In this edition of Loyalty360's Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Industry Voices, we sat down with Dr. JR Slubowski, Vice President of Consulting and Research Center of Excellence Lead at Kobie, to discuss the state of customer loyalty, the evolution of loyalty strategies, and the frameworks shaping the industry today. With decades of experience and a front-row seat to cross-industry innovation, Dr. Slubowski shared insight into the emotional drivers of loyalty, Kobie’s unique approach to program design, and how brands can rethink the way they cultivate long-term customer relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Good afternoon, good morning.
This is Mark Johnson fromLoyalty360.
I want to welcome you back toanother edition of our Leaders
in Customer Loyalty series.
Today we're going to be doingour Industry Voices podcast.
In these episodes we talk withthe leading agencies, technology
partners and consultants incustomer channel and brand
loyalty about the technologytrends and best practices that
(00:27):
impact the brand's ability todrive unique experiences,
enhance engagement but, mostimportantly, impact customer
loyalty.
Today we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Dr JR Slobowski.
He's the vice president ofconsulting and research at Kobi
Marketing.
Welcome, jr, glad to have youback.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm good, it's great to be here.
Jr, glad to have you back.
How are you?
I'm good, it's great to be here, Mark, Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Thank you very much for taking the time to speak
with us today.
First off, can you tell us abit more about yourself, your
current role at Kobe and alittle bit about your background
?
Great to know.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, sure, absolutely so.
I'm a VP of Consulting Serviceshere at Kobe and I work
predominantly with our financialservices and travel and
hospitality clients, although Idabble in other industries as
well, and I also lead a researchcenter of excellence that
really delivers research-basedconsumer insights all about
loyalty, so that our clients canessentially design and evolve
(01:18):
their loyalty programs in themarket.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, you kind of touched on this a little bit,
but for those who may not knowabout Kobe, can you talk to us
about how Kobe supports abrand's customer loyalty efforts
?
Can you give us a briefoverview of what you do and what
industries do you work in?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
So.
Kobe really works to drive, towork with our clients so that
their programs, that they'rerunning, are driving enterprise
value through loyalty.
So not just in a corner of themarketing department but broadly
across the entire organization,really leveraging loyalty to
drive value and revenue backinto the organization.
So in terms of the industrieswe really work in, we work in
(01:58):
travel and hospitality andfinancial services, as I just
mentioned.
Those are two of the ones thatI tend to work in quite a bit
here at Kobe.
But we also do work in quickservice.
Restaurants, qsr, retail,entertainment, auto and even
some healthcare are among theclients we work with.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Perfect.
One of the things that we liketo get is an understanding of
how people define customerloyalty.
What does customer loyalty meanto you and Kobe?
That's a great question, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Kobe really defines customer loyalty.
What does customer loyalty meanto you and Kobe?
That's a great question.
I think Kobe really definescustomer loyalty as an ongoing
emotional relationship that abrand has with its customers.
We're kind of pioneers in theemotional loyalty space.
Basically, we created a way tomeasure it about 10 years ago.
We've been leveraging thatquite a bit.
So we really focus in and drillon that emotional relationship
(02:46):
that a brand has with itscustomers and that relationship
really focuses on things like awillingness to engage, whether
that be through repeat purchasesor in more non-transactional
ways.
But we really emphasize theimportance of understanding the
emotional drivers of loyalty sothat we can foster a deeper
connection with the customerthrough personalized experiences
(03:07):
, through shared values and moremeaningful interactions.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Okay, yeah, jr, you have a kind of a unique position
within the industry.
You kind of sit front andcenter.
You talk to a number ofdifferent brands and a number of
different industries.
Customer loyalty right now ismore important than it ever has
been.
How would you define thecurrent state of customer
loyalty?
What are more important thanever has been?
How would you define thecurrent state of customer
loyalty?
What are some of the biggestchallenges or opportunities that
you see in the market today?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
So the current state ofcustomer loyalty.
I'm going to be bullish and saythat I'm very optimistic about
it.
So one of the things that Ithink in our heart of loyalty
study this year that we reallylearned is that consumers, even
in a time of uncertainty wherepeople are a little bit
uncertain and uneasy about therate of social, political and
economic change that people arestill looking to the loyalty
(03:52):
programs and finding them as abeacon of trust, and trust is
really critical to driving anemotional connection with a
customer when you're a loyaltyprogram or a loyalty
practitioner.
So, in terms of the state of theloyalty, I'm going to say that
it's pretty positive.
I mean, absolutely we need tobe thinking about doing things
smarter, optimizing thestrategies that we have in the
market today and also howloyalty tends to integrate into
(04:16):
a broader enterprise valueproposition and across the
organization with other groupslike CRM and et cetera.
But I think loyalty is in apretty good spot.
You asked me that question fouror five years ago.
I might have had a differentanswer.
We were in the throes of apandemic, but I think we've
rebounded and I'm going to sayI'm pretty optimistic about
where loyalty is heading.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Excellent.
One of the papers we do everyyear is called the State of
Customer Loyalty Research Paper,where we survey usually around
100 different brands members ofLoyalty360 as to what are they
seeing in customer loyalty,how's their team look?
What technologies orapplications are they looking to
consider for the current year?
In our 2025 State of CustomerLoyalty Paper, we saw that 64%
(05:02):
of brands are interested ineither updating, enhancing or
redoing their customer loyaltyofferings.
When you look at that, what cana brand do?
What are a few things a brandcan do or consider if they're
looking to enhance or updatetheir customer loyalty offerings
?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So that's great.
I think first things first, andI mean Kobe works in this space
with a lot of our clients.
It's one of the things that wedo really well.
But I think first things first,and I mean Kobe works in this
space with a lot of our clients.
It's one of the things that wedo really well.
But I think first things first.
We usually like to talk tobrands about understanding,
trying to keep it as simple aspossible, what we call the three
Cs right.
So it starts with understandingtheir customers, either through
deeper analytics around thedata that they're already
collecting or through marketresearch or, in some cases, both
(05:40):
, so that they can begin to makesure they're mapping the right
strategies and the rightevolutionary strategies to the
members and meeting them wherethey're at.
The second C is reallyunderstanding their company.
Especially if your company is abit larger, there's likely a
lot of stakeholders, a lot ofsilos, and we often go through a
process in the beginning stagesof our consulting, of a
consulting project, where weactually do a lot of discovery
(06:03):
interviews, and one of thethings we really do with that is
we want to begin to understandhow aligned the stakeholders in
the organization are around whatloyalty can really do for them.
So I think, as you're thinkingabout optimizing and evolving,
that's a quick hit thing thatyou might want to just shore up
right out of the gate to makesure that people are on the same
page.
In a lot of cases we find a lotof misalignment.
So then we engage in workshopsand strategies to make sure
(06:26):
we're gathering all perspectivesthat we can and then zeroing in
on here's what we think loyaltyis going to be able to
accomplish into the future forus.
And then the third C iscompetitive climate.
I guess that's two Cs, but thethird stage is a competitive
climate.
One of the things we also haveis a loyalty assessment tool
where we look at over 200 brandsin the industry.
(06:46):
We regularly assess them on anongoing basis and we really do
that.
It's a hefty lift when it comesto work, but we really do that
so that we can keep our fingeron the pulse with what's
happening cross-vertically inthe industries that we serve, so
that we can help identify wherethose white space opportunities
are.
Where can we go when it comesto your next evolutionary step
(07:07):
with your program, knowing, ofcourse, that sometimes that next
step will come from outside ofyour industry, at least in terms
of what you need to implementand integrate as part of the
strategy.
So we really like to take thatapproach.
But I think if you startticking off those three C's and
start exploring them, at leaston a beginning stages level, it
can set you up for success asyou work to optimize and evolve
(07:28):
the program.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, During the most recent Loyalty Expo, the 2025
Loyalty Expo, you had apresentation discussing loyalty
biodynamics.
Can you explain this frameworkand how it potentially reshapes
the way brands should bethinking about integrating
co-brands, fee-based models andpartnerships into their customer
loyalty offering?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, so, absolutely so.
Biodynamic loyalty it'sactually based on a term from
the 1920s.
It's an agricultural termbiodynamic farming and the
reason why I started to look fora new term for that is because
we kind of feel, like at Kobehere, that ecosystems is maybe a
bit I don't know if it's a bitoverused or almost a little bit
(08:11):
cliche at this point, and italso doesn't quite describe what
I think we need to do.
I think ecosystems can happenby accident.
In fact, a lot of the loyaltypractitioners that might be
listening to this are probablythinking like yeah, I know, I've
got legacy systems in place,I've got things that we've
always done, that nobody'squestioned, that are part of our
loyalty program.
That's when ecosystems tend tojust sort of evolve without a
(08:34):
real focal point or without areal purpose.
And so we looked into what elsecould we call it?
Because we felt like we wantedto make sure to bring back in
that deliberateness, thatintentionality and really that
holistic set of inputs that weneed to consider when we evolve
a program.
And we settled on biodynamicsbecause that's again an
agricultural term, so it'srelated.
(08:54):
But all biodynamic systems areecosystems, but not all
ecosystems are biodynamic.
And so, extending the analogyover to loyalty, what we really
see is, especially with thoseprogram elements that might be
considered outside the corethings like partnerships or
co-brands or even some fee-basedstructures within the context
of a broader program when youreally think about those things,
(09:15):
those are the things that havethe greatest risk of just kind
of being bolted on without anyreal forethought given to
exactly how they fit into thebroader loyalty strategy, and
then what you end up actuallydoing is operating two loyalty
systems or three loyalty systemsinstead of having a real
integrated approach.
So when we talk about taking abiodynamic approach to loyalty,
it's all about taking intoconsideration all of the inputs
(09:37):
in a very holistic way and theybeing deliberate and intentional
about the strategy that you'regoing forward with, focused on
delivering, you know, an amazing, amazing set of outputs, you
know, and keeping the set ofoutputs limited as well.
So because it's when you thinkabout biodynamics, it's all
about getting the land andfarming to produce the best
possible crop that it can, wekind of see that as really
(10:00):
analogous to what we're tryingto do as loyalty marketers.
It's about taking in a wholehost of inputs and then actually
really utilizing those inputsto be really focused deliberate
about the outputs we want todrive.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Okay, in the newest Kobe research project, your
heart of loyalty research paper,you discuss the idea of an
extreme loyalist with 59% ofthose People who are extreme
loyal are spending 20% more thanthe average consumer and 27%
are spending more than 50% thanthe average customer is Very
important kind of in this era ofeconomic uncertainty.
(10:35):
You know how should brands belooking to cultivate
relationships with theirextremely loyal customers?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah.
So I think the first step whenyou're looking at extreme
loyalists is to work to identifythem, and I think a lot of
brands probably need to do a bitof work there to try to figure
out who they might be,recognizing that often that
equation, or often thedefinition, is about more than
just what they're spending.
So how are you using otherbehavioral data to be able to
(11:03):
understand who they might be inyour membership base, things
that aren't associated?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
with transactions.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
What data are you collecting, and maybe a zero
party data kind of way thatcould potentially even clue you
into your extreme loyalists areyou might?
Once they're identified, then Ithink you can start to offer up
opportunities to engage withthem more and get them to engage
others who aren't already inthe program.
So purchase, of course, is oneof the best indicators, after
the fact, to be able to look atas well, but there's also
(11:29):
customer events.
We know that extreme loyaliststend to be really, really eager
to refer and to defend a brand,especially when that brand faces
negative criticism.
You might look at participationin online forums.
In fact, some even said thatthey'd get a tattoo on their
bodies of a brand that they wereextremely loyal to, and I don't
(11:49):
know that we need to go thatfar, but I think that that's
something that we absolutely canlook at.
When it comes to trying tounderstand who those extreme
loyalists might be within thebase, and the way we really
looked at it is, we looked at itacross six main attributes.
So we basically took the studyaround brand love, which is a
Julia Batra and Bagozi, I think,2013,.
(12:11):
I want to say it was a study andwe basically took some of the
factors that emerged from thatstudy and essentially designed a
little bit of a quick tool tobe able to assess it on our own
front, and we were able toutilize that to be able to gain
an understanding of what kindsof behaviors people would
exhibit.
But we looked at consumer brandfit, desire, identity whether or
not you shopping there sayssomething about you the degree
(12:33):
to which they like or love thebrand, the degree to which that
they'll buy the brand even whenit's not convenient, and then an
overall commitment to the brand.
So that's really what weassessed when we looked at
extreme loyalists to try tounderstand the behaviors and the
kinds of attitudes that theyhave, and so that's one of the
ways that you might be able toassess them, maybe in a zero
party way, but at the end of theday, if you can begin to try to
(12:54):
understand who they are, eitherby the behaviors they exhibit
or by the data that you'recollecting about them, it gives
you an ample opportunity totarget some strategies at those
particular audiences that canfurther grow your business,
either through getting more outof them or through them
potentially bringing new peopleinto the fold.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Okay.
Also in that study it discussedand kind of showed that 70% of
respondents agreed that they aremore comfortable sharing data
if they are in the loyaltyprogram and the respective
brands sharing data if they arein the loyalty program.
In respect to brands, how canloyalty programs develop trust
between the customer and thebrand, the brand and the
(13:34):
audience, in such an effectiveway?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, it's a good question and I alluded to this
earlier in one of my responsesto your questions, but I was
actually I mean, I've been inthe loyalty industry for well
over 26 years and I was reallypleased to see that stat come
out of the study this year.
It really signaled to me that,as a loyalty marketer, loyalty
programs are getting it donewhen it comes to making the
(13:59):
program the absolute best andright place for collecting data
about members, especially in azero party way.
On top of that 70% stat, 80%said that they have strong
confidence that loyalty programswill keep their data secure and
safe.
So when you factor that into ageneral sort of general feeling
of distrust that I think theconsumers sometimes have with
(14:21):
companies, the fact that loyaltyprogram stats are that high is
again just signaling thatthere's an incredible
opportunity for loyalty programsto be able to collect that kind
of information.
That's the notion that we talka lot about emotional loyalty
and the notion of sharing thatdata.
It is emotional, so sharing isemotional when it comes to the
data that we might ask for.
(14:42):
So, but in terms of what we maybe able to do, so we have a
strong foundation of trust.
We've established that.
So what do loyalty programsneed to do beyond that?
Well, I think it's.
It comes down really to twothings to sort of make sure that
the equation that they gothrough in their head when they
make the decision to sharereally lands on the side of
sharing.
The first is being transparentabout why the data is needed and
(15:07):
acting on that data quickly,and so the notion of show don't
tell applies here.
Right, so you can tell a personoh, I need that piece of
information because I'm going todo X.
But if you never do it, that'sgoing to create a little bit of
skepticism from that person andthey might not share information
about themselves later.
So you need to show the memberhow you use that information in
(15:28):
an obvious way.
And then the other piece isreally around consumer control.
Giving them some control overwhat data is shared and with
whom is crucial as well, andgiving that consumer the control
is really critical, because ifyou don't and they feel like
they're a little bit out ofcontrol with the information or
they don't have control over it,one of the compensatory control
(15:50):
strategies that they'll beginto use is they'll build walls up
around it in their brains andit'll be incredibly difficult to
try to get through thosebarriers in order to get that
kind of information.
So those are some strategies, Ithink, that really really point
to the need to do that and toreally bring zero party data
into the fold.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Okay, we saw in the 2025 state of customer loyalty
paper that 43% of respondentsmentioned collecting data, the
right customer data, and beingable to attribute it to that
customer as kind of one of thebiggest challenges of the normal
, the most significant orbiggest challenge they had with
regard to customer data.
(16:31):
You know, are there specificmetrics or data points that
brands should focus on to createa more impactful customer
experience opportunity?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So that's, that was a really good question and that's
something that I know we'vebeen wrestling with here at Kobe
.
And I think the data pointsthey tend to vary by industry
and I think they tend to vary byprogram.
So I'm not sure that there'slike a silver bullet lining that
we could go with that.
But one of the things I wouldreally advise on is that you
should focus on the informationconsumers are more willing to
(17:02):
share.
So that's where I would say todraw your focus.
So find out what consumers arewilling to share and then focus
your energy there.
We actually found in the heartof loyalty study that a really
low percentage of customers, insome cases under 10, were
willing to share informationlike information across apps or
app usage data or internetbrowsing history.
(17:22):
And yet the clients that Italked to and the marketers that
I talked to are investingsignificant resources and trying
to get that data.
And it begs the question what ifyou redirected all of those
resources toward just trying tocollect the information that
consumers are way more willingto share?
So the answer is is you'd getto a point where you could
collect things like informationabout their hobbies or their
(17:43):
shopping habits or even theirlocation.
That would produce basically avariable goldmine of data that
could feed not only your loyaltyprogram and its efforts to have
the loyalty program become abright, shining star and a
beacon of information for themas they want to try to drive
(18:04):
their strategy forward andbasically vary the customer
experience and the levels ofengagement among customers.
So I, so I would say I don'tknow that.
There's one key metric.
I think part of it is findingout what your consumers are
willing to provide by askingthem and then working really
hard to redirect resources totry and to gather that from as
many as many consumers and asmany customers as you can.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Great, and what do you?
What is Kobe thinking is thenext big thing in customer
loyalty?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I would be remiss if I didn't say AI.
Ai is probably something that'son a lot of people's minds at
the moment, and I think it'sreally interesting because we've
kind of reached that placewhere we're starting to see much
more clearly, and it's cominginto much more focus, how AI can
begin to benefit consumers andthe interactions that we offer
to our clients, but also, ingeneral, just trying to figure
(19:03):
out how to use AI in moreeffective ways to make us even
more efficient in terms of ourown operations.
I mean, I think information iseasier to get now than ever
before because it's not just aninformation dump, it's actually
an organized set of informationthat comes back to you when you
think about some of the LLMsthat are out there and that just
really works to reduce yourcognitive load.
(19:25):
And then there's some of thenewer developments, like a
Nogentic AI, for instance, thatcan go the next step and take an
action based on what'suncovered.
So it really has the capacity,I think, to materially impact
the way consumers experienceloyalty programs and loyalty in
general with the brands thatthey love, experience loyalty
programs and loyalty in generalwith the brands that they love.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Okay, to wrap this up , any closing bits of advice or
thoughts?
What's next for Kobe as wecontinue to move forward through
2025?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, so I always have closing thoughts, but the
biggest thing that I think thisyear, that the heart of loyalty
highlighted for me was thenotion that as loyalty marketers
, again we're sitting in areally good place and I think we
have an immense opportunity.
We have the trust of consumersto willing to share information
with us, even in times whenthey're uncertain and a little
bit uneasy.
But with that trust comes, Ithink, comes, great power right.
(20:15):
So I would, I would love to seeloyalty markers and
organizations have as their ownpersonal challenge start to
really elevate the loyaltystrategy up the chain so that
they can begin to leverage thestrength that it brings to the
organization in a lot morepositive ways and in terms of
what is next for Kobe, we'refocused on having those kinds of
conversations with our clientsabsolutely.
(20:36):
I mentioned already we arefocused on some new innovations
in the AI space, looking at waysto use AI to both understand
emotional loyalty better and todrive it, but we're also
hyper-focused on understandingthe consumer landscape as it
changes so that again, we canreact with the best strategy-led
, technology-enabled solutionsin the industry.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Okay, great.
Well, JR, thanks for theconversation.
It was great speaking with youand getting some detail on kind
of, let's say, the customerloyalty and what you're seeing.
You guys always have a uniquepulse on the industry, so thank
you for sharing Sure absolutely.
And now we have our wonderfulquickfire round of questions.
I'd like to keep it to a fewword or short phrase.
(21:19):
Answers to the video will be agood time.
If you look at your work life,how would you describe your work
life?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Manageable chaos.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
If you have a day or a week off from work, what are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I just installed a new pool, so I'm probably
relaxing by the pool with abeverage in my hand.
I think that would be awonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
There we go.
If you could live in any city,in any country, where would you
live?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I have so many favorite cities, but I will say
that this week it's probablylet's go Charleston or New
Orleans.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Okay, if you go back to school, what would you study?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I have been back to school a lot in my life, Uh, so
if I ever tried to do it again,the people that care about me
would probably murder me.
Uh, but, uh, but.
If I were to go back, uh, Iwould hands down.
I would study wine, so it's apassion of mine.
Uh, yeah.
I would I would go study onology, so okay great.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Is there a facet of your job that you would like to
know maybe a little bit lessabout?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
A little bit less about definitely the mundane
administrative stuff.
I can appreciate doing it whenI'm absolutely brain dead, but
most of the time that's not theday, that's not where my head's
at on any given day when I haveto do it.
So some of the mundaneadministrative stuff, for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
What motivates?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
you when tackling challenges at Kobe, the ability
to engage with, I think, one ofthe smartest teams in the
industry.
I've worked at a lot of loyaltycompanies and the people here
at Kobe have a natural curiosityand a natural intelligence that
makes collaboration easy to thepoint where I don't think there
isn't a challenge we can'tovercome.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And we skipped a question here.
What facet of your job wouldyou like to know, maybe a little
bit more about?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well, I'd actually love to know what makes loyalty
marketers tick themselves and,perhaps even more importantly,
some of the organizationalhurdles that they face.
It's been a minute since I'vebeen on the client side, so I'd
love to get a little bit moreknowledge around that to help
them navigate it as theirtrusted partner.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Okay, and what do you draw inspiration from?
Kind, of, what lights your fire?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Knowledge.
I mean, I know lifelong learneris kind of a cliche term, but
it really does apply.
So anything that really stokesmy curiosity and allows me to
tap into learning really, reallyinspires me.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Okay, and do you have a favorite sport or hobby?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So I love to play tennis.
I'm a tennis player, I playedin college.
I obviously love wine, as Ialready alluded to, and, along
with that, cooking, food,entertaining, and I would be
remiss if I didn't mention mytwo great Pyrenees.
I have two great big fluffywhite dogs that are some of my
favorite.
Tend to accompany me on myfavorite pastimes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Okay, great JR thank you very much for taking the
time to speak with us today.
It was great getting to know alittle bit more about you, but
also hearing more about how Kobecontinues to set the bar in
regard to how they areaddressing the opportunities for
brands in customer channel andbrand loyalty, and we look
forward to learning more fromyou and the team throughout the
remainder of 2025.
So thank you.
(24:27):
Excellent, and I also want tothank everyone for tuning in to
our Industry Voices podcast.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to our Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast andfollow Loyalty360 on YouTube and
LinkedIn.
The links are provided below.
Until then, have a wonderfulday.
Good afternoon, good morning.
This is Mark Johnson fromLoyalty360.
I want to welcome you back toanother edition of our Leaders
in Customer Loyalty series.
Today we're going to be doingour Industry Voices podcast.
In these episodes we talk withthe leading agencies, technology
partners and consultants incustomer channel and brand
loyalty about the technologytrends and best practices that
(00:27):
impact the brand's ability todrive unique experiences,
enhance engagement but, mostimportantly, impact customer
loyalty.
Today we have the pleasure ofspeaking with Dr JR Slobowski.
He's the vice president ofconsulting and research at Kobi
Marketing.
Welcome, jr, glad to have youback.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm good, it's great to be here.
Jr, glad to have you back.
How are you?
I'm good, it's great to be here, Mark, Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Thank you very much for taking the time to speak
with us today.
First off, can you tell us abit more about yourself, your
current role at Kobe and alittle bit about your background
?
Great to know.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, sure, absolutely so.
I'm a VP of Consulting Serviceshere at Kobe and I work
predominantly with our financialservices and travel and
hospitality clients, although Idabble in other industries as
well, and I also lead a researchcenter of excellence that
really delivers research-basedconsumer insights all about
loyalty, so that our clients canessentially design and evolve
(01:18):
their loyalty programs in themarket.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Okay, you kind of touched on this a little bit,
but for those who may not knowabout Kobe, can you talk to us
about how Kobe supports abrand's customer loyalty efforts
?
Can you give us a briefoverview of what you do and what
industries do you work in?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
So.
Kobe really works to drive, towork with our clients so that
their programs, that they'rerunning, are driving enterprise
value through loyalty.
So not just in a corner of themarketing department but broadly
across the entire organization,really leveraging loyalty to
drive value and revenue backinto the organization.
So in terms of the industrieswe really work in, we work in
(01:58):
travel and hospitality andfinancial services, as I just
mentioned.
Those are two of the ones thatI tend to work in quite a bit
here at Kobe.
But we also do work in quickservice.
Restaurants, qsr, retail,entertainment, auto and even
some healthcare are among theclients we work with.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Perfect.
One of the things that we liketo get is an understanding of
how people define customerloyalty.
What does customer loyalty meanto you and Kobe?
That's a great question, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Kobe really defines customer loyalty.
What does customer loyalty meanto you and Kobe?
That's a great question.
I think Kobe really definescustomer loyalty as an ongoing
emotional relationship that abrand has with its customers.
We're kind of pioneers in theemotional loyalty space.
Basically, we created a way tomeasure it about 10 years ago.
We've been leveraging thatquite a bit.
So we really focus in and drillon that emotional relationship
(02:46):
that a brand has with itscustomers and that relationship
really focuses on things like awillingness to engage, whether
that be through repeat purchasesor in more non-transactional
ways.
But we really emphasize theimportance of understanding the
emotional drivers of loyalty sothat we can foster a deeper
connection with the customerthrough personalized experiences
(03:07):
, through shared values and moremeaningful interactions.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Okay, yeah, jr, you have a kind of a unique position
within the industry.
You kind of sit front andcenter.
You talk to a number ofdifferent brands and a number of
different industries.
Customer loyalty right now ismore important than it ever has
been.
How would you define thecurrent state of customer
loyalty?
What are more important thanever has been?
How would you define thecurrent state of customer
loyalty?
What are some of the biggestchallenges or opportunities that
you see in the market today?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
So the current state ofcustomer loyalty.
I'm going to be bullish and saythat I'm very optimistic about
it.
So one of the things that Ithink in our heart of loyalty
study this year that we reallylearned is that consumers, even
in a time of uncertainty wherepeople are a little bit
uncertain and uneasy about therate of social, political and
economic change that people arestill looking to the loyalty
(03:52):
programs and finding them as abeacon of trust, and trust is
really critical to driving anemotional connection with a
customer when you're a loyaltyprogram or a loyalty
practitioner.
So, in terms of the state of theloyalty, I'm going to say that
it's pretty positive.
I mean, absolutely we need tobe thinking about doing things
smarter, optimizing thestrategies that we have in the
market today and also howloyalty tends to integrate into
(04:16):
a broader enterprise valueproposition and across the
organization with other groupslike CRM and et cetera.
But I think loyalty is in apretty good spot.
You asked me that question fouror five years ago.
I might have had a differentanswer.
We were in the throes of apandemic, but I think we've
rebounded and I'm going to sayI'm pretty optimistic about
where loyalty is heading.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Excellent.
One of the papers we do everyyear is called the State of
Customer Loyalty Research Paper,where we survey usually around
100 different brands members ofLoyalty360 as to what are they
seeing in customer loyalty,how's their team look?
What technologies orapplications are they looking to
consider for the current year?
In our 2025 State of CustomerLoyalty Paper, we saw that 64%
(05:02):
of brands are interested ineither updating, enhancing or
redoing their customer loyaltyofferings.
When you look at that, what cana brand do?
What are a few things a brandcan do or consider if they're
looking to enhance or updatetheir customer loyalty offerings
?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So that's great.
I think first things first, andI mean Kobe works in this space
with a lot of our clients.
It's one of the things that wedo really well.
But I think first things first,and I mean Kobe works in this
space with a lot of our clients.
It's one of the things that wedo really well.
But I think first things first.
We usually like to talk tobrands about understanding,
trying to keep it as simple aspossible, what we call the three
Cs right.
So it starts with understandingtheir customers, either through
deeper analytics around thedata that they're already
collecting or through marketresearch or, in some cases, both
(05:40):
, so that they can begin to makesure they're mapping the right
strategies and the rightevolutionary strategies to the
members and meeting them wherethey're at.
The second C is reallyunderstanding their company.
Especially if your company is abit larger, there's likely a
lot of stakeholders, a lot ofsilos, and we often go through a
process in the beginning stagesof our consulting, of a
consulting project, where weactually do a lot of discovery
(06:03):
interviews, and one of thethings we really do with that is
we want to begin to understandhow aligned the stakeholders in
the organization are around whatloyalty can really do for them.
So I think, as you're thinkingabout optimizing and evolving,
that's a quick hit thing thatyou might want to just shore up
right out of the gate to makesure that people are on the same
page.
In a lot of cases we find a lotof misalignment.
So then we engage in workshopsand strategies to make sure
(06:26):
we're gathering all perspectivesthat we can and then zeroing in
on here's what we think loyaltyis going to be able to
accomplish into the future forus.
And then the third C iscompetitive climate.
I guess that's two Cs, but thethird stage is a competitive
climate.
One of the things we also haveis a loyalty assessment tool
where we look at over 200 brandsin the industry.
(06:46):
We regularly assess them on anongoing basis and we really do
that.
It's a hefty lift when it comesto work, but we really do that
so that we can keep our fingeron the pulse with what's
happening cross-vertically inthe industries that we serve, so
that we can help identify wherethose white space opportunities
are.
Where can we go when it comesto your next evolutionary step
(07:07):
with your program, knowing, ofcourse, that sometimes that next
step will come from outside ofyour industry, at least in terms
of what you need to implementand integrate as part of the
strategy.
So we really like to take thatapproach.
But I think if you startticking off those three C's and
start exploring them, at leaston a beginning stages level, it
can set you up for success asyou work to optimize and evolve
(07:28):
the program.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, During the most recent Loyalty Expo, the 2025
Loyalty Expo, you had apresentation discussing loyalty
biodynamics.
Can you explain this frameworkand how it potentially reshapes
the way brands should bethinking about integrating
co-brands, fee-based models andpartnerships into their customer
loyalty offering?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, so, absolutely so.
Biodynamic loyalty it'sactually based on a term from
the 1920s.
It's an agricultural termbiodynamic farming and the
reason why I started to look fora new term for that is because
we kind of feel, like at Kobehere, that ecosystems is maybe a
bit I don't know if it's a bitoverused or almost a little bit
(08:11):
cliche at this point, and italso doesn't quite describe what
I think we need to do.
I think ecosystems can happenby accident.
In fact, a lot of the loyaltypractitioners that might be
listening to this are probablythinking like yeah, I know, I've
got legacy systems in place,I've got things that we've
always done, that nobody'squestioned, that are part of our
loyalty program.
That's when ecosystems tend tojust sort of evolve without a
(08:34):
real focal point or without areal purpose.
And so we looked into what elsecould we call it?
Because we felt like we wantedto make sure to bring back in
that deliberateness, thatintentionality and really that
holistic set of inputs that weneed to consider when we evolve
a program.
And we settled on biodynamicsbecause that's again an
agricultural term, so it'srelated.
(08:54):
But all biodynamic systems areecosystems, but not all
ecosystems are biodynamic.
And so, extending the analogyover to loyalty, what we really
see is, especially with thoseprogram elements that might be
considered outside the corethings like partnerships or
co-brands or even some fee-basedstructures within the context
of a broader program when youreally think about those things,
(09:15):
those are the things that havethe greatest risk of just kind
of being bolted on without anyreal forethought given to
exactly how they fit into thebroader loyalty strategy, and
then what you end up actuallydoing is operating two loyalty
systems or three loyalty systemsinstead of having a real
integrated approach.
So when we talk about taking abiodynamic approach to loyalty,
it's all about taking intoconsideration all of the inputs
(09:37):
in a very holistic way and theybeing deliberate and intentional
about the strategy that you'regoing forward with, focused on
delivering, you know, an amazing, amazing set of outputs, you
know, and keeping the set ofoutputs limited as well.
So because it's when you thinkabout biodynamics, it's all
about getting the land andfarming to produce the best
possible crop that it can, wekind of see that as really
(10:00):
analogous to what we're tryingto do as loyalty marketers.
It's about taking in a wholehost of inputs and then actually
really utilizing those inputsto be really focused deliberate
about the outputs we want todrive.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Okay, in the newest Kobe research project, your
heart of loyalty research paper,you discuss the idea of an
extreme loyalist with 59% ofthose People who are extreme
loyal are spending 20% more thanthe average consumer and 27%
are spending more than 50% thanthe average customer is Very
important kind of in this era ofeconomic uncertainty.
(10:35):
You know how should brands belooking to cultivate
relationships with theirextremely loyal customers?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah.
So I think the first step whenyou're looking at extreme
loyalists is to work to identifythem, and I think a lot of
brands probably need to do a bitof work there to try to figure
out who they might be,recognizing that often that
equation, or often thedefinition, is about more than
just what they're spending.
So how are you using otherbehavioral data to be able to
(11:03):
understand who they might be inyour membership base, things
that aren't associated?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
with transactions.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
What data are you collecting, and maybe a zero
party data kind of way thatcould potentially even clue you
into your extreme loyalists areyou might?
Once they're identified, then Ithink you can start to offer up
opportunities to engage withthem more and get them to engage
others who aren't already inthe program.
So purchase, of course, is oneof the best indicators, after
the fact, to be able to look atas well, but there's also
(11:29):
customer events.
We know that extreme loyaliststend to be really, really eager
to refer and to defend a brand,especially when that brand faces
negative criticism.
You might look at participationin online forums.
In fact, some even said thatthey'd get a tattoo on their
bodies of a brand that they wereextremely loyal to, and I don't
(11:49):
know that we need to go thatfar, but I think that that's
something that we absolutely canlook at.
When it comes to trying tounderstand who those extreme
loyalists might be within thebase, and the way we really
looked at it is, we looked at itacross six main attributes.
So we basically took the studyaround brand love, which is a
Julia Batra and Bagozi, I think,2013,.
(12:11):
I want to say it was a study andwe basically took some of the
factors that emerged from thatstudy and essentially designed a
little bit of a quick tool tobe able to assess it on our own
front, and we were able toutilize that to be able to gain
an understanding of what kindsof behaviors people would
exhibit.
But we looked at consumer brandfit, desire, identity whether or
not you shopping there sayssomething about you the degree
(12:33):
to which they like or love thebrand, the degree to which that
they'll buy the brand even whenit's not convenient, and then an
overall commitment to the brand.
So that's really what weassessed when we looked at
extreme loyalists to try tounderstand the behaviors and the
kinds of attitudes that theyhave, and so that's one of the
ways that you might be able toassess them, maybe in a zero
party way, but at the end of theday, if you can begin to try to
(12:54):
understand who they are, eitherby the behaviors they exhibit
or by the data that you'recollecting about them, it gives
you an ample opportunity totarget some strategies at those
particular audiences that canfurther grow your business,
either through getting more outof them or through them
potentially bringing new peopleinto the fold.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Okay.
Also in that study it discussedand kind of showed that 70% of
respondents agreed that they aremore comfortable sharing data
if they are in the loyaltyprogram and the respective
brands sharing data if they arein the loyalty program.
In respect to brands, how canloyalty programs develop trust
between the customer and thebrand, the brand and the
(13:34):
audience, in such an effectiveway?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, it's a good question and I alluded to this
earlier in one of my responsesto your questions, but I was
actually I mean, I've been inthe loyalty industry for well
over 26 years and I was reallypleased to see that stat come
out of the study this year.
It really signaled to me that,as a loyalty marketer, loyalty
programs are getting it donewhen it comes to making the
(13:59):
program the absolute best andright place for collecting data
about members, especially in azero party way.
On top of that 70% stat, 80%said that they have strong
confidence that loyalty programswill keep their data secure and
safe.
So when you factor that into ageneral sort of general feeling
of distrust that I think theconsumers sometimes have with
(14:21):
companies, the fact that loyaltyprogram stats are that high is
again just signaling thatthere's an incredible
opportunity for loyalty programsto be able to collect that kind
of information.
That's the notion that we talka lot about emotional loyalty
and the notion of sharing thatdata.
It is emotional, so sharing isemotional when it comes to the
data that we might ask for.
(14:42):
So, but in terms of what we maybe able to do, so we have a
strong foundation of trust.
We've established that.
So what do loyalty programsneed to do beyond that?
Well, I think it's.
It comes down really to twothings to sort of make sure that
the equation that they gothrough in their head when they
make the decision to sharereally lands on the side of
sharing.
The first is being transparentabout why the data is needed and
(15:07):
acting on that data quickly,and so the notion of show don't
tell applies here.
Right, so you can tell a personoh, I need that piece of
information because I'm going todo X.
But if you never do it, that'sgoing to create a little bit of
skepticism from that person andthey might not share information
about themselves later.
So you need to show the memberhow you use that information in
(15:28):
an obvious way.
And then the other piece isreally around consumer control.
Giving them some control overwhat data is shared and with
whom is crucial as well, andgiving that consumer the control
is really critical, because ifyou don't and they feel like
they're a little bit out ofcontrol with the information or
they don't have control over it,one of the compensatory control
(15:50):
strategies that they'll beginto use is they'll build walls up
around it in their brains andit'll be incredibly difficult to
try to get through thosebarriers in order to get that
kind of information.
So those are some strategies, Ithink, that really really point
to the need to do that and toreally bring zero party data
into the fold.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Okay, we saw in the 2025 state of customer loyalty
paper that 43% of respondentsmentioned collecting data, the
right customer data, and beingable to attribute it to that
customer as kind of one of thebiggest challenges of the normal
, the most significant orbiggest challenge they had with
regard to customer data.
(16:31):
You know, are there specificmetrics or data points that
brands should focus on to createa more impactful customer
experience opportunity?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So that's, that was a really good question and that's
something that I know we'vebeen wrestling with here at Kobe
.
And I think the data pointsthey tend to vary by industry
and I think they tend to vary byprogram.
So I'm not sure that there'slike a silver bullet lining that
we could go with that.
But one of the things I wouldreally advise on is that you
should focus on the informationconsumers are more willing to
(17:02):
share.
So that's where I would say todraw your focus.
So find out what consumers arewilling to share and then focus
your energy there.
We actually found in the heartof loyalty study that a really
low percentage of customers, insome cases under 10, were
willing to share informationlike information across apps or
app usage data or internetbrowsing history.
(17:22):
And yet the clients that Italked to and the marketers that
I talked to are investingsignificant resources and trying
to get that data.
And it begs the question what ifyou redirected all of those
resources toward just trying tocollect the information that
consumers are way more willingto share?
So the answer is is you'd getto a point where you could
collect things like informationabout their hobbies or their
(17:43):
shopping habits or even theirlocation.
That would produce basically avariable goldmine of data that
could feed not only your loyaltyprogram and its efforts to have
the loyalty program become abright, shining star and a
beacon of information for themas they want to try to drive
(18:04):
their strategy forward andbasically vary the customer
experience and the levels ofengagement among customers.
So I, so I would say I don'tknow that.
There's one key metric.
I think part of it is findingout what your consumers are
willing to provide by askingthem and then working really
hard to redirect resources totry and to gather that from as
many as many consumers and asmany customers as you can.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Great, and what do you?
What is Kobe thinking is thenext big thing in customer
loyalty?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I would be remiss if I didn't say AI.
Ai is probably something that'son a lot of people's minds at
the moment, and I think it'sreally interesting because we've
kind of reached that placewhere we're starting to see much
more clearly, and it's cominginto much more focus, how AI can
begin to benefit consumers andthe interactions that we offer
to our clients, but also, ingeneral, just trying to figure
(19:03):
out how to use AI in moreeffective ways to make us even
more efficient in terms of ourown operations.
I mean, I think information iseasier to get now than ever
before because it's not just aninformation dump, it's actually
an organized set of informationthat comes back to you when you
think about some of the LLMsthat are out there and that just
really works to reduce yourcognitive load.
(19:25):
And then there's some of thenewer developments, like a
Nogentic AI, for instance, thatcan go the next step and take an
action based on what'suncovered.
So it really has the capacity,I think, to materially impact
the way consumers experienceloyalty programs and loyalty in
general with the brands thatthey love, experience loyalty
programs and loyalty in generalwith the brands that they love.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Okay, to wrap this up , any closing bits of advice or
thoughts?
What's next for Kobe as wecontinue to move forward through
2025?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, so I always have closing thoughts, but the
biggest thing that I think thisyear, that the heart of loyalty
highlighted for me was thenotion that as loyalty marketers
, again we're sitting in areally good place and I think we
have an immense opportunity.
We have the trust of consumersto willing to share information
with us, even in times whenthey're uncertain and a little
bit uneasy.
But with that trust comes, Ithink, comes, great power right.
(20:15):
So I would, I would love to seeloyalty markers and
organizations have as their ownpersonal challenge start to
really elevate the loyaltystrategy up the chain so that
they can begin to leverage thestrength that it brings to the
organization in a lot morepositive ways and in terms of
what is next for Kobe, we'refocused on having those kinds of
conversations with our clientsabsolutely.
(20:36):
I mentioned already we arefocused on some new innovations
in the AI space, looking at waysto use AI to both understand
emotional loyalty better and todrive it, but we're also
hyper-focused on understandingthe consumer landscape as it
changes so that again, we canreact with the best strategy-led
, technology-enabled solutionsin the industry.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Okay, great.
Well, JR, thanks for theconversation.
It was great speaking with youand getting some detail on kind
of, let's say, the customerloyalty and what you're seeing.
You guys always have a uniquepulse on the industry, so thank
you for sharing Sure absolutely.
And now we have our wonderfulquickfire round of questions.
I'd like to keep it to a fewword or short phrase.
(21:19):
Answers to the video will be agood time.
If you look at your work life,how would you describe your work
life?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Manageable chaos.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
If you have a day or a week off from work, what are
you doing?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I just installed a new pool, so I'm probably
relaxing by the pool with abeverage in my hand.
I think that would be awonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
There we go.
If you could live in any city,in any country, where would you
live?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I have so many favorite cities, but I will say
that this week it's probablylet's go Charleston or New
Orleans.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Okay, if you go back to school, what would you study?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I have been back to school a lot in my life, Uh, so
if I ever tried to do it again,the people that care about me
would probably murder me.
Uh, but, uh, but.
If I were to go back, uh, Iwould hands down.
I would study wine, so it's apassion of mine.
Uh, yeah.
I would I would go study onology, so okay great.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Is there a facet of your job that you would like to
know maybe a little bit lessabout?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
A little bit less about definitely the mundane
administrative stuff.
I can appreciate doing it whenI'm absolutely brain dead, but
most of the time that's not theday, that's not where my head's
at on any given day when I haveto do it.
So some of the mundaneadministrative stuff, for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
What motivates?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
you when tackling challenges at Kobe, the ability
to engage with, I think, one ofthe smartest teams in the
industry.
I've worked at a lot of loyaltycompanies and the people here
at Kobe have a natural curiosityand a natural intelligence that
makes collaboration easy to thepoint where I don't think there
isn't a challenge we can'tovercome.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And we skipped a question here.
What facet of your job wouldyou like to know, maybe a little
bit more about?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well, I'd actually love to know what makes loyalty
marketers tick themselves and,perhaps even more importantly,
some of the organizationalhurdles that they face.
It's been a minute since I'vebeen on the client side, so I'd
love to get a little bit moreknowledge around that to help
them navigate it as theirtrusted partner.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Okay, and what do you draw inspiration from?
Kind, of, what lights your fire?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Knowledge.
I mean, I know lifelong learneris kind of a cliche term, but
it really does apply.
So anything that really stokesmy curiosity and allows me to
tap into learning really, reallyinspires me.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Okay, and do you have a favorite sport or hobby?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So I love to play tennis.
I'm a tennis player, I playedin college.
I obviously love wine, as Ialready alluded to, and, along
with that, cooking, food,entertaining, and I would be
remiss if I didn't mention mytwo great Pyrenees.
I have two great big fluffywhite dogs that are some of my
favorite.
Tend to accompany me on myfavorite pastimes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Okay, great JR thank you very much for taking the
time to speak with us today.
It was great getting to know alittle bit more about you, but
also hearing more about how Kobecontinues to set the bar in
regard to how they areaddressing the opportunities for
brands in customer channel andbrand loyalty, and we look
forward to learning more fromyou and the team throughout the
remainder of 2025.
So thank you.
(24:27):
Excellent, and I also want tothank everyone for tuning in to
our Industry Voices podcast.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe to our Leaders in
Customer Loyalty podcast andfollow Loyalty360 on YouTube and
LinkedIn.
The links are provided below.
Until then, have a wonderfulday.
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