August 13, 2025 • 29 mins
All-or-nothing thinking is a common mental pattern in children that can be frustrating for parents who want to help their kids gain perspective and stay emotionally grounded. We explore what's happening beneath the surface when kids think in extremes, and how we can gently support more balanced and resilient thinking.
• Children's brains are still developing, especially in the prefrontal cortex responsible for complex thought and emotional regulation
• Binary thinking (black and white, all good or all bad) is a normal developmental stage, not a flaw to be fixed
• The emotional centers of a child's brain develop before their reasoning centers, explaining many extreme reactions
• Identifying when your child is stuck in all-or-nothing thinking is the first step to helping them
• Validate emotions without reinforcing extreme statements - say "losing feels frustrating" instead of "you don't always lose"
• Model continuum thinking by verbalizing your own balanced thoughts out loud
• Use language that adds nuance like "sometimes" and "a part of me feels..."
• Praise effort, courage, and learning rather than just outcomes to build a growth mindset
• Recognize that moving from all-or-nothing to nuanced thinking is a developmental journey
*Did you know?
I'm currently opening a few one-to-one coaching spots for moms who are ready to go deeper and get personalized support as they build their own resilience. If that sounds like something you're craving, just head to LeeGerman.com and click on one-to-one coaching. We'll set up a free call to talk about where you are, where you want to be, and whether coaching is the right next step for you.
If you'd like to get the show notes for this episode, head to:
https://leighgermann.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why do kids get stuck in all-or-nothing thinking and
what can we do to help?
Today, we're exploring what'shappening beneath the surface
when kids think in extremes, andhow we can gently support more
balanced and resilient thinking.
This is Leadership Parenting,episode number 105, helping Kids
Break Free from All-or-NothingThinking.
(01:00):
Hey, everyone, it's so fun to beback with you guys for a little
bit today.
Recently, I have received quitea few questions about how we can
work with our children's all ornothing thinking.
In a previous episode I thinkit was episode 102, we talked
about how all or nothingthinking, or binary thinking,
shows up in our own thinking asadults.
Today, I would really like tocontinue that conversation and
answer some of the questionsI've been getting, because I
(01:22):
think once you start to spot allor nothing thinking.
You know what it looks like.
You're going to start to spotit in other people's thinking
and, as a parent, this kind ofputs us in an interesting
situation, doesn't it?
Where we can see it in our kids.
We hear what they're saying andwe kind of know what it is, but
what can we do about it, right?
So let's look at what'shappening inside your child's
(01:44):
brain with this kind of thinkingand maybe this will change how
we can respond or help us knowhow to respond when our kids get
stuck in these kinds ofthinking patterns.
So today we're going to explorewhy, what all or nothing
thinking is especially in themind of a child, why kids seem
to be wired to think this way,at least in the beginning.
How to spot mind of a child,why kids seem to be wired to
think this way, at least in thebeginning.
(02:06):
How to spot it in your child'severyday words and behaviors and
, finally, how to gently helpthem begin that developmental
journey toward much moreflexible and nuanced thinking.
So let me start with a question.
I want you to really kind of goback in your memory.
It may be recent, it may be awhile ago, and I want you to
really kind of go back in yourmemory.
It may be recent, it may be awhile ago, and I want you to
look to see if you rememberhaving your child ever say
(02:29):
something like I'm terrible atthis after getting one math
problem wrong, or maybe nobodylikes me because a friend didn't
want to play that day, or eventhis is the worst day ever after
a really small disappointment.
These are all examples of all ornothing thinking, and it's also
called black and white thinkingor the technical name for it is
(02:50):
called binary thinking.
It's a common mental pattern inchildren and it could be really
frustrating for us as parentswho want to help our kids gain
perspective and stay emotionallygrounded.
So just for a quick review, allor nothing thinking is what we
call a cognitive distortion,where situations or people or
feelings are viewed in extremes.
(03:13):
Something is either perfect ora disaster, all good or all bad,
always or never.
There's not an in-between.
That's why we call it binarytwo options, and it can show up
in statements like I'm the worstplayer on the team, or if I
can't do it right, I'm not goingto do it at all, or you never
listen to me, or everyone ismean, or I always lose.
(03:38):
When you hear always and never,it's a little clue that we've
got that binary thinking.
Now, for adults, this kind ofthinking is familiar.
We do it too, especially whenwe're stressed or emotionally
overwhelmed.
But for our kids, I think thisisn't just a habit.
It is considered a part oftheir brain development.
Let's talk about the brain fora minute, because this is where
(04:00):
so much of this starts to makesense, I think to us.
Children's brains are stilldeveloping, especially in the
prefrontal cortex.
That's the area responsible forcomplex thought, emotional
regulation, planning,decision-making.
This part of the brain maturesgradually.
It's not fully developed reallyuntil a person's like in their
twenties, mid twenties.
(04:20):
In contrast, the amygdala,which is in the middle part of
your brain, it handles emotionsand threat detection and it's
much more active and reactive inchildren.
This means that when a childfaces something frustrating or
overwhelming, their brain ismore likely to jump into a
reactive and emotional staterather than a reflective and
(04:42):
kind of reasonable one.
Now, don't you think this isjust earth shattering?
When I learned this brainscience as I was studying
developmental stages in childrenfor years and years, we really
had a limit.
I'm dating myself, but we had alimited information about these
kinds of structures in thebrain as this became common
(05:06):
knowledge in my field.
It was so exciting.
Because when you understandthat there are different parts
of the brain that develop kindof in different layers and then
children's behavior just cannotbe looked at in the same way as
we look at adults' behavior andwe do this all the time, you
guys, we look at our kids and wesee it through kind of our
(05:28):
understanding of what adultsthink and how we think.
But when you understand that achild's prefrontal cortex the
big powerhouse of reasoning andunderstanding and holding
abstract concepts and being ableto kind of delay gratification
when you understand that all ofthat part of a child's brain is
(05:49):
slower to develop and that theirthreat reaction and their high
emotional centers are the firstto develop, doesn't their
behavior just start to make somuch more sense?
This is like a eureka moment.
I hope it is for all of us.
As parents, we should know thatwhen we leave the hospital with
our babies that this is a braindevelopment process that we're
(06:12):
watching our children go throughand we really need to be clued
into it.
And because of this braindevelopmental process nuanced
thinking you know, the abilityto see shades of gray, to hold
two feelings at once, toconsider context, to have
abstract thinking, that's alater stage skill.
(06:32):
In early childhood.
Kids are not wired for thatkind of complexity yet they
operate with simple, moreconcrete mental categories.
Just easier and safer for ayoung brain to put things in
buckets right Of safe or unsafe,right or wrong, good or bad,
and this is rudimentary butessential early on.
(06:52):
In fact, if you listened to myepisode last week on your all or
nothing thinking as a mom, youmight remember we talked about
how even our adult brains cravethat kind of simplicity, that
kind of order with only twooptions, especially when we're
under pressure.
That desire for clarity andsafety is something that we
actually still share with ourchildren, but for them it's
(07:15):
amplified because theircognitive systems aren't
finished building the bridgesyet.
That's not a flaw, that'sdevelopmental.
So for me this makes a lot ofsense when I can understand that
what I'm seeing in my childrenis an underdeveloped skill.
It helps me to know what to doabout it.
And though it's common for kidsto think in all or nothing, it
(07:35):
doesn't mean that it's helpfulto them.
In fact, even early inchildhood we can see kids
getting stuck in patterns ofthis binary thinking that really
can cause problems for them.
Their expectations can be sobig, kind of on the all side of
the continuum, that can set themup for a lot of disappointment
and then even low self-esteemwhen they don't hit those
(07:57):
expectations Like I'm going tobe the best at this, or I'm
going to win the game right now,or every game, and when they
don't there is inevitabledisappointment.
At the other extreme, in thenothing range, we see kids who
view a situation from thatnothing side of the continuum.
One mistake wipes out all theirhard work or their achievements
(08:19):
.
They can go into situationswith expectations of failure,
which often dampens their hope,their creativity, even makes
them hang out on the sidelinesand not participate.
So usually all or nothingthinking becomes apparent mostly
when things haven't gone theway that our kids want them to
go.
When things go perfectly whichisn't going to happen all the
(08:40):
time, but once in a while theysay they're going to win the
game and they do win the game.
So in a weird way that kind ofreinforces their all or nothing
thinking.
Certainly isn't a reason whythey get upset.
The problem comes when thingsdon't go the way that they want
them to go when they findthemselves on the other end of
the spectrum.
If they didn't win every game,then they aren't in the all
(09:03):
category, which can mean then tothem that they're in the
nothing category.
And when they start in thenothing category because of
their fear or past experiencesor just their belief that they
aren't going to be successful,then they usually stay in the
nothing category mostly becauseit becomes this self-fulfilling
prophecy.
They usually don't engage.
(09:23):
So I think this is an importantthing for all of us to note.
Can any of us ever fit into theall in quotes, air quotes
category?
When do we ever win every game?
Even the most elite athletesdon't win every game.
This is the core problem withbinary thinking, with only two
options and one of them beingunattainable.
(09:45):
Perfection, right.
We inevitably will all end upin the nothing category.
Here's some ways that you mightsee this kind of all or nothing
bind happen in your kid's life.
You might notice your childrensaying things like this is the
worst day ever, I'll never begood at reading.
You always say no, no one likesme, I hate school.
(10:08):
These are usually very strongemotional responses, not
necessarily factual statements,and the emotional charge behind
them can make parents feel sodefensive, like they don't want
their kids to be thinking thatway, or very helpless, like they
just kind of don't want theirkids to be thinking that way, or
very helpless, like they justkind of don't know what to do to
help them.
I think it's very natural forus to feel the urge to correct
(10:29):
our kids immediately, to say, ofcourse, people like you, or
that's not true.
Yesterday you had a great day.
Or don't say that You're reallygood at reading.
But here's, I think, the key.
Instead of rushing to correctthe content of what your child
is saying, I think it's helpfulto try to recognize the pattern
(10:50):
that they're in.
That pattern, that extremethinking.
It's actually a window intowhat your child's brain is ready
for and what it is stillgrowing into.
When we understand that thisall or nothing thinking is kind
of part of that developmentalprocess they're going through, I
think it can be helpful for usto stop seeing it so much as a
(11:13):
problem to fix and to kind ofpanic about and instead to see
it as a skill that needs to growin our children, because our
job is not to force nuance ontoour children before they're
ready.
I don't think we really can,even if we try.
Our job is to help them buildthe capacity to think more
flexibly as their brains mature.
(11:35):
And this is especiallyimportant because this kind of
binary thinking can reallyintensify our kids' emotional
responses.
It can cause them to kind ofhang back and delay the
development of their self-esteem.
It can distort relationshipswhen they're seeing the negative
.
You know, you always yell at meor no one ever talks to me.
(11:56):
When they're focused on thenegative, they're not able to
see the balance that's inrelationships, and it can often
lead them to give up easily.
You know I can't do it, I'mnever going to be successful, so
I'm not going to try.
And I think that if we leavethese patterns unchecked,
unprocessed, they can becomedefault modes of thinking even
(12:17):
into adulthood.
So though we can't force thisnuanced skill, this nuanced
thinking, into our children'sthinking patterns, we can start
to spot where they're gettingstuck and do a few things to
help them get unstuck, to startdevelop a more balanced, nuanced
way of thinking.
(12:38):
Here are a few ways to do that,a few strategies.
Number one the first thing todo is to notice that they are
kind of stuck in that all ornothing thinking, and you can
actually very gently point thatout to them.
You might say, hmm, that soundslike an all or nothing thought.
Do you know what that means?
(12:58):
That means that you have twochoices either it's all or it's
nothing.
Can we look at what's inbetween?
Now, that might not be aconversation you have with your
two-year-old, but as yourchildren get older and you start
to have these kinds ofconversations especially not in
the heat of the moment sometimesit's hard for anyone to be
(13:21):
taught to really learn a conceptwhen they're super upset.
But as you're talking about it,as you're processing what's
going on with your children,just I think like there is
that's just straight upexplaining.
Hey, I think that there's thisthing called all or nothing
thinking.
Let me draw it out on a pieceof paper for you, right?
Either we have to win everytime, or the other option is we
(13:43):
lose every time, and the truthis neither of these really are
the way that it happens all thetime.
Sometimes we win, sometimes welose, and you draw it out on a
continuum for kids.
Another thing you could say tothem is wait, hold on, let's see
if, when you say never, ifthat's really true, or maybe
(14:03):
just it didn't happen this timeand that was really
disappointing.
So the goal here is not toshame or even correct your
children.
You don't want to say don't saythat or you're wrong but offer
them another alternative so thatthey know that you've heard
them, you understand them andthey're not doing it wrong.
(14:24):
You're trying to help them,broaden the way they see it.
Number two validate theiremotion, not the extreme.
Instead of saying you don'talways lose, which kind of comes
out to our kids like we'rearguing with them, you can say
instead, it feels reallyfrustrating to lose, doesn't it?
Or you really wanted that to goa different way.
(14:48):
So, as we're doing this,actually we're just setting
aside altogether the whole allor nothing thing and we're
finding the emotion underneathwhat they're saying,
understanding that it makessense that their brain is going
to go to all or nothing whenthey're disappointed because
they are having a hard timeconceiving of the idea that this
could go in a way that theydidn't want it to go to all or
nothing.
(15:08):
When they're disappointedbecause they are having a hard
time conceiving of the idea thatthis could go in a way that
they didn't want it to go andthat it might not be the end of
the world.
It might be okay that they'redisappointed.
That disappointment feels likea threat.
Their brain's going quickly tothe binary option.
So we're keeping the emotionaldoor open with our kids and
we're redirecting them away fromthat distortion where they're
(15:32):
concluding that it's all bad orit's all good and obviously
they're not having a problem ifit's all good right.
So all of this usually comes upwhen kids are really upset.
Number three we can modelcontinuum thinking in our own
lives, and that's what we callit Thinking on a continuum,
(15:52):
thinking on a scale of colorsright, where there's black and
there's white but there's allthe colors in between.
How do you do that?
How do you model that for yourchildren so they catch you
thinking that way out loud?
I think this is a challenge forus because our thinking
naturally happens internally.
You realize how much goes on inour head and we never say it
(16:14):
out loud.
This is something that you canactually choose to do in front
of your child.
You can say today was tricky, Ididn't get everything done, but
I did make some progress.
So I'm kind of a little bitdisappointed, but I can see that
there was still good that gotaccomplished today.
Now your child might look atyou like gosh, mom, why are you
(16:36):
talking to yourself?
But if you do this out loudwithout trying to teach your
children, especially when yourchildren are really young, they
are just so casually listeningto everything we say.
I mean our, our teens do too,but our kids are like our little
buddies with us all the time.
Right the other day I was makinga cake and I messed it up Like
(16:57):
I think I just didn't get theingredients in there right, or I
don't know what it was, but itjust did not rise like it was
supposed to.
I said out loud to the kidsthat were all there helping me
bake.
I said, oh my goodness, usuallycakes come out really well.
This one didn't.
I wonder what we did wrong.
I bet we could try again Inside.
(17:18):
To be honest, I was reallyfrustrated.
I wanted to kind of go to whyis this happening?
I don't have time for this.
This is the most terrible thingin the world.
But if you can catch ithappening in your own thinking
and you put yourself back on acontinuum which is good for you,
by the way right, this isn'tjust for our kids, this is going
to make you have a much happierlife.
If you're able to do this, whenyou do it, we want you to say
(17:40):
it out loud so that your kidscan hear you say it.
Powerful, powerful modeling.
Kids can hear you say itPowerful, powerful modeling.
Number four let's use languagethat adds nuance.
We can have phrases like hmm,you're getting ready for your
baseball game.
Maybe you'll win today, ormaybe the other team will win
today.
I don't know.
(18:00):
I come from a family of sportsfanatics.
That would seem a little odd ifI said that.
It would seem probably a littlelike I'm betraying my kids'
team.
But you know what, guys?
That is the truth, isn't it?
We play games all the time.
In board games.
We play games.
Kids play games againstcomputers all the time.
We play games with teams.
(18:21):
No one wins all the time.
The truth is, some days we'regoing to win and some days we're
not.
So, using that language once ina while, if it doesn't make your
kids crazy once in a while,that's going to be helpful.
Sometimes we can say oh,sometimes we get just what we
thought we were going to get andsometimes we're disappointed.
Or it's possible that there'ssome other reasons why your
(18:45):
friend didn't call you todaylike they said they were going
to call you, so it's possiblethat opens up a range of other
possibilities besides all ornothing right.
It's also helpful when we startto explain that there are
different parts of us.
A part of me is happy that wegot to go with our friends today
to the park, and a part of meis really sad that we had to go
(19:06):
home.
Got to go with our friendstoday to the park, and a part of
me is really sad that we had togo home.
What we're doing is starting touse language to give nuance to
all the different feelings thatwe have.
This is really part of whatwe're teaching our children,
even in acknowledging theirfeelings right.
The more language they have todescribe what's going on inside
of them, the easier it is toregulate their emotions.
(19:26):
I don't know exactly why thatseems like such a simple formula
.
I think it's the best way weknow how to describe it is that
the brain likes to know what'sgoing on and when we can give it
an answer and it's a littlemore nuanced, it gives us a lot
more space to make sense of theworld around us.
(19:48):
So we're helping children thinkin terms of gradients, shades,
rather than absolutes.
Number five we want to praiseeffort, courage, curiosity and
learning, not just the outcomes.
This helps kids value thejourney, not just the result.
One of the most powerful waysto help them move out of all or
(20:10):
nothing thinking is to teachthem the principles of growth
mindset.
I don't know if you rememberexactly what that is.
We have some great episodes ongrowth mindset, but a quick
overview.
Psychologist Carol Dweckresearched growth mindset.
Showed us that the belief thatabilities and intelligence can
develop through effort, learningand persistence, and that
(20:34):
they're not just fixed.
In other words, you weren'tborn smart or you were born dumb
, or you were born talented oryou were born like missing the
talent, intelligence, abilities.
The things that we learn happenbecause of the journey of
learning them the ups and downs,the shades of gray right In
(20:57):
between the all or nothing.
This is an ideal way to offeryour child more than two rigid
categories and instead give thema flexible roadmap for growth.
So we want kids to understandthat mistakes are part of
learning, challenges areopportunities and that trying
again is a strength, not aweakness.
And so we're helping them letgo of the belief that they
(21:17):
either have what it takes orthey don't.
So growth mindset language cansound like you're still learning
.
That's exactly where you'resupposed to be.
Every time you practice, yourbrain is growing.
Mistakes help us figure outwhat we need to learn next.
So I'll pause here.
How much do you believe ingrowth mindset for yourself?
(21:39):
I teach growth mindset, I ampassionate about it and you know
, guys, I still get caught in myown fixed mindset thinking and
my own perfectionistic thinkingand my own all or nothing
thinking.
So the answer is that we applythis to our own thinking and
then we will get better andbetter at teaching it to our
(22:00):
kids.
And the beautiful thing aboutthis approach is that it shifts
your child's identity from beingsomeone who is something right
I'm good at this or I'm bad atthis to someone who's becoming
something I'm working on gettingbetter at this and this helps
take some of that internalpressure away and it just is
hopeful.
And often that's what we needis a little bit of hope to stay
(22:24):
engaged in our lives andactivities rather than just
shutting down.
So we want to praise ourchildren in the process they are
doing, rather than the outcome.
I noticed how you kept going,even when it got hard.
You really worked through thatstep-by-step.
You didn't give up.
That helped you learn.
Now we could say, hey, great,you won the game.
(22:46):
Oh my gosh, that art is justabsolutely perfect.
Or the piece you played at therecital was magnificent.
There's nothing terribly wrongwith those things, except that
they're focused only on theoutcome.
Could we say those things andthen really give an
acknowledgement to all of theprocess that had to happen for
(23:10):
the game to get won, the art toget made, the recital piece to
be beautiful?
That meant there was practice,there were stumbles along the
way, there were things that kidshad to overcome.
The process is what we want topraise and I think that's where
our balanced thinking lives, inthat messy, meaningful middle.
(23:32):
A couple of weeks ago I workedwith a mom on this, with her
seven-year-old daughter who camerunning into the kitchen after
school saying I have no friends.
Seven-year-old daughter whocame running into the kitchen
after school saying I have nofriends.
Everyone was mean to me todayand her mom was about to say
that's not true, you just had aplay date yesterday.
But because we'd been talkingabout this kind of all or
nothing thinking trap, we'd beenworking with her on this
(23:54):
specific little girl that hasgotten kind of caught up in this
all or nothing thinking andshe'd been prepared.
And so instead she triedsomething different, instead of
trying to prove her daughterwrong and she had the data it
was true that her daughter hadseveral friends and she assumed
that everyone was not mean toher.
(24:15):
Instead of arguing with her,she said instead that sounds
really hard, do you want to tellme what happened?
And as her daughter opened up,it became clear that one friend
hadn't saved her a seat at lunch, like she promised, and that
felt huge to this little girl,especially as her brain is still
developing.
It was huge to her and aftertalking it through, her mom said
(24:38):
sometimes one hard moment canfeel like our whole day, but
maybe it was just one tough partin a day, with other moments
too.
Let's see if we can findsomething today that kind of
went better or that you felt wasokay.
This mom was really pleasedbecause this was kind of a
(24:58):
breakthrough for her to get outof that power struggle with her
daughter, trying to almostcommand her to stop thinking so
negatively.
Instead, she kind of went withher daughter and she helped her.
She validated the feelingunderneath.
She got more information andthen she helped her try to shift
over into more nuanced thinking.
(25:19):
Right, not denying that thatwas a painful moment, but I
wonder if maybe there were anyother moments in the day that
felt a little bit more okay.
This can show up in so many waysand I think we have to be
really respectful of our kids.
Keep that trust with them,develop it, keep it strong so
(25:41):
that they will open up to us.
And it's so painful to hear ourchild fall into that trap of
negativity and of doomsday andof all or nothing.
I get it.
I know we want to argue withthem.
We want to prove to them thatthey're wrong, because we don't
want them to feel the pain ofwhat that makes them feel.
But it really helped me to knowthat this is common, so it's
(26:06):
not something we want you topanic about.
Kids all over the country, allover the world, are dealing with
this.
Second, it's something thatthey are going to learn to grow
out of, especially if we helpthem process through it.
Sometimes I think the more weargue with kids about this stuff
, the more they dig their heelsin and they just get committed
(26:27):
to this right they want to proveto us how absolutely true that
belief is that they have, thateverything is terrible.
Sometimes it's more helpful forus to drop that struggle, and
maybe even in that momentthey're not able to have a
conversation about it, but maybelater they will be.
So we have to take a deepbreath, I think.
(26:48):
Recognize that this is ajourney Like do you notice how
we fall into the all or nothingthinking?
Oh my gosh, my kid is nevergoing to learn how to think
differently.
That's also binary thinking.
This is so sneaky.
So take a deep breath,recognize it.
Recognize it when it's in yourown mind, recognize it when it's
in your child's thinking, howit's showing up, and then give
(27:10):
yourself a little bit of time tostart to work on this with your
child.
Actually, your calm, groundedpresence is going to be a bridge
that's going to help them crossfrom that all or nothing
thinking to that more nuancedthinking.
So hopefully after today youcan get a little bit more in the
middle to not have thisthinking be quite so upsetting
(27:31):
to you and start to notice whereyou can intervene with a few
little guides, a few littlehelps for your kids to start
balancing that all or nothingthinking Well, thank you.
Thank you for being here withme again today.
If today's episode gave you alittle bit of an aha moment, you
will definitely want to listento the one we did on all or
(27:53):
nothing thinking for moms if youhaven't, and I really think
that it's so helpful for me togo back every once in a while
and refresh my mind, my memoryon these concepts, because they
kind of even though I know themI deeply know them, and I teach
them they often sometimes justkind of flutter away and I
forget that I have this powerfultool to help me feel better.
(28:16):
And as you start to use it andyou shift your own lens, we're
going to help our children dothe same.
So give it a try, be gentle, bekind with yourself.
As we do this really, reallyhard work as moms.
I look forward to being withyou next week.
Take care If you've beenlistening to this podcast and
(28:37):
feel like these ideas reallyspeak to you, but you're not
sure how to actually apply themin your own life, I want you to
know you don't have to do italone.
I'm currently opening a fewone-to-one coaching spots for
moms who are ready to go deeperand get personalized support as
they build their own resilience.
This is where we takeeverything we talk about here
and we tailor it to your life,your story, your goals.
(28:59):
If that sounds like somethingyou're craving, just head to
LeeGermancom and click onone-to-one coaching.
We'll set up a free call totalk about where you are, where
you want to be and whethercoaching is the right next step
for you.
You can always find me onInstagram @ LeighGermann, or on
my website at LeighGermann.
com.
(29:22):
The Leadership Parenting Podcastis for general information
purposes only.
It is not therapy and shouldnot take the place of meeting
with a qualified mental healthprofessional.
The information on this podcastis not intended to diagnose or
treat any condition, illness ordisease.
It's also not intended to belegal, medical or therapeutic
(29:43):
advice.
Please consult your doctor ormental health professional for
your individual circumstances.
Thanks again and take care.
Why do kids get stuck in all-or-nothing thinking and
what can we do to help?
Today, we're exploring what'shappening beneath the surface
when kids think in extremes, andhow we can gently support more
balanced and resilient thinking.
This is Leadership Parenting,episode number 105, helping Kids
Break Free from All-or-NothingThinking.
(01:00):
Hey, everyone, it's so fun to beback with you guys for a little
bit today.
Recently, I have received quitea few questions about how we can
work with our children's all ornothing thinking.
In a previous episode I thinkit was episode 102, we talked
about how all or nothingthinking, or binary thinking,
shows up in our own thinking asadults.
Today, I would really like tocontinue that conversation and
answer some of the questionsI've been getting, because I
(01:22):
think once you start to spot allor nothing thinking.
You know what it looks like.
You're going to start to spotit in other people's thinking
and, as a parent, this kind ofputs us in an interesting
situation, doesn't it?
Where we can see it in our kids.
We hear what they're saying andwe kind of know what it is, but
what can we do about it, right?
So let's look at what'shappening inside your child's
(01:44):
brain with this kind of thinkingand maybe this will change how
we can respond or help us knowhow to respond when our kids get
stuck in these kinds ofthinking patterns.
So today we're going to explorewhy, what all or nothing
thinking is especially in themind of a child, why kids seem
to be wired to think this way,at least in the beginning.
How to spot mind of a child,why kids seem to be wired to
think this way, at least in thebeginning.
(02:06):
How to spot it in your child'severyday words and behaviors and
, finally, how to gently helpthem begin that developmental
journey toward much moreflexible and nuanced thinking.
So let me start with a question.
I want you to really kind of goback in your memory.
It may be recent, it may be awhile ago, and I want you to
really kind of go back in yourmemory.
It may be recent, it may be awhile ago, and I want you to
look to see if you rememberhaving your child ever say
(02:29):
something like I'm terrible atthis after getting one math
problem wrong, or maybe nobodylikes me because a friend didn't
want to play that day, or eventhis is the worst day ever after
a really small disappointment.
These are all examples of all ornothing thinking, and it's also
called black and white thinkingor the technical name for it is
(02:50):
called binary thinking.
It's a common mental pattern inchildren and it could be really
frustrating for us as parentswho want to help our kids gain
perspective and stay emotionallygrounded.
So just for a quick review, allor nothing thinking is what we
call a cognitive distortion,where situations or people or
feelings are viewed in extremes.
(03:13):
Something is either perfect ora disaster, all good or all bad,
always or never.
There's not an in-between.
That's why we call it binarytwo options, and it can show up
in statements like I'm the worstplayer on the team, or if I
can't do it right, I'm not goingto do it at all, or you never
listen to me, or everyone ismean, or I always lose.
(03:38):
When you hear always and never,it's a little clue that we've
got that binary thinking.
Now, for adults, this kind ofthinking is familiar.
We do it too, especially whenwe're stressed or emotionally
overwhelmed.
But for our kids, I think thisisn't just a habit.
It is considered a part oftheir brain development.
Let's talk about the brain fora minute, because this is where
(04:00):
so much of this starts to makesense, I think to us.
Children's brains are stilldeveloping, especially in the
prefrontal cortex.
That's the area responsible forcomplex thought, emotional
regulation, planning,decision-making.
This part of the brain maturesgradually.
It's not fully developed reallyuntil a person's like in their
twenties, mid twenties.
(04:20):
In contrast, the amygdala,which is in the middle part of
your brain, it handles emotionsand threat detection and it's
much more active and reactive inchildren.
This means that when a childfaces something frustrating or
overwhelming, their brain ismore likely to jump into a
reactive and emotional staterather than a reflective and
(04:42):
kind of reasonable one.
Now, don't you think this isjust earth shattering?
When I learned this brainscience as I was studying
developmental stages in childrenfor years and years, we really
had a limit.
I'm dating myself, but we had alimited information about these
kinds of structures in thebrain as this became common
(05:06):
knowledge in my field.
It was so exciting.
Because when you understandthat there are different parts
of the brain that develop kindof in different layers and then
children's behavior just cannotbe looked at in the same way as
we look at adults' behavior andwe do this all the time, you
guys, we look at our kids and wesee it through kind of our
(05:28):
understanding of what adultsthink and how we think.
But when you understand that achild's prefrontal cortex the
big powerhouse of reasoning andunderstanding and holding
abstract concepts and being ableto kind of delay gratification
when you understand that all ofthat part of a child's brain is
(05:49):
slower to develop and that theirthreat reaction and their high
emotional centers are the firstto develop, doesn't their
behavior just start to make somuch more sense?
This is like a eureka moment.
I hope it is for all of us.
As parents, we should know thatwhen we leave the hospital with
our babies that this is a braindevelopment process that we're
(06:12):
watching our children go throughand we really need to be clued
into it.
And because of this braindevelopmental process nuanced
thinking you know, the abilityto see shades of gray, to hold
two feelings at once, toconsider context, to have
abstract thinking, that's alater stage skill.
(06:32):
In early childhood.
Kids are not wired for thatkind of complexity yet they
operate with simple, moreconcrete mental categories.
Just easier and safer for ayoung brain to put things in
buckets right Of safe or unsafe,right or wrong, good or bad,
and this is rudimentary butessential early on.
(06:52):
In fact, if you listened to myepisode last week on your all or
nothing thinking as a mom, youmight remember we talked about
how even our adult brains cravethat kind of simplicity, that
kind of order with only twooptions, especially when we're
under pressure.
That desire for clarity andsafety is something that we
actually still share with ourchildren, but for them it's
(07:15):
amplified because theircognitive systems aren't
finished building the bridgesyet.
That's not a flaw, that'sdevelopmental.
So for me this makes a lot ofsense when I can understand that
what I'm seeing in my childrenis an underdeveloped skill.
It helps me to know what to doabout it.
And though it's common for kidsto think in all or nothing, it
(07:35):
doesn't mean that it's helpfulto them.
In fact, even early inchildhood we can see kids
getting stuck in patterns ofthis binary thinking that really
can cause problems for them.
Their expectations can be sobig, kind of on the all side of
the continuum, that can set themup for a lot of disappointment
and then even low self-esteemwhen they don't hit those
(07:57):
expectations Like I'm going tobe the best at this, or I'm
going to win the game right now,or every game, and when they
don't there is inevitabledisappointment.
At the other extreme, in thenothing range, we see kids who
view a situation from thatnothing side of the continuum.
One mistake wipes out all theirhard work or their achievements
(08:19):
.
They can go into situationswith expectations of failure,
which often dampens their hope,their creativity, even makes
them hang out on the sidelinesand not participate.
So usually all or nothingthinking becomes apparent mostly
when things haven't gone theway that our kids want them to
go.
When things go perfectly whichisn't going to happen all the
(08:40):
time, but once in a while theysay they're going to win the
game and they do win the game.
So in a weird way that kind ofreinforces their all or nothing
thinking.
Certainly isn't a reason whythey get upset.
The problem comes when thingsdon't go the way that they want
them to go when they findthemselves on the other end of
the spectrum.
If they didn't win every game,then they aren't in the all
(09:03):
category, which can mean then tothem that they're in the
nothing category.
And when they start in thenothing category because of
their fear or past experiencesor just their belief that they
aren't going to be successful,then they usually stay in the
nothing category mostly becauseit becomes this self-fulfilling
prophecy.
They usually don't engage.
(09:23):
So I think this is an importantthing for all of us to note.
Can any of us ever fit into theall in quotes, air quotes
category?
When do we ever win every game?
Even the most elite athletesdon't win every game.
This is the core problem withbinary thinking, with only two
options and one of them beingunattainable.
(09:45):
Perfection, right.
We inevitably will all end upin the nothing category.
Here's some ways that you mightsee this kind of all or nothing
bind happen in your kid's life.
You might notice your childrensaying things like this is the
worst day ever, I'll never begood at reading.
You always say no, no one likesme, I hate school.
(10:08):
These are usually very strongemotional responses, not
necessarily factual statements,and the emotional charge behind
them can make parents feel sodefensive, like they don't want
their kids to be thinking thatway, or very helpless, like they
just kind of don't want theirkids to be thinking that way, or
very helpless, like they justkind of don't know what to do to
help them.
I think it's very natural forus to feel the urge to correct
(10:29):
our kids immediately, to say, ofcourse, people like you, or
that's not true.
Yesterday you had a great day.
Or don't say that You're reallygood at reading.
But here's, I think, the key.
Instead of rushing to correctthe content of what your child
is saying, I think it's helpfulto try to recognize the pattern
(10:50):
that they're in.
That pattern, that extremethinking.
It's actually a window intowhat your child's brain is ready
for and what it is stillgrowing into.
When we understand that thisall or nothing thinking is kind
of part of that developmentalprocess they're going through, I
think it can be helpful for usto stop seeing it so much as a
(11:13):
problem to fix and to kind ofpanic about and instead to see
it as a skill that needs to growin our children, because our
job is not to force nuance ontoour children before they're
ready.
I don't think we really can,even if we try.
Our job is to help them buildthe capacity to think more
flexibly as their brains mature.
(11:35):
And this is especiallyimportant because this kind of
binary thinking can reallyintensify our kids' emotional
responses.
It can cause them to kind ofhang back and delay the
development of their self-esteem.
It can distort relationshipswhen they're seeing the negative
.
You know, you always yell at meor no one ever talks to me.
(11:56):
When they're focused on thenegative, they're not able to
see the balance that's inrelationships, and it can often
lead them to give up easily.
You know I can't do it, I'mnever going to be successful, so
I'm not going to try.
And I think that if we leavethese patterns unchecked,
unprocessed, they can becomedefault modes of thinking even
(12:17):
into adulthood.
So though we can't force thisnuanced skill, this nuanced
thinking, into our children'sthinking patterns, we can start
to spot where they're gettingstuck and do a few things to
help them get unstuck, to startdevelop a more balanced, nuanced
way of thinking.
(12:38):
Here are a few ways to do that,a few strategies.
Number one the first thing todo is to notice that they are
kind of stuck in that all ornothing thinking, and you can
actually very gently point thatout to them.
You might say, hmm, that soundslike an all or nothing thought.
Do you know what that means?
(12:58):
That means that you have twochoices either it's all or it's
nothing.
Can we look at what's inbetween?
Now, that might not be aconversation you have with your
two-year-old, but as yourchildren get older and you start
to have these kinds ofconversations especially not in
the heat of the moment sometimesit's hard for anyone to be
(13:21):
taught to really learn a conceptwhen they're super upset.
But as you're talking about it,as you're processing what's
going on with your children,just I think like there is
that's just straight upexplaining.
Hey, I think that there's thisthing called all or nothing
thinking.
Let me draw it out on a pieceof paper for you, right?
Either we have to win everytime, or the other option is we
(13:43):
lose every time, and the truthis neither of these really are
the way that it happens all thetime.
Sometimes we win, sometimes welose, and you draw it out on a
continuum for kids.
Another thing you could say tothem is wait, hold on, let's see
if, when you say never, ifthat's really true, or maybe
(14:03):
just it didn't happen this timeand that was really
disappointing.
So the goal here is not toshame or even correct your
children.
You don't want to say don't saythat or you're wrong but offer
them another alternative so thatthey know that you've heard
them, you understand them andthey're not doing it wrong.
(14:24):
You're trying to help them,broaden the way they see it.
Number two validate theiremotion, not the extreme.
Instead of saying you don'talways lose, which kind of comes
out to our kids like we'rearguing with them, you can say
instead, it feels reallyfrustrating to lose, doesn't it?
Or you really wanted that to goa different way.
(14:48):
So, as we're doing this,actually we're just setting
aside altogether the whole allor nothing thing and we're
finding the emotion underneathwhat they're saying,
understanding that it makessense that their brain is going
to go to all or nothing whenthey're disappointed because
they are having a hard timeconceiving of the idea that this
could go in a way that theydidn't want it to go to all or
nothing.
(15:08):
When they're disappointedbecause they are having a hard
time conceiving of the idea thatthis could go in a way that
they didn't want it to go andthat it might not be the end of
the world.
It might be okay that they'redisappointed.
That disappointment feels likea threat.
Their brain's going quickly tothe binary option.
So we're keeping the emotionaldoor open with our kids and
we're redirecting them away fromthat distortion where they're
(15:32):
concluding that it's all bad orit's all good and obviously
they're not having a problem ifit's all good right.
So all of this usually comes upwhen kids are really upset.
Number three we can modelcontinuum thinking in our own
lives, and that's what we callit Thinking on a continuum,
(15:52):
thinking on a scale of colorsright, where there's black and
there's white but there's allthe colors in between.
How do you do that?
How do you model that for yourchildren so they catch you
thinking that way out loud?
I think this is a challenge forus because our thinking
naturally happens internally.
You realize how much goes on inour head and we never say it
(16:14):
out loud.
This is something that you canactually choose to do in front
of your child.
You can say today was tricky, Ididn't get everything done, but
I did make some progress.
So I'm kind of a little bitdisappointed, but I can see that
there was still good that gotaccomplished today.
Now your child might look atyou like gosh, mom, why are you
(16:36):
talking to yourself?
But if you do this out loudwithout trying to teach your
children, especially when yourchildren are really young, they
are just so casually listeningto everything we say.
I mean our, our teens do too,but our kids are like our little
buddies with us all the time.
Right the other day I was makinga cake and I messed it up Like
(16:57):
I think I just didn't get theingredients in there right, or I
don't know what it was, but itjust did not rise like it was
supposed to.
I said out loud to the kidsthat were all there helping me
bake.
I said, oh my goodness, usuallycakes come out really well.
This one didn't.
I wonder what we did wrong.
I bet we could try again Inside.
(17:18):
To be honest, I was reallyfrustrated.
I wanted to kind of go to whyis this happening?
I don't have time for this.
This is the most terrible thingin the world.
But if you can catch ithappening in your own thinking
and you put yourself back on acontinuum which is good for you,
by the way right, this isn'tjust for our kids, this is going
to make you have a much happierlife.
If you're able to do this, whenyou do it, we want you to say
(17:40):
it out loud so that your kidscan hear you say it.
Powerful, powerful modeling.
Kids can hear you say itPowerful, powerful modeling.
Number four let's use languagethat adds nuance.
We can have phrases like hmm,you're getting ready for your
baseball game.
Maybe you'll win today, ormaybe the other team will win
today.
I don't know.
(18:00):
I come from a family of sportsfanatics.
That would seem a little odd ifI said that.
It would seem probably a littlelike I'm betraying my kids'
team.
But you know what, guys?
That is the truth, isn't it?
We play games all the time.
In board games.
We play games.
Kids play games againstcomputers all the time.
We play games with teams.
(18:21):
No one wins all the time.
The truth is, some days we'regoing to win and some days we're
not.
So, using that language once ina while, if it doesn't make your
kids crazy once in a while,that's going to be helpful.
Sometimes we can say oh,sometimes we get just what we
thought we were going to get andsometimes we're disappointed.
Or it's possible that there'ssome other reasons why your
(18:45):
friend didn't call you todaylike they said they were going
to call you, so it's possiblethat opens up a range of other
possibilities besides all ornothing right.
It's also helpful when we startto explain that there are
different parts of us.
A part of me is happy that wegot to go with our friends today
to the park, and a part of meis really sad that we had to go
(19:06):
home.
Got to go with our friendstoday to the park, and a part of
me is really sad that we had togo home.
What we're doing is starting touse language to give nuance to
all the different feelings thatwe have.
This is really part of whatwe're teaching our children,
even in acknowledging theirfeelings right.
The more language they have todescribe what's going on inside
of them, the easier it is toregulate their emotions.
(19:26):
I don't know exactly why thatseems like such a simple formula
.
I think it's the best way weknow how to describe it is that
the brain likes to know what'sgoing on and when we can give it
an answer and it's a littlemore nuanced, it gives us a lot
more space to make sense of theworld around us.
(19:48):
So we're helping children thinkin terms of gradients, shades,
rather than absolutes.
Number five we want to praiseeffort, courage, curiosity and
learning, not just the outcomes.
This helps kids value thejourney, not just the result.
One of the most powerful waysto help them move out of all or
(20:10):
nothing thinking is to teachthem the principles of growth
mindset.
I don't know if you rememberexactly what that is.
We have some great episodes ongrowth mindset, but a quick
overview.
Psychologist Carol Dweckresearched growth mindset.
Showed us that the belief thatabilities and intelligence can
develop through effort, learningand persistence, and that
(20:34):
they're not just fixed.
In other words, you weren'tborn smart or you were born dumb
, or you were born talented oryou were born like missing the
talent, intelligence, abilities.
The things that we learn happenbecause of the journey of
learning them the ups and downs,the shades of gray right In
(20:57):
between the all or nothing.
This is an ideal way to offeryour child more than two rigid
categories and instead give thema flexible roadmap for growth.
So we want kids to understandthat mistakes are part of
learning, challenges areopportunities and that trying
again is a strength, not aweakness.
And so we're helping them letgo of the belief that they
(21:17):
either have what it takes orthey don't.
So growth mindset language cansound like you're still learning
.
That's exactly where you'resupposed to be.
Every time you practice, yourbrain is growing.
Mistakes help us figure outwhat we need to learn next.
So I'll pause here.
How much do you believe ingrowth mindset for yourself?
(21:39):
I teach growth mindset, I ampassionate about it and you know
, guys, I still get caught in myown fixed mindset thinking and
my own perfectionistic thinkingand my own all or nothing
thinking.
So the answer is that we applythis to our own thinking and
then we will get better andbetter at teaching it to our
(22:00):
kids.
And the beautiful thing aboutthis approach is that it shifts
your child's identity from beingsomeone who is something right
I'm good at this or I'm bad atthis to someone who's becoming
something I'm working on gettingbetter at this and this helps
take some of that internalpressure away and it just is
hopeful.
And often that's what we needis a little bit of hope to stay
(22:24):
engaged in our lives andactivities rather than just
shutting down.
So we want to praise ourchildren in the process they are
doing, rather than the outcome.
I noticed how you kept going,even when it got hard.
You really worked through thatstep-by-step.
You didn't give up.
That helped you learn.
Now we could say, hey, great,you won the game.
(22:46):
Oh my gosh, that art is justabsolutely perfect.
Or the piece you played at therecital was magnificent.
There's nothing terribly wrongwith those things, except that
they're focused only on theoutcome.
Could we say those things andthen really give an
acknowledgement to all of theprocess that had to happen for
(23:10):
the game to get won, the art toget made, the recital piece to
be beautiful?
That meant there was practice,there were stumbles along the
way, there were things that kidshad to overcome.
The process is what we want topraise and I think that's where
our balanced thinking lives, inthat messy, meaningful middle.
(23:32):
A couple of weeks ago I workedwith a mom on this, with her
seven-year-old daughter who camerunning into the kitchen after
school saying I have no friends.
Seven-year-old daughter whocame running into the kitchen
after school saying I have nofriends.
Everyone was mean to me todayand her mom was about to say
that's not true, you just had aplay date yesterday.
But because we'd been talkingabout this kind of all or
nothing thinking trap, we'd beenworking with her on this
(23:54):
specific little girl that hasgotten kind of caught up in this
all or nothing thinking andshe'd been prepared.
And so instead she triedsomething different, instead of
trying to prove her daughterwrong and she had the data it
was true that her daughter hadseveral friends and she assumed
that everyone was not mean toher.
(24:15):
Instead of arguing with her,she said instead that sounds
really hard, do you want to tellme what happened?
And as her daughter opened up,it became clear that one friend
hadn't saved her a seat at lunch, like she promised, and that
felt huge to this little girl,especially as her brain is still
developing.
It was huge to her and aftertalking it through, her mom said
(24:38):
sometimes one hard moment canfeel like our whole day, but
maybe it was just one tough partin a day, with other moments
too.
Let's see if we can findsomething today that kind of
went better or that you felt wasokay.
This mom was really pleasedbecause this was kind of a
(24:58):
breakthrough for her to get outof that power struggle with her
daughter, trying to almostcommand her to stop thinking so
negatively.
Instead, she kind of went withher daughter and she helped her.
She validated the feelingunderneath.
She got more information andthen she helped her try to shift
over into more nuanced thinking.
(25:19):
Right, not denying that thatwas a painful moment, but I
wonder if maybe there were anyother moments in the day that
felt a little bit more okay.
This can show up in so many waysand I think we have to be
really respectful of our kids.
Keep that trust with them,develop it, keep it strong so
(25:41):
that they will open up to us.
And it's so painful to hear ourchild fall into that trap of
negativity and of doomsday andof all or nothing.
I get it.
I know we want to argue withthem.
We want to prove to them thatthey're wrong, because we don't
want them to feel the pain ofwhat that makes them feel.
But it really helped me to knowthat this is common, so it's
(26:06):
not something we want you topanic about.
Kids all over the country, allover the world, are dealing with
this.
Second, it's something thatthey are going to learn to grow
out of, especially if we helpthem process through it.
Sometimes I think the more weargue with kids about this stuff
, the more they dig their heelsin and they just get committed
(26:27):
to this right they want to proveto us how absolutely true that
belief is that they have, thateverything is terrible.
Sometimes it's more helpful forus to drop that struggle, and
maybe even in that momentthey're not able to have a
conversation about it, but maybelater they will be.
So we have to take a deepbreath, I think.
(26:48):
Recognize that this is ajourney Like do you notice how
we fall into the all or nothingthinking?
Oh my gosh, my kid is nevergoing to learn how to think
differently.
That's also binary thinking.
This is so sneaky.
So take a deep breath,recognize it.
Recognize it when it's in yourown mind, recognize it when it's
in your child's thinking, howit's showing up, and then give
(27:10):
yourself a little bit of time tostart to work on this with your
child.
Actually, your calm, groundedpresence is going to be a bridge
that's going to help them crossfrom that all or nothing
thinking to that more nuancedthinking.
So hopefully after today youcan get a little bit more in the
middle to not have thisthinking be quite so upsetting
(27:31):
to you and start to notice whereyou can intervene with a few
little guides, a few littlehelps for your kids to start
balancing that all or nothingthinking Well, thank you.
Thank you for being here withme again today.
If today's episode gave you alittle bit of an aha moment, you
will definitely want to listento the one we did on all or
(27:53):
nothing thinking for moms if youhaven't, and I really think
that it's so helpful for me togo back every once in a while
and refresh my mind, my memoryon these concepts, because they
kind of even though I know themI deeply know them, and I teach
them they often sometimes justkind of flutter away and I
forget that I have this powerfultool to help me feel better.
(28:16):
And as you start to use it andyou shift your own lens, we're
going to help our children dothe same.
So give it a try, be gentle, bekind with yourself.
As we do this really, reallyhard work as moms.
I look forward to being withyou next week.
Take care If you've beenlistening to this podcast and
(28:37):
feel like these ideas reallyspeak to you, but you're not
sure how to actually apply themin your own life, I want you to
know you don't have to do italone.
I'm currently opening a fewone-to-one coaching spots for
moms who are ready to go deeperand get personalized support as
they build their own resilience.
This is where we takeeverything we talk about here
and we tailor it to your life,your story, your goals.
(28:59):
If that sounds like somethingyou're craving, just head to
LeeGermancom and click onone-to-one coaching.
We'll set up a free call totalk about where you are, where
you want to be and whethercoaching is the right next step
for you.
You can always find me onInstagram @ LeighGermann, or on
my website at LeighGermann.
com.
(29:22):
The Leadership Parenting Podcastis for general information
purposes only.
It is not therapy and shouldnot take the place of meeting
with a qualified mental healthprofessional.
The information on this podcastis not intended to diagnose or
treat any condition, illness ordisease.
It's also not intended to belegal, medical or therapeutic
(29:43):
advice.
Please consult your doctor ormental health professional for
your individual circumstances.
Thanks again and take care.
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