there's two Right.
So if you're talking business,I like the book Hooked.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
That book is really good, but personally I like
Anthem by A A Rand.
It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Okay, I have not read either of them.
I'm an avid reader, but I'llhave to check out the Hook.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, they're good, they're great.
Hooked is really great, likehow to keep people in a product
and psychological behavior andhow to build great products for
people that they really enjoy.
Yeah.
Anthem by Anne Rand is anothergood one.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's a good book.
I'm not an Anne Rand fan.
It's kind of hard for me tofollow, but I love it.
I'm not either.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
It's one of her shorter books.
Okay, it's about this thick asopposed to this thick.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah.
So it it's a pretty quick readand I thought it was
entertaining, okay, only oneI've read by her Okay, what
profession, other than the oneyou currently are in, would you
maybe like to attempt?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
F1 driver.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
There you go.
Okay, what do you enjoy doingthat you often don't get the
time to do?
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Paint.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Paint is in a house or paint is in a portrait?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, paint is in artwork paintings who, okay,
paint as in a house or paint asin a portrait.
No, paint as in, like artworkpaintings who inspired you to
become the person you are today.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
My parents.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I have to say what do you typically think about at
the end of the day?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
When I'm tucking my kids in and I'm at my house.
Just how lucky I am.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
That's awesome, and how do you want to be remembered
by your friends and family?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Loyal.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's awesome.
Love that Well, john.
Friends and family loyal that'sawesome.
Love that well, john.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with us today.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou and getting to know more
about echelon also about youpersonally.
It was a very solid interview.
Fitness and health are two bigthings that, uh, more and more
people should be focused on.
Again, great interview andthanks for the time yeah, thank
you, I appreciate it, loved it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Uh, feeding me on again.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Happy to do it, we'll talk soon perfect and thank you
everyone for taking the time tojoin us on the Lead to Customer
Loyalty series on the brandstory side.
Make sure you join us everyThursday and until then, have a
wonderful day.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
See you guys.
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