Being Stylish and Belonging in Tech: From Trying to Fit in To Expressing Yourself In a culture of Hoodies And Jeans

“What does a leader look like?”, is a question we come back to here often, and this time, we take it literally: I meet with five exceptional senior leaders to talk about what it’s like being interested in style and fashion in tech, of all places, where it’s long been seen as most fashionable not to care about these topics, where an implicit but strongly-enforced dress code of dark hoodies, t-shirts, and jeans reigned, and where the resulting “uniform” culture has been hard on everyone who doesn’t fit traditional ideas of what an engineer, a “technical person”, a “geek”, a leader looks like. So, how do you convey that you are all of those things, when you don’t look like the stereotype of someone who is?

We talk about our journeys in attempts to fit in, exploring ways of expressing and being ourselves, and the stressful mental gymnastics involved in calculating how our appearance may support or undermine how we’re viewed and treated. We dive into being “firsts” in visible positions, and how we found style as a tool for empowerment, connection, and representation, and close with some favorite styles and recommendations to find your own. I loved having this conversation, and I hope you enjoy it too.

“I think style and fashion is such an important part of self-actualization, and becoming that greater version of yourself, and it is a big part of how people perceive you, so it gives me great joy to feel self-actualised on a particular day and feel like I am representing the true version of myself.” — Christina

This conversation was recorded in October 2024.

Find the full episode transcript here.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm so glad I didn't put on my good pants today, or else people
may think that I'm not technical.
That's a quote from the CTO who spoke at a senior leadership
conference at last year, a conference where I had just been
complimented on my carefully selected outfit, including good
pants, and it hit me. We are still here.

(00:23):
We're still in a place where some people think that not just
wearing your oldest washed out conference shirt or your Linux
socks, and nothing against either, but instead looking put
together will somehow threaten your credibility as a leader.
Let's change that. This is leadership confidential,
real talk on more than two hard things in technology, finding

(00:44):
community and becoming the engineering leader you can be.
Today. We're talking about something
that affects all of us but rarely gets airtime in
leadership conversations, Style,fashion, and self-expression in
tech. How do you show up authentically
when the industry's uniform feels like everything that
you're not? And what happens when you want

(01:05):
to wear the dress, the bold lipstick, the statement shoes,
or the beautiful glitzy nail Polish, but you worry that it
might undermine how people perceive your expertise?
I've been thinking a lot about this since my first days in
tech, and I've talked about thisin a previous episode.
I've been thinking about it a lot again lately because I've
been speaking at and hosting discussions at various

(01:27):
conferences lately. And I've been having
conversations with younger folksin our industry who are
navigating the same struggles that many of us have been
dealing with for decades, often not knowing that they're not
alone in this. For today's conversation, I'm
really excited because I'm doingsomething different.
Instead of 1 guest, I'm joined by 5 incredible leaders who have

(01:49):
each found their own ways to navigate being authentic,
expressing themselves, and feeling like they actually
belong in tech. They're all people whose
leadership I've adored for years, and to all also have
impeccable style. Together we dig into the
complicated relationship betweenhow we present ourselves and how
we perceived, and which of thosematters or not.

(02:11):
We also talk about the mental load of calculating outfit
choices, the power of showing updifferently so others that they
know they can too. And yes, we also share some
excellent recommendations along the way.
Here's real talk on more than two hard things in Technology
with Sally, Gisella, Christina, Melinda and David.

(02:51):
I'm just reaching from Argentina.
I've been here in the UK for 9 plus years.
So as an immigrant, sometimes the line that is part of my
identity. I'm a senior leader, which I
really enjoy. I've been in tech for around 10

(03:11):
years without counting like my former education and so on.
And I think in terms of identity, yes, a woman, I guess.
Why slash Latina? Depending how you count I, I
don't make a fast line about it,and I haven't been tested for
narrow directions, although there are suspicions.

(03:36):
Kind of ask who's suspecting, but that's out of the scope for
this. I think we might have lost
Christina. David, do you want to go
instead? Sure.
So I am a man. I'm mixed race, been in the
industry for 25 years and for better, for worse, a senior
leader. And yeah, since we're talking

(03:57):
about neurodivergence, definitely have spent the bulk
of that 25 year career wrestlingwith with operating in this
space as somebody whose brain works a little bit differently.
But yeah, that's me. Belinda is the person I'd spoken
to the least, which is not so far.
No, no worries. Yeah, I'm, I'm Well, where to
start? I'm a woman.

(04:18):
I am mixed race, whiter nation. I, I wouldn't say I am
neurodivergent, although I do think sometimes my brain works a
bit differently than others. I I've been in tech for over 20
years at this point. I have worked as an engineering
manager for over 10 years, and I've been a conference speaker,

(04:38):
Blogger and event organiser. Yeah, that's me.
Thanks. I do also, by the way, love the
contrast between your outfit andthe background.
That is just. It's beautiful.
Thank you. Yeah, it's one of the things
that I, I've got a couple of outfits specifically for just at
home. Wow, nice, that is kudos for
that. Honestly, if I had a goal start

(05:00):
to pass out, you'd get more. Christina, should we try again?
My name is Christina. I am a senior leader in software
engineering. I'm a white CIS woman.
I've been in the industry for about 10 years.
I have a non traditional path tosoftware engineering, so I don't
have a computer science degree or anything close to that.

(05:22):
I actually don't have a degree and I am also an immigrant and
that's a big part of my identityas well.
Sally. Hello, so I'm Sally Late.
I work as an engineering director at the moment.
I've been working in the industry for about 20 years as
well, originally as a web developer, then moving into
management, into senior leadership.

(05:43):
I identify as a assists white woman.
I also have a disability. I work primarily remotely
nowadays, which means there's a lot of leggings, a lot of like
comfy clothes in the rotation too.
But I do like an opportunity fornice clothes, so I might need to
be inspired by Melinda in that sense.
Yeah, be all mind. Honesty.
Not to speak for everyone, but Ikind of want awesome.

(06:06):
So I'll just briefly start with with my background and I would
love to begin honestly by hearing a little bit about just
like what style and fashion meanto you.
I honestly also, I know I've reached at least reached out to
at least one of you under the presumption that this is a
conversation you're interested in having, not going to see who
it was. And so for me, I think even

(06:29):
through conversations with some of you, I think with Christina
at least, and with Sally, for example, I realized that this is
something I really care about, which was really interesting
because I've been in the industry for so long.
And I started out, yeah, as someone with a non traditional
background, in hindsight, only realizing that I tried my best
to just fit in as much as possible, including the most
visible way with what I was wearing.

(06:50):
I previously worked at a bank and worn, you know, typical very
business, the outfits, suits andall that.
I was glad to be able to get ridof those just for Full
disclosure. But when I quit, done that
career, but I mean, literally atthe project I worked on at the
time was called Hoodie. And that's also the stuff that
everyone was wearing and the oldconference T-shirts and whatnot.
And nothing against those necessarily, like maybe as

(07:12):
pyjamas, but or even during daytime.
But I realized that, yeah, I wasjust trying so hard to fit in.
And that was a very visible way for me to do that.
And it took me a lot over the years to, like, figure out if,
you know, what's my style. I think there's also a lot in my
personal life that kind of helped with that and sort of
coming closer to my identity andall of that.
But I was at Leading Edge in London this year.

(07:33):
That's where Sally and I even met and had this conversation
where someone complimented beyond an outfit.
And then someone else in that group said, oh, you know, I just
overheard someone who said, oh, I kind of wish I'd worn worst
pants so that people don't thinkthat I'm not technical.
And that was someone who was going to talk there.
And it was like, oh damn, it's 2024 and this is the stuff that

(07:54):
people say. And so yeah, then Sally and I
got chatting and spoke about this and this is, this is where
we are. So the question I'd want to
start with, and if you hate it, we can start somewhere else.
But it was basically I put 2 style and fashion in this whole
being in tech context mean to you.
I'm happy to jump in seeing as we kind of started off.
Sorry, yeah, I've kind. Of yeah, no, it's good.

(08:16):
I was actually trying to remember what I was wearing at
that conference as well. Very.
Colourful dress, but that's probably not narrowing it down
much. No, actually, yeah, I think
another one. And yeah, I guess in terms of my
background and sort of relationship with fashion, I
think I've been through a similar sort of experience,
which I guess a lot of us maybe have as well, though that's a

(08:39):
bit of an assumption. So yeah, I, I really did want to
fit in. I wore a lot of T-shirts and
jeans kind of outfits. I've had periods throughout my
career, which is obviously kind of a big chunk of my life.
And so therefore my relationship, I guess with
fashion and clothes, I felt it would be really unprofessional
or would maybe reflect poorly onmy company if I was

(09:02):
unconventional or, you know, waswearing some things that maybe
people didn't approve of. And that wasn't even, you know,
when I'm saying unconventional, I mean things like dyeing my
hair like red or something else like that.
I think that this is a topic that some people never think
about if they haven't had to. So I know that it's, you know,

(09:23):
it's one of those things that others may not realise that this
is extremely stressful sometimesfor some people.
But yeah, to me sort of fashion style, I've come to realise that
they can play a huge part in my happiness, in my confidence.
They can help me sort of feel like I'm up for a, you know,
maybe a more challenging situation, that kind of thing.

(09:44):
I've also found them useful, potentially cliched to, to help
me sort of process different events in my life.
You know, I've got the memorablehaircuts, the memorable hair
dyes, buying shoes, all of that kind of thing.
But tied into that as well, I think they also represent a bit
of stubbornness because I'm actually horrendously allergic
to hair dye and you can't see itat the moment.

(10:04):
Pretty normal. But I have had like pillow box
red or that kind of thing as well.
Yeah, it is so. Scary so almost, but you know,
good for you. Thank you.
I'm also happy to chance. I think for me when I think
about fashion and style, I thinkthere are a couple of words that

(10:25):
automatically come to mind. And 1 is when it's actually art.
I do think it's, it has, it has this kind of visual thing to it.
I'm also someone that does painting as a hobby and I, I
don't think like all these kind of visual things are very
connected and it allows you to have, I'll be defining in a way
that is accessible to everyone and it's actually quite embedded

(10:47):
into the your daily life. Like for painting, I have to
find a time and a place in my week and I do it Friday after
work, but fashion and clothing Ican do every day and I actually
get to do it every day. So I do get a lot of enjoyment
out of that. And and then I do think in terms
of on the context more of work, I do think it's a very powerful

(11:08):
source of like self-expression and also confidence and
individuality and being able to show up as yourself and how
whatever that means on whatever day that means.
But I think for me it's a very powerful source of yeah
expression, I guess. That's wonderful.
Just to follow up on that, I agree with that and maybe to say

(11:32):
it in a slightly different way or my own way.
I think style and fashion is such an important part of self
actualization, right and, and becoming that greater version of
yourself. And it is a big part of how
people perceive you. So it gives me great joy to feel
self actualized on a particular day and feel like I am
representing the true version ofmyself.

(11:55):
And it's a form of honesty in a way that hasn't certainly always
been the case in my background, you know, during, you know, my
adult life, I've had wild swingsin my economic state and, and
you know, what kind of income I was pulling in.
And when I got kind of like my first real job and my first real
salary, it was especially incredibly important for me to

(12:17):
fit in, you know, and to look like I belonged.
And for a while, what that looked like for me is kind of
cosplaying as a sis white man. So lots of button downs, lots of
slacks. And in some ways like part of
that also resonates with me because I like having kind of a
little bit of a androgynous or masculine style.

(12:37):
But that was like the pre stylish version of button downs
and slacks. Just straight slacks, straight
straightforward button down. And it took me a long time to,
you know, start to feel like I belonged or I had the the power
to exercise to move away from that.
It was kind of a trajectory of power, right?

(12:58):
The more power and more stable Ifelt, the more that I felt like
I was able to step out of that and try something different.
But I definitely didn't feel that way in the beginning.
I I love what you said about being an expression of honesty.
I do think that is very, very true.
And also very hard. Yeah, I think for me it's

(13:19):
echoing what everyone else has said so far.
It's showing who I am, what my personality is, but also showing
different parts of, I guess, my story and the things that I care
about. I think I really love finding
clothes that, yeah, really represent me.
But also, I think I choose things like my bags and my

(13:42):
makeup and my jewelry. I try to lean into the very
geeky side of that, where, you know, I'll wear earrings for my
favorite video game. I'll wear lipsticks that have
that are based on the colors from Disney cartoons and stuff
like that. So for me, I think it's really a
way to just highlight different things that I care about, but

(14:02):
also in the process, dressing upin a way that just helps me feel
the way that I want to feel. So make myself feel more
confident than maybe I actually AM and feel more comfortable in
spaces than maybe I, I would be.But I also realized that I, it
took me a while to realize what my style actually is.

(14:24):
I very much had this notion growing up that I, I was a geek
and I somehow saw that as meaning that I couldn't kind of
be a girly girl as well. I was a geeky girl rather than a
girly girl. So I very much kind of refused
to look at anything fashion or makeup related because I

(14:46):
thought, well, if I do that, then I'm not, I'm not a proper
geek. And I think it took me a couple
of years to realize, no, you know what?
I can be, I can be a geek about fashion as well.
And it's only when I moved to London that I started my own
blog called Miss Geeky at the time.
And I started that as a way to talk about all things geeky and

(15:10):
girly and the things that are inthat cross section.
And that's when I really starteddiscovering what are the things
that I actually love and leadingmore into that.
Beautiful. I guess they're realizing that
you have range and can they bring all of that?
Yeah, exactly. It's really interesting to hear
all of you talk about your relationship to fashion and the

(15:32):
industry, because I think like it's and it's not that this is
something that I didn't know, but obviously the uniform of
Seasman and technology is like areally powerful is a really
powerful tool. And I can and I certainly hear
the ways that some of you have navigated that.
And that's, you know, that's something I've talked to a lot

(15:52):
of non male colleagues of mine in in the past and how they've
had to navigate it and when thatoutfit has and has not served
them in in their sort of journeythrough the industry in and out
of control. So it's, it's really interesting
to think about for me both what it means to dress up like from a

(16:14):
performative standpoint. I think also I'm, I'm totally
hitching to what you're saying, Melinda, about feeling confident
and I think feeling comfortable in my own skin and feeling like
in as much as you all in the past, some of you in the past
have put on a costume to be in. I have put on a costume to be
out in some ways to sort of escape from that paradigm and

(16:39):
and to create connections with people who who have the same
values that I do in some ways that are reflected through the
way that I dress. I think.
Yeah. And I and I think to a certain
extent there's something that always makes me happy being in
sort of a video call with a bunch of engineers or product
managers and wearing something very colorful on a dark day and

(17:02):
somebody says something about it.
It's OK. Well, you know, that's made a
difference in the tenor of the space.
One of the things that that I'd like to talk about with a, a
good, a close colleague of mine,it's one of our mottos.
It's take the work seriously, but not yourself.
And and this is my way of doing that I think.
That's really the loved 1 going to have so many takeaways from

(17:22):
this already. It was wonderful.
So since honestly, I do really also want to talk about the fun
stuff because I really would like to get some outfits or
other recommendations out of this just personally.
So I do want to get to, but since I think we've all kind of
either skirted around it or really heavily eluded or spoken
about it already, I do kind of want to talk about the
complications of this whole thing.

(17:44):
Sort of, you know, being in tech, like Melinda mentioned,
the whole girly or geeky and then can be both.
But finding ways to express thator like with what a few of you
also mentioned in terms of hack up work takes up so much days
and time. I need a way to like or want
that as a way also to kind of bemyself or also distance from
distance myself from what peoplemight think who I am based on

(18:07):
how they maybe see me at first. So yeah, I'd like to talk about
again, what's made this complicated or a topic for you
in tech. And in terms of it's clearly
something we've all spent some time thinking about it in some
way because I think Sally, you said it, we probably also had
to. What's that been like for you?
The first time that I really remember having to think about

(18:29):
it was when I was pretty young still and I was in quite a
senior role. So I was in the room with,
because the projects that I was working on at the time, quite a
lot of more kind of traditional leaning, you know, com computer
science or IT men who would sometimes quite openly sort of

(18:51):
question my competence or not bethrilled that I was the person
sat across the table from them. And I think that was when I, you
know, was very aware of how my appearance can sort of, you
know, the first impressions can really decide the direction of a
conversation even before you yousay anything.
And having to prove myself, having to sort of make sure that

(19:13):
I belonged to be in that room became something that that was
very much on my mind on different fronts.
And so I think definitely, you know, confidence has come up a
few times. I think it was also my internal
confidence and then sort of projecting confidence to other
people was how I sort of startedto think about all of that.
But then it was also it was a little bit more complicated
because I realised that doesn't always translate through to

(19:36):
every situation. So one thing that stands out in
my mind is when I went to, it was just a tech conference.
I was wearing, and it's sad thatI still remember this, but I was
wearing a very conservative, I would say brown, sort of mid
length pencil dress with a whiteshirt underneath it, not

(19:57):
revealing nothing. And it had one of those
wonderful inventions of a live, unmoderated, I think it was like
a tweet wall or something like that.
And a message came up that said,and I don't even know how they
got my, my Twitter handle, but it was like, Sally is the
hottest person at this conference, which let's just set

(20:18):
that aside. But the fact that somebody was
commenting so publicly on my appearance made me feel
incredibly vulnerable at the time where I'd gone into that
feeling. You know, I'm dressed
professionally, I fit in, and I think around that time I started
to do things like look on Flickrto see what people were wearing

(20:41):
at past events so that again, I didn't stand out.
I could judge whether I would feel awkward turning up in a
dress or, you know, doing other things like that.
That really made me question a lot of things.
I think that having in sort of companies I've worked in sort of
environments that I've been in, there weren't many women, there
weren't many femme presenting people.

(21:03):
Everybody was quite conformist. And so it was something that I
had to sort of learn to navigate.
And I think that's definitely played a part in my attitudes
now, which are very different and trying to be visible, do
things a bit differently so thatpeople don't necessarily have
to, you know, try to navigate the same things on their own.
But yeah, I would say there's somany different layers of kind of

(21:24):
complication that I've gone through over my time, over the
years and in different roles. And as has come up already, you
know, your different levels of privilege, I think definitely
play a part in terms of, you know, how you need to react and
the things that you need to navigate to.
I, yeah, I I've been in I guess sort of similar situations, but
I've been, I've responded I think in different ways.

(21:46):
I think I'm quite contrary in that regard.
I'm very much the type of personthat, you know, when I was in
high school and got told, oh, you know, maths is for boys, my
reaction was no, it's not. Maths is for me as well.
And I think in my early 20s, I was attending a lot of hacker
phones and I very early noticed that the response I would get

(22:10):
from like the judges or from people sponsors walking around
asking what the teams are working on would vary a lot
based on what I was wearing. If I was wearing T-shirts and
jeans and hoodie, they'd assume I'd be one of the programmers
and ask me just the same questions as everyone else.
If I was wearing a pretty dress,had some makeup on, I'd get

(22:31):
questions about whether or not Iwas doing the marketing of the
team or whether or not I was doing the design for the team,
even though I was there with my laptop and my editor out like
programming and everything. And, and then I, I was at an
event where and I was wearing a dress and another woman walked
up to me and was like, oh, if I'd known someone else was

(22:52):
wearing a dress, I would have aswell.
But I want to be taken seriously.
So I'm just wearing my T-shirts and, and my jeans.
And this is back in like 2008, 2009, I think.
And from that moment on, I only wore dresses.
I thought, you know what, actually, I'm, if you say this
is not the thing that women, well, geeks should be wearing,

(23:16):
then you know what? I'm going to show that they can.
So I think it's in my nature in that sense to kind of go the
opposite direction of what the norm is.
But I've also realized that for most of these events, I was
already standing out because I was one of the few women in the
room. It doesn't, it didn't feel to me
like that much of A bigger step to stand out even more and just

(23:39):
dress in the way that I wanted to because I was going to stand
out either way. And I'm happy that I did that at
the time because I think over the years I've gone on various
responses from people going, thank you for doing that.
You've encouraged me to wear more dresses.
You've encouraged me to start wearing red lipstick.
And I'm kind of proud for myselffor doing that at the time, even

(24:02):
though looking back at it, it felt easy for me, even though I
know it's not that easy for other people.
There's an interesting point in what you just said that sparked
a lot of things from year round,but depending on how you address
it would change the feedback you'd get.
Because my start out in tech wasvery different and my background

(24:23):
was I think it. I had to get into my mid 20s to
even realize that being a nerd or a geek is a thing and that
there are other people like that.
I grew up in a very small village and really important
thing, but for me, because I when I started out in tech, you
know, I'd had this finance background.
I very soon end up Co founding acompany with four engineers.

(24:43):
They explicitly brought me on asthe one with the business
background and the one who understood, you know, everything
that they did not about how to start a company, build a company
and all of them. And so I think, and I'd already
by that point been in tech and even leadership roles for a
little while, had done a bunch of working open source, which
obviously is it's own kind of hell hole when it comes to all

(25:05):
sorts of misogyny and whatnot. And so I was by that point had
already often you've been asked,so you know, how do you get
engineers to respect you if you don't have an engineering
background or how do you even they generally get people to
respect you? And how do you do it with the
like with the not knowing anything of this world that you
have or if often even you know, I know you didn't say it that

(25:25):
way, but I think for a really long time there was and
sometimes still is a bit of a them presenting people being
very hyper conscious of not wanting to be read as someone
who's in marketing or in anotherjob that can be in a tech
company, but that is not engineering.
That is of course, also there are a lot of things that are
problematic there. But sometimes there's also an
aspect of the of this. It has nothing to do with those
people specifically, but whereasa bit of a classism within like

(25:49):
tech companies and organizationsstill affect having sort of
engineers be kind of the top of the class and often also the
most high earning people and whatnot.
And everyone else is kind of just secondary citizens.
And so I was hyper conscious of all of them by that point
already. And so I really kind of overshot
in the opposite direction of really trying to make myself as

(26:11):
a close to everyone else in the quote UN quote standard of the
white man in the industry, excess white man in the industry
as I could. And it took me a really long
time to unlearn all of that. Like I definitely also had a
bunch of the internalized misogyny of again, not being
girly or whatnot. Took me a while to work through
that. I'm like now painting a lot in

(26:32):
pink currently, but there's it'sa process.
But I think I get the the other ring and the really, if people
already have so many grounds to either, you know, attack me or
belittle me or feel like they, yeah, I can question my
abilities or my experience despite the work that I deliver,
then I might as well just at least try as hard as I can to
not give them more reasons to. I love that you put yourself out

(26:58):
there as well, Melinda, to, to try to help other people that
you've always really inspired meas well, the way that you
mentioned your handbags and yourlipstick and things like that.
And I think I also went the other way of when I started
doing public speaking, I was on stage deliberately wearing a
dress, deliberately wearing likered heels or cool shoes or

(27:18):
something just to again, you know, in the hope that I could
give somebody else confidence. And so I love that this is a
thing that people can do for others and try to help them be
themselves in in whatever way they want to express themselves.
I think I've also been quite lucky in terms of the teams that
I've worked with where I feel like I don't think I've ever

(27:41):
really had like negative responses as to how I've dressed
or, you know, I've not been taken less seriously because of
how I've dressed. Like one of the teams I joined,
I was wearing like really high heels, like the highest type of
heels that you could wear on my first day of work.
And one of my new Co workers trying to joke at me going, oh,

(28:03):
I've never seen an engineer wearwear shoes like that.
And one of my other new coworkers, also an engineer,
turned around and just flippantly said, I've not seen
my shoes in the weekend. And it it was kind of just a
reassurance that, OK, you know, no matter what anyone is wearing

(28:26):
on in in the team, we're all there on at the same level, if
that makes sense. So I think I've been also quite
lucky in that regard of being able to just lean into the
things that I that I like wearing and helping make it
easier for other people. But I think I know, yeah, not
everyone has had that luck. I'll chime in and maybe just add

(28:49):
a different dimension to the same themes, right.
So echoing the same themes of feeling like I have to prove
myself and worrying about first impressions and professionalism.
Something that I like and I liketo practice is like a lot of
makeup. I like a full beat.
I think it's fun. You know, a lot of blush,

(29:09):
arguably too much blush, a lot of highlighter, arguably too
much highlighter. And you know what I like to call
the bimbo lip, you know that like overlined top lip.
And to me, it's just fun and it is not boring.
And I, you know, there's this other side of elegant clean girl

(29:30):
look like you're not wearing anymakeup.
And to some extent that seen as the gold standard like these
days, we have, you know, trends in makeup that come and go, but
clean girls having a moment right now.
And I just don't subscribe to that.
Like it, that is not a it's an anti goal for me.
And I think about that. I think about that a lot.

(29:51):
I think about that this week, right?
In my conference this week, you know, I'm seeing, you know, top
leaders at my company and important customers.
And every day I wonder, does this change how people perceive
me or, you know, do they think I'm less professional or less
capable because I overlie my toplip?

(30:12):
It ultimately doesn't change what I do.
And part of that is, you know, again, my own.
I need to have some fun in my day too, right?
So in my own self actualization and a little bit of
representation too, right? So I want to, you know, be
present there for other folks who may want to do the same.
But the questions never really leave me.

(30:33):
That's a really interesting point though.
Just to jump in, if I may, because I feel like that's
almost the flip side of this as well.
And I, when I get to conferences, when I go out, you
know, generally I also like makeup, but I used to put on make up
for every single meeting. Any time that I was meeting with
somebody online, especially if Iwas sort of, you know, like

(30:54):
interviewing somebody, I needed to make a air quotes good
impression. But now I don't and I get up and
I, you know, I see how I feel from a day-to-day perspective.
If I'm waking up on the weekend,typically I don't put make up
on. So I only do it if I feel like
it. And one of the things that I
think has become really important to me is to sort of

(31:14):
perpetuate or not perpetuate, sorry, this thing of if you are,
you know, a woman or sort of expected to look a certain way,
you have to wear makeup as part of that.
So for me having apparently I'm cool.
Now, hopefully if this is, I don't know what the the movement
is, but maybe it means I'm supercool.

(31:35):
But yeah, not having any makeup,having messy hair, I'm probably
taking a terrible picture of myself in.
Some ways. But just kind of being very
normal, being a natural person, I think, and showing others that
you don't necessarily have to bepolished or spend half an hour
on your makeup before starting work has also become really
important to me. So yeah, that's something that I

(31:56):
hadn't thought about until now, but I I'm realizing that's quite
important to me too. When there's a lot read about
creating or finding a space for yourself where you can make
those choices and don't have to feel like you have to fit a
certain mold that someone else created.
Like I will say one of by the way, Christina, I have had a
mental note for weeks now to askyou about what highlighter you

(32:18):
use. I'm going to have to say that
hot loud now so I don't forget and.
Make the end of the segment about product.
Percentage and but I honestly one thing that's really been on
my mind with this, especially this year is I've been working
with and hearing from a lot likemore young women and take on

(32:39):
people of colour in the industry.
And one thing that's honestly been quite terrifying for me is
that one so many just don't knowthe history of so much of the
things that, you know, you've alluded to.
And then I think, you know, we've all experienced and that
we know about in terms of, you know, structural discrimination
and like the whole thing, like many of them just don't know and

(32:59):
many of them end up feeling likethey're the only person people
who deal with this. They're the only people who, you
know, experience harassment at work and discrimination and
whatnot. And of course, there is, to some
degree, maybe a generational thing where that's something
that people have to discover in some ways, unfortunately.
But seeing. Yeah, I've been in the industry

(33:19):
for kind of only 15 years, but I've also given a lot of talks
about those topics. And so I've done a lot of
research on it and fortunately learned a lot, which has also
helped. But and that's where I think you
know, the point that many of youmade in terms of like, I'm doing
my thing here and maybe other people will notice and it will
be a kind of affirmation for them, I think is so, so valuable
because again, a lot of people just don't know when they're

(33:42):
often still navigating the same stuff that many of us have been
at for decades now. I think that's very interesting
that what you're saying, Lena, because while people were
telling their stories, they actually felt like when was the
first time I thought my style may differ from my surroundings
or that I that my career may be at odds with my style.

(34:06):
And actually it was the first day of uni, which is shocking,
but it was featured that I so I just to study computer science,
but I actually didn't know anyone in the industry before I
went to that first day in university.
I just took it as well. They have this has math, they
have some things that are interesting, has a good like

(34:28):
career. But yeah, I'm, I'm, it sounds
like something I would like to do, but I didn't know anyone.
So I wasn't quite sure what to expect.
And I show up and I was wearing like an A line pink and white
flowery kind of knee skirt and like a white top and a cross
body back and some white flats, some makeup, not too much.

(34:51):
But like, I don't know, it's just normal for me.
Normal. I don't know.
It was like, I'm very normal. She's a 18 year old outfit.
And I kind of show up and yeah, I mean, the looks were a bit
funny. Like it was clearly not what
everyone was expecting, I guess.And and yeah, I think that was
kind of the moment that I realized there was like

(35:13):
unexpected outfit. So I think what you're saying
being about people have to discover that one way or
another, either they read about it or they leave it on the first
day. But there is a process of a
personal process of discovering that that I guess we tend to
forget. I think for me, it was very
solidified in my memory just because it was also the first

(35:35):
day of uni, which is fine, memorable on its own.
That I think what is valuable for that is to then the reaction
is, I think Melinda, you were saying, well, I actually
realized I wasn't going to cheatanyway for other reasons.
So if you're going to be, if you're going to be judged, just

(35:55):
let's be judged for who you are.So, yeah, it's, yeah, I think
it's kind of that maybe supporting those younger
generations to realize that there is room for that too, but
there is a process of discovery that will be a bit painful or
surprising and we can spare them, I think probably of that,

(36:16):
unfortunately. I think there's just something
around not just changing the kind of mindsets of the younger
generation, but actually changing the mindsets of some of
the men right now, currently. So I think, you know, I've gone
into that point where, yeah, I'll dress in the way that I
want and don't care about what others think.

(36:36):
But I do think now that I'm going to more, I guess, senior
leadership type events where themajority are still white
straight men in a room. I do think there's an extra
hurdle for me to to show who I am and that I am technical and
that I have 20 years of experience.

(36:57):
Especially when you know, you'remeeting people for the first
time and networking and people are making very quick first
impressions and judging based onthat kind of like first sentence
that you say basically. So I noticed for myself that I
am spending much more time, I guess, tweaking how I introduce

(37:18):
myself to make sure that the years of experience and what I
do, that I have a technical background comes across in that
kind of like first paragraph of what I'm telling people.
Because I do feel there is stillthat thing or that assumption of
like, Oh yeah, she's a woman. She might not necessarily have a
technical background even thoughI'm there at a technical event.

(37:38):
So I think there is still like mindsets that need to be
changed, which I thought we had kind of gotten to the point
already that, you know, you're at a tech event, don't don't
assume anything about anyone's background.
But those assumptions are still being made, I think.
I mean, I think it's pretty, I love what you're saying here

(37:58):
because I think like from my perspective, like I'm thinking a
lot about conferences. And one thing I've noticed about
I host a conference and one of the things I've noticed about
sort of FEM presenting and womenspeakers is that they'll they
often you can tell how hard they've worked to make a
decision about who to be on stage visibly.

(38:22):
And in a way that, like in in some cases, hilariously, the men
have not just absolutely have not considered in any way like
how they present on stage almostalmost as the sort of extension
of the mythos of Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg's like legendary

(38:44):
distaste for choice. And what that signifies about
them as engineers, which is sucha retcon moment of saying, yeah,
I don't know how to dress. And so I'm just going to tell
everybody that by wearing jeans and a black turtleneck, that
somehow signifies the efficiencyof my brain.
I think being on stage or in senior leadership is about

(39:06):
creating, is about shifting patterns of recognition.
And, and you know, it was part of a conversation not long ago.
We were talking about how long it takes to shift pattern
recognition, how long it takes to shift an industry from
especially in industry, our industry's perspective on gender
and identity and, and an openness and a breaking down of

(39:29):
the uniform and say actually, this belongs here.
And through that. Then you get to what Sally is
talking about in terms of choiceand saying, actually, I don't.
I can be who I can be, whoever Iam in this space and belong
because we've had to push the edges.
And that people being in positions of power and positions

(39:51):
of visibility, looking differentand doing the work and being
authorities on their topic, likeclear authorities on their
topic, creates an impression in people's minds.
And I think it just takes several, clearly several
attempts to do it. But I do think it's moving
because I see that in the young people who are joining the

(40:13):
industry now, especially young women who are joining the
industry now and what I think isa shifted perspective on this.
I do still like, I think that's very true and think as a
speaker, I also will just to confirm that yes, I do put a
shit on what I wear on stage. I have two talks to give next
week and a conference to host. And I have a whole half day of

(40:36):
outfit planning ahead that I don't know how to squeeze in
because my talks also need to begood.
But one thing I really still want to echo the part of the
work that there is to do becauseI've had this year's been really
remarkable for me because I've had a surprise to me, very
surprising number of engagementswith specifically white men and
many of them in the space for a really long time.

(40:58):
And often, you know, introduced to me as people who really care
and who really do the work and who want to do well and who, you
know, are invested in all the good stuff.
And then having conversations with them that basically
ultimately left me realizing that's the talk that I'm going
to give next week, that this kind of stuff isn't talked
about. There seems to be an assumption

(41:18):
that all of those topics magically go away once, like
women or people of color are in leadership positions that
suddenly, you know, everything'sgreat and yes, we need to talk
about diversity and belonging and all of that for teams.
And there has been movement on that.
But at the same time, like a lotof people were and people who
I've worked with, like a former boss of mine did ask me

(41:41):
verbatim, like also for the last15 years of your career in tech,
like you've just constantly beenworried that one one day you
would get harassed. And I didn't even know what to
say because I was like, dude, that's been my experience from
day one. It's not just a hypothetical or
something I'm worried about. It's, I did just, I did want to
mention that because I think Christina also alluded to
there's still the question sort of in the back of the head with

(42:05):
Ohio, you know, does this still change how people perceive me in
some way? And if so, does that matter?
Or are they just people who I can choose that I don't want to
work with? Is that a choice I can make in a
job market that's difficult or more difficult than it used to
be and all of that. And I just thought that was
important to call out because I do think like using something

(42:25):
I'm hyper cognizant of as well, then like I have a weird degree
of visibility in some spaces. And I try and use that in ways
to like it, do a little part to push the conversation forward.
But at the same time, there seems to be just this idea, even
with, again, very progressive people who I think would also
describe themselves that way andthat be described that way by
others, that somehow those things just magically disappear

(42:48):
either once you're at a certain level, have a certain set of
experience, or I don't even knowwhat it is.
Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's, it's definitely
not going away on it's own. Especially I think when we men
get to especially senior leadership roles, there are a
lot of different standards. Not only, I mean we're focusing

(43:11):
on style and now, but there is so many different standards
across performance and differentthings.
And this is just one extra cognitive blow for women or
people that are different to to juggle.
I think it's good to have communities like this to
support. At the end of the day, it would
be great as taking the suit to tight to shift Italy a little

(43:34):
bit and shake it and try to break the stereotypes.
And I do think there is a lot ofgood people doing good work, but
it seems to be taking a very long time.
It's ironically a very slow industry in some respects.
It is very ironic, I agree. So since honestly, since some of

(43:56):
some of you have mentioned some things in this direction, so,
you know, for people who do wantto find different ways of, you
know, expressing themselves and to, you know, wonder, can I do
that? How can I do that?
Do you have any advice you can share, things that have helped
you that might be useful for others, people who want to tap
more into the OK, I want to kindof be myself in this, even

(44:18):
though I don't maybe look like the what someone thinks of still
when they think of an engineer, even though we're hoping that's
kind of shift. Yeah.
I, I can start here. I think for, for me again, as I
said in my early 20s, I, I was like, OK, actually now I should
try and figure out what, what type of style I like, but I

(44:38):
didn't know where to start. I did not really have a good
fashion sense at all. If there are all photos out
there of me with really bad clashing like colors and outfits
and I did not know how to use makeup.
So for me at the time, I startedfollowing fashion blogs, like
makeup blogs, fashion blogs, trying to figure out which other

(45:00):
people out there whose styles resonated with my own style and
got inspiration from them. I think nowadays the equivalent
would be either like TikTok or Instagram or your social media
platform of choice. But I think part of it is look
at the people that inspire you and breakdown the outfits that

(45:22):
they're wearing so that you start recognizing, OK, that's
the type of top that would work with this type of skirt.
This is the type of dress that would fit this type of color
lipstick. This is the type of color
lipstick that that works on withmy complexion.
For me, it was a very kind of methodical like research I did
in that sense of just looking atwhat was out there trying

(45:46):
whether or not it worked for me.And I'm going, no, this doesn't
and this does. It didn't happen overnight.
It was just starting with with one thing and and then growing
it from there. And now at this point I'm
addicted to like bags and lipsticks and everything.
And you can't stop me from from just seeing not a new color.
I'm like, oh I need that one now.

(46:07):
I, I do even want to because I think for me, one big piece
started before that and I love what you just shared.
For me, the big piece was like allowing myself to care about
this, which token in hindsight, kind of understandable, but also
shocking amount of work. But realizing that, oh, this is
something that I can be interested in and I get to be.

(46:27):
And I, even if I don't make a ton of money or so, it's still
something where I can, you know,drugstore make up.
And so it can also be absolutelydecent.
And I'm just realizing, oh, I can actually make this a thing.
And I if I want to spend my evenings just window shopping
and online stores, then I'm justgoing to do that.
And so that to me was just a really important point in what
you just said. Kind of made me remember that

(46:49):
took a while, but it also reallyhelped just taking away like,
shame of, Oh, no, this is a, or a topic I shouldn't be invested
in Oregon. Like a lot of misogyny there
with all this superficial stuff or what?
It was not. It was a lot of stuff that was
deeply tied to my identity. And I think giving myself
permission for them really helped.
And also, yeah, hearing from people who say, Oh yeah, I have
a collection of lipsticks, I think very inspiring.

(47:13):
I would also just say tied into that, maybe it is that first
lipstick or, you know, that first kind of chief shadow that
is very different, but you feel OK because you're just going to
try it out. When I first think about kind of
starting to move away from T-shirts and jeans, I was very
often wearing T-shirts, jeans, but a jacket and heels.

(47:33):
And so that was, you know, kind of like the radical entry point.
And I would just say, you know, I think I've had various points
where I've done things like if Ihad bright red hair, I would
feel like I would need to match that by being a bit more
conservative in terms of wearinga very normal dress or something
like that. But that really helped me, I

(47:54):
think to feel like it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
You can play with these different kind of like levers on
different days. Maybe one day you feel more
confident to go more out there with makeup or with your shoes
or with your clothing or with your jewellery or whatever, like
the different elements are. And maybe some days you want to
go, you know, for everything full end of the spectrum.
And some days you're, you know, you're nothing.

(48:16):
So I think just kind of like playing around with it, seeing
how it feels. And also trying to identify how
that makes you feel as well. So, you know, does that give you
a boost? Does it make you stressed trying
to kind of, you know, think about the different elements
that that might play into that. And also, I think one of the
things for me as a leader is trying to think a little bit

(48:36):
about, we've talked about this in a roundabout way, but the
signals that you can send to others.
And I'd say not only in a reallypositive way, but also if I only
ever show up wearing like high end, really, you know, designer
clothes, that to me is sending amessage to some people who maybe

(48:56):
can't afford those sort of things that they don't fit in as
well. So I think actually being really
balanced can be interesting, notonly to sort of, you know, allow
you to lean into different sides, to maybe have confidence
in different ways and to, you know, to get into things slowly,
but also just to show people around you that it's not all or
nothing as well. And also the, the like, the
final thing I'd say in terms of,I guess advice is just going

(49:20):
back to your point, don't be theperson that, you know, questions
somebody's belonging at a tech conference, but do be the person
that goes, Hey, that's a lovely dress or you look amazing today.
I think there could always be more of that positivity.
And, you know, far be it for me to be to, you know, encourage
overly commenting on people's appearance or anything like

(49:41):
that. But if you can give people a
booster a bit of confidence, I think that's a really nice thing
to to put into their day. Yeah, I, I will say I, I try and
make a point to sort of a subtleway I complimenting people say
something about someone's outfit, you know, be their sick
cool shirt, right. Especially also honestly, when I
see people who aren't representing wearing nail nail
Polish, for example, because I, I mean, it is awesome.

(50:04):
Like I don't just say because. And so, and I've also found that
can be a really cool way to connect with people who I might
otherwise not even, you know, necessarily have a way to start
a conversation with or even justas, you know, throw away comment
on the side. But you get don't make it about
people's appearances or open. But if there's something about
an outfit, it's like in an appropriate, respectful way.

(50:26):
It's a line to skirt. But yeah, I think it can be a
neat way to connect in a somewhat human way, especially
when it's with people who are atthe same level.
It's sort of a industry event like that.
Don't do that with your employees.
Other tips, advice, things that have helped you.
Curious. It seems for me, one like always
say, if people ask me, is that one is that I don't personally

(50:48):
consider stylus something you found and it's done, but it's
more the the balls and the one of the ways I see that is it
didn't occur to me, by the way, but there's a really good tip
around thinking about your threestyle core words and defining
those very clearly. So when you sometimes put an
outfit and the outfit fits slightly off, it maybe is not

(51:11):
quite matching those core words that you want your style to to
feel like. And I think that the best way to
notice that evolution is that you start to notice that your
course time was evolved. So I always when people ask me,
also think that they need to notstress so much about finding the

(51:32):
stars. So kind of more of a process of
personal creation. So I do think I'm I'm with the
social reality. I still think Pinterest for
these these the best. Just go and create a bunch of
stores for different things. I like the call outs of making
it your own. That's beautiful.

(51:52):
Yeah, I think my advice is the same thing that I tell myself on
a fairly regular basis, which isjust to remind myself that, you
know, you're here for a reason. You've earned it.
And your boss, your collaborators, your teams, they
put you here for a reason and they believe in you for a
reason. And that reason is your

(52:12):
capabilities. And it actually has nothing to
do with your appearance and thatyou earned your place to to be
here and and to belong. And as part of that, like you
can choose to show up any way that you would like.
And that's something that helps me feel like I've earned it and
I have some space to to play around and yeah, that I deserve

(52:35):
to be here. I.
Think there's something really. So first of all, I think that I
Christina, I think that's something that I think everybody
needs to be needs to think about, especially for sort of
men who are listening and being able to decouple in some ways
and sort of acknowledge like somebody has achieved a certain
thing and trusting that they know that work and that like

(52:59):
what you wear is immaterial to that is important.
It's I'm thinking back to the beginning of this conversation
and the ways in which everybody here the psychological effect on
themselves that that fashion haslike the tool that fashion is to
tell you tell yourself a story about you and how that evolves.

(53:19):
I just all, I think that your story, what you said about like
how your style evolves over timeis so powerful.
For my part, the thing that I'vebeen thinking about is like for
me, 'cause I also like, like you, Melinda, in the way that
you kind of identify. Like I didn't, I wasn't like
popped out into the world with some innate sense of style in
any way, shape or form. And so to me, I've, I have

(53:43):
treated figuring out how to dress and the clothes that I
select as in, in ways that Giselle, you said are about as
much about artistic expression as anything else.
And developing taste and developing aesthetic and going
into stores and just looking at everything, trying things on and
intentionally picking things that make me just a little bit

(54:05):
uncomfortable that it looks likeit's gone a little bit too far.
Not that big. Not I mean, it can be, you can.
The point is, you can wear anything you want more or less,
but in terms of what the effect that it has on you, there's
something about being slightly outside your comfort zone that
for me as a man in this industry, creating some

(54:27):
discomfort or some doubt in whatI believe to be true about
myself extends to the people around me.
And that to me has been a reallyvaluable point of connection
that I've been able to make withcolleagues who don't dress in
the uniform. And that's been and that's, that
is a taste that I've cultivated and a willingness that I've

(54:48):
cultivated to put myself in a space that's different.
I kind of honest, you want to use that as a jumping off point
to talk a little bit about like a outfit style stuff that you
like. You've talked a lot about the
complications of this and if youknow and if you want to go back
to some of that, that's I'm veryhappy to.

(55:08):
But I'm really curious, you know, tell me about your
favorite outfits or looks, things that you enjoy, including
product recommendations. How many hours do we have?
From a highlighter perspective, if you want to be seen from the
moon and shine as bright as possible, I can recommend the

(55:30):
Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez highlighter.
That's what I use and it's the brightest one that I've been
able to find. And it's not glitter and I love
it. From a fashion perspective, I'm
very into like oversized silhouettes or I guess just like
attention in a silhouette, right?
So like oversized pants, the absolute biggest, widest pants
that I can find. I think maybe a couple of us

(55:52):
have that in common on this call.
So we'll take all the recommendations for the widest
legs possible, but also some tension in that silhouette,
right? If everything's the biggest you
can find, sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't.
So either, you know, the inverted triangle or a triangle.
I try to like make shapes with my silhouettes and very often
that includes comically large pieces.

(56:13):
Nice. It's like geometry.
I love that. Exactly.
On that being stuff, very nice clothes so I'm a big fan so you
should check them out. I think for me a lot that I read
also has to do with the texture of the clothes.
I'm more of a clothes and shoes and so on than makeup.

(56:34):
I very rarely wear makeup. But the texture I think there is
something that appeals to the eye but also appears to other
senses. And for this I always recommend
to check the labels of the materials the clothes is made.
You can read a little bit. It's not too long to read, but
it will take you a long way on reading how sometimes clothes

(56:59):
that even is very expensive, is made of very cheap materials
that also have a very bad environmental factor.
But also it won't feel that good.
It won't breathe well, it won't like polyester, won't reflect
light the same way silk does. And sometimes brand do try to
charge you the same. So, so I think especially

(57:21):
nowadays, I think that would be one of my biggest things that I
like to do and I reckon people to do is just check the
materials and try to to look forlike cotton, wool, silk like
materials that have been more natural, they last longer, they
look better. That would be one of my
recommendations. It's a really good idea.
Like, do you have anything in terms of, you know, the way you

(57:43):
like to style things or so that you really like to do?
Yeah, I think I have a couple ofthings in mind.
So I think one over the years that I, I realized that I really
like is I like my water to be quite versatile.
So I have been in a way converging to a certain number
of colors that I love. And so that allows me to mix and

(58:07):
match almost everything in a way.
So I think finding finding that has been quite interesting for
me. So I sometimes people joke that
they always see me wearing like white, blue, brown, and there's
some truth to that. There are some cool core colors
that I use way more than others.I think in terms of shades, I do

(58:28):
love skirts and dresses. I still do Tank has some beaten
it out of me. Congrats, more power to you.
I do think they in average I I have a lot more reliably
confident pants, pants. You have to try hard for them to
be comfortable, wear skirts and or a dress.

(58:48):
It's just somewhat much. And I think the other thing that
I love is knee high boots in autumn winter.
So I'm very excited about this. The season is starting again.
I did. I just bought my first ones, I
think because they have relatively large feet, like
shoes have been really tricky for a long time.

(59:08):
Very grateful for some of the progress in that industry.
But I did just again, I've been wearing them every day.
They're wonderful. They're just flat, but they're
knee highs and they're just thisweather right here.
So good. Thank you.
I hope you can wear yours again soon.
So I'll jump in and share my recommendations and stop me if I

(59:29):
ramble on too long because I could talk literally for hours
about this. Could do a separate session upon
them. So I'll start with my bags
because there's a bag, a bag brand that I absolutely love
called Vendula. They specialize in shop front
bags and most conferences that I'm at you'll find me with one

(59:50):
of their bags. I've got 8 of them at this point
because they're just too cute and too it's too addictive to to
buy just buy the next new one that they have.
So every season they come out with different designs.
But at this point, I've got a bag in the shape of a sushi
shop, One that looks like a cat Cafe, one that is a movie
theater, one that's a library. So there are all different ways

(01:00:15):
to again, show different parts of of my personality, but I get
so many random strangers give mecompliments about those bags
whenever, as I said, whenever I'm at an event, but also just
when I'm on the tube or I'm out and about, people will stop me
and ask where the bag is from, which I love because it's a nice

(01:00:39):
yeah conversation starter. These are so good.
I'm just going to very quickly. I was, I had to obviously look
this up on the side and I will just say they'd have a pony club
thing. Like I used to ride horses, not
really regularly because we couldn't afford it, but and
there's one that just has all the like just one bag with all
the like pony club medals and stuff that you can get.
I really I need this in my life.Every single season they come

(01:01:02):
out with about 10 different bag designs and every year I'm like
oh, I need to add this new one because this looks too cute and
I can't not get it. Mostly because the first time I
ever noticed it, it was AI noticed a bag in their sale,
which was a movie theater and what I didn't buy it at the time
because I was like I don't need another bag I've got too many

(01:01:23):
already. And what I didn't realize at the
time though was that the lights in the movie theater signage
actually turned on. There was a little flip in the
bag to turn the lights on, and Ididn't realize, otherwise I
would have immediately gotten it.
And I think that's six years ago.
And that bag hasn't come out since.
So I also often get asked whether or not I'm willing to

(01:01:46):
sell some of my bags because some of these are, yeah, limited
edition. They come out once and then
never again. So yeah, that's my first
recommendation. Then the second one is for my
lipsticks. Most of my lipsticks nowadays
come from a brand called Besame and they're based in the US and
they specialize in vintage replica colours.

(01:02:10):
So they find old colours from the 1920s, Nineteen 40s,
fifties, 60s and then recreate the colour.
So the lipstick I'm wearing today actually is called Vixery
Red. And it's the lipstick that's the
US Army kind of I think designedfor women to wear during World
War 2 because Hitler at a certain point said red lipstick

(01:02:33):
is is a no go. So they as a response to that
helped women wear more red lipstick in the US because it
was like, well this is a this isanti Hitler.
Oh wait, to show the Nazis what's up.
Love that. I have read the same story and I
saw and they distributed in the factories to women that were

(01:02:54):
going to factory jumps, to temporary factory jumps.
They would distribute them for free and it became a very big
thing. And I mean, I wasn't sure.
I wasn't going to mention it. You weren't going to mention it
in this round to say like, come on, places.
But yeah, I first discovered thebrand because it's got used in

(01:03:15):
the TV show Agent Carter, because it was a true to life
like lipstick color from that era.
And ever since then I've totallyjust fall in love with it
because it's also one of the best staying lipsticks.
I put it on once during the day and I don't have to touch it for
the rest of the day basically, which in my view is is the

(01:03:36):
biggest selling point for a lipstick.
Then in terms of I guess my style fashion, I'd say I mostly
wear dresses or tops and skirts.I don't really do jeans.
I've not found a comfortable jeans to wear for 10 years at
this point, so I'm just not buttered.
But lately I've been leaning more towards again that 1950s

(01:03:58):
silhouettes. So kind of a line swing style
dresses, most of them with pockets.
I love a good pocket. I also need them.
I feel for whenever I'm doing conference talk so that there's
a spot to put the the microphonethingy, whatever you want to
call it. The belt clip thing.
Yeah. Exactly.

(01:04:19):
So I tried to make sure that most of the dresses I have some
form of pockets, at least the ones that I'm wearing for
conferences. And then I think in terms of
color, I just, I gravitate towards prints, I think a lot,
but the types of prints I have are all over the place.
I think I've got a bit of a bad track record in terms of a lot

(01:04:40):
of the brands that I used to love stopped stopped running in
recent years. And then the final brand I'll
mention is my favorite shoe brand.
Unfortunately, I don't wear heels anymore because I hurt my
foot a couple of years ago and still haven't recovered from it.
But there's a brand called United Nude and it started by it
was started by an architect. So all the shoes have these

(01:05:05):
amazing sort of designs. There is one type of shoe that
is almost like a Mobius strip. There's another shoe where the
heel, I don't even know how to describe it.
The heel comes out of the front parts.
My wedding shoes come from that from from them.
And they were the type of beforeI found the Vangela bags, I

(01:05:26):
would wear the United new suits and I always got comments on
like, where did you get those shoes from?
So that kind of I think sums me up in, in terms of mice type of
fashion. Well, finding things that people
go, where did you get that from?Nice, that is a beautiful list
on this deck. I have so many tabs open it's
going to be a problem. David, I saw you nodding with

(01:05:48):
the mention of United nude HHH you heard of them?
My partner wears United nude shoes.
I really like them and I agree. That's like, there's something
about a really unusual shoe thattends to garner attention.
I my my signature move is a Calzero medical clog.
It's like a silicone rubber clogand the the coloration is like

(01:06:10):
really bright. And I, the first pair I bought
were like royal blue with a yellow heel strap.
So I wanted my foot to look likean IKEA bag, just which I think
you'll appreciate. Melinda the so I think those
shoes are like, those are the shoes I often go for.
I'll also extend Melinda from your shop front bags to a Dutch
maker of bags called Rami Dabamithat are all food bags.

(01:06:34):
So I'd gotten my partner for herbirthday once a like a Swedish
Princess cake bag. It looks exactly like a cake and
it is an absolutely beautiful bag and very functional.
But I love a statement piece like that.
So yeah, I hear you on United Nude.
I think they're great shoes, butit's clear that you appreciate

(01:06:55):
the more astonishing things in life.
I've just looked at the website and yeah I need one of these
bags I feel. David, anything else?
Because I know I had approached you about those shoes at some
point. There any anything else?
That you Yeah, I think for me, my so it's, I was thinking about
what Christina was saying about about really wide leg pants,

(01:07:17):
which I call Ding Dong pants. And I've always liked a good
Ding Dong pant ever since ever since the I was going out a lot
more. But as Christina has noted, as
has my as my partner, I, it is generally questionable to wear
everything giant and baggy. And I've what I've discovered
more recently is that I tend to like sort of really boxy, really

(01:07:41):
boxy shirts that drape really well, usually that have like
ones like strange accent or construction quality.
And then for and there's a number of brands that do that.
There's a brand called Archie that I think is a New York based
brand that makes really interesting that has really good
cuts, like beautifully constructed clothes that that

(01:08:02):
drape really well and I really love.
And then for pants, lately I've gone with a more of a tapered
leg, which gives me both the sort of Ding Dong experience in
for my giant thighs and then, you know, more of a conventional
industry standard ankle and thattends to pair really well.
So those, and then I have AI have a just really unhealthy

(01:08:23):
spectacles addiction that that I've developed over the last few
years as my eyes have gone South.
And so that my move now for the for really standing out is just
like glasses. And there's a place in
Williamsburg where I live in Brooklyn called Atelier Mira
that I shop at that that is my, it's an unhealthy relationship

(01:08:44):
that I have with them, but they love me.
An unhealthy relationship, whichI may say David has graciously
extended to me. I mean, I've also like, I grew
up really almost blind. It's not even a joke.
But so glasses were really expensive.
I've been really happy that they've become so much more
affordable. And it's to the point that it's
becoming a problem. The ones that I'm wearing now.

(01:09:04):
I did get in New York shortly after you and I went glasses
shopping. And I am trying to figure out
how to get glasses from the US to Germany now on a regular
basis because I really love the stuff they're making.
I think it worked though, because when when I I was
connected to the call, one of the first thing I thought it was
like, oh cool glasses. There's also not much else off

(01:09:26):
the face to see just to be like awesome.
And I'm fine with Sally anythingbecause we're almost at time
unfortunately. Sally anything that you want to.
Want to try and get sponsorship for it?
That's my plan. We'll come out of this call with
Yeah, I one of the. Things that I can't get past is
the wide leg trouser element of,I was actually thinking about

(01:09:47):
this the other day of how they're everywhere and also
corduroy. And it just makes me think of
being 16, having the really baggy trousers that, you know,
were like ripped at the bottom, layered T-shirts, pop punk, emo
music. And just thinking back to that
amount of time ago was, you know, going from the 90s to the

(01:10:09):
70s or something and how you think about that fashion and how
it all comes around in cycles. So I now feel really old, like,
Oh my goodness, I, I have lived to see these cycles come back
around again. So I haven't quite been able to
dive back into that trend. So yeah, I think I'm currently
much more still in my dresses era, similar to some others on

(01:10:31):
this call also. I do, I don't tend to go for
what I have in the past, but currently not stuck in anyone
brand or anything. I tend to see kind of like
individual things and go, I lovethat pattern or I love that cut
or whatever and try to mix that with some more kind of standard
things. I guess, you know, in terms of
the sort of the capsule wardrobeapproach, trying to have not too

(01:10:54):
many clashing patterns and the stuff like that all going on.
But I would say one of the things that I've really enjoyed
doing, and this is more of a recent discovery for me is what
are they called a semi cured gelnails.
So they're basically sort of stickers that you put on and
then cure. And there are some beautiful
designs out there. And I've really loved that

(01:11:15):
convenience of being able to give myself like an actual nice
manicure at home that lasts for weeks.
And then you don't have to go through the rigmarole of kind
of, you know, getting it off properly and everything there.
So that's been one of my kind oflittle treats to myself.
But yeah, other than that, I think I, I have kind of a

(01:11:36):
wardrobe that I feel quite happywith at the moment.
I've got pieces that have memories as well for me.
So some of my favorite, I think the dress that I was wearing
when when we spoke was one that I picked up on a really special
trip to Japan. And that was kind of like just
one piece that surprisingly I fit into.
But yeah, I've kind of got little bits here and there that

(01:11:57):
that mean things to me as well. And so I think that ties back to
what we're saying about the confidence and, you know, some
of those threads that you want to take through for yourself,
that helps me do that as well. So yeah, really, really kind of
enjoying clothes at the moment generally.
Kind of also beautiful way to wrap this.
I would really love to continue talking with all of you.
I hope you will get the chance. Thank you so so much.

(01:12:26):
I'm so incredibly. Grateful to be able to have had
this conversation because what stood out to me most was how
much emotional work goes into something as basic as getting
dressed for work. This calculating, the code
switching, and the constant awareness of how your appearance
might support or potentially undermine your credibility.
It's exhausting. And the big question that we all

(01:12:49):
wrestled with at the heart of this is how much of myself and
my differentness can I show and how much will I risk in the
process? And of course, with fashion and
style choices, there are some decisions and choices that we
can make. With some things, like race, for
example, that's not a choice that is actually possible.

(01:13:10):
And I also heard something else in all this, this deliberate
choice that these leaders make to Createspace for others, like
Melinda wearing dresses to hackathons, Sally speaking on
stage in bold bright colours, Christina showing up with quote
UN quote, too much highlighter. No such thing, I think, or
David's colourful medical clogs.Each small act of authenticity

(01:13:33):
and of showing up isn't just forthem, but it becomes a signal to
someone else that they too can do this, and that they too can
be long. I started giving conference
talks in 2014, and ever since then I've been joking that I'm
on a mission to bring style to the tech industry.
And it's great to know that I'm not alone in this.

(01:13:53):
Changing an industry's pattern recognition takes time and
repeated exposure. It takes people in positions of
visibility who look different, who do excellent work, and who
are clear authorities on their topics.
It's not fair that the burden falls on those who already face
additional barriers. But here we are.
And I'm glad for all of those who do this that you're here.

(01:14:15):
So if you're listening to this and struggling with similar
questions, you're not alone. And if you're in a position to
make it easier for others to show up authentically, or you
want to do more of that yourself, that matters too.
Give yourself permission to careabout this stuff.
It's not superficial. It's about identity, confidence
and belonging. Start small if you need to, and

(01:14:37):
remember what Christina said. You're here for a reason, You've
earned it, and that reason is your capabilities.
My biggest thanks and gratitude goes to Sally, Grisella,
Christina, Belinda and David forsuch an honest and generous
conversation. The fact that we were able to
find the time that works for allof us across multiple time
zones, and that you dedicated 90minutes of your incredibly busy

(01:15:00):
days to having this chat is still just beyond comprehension
to me. And I'm so grateful for all of
you and to you who are listeningto this.
Leadership Confidential was created, produced and presented
by me, Lena Reinhard. Our guest voices were not
digitally modified this time. Theme, original composition and
mixing by Esteban Elpino. Production assistance, guest

(01:15:22):
support and social media by Slice Stark.
Thank you for listening.