In this edition of Loyalty360’s Executive Spotlight, we speak with Don Smith, Chief Consulting Officer at Capillary Technologies. With nearly two decades of experience at Brierley, now part of Capillary, Don offers unique insight into the evolving loyalty landscape — from program design and advanced analytics to the role of AI-driven personalization and member-controlled experiences.
During this conversation with Mark Johnson, Loyalty360 CEO, Don shares his perspective on the future of customer loyalty, the importance of building programs around customer choice, and how loyalty strategies must evolve to address shifting customer expectations. He also discusses the challenges and opportunities of coalition loyalty in the U.S., the potential for innovation in the automotive sector, and the critical importance of listening to customers and acting on that feedback to build authentic, data-driven relationships.
For loyalty professionals, brand leaders, and those shaping customer engagement strategies, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable takeaways to apply in your own programs.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good afternoon, good morning.
This is Mark Johnson fromLoyalty360.
I hope everyone's happy, safeand well.
I want to welcome you back toour new interview series, the
Loyalty360 Executive Spotlight.
It's part of our Leaders inCustomer Loyalty series.
In this new series, we featureconversations with some of the
most influential minds drivingsuccess in the most esteemed
(00:24):
customer loyalty programs in themarket today, all of whom are
members of Loyalty360.
Today, we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Don Smith.
He's a chief consulting officerat Capillary.
Welcome, Don.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with us today.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm doing well, Mark.
How are you Doing well?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
thank, you First off, for those who may not know, can
you tell us a little bit aboutCapillary and your role with
Capillary?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yep.
So Capillary is a leadingmarketing services agency.
It's a full-stack solutionprovider that does everything in
customer loyalty engagementsoup to nuts.
We design programs with a richconsultative experience.
We bring a strategy perspective.
We also have a technologyplatform that enables those it's
(01:09):
a CDP, it's an entire loyaltyplatform to run the program.
We have a communicationssolution and platform as well as
a reward solution for sourcingcatalogs and gifts.
I mean, we really do do it alland we provide back-end
analytics and back-end strategysupport to optimize and improve
those programs.
And Capillary has been aroundfor about 15 years.
(01:31):
Some of the folks who may bewatching this may know Briarley,
and Briarley is the agency fromwhich I come and I've been
there for almost 18 years.
And two years ago Capillarypurchased Briarley and I think
part of that acquisition wasreally focused on bringing our
strategic and consultingperspective with respect to
(01:51):
program design, and so it's beena really great fit.
And we're still Briarley.
We're just a wholly ownedsubsidiary of Capillary and we
really are that globalconsulting arm of the agency and
my role is leading theconsulting practice, which is
advanced analytics, data science, but also strategy, program
(02:12):
design, optimization and all ofour voice of customer research
as well.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So, don, I know we have had a number of
conversations throughout theyears.
You seem to be always on top ofkind of what's next in customer
loyalty.
So what do you think is thenext big trend in customer
loyalty, or what are you mostexcited about as an opportunity
customer loyalty, and how isCapillary preparing for it.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I'll answer it in a way thatsays look, there's a trend and
then there's a couple of trendswithin that trend that get
consumed, Mark, and I think thetrend I'm most excited about is
member choice.
More and more, we're seeingloyalty programs tailored to the
preferences of members andthey're going to be in control,
not just in terms of theirredemption or what they earn
(02:58):
with the program.
They're also going to be incontrol with respect to their
accrual in many respects and theperks that they select and the
benefits, and I think this isexciting.
You're seeing more of this.
But I think the trend thateveryone would have talked about
last year was it'shyper-personalization driven by
AI.
Right, and I've said thisbefore, the problem is we did
(03:19):
not hit that trend.
I mean not we as an industry.
I think we're very hyper butnot personalized enough, and I
think that's where I'm excited,because this notion of choice
for members and letting them bein control of their destiny and
really enjoy the program andhave a reason to stick with the
brand is going to come back tothe level of personalization
(03:40):
that they received, and the moreauthentic it is and the more
data-driven that honors thepromise of the data those
members are sharing, the betterthis is going to work and I
think programs are finallyrealizing that we have to
embrace clienteling as apossibility and start arming the
people who deal with customersand members and letting them be
(04:01):
in the position to delightcustomers and sweeten the pot
and facilitate the experienceand anticipate their need state,
and I think all of those thingsare coming together in a
beautiful way.
That really is the age of thecustomer.
You asked how Capillary ispreparing for it.
Well, we're designing programsthat have all of these features,
but I think most importantly iswe've set aside such a large
(04:23):
portion of our operating budgetjust for AI and product
enhancement, and so we'rebringing in a lot of automation
through AI generative as well asprescriptive and predictive but
we're doing it in the rightways and it's always with the
litmus test of how does thismake this better for the
marketer, how can we serve thecustomer better and how can we
(04:44):
start tailoring, and I thinkwe're really going at that and
we're seeing incremental lifts.
No one has perfected the AIsolution and there's a lot of
noise around AI, but a measuredstrategy and that's what
Capillary has is what are theexperiences I'm going to make
better and really tailoring tothe approach.
That's how we're getting readyto jump in and we're already in
(05:05):
deep and we're just going to getdeeper and better.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That's awesome If you could collaborate with regard
to a customer loyalty programwith any brand or industry to
create a groundbreaking customerloyalty program.
What would that be and why?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It's a good question and I'll answer it like I think
my number one answer is I wantit to be a coalition and ideally
it would be interbrand orintervertical, because I really
do see that the rising tide ofcoalition loyalty can lift all
brand boats if it's engineeredcorrectly and around the world
(05:43):
we're seeing more and moremulti-brand and coalition
designs really proving coming tofruition and delivering on a
promise.
But if I had to pick I mean Iwon't punt on your question If I
had to pick a vertical rightnow where I think loyalty is
underpenetrated and not workingvery well at all, it's
automotive, and less about theautomotive retailers and more
(06:05):
about the dealers, the brandsthat are selling new cars and
new vehicles, and I think that'swhere the opportunity is wide
folded.
We all know it's kind of a salescycle, right, they get you in,
you buy a car and there's a lotof programs out there, but they
really tend to be focused on thenext sale or just generating
(06:25):
the next service visit andgenerating those revenues and
they're not holistic and reallyfacilitating the driving
experience and helping you planout your larger experience as a
driver.
And to me, those programs youknow, and there is a long
purchase cycle If there was apartnership with many other
adjacent brands that fit intothe driver's journey and the
(06:48):
driver's life.
It's just an opportunity to dosomething amazing across the
board with a number of partners,and so I look to that one where
we need the most innovation.
That's clearly one of theverticals for me, and I hope we
see someone step up and justknock it out of the park soon.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
That's awesome.
We had JD Power speak at aconference a number of years ago
seven years ago-ish it was inDallas actually and he just
talked about that industryholistically and how there is
just an agency problem betweenthe manufacturers and the dealer
network.
Right, there's always been thatantagonism there.
They don't have the same goalsand it's a fascinating story and
I'm sure you're very familiarwith that as well.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I am, and I mean, I just think there's so much
opportunity there becausethere's also a share of garage.
You know, conversation, thatneeds to happen, and just
because you've sold one vehiclein a household doesn't mean you
don't have the right to winanother, you know, and be set up
and also be prepared fortrade-ins.
There's all sorts of things.
We should be incentivizing testdrives.
We should be incentivizingregular maintenance and, yes,
(07:48):
partners have a role to play inthat.
Moving beyond simply theautomobile, because some people,
like me, will keep a car for 10years, you know, yeah, and
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
The incentivated test drives.
I think that's a great idea andI always thought there was an
opportunity to potentially workwith, with the rental companies.
Right, because I bought two ofmy cars based on experiences.
I was looking for a car for mywife.
One year rented an explorer,just the base explorer right,
she loved it.
Got home two weeks later boughther a board explorer, you know
st top of the line because sheloved it.
(08:17):
Right, and same thing.
I go out of camaro.
The same reason.
I bought a somewhat of fastcamaro, loved it and bought the
same car right.
So I think there's a greatopportunity there that's totally
missed because, you're right,it's the experience of test
drive.
Do you like it?
Yeah, I love it.
Ok, boom, let's go buy itAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
All of that can come together, so look to see some
innovation there.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, that'd be great and real quick.
You talk about coalition, andin the US, why is coalition not
taken off?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, I think for a number of reasons.
One we have mature, sobusinesses love to own their own
program and when you're tryingto get a program off the ground,
a lot of times you know folkswant to own it, they want to get
to critical mass and be incontrol of their brand, their
brand mission, and they want tobuild their own brand equity.
That's very logical and I thinkmany US brands do have the
(09:07):
marketing maturity to pull itoff, which has led everyone to
go no, we can do this and it'sours right.
And I also think where you'velooked at and there are some
exceptions I won't get too deep,but I think the Plenty
Coalition was the big miss thatran on the rails of American
Express and you know wecertainly worked with a major
brand and advised them to leavethat coalition because it wasn't
(09:29):
living up to its promise.
But I think and so that was aburned experience that many
folks felt, because Plentydefinitely benefited some of the
hero brands but it didn't domuch for the other brands that
were occupying sort of secondarystatus within that program.
And for a coalition to work,there needs to be adjacencies
(09:50):
and complementary positioningwhere any brand can find a way
to be an acquisition vehicle foranother brand in a way that
helps everyone, and that'sreally what good coalition has
to do, and, at the end of theday, the journeys that are
created across those brands haveto feel authentic around things
that consumers want.
And so plenty, I think,definitely left a bad taste in
(10:12):
folks' mouth because it fizzledout so quickly.
But I also think we have a lotof marketing maturity that
exists with US corporations thatlets them think they can get to
scale and many of them do andwant to stay in control of their
own brand equity.
When you move to Europe and youlook at like you talk about a
coalition, like Nectar, forexample, well, my goodness, it's
(10:33):
sticky, you know no punintended, and it's done
something very, very smart withthose brands, and many of them
probably couldn't pull off aloyalty program at scale.
The countries aren't as large,they don't have as many
locations, right, and so thispooling of resources in a
collaborative effort works alittle bit better.
I mean, there's still herobrands within that coalition,
(10:55):
but I think it's brands comingtogether because they don't have
the scale, whereas in the US,some of our biggest brands have
a huge footprint and have a hugeorganization, and so scale
probably plays a role into ittoo.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Excellent.
In your opinion, what is thesingle biggest factor that
drives a solid, great customerexperience?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, I think a great customer experience is a
function of planning whatcustomers want to have a great
experience and I think there aresome prerequisites to that.
For sure, and we can't.
So getting it right from aservice and delivery perspective
which isn't always the role ofloyalty, right, but just things
like competent employees do whatyou say you're gonna do,
(11:38):
deliver a high quality productand service.
Those are prerequisites forprograms to work as best they
can, you know, and do theblocking and tackling.
But for us, when we think aboutengineering customer experiences
, we've stood in the shoes ofthe consumer or the customer and
we're donning the mental mantleof the customer.
We're talking to them in focusgroups, we're talking to them in
(12:00):
IDIs, we're bouncing theirfeedback off of customer panels
and asking where is a frictionpoint where customers stub their
toe?
How can we rise up at areal-time inflection point and
potentially solve it or make itbetter?
Right, and where are placeswhere folks would love to get
something or a benefit, a perkor just some help from a brand?
(12:21):
And if the theory is right andyou identify the places where
you can take a bad experience ora mediocre experience and make
it great, those are the placeswe start focusing our efforts.
Right is trying to find that,but you have to research them
ahead of time and if you'regoing to keep them and make them
work, you also have to dofinancial modeling on that and
(12:41):
make sure that we're notprescribing too much or doing
something that becomes dilutiveor breaks the bank.
We want to deliver meaningfulexperiences, high perceived
value benefits, but do it in avery responsible way so that it
can get traction and besustained.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Excellent.
And where did you attendcollege?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
For undergraduate I went to a small liberal arts
college, St Andrews PresbyterianCollege.
It's now become St AndrewsUniversity.
That's in North Carolina, and Idid grad school at Florida
State.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, excellent.
And Don, what was your firstjob after college?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So I graduated from Florida and I was an academic
and so I started out as acollege professor.
My very first job at a gradschool was teaching at Rice
University.
It was a one-year teachingappointment, you know, because
someone was on maternity leaveand they'll hire you for one
year and Rice is a pretty goodschool and I sort of stepped in
and taught classes and it was awonderful experience.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Excellent.
What is one thing you rememberfrom that job?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
What I remember about this job was I sat down the
first days and, like Ricestudents if you haven't heard,
rice is really a gem of auniversity and the quality of
the undergraduate students theysource is fantastic.
And I remember being in theseclasses and I taught other
classes before through graduateschool with the same material
(14:04):
and the quality of thediscussion and thinking that we
got was absolutely amazing.
And I think one of the things Ikind of learned from that was
wow, it's a really.
There were students in thatroom much smarter than me.
I mean, I remember my firstseminar and people were just
shooting a little talk overlunch and I started probing like
(14:25):
what were your SAT scores?
And about half of them hadperfect SAT scores, which I did.
These were just smart kids, youknow.
And one of the things abouthaving people smart people
smarter than you, quite franklyaround you it's not a threat,
it's an elevation.
It lifted the quality of thediscussion.
It helped me prepare better andrethink how I was positioning
(14:48):
materials.
It made me a better and rethinkhow I was positioning materials
.
It made me a better teacher,and that's a lesson I think
people need to learn in theworkplace too, anytime that you
get the privilege of workingwith people who are smarter than
you or can teach you somethingin a given area.
It's a blessing and you shouldembrace it.
I really believe that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
No, I think it's absolutely great.
I'm not sure if you've read it,but over the weekend the whole
controversy about DeepSeek rightand kind of how it was funded,
how it maybe went through someloopholes with the chips and
what have you.
But you know, supposedly theyworked with a very young and
very smart team and obviouslythe gentleman had some models
(15:27):
that he'd used from financialinvesting and they were like 24,
25, 26 year old, but very smartpeople and they said have at it
, versus people who are moreinto like work patterns, right,
30, 40, 50, you do thingscertain way or not.
So it was a very interestingdiscussion how they did what you
just mentioned right, used verysmart people, that kind of
rethought the whole process.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I completely agree and I think this whole
positioning I remember.
There's this notion of a boywith a hammer, right, and the
story goes you give a boy ahammer and he'll decide that
everything he encountersrequires hammering.
And I think sometimes we becomelittle boys with hammers in our
professions if we go.
But I've always builtpredictive models this way and
(16:12):
identified next best actionsthis way and set up my A-B test
this way, and I think opening itup and going look, everything
is open for disruption andimprovement really does
democratize the process, andstrong businesses have to be
willing to do that.
It's one of the things I loveabout Capillary is that we're
constantly doing thesehackathons within the company.
(16:33):
Hey, let's solve a differentproblem.
Take one of our tools and seeif you can make it better.
Can you map one new experienceinto that?
And they'll have these weekendlong contests and developers and
others will get together andwrite user stories and come up
with new solutions.
And that's how you startchanging the narrative and
making the tools work harder.
It's being willing to leteveryone into the process and
(16:54):
not having any third rails thatyou can't touch of how you do
things.
Honestly, it's how we designloyalty programs.
Just today we did an internalfocus group for a potential
client.
We brought our employees whouse the product into groups and
asked their opinions and saidwhat would you change if you
could change how these programsoperate and if you could change
the retail experience?
And they told us and you getideas that you never would have
(17:21):
gotten before.
When you do that changedinnovation and energy and also
channeling it in a productivemanner that can be
operationalized, can befinancially responsible and,
quite frankly, can be morallyethical as well.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Excellent.
So, looking back on your firstjob, what was something you
learned as a professor that hastranslated into your career and
customer loyalty yeah, I thinkthe one thing you learn as a
professor.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
In fact, I remember giving my first lecture in
graduate school to a large classand it didn't quite go as I had
planned, and one of thestudents I thought it was
brilliant, I made great examplesand I forgot.
I'm dealing with 18-year-oldsand 19-year-olds.
You know, and you can quicklyread the room and figure out
(18:07):
that things aren't landing andpeople are distracting and not
appreciated and you must coursecorrect.
And I think that this learningis know your audience and always
be paying attention to how yourmessage is received, how your
customers are feeling, how yourclients are feeling, and be
willing to adapt.
And I really do think that weall need to do that.
(18:28):
When you're giving apresentation, it should always
be a discussion with youraudience.
Even when you're on stage atLoyalty360 and there's 500
people in the room, you do needto be looking around and seeing
how your message is landing andif folks are engaging with it
and if not, you may need totailor your approach a little
bit, go deeper with someexamples or move quicker, and I
(18:48):
think that's the art that needsto be there and it really does
speak to how loyalty programsneed to run too.
There's not one voice for everycustomer segment, there's not
one voice for every brand, andyou have to keep working to find
the right voice and the rightmessage and be willing to adapt
to earn that authenticity.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
No, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, one of the challengeswe've always seen within loyalty
360, especially as we've grownthe member side is brands have
challenged truly listening toand understanding their
customers.
Right, they hear in a passive.
I heard this you know all thisnew technology that was supposed
to be the?
You know the secret sauce orthe?
You know that addressed theseopportunities has made it more
(19:28):
challenging, more cumbersome.
Right, you have more data.
How do you make it actionable?
Still that listening to andunderstanding the customer is a
very challenging process and ifyou're listening to them and you
can't do something, even sayingwe can't do this, but tell them
that you appreciate them, so atsome point, as you know,
they'll tune out, they'll quittelling you.
If you're not, you know eitherthanking them or actioning on
that data, correct?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I completely agree with you on both points and I
think the latter one may be evenmore important, like what is
the point of creating apreference center or a
zero-party inventory Tell meyour interests, tell me your
likes, tell me which productsyou need or about your family If
you don't honor the socialcontract of sourcing information
and provisioning the messagingaround it right?
(20:09):
Folks, I still think a lot offolks will share a lot of
information with us if we honorthe social contract and take it
to heart and make a betterexperience for them, you know,
and that means not recommendingthings that are completely out
of their need state, that don'tmake any sense for them, you
know, and trying to think abouttheir journey and map and
experiences and things that'llbe meaningful to them and really
(20:32):
also identify areas where theymight have a friction point and
smooth it over.
Those are the things thatpeople really appreciate and to
facilitate the experiencesbeyond the transaction and
there's still much to do inmodern marketing in that regard.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Looking back, what's the best work advice you've ever
been given?
I was working as a graveyardcook in college at an IHOP and
it was a tough time and prior tothat time I was like any kid.
I'd had a whole bunch ofdifferent jobs in the service
industry to make money.
But I really needed thisgraveyard cook job and it paid
better than most jobs for acollege student did.
(21:14):
It was an owner-operator ofthis franchise and I saw just
how hard this guy worked.
I'd started as a dishwasher.
One of the cooks quit.
They promoted me to cook and itwas taking me a while to
multitask and to learn toprepare all the stuff quickly.
I mean, there's skills.
You have to be able to flipeggs and land them without
breaking up at the same timethat you're dropping batter.
(21:36):
And it may sound ridiculous,but I was very slow in my first
couple of days and on the thirdday the owner came and he said
look, don, it's time to light afire under your butt and improve
your learning curve or get out.
And that may not be verybeautiful advice that would be
on the cover of a book but Ithink it is advice a lot of
times people need to hear, andwhat I realized was I was like
(21:57):
well, how do I do that then?
And he's like when your shiftis over, stay, because the more
experienced cooks are going tobe there and follow them, shadow
them and watch them and helpedthem and get better, see how
they're.
You know, and he was absolutelyright.
It was just sitting there going.
Oh yes, I can do four things atonce instead of two, and I can
think through a sequencing ofthis and I think that learning
(22:20):
experience.
What I learned from it was youhave to invest in your own
success.
You can't assume that atraining manual is going to
teach you how to do something.
You have to jump in, get wet,learn and be willing to learn
from others, and I think that isthe best advice.
You're making your owninvestment in yourself and just
about everything in life, andhard work and willingness to
(22:40):
learn has to be right at thecenter of it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
So not everyone has that drive or that interest to
you know, as Carol Dweckmentioned right, there's a fixed
mindset and there is kind ofthe growth mindset.
Right, there's two types.
People that have the growthmindset will do more.
They learn more.
There are all kinds of greatattributes.
Many people have a fixedmindset, right, Kind of that
fatalistic.
I'm here, I'm not going.
(23:04):
How do you make that open toeveryone?
Because you're absolutely right, Learning, growing, it's
working.
That extra half an hour, 45minutes an hour, you know,
spending some time with you know, and reading in your field, and
, like we both do, voraciouslyreading, right?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So you know, how, if someone?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
how do you get someone who may not necessarily
have that interest to do that,or can you?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, I think there's different ways and there's
different personality types and,quite frankly, you know most
organizations like if you'rerunning data analytics, for
example will have some skilledanalysts who want to do that.
They want fixed functions, theywant to be able to execute
against those with excellence,and a lot of times those roles
are needed and they work greatfor folks that have that kind of
(23:50):
orientation.
I think we just try tocelebrate the success, make them
aware that they're contributingto that success.
But I think the other thingthat you can do to stimulate
growth is try to create aninterdisciplinary team structure
and really almost create acoalition of ideas and idea
(24:10):
sharing, if you will.
We call them pods, like in theconsulting group, and we'll pair
an analyst with a strategistwho might be working with
someone else, and they'reworking together to provision
insights, tell the story,reinvent it, and their success
is intended to be a sharedsuccess as they work together
and that pooling of ideas andthat peer review process can do
(24:32):
some stimulation.
I think it becomes a placewhere those two different
mindsets can kind of coexist andperhaps there can be some
stimulation there as well.
Set aside time for employees whosay I'd like to learn more
about this.
Can I do this?
Yes, if I can support atraining course or something
(24:54):
that they want to go take andlearn and improve their skillset
, there ought to be a businessjustification.
But if there is, we ought tosupport it and encourage it and
really celebrate that innovation, because that's what excites
people, and I think culturesthat say you can learn, you can
do more, we're going to give youa chance to fail, but fail
quickly and get better and helpus do something.
Those are the places that keepemployees and that's where
(25:15):
people stay, you know, and Ithink it's exciting to be part
of that culture, or trying tocreate even a better version of
that 100%.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I know it can be difficult, but well, thank you
for that.
When you look at your life, youknow are there some life
lessons that have shaped yourperspective.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Oh, I think there's quite a few.
I mean, like most people, I'vemade many mistakes, I have
failed, and I do believe thatfail stands for first attempt in
learning.
I really do.
But I think a couple of things.
So one I am a cancer survivor.
I had a scare when I hadstarted graduate school with a
tumor.
I had a very bad prognosis forthat particular aggressive tumor
(25:56):
.
I had surgery, I had radiationtherapy and I was on pins and
needles and I think that was acatalyzing event for me in my
life because I looked at thatand I was like you know what?
It's short and there's noguarantees and I can't believe
this happened to me, but it did.
Do what you want to do.
Focus on the here and now.
Don't set things aside.
Pursue your passion and just goafter it and don't be thinking
(26:20):
20 years ahead.
Think about what you want toachieve and just go out and do
it and live and enjoy differentmoments.
And I've tried to bring thatinto my work, I think, as we
move forward, because you knowyou can't set everything off.
If there's travel you want todo, if there's trips, if there's
new skills, if there's a chanceyou want to take it.
You know that's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Looking back, you had a lot of great success.
You know I consider you afriend.
I also consider you a verysmart person.
I love the conversations wehave and finding people, as you
mentioned, that are smarter thanyou or as smart as you to have
informed conversations issomething I love about my job.
I get to talk to very smartpeople about a very smart and
(27:04):
passionate field that we're in,and very often sometimes you
talk to some people.
You get off the phone with theCMO or someone who runs a
company like and passionatefield that we're in, and very
often sometimes you talk to somepeople.
You get off the phone with aCMO or someone who runs a
company like man.
That was a bad conversation,but with you they're always
amazing.
You're very kind.
Yeah, looking back at yourcareer success, what are a
couple of things you're mostproud of?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Oh, you know, I think part.
Well, one of them preceded myinvolvement in loyalty.
I kind of pivoted out ofacademia, you know, and that
probably wasn't a great fit forme.
I love teaching but I'mdefinitely an applied person.
I like to be in the actionsetting, not studying things as
much as doing things that helpinfluence what happens.
And I had a great job withDallas County, texas, and their
(27:43):
juvenile department, and part ofthe physician ended up being
funded by the Annie E CaseyFoundation and we were looking
at racial disproportionality injuvenile confinement and we do
have a real crisis, I think, inlocking young men up and locking
kids up and it does havedisparate tolls and I love that
I got to work for two and a halfyears on that grant with the
(28:06):
Casey Foundation, with DallasCounty, because some of the
things that we were able to dowith data helped change up the
experience and it was reallynerdy and operational.
But some of the reporting andjust looking at the flows, we
were able to dramatically cutthe amount of time that kids who
were placed in detention werein detention, because almost
(28:28):
none of them need to be detained.
Most of them need therapy orhelp or coaching or guidance or
a plan on how to move forward,and I think that they made leaps
and bounds and we saw adramatic reduction in the number
of kids incarcerated and thenumber of kids and then the days
of incarceration for those kids.
I didn't cause that to happen,but I was helping provide the
(28:48):
data that helped inform thedecisions and I think it was
part of something good and I'mvery proud of.
That was one, but I'm reallyproud of it.
I actually left that job to gowork at Briarley and at the time
Briarley was sort of they had areally, really great strategy
team.
The analytics was newer to them.
They didn't really have apredictive modeling practice,
(29:13):
and so I got tasked with sort ofsetting that up and building it
, and I think I was able to dothat pretty quickly and bring it
to scale, and from there I waslucky enough to work with
strategists on program designand eventually lead the strategy
organization as well.
But I think it was takingsomething out of almost nothing
and growing it and nurturing itinto something better.
That was very gratifying, madepossible by working with a great
company and great people.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's awesome.
You know we've talked aboutthis before in the past, but
what is one passion that youhave outside of work?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I love to travel, and I love to travel to new places
preferably, and I love anywherewhere I can take mass transit
and or hike, and I really enjoyhiking.
So I love to go to new marketsand new places and if I'm not
doing that, I'm probably nerdingout and playing video games,
which I also really love.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Excellent, if you go back in time, if you had the
Wayback Machine, you know whatwould be one thing that you
potentially change about yourlife, and what would that be.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Oh, wow, so many things to do and I think I would
take myself if I could go backa little bit and think about my
college experience, for example.
I was certainly involved indifferent activities and did a
little theater, but I think Iwas great obsessed.
I was success obsessed, like Iwould be devastated with a B
plus on a paper and looking backit just seems so trivial, like
(30:30):
really should that have been myfocus?
Some of the nights at 2 am inthe library might have been
better spent with friends anddoing more social things and
learning to enjoy life andbalance even more.
And I think if I could go back,I wouldn't be so obsessed with
things like stamps of approvaland grades.
I would be obsessed with havingmore experiences and meeting
(30:50):
more different types of peopleearlier and diversifying my
experience base.
And that might be true for myeducation as well.
I mean, I went straight fromundergrad into grad school to
get a PhD and didn't even stopto catch my breath.
I should have stopped andworked and then stopped and
traveled and I would havechanged what I studied for sure.
But at the end of the day itall brought me to a good place.
(31:12):
But I think I guess a shortanswer to the long-winded
response to the question thatyou asked is take myself a
little less seriously and justenjoy the moment and enjoy the
work that you're doing and taketime to celebrate it when it
works and embrace opportunities.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
That's awesome If you could bring one change to the
workforce, the workplace.
What would that be and why?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It would be more collaboration and mentoring in
open environments and I do thinkthis is one of the things.
Look, there's debates on bothsides of the work from home,
work for office, hybrid scorebut I think when we create open
structures, like competition isgood and healthy in the
workplace, but hyper-competitiveenvironments are not fun for
(31:59):
many employees and in fact, itcan be paralyzing and
disincentivizing for them whenthey feel like they're competing
against one another.
And the more we can positionfolks to be part of
collaborative teams workingtogether and sharing in success
against common goals and KPIsand OKRs, the better off we're
going to be.
And then maybe your groupbecomes competitive with other
(32:20):
groups to have the best ideas.
But they can also becollaborative and if we're
celebrating success andacknowledging success, that
resonates with folks.
And I think those more open,collaborative solution sets are
going to benefit younger workers, because they are the ones
right now with whom I'm mostconcerned.
They're coming straight out ofcollege or out of high school or
(32:42):
wherever and they're lookingfor guidance.
They don't know exactly how tosucceed and certainly asking
that person to work virtuallyand not be in the presence of
others to look them in the eyeand be able to grab a marker on
a whiteboard.
No matter how good the virtualtools are, it's not the same as
being supported and nurtured ina community, and I think that
communitarian focus and sharedobjectives and a shared sense of
(33:06):
vision if you can set that up,we're going to see people stay
at jobs longer and enjoy thework that they do, and we'll see
lots of people succeeding andgrowing with these companies.
That's the right direction.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
How do you do that in a virtual organization if you
don't have that opportunity?
What can you do to address orassuage some of those challenges
if you have a virtual workforce?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, I think you go in and try as best you can to
have breakout groups, like oneof the things my team we have
some folks that are in differentplaces and we like to do
virtual happy hours.
We like to do virtual Slacksessions because that's one of
the tools that we use, wheresomeone will just be like, hey,
I'm hanging out Anyone got timefor coffee and encouraging
people.
It's okay between meetings tohave a virtual coffee with your
(33:52):
coworkers and doing the samething.
Someone will position a newidea and say I've got two new
slides.
No one needs to prepare forthis meeting, but can I have 15
minutes in a huddle and everyonetell me what they think about
this idea?
And people will join and theywill do that and I think that's
one way to get the juicesflowing and to encourage that
collaboration.
But that alone does not solvethe problem.
(34:13):
I'm seeing with the youngestworkers who need to be, or the
newest workers who need to be,mentored and tutored, and I
think that means we have to havebetter training protocol, we
have to have mentor systems, wehave to have buddies, we have to
have coaches, check-ins,accountability, because you
cannot expect someone to diveinto a role that they've never
(34:33):
done before and succeed.
They have to be coached, theyhave to see examples from others
of what good work looks like,how to improve theirs in
constructive ways, and it justmeans you have to manufacture
more of those opportunities.
But I think the hybrid model ofbringing folks in and making
sure hey, there's a new employeeand she or he gets to be with
the team in the office, even ifit's two days a week, is still a
(34:56):
better solution.
It's the mix of the two.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I think you know it can work either way, but I think
this hybrid solution probablyis on the right track okay when
you look at presentations you'vegiven out, given through the
years at loyalty x billion,what's the most memorable
presentation you've given?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
man, I've done a bunch of them, but I would say
my favorite ones to give are theworkshops, and those are the
most memorable for me because Ithink the feedback's been so
good and they these are not bigthis won't be addressing the
plenary session of 400 people,600 attendees at the expo but I
think these workshops,especially over the last couple
of years, where folks are likewe've done boot camps and
(35:38):
analytics and help folks getready to just go in and really
get tactical about here's theright KPIs, here's the
measurements you should be doing.
Just go in and really gettactical about.
Here's the right KPIs, here'sthe measurements you should be
doing.
And it seems like those arereally resonant.
I can tell because that commentI made earlier about watching
the room and seeing peopleengage when you conduct
workshops, people engage andI've enjoyed those tremendously
(35:58):
because after I've done thosepeople are, you know, sitting up
meetings with you afterwardswanting to discuss more.
There's a lot of organicconversations that occur from
that and I think that's justgratifying and that's the kind
of content people want fromconferences.
We've all been to conferenceswhere it's just hey, here's a
fireside chat and one personinterviews another person, and
(36:19):
that's great if you've got aluminary, and you've certainly
had luminaries on stage.
But I think that has to bebalanced.
Every conference ought to dowhat Loyalty Expo does and give
people a chance to learnsubstantive skills in areas that
they're interested in andreally treat it like a hands-on
workshop where you're going toimpart information.
And those were my favorites todo and I hope I get to do more
(36:42):
in the future.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, looking forward to one coming up in May for
sure.
So thank you.
Yeah, you all do a great joband I think that the interactive
piece and it obviously leads toopportunities, but giving
brands brands want to hear fromthose within the market right,
they want to hear from you andfrom others about what they're
seeing.
They need best practices andit's a great way to subtly put
your thought leadership outthere.
(37:04):
But help them solve a problem.
When you solve the problem, youbecome a guide for them right
and that guide obviously canlead to much more.
So that's great.
It's good fun.
When you look at Lilty360, Iknow you're quite active within
the association.
What do you like about thecommunity?
What would you like to see moreof?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
The more conversations, the better.
What I like about the communityno pun intended is the
community, and that's probablymy favorite conference, because
you're at Loyalty Expo andhonestly, I think I feel like I
talk to at least 50 percent ofthe people attending every year.
You know, and I've gotten toknow folks at brands and at
other agencies and providers,and it's that sense of community
(37:47):
and there's idea sharing.
My absolute favorite part ofthat conference, though, mark.
I love the workshops, but myfavorite presentations are the
awards presentations, where thefinalist brands in a category
will have 15 minutes or 20minutes to say here's the
business problem that I wassolving, here's what we did and
put into market, here were theresults.
That is a rarity in today'sconference landscape, where
(38:09):
there's often a lot of smoke andmirrors and brand collateral.
These things are brass tacks,exciting, and I always encourage
clients, you know, go to thisone, because you can sit and
learn so much and it's real, andI think that realness that
exists there is what's bestBrand sharing information with
each other, bouncing ideasaround.
It's very stimulating, it'svery enjoyable, and so I love
(38:33):
those types of presentations and, I think, even more discussions
that you can broker where youput different folks together in
communities of interest to shareideas and to continue that
rising tide of idea sharing andconversation should lift all
boats.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Absolutely.
I agree with thatwholeheartedly and that's one of
the things we're focusing on in25.
We almost finished redoing allof our content strategy types of
content or strategy, like doingthese executive spotlights,
both for the supplier communityand brands, because I think this
is a great opportunity toaddress some of the challenges
you mentioned.
Right.
So, training, getting youngerpeople understanding kind of the
(39:10):
things you should be doing,could be doing, or learning from
your successes and or,potentially, your failures right
, these are meant to be morepersonal and I think that we're
very focused on that.
And bringing people together totalk about different facets of
customer loyalty.
We're very focused on that.
So thank you for your feedbackthere.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Keep going.
And the last question we haveis you know we like to end these
to discuss some words of wisdomyou may have for, you know, the
younger generation who may bein the marketing field and the
customer loyalty professionals,marketing field and the customer
loyalty professionals.
They want to develop themselves, but also looking to develop
some loyalty strategies that canelevate customer experiences
(39:51):
within their brand.
What's a piece or two of adviceyou can give them?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Josh, for that new person or that aspirant that's
coming into the market.
Do something, if you can, thatyou're passionate about, that
you feel will make a difference,and be positive and, I think,
try to find the right fit.
But, in any role that you're in, make a point of surrounding
yourself with as many people aspossible and learning from as
(40:17):
many of your peers andcolleagues as possible.
Ask questions, be humble butalso be inquisitive.
Questions, be humble but alsobe inquisitive and know that
anything that you see or learnthat's in market or standard
practice can always be improved.
And chisel away at that andstart learning and go.
What's one thing I can suggestthat would augment this journey
(40:38):
or make this campaign better ormake these benefits pop and
resonate and suggest it.
Do those things and learn.
Be humble but also innovate andpush a little bit where you can
and really find that balanceand know that if you're feeling
good about the work that you'redoing and at the end of the day
you go home and you're like youknow what, we may have helped
(41:00):
our brand make money, but wealso made a better experience
for customers.
You've done your job and you'reon the right track with
something that you're probablygoing to enjoy for the rest of
your career absolutely well.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Don, thank you very much for taking time to speak
with us today.
Uh, it was one of the bestinterviews I think I've ever had
.
I love your perspective on youknow some of the training
challenges we have, where, uh,you know the challenges with
regard to being virtual, on howto address that and being able
to drive interest within thebrand but also within the
individual.
It's why I like these.
Right, they're not just allfocused on technology and
(41:34):
process and best practices.
It's more practical and in realin that regard.
So yours is one of the bestwe've done Again, one of the
best interviews I've ever had,and that's why I like doing
these, because they're different, right, I can, I'm much more
focused in these.
I enjoy these conversations to,uh, you know, a much deeper
level than I have otherconversations nothing wrong with
the other conversations, rightbut these are, these are just
(41:56):
really cool.
So, thank you no, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you, mark.
It's always, it's always fun totalk to you.
We've had some, uh, some greatand some crazy conversations in
the past.
We have, for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to
listen today.
Today is Executive Spotlight.
Be sure to join us everySaturday for another edition.
Make sure you sign up for ourpodcast series and subscribe to
our YouTube channel.
Until then, have a wonderfulday, thank you.
Good afternoon, good morning.
This is Mark Johnson fromLoyalty360.
I hope everyone's happy, safeand well.
I want to welcome you back toour new interview series, the
Loyalty360 Executive Spotlight.
It's part of our Leaders inCustomer Loyalty series.
In this new series, we featureconversations with some of the
most influential minds drivingsuccess in the most esteemed
(00:24):
customer loyalty programs in themarket today, all of whom are
members of Loyalty360.
Today, we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Don Smith.
He's a chief consulting officerat Capillary.
Welcome, Don.
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with us today.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm doing well, Mark.
How are you Doing well?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
thank, you First off, for those who may not know, can
you tell us a little bit aboutCapillary and your role with
Capillary?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yep.
So Capillary is a leadingmarketing services agency.
It's a full-stack solutionprovider that does everything in
customer loyalty engagementsoup to nuts.
We design programs with a richconsultative experience.
We bring a strategy perspective.
We also have a technologyplatform that enables those it's
(01:09):
a CDP, it's an entire loyaltyplatform to run the program.
We have a communicationssolution and platform as well as
a reward solution for sourcingcatalogs and gifts.
I mean, we really do do it alland we provide back-end
analytics and back-end strategysupport to optimize and improve
those programs.
And Capillary has been aroundfor about 15 years.
(01:31):
Some of the folks who may bewatching this may know Briarley,
and Briarley is the agency fromwhich I come and I've been
there for almost 18 years.
And two years ago Capillarypurchased Briarley and I think
part of that acquisition wasreally focused on bringing our
strategic and consultingperspective with respect to
(01:51):
program design, and so it's beena really great fit.
And we're still Briarley.
We're just a wholly ownedsubsidiary of Capillary and we
really are that globalconsulting arm of the agency and
my role is leading theconsulting practice, which is
advanced analytics, data science, but also strategy, program
(02:12):
design, optimization and all ofour voice of customer research
as well.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So, don, I know we have had a number of
conversations throughout theyears.
You seem to be always on top ofkind of what's next in customer
loyalty.
So what do you think is thenext big trend in customer
loyalty, or what are you mostexcited about as an opportunity
customer loyalty, and how isCapillary preparing for it.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I'll answer it in a way thatsays look, there's a trend and
then there's a couple of trendswithin that trend that get
consumed, Mark, and I think thetrend I'm most excited about is
member choice.
More and more, we're seeingloyalty programs tailored to the
preferences of members andthey're going to be in control,
not just in terms of theirredemption or what they earn
(02:58):
with the program.
They're also going to be incontrol with respect to their
accrual in many respects and theperks that they select and the
benefits, and I think this isexciting.
You're seeing more of this.
But I think the trend thateveryone would have talked about
last year was it'shyper-personalization driven by
AI.
Right, and I've said thisbefore, the problem is we did
(03:19):
not hit that trend.
I mean not we as an industry.
I think we're very hyper butnot personalized enough, and I
think that's where I'm excited,because this notion of choice
for members and letting them bein control of their destiny and
really enjoy the program andhave a reason to stick with the
brand is going to come back tothe level of personalization
(03:40):
that they received, and the moreauthentic it is and the more
data-driven that honors thepromise of the data those
members are sharing, the betterthis is going to work and I
think programs are finallyrealizing that we have to
embrace clienteling as apossibility and start arming the
people who deal with customersand members and letting them be
(04:01):
in the position to delightcustomers and sweeten the pot
and facilitate the experienceand anticipate their need state,
and I think all of those thingsare coming together in a
beautiful way.
That really is the age of thecustomer.
You asked how Capillary ispreparing for it.
Well, we're designing programsthat have all of these features,
but I think most importantly iswe've set aside such a large
(04:23):
portion of our operating budgetjust for AI and product
enhancement, and so we'rebringing in a lot of automation
through AI generative as well asprescriptive and predictive but
we're doing it in the rightways and it's always with the
litmus test of how does thismake this better for the
marketer, how can we serve thecustomer better and how can we
(04:44):
start tailoring, and I thinkwe're really going at that and
we're seeing incremental lifts.
No one has perfected the AIsolution and there's a lot of
noise around AI, but a measuredstrategy and that's what
Capillary has is what are theexperiences I'm going to make
better and really tailoring tothe approach.
That's how we're getting readyto jump in and we're already in
(05:05):
deep and we're just going to getdeeper and better.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That's awesome If you could collaborate with regard
to a customer loyalty programwith any brand or industry to
create a groundbreaking customerloyalty program.
What would that be and why?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It's a good question and I'll answer it like I think
my number one answer is I wantit to be a coalition and ideally
it would be interbrand orintervertical, because I really
do see that the rising tide ofcoalition loyalty can lift all
brand boats if it's engineeredcorrectly and around the world
(05:43):
we're seeing more and moremulti-brand and coalition
designs really proving coming tofruition and delivering on a
promise.
But if I had to pick I mean Iwon't punt on your question If I
had to pick a vertical rightnow where I think loyalty is
underpenetrated and not workingvery well at all, it's
automotive, and less about theautomotive retailers and more
(06:05):
about the dealers, the brandsthat are selling new cars and
new vehicles, and I think that'swhere the opportunity is wide
folded.
We all know it's kind of a salescycle, right, they get you in,
you buy a car and there's a lotof programs out there, but they
really tend to be focused on thenext sale or just generating
(06:25):
the next service visit andgenerating those revenues and
they're not holistic and reallyfacilitating the driving
experience and helping you planout your larger experience as a
driver.
And to me, those programs youknow, and there is a long
purchase cycle If there was apartnership with many other
adjacent brands that fit intothe driver's journey and the
(06:48):
driver's life.
It's just an opportunity to dosomething amazing across the
board with a number of partners,and so I look to that one where
we need the most innovation.
That's clearly one of theverticals for me, and I hope we
see someone step up and justknock it out of the park soon.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
That's awesome.
We had JD Power speak at aconference a number of years ago
seven years ago-ish it was inDallas actually and he just
talked about that industryholistically and how there is
just an agency problem betweenthe manufacturers and the dealer
network.
Right, there's always been thatantagonism there.
They don't have the same goalsand it's a fascinating story and
I'm sure you're very familiarwith that as well.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I am, and I mean, I just think there's so much
opportunity there becausethere's also a share of garage.
You know, conversation, thatneeds to happen, and just
because you've sold one vehiclein a household doesn't mean you
don't have the right to winanother, you know, and be set up
and also be prepared fortrade-ins.
There's all sorts of things.
We should be incentivizing testdrives.
We should be incentivizingregular maintenance and, yes,
(07:48):
partners have a role to play inthat.
Moving beyond simply theautomobile, because some people,
like me, will keep a car for 10years, you know, yeah, and
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
The incentivated test drives.
I think that's a great idea andI always thought there was an
opportunity to potentially workwith, with the rental companies.
Right, because I bought two ofmy cars based on experiences.
I was looking for a car for mywife.
One year rented an explorer,just the base explorer right,
she loved it.
Got home two weeks later boughther a board explorer, you know
st top of the line because sheloved it.
(08:17):
Right, and same thing.
I go out of camaro.
The same reason.
I bought a somewhat of fastcamaro, loved it and bought the
same car right.
So I think there's a greatopportunity there that's totally
missed because, you're right,it's the experience of test
drive.
Do you like it?
Yeah, I love it.
Ok, boom, let's go buy itAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
All of that can come together, so look to see some
innovation there.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, that'd be great and real quick.
You talk about coalition, andin the US, why is coalition not
taken off?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, I think for a number of reasons.
One we have mature, sobusinesses love to own their own
program and when you're tryingto get a program off the ground,
a lot of times you know folkswant to own it, they want to get
to critical mass and be incontrol of their brand, their
brand mission, and they want tobuild their own brand equity.
That's very logical and I thinkmany US brands do have the
(09:07):
marketing maturity to pull itoff, which has led everyone to
go no, we can do this and it'sours right.
And I also think where you'velooked at and there are some
exceptions I won't get too deep,but I think the Plenty
Coalition was the big miss thatran on the rails of American
Express and you know wecertainly worked with a major
brand and advised them to leavethat coalition because it wasn't
(09:29):
living up to its promise.
But I think and so that was aburned experience that many
folks felt, because Plentydefinitely benefited some of the
hero brands but it didn't domuch for the other brands that
were occupying sort of secondarystatus within that program.
And for a coalition to work,there needs to be adjacencies
(09:50):
and complementary positioningwhere any brand can find a way
to be an acquisition vehicle foranother brand in a way that
helps everyone, and that'sreally what good coalition has
to do, and, at the end of theday, the journeys that are
created across those brands haveto feel authentic around things
that consumers want.
And so plenty, I think,definitely left a bad taste in
(10:12):
folks' mouth because it fizzledout so quickly.
But I also think we have a lotof marketing maturity that
exists with US corporations thatlets them think they can get to
scale and many of them do andwant to stay in control of their
own brand equity.
When you move to Europe and youlook at like you talk about a
coalition, like Nectar, forexample, well, my goodness, it's
(10:33):
sticky, you know no punintended, and it's done
something very, very smart withthose brands, and many of them
probably couldn't pull off aloyalty program at scale.
The countries aren't as large,they don't have as many
locations, right, and so thispooling of resources in a
collaborative effort works alittle bit better.
I mean, there's still herobrands within that coalition,
(10:55):
but I think it's brands comingtogether because they don't have
the scale, whereas in the US,some of our biggest brands have
a huge footprint and have a hugeorganization, and so scale
probably plays a role into ittoo.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Excellent.
In your opinion, what is thesingle biggest factor that
drives a solid, great customerexperience?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, I think a great customer experience is a
function of planning whatcustomers want to have a great
experience and I think there aresome prerequisites to that.
For sure, and we can't.
So getting it right from aservice and delivery perspective
which isn't always the role ofloyalty, right, but just things
like competent employees do whatyou say you're gonna do,
(11:38):
deliver a high quality productand service.
Those are prerequisites forprograms to work as best they
can, you know, and do theblocking and tackling.
But for us, when we think aboutengineering customer experiences
, we've stood in the shoes ofthe consumer or the customer and
we're donning the mental mantleof the customer.
We're talking to them in focusgroups, we're talking to them in
(12:00):
IDIs, we're bouncing theirfeedback off of customer panels
and asking where is a frictionpoint where customers stub their
toe?
How can we rise up at areal-time inflection point and
potentially solve it or make itbetter?
Right, and where are placeswhere folks would love to get
something or a benefit, a perkor just some help from a brand?
(12:21):
And if the theory is right andyou identify the places where
you can take a bad experience ora mediocre experience and make
it great, those are the placeswe start focusing our efforts.
Right is trying to find that,but you have to research them
ahead of time and if you'regoing to keep them and make them
work, you also have to dofinancial modeling on that and
(12:41):
make sure that we're notprescribing too much or doing
something that becomes dilutiveor breaks the bank.
We want to deliver meaningfulexperiences, high perceived
value benefits, but do it in avery responsible way so that it
can get traction and besustained.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Excellent.
And where did you attendcollege?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
For undergraduate I went to a small liberal arts
college, St Andrews PresbyterianCollege.
It's now become St AndrewsUniversity.
That's in North Carolina, and Idid grad school at Florida
State.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, excellent.
And Don, what was your firstjob after college?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So I graduated from Florida and I was an academic
and so I started out as acollege professor.
My very first job at a gradschool was teaching at Rice
University.
It was a one-year teachingappointment, you know, because
someone was on maternity leaveand they'll hire you for one
year and Rice is a pretty goodschool and I sort of stepped in
and taught classes and it was awonderful experience.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Excellent.
What is one thing you rememberfrom that job?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
What I remember about this job was I sat down the
first days and, like Ricestudents if you haven't heard,
rice is really a gem of auniversity and the quality of
the undergraduate students theysource is fantastic.
And I remember being in theseclasses and I taught other
classes before through graduateschool with the same material
(14:04):
and the quality of thediscussion and thinking that we
got was absolutely amazing.
And I think one of the things Ikind of learned from that was
wow, it's a really.
There were students in thatroom much smarter than me.
I mean, I remember my firstseminar and people were just
shooting a little talk overlunch and I started probing like
(14:25):
what were your SAT scores?
And about half of them hadperfect SAT scores, which I did.
These were just smart kids, youknow.
And one of the things abouthaving people smart people
smarter than you, quite franklyaround you it's not a threat,
it's an elevation.
It lifted the quality of thediscussion.
It helped me prepare better andrethink how I was positioning
(14:48):
materials.
It made me a better and rethinkhow I was positioning materials
.
It made me a better teacher,and that's a lesson I think
people need to learn in theworkplace too, anytime that you
get the privilege of workingwith people who are smarter than
you or can teach you somethingin a given area.
It's a blessing and you shouldembrace it.
I really believe that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
No, I think it's absolutely great.
I'm not sure if you've read it,but over the weekend the whole
controversy about DeepSeek rightand kind of how it was funded,
how it maybe went through someloopholes with the chips and
what have you.
But you know, supposedly theyworked with a very young and
very smart team and obviouslythe gentleman had some models
(15:27):
that he'd used from financialinvesting and they were like 24,
25, 26 year old, but very smartpeople and they said have at it
, versus people who are moreinto like work patterns, right,
30, 40, 50, you do thingscertain way or not.
So it was a very interestingdiscussion how they did what you
just mentioned right, used verysmart people, that kind of
rethought the whole process.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I completely agree and I think this whole
positioning I remember.
There's this notion of a boywith a hammer, right, and the
story goes you give a boy ahammer and he'll decide that
everything he encountersrequires hammering.
And I think sometimes we becomelittle boys with hammers in our
professions if we go.
But I've always builtpredictive models this way and
(16:12):
identified next best actionsthis way and set up my A-B test
this way, and I think opening itup and going look, everything
is open for disruption andimprovement really does
democratize the process, andstrong businesses have to be
willing to do that.
It's one of the things I loveabout Capillary is that we're
constantly doing thesehackathons within the company.
(16:33):
Hey, let's solve a differentproblem.
Take one of our tools and seeif you can make it better.
Can you map one new experienceinto that?
And they'll have these weekendlong contests and developers and
others will get together andwrite user stories and come up
with new solutions.
And that's how you startchanging the narrative and
making the tools work harder.
It's being willing to leteveryone into the process and
(16:54):
not having any third rails thatyou can't touch of how you do
things.
Honestly, it's how we designloyalty programs.
Just today we did an internalfocus group for a potential
client.
We brought our employees whouse the product into groups and
asked their opinions and saidwhat would you change if you
could change how these programsoperate and if you could change
the retail experience?
And they told us and you getideas that you never would have
(17:21):
gotten before.
When you do that changedinnovation and energy and also
channeling it in a productivemanner that can be
operationalized, can befinancially responsible and,
quite frankly, can be morallyethical as well.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Excellent.
So, looking back on your firstjob, what was something you
learned as a professor that hastranslated into your career and
customer loyalty yeah, I thinkthe one thing you learn as a
professor.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
In fact, I remember giving my first lecture in
graduate school to a large classand it didn't quite go as I had
planned, and one of thestudents I thought it was
brilliant, I made great examplesand I forgot.
I'm dealing with 18-year-oldsand 19-year-olds.
You know, and you can quicklyread the room and figure out
(18:07):
that things aren't landing andpeople are distracting and not
appreciated and you must coursecorrect.
And I think that this learningis know your audience and always
be paying attention to how yourmessage is received, how your
customers are feeling, how yourclients are feeling, and be
willing to adapt.
And I really do think that weall need to do that.
(18:28):
When you're giving apresentation, it should always
be a discussion with youraudience.
Even when you're on stage atLoyalty360 and there's 500
people in the room, you do needto be looking around and seeing
how your message is landing andif folks are engaging with it
and if not, you may need totailor your approach a little
bit, go deeper with someexamples or move quicker, and I
(18:48):
think that's the art that needsto be there and it really does
speak to how loyalty programsneed to run too.
There's not one voice for everycustomer segment, there's not
one voice for every brand, andyou have to keep working to find
the right voice and the rightmessage and be willing to adapt
to earn that authenticity.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
No, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, one of the challengeswe've always seen within loyalty
360, especially as we've grownthe member side is brands have
challenged truly listening toand understanding their
customers.
Right, they hear in a passive.
I heard this you know all thisnew technology that was supposed
to be the?
You know the secret sauce orthe?
You know that addressed theseopportunities has made it more
(19:28):
challenging, more cumbersome.
Right, you have more data.
How do you make it actionable?
Still that listening to andunderstanding the customer is a
very challenging process and ifyou're listening to them and you
can't do something, even sayingwe can't do this, but tell them
that you appreciate them, so atsome point, as you know,
they'll tune out, they'll quittelling you.
If you're not, you know eitherthanking them or actioning on
that data, correct?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I completely agree with you on both points and I
think the latter one may be evenmore important, like what is
the point of creating apreference center or a
zero-party inventory Tell meyour interests, tell me your
likes, tell me which productsyou need or about your family If
you don't honor the socialcontract of sourcing information
and provisioning the messagingaround it right?
(20:09):
Folks, I still think a lot offolks will share a lot of
information with us if we honorthe social contract and take it
to heart and make a betterexperience for them, you know,
and that means not recommendingthings that are completely out
of their need state, that don'tmake any sense for them, you
know, and trying to think abouttheir journey and map and
experiences and things that'llbe meaningful to them and really
(20:32):
also identify areas where theymight have a friction point and
smooth it over.
Those are the things thatpeople really appreciate and to
facilitate the experiencesbeyond the transaction and
there's still much to do inmodern marketing in that regard.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Looking back, what's the best work advice you've ever
been given?
I was working as a graveyardcook in college at an IHOP and
it was a tough time and prior tothat time I was like any kid.
I'd had a whole bunch ofdifferent jobs in the service
industry to make money.
But I really needed thisgraveyard cook job and it paid
better than most jobs for acollege student did.
(21:14):
It was an owner-operator ofthis franchise and I saw just
how hard this guy worked.
I'd started as a dishwasher.
One of the cooks quit.
They promoted me to cook and itwas taking me a while to
multitask and to learn toprepare all the stuff quickly.
I mean, there's skills.
You have to be able to flipeggs and land them without
breaking up at the same timethat you're dropping batter.
(21:36):
And it may sound ridiculous,but I was very slow in my first
couple of days and on the thirdday the owner came and he said
look, don, it's time to light afire under your butt and improve
your learning curve or get out.
And that may not be verybeautiful advice that would be
on the cover of a book but Ithink it is advice a lot of
times people need to hear, andwhat I realized was I was like
(21:57):
well, how do I do that then?
And he's like when your shiftis over, stay, because the more
experienced cooks are going tobe there and follow them, shadow
them and watch them and helpedthem and get better, see how
they're.
You know, and he was absolutelyright.
It was just sitting there going.
Oh yes, I can do four things atonce instead of two, and I can
think through a sequencing ofthis and I think that learning
(22:20):
experience.
What I learned from it was youhave to invest in your own
success.
You can't assume that atraining manual is going to
teach you how to do something.
You have to jump in, get wet,learn and be willing to learn
from others, and I think that isthe best advice.
You're making your owninvestment in yourself and just
about everything in life, andhard work and willingness to
(22:40):
learn has to be right at thecenter of it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
So not everyone has that drive or that interest to
you know, as Carol Dweckmentioned right, there's a fixed
mindset and there is kind ofthe growth mindset.
Right, there's two types.
People that have the growthmindset will do more.
They learn more.
There are all kinds of greatattributes.
Many people have a fixedmindset, right, Kind of that
fatalistic.
I'm here, I'm not going.
(23:04):
How do you make that open toeveryone?
Because you're absolutely right, Learning, growing, it's
working.
That extra half an hour, 45minutes an hour, you know,
spending some time with you know, and reading in your field, and
, like we both do, voraciouslyreading, right?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So you know, how, if someone?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
how do you get someone who may not necessarily
have that interest to do that,or can you?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, I think there's different ways and there's
different personality types and,quite frankly, you know most
organizations like if you'rerunning data analytics, for
example will have some skilledanalysts who want to do that.
They want fixed functions, theywant to be able to execute
against those with excellence,and a lot of times those roles
are needed and they work greatfor folks that have that kind of
(23:50):
orientation.
I think we just try tocelebrate the success, make them
aware that they're contributingto that success.
But I think the other thingthat you can do to stimulate
growth is try to create aninterdisciplinary team structure
and really almost create acoalition of ideas and idea
(24:10):
sharing, if you will.
We call them pods, like in theconsulting group, and we'll pair
an analyst with a strategistwho might be working with
someone else, and they'reworking together to provision
insights, tell the story,reinvent it, and their success
is intended to be a sharedsuccess as they work together
and that pooling of ideas andthat peer review process can do
(24:32):
some stimulation.
I think it becomes a placewhere those two different
mindsets can kind of coexist andperhaps there can be some
stimulation there as well.
Set aside time for employees whosay I'd like to learn more
about this.
Can I do this?
Yes, if I can support atraining course or something
(24:54):
that they want to go take andlearn and improve their skillset
, there ought to be a businessjustification.
But if there is, we ought tosupport it and encourage it and
really celebrate that innovation, because that's what excites
people, and I think culturesthat say you can learn, you can
do more, we're going to give youa chance to fail, but fail
quickly and get better and helpus do something.
Those are the places that keepemployees and that's where
(25:15):
people stay, you know, and Ithink it's exciting to be part
of that culture, or trying tocreate even a better version of
that 100%.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I know it can be difficult, but well, thank you
for that.
When you look at your life, youknow are there some life
lessons that have shaped yourperspective.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Oh, I think there's quite a few.
I mean, like most people, I'vemade many mistakes, I have
failed, and I do believe thatfail stands for first attempt in
learning.
I really do.
But I think a couple of things.
So one I am a cancer survivor.
I had a scare when I hadstarted graduate school with a
tumor.
I had a very bad prognosis forthat particular aggressive tumor
(25:56):
.
I had surgery, I had radiationtherapy and I was on pins and
needles and I think that was acatalyzing event for me in my
life because I looked at thatand I was like you know what?
It's short and there's noguarantees and I can't believe
this happened to me, but it did.
Do what you want to do.
Focus on the here and now.
Don't set things aside.
Pursue your passion and just goafter it and don't be thinking
(26:20):
20 years ahead.
Think about what you want toachieve and just go out and do
it and live and enjoy differentmoments.
And I've tried to bring thatinto my work, I think, as we
move forward, because you knowyou can't set everything off.
If there's travel you want todo, if there's trips, if there's
new skills, if there's a chanceyou want to take it.
You know that's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Looking back, you had a lot of great success.
You know I consider you afriend.
I also consider you a verysmart person.
I love the conversations wehave and finding people, as you
mentioned, that are smarter thanyou or as smart as you to have
informed conversations issomething I love about my job.
I get to talk to very smartpeople about a very smart and
(27:04):
passionate field that we're in,and very often sometimes you
talk to some people.
You get off the phone with theCMO or someone who runs a
company like and passionatefield that we're in, and very
often sometimes you talk to somepeople.
You get off the phone with aCMO or someone who runs a
company like man.
That was a bad conversation,but with you they're always
amazing.
You're very kind.
Yeah, looking back at yourcareer success, what are a
couple of things you're mostproud of?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Oh, you know, I think part.
Well, one of them preceded myinvolvement in loyalty.
I kind of pivoted out ofacademia, you know, and that
probably wasn't a great fit forme.
I love teaching but I'mdefinitely an applied person.
I like to be in the actionsetting, not studying things as
much as doing things that helpinfluence what happens.
And I had a great job withDallas County, texas, and their
(27:43):
juvenile department, and part ofthe physician ended up being
funded by the Annie E CaseyFoundation and we were looking
at racial disproportionality injuvenile confinement and we do
have a real crisis, I think, inlocking young men up and locking
kids up and it does havedisparate tolls and I love that
I got to work for two and a halfyears on that grant with the
(28:06):
Casey Foundation, with DallasCounty, because some of the
things that we were able to dowith data helped change up the
experience and it was reallynerdy and operational.
But some of the reporting andjust looking at the flows, we
were able to dramatically cutthe amount of time that kids who
were placed in detention werein detention, because almost
(28:28):
none of them need to be detained.
Most of them need therapy orhelp or coaching or guidance or
a plan on how to move forward,and I think that they made leaps
and bounds and we saw adramatic reduction in the number
of kids incarcerated and thenumber of kids and then the days
of incarceration for those kids.
I didn't cause that to happen,but I was helping provide the
(28:48):
data that helped inform thedecisions and I think it was
part of something good and I'mvery proud of.
That was one, but I'm reallyproud of it.
I actually left that job to gowork at Briarley and at the time
Briarley was sort of they had areally, really great strategy
team.
The analytics was newer to them.
They didn't really have apredictive modeling practice,
(29:13):
and so I got tasked with sort ofsetting that up and building it
, and I think I was able to dothat pretty quickly and bring it
to scale, and from there I waslucky enough to work with
strategists on program designand eventually lead the strategy
organization as well.
But I think it was takingsomething out of almost nothing
and growing it and nurturing itinto something better.
That was very gratifying, madepossible by working with a great
company and great people.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's awesome.
You know we've talked aboutthis before in the past, but
what is one passion that youhave outside of work?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
I love to travel, and I love to travel to new places
preferably, and I love anywherewhere I can take mass transit
and or hike, and I really enjoyhiking.
So I love to go to new marketsand new places and if I'm not
doing that, I'm probably nerdingout and playing video games,
which I also really love.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Excellent, if you go back in time, if you had the
Wayback Machine, you know whatwould be one thing that you
potentially change about yourlife, and what would that be.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Oh, wow, so many things to do and I think I would
take myself if I could go backa little bit and think about my
college experience, for example.
I was certainly involved indifferent activities and did a
little theater, but I think Iwas great obsessed.
I was success obsessed, like Iwould be devastated with a B
plus on a paper and looking backit just seems so trivial, like
(30:30):
really should that have been myfocus?
Some of the nights at 2 am inthe library might have been
better spent with friends anddoing more social things and
learning to enjoy life andbalance even more.
And I think if I could go back,I wouldn't be so obsessed with
things like stamps of approvaland grades.
I would be obsessed with havingmore experiences and meeting
(30:50):
more different types of peopleearlier and diversifying my
experience base.
And that might be true for myeducation as well.
I mean, I went straight fromundergrad into grad school to
get a PhD and didn't even stopto catch my breath.
I should have stopped andworked and then stopped and
traveled and I would havechanged what I studied for sure.
But at the end of the day itall brought me to a good place.
(31:12):
But I think I guess a shortanswer to the long-winded
response to the question thatyou asked is take myself a
little less seriously and justenjoy the moment and enjoy the
work that you're doing and taketime to celebrate it when it
works and embrace opportunities.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
That's awesome If you could bring one change to the
workforce, the workplace.
What would that be and why?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It would be more collaboration and mentoring in
open environments and I do thinkthis is one of the things.
Look, there's debates on bothsides of the work from home,
work for office, hybrid scorebut I think when we create open
structures, like competition isgood and healthy in the
workplace, but hyper-competitiveenvironments are not fun for
(31:59):
many employees and in fact, itcan be paralyzing and
disincentivizing for them whenthey feel like they're competing
against one another.
And the more we can positionfolks to be part of
collaborative teams workingtogether and sharing in success
against common goals and KPIsand OKRs, the better off we're
going to be.
And then maybe your groupbecomes competitive with other
(32:20):
groups to have the best ideas.
But they can also becollaborative and if we're
celebrating success andacknowledging success, that
resonates with folks.
And I think those more open,collaborative solution sets are
going to benefit younger workers, because they are the ones
right now with whom I'm mostconcerned.
They're coming straight out ofcollege or out of high school or
(32:42):
wherever and they're lookingfor guidance.
They don't know exactly how tosucceed and certainly asking
that person to work virtuallyand not be in the presence of
others to look them in the eyeand be able to grab a marker on
a whiteboard.
No matter how good the virtualtools are, it's not the same as
being supported and nurtured ina community, and I think that
communitarian focus and sharedobjectives and a shared sense of
(33:06):
vision if you can set that up,we're going to see people stay
at jobs longer and enjoy thework that they do, and we'll see
lots of people succeeding andgrowing with these companies.
That's the right direction.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
How do you do that in a virtual organization if you
don't have that opportunity?
What can you do to address orassuage some of those challenges
if you have a virtual workforce?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, I think you go in and try as best you can to
have breakout groups, like oneof the things my team we have
some folks that are in differentplaces and we like to do
virtual happy hours.
We like to do virtual Slacksessions because that's one of
the tools that we use, wheresomeone will just be like, hey,
I'm hanging out Anyone got timefor coffee and encouraging
people.
It's okay between meetings tohave a virtual coffee with your
(33:52):
coworkers and doing the samething.
Someone will position a newidea and say I've got two new
slides.
No one needs to prepare forthis meeting, but can I have 15
minutes in a huddle and everyonetell me what they think about
this idea?
And people will join and theywill do that and I think that's
one way to get the juicesflowing and to encourage that
collaboration.
But that alone does not solvethe problem.
(34:13):
I'm seeing with the youngestworkers who need to be, or the
newest workers who need to be,mentored and tutored, and I
think that means we have to havebetter training protocol, we
have to have mentor systems, wehave to have buddies, we have to
have coaches, check-ins,accountability, because you
cannot expect someone to diveinto a role that they've never
(34:33):
done before and succeed.
They have to be coached, theyhave to see examples from others
of what good work looks like,how to improve theirs in
constructive ways, and it justmeans you have to manufacture
more of those opportunities.
But I think the hybrid model ofbringing folks in and making
sure hey, there's a new employeeand she or he gets to be with
the team in the office, even ifit's two days a week, is still a
(34:56):
better solution.
It's the mix of the two.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I think you know it can work either way, but I think
this hybrid solution probablyis on the right track okay when
you look at presentations you'vegiven out, given through the
years at loyalty x billion,what's the most memorable
presentation you've given?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
man, I've done a bunch of them, but I would say
my favorite ones to give are theworkshops, and those are the
most memorable for me because Ithink the feedback's been so
good and they these are not bigthis won't be addressing the
plenary session of 400 people,600 attendees at the expo but I
think these workshops,especially over the last couple
of years, where folks are likewe've done boot camps and
(35:38):
analytics and help folks getready to just go in and really
get tactical about here's theright KPIs, here's the
measurements you should be doing.
Just go in and really gettactical about.
Here's the right KPIs, here'sthe measurements you should be
doing.
And it seems like those arereally resonant.
I can tell because that commentI made earlier about watching
the room and seeing peopleengage when you conduct
workshops, people engage andI've enjoyed those tremendously
(35:58):
because after I've done thosepeople are, you know, sitting up
meetings with you afterwardswanting to discuss more.
There's a lot of organicconversations that occur from
that and I think that's justgratifying and that's the kind
of content people want fromconferences.
We've all been to conferenceswhere it's just hey, here's a
fireside chat and one personinterviews another person, and
(36:19):
that's great if you've got aluminary, and you've certainly
had luminaries on stage.
But I think that has to bebalanced.
Every conference ought to dowhat Loyalty Expo does and give
people a chance to learnsubstantive skills in areas that
they're interested in andreally treat it like a hands-on
workshop where you're going toimpart information.
And those were my favorites todo and I hope I get to do more
(36:42):
in the future.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, looking forward to one coming up in May for
sure.
So thank you.
Yeah, you all do a great joband I think that the interactive
piece and it obviously leads toopportunities, but giving
brands brands want to hear fromthose within the market right,
they want to hear from you andfrom others about what they're
seeing.
They need best practices andit's a great way to subtly put
your thought leadership outthere.
(37:04):
But help them solve a problem.
When you solve the problem, youbecome a guide for them right
and that guide obviously canlead to much more.
So that's great.
It's good fun.
When you look at Lilty360, Iknow you're quite active within
the association.
What do you like about thecommunity?
What would you like to see moreof?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
The more conversations, the better.
What I like about the communityno pun intended is the
community, and that's probablymy favorite conference, because
you're at Loyalty Expo andhonestly, I think I feel like I
talk to at least 50 percent ofthe people attending every year.
You know, and I've gotten toknow folks at brands and at
other agencies and providers,and it's that sense of community
(37:47):
and there's idea sharing.
My absolute favorite part ofthat conference, though, mark.
I love the workshops, but myfavorite presentations are the
awards presentations, where thefinalist brands in a category
will have 15 minutes or 20minutes to say here's the
business problem that I wassolving, here's what we did and
put into market, here were theresults.
That is a rarity in today'sconference landscape, where
(38:09):
there's often a lot of smoke andmirrors and brand collateral.
These things are brass tacks,exciting, and I always encourage
clients, you know, go to thisone, because you can sit and
learn so much and it's real, andI think that realness that
exists there is what's bestBrand sharing information with
each other, bouncing ideasaround.
It's very stimulating, it'svery enjoyable, and so I love
(38:33):
those types of presentations and, I think, even more discussions
that you can broker where youput different folks together in
communities of interest to shareideas and to continue that
rising tide of idea sharing andconversation should lift all
boats.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Absolutely.
I agree with thatwholeheartedly and that's one of
the things we're focusing on in25.
We almost finished redoing allof our content strategy types of
content or strategy, like doingthese executive spotlights,
both for the supplier communityand brands, because I think this
is a great opportunity toaddress some of the challenges
you mentioned.
Right.
So, training, getting youngerpeople understanding kind of the
(39:10):
things you should be doing,could be doing, or learning from
your successes and or,potentially, your failures right
, these are meant to be morepersonal and I think that we're
very focused on that.
And bringing people together totalk about different facets of
customer loyalty.
We're very focused on that.
So thank you for your feedbackthere.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Keep going.
And the last question we haveis you know we like to end these
to discuss some words of wisdomyou may have for, you know, the
younger generation who may bein the marketing field and the
customer loyalty professionals,marketing field and the customer
loyalty professionals.
They want to develop themselves, but also looking to develop
some loyalty strategies that canelevate customer experiences
(39:51):
within their brand.
What's a piece or two of adviceyou can give them?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Josh, for that new person or that aspirant that's
coming into the market.
Do something, if you can, thatyou're passionate about, that
you feel will make a difference,and be positive and, I think,
try to find the right fit.
But, in any role that you're in, make a point of surrounding
yourself with as many people aspossible and learning from as
(40:17):
many of your peers andcolleagues as possible.
Ask questions, be humble butalso be inquisitive.
Questions, be humble but alsobe inquisitive and know that
anything that you see or learnthat's in market or standard
practice can always be improved.
And chisel away at that andstart learning and go.
What's one thing I can suggestthat would augment this journey
(40:38):
or make this campaign better ormake these benefits pop and
resonate and suggest it.
Do those things and learn.
Be humble but also innovate andpush a little bit where you can
and really find that balanceand know that if you're feeling
good about the work that you'redoing and at the end of the day
you go home and you're like youknow what, we may have helped
(41:00):
our brand make money, but wealso made a better experience
for customers.
You've done your job and you'reon the right track with
something that you're probablygoing to enjoy for the rest of
your career absolutely well.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Don, thank you very much for taking time to speak
with us today.
Uh, it was one of the bestinterviews I think I've ever had
.
I love your perspective on youknow some of the training
challenges we have, where, uh,you know the challenges with
regard to being virtual, on howto address that and being able
to drive interest within thebrand but also within the
individual.
It's why I like these.
Right, they're not just allfocused on technology and
(41:34):
process and best practices.
It's more practical and in realin that regard.
So yours is one of the bestwe've done Again, one of the
best interviews I've ever had,and that's why I like doing
these, because they're different, right, I can, I'm much more
focused in these.
I enjoy these conversations to,uh, you know, a much deeper
level than I have otherconversations nothing wrong with
the other conversations, rightbut these are, these are just
(41:56):
really cool.
So, thank you no, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you, mark.
It's always, it's always fun totalk to you.
We've had some, uh, some greatand some crazy conversations in
the past.
We have, for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to
listen today.
Today is Executive Spotlight.
Be sure to join us everySaturday for another edition.
Make sure you sign up for ourpodcast series and subscribe to
our YouTube channel.
Until then, have a wonderfulday, thank you.
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