Exploring the Leadership Mastery of Pittsburgh Steelers Coach Mike Tomlin

What does it take to fuel the competitive spirit in the NFL? Find out as we dissect the leadership style of Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin with our esteemed guest, Nick Angelo. Together, we explore the significance of Tomlin's approach in setting high standards, his uncanny ability to communicate with impact, and the steadfast commitment he holds towards his team.

Immerse yourself in the fascinating conversation as we delve into the art of consistently maintaining high expectations, fostering continuous growth, and the essential role of accountability in a team's success. We examine how Tomlin's vivid language, metaphors, and analogies strengthen the team's resolve to uphold their standards. You'll be intrigued by our discussion about his use of body language and tone to supplement his message, and his emphasis on building relationships and future opportunities. Come along on this journey of discovery as we dissect Tomlin's tactics in motivating his players, his unique approach to handling excuses, and his power to inspire a culture of success in the Steelers' locker room.

We wrap up our episode with a walk down memory lane, reminiscing the illustrious careers of Steeler greats like Troy Palamalu, Greg Lloyd, Alan Faneca, and ... John Whitman (!!).  The long time friends, Nate and Nick, had a blast recording this episode about their favorite team, and we think you'll enjoy listening just the same.

To hear more of Nick Angelo and his takes on the NFL, fantasy, and so much more, tune in to his podcast, That Football Show!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Quick editor's note this podcast was recorded before
the Steelers week four matchupagainst the Houston Texans, a
game in which they gotabsolutely blasted, 30 to 6,
with another terrible offensiveperformance, with mind boggling
play calling and a defensiveeffort that looked uninspiring.

(00:24):
At best.
They lost to a team that hadfour offensive linemen down that
needed replaced and a rookiequarterback that completely lit
them up.
And had we recorded after, Imight have absolutely gone in on
Mike Tomlin.
I might have talked about thestandard being the standard of

(00:46):
mediocrity, of no playoff winssince 2016,.
How press conferences after thegame said, heck, yeah, we're
going to make changes.
That was a terrible product.
And then, two days later, thosechanges were the attire of
practice uniforms.
I might have gone further in onthe lack of coaching tree and

(01:10):
how inability to select and leadleaders might be causing
organizational failure.
I might have just broken all ofmy ground roles and talked
about Jackson's instead ofactions.
But luckily we recorded beforethe game and I didn't have any
of those deep emotional passionsthat come with a lifelong of

(01:34):
fandom.
So please enjoy the podcast andsome lessons through the career
of Mike Tomlin.
Thanks for tuning in toleadership chalk talk.
It is about time for friendsand longtime listeners of the

(01:55):
show.
I have made my allegiance clear.
I'm a huge Pittsburgh Steelersfan and one of the most quotable
, interesting leaders in all ofsports is the Steelers long time
coach, mike Tomlin.
So it is time to break it down.
To do that, I have my longtimefriend, a key member in the

(02:17):
start of leadership chalk talkwithout him the show would not
exist and co host of thatfootball show.
I have Nick Angelo joining metoday.
Nick welcome, man hey.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Nate, thanks for having me.
This is a dream come true.
Finally, the whole reason why Ihelped you get a podcast just
so you'd asked me to be a guest.
So finally I'm here.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Thanks for coming on.
So to give just a really quickbackground, nick and I have been
friends at high school.
We both went to Penn Statetogether, so have some shared
Penn State love as well and havekept in touch all these years
and are good friends, talksports all the time.
Amongst other things, nick hasbeen doing podcasting for a

(02:59):
while.
So when I decided I wanted togive this whole thing a try, he
was my go to person to how do I,how do I do this thing?
And again, without his help theshow wouldn't exist.
So, attitude of gratitude forNick.
To round out, the other twoground roles that we have, of
course, is actions, notJackson's.

(03:20):
And learn, don't burn.
So we're going to dive intoMike Tomlin in depth, but the
point of this show is not to sayhe's a good leader, a bad
leader, anything in between.
It's to talk about a number ofhis actions and extract key
leadership lessons from that,both good and bad, so that we
can apply them to our day to day.
Alright, nick, let's jump intoit.

(03:41):
So what I wanted to do firstwas give a little bit of
Tomlin's background and just hisnumber of years with Steelers,
kind of record things that aregoing on.
Do you mind sharing some ofthat for us?

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Sure, I mean, mike Tomlin was hired about what?
17 years ago, 17 seasons ago,very the youngest coach to be
hired in the NFL at the timereplacing.
Here's the thing about thePittsburgh Steelers We've had
three coaches in.
I mean, how many in six decades?

(04:20):
Right, like we had Chuck Nullfrom the 60s, I think, and then
he was the coach all the way upto the early 90s and then we got
Bill Cower and then he coachedfor cheese 15 years.
And then we brought on MikeTomlin and it was wild, because
you know, you and I don't knowwhat it's like for other

(04:44):
franchises to have a constantcoaching carousel or even have a
coach on the hot seat.
It's funny.
And Pittsburgh, where theSteelers will lose a game and
people are like, oh, I think itmight be time to fire Tom, like
no, it's not, guys, relax, guysnever had a losing season.
Calm down.
So basically, we bring this guyin to replace two Hall of Fame

(05:05):
legend coaches and so far, sogood.
You know he's coached for 17seasons.
He's never had a losing season.
You know he has.
He played ball.
He actually played college ball, william and Mary against
players that he would eventuallycoach, and then he went on to
be like wide receivers coach andthen defensive backs coach at

(05:27):
Arkansas State and Cincinnati.
Then he got the bump up todefensive backs coach at Tampa
Bay Bucks, who were winningSuper Bowls, and coached Ronde
Barber.
For those who know, he justmade the Hall of Fame.
Then he got the defensivecoordinator gig in Minnesota
with the Vikings for only oneyear and he had such a good buzz

(05:49):
about him that the Steelersscooped them up and man, how
fortuitous that was for thefranchise, because he's been our
head coach ever since.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, thanks for the backdrop, Nick.
To round out the record alittle bit through the 2022
season 163, 93 and 2.
So 636 winning percentage,notably never winning or never
losing season.
There were three, eight andeight seasons.
Won the Super Bowl in 2008 asthe youngest coach to do it, at

(06:20):
age 36, and then lost the SuperBowl in 2010.
That was Aaron Rodgers SuperBowl win.
Overall playoff record eightand nine last playoff win in
2016.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
I'd just like to clarify something there.
Nate, you said it was the AaronRodgers Super Bowl win.
I know it as the RashardMendenhall Super Bowl loss.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
So just wanted to say that, yeah, thanks for cleaning
that up.
All right, so we got about fivekey lessons that we're going to
dive into, nick, and the thingthat you have to start with with
Mike Tomlin is aroundexpectations, clear expectations
, and the phrase that is oftenrepeated and is now in the

(07:03):
Steelers locker room and there'sa Steelers TV show about it is
the standard, is the standard.
He talks all about the standard, so I'm going to play a clip to
start us off where he's talkinga little bit about what that
means and how he sets the clearsof expectation of what their
job is as football operation.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Football is our game, our business is winning and our
intentions are to handlebusiness.
That's what the standard is.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
The standard means every single time I say All
right, football is our game, ourbusiness is winning and we
expect to handle business.
So tell me what you think aboutthis crystal clear expectation
of the standard.
Is the standard.
What does that mean to you?

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, I think the funny part is it's if you really
think about it's not crystalclear, it's kind of open for
interpretation If you really sitand think about it for a while.
I mean, the standard is astandard.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
What is that?
What is the standard?
Well, you're the PittsburghSteelers.
You are one of the winningestfranchises of all time.

(08:09):
Like mentioned before, there'sonly been two coaches before you
.
Really, the bar is setextremely high and that's the
standard.
There is no second place.
You know there is no.
Oh well, at least we got amoral victory.
The standard is the standard.
We are the Pittsburgh Steelers.
You have to go and achieve at acertain level every time you're

(08:32):
out there, and it is a business,you know.
There there's a certain way youhave to carry yourself when
you're on this team.
The character of a player goesso far in that locker room with
Mike Tomlin that that is alsothe standard.
So when he says football is ourgame, our business is winning,

(08:55):
he's talking about two separatestandards and once again, this
is my interpretation, so feelfree to disagree.
But there's two standards there.
It's the level of play whenyou're on the field with the X's
and O's and how you prepare,but then there's also the way
you have to carry yourself as aman off the field, because that
standard is just as high,because that's the business side

(09:18):
of things, and I think MikeTomlin has made it abundantly
clear what type of player he'slooking for.
And, as you know, some playershave hit the door because they
didn't fit one half of thosestandards.
You could be the best widereceiver in the league and set
records, but if you are notdoing the business side of

(09:39):
things, even though business wasbooming and I think you know
who I'm alluding to hey, ab,there's the door because you
didn't fit the standard.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, thanks for breaking that down, nick.
A couple things come to mind.
So, macro level expectation iswinning and winning Super Bowls,
and he doesn't shy away fromthe high bar that that is as a
part of the organization.
I like to say that highperformers like high
expectations.
So if you, as the leader, aresetting mediocre expectations

(10:09):
and you have a bar in the middleof the tier, you're going to
attract people that likemediocrity.
Right, I like that.
He sets a high bar.
The second piece that you'realluding to is there's
individual standards and we havea clip we'll look at later.
But it's this idea that eachplayer, regardless of your third

(10:29):
string, first string orwhatever it is, the expectation
is the same.
And if you are in man coverage,you're expected to cover,
you're expected to make thetackle.
If you have assignment football, you're expected to hit the
assignment.
I like that.
There is a clear expectation ona macro level and on an
individual level, and that'ssomething that we can take back
as leaders.
I'm going to play a clip now ofhim talking at a team meeting,

(10:52):
so this is a clip from that.
Show the standard that theSteelers produce, and it's a
nice way that he is talking inthe off season about what is
expected on an individual level.
So let's take a listen.
This is a little bit of alonger clip, but let's listen in
.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Man in the growth and development of this thing.
Man, I'm talking to you aboutnorms, expectations, mindsets
mindsets that you should have,and it's always good to
acknowledge reasonableexpectations.
I expect you get better in allareas, man, whether it's the
knowledge relative to what it isthat you do, the maintenance

(11:28):
and the preparation of your body, the understanding of the game,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
You need to continually be aguy on the rise.
That is a reasonableexpectation, as opposed to just
coming in here putting in time.
What do I mean by that?
I mean the things that made youviable in the past aren't going

(11:48):
to be the things that make youviable moving forward.
You better be continuallygetting better.
As long as you're sitting inrooms like this, I ain't doing
my job if I'm not pointing thatout.
You guys that have been here andknow what it's about, man, we
expect you to be significantlybetter.
Hear the words you, a young guy.

(12:11):
Man, we might have toleratedmental errors A year ago.
We'll have less tolerance forit moving forward.
It's just a reasonableexpectation.
And so let's just be reallytransparent, man, about
expectations in this business,about how competitive it is.
I never want you worrying aboutpeople on the outside, even the

(12:32):
man sitting next to you.
This is a man versus himselfbattle.
You got to be continuallypressing to get better with that
, understanding that this is ahighly competitive line of work
that we're in.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
All right, Nick, what's your favorite part from
that clip?

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I mean I'm about to run through a wall right now.
I mean I love the fact that heis, you know, obviously setting
the standard, but this is sopersonalized, on a generic level
, if that makes any sense.
Every person in that room wasbeing talked to individually

(13:16):
because the assignment was topersonally get better every day
and that you don't have to worryabout people talking about you
losing your job.
You don't have to look at theguy behind you on depth chart,
you have to worry about the guyin the mirror and if you are not
putting in the work and youknow, once you get to the pro

(13:37):
level and that's the thing aboutMike Tomlin, I think, and I
would love to hear how you wouldkind of relate this to our
everyday business life he is.
He doesn't pretend we're pros,we're all pro ball players here.
We're not going to coddle you,we're not going to pretend that
this is something that it's not.

(13:58):
It is what it is.
And if you aren't, you knowwhat it has, you know what it
takes to get to that level.
Because you got there.
Now you have to maintain andcontinuously get better and
better and better, and if youdon't, then there's then
someone's going to come in andtake your spot, and I think he
doesn't run.
He's what's his, what's hisfavorite.

(14:18):
We don't.
We don't run away, we runtowards it.
And that's one of the classicexamples of that is like if you
aren't getting better, if youaren't the one putting in the
time and the effort and theenergy to make yourself better,
then you're not going to be inthis league much longer and
we're not going to shy away fromthat.
It is what it is.
The standard is the standard100%.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
A couple of things for the leaders out there of how
to bring this into your day today.
I do one on one's weekly, atmost every other week, and I
don't always remember to do this, but if I'm at my best.
I asked my team member at theend of the one on one what's one
thing you learned since we lasttalked.
So there is this expectationamongst my team that you are

(15:00):
going to be acquiring new skillsand that you're going to share
those with me, because it's notokay to stay status quo.
If we're staying the same,we're getting worse.
That whole concept is somethingI try to infuse into the
culture.
There's been times in my careerwhere I've had to help people to
zoom out.
If you're in a company that canbe insular or you have folks

(15:24):
that have tenure, that would belike you're just scrimmaging all
the time and you were theSteelers, but you never played
anyone except in practice.
So the comparison is justamongst the people.
In your room there's only thewide receiver room is five
people deep, or whatever itwould be.
I've at times had to help myteam to understand that we're
not just competing against thepeople in our company.

(15:46):
We're competing against all thepeople in our industry, across
the entire world, acrossindustries.
Those people are grinding,those people are working to
acquire new skills.
If we're just doing what we'vealways done and how we've always
done it, we're being leftbehind.
I think Mike does a really nicejob of making it about

(16:07):
competition, but also making itabout competition about yourself
.
You alluded to that, nick, thatthis is a man versus himself
situation, where you are tryingto compete and you are trying to
get better every day.
If you can infuse that into themindset of your team and they
are acquiring new skills, theywill continue to grow and your
collective group will beat thecompetition.

(16:29):
So that really stands out to me.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, I think it's important to also recognize that
.
We're using the analogy of theNFL and football players, and
it's easy to.
When I say you have to work onyourself and put in the time,
it's like, oh, what's that mean?
Running extra sprints andlifting extra weight and doing
this and watching more film?
Yeah, we all understand that,but how does that make I can't

(16:52):
lift, I can't go to the gym andget better at my job?
That's not how it works.
Well, I think it's alsoimportant to know that when you
aren't in the NFL and you're inthe everyday job and employee or
employer leader or whatever,that means to me that putting in

(17:13):
, putting in the extra work isalso like the willingness to try
new things and the ability toget better and grow.
You will never grow as a person, as an employee, as a leader,
as an artist for those who maynot know, I work in the
entertainment business.

(17:33):
As an artist you have to bewilling to get out of the
complacency.
That is the work, that is theeffort, that's the gym.
Going to trying something newis putting in an extra rep at
the gym, or trying something newis running extra sprints.

(17:56):
That's what that means ineveryday life.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
I love it.
I'll make one comment herethat'll move us on to part two
AI and everything that'shappening with that.
That's an easy thing to be veryafraid of and kind of bury your
head in the sand.
Admittedly, I'm probably one ofthose people that I wish I
could go back 20 years andimagine these things aren't
happening but they are andchallenging yourself to get

(18:22):
better, getting in the gym andreading about it and testing it
out and trying it and jumping onto chat GPT and seeing what
happens.
There's a million things likethat in your job and your
profession that you can try toignore and try not to learn
about, or you can dive in andtry and get ahead of the curve.
Everyone listening, think aboutwhat's one thing that you've

(18:43):
kind of noticed that is anemerging trend or an emerging
thing that's going to beimportant in your industry and
your business that you maybe nothave spent the time to learn
about.
And dive in there and read abook, listen to a podcast, do
something, all right.
Part two he sets thisexpectation that the standard is
the standard, but expectationsare not a set it and forget it

(19:04):
phenomenon.
I first referenced Tomlin inepisode one, which was about
accountability.
In that I make the point thataccountability is not what
people think it is.
It's not about getting peoplein trouble.
Accountability is aboutaligning expectations with
outcomes.
You can't just set anexpectation and then expect it
to happen.
You have to continuallyreinforce it.

(19:25):
And Mike tries to reinforcethings in very colorful, vivid
language and metaphors andanalogies.
I'm going to play the first onehere, a clip of how he
reinforces this expectation dayin and day out.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Don't blink.
If you're a blinker, cut youreyelids off.
This is not going to be for thefaint of heart.
Don't blink, let's go.
Don't blink ever.
Don't blink, ever.
Cut your eyelids off.
Cut your eyelids off.
Here I saw a couple of y'allblinking, though for real.
No, no, no, I'll talk to youabout it.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
All right, so we're not blinking and we're even
cutting our eyelids off, Nick.
What does that mean?
What's?
Going on here.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
It's just it's almost to the point of like.
I think he's taking it a littletoo far, but it's the focus,
it's the you know, don't like ifdo you ever play the game when
you were a kid of you know,flinch, don't flinch, like?
That's kind of what it is Likeif you're about to get punched

(20:33):
in the face.
Lean into it, like, don't blink, don't flinch, don't like cower
away.
Lean into it, like don't infact cut your eyelids off.
If you think you're justautomatically going to do it.
You have to.
You have to be as focused andready to go and take on anything
and everything that's thrown atyou and, head on, like, not

(20:54):
even just like, don't even justbe standing there waiting for it
, go and get it.
Go after and get it.
At least that's what I'minterpreting the phrase of you
know, don't blink, you know,basically, don't flinch, go, go
and get it, go, beat a disrupter, don't get disrupted.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, it's interesting, right.
So instead of saying all thatstuff, he could just say focus,
stay focused, stay focused.
And focus is kind of asubjective in your head thing.
He tries really hard to take thenebulous conceptual concept and
make it extremely practical andprocedural and behavioral.
He's taken this idea of stayfocused and turned it into don't

(21:36):
blink and you can kind ofphysically feel that idea of
like your eyes are open and youkeep them open and you can't
miss anything, you can't flinch,no matter how difficult the
situation is, no matter how muchthe adversity is.
He talks a lot about notletting adversity affect us and
then he just let your point.
He takes it like seven stepsafter that and so cut your

(21:57):
eyelids off so it's impossibleto blink.
And I think that the point ofthat is, if you are having
trouble focusing, do whatever ittakes to force yourself to
focus.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I also think that on the business side of things, a
catchphrase is great.
Don't forget the power ofmarketing.
Having a catchphrase, having aslogan, a logo, a tagline,
anything you can to kind of likereally just give an entire

(22:31):
message with three to five words, I mean that is so important.
It's marketing 101.
In fact, what it is, and here'sa little foreshadowing to the
next episode you and I will doon this show.
Pro Wrestling is a big fan ofcatchphrases.
I mean they print up t-shirtsevery other day for them.
It's because it tells a story,it tells the idea, it tells the

(22:57):
motto in just a quick couplewords and you can really get a
lot across with just a simplephrase.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I got a quick example .
One of the things I've beenpressing as a key objective on
my team is to use data more.
We work in training andleadership development.
It's easy to just roll out aclass and then hope it went well
, maybe do a survey and leave itat that.
And one thing I want the teamto do is to be more data minded

(23:28):
and understand ways in which wecan have insights to how things
are going, how well we'redeveloping people, how well our
changes are being adopted or not, and shout out to Jade and
Julie on my team.
They came up with a slogan datais dope which is a little bit
of a throwback to when you and Igrew up and that was a cool way
to say things.
But data is dope is somethingnow we've repeated.

(23:50):
They've asked me for t-shirtsabout it, but it's a thing that
has been reinforced andthroughout this year, we're nine
, 10 months in and data is moreprevalent in our conversations.
So, to the point of don't blank.
Data is dope.
Whatever that is for you andwhat your objectives are, pull
one out, say it repeated often,put it on a t-shirt, put it on a

(24:13):
screensaver, put it on a flyer,see it, talk about it and
you'll bring it to life.
Expectations are not a set itand forget it paradigm.
They are constant reinforcement.
All right, I am going to playour next clip that we have, so
don't blink is a kind of in themoment right, reminding people
of that expectation, remindingpeople to focus.

(24:35):
There's also the accountabilitypieces.
You have the result and thenyou talk about the result and
how well did the expectationmatch the result?
This is an interesting clipfrom a press conference in the
COVID year of 2020.
The Steelers just beat theRavens, where they had a bunch
of backups.
It was like a weird Wednesdaygame because things got all
moved around, but this took themto an 11 and 0 record, but they

(24:59):
did not play well at all.
Here is Tomlin's pressconference after that game.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
To be bluntly honest, I'm really disappointed in our
performance tonight.
We did enough to win, butthat's all.
It was really junior varsity,to be quite honest with you, and
it was in all three phases.
We couldn't run the balleffectively when we needed to.
We dropped too many significantpasses very catchable, makeable
passes.
We didn't make significantplays in the special teams game.
Our kickoff covers unit wasn'tgood enough.

(25:28):
We turned it all over.
We gave up big plays incritical moments.
On defense Can't have it.
They converted a long run on apossession down before the half
unacceptable.
They had a 70 yard touchdownlate in the game unacceptable.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Okay, unacceptable.
They won the game 1914, but itwas junior varsity.
Nick, what do you take awayfrom that press conference?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Seen pretty angry.
When you get Tom and that firedup for the media, I can only
imagine what it was like in thelocker room.
But what he's doing is he'skeeping the door closed.
He's keeping the seal closed ofexcuses.
You know he doesn't want.
As soon as you open the door andyou allow one excuse to

(26:15):
slippery slope, it starts justpiling up like oh well, you know
it's COVID, or oh, you knowit's a Wednesday, or oh well, we
had our backup in.
It's like it doesn't.
As soon as you, as soon as youallow one excuse, then you allow
them all and he is shuttingthat down immediately.
It does not matter.
And not only is he not shuttingit down, he is going as far as

(26:41):
I don't want to say ridiculing,because he's not, but he's
putting the team on blast Likethis is JV, this was junior
varsity performance, and that isnot acceptable.
And he is just pounding home thefact that what you just did
does not matter the circumstance, it matters the outcome and

(27:07):
it's just.
Yeah, it's one of those pressconference that, like as a fan,
it scared me because it was likeuh-oh, this is, the wheels
might be falling off this 11-0start, and it sure did, but you
got to give him credit.
He saw it coming a mile awayand he stopped it.
He stopped the excuses beforeit could even start.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, I want to dive into the excuses piece because
that's going to be our thirdsegment in a second.
Before we do a couple things Iliked was reinforcing the
expectations and how they werebelow the line.
So he says junior varsity is wedidn't play up to the standard
of professional football team.
He says we couldn't run theball.

(27:50):
So there's a certainexpectation and probably yards
per carry, total yards per gametype of expectation that they
expect to have Dropped passes.
He says things make the routineplays routinely.
That means catching the ballwhen it's thrown to you.
He said that was below.
We fumbled the ball in specialteams Unacceptable.

(28:10):
They had a 70-yard touchdownplay so we were out of position
for that to happen Unacceptable.
He's reinforcing here's what weexpect from you and here's how
we were below the line.
Here's how we were juniorvarsity in those events.
And it's hard to do, but it issometimes one of the most
powerful things you can do issay to one of your employees

(28:33):
that you are not meeting myexpectations on this or this is
below my expectations.
And again, that doesn't meanthat Mike Tomlin's going to cut
that person.
That doesn't mean if you saythis is below my expectations
and allowing a 70-yard touchdown, that you're going to fire
someone, but it does mean thatyou're going to say, hey, what
happened here in thispresentation or in this work

(28:53):
product is below my expectations.
I am here to help you and coachyou get to my expectations, but
I'm not okay with you hangingout below the line.
And being able to say that, andsay that in an authentic way to
your team is the pathway toaccountability, and that's a
super important thing.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Nick, before we go ahead, the one thing I just want
to elaborate on.
That is, mike Tomlin is not oneor he is one to always give
credit where credit is due andhe understands that it's a fight
and it's a battle and that theother team is going to score the
other team.
When there is a special talentcoming into the stadium, that's

(29:33):
another one of his fate.
Into the stadium, you know hewill be Mr Chubb.
Cause of Mr Chubb, because hegives him respect.
He's the best running back inthe league, devonte Adams, or
when he's talking about VaughnMiller and referring to him as a
freak, he's like an alienbecause he's like out of this
world type of talent heunderstands and sets the
expectation of.
These guys across the field arevery good and they're pros as

(29:57):
well.
And to think that they're notgoing to score points or that
they're also not going to begood, that's silly.
You're not going to.
You just can't do that.
You know I'm getting off on atangent, but friend of the show,
zach Phillips.
Him and I used to play highschool football together and our
coaches I'll always rememberthis our coaches told us once

(30:22):
that every offensive play thatwe have is designed to score a
touchdown and yet everydefensive play we have is
designed to shut down the otherteam, and it made Zach's
analytical brain explode.
It was one of the funniestthings like, but that can't work
.
That's not how it works.
They're exact shut up.
You're too smart for this.

(30:43):
But anyway, I'm sorry I'm goingoff on a tangent, but the point
is, is the excuse there is noexcuse that, like you have to
control what you can control,the other team's going to get
theirs, but we are going toprepare because we know how good
they are and that if you aren'tdoing the things that you're
supposed to do, that'sunacceptable.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, it's interesting I didn't play the
clip, but there's a pressconference where reporters
Pittsburgh media was essentiallyasking Tomlin about a player
that had been struggling thatstarted to look better in
practice Right, and I thinktrying to boost that player up,
see some positivity, see on therise and Tomlin's response was

(31:28):
we're evaluated based on what wedo in stadiums.
And then he just stops talkingand that is the expectation is
our business is winning.
We have to win in stadiums.
It doesn't matter if you do amillion things in practice.
If it doesn't translate, itdoesn't count, and that doesn't
mean the preparation andpractice isn't important, but we
are evaluated based on what wedo in stadiums.
And that's again that colorfullanguage to reinforce his

(31:51):
expectations of our businesseswinning.
All right, let's let's piggybackon what you were teeing up
there, Nick, around the excuses.
So part three is how do youhandle excuses and how do you
make that not a part of your dayto day and every leader has
experienced excuses of someoneshowing up late, someone not

(32:14):
meeting your expectations, andif you let them start to make
excuses and then you makeexcuses for them, you're
basically caving your standardsand you're not going to have the
ultimate success that you want.
The first clip I want to playis again from that COVID season
and it's a conversation aroundshifting schedules.
The Steelers were playing ateam that all got COVID, so they

(32:38):
shifted around when the gamewould be in bi-week and
everything.
So let's hear what Mike has tosay around that.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
You know, my opinion does not matter.
We take marching orders fromthe national football league.
We understand that they'reacting in our collective best
interest.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Mike, what is your reaction to potentially playing
13 straight weeks?

Speaker 3 (32:59):
We do not care.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
All right, a very quotable and memeable comment
from Mike.
We do not care, nick.
What can we take from that?

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Once again.
Shut down the excuse as soon asyou.
What do you want them to say?
You know that's the one thingabout the media that I always
love.
You know they're just doingtheir job.
But like, what do you want theseguys to say hey coach, how do
you feel about playing 13 weeks?
I don't know, it's rough.
Can we take a mulligan on thatone?

(33:30):
Who do I got to talk to so wecan get a day off here, like, of
course, and the fact, but thefact that he doesn't.
It's how he says it.
It's three words, four words,it's we do not care, it's not,
he didn't go.
Well, you know the NFL tells uswhat we have to do and

(33:51):
unfortunately, that's just thecircumstances that we've been
dealt.
You know we're going to prepareas hard as we can and we'll do
the best that we can.
No, none of that, none of that.
Hey coach, how do you feelabout playing 13 straight weeks?
We do not care.
Period the end, move on.
Next question.
I mean that to me, it's noteven how and that's a leadership

(34:13):
quality that I think hepossesses that we can all take.
It's knowing what to say, whento say, but how to say it, how
you get your point across.
That means almost more.
You know body language, justyour tone of voice.
It could go the negative waytoo.
You know how many times haveyou been trying to get your team

(34:33):
to do something but you're in abad mood or you're tired and it
just doesn't have the energy.
No one's going to listen to you.
But if you come in and you'reyou're not blinking and you're
the one who's got the energy andyou're like, hey, I don't care,
standard is standard, we'redoing what we got to do.
Your team's going to pick upthat energy, and I think Mike,
tom and probably underrated inthe sense of his ability to drop

(34:58):
these gems that he drops allthe time his catchphrases, if
you will.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
I love that.
You said that.
I think there's a lot ofcoaches in that situation would
have taken the easy way out andsaid something similar to what
you said that you know it'sunfortunate situation we're
going to do.
He makes it crystal clear thatI don't want to hear any of that
and I this hit home for me whenI was prepping for the episode
of a lot of stuff happeningright Return to office.

(35:25):
Changes are happening and Ithink I probably can do a better
job of having more Mike Tomlinlike responses to the situations
that an excuse is a possibilitybecause, to your point, people
are taking their cues from theleader.
So if Tomlin gives an inch ofdoubt or an inch of an excuse to
be made, the players are goingto take that and double and

(35:47):
triple it, and me, as a leaderfor my team, same thing.
If I give a little bit of anexcuse or frustration, they're
going to take that and doubleand triple it.
It's a tough responsibility tobe the leader, but it's the
power to positively influenceothers, get them focused on the
thing that's most important andhelp to drive them forward.

(36:08):
And he extends this idea of notletting things be an excuse all
the time we're recording thisearly in the 2023 season.
After week three, the Steelerswere flying back from Vegas in a
Sunday night game and they hadissues with the plane where they
had to make an emergencylanding in Kansas City.
They got delayed.

(36:28):
They didn't get back toPittsburgh until eight hours
later.
They already had a night game.
You know these weeks in the NFLare so.
There's such a regimen to themthat losing eight hours is a big
deal.
And he made it a point to saywe're not making any excuses
about that.
It's an unfortunate thing thathappened and we move on and he
just cuts it dead at that, andhe does that so many times.

(36:49):
And I think that's one of myfavorite things about him is
that he does not let peopledivert attention to other things
, and I myself want to take thataway and emulate more of that.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Well, that's also because he is a Swifty little
known fact, mike Tomlin big fanof Taylor Swift.
So they decided to stop inKansas City to say hi to her.
But they didn't want that toget out there as an excuse as
well.
So that's, they came up withthe quote unquote plane issues,
but it was just he wanted to sayhi to Taylor Smooth.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Keep that under the radar.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, you know, he's a, he's a smooth operator.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Moving on to part four and you alluded to this a
little bit too, nick clarity inhis words he leaves.
No doubt you talked aboutAntonio Brown.
Business was booming for awhile and then it left town and
he's out of the league, so thereis a certain expectation of the

(37:43):
way players handle themselves.
Another player that left townrecently is Chase Claypole on a
play.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
A quick clip regarding Mr Claypole Mike
Claypole suggested yesterdaythat he needs to.
He would like to have more funat practice, maybe play some
music.
I'm suggesting you're not goingto oblige his request.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, you know, Claypool plays wide out and I'll
let him do that.
I'll formulate the practiceapproach and I think that
division of labor is probablyappropriate.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
It's so good, I love it.
The end he just says the words,stops and then waits for
someone to react and just saysand then he gets up and leaves
the press conference.
Nick, what do you take awayabout that in terms of clarity
that Mike is demonstrating inthat comment?

Speaker 2 (38:39):
That's, this is the.
This is the fine line that Mikealso or, excuse me, Mr Tomlin,
Like I said, I don't know theguy.
He is very clear and preciseand he doesn't skirt around
issues, but he's also verycareful to not ridicule or throw

(39:00):
another man under the bus.
That is one of the.
He is a player's coach.
Everybody wants to play for him.
Everybody respects him becausehe treats everybody like a human
being and a man.
So he could have doggedClaypool there, but he didn't.
But he also.
But he also did.

(39:23):
Does that make sense?
Like he it was a ridiculousthing to say at the time Chase
Claypool was not doing well andkind of had a little bit of an
attitude problem and some offthe field issues.
So you could clearly tell thathe's in the doghouse and when he
has this golden opportunity toreally crush this guy, he

(39:45):
doesn't.
But yet he makes it very clearthat I'm the coach, You're the
wide receiver.
Let's keep it that way.
And it was just clear, concise.
It's like we do not care.
Once again, it's how he said it,how he delivered, that that
really just drove home the factthat I'm not going to listen to

(40:06):
whatever this punk is saying.
And for those who do not know,I had this podcast, that
football show, formerly the RustBelt Rivals.
I was on the anti-ChaseClaypool train when we drafted
him, Was not a fan of this kidfrom day one and he just kept
proving me right and right andright.
By the way, Chicago Bears havenever won a game while Chase

(40:31):
Claypool has been on theirroster Just throwing that little
nugget out there.
But to go back to what Tomlinwas doing, how he said it, he
walked that tightrope ofrespecting the man but keeping
the player in check, and I thinkthat he's one of the best ever
do it in that aspect.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, I'm gonna play a next clip and I want you to
listen to the way he ends theclip for this one, and then I'm
gonna comment on that after.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
Mike, at any point in your coaching career Did you
ever have an interest or expressan interest in being a head
coach in the college game, anddo you have any idea how that
may or may not have led to folkslike Ryan and Doug Whaley and
Carson Palmer connecting you tosome college jobs?

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Hey guys, I don't have time for that speculation.
I mean, that's a joke to me.
I got one of the best jobs andin all of professional sport,
why would I have any interest incoaching college football?
That'll be the last time that Iaddress it, and not only today.
But moving forward never saynever but never.
Okay, anybody else got anyquestions about any.

(41:39):
College jobs is not a boosterwith a big enough blank check.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
All right, he never say never but never and there's
not a booster with a big enoughblank check.
Again, at your company, on yourteam, there is going to be
speculation of things happening.
People are gonna think changesare happening for this reason or
that reason, which is not true.
People were speculating thatMike Tomlin might want to take

(42:16):
the USC job and Go into collegefootball and there were real
reports around it and this isthe first time he was directly
asked about it.
And again, the clarity of leaveno doubt, never, say never but
never, and there is not abooster with a big enough blank
check that then all of theSports media is now commenting

(42:39):
on how precisely he says thatand it completely, completely
went away.
Now there could be situationswhere you're not in a never type
of scenario and there is somepossibility that you're gonna do
this or do that.
But when there's not be asclear as Mike, think around the
clarity of the situation,clarity of what you can say so

(42:59):
that you leave no doubt, and thesound bite that you leave, that
is then gonna be repeatedamongst the rumor mill, the
power of the nugget and thecomment that goes out into the
rumor mill.
You can't Overstate that whenyou're asked a question like
that or when you're oppressed,try to leave something as
powerful as Mike Nick.
What do you got on that?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
I would say, though this is.
This is a perfect example foranyone to To not do what my Tom
and did, because I assure you,as you listen to this podcast,
you are not the head coach ofwanting the winningest
franchises in all of sports.

(43:40):
You do not have one of thegreatest jobs in business.
I'm telling you that right nowI'm sorry folks, I hate the
burst or bubble here and I meannothing by it, but Don't, don't
say never in your job hunt.
Always keep the door open inyour job hunt, and but, with

(44:00):
that being said, what you cantake away from it and what Nate
just said, is Don't burn bridges.
You'd never know who you'retalking to.
You'd never know where thejourney is gonna take you in
five years.
You'd never know that thisopportunity, the you'd never,
you'd never know.
So always act as if that youKeep the door open and you all.

(44:21):
You're always looking for thenext big thing, but you're gonna
need the people behind youright now to help boost you into
that, into that future step.
So don't burn bridges, don'tsay never, and Just you know,
unless you become the head coachof the Pittsburgh Steelers, I'm
assuming you're gonna want tokeep your eyes open and maybe

(44:44):
stay a positive Course in yourjob hunt.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yep, well said, all right.
Moving on to Part five, and I'mactually gonna throw in a part
six to before we get to some funat the end.
Part five is on motivation.
Interestingly, if you look atTomlin's against the spread
record and even his straight-uprecord, he has one of the best

(45:12):
records of all time as anunderdog.
So he gets his players up whenthey are picked to lose, but he
has one of the absolute worstabysmal records of all time when
his team is favored by Morethan a touchdown and especially
when more than 10 points,meaning he lets his team play

(45:32):
down to the level of competitionand for anyone, that's sweat
every stealer game over the lasttwo Decades.
Like Nick and I, they're usedto playing down to bad teams.
So he does something reallyinteresting with motivation.
I have a clip on a plane aminute.
But before I do that, nick,what do you take from how Mike
motivates his players?

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Well, you know, that's a.
It's a little tricky for howyou set this up because, yes, we
play down as a Steelers.
They play down to the level ofthe competition.
So you would think thatobviously he's not doing a good
job motivating, but I say thisall the time when it comes to
getting Men who make millions ofdollars to play a game, he is

(46:20):
the best to ever do it.
It's why he is a good coach.
Now you want to talk about hisability to challenge a call or
cloth management.
I'm sure Nate and I could havea side conversation on that for
hours.
However, when it comes tomotivating grown men To play a

(46:40):
game who already have millionsof dollars in the bank, he is
the best to ever do it, and Ithink it's a.
It's his reputation Is whatgives me comfortability, and
saying that Nick?

Speaker 1 (46:57):
what do you think it is?
What does he do that?
What have you picked up on overthese years?
What are some things that hedoes to motivate men to go above
and beyond?
Well, I think he.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
He Doesn't over motivate, if that's a thing you
know for well.
First, you know I talked aboutit earlier he gives respect to
the team that comes in.
Does not matter if you are theKansas City Chiefs or the
Houston Texans.
You are a professional footballplayer.
You've gotten to this level fora reason you everybody here is
the best of the best and heacknowledges that.

(47:30):
So In his eyes, being afavorite or an underdog doesn't
exist, and I think that isapparent.
When he can, he can go into anystadium and Beat any team, and
go into any stadium and lose toany team, and I think that is
why his record reflects the wayit does is because he doesn't

(47:53):
look at these, these teams, asoh my god, it's Philadelphia
Eagles, oh we better, we betterprepare hard this week.
No, he prepares the same wayevery week because the the
Tennessee Titans and theJacksonville Jaguars and the
Indianapolis Colts Areprofessional football players.
So are the Kansas City Chiefsand the Dallas Cowboys.

(48:14):
So I think that's the reasonwhy he has those records and
that level of respect is whathelps motivate and he makes the
guy, he makes the individualMotivate themselves.
He gives them the tools tomotivate themselves.
And if they don't, then, as wesaid, they'll be out of league

(48:37):
or off the team.
At least, the only time I thinkhe ever Changes things up a
little bit is when it's an AFCNorth rivalry game, because then
it's a little bit of extra, anextra oomph, but that's just.
That's also part of it, part ofthe business of hey, you play
these guys twice a year, everyyear, we know each other a
little bit better.
So, yes, they are different,but everybody else it's.

(49:00):
It's a group of professionalfootball players and I Think,
like I said, I don't know theguy, I've never been in a locker
room.
I can't sit here and say, yes,that's why, but that would be my
theory.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, I think mutual respect.
For sure, he calls AFC Northball the kitchen.
They like the heat of thekitchen, so I always get a
chuckle out of that.
I think he connects withplayers on a really deep level
too.
I'm gonna play a quick clipfrom Ryan Clark.
It's the pivot podcast where heand Mike are talking and this

(49:33):
is related to Ryan Clark playingin Denver, which I can give
more detail on after.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
The last time we was in Denver, man it's dude almost
died right.
We were in the defensive staffroom.
You stopped at the door andtalked to us man.
He looked like he was about ahundred and sixty five pounds.
I was 160 man.
I went to Asherman man, thatwas scary man but I wanted to go
play again.

Speaker 5 (49:55):
I wanted to play in Denver and I had a symbol of
this team together and I waslike we're about to go in this.
I was like I got it.
I was like everything thatyou're telling me, you just got
to go tell Mike team and they'regonna Let me play.
And he stops in the middle andhe says something to me, man,
and I'll always be grateful forhe's like if you were my kid, I
wouldn't be having thisconversation.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
It was my job to care about that dude in that moment,
even maybe more so than hecared about himself.
I got an obligation Tosafeguard to the best of my
ability.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
What do you take from that?
That?
Just a little bit of history.
Ryan Clark had a particularGene that when he was in playing
in Denver he had a very scaryincident.
A couple years later they'replaying in Denver again and he
felt like he got it medicallyfigured out and was all ready to
play and Mike basis said you'renot playing and Explain that
there.
What do you take from thatexchange?

Speaker 2 (50:50):
It's nice to know that.
You know the humanity comesbefore the business.
I also this is this may besilly, but I just like the fact
that he refers to him is I had aresponsibility to take care of
that dude and like he's verycasual, you know, and then I
think that's why the playersrespect him.

(51:11):
He talks to them and about themthe same way.
Like he doesn't put on a front,you know, maybe, maybe when he
knows that the cameras aren'trolling and he's talking about
the New England Patriots, he hasa little bit more colorful
Furby edge as a B once a spiteon him, if you remember that.
But he talks the way he talks.

(51:35):
He is who he is.
The standard is the standardand I think that is a, that clip
as much as like look what, whathe did, it was noble and great
and blah, blah, blah.
But I think a lot of peoplewould have done it like, look,
man, you can't play.
The last time you were here youalmost died.
We're, we're putting yourhealth before the team in the
game, like I think that thatgoes like, yeah, kudos.

(51:55):
But I think a lot of peoplewould have done it.
It's how he talks about it, howhe says it.
It's how he says yeah, I was, Iwas.
You know, I gotta take care ofthat dude.
Like that's his dude, that'shis man, that's his guy.
He's not just number 25, youknow, mr Mr Clark, like it's
that's a guy he sees every day.
You know, he, he's a humanbeing and I think the fact that

(52:20):
Mike tommon Doesn'tdifferentiate between that
sometimes is what makes him sowell loved and respected.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Yeah, you hear a lot of players talk about.
You hear him described as aplayers coach Interestingly
before he was shipped out as aclip of Claypole saying that.
You know, mike asks us aboutour family and he really means
it and not a lot of people takethe time to do that.
So he connects on a deep levelat something we all can do

(52:50):
better at to make you feel like,as Ryan said, like if this was
my son wouldn't have theconversation, and that's how he
makes his players feel.
So I think the motivation toconnect, but the way in which
you say it and how you can talkto someone as if you know they
are on the same level but stillhave the respect of you're the
leader that's the secret sauceand I think he does that really

(53:11):
well.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, remember that.
You know your team are People.
They're human beings.
They have the same.
They have to wake up every dayand go to bed every night.
They have families they haveevery day.
They have to get to work.
They have to go through traffic.
They have to go through, youknow, take the subway to work.
They have to deal withEverything that you're dealing

(53:33):
with on a personal level too,and as much as you want to keep
personal life away from business, don't forget that these are
human beings and not just teammembers.
They're not your team.
They're people that go throughthe same stuff that you go
through, and Probably more so.

(53:53):
I think that's the takeawayfrom this is that you know Mike
Thomas, the coach of thePittsburgh Steelers, and these
are professional athletes thatmake millions of dollars.
There are also men and humansthat have emotions and have to
deal with stuff too, so I thinkthat's the takeaway here.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
All right, pivoting to part six, and this is being a
leader of leaders.
A A difficult transition for alot of people is going from a
frontline leader, where you haveonly Individual contributors
reporting to you, to leader ofleaders, where you lead a team
of leaders that then have eithermore leaders or individual
contributors.
The way to think about that ina sports context in the NFL is

(54:35):
the coordinators right and therest of the staff.
So Tomlin is the leader of thestaff and We've given pretty
glowing, positive remarks aboutMike.
An area that I have questionsabout and the results is his
succession tree, his, hiscoaching tree, and when his

(54:56):
coordinators have gone or not,afterwards, the hires he's made
For anyone paying any attention,even in the national media.
The offensive coordinatorcoordinator right now, matt
Canada, is Heavily under fire,to the point that fire Canada
chance are breaking out in thestadium.
If you look back at hiscoaching tree, really the only

(55:17):
one that's ever gone on to Be ahead coach is Bruce Arians, who
ironically, retired Followinghis stint with the Steelers
because I think they wanted tohave him land softly without
firing him, but then he reallywanted to continue coaching and
eventually became a successfulhead coach and won the Super
Bowl with the Bucks.
Nick, talk to me about Tomlin'scoaching tree and what we can

(55:42):
learn from this in terms of himbeing a leader of leaders.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Well, it's not good.
If you want to look at it thatway, that it's not so much a
tree as it is a weed, I Don'tyou know.
I can Ask me this today at fouro'clock if we lose to the
Texans, I'll have a whole new,whole new take on it.
I Don't you.

(56:08):
I think coaching trees areOverblown sometimes.
I think it's.
I think when they exist,they're awesome.
Well, I think the fact that the, the Mike Shanahan coaching
tree, or the, the Bill Walshcoaching tree, or even the Bella
check coaching tree, like Ithink what that is.

(56:29):
But here's the question I have,though how many of these
coaching trees are actuallysuccessful?
You know a lot of like builtBella checks guys.
They go out, they suck, theyend up going back to college or
they end up becoming acoordinator again for the
Patriots.
You know, being a head coach isnot the guy who was deciding on

(56:51):
what play to call.
You're the, their boss.
You have to make sure thatthey're doing their job.
Being a head coach is so muchmore.
You have to make sure that theplayers are acting accordingly
and that the coaches are actingaccordingly.
You are the, the stop, the gapbetween ownership, the fans, the

(57:13):
media and then everything elsethat goes on in between.
So that is a skill set that Idon't know a lot of people have,
and that just because you're agood offensive coordinator Does
not mean that you're going tosucceed as a leader, being a
brainiac and knowing and beingable to to call plays.

(57:33):
That's why, like Sean McVeigh,he's the offensive coordinator,
don't get it twisted.
He's the one calling the plays.
I don't know if he's the oneleading the team.
He is the guy that's got the,the, the photogenic memory and
blah, blah, blah.
Like I Don't, I don't, I don'tknow the answer to this, because
the fact there isn't anyone isIs concerning, but I also think

(57:56):
that maybe coaching trees are alittle bit overblown.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Yeah, thanks for the perspective, Nick.
A couple thoughts I have onthis.
The one thing I think is reallyinteresting is if I was one of
those brainiac Coordinators thatknew all the X's and O's but
had a hard time relating toplayers and being a players
coach and doing these Likeclarity of expectations and all

(58:22):
the stuff that we've praisedMike for, I would think that
going to work under Mike wouldbe the best developmental
opportunity.
So a name I'll throw out we'retalking about the Raiders before
.
Josh McDaniels had his stint inDenver, start out strong, then
went back to the coordinator ofNew England and he is missing
that element of the pressconference and relating to

(58:44):
players.
I Wonder why Mike has neverAttracted that up-and-coming,
really smart, brainiac type ofcoordinator that needs rounded
out in his people skills in anarea that he could develop the
most.
And so that if I were to giveMike feedback, I would ask him
to think really hard about that,think really hard about the way

(59:06):
he Promotes coordinators.
I think sometimes he is loyalto a fault where he wants to
promote from within.
He wants to give people asecond and third chance, and I
think that is Sometimes at thedetriment of the collective, of
the organization, his loyalty toindividuals.
So I do think there's somethingthere.

(59:26):
I think if you are in a leaderof leader Situations, you got to
think about the diversity ofthe team.
You got to think about whereyour skill set might Complement
and support the people thatreport to you and be really
clear on what you're gonna beable to coach and develop them
on, and they'd be really clearon the skills that they have
that you don't have, that youare going to kind of bolster up

(59:46):
and Nurture and allow to supportthe team.
So there's there's a lot packedinto that.
I don't want to go too deep onthis podcast, but leader of
leaders is a key skill and Ithink there's some nuggets we
can learn from how Mike hasapproached it.
Nick, anything else to addthere?

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Not without getting too, you know, into it.
But you know, you said JoshMcDaniels and I would counter
with like he's the guy in chargeof an offense led by the
greatest coach of all time inthe greatest quarterback of our
time.
How hard could that be?
You know, no kidding, he's notgood at a head coach.
He's not had, he hasn't had todo anything.
You know, tom Brady, you'regonna go to feel all right, go

(01:00:26):
do whatever you do.
Anyway, I'm I'm half kidding,but yeah.
So I think I just think theidea, especially NFL
Coordinators and head coaches.
I mean, there's not that manyof them.
There's 32 head coaches in theworld In the NFL, and half of
them are constantly looking attheir job opportunities because
they're about to get fired.

(01:00:46):
So I think, before we startsaying who's a good coach and
who's a bad coach, realize thatthere's not that many good
coaches, just ever, at any givenmoment, at any time.
So that's something to thinkabout.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
All right, I'm gonna recap our six key lessons.
Starts with expectations.
Mike does an amazing job ofbeing transparent about the
expectations.
He then the second thing wetalked about was reinforcing
that and accountability and Talkabout when people are hitting
it, when they're not rewardingand punishing in the right way.
Talking about it.

(01:01:22):
That's a super important thing.
Part three was the excuses.
We played the clip of we do notcare, so killing off excuses
immediately.
When you do that as a leader,your team will follow suit.
Part four was clarity oflanguage.
Right, so he talked about thedivision of labor with clay pole
and how there's not a bigenough booster with a blank
check to Attract him to go to acollege job and, lastly, are so.

(01:01:48):
Fifth, we talked aboutmotivation and what he did with
Ryan Clark and how he treatspeople like people.
And, lastly, we just wrapped upwith some Leader of leader
conversation.
So hopefully you took a nuggetfrom that.
I now want to, nick, give you achance before we get into some
fun and talk stealers to throwout an episode challenge.

(01:02:09):
So I always like to ask thelisteners to do one thing before
they listen to the next episode.
So can, from what we talkedabout today, can you give one
tangible challenge that everyonelistening can try to do in the
next couple weeks?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yeah, I'll try to okay.
So, whether you doesn't matterwhat your position is at work
this week, go into the office oryour job or wherever you work,
and Try to make something Fun ora little bit more and energetic

(01:02:45):
.
Put a little bit of energy intosomething.
And If you have to use acatchphrase Like don't blink, or
if you have to just saysomething in a different way,
even if it's the most mundanething where you have to go and
do this stupid thing, everyMonday, blah, blah, blah,
everyone does it and goesthrough the motion.
Stop, I get everybody who'sdoing it.

(01:03:07):
Put a little fun into it, jazzit up a little bit, give it some
energy, just to kind of get thejuices moving.
And you know, if you gotta saydata is dope, do it like.
Get a little energy goingamongst your coworkers or your
team.
It's not as hard as you think itis, but you know, put a little

(01:03:30):
effort into it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
I love it.
Have more fun.
I'll throw out an icebreakerthat you can try.
That might be kind of fun is togo around the room quickly to
start a meeting.
Right, meetings are boring.
Ask people what is on thebackground of their phone, and
people are gonna have picturesof their kids.
They're gonna have pictures ofnature.
They're gonna have differentstuff.

(01:03:52):
You're gonna get to know themon a little bit of a deeper
level and you can probe too,like oh, why do you have that?
Like what tell me about that?
Tell me about where thatpicture was.
A good way to have a little fun, connect with people on a more
personal level and tie in thatnumber five that we talked about
around motivation.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
And if you work with Zach Phillips, you can go into
his office and get an espressoand try to ask him what's on his
background of his phone and seeif you can make that fun.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
I bet it will have something to do with Penn State
we love you Zach.
All right, let's have a littlebit of fun.
Speaking of fun, nick, let'shave some here.
I wanna hear your top fiveSteelers of all time.
And this is your favorite right.
This is, I'm not saying thefive best, the five that.

(01:04:44):
If you could watch them andbring them back onto the team or
watch them forever.
Who are the five Steelers thatyou enjoy the most?

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
So this is you and I have these conversations at
least once a month, but there'sso many different lists and
criterias.
On the negative side there'sthe Chad Scott list, but we know
this is a positive energyepisode, so we'll stay away from
that.
My personal favorites and thisis not like the greatest Steeler

(01:05:13):
of all time is Joe Green.
Okay, this is my Nick Angelo'spersonal favorites.
And number one without a doubtis Greg Lloyd.
I'm not a Steelers fan if it'snot for 95.
The fact that he was, the factthat he wore a shirt that said
they don't pay me for mydisposition I mean, at the time

(01:05:36):
I didn't even know what the worddisposition meant.
I had to get my dad to tell mewhat that meant.
But Greg Lloyd, without a doubtnumber one Steeler of all time.
He is the quintessentialPittsburgh linebacker.
He was after Ham and Lambert,before Gilden and Porter, like
Greg Lloyd, to me, is the alltime Steeler.

(01:05:58):
Then I'm gonna have to throw inScott Paxson, because he is a
personal friend of mine and thatwas super cool to have a buddy
that was on the practice teamand hang out with the Steelers.
So I gotta give my boy, scottPaxson, a big love, big shout
out.
So, yeah, I'll throw him on thelist.
And then I think it is funnybecause I think Heinz Ward

(01:06:22):
played himself into my heartbecause he just the way he
played, they changed rulesbecause of him.
You know that's how good he wasand he was just always smiling
and, like I said, he made it funand people hated him but
respected him and to me that'swhat it's like to be a Steeler.

(01:06:42):
And I'm keeping this list asguys I watch with my own two
eyes.
So, like you know, like JackLambert and Joe Green and stuff,
that I loved watching thoseclips but I never saw them play
live.
I'm gonna say do you rememberJohn Whitman?
I did not like this guy becausehe was a fullback and I was

(01:07:05):
like this dude's slow, why is heon the field?
And he was like they were likehey, john, you're gonna get cut.
And he said I'd rather retirethan play for anyone else and I
was like wait, this guy went toPenn State, then became a
Steeler, trying as hard as hepossibly could.
And when they were like, hey,you can't play on this team,

(01:07:27):
he's like I'd rather quit thanplay for anyone else.
Like this guy is on my list ofall-time favorite Steelers, so
John Whitman is on that list.
And then, geez number five.
Do you remember how excited Iwas when we drafted Troy Edwards
?
Oh man, that was a bust.
I mean Alan.
Fannica Casey Hampton.

(01:07:47):
I got a lot of love for the bigfellas up front.
I don't know.
Can I hold on a second?
I'm gonna hear your five andthen you might jog my memory of
who I could throw in there innumber five.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I wasn't as prepared for this question as I should
have been, but my number oneall-time is Troy Palamalu.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Oh Christ what I assumed, that that was a given.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Yeah, he transformed those awesome defenses in the
late 2000s and I watch him likeI kind of watch my kids play
sports where I'm just like don'tget hurt, don't get hurt, don't
get hurt, because he wouldbattle injuries throughout his
career and anytime he was downthe defense was just not the
same.
So he's my all-time.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Greater safety of all-time and I will start
fighting.
I'm getting tired of doing thewell, he was one and Ed Reid was
one A, and it's like theBeatles and the Rulings.
No, troy Palamalu is thegreatest safety of all time and
I will fight you if you wannasay Ed Reid, because it's not
even close.
It's actually not even closeand that's for another topic in

(01:08:54):
a debate.
But I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
All right, I love it.
My number two is gonna beobscure.
So when we were growing up inthe down era of the Steelers
with Bobby Brister in the 80sand kind of moving into the
early 90s, and even when theyhad Cordell Stewart and Neil
Donnell and they made a littlebit of a run there, they never

(01:09:18):
really had big-time receivers.
So the first receiver that Iremember just being in on was
Plexico Burris.
So I'm a forever Plexico BurrisApologist.
He's number two on my list.
I will hear no slander.
I know he shot himself in aclub and went to jail, but I
will hear no slander on thispodcast of Plexico Burris, just

(01:09:40):
hear you say that my arm getssore.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
for those who don't know, when Nate and I would
watch games in our younger daysand Plex would make a big play,
nate would go nuts and I usuallywas on the receiving end of a
punch or having to catch him ashe jumped to the ceiling.
But yeah, so I'm well aware ofyour Plex love.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Yeah, number three in that same vein is Santonio
Holmes.
This my Penn State love at thetime wasn't as big, so him
coming from Ohio State didn'tbother me at all.
I think I would smack you inthe head when he'd score a
touchdown.
Scream Buckeye, because of theBuckeye stickers that would come
on.
He famously caught thegame-winning touchdown in Super

(01:10:25):
Bowl 43, the last Super Bowlthat the Steelers won, and he
was just a dynamic playmaker.
He returned a punt in thatplayoffs against the Chargers.
So he has a special place forme for sure.
And then I don't know.
Those three are at the top, soI'll throw it back to you if you

(01:10:47):
have your fifth around me out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
I mean I gotta say Troy, but for the sake of
entertainment.
I mean Jerome Bettis was kindof like the quintessential
stealer for a long time of mylife, but I don't know, I feel
like that's like a like I'm thetype of guy who likes obscurity,
like I'll say Dermati DawsonCenter, for in those early 90s

(01:11:12):
years Hall of Fame Center thatcame out of Kentucky.
Dirt Dawson, I mean he was thereason why I knew who offense a
lineman were.
Like you never heard of anoffense a lineman because like
that the old saying goes is likeif they're doing their job
their name doesn't get called.
But in Pittsburgh it was likeah, dirt Dawson.

(01:11:33):
I can hear Myron Cope talkabout Dirt Dawson and just like
the tough nature that he was andlike that's another position on
that Steelers team in thefranchise is center.
You know a long, long listhistory of very talented centers
, so Dermati Dawson might be onmy list there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
That's a great choice .
Current Steelers I love thedefense, so Minka and TJ Water
Harden not the like, so they'reprobably on some lists somewhere
.
James Farrier was a great guyat a root, for I never quite all
the way was in, but he was.
We haven't really had a middlelinebacker like that other than

(01:12:15):
the years that Shazier wasaround.
That's probably the big what if?
Of the Steelers defense, ifthey had Minka, Shazier and Watt
as kind of the three levels.
But I think that's it for me.
Anything else to add playerwise Nick, Because I do want to
ask you if you have a favoriteSteeler game of all time.
Well, I'll say this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
And if you you know you can hear more about this on
my podcast, that football showthat comes out every Thursday.
But TJ Watt is the bestdefensive player in the league
and that's not even up fordebate.
Do you know how hard it is as adefensive player there's 11
guys on the team on the field atonce For the defense to be an

(01:13:00):
individual who can singlehandedly change the outcome of a
game.
Do you know how hard that is?
It is damn near impossible.
I'm talking like Michael Jordan, lebron James level of single
handedly taking over a game.
You add that to football.
It's hard to do anyway, butthen like, oh you know, tom
Brady did it, john Elway did it.

(01:13:23):
I'm talking about an outsidelinebacker Single handedly
winning ball games, that is.
I need people to understandthat a little bit more.
Tj Watt is a special, specialplayer and he's like the new
team.
He's a special player and he'slike the new Troy Palomalu.
Every play.

(01:13:43):
I'm like please don't get hurt,because I've seen what it's
like when he's been out, so justwanted to put that out there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
Good close for us, nick.
Thank you so much for coming on.
For those that want to hearmore of Nick, we'll link that
football show in the show notes.
Definitely check it out.
Get a lot of good footballinsight.
Nick Davilsen comedy as well.
You probably hear more of that,so he's a great guy to listen
to.
He's good enough for what youdid to help me kick off this

(01:14:12):
podcast, nick, and for coming ontoday to talk Steelers and Mike
Tomlin.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
Thanks for having me, nate, and the podcast is great.
Man, you're doing a fantasticjob.
I'm really happy to be a partof it.
I hope you get it off theground and I knew that you would
take it to the next level,because you, my friend, have a
lot of skills and talents andI'm glad you're sharing them
with the world.
So looking forward to coming onfor another episode For all you

(01:14:37):
pro wrestling fans out there.
I've been trying to talk Nateinto having a pro wrestling
episode, but we'll gauge theinterest off after this one.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Sounds good.
As I always say, the worldneeds more leaders.
Do your part to gain leadershipskills, one thing at a time.
Thanks everyone.