August 23, 2024 • 18 mins
What kind of impact is your leader having on your mental health? And how does that then affect the people that you lead? In this episode, we unpack the complex challenges of loving a role, but feeling suffocated by a toxic superior. We underscore the significance of external support, while focusing on addressing the underlying environment that is causing stress. Finally, we dive into learning new ways to address a leader who is acting in a harmful way, in order to create a better situation.
Do you know what to do if your leader's actions are actively damaging your well-being?
If you want to be able to navigate those relationships, and make the decisions that are best for you and your team, this is the episode for you!
To have your questions answered on the show, submit your story here: https://allthrive.ca/share-your-story
Leadership Ripples with Leah Fink is live every week at 12:00pm MST. Please join us to get answers to your leadership questions! https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-fink-all-thrive/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Every action you take as a leader has a ripple effect
, starting with your team, goingout to the organization and
even out into people's personallives.
Here we offer you the chance tolearn from real-life stories of
leadership so you can gain adeeper understanding and level
up your own skills Fromcommunication to culture, to
power and equity, to feedback,to resolving conflict and more.
(00:23):
Join us and make sure you'recreating the ripples you want.
Welcome to Leadership Rippleswith Leah Fink.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Leadership Ripples with Leah
Fink.
Today, we are going to betalking about dealing with
burnout when you're inleadership and when you're
getting a negative impact fromyour own leader, and I think
this is just so important forall leaders to be aware of for
themselves and for their teams,and so we can make sure that
(00:52):
we're having that kind of impactthat we want.
Fh writes in with her story.
She says I am feeling trappedand burnt out in my role.
I was so excited when I gotthis position and it really is
perfect for me in so many ways.
It pays well, every day bringsinteresting new projects, and
the team I lead is great.
All that being said, I don'tthink I can deal with my boss
(01:15):
anymore.
He is completely toxic.
He clearly doesn't care aboutme and spends a lot of time
micromanaging and cutting medown.
My mental health has taken abig hit and I spend so much of
my time outside of work justtrying to recover enough to get
to the next day.
I don't want to leave my dreamrole, but I don't think I can
take it anymore.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story, fh, and I'm so sorry
(01:39):
that you're having to gothrough this.
Not only are you dealing withthe emotional impact on yourself
of your boss's behavior, butnow even having to question if
you can potentially keep thisdream role that really seems
important to you, and I first ofall want to say that you're not
alone.
New research is showing that 70%of people are saying that their
(02:00):
leader has more of an impact ontheir mental health than any
caring professionals theirdoctors and their therapists and
when I heard that, I was verysaddened, of course, but
actually, unfortunately, notsurprised.
After all, usually we'reseeking these professionals when
we're already having challengestherapists, doctors we're
already in this challengingsituation.
(02:21):
We're looking for solutions.
Meanwhile, your boss could benegatively, actively
contributing to all these poorexperiences that you're having
every single day.
Now, ideally in the workplace.
Is the other way right?
Because it also applies to 70%of people.
Some of those people might bepositively mentally impacted by
their boss more than theirtherapist or their doctor, and
(02:42):
of course, that's what we'dprefer boss more than their
therapist or their doctor, andof course, that's what we'd
prefer.
And really creating thisenvironment that either stresses
you out or lifts you up issomething that leaders have so
much of an impact on, and that'swhy so much of my work with
leaders is focused on makingsure that they're creating these
environments where the rippleis this positive impact on
mental health.
Is this positive impact onmental health, not this negative
(03:08):
one?
Because, as a leader, that'spart of what you end up creating
.
Now that, all being said, fh,that was just context.
That's not your specificsituation.
So let's start by talking aboutwhat you can do for yourself,
and I'll start with the basics,which you might already be doing
some of, and then I'm going togo some more in depth and expand
on some of these in ways youmight not have thought of yet.
Even though, as we talked about, it might not, let's say, fully
(03:29):
counter your boss's actions, Icertainly hope that you have
sought or are seeking out somesort of support outside of work,
whatever kind of professionalthat is, and this is regardless
of whether you choose to stay oryou choose to go a new
direction and pursue another job.
I think that, honestly,everyone should have this
(03:51):
opportunity to be able to talkabout a challenge, experience,
to explore that, and so they canlearn and grow from it and feel
healthier and move forward.
So, whether that's someone inprivate practice, you can look
into if your workplace has anemployee family assistance plan.
There are all sorts of optionsmaybe free from your health care
or sliding scale if financesare a bit tougher and it might
take a while to get into those,but making sure that you are
(04:13):
seeking some sort of help thatwill help you process this.
I would really recommend thatand if you've already done that,
fantastic, I'm really glad youhave that support.
And, of course, also lookinginto the rest of your life,
seeing what kind of people helpdecrease your stress in your
interactions with them.
What kind of activities can youdo that decrease stress, make
you feel more calm?
(04:33):
And if there are the oppositesof those obviously people that
are adding stress to your life,or activities that are adding
stress to your life are thereways to mitigate or manage those
things?
Now that I've said those twothings because those are the
common advice that you would getin this kind of situation I'm
immediately going to follow themwith two counterpoints.
And one is you want to be awareof your own perception around
(04:57):
this piece of self-care thatyou're doing.
Some people do all of thesethings.
They start trying and they'rereally working on countering the
stress they're facing, and it'sjust not enough.
And they can get quite upsetwith themselves, thinking I must
have failed at self-carebecause I'm not feeling better.
And part of this is because oursociety puts this huge emphasis
(05:18):
on self-care and mental healthbeing so individual that it's up
to you to manage your ownmental health.
So of course you're going tofeel like you're a failure if
you cannot manage that, and Ireally want to reiterate that.
Of course we all have apersonal responsibility for how
we show up and how we take careof ourselves.
But putting this entire onus onyou that you should be able to
(05:39):
take certain steps and instantlyfeel better is not healthy.
So remembering to be gentlewith yourself about that.
And that plays it a little bitinto this other counterpoint,
which is making sure that you'renot so involved doing this
personal work and this self-carethat you don't talk about the
environment that it comes from.
So maybe you start seeing atherapist and now you're
(06:02):
exercising every day and you'remeditating every day and you're
journaling every day and youfeel like you can get through
this now.
But every moment that you arenot at work, you are spent
dealing with the stress andtrying to make sure that you are
feeling better from work so thenext day you can go back.
I'm going to say that if youhave to commit your entire life
(06:24):
to healing from the stress fromwork so you can get through the
next day, this is not a greatlong-term solution.
Sure, you can do it, butultimately what's going to
happen is you're going to loseout on other parts of your life
that you would have liked toengage with but maybe didn't
have the time because you'retaking so much recovery time
from work and in the long run,you're going to feel really
burned out from this.
This can have really bad longterm consequences environmental
(06:55):
factors in the workplace thatare affecting this.
So what can be done about it?
Of course, if we're looking atthat environmental piece and,
like you said, one of youroptions is to leave and there is
nothing wrong with leaving abad situation it's not some sort
of failure on your part if youdon't feel equipped to deal with
the situation or that youdecide that you don't want to
deal with the situation.
You need to take care ofyourself, and I've talked about
(07:20):
this in previous episodes, but Ido want to reiterate that it's
critical for leaders like youyourself already said you lead a
team to be able to manage theirself-care enough in order to be
regulated and responsive andpresent with your team.
And if you don't feel that youcan do that in a way that you
can really be there feeling notso stressed that you can't
handle those pieces, then Iwould really recommend maybe
(07:41):
looking at something else.
Because when leaders don't dothe self-care, when they're not
able to be that regulated, it'sactually unethical.
It really is the way that youtreat your staff, the way that
you're trying to support them tohelp solve their problems.
When you're that level ofstress you can't manage it, you
actually end up negativelyimpacting your team and I can
say this from previousexperience and from a lot of
(08:03):
studies that are done.
It's really hard to then beable to support your team fully.
So, making sure that if this isa situation you need to leave
so you can be healthy enough tolead a team, please consider
that.
I'm also going to add thatsometimes people you need to
leave so you can be healthyenough to lead a team.
Please consider that.
I'm also going to add thatsometimes people feel powerless
to leave a situation like this,like you can't leave because
this is the only job that willpay this well, or this is the
(08:25):
only organization that does thiswork, or this is the only
position that will give me allof these opportunities.
And sometimes people conflate,not wanting to face a specific
consequence, which thereobviously would be an impact
from choosing to leave, with nothaving the power to do so.
And really the point that willcome for you personally is when
(08:45):
you feel that that consequenceis now better than the thing
that you were leaving from right.
So if the consequence is betterthan all the stress that you're
dealing with from your boss,the consequence could be a
decrease in pay, or having topick a less interesting position
, or maybe having to relocate.
Those are all consequences thatcould happen, but you always do
(09:06):
have that choice, and so youneed to be weighing these on
your mind on what makes sense.
With that all said, fh, let'ssay that you decide to try to
stay, that this is important toyou and you want to tough it out
, see if things can get better.
There's a couple things you cando with your boss to improve the
situation you can listen, ofcourse, to some of our previous
episodes about feedback and toreally navigate that
(09:28):
relationship when you're in alower power situation.
And just because you are inthis position that has less
influence, obviously, than yourboss does, doesn't mean that you
have no power and it doesn'tmean that you can't influence
his behavior as well.
Right In the same way, whenleaders are managing staff who
are aggressive or passiveaggressive or passive or
(09:50):
unengaged or fearful whatevernegative behavior they're seeing
they can counteract that bybeing responsive and respectful,
by repairing harm if it happensand really taking
responsibility for the health ofthat relationship.
That shifts those people to abetter place.
In a similar way, though it maybe harder, people who are in
(10:11):
that staff position can alsotake leaders who are unaware or
reactionary, disrespectful,manipulative, self-serving.
And if these staff can actuallyshift that by being resilient
and collaborative, trusting,assertive and empowered, so you
(10:34):
have the ability to help movethis behavior in a better way.
Of course it sounds easier thanit is, but let's talk about a
few ways that we can do that tomake a difference.
And of course, in the idealworld, it would be the leaders
taking these steps, recognizingthey're having a negative impact
and being more, like I said,responsive and taking
(10:54):
responsibility for that healthof the relationship.
Since they're not doing it.
We're going to take it on asthe staff and really still work
to get our needs met.
And I want to start by sayingand this might be hard to
believe it is for a lot ofpeople is that most leaders I
have met have really goodintentions, even the ones that
are not behaving well, and theymight get clouded.
(11:15):
We know that leaders loseempathy.
This is actually aphysiological change that
happens when they've been inleadership positions for a
really long time.
We've talked about this inother episodes.
You can go back and listen theleader, your leader, might be
dealing poorly with some oftheir own personal challenges.
Right, they're not ethicallyself caring for themselves.
They may be reactive due totheir own trauma that they
(11:35):
haven't faced or unresolvedissues, but even with all of
that, at a deep level, peopleultimately want to do a good job
.
They want to support otherpeople and generally the biggest
problem is they have no idea.
They just haven't fullyconnected the negative impact
they're having on people withtheir actions.
So one of the things you can doto really change this is you
(11:59):
open this door for understanding, and there's two ways we can
address this.
The first one is reallyshifting the feedback that you
described as him cutting youdown.
It's a type of feedback not agood one, but it is a type of
feedback, and I don't knowexactly what he says to you.
But we're going to use anexample that he regularly says
you're stupid.
And that would hurt, that wouldsuck to hear.
(12:20):
I would hate it if a boss,every day or every couple days,
told me I was stupid.
So what we're going to do istry to help him, from our
position, reframe how he'sexpressing himself and what he
hopes for, so this feedbackchanges.
So let's say you do somethingthat he doesn't like and he
calls you stupid.
So let's try to do this adifferent way.
So, as calmly as you can, youcan ask him what would you have
(12:43):
preferred I would have done inthis situation?
Now you also mentioned he'dbeen micromanaging.
If he's been micromanaging, heprobably has a pretty big idea.
He'd probably have lots to sayto you about what you could have
done, and you want to keepasking questions, be engaged
with what he says.
So what specific behaviorswould be helpful?
What types of situations wouldI use this for in the future?
(13:05):
You know, all of those kinds ofquestions that really, really
clarify understanding here andat the end you calmly reiterate,
paraphrase what he said.
So you really show yourunderstanding and you're
confirming that it's right.
You can even paraphrase whatemotions you might have heard or
sensed in that situation isreally helpful.
So it seems like this is reallyfrustrating to you.
(13:27):
So you like it when I takethese steps, so you're really
bringing all of those piecestogether and then you want to
close by thanking him forexplaining it to you so you
understand his perspectivebetter.
One of these things that happensis people get upset because
they don't feel understood oragreed with and they perceive
that as a kind of rejection oreven disrespect.
(13:50):
Now, disagreement or notunderstanding is certainly not
disrespect or rejection.
But even if that is not thecase, we can mitigate this
perceived thing that they haveby really focusing on this
understanding, by reallydeveloping that.
So now you've really worked onmaking sure that you understand
your boss, his perspective,what's happening, and the second
(14:12):
part is you want to open up hisunderstanding of you and of
course, you want to do thiscarefully and slowly, but you
want him to ultimately get to apoint where he can understand
your experience and youremotions.
And so start small.
So I've really, maybe after hesaid all this, you've had this
question time.
I really appreciate you takingtime to explain a different way
(14:32):
that I could have handled things.
That because that helps me whatto do.
Can you continue to do thisinstead of using the word stupid
?
So just keep it very simple.
You're not saying I hate itwhen you use the word stupid,
you're not getting emotionalabout this, but you're adding
this piece that says I prefer Aover B.
When he does do thatexplanation, keep thanking him,
keep doing this more and moretimes.
(14:53):
Further.
When this is developed a littlebit, maybe he's doing better,
but he's still using the termusing stupid.
You can actually say moredirectly hey, look, I feel hurt
when I'm called stupid and Icould really use some compassion
or understanding with that.
Would you be willing to choosea different way to say that?
Or would you be willing tocontinue to give me more of
(15:14):
these explanations instead?
Because when we actively sharethose feelings, those needs,
that more personal piece onceagain, once you've practiced
this a bit and it feels moresafe, we get a different
response.
Right, he somehow might nothave realized that when he calls
you stupid, you are feelingthat or are willing to say that,
that it's that important to you, and then you can start
discussing solutions, becauseyou're together and you're in
(15:37):
understanding on this, and youcan use this for any behavior.
If he's constantly micromanaging, ask him what he feels he needs
to see in order to trust yourwork.
Ask if there would be a betterway to do check-ins, maybe
mention that you feel frustratedand it makes it hard to focus
when he's constantly checking inand now you're creating this
understanding you guys can moveforward with the solution
(15:58):
together.
Ultimately, this is really kindof training, or helping him see
this new way of understandinghimself, of understanding you,
and then you become a teamthat's working together to do
better, to work together better,to solve these problems better.
And I will say, though, if hisbehavior, if you try to do this
(16:18):
and his behavior is at the pointof shouting at you, cursing at
you, he absolutely refuses toanswer or do things another way,
or maybe even uses this tobelittle you more, in my opinion
, that would be a situation thatis, you're not going to solve
that with your skills andcapacity and power dynamic in
this role.
So that would be where I'dreally consider looking at maybe
(16:40):
other options or going toanother person in your company
that might be able to help.
Be very careful with this.
If it really is turning to be aworse situation, look at your
options.
But generally what happens whenpeople start employing these
skills is they see a change inbehavior.
They see this shift tosomething better, where there is
more empathy, where there ismore understanding.
(17:03):
So, fh, I hope that gave yousome good ideas and that you
have some concept of some newways that you might move forward
and not burn out quite so hard,and I'm really looking forward
to continuing our discussion.
And as a reminder to ourlisteners, if you have a story,
a question about leadershipyou've been burning to ask, I
would love to hear it, and soplease feel free to use that
(17:25):
link in the description belowand share it with us, and then,
as a thank you, I provide anextra free session just so we
can make sure we answer thequestion and as a way of saying
thank you.
This show is available inpodcast form If you prefer that.
It comes out Friday mornings.
So please use the link belowand download and enjoy from
wherever you like to listen toyour podcasts, and I want to
(17:46):
thank you so much for listeningtoday, for learning with me, for
finding new ways to adjust tothese crazy pieces of your life.
And, as we close, remember toask yourself what ripples are
you going to create this week?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Make sure to subscribe, commentand connect with Leah at
meetleahca.
Every action you take as a leader has a ripple effect
, starting with your team, goingout to the organization and
even out into people's personallives.
Here we offer you the chance tolearn from real-life stories of
leadership so you can gain adeeper understanding and level
up your own skills Fromcommunication to culture, to
power and equity, to feedback,to resolving conflict and more.
(00:23):
Join us and make sure you'recreating the ripples you want.
Welcome to Leadership Rippleswith Leah Fink.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Leadership Ripples with Leah
Fink.
Today, we are going to betalking about dealing with
burnout when you're inleadership and when you're
getting a negative impact fromyour own leader, and I think
this is just so important forall leaders to be aware of for
themselves and for their teams,and so we can make sure that
(00:52):
we're having that kind of impactthat we want.
Fh writes in with her story.
She says I am feeling trappedand burnt out in my role.
I was so excited when I gotthis position and it really is
perfect for me in so many ways.
It pays well, every day bringsinteresting new projects, and
the team I lead is great.
All that being said, I don'tthink I can deal with my boss
(01:15):
anymore.
He is completely toxic.
He clearly doesn't care aboutme and spends a lot of time
micromanaging and cutting medown.
My mental health has taken abig hit and I spend so much of
my time outside of work justtrying to recover enough to get
to the next day.
I don't want to leave my dreamrole, but I don't think I can
take it anymore.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story, fh, and I'm so sorry
(01:39):
that you're having to gothrough this.
Not only are you dealing withthe emotional impact on yourself
of your boss's behavior, butnow even having to question if
you can potentially keep thisdream role that really seems
important to you, and I first ofall want to say that you're not
alone.
New research is showing that 70%of people are saying that their
(02:00):
leader has more of an impact ontheir mental health than any
caring professionals theirdoctors and their therapists and
when I heard that, I was verysaddened, of course, but
actually, unfortunately, notsurprised.
After all, usually we'reseeking these professionals when
we're already having challengestherapists, doctors we're
already in this challengingsituation.
(02:21):
We're looking for solutions.
Meanwhile, your boss could benegatively, actively
contributing to all these poorexperiences that you're having
every single day.
Now, ideally in the workplace.
Is the other way right?
Because it also applies to 70%of people.
Some of those people might bepositively mentally impacted by
their boss more than theirtherapist or their doctor, and
(02:42):
of course, that's what we'dprefer boss more than their
therapist or their doctor, andof course, that's what we'd
prefer.
And really creating thisenvironment that either stresses
you out or lifts you up issomething that leaders have so
much of an impact on, and that'swhy so much of my work with
leaders is focused on makingsure that they're creating these
environments where the rippleis this positive impact on
mental health.
Is this positive impact onmental health, not this negative
(03:08):
one?
Because, as a leader, that'spart of what you end up creating
.
Now that, all being said, fh,that was just context.
That's not your specificsituation.
So let's start by talking aboutwhat you can do for yourself,
and I'll start with the basics,which you might already be doing
some of, and then I'm going togo some more in depth and expand
on some of these in ways youmight not have thought of yet.
Even though, as we talked about, it might not, let's say, fully
(03:29):
counter your boss's actions, Icertainly hope that you have
sought or are seeking out somesort of support outside of work,
whatever kind of professionalthat is, and this is regardless
of whether you choose to stay oryou choose to go a new
direction and pursue another job.
I think that, honestly,everyone should have this
(03:51):
opportunity to be able to talkabout a challenge, experience,
to explore that, and so they canlearn and grow from it and feel
healthier and move forward.
So, whether that's someone inprivate practice, you can look
into if your workplace has anemployee family assistance plan.
There are all sorts of optionsmaybe free from your health care
or sliding scale if financesare a bit tougher and it might
take a while to get into those,but making sure that you are
(04:13):
seeking some sort of help thatwill help you process this.
I would really recommend thatand if you've already done that,
fantastic, I'm really glad youhave that support.
And, of course, also lookinginto the rest of your life,
seeing what kind of people helpdecrease your stress in your
interactions with them.
What kind of activities can youdo that decrease stress, make
you feel more calm?
(04:33):
And if there are the oppositesof those obviously people that
are adding stress to your life,or activities that are adding
stress to your life are thereways to mitigate or manage those
things?
Now that I've said those twothings because those are the
common advice that you would getin this kind of situation I'm
immediately going to follow themwith two counterpoints.
And one is you want to be awareof your own perception around
(04:57):
this piece of self-care thatyou're doing.
Some people do all of thesethings.
They start trying and they'rereally working on countering the
stress they're facing, and it'sjust not enough.
And they can get quite upsetwith themselves, thinking I must
have failed at self-carebecause I'm not feeling better.
And part of this is because oursociety puts this huge emphasis
(05:18):
on self-care and mental healthbeing so individual that it's up
to you to manage your ownmental health.
So of course you're going tofeel like you're a failure if
you cannot manage that, and Ireally want to reiterate that.
Of course we all have apersonal responsibility for how
we show up and how we take careof ourselves.
But putting this entire onus onyou that you should be able to
(05:39):
take certain steps and instantlyfeel better is not healthy.
So remembering to be gentlewith yourself about that.
And that plays it a little bitinto this other counterpoint,
which is making sure that you'renot so involved doing this
personal work and this self-carethat you don't talk about the
environment that it comes from.
So maybe you start seeing atherapist and now you're
(06:02):
exercising every day and you'remeditating every day and you're
journaling every day and youfeel like you can get through
this now.
But every moment that you arenot at work, you are spent
dealing with the stress andtrying to make sure that you are
feeling better from work so thenext day you can go back.
I'm going to say that if youhave to commit your entire life
(06:24):
to healing from the stress fromwork so you can get through the
next day, this is not a greatlong-term solution.
Sure, you can do it, butultimately what's going to
happen is you're going to loseout on other parts of your life
that you would have liked toengage with but maybe didn't
have the time because you'retaking so much recovery time
from work and in the long run,you're going to feel really
burned out from this.
This can have really bad longterm consequences environmental
(06:55):
factors in the workplace thatare affecting this.
So what can be done about it?
Of course, if we're looking atthat environmental piece and,
like you said, one of youroptions is to leave and there is
nothing wrong with leaving abad situation it's not some sort
of failure on your part if youdon't feel equipped to deal with
the situation or that youdecide that you don't want to
deal with the situation.
You need to take care ofyourself, and I've talked about
(07:20):
this in previous episodes, but Ido want to reiterate that it's
critical for leaders like youyourself already said you lead a
team to be able to manage theirself-care enough in order to be
regulated and responsive andpresent with your team.
And if you don't feel that youcan do that in a way that you
can really be there feeling notso stressed that you can't
handle those pieces, then Iwould really recommend maybe
(07:41):
looking at something else.
Because when leaders don't dothe self-care, when they're not
able to be that regulated, it'sactually unethical.
It really is the way that youtreat your staff, the way that
you're trying to support them tohelp solve their problems.
When you're that level ofstress you can't manage it, you
actually end up negativelyimpacting your team and I can
say this from previousexperience and from a lot of
(08:03):
studies that are done.
It's really hard to then beable to support your team fully.
So, making sure that if this isa situation you need to leave
so you can be healthy enough tolead a team, please consider
that.
I'm also going to add thatsometimes people you need to
leave so you can be healthyenough to lead a team.
Please consider that.
I'm also going to add thatsometimes people feel powerless
to leave a situation like this,like you can't leave because
this is the only job that willpay this well, or this is the
(08:25):
only organization that does thiswork, or this is the only
position that will give me allof these opportunities.
And sometimes people conflate,not wanting to face a specific
consequence, which thereobviously would be an impact
from choosing to leave, with nothaving the power to do so.
And really the point that willcome for you personally is when
(08:45):
you feel that that consequenceis now better than the thing
that you were leaving from right.
So if the consequence is betterthan all the stress that you're
dealing with from your boss,the consequence could be a
decrease in pay, or having topick a less interesting position
, or maybe having to relocate.
Those are all consequences thatcould happen, but you always do
(09:06):
have that choice, and so youneed to be weighing these on
your mind on what makes sense.
With that all said, fh, let'ssay that you decide to try to
stay, that this is important toyou and you want to tough it out
, see if things can get better.
There's a couple things you cando with your boss to improve the
situation you can listen, ofcourse, to some of our previous
episodes about feedback and toreally navigate that
(09:28):
relationship when you're in alower power situation.
And just because you are inthis position that has less
influence, obviously, than yourboss does, doesn't mean that you
have no power and it doesn'tmean that you can't influence
his behavior as well.
Right In the same way, whenleaders are managing staff who
are aggressive or passiveaggressive or passive or
(09:50):
unengaged or fearful whatevernegative behavior they're seeing
they can counteract that bybeing responsive and respectful,
by repairing harm if it happensand really taking
responsibility for the health ofthat relationship.
That shifts those people to abetter place.
In a similar way, though it maybe harder, people who are in
(10:11):
that staff position can alsotake leaders who are unaware or
reactionary, disrespectful,manipulative, self-serving.
And if these staff can actuallyshift that by being resilient
and collaborative, trusting,assertive and empowered, so you
(10:34):
have the ability to help movethis behavior in a better way.
Of course it sounds easier thanit is, but let's talk about a
few ways that we can do that tomake a difference.
And of course, in the idealworld, it would be the leaders
taking these steps, recognizingthey're having a negative impact
and being more, like I said,responsive and taking
(10:54):
responsibility for that healthof the relationship.
Since they're not doing it.
We're going to take it on asthe staff and really still work
to get our needs met.
And I want to start by sayingand this might be hard to
believe it is for a lot ofpeople is that most leaders I
have met have really goodintentions, even the ones that
are not behaving well, and theymight get clouded.
(11:15):
We know that leaders loseempathy.
This is actually aphysiological change that
happens when they've been inleadership positions for a
really long time.
We've talked about this inother episodes.
You can go back and listen theleader, your leader, might be
dealing poorly with some oftheir own personal challenges.
Right, they're not ethicallyself caring for themselves.
They may be reactive due totheir own trauma that they
(11:35):
haven't faced or unresolvedissues, but even with all of
that, at a deep level, peopleultimately want to do a good job
.
They want to support otherpeople and generally the biggest
problem is they have no idea.
They just haven't fullyconnected the negative impact
they're having on people withtheir actions.
So one of the things you can doto really change this is you
(11:59):
open this door for understanding, and there's two ways we can
address this.
The first one is reallyshifting the feedback that you
described as him cutting youdown.
It's a type of feedback not agood one, but it is a type of
feedback, and I don't knowexactly what he says to you.
But we're going to use anexample that he regularly says
you're stupid.
And that would hurt, that wouldsuck to hear.
(12:20):
I would hate it if a boss,every day or every couple days,
told me I was stupid.
So what we're going to do istry to help him, from our
position, reframe how he'sexpressing himself and what he
hopes for, so this feedbackchanges.
So let's say you do somethingthat he doesn't like and he
calls you stupid.
So let's try to do this adifferent way.
So, as calmly as you can, youcan ask him what would you have
(12:43):
preferred I would have done inthis situation?
Now you also mentioned he'dbeen micromanaging.
If he's been micromanaging, heprobably has a pretty big idea.
He'd probably have lots to sayto you about what you could have
done, and you want to keepasking questions, be engaged
with what he says.
So what specific behaviorswould be helpful?
What types of situations wouldI use this for in the future?
(13:05):
You know, all of those kinds ofquestions that really, really
clarify understanding here andat the end you calmly reiterate,
paraphrase what he said.
So you really show yourunderstanding and you're
confirming that it's right.
You can even paraphrase whatemotions you might have heard or
sensed in that situation isreally helpful.
So it seems like this is reallyfrustrating to you.
(13:27):
So you like it when I takethese steps, so you're really
bringing all of those piecestogether and then you want to
close by thanking him forexplaining it to you so you
understand his perspectivebetter.
One of these things that happensis people get upset because
they don't feel understood oragreed with and they perceive
that as a kind of rejection oreven disrespect.
(13:50):
Now, disagreement or notunderstanding is certainly not
disrespect or rejection.
But even if that is not thecase, we can mitigate this
perceived thing that they haveby really focusing on this
understanding, by reallydeveloping that.
So now you've really worked onmaking sure that you understand
your boss, his perspective,what's happening, and the second
(14:12):
part is you want to open up hisunderstanding of you and of
course, you want to do thiscarefully and slowly, but you
want him to ultimately get to apoint where he can understand
your experience and youremotions.
And so start small.
So I've really, maybe after hesaid all this, you've had this
question time.
I really appreciate you takingtime to explain a different way
(14:32):
that I could have handled things.
That because that helps me whatto do.
Can you continue to do thisinstead of using the word stupid
?
So just keep it very simple.
You're not saying I hate itwhen you use the word stupid,
you're not getting emotionalabout this, but you're adding
this piece that says I prefer Aover B.
When he does do thatexplanation, keep thanking him,
keep doing this more and moretimes.
(14:53):
Further.
When this is developed a littlebit, maybe he's doing better,
but he's still using the termusing stupid.
You can actually say moredirectly hey, look, I feel hurt
when I'm called stupid and Icould really use some compassion
or understanding with that.
Would you be willing to choosea different way to say that?
Or would you be willing tocontinue to give me more of
(15:14):
these explanations instead?
Because when we actively sharethose feelings, those needs,
that more personal piece onceagain, once you've practiced
this a bit and it feels moresafe, we get a different
response.
Right, he somehow might nothave realized that when he calls
you stupid, you are feelingthat or are willing to say that,
that it's that important to you, and then you can start
discussing solutions, becauseyou're together and you're in
(15:37):
understanding on this, and youcan use this for any behavior.
If he's constantly micromanaging, ask him what he feels he needs
to see in order to trust yourwork.
Ask if there would be a betterway to do check-ins, maybe
mention that you feel frustratedand it makes it hard to focus
when he's constantly checking inand now you're creating this
understanding you guys can moveforward with the solution
(15:58):
together.
Ultimately, this is really kindof training, or helping him see
this new way of understandinghimself, of understanding you,
and then you become a teamthat's working together to do
better, to work together better,to solve these problems better.
And I will say, though, if hisbehavior, if you try to do this
(16:18):
and his behavior is at the pointof shouting at you, cursing at
you, he absolutely refuses toanswer or do things another way,
or maybe even uses this tobelittle you more, in my opinion
, that would be a situation thatis, you're not going to solve
that with your skills andcapacity and power dynamic in
this role.
So that would be where I'dreally consider looking at maybe
(16:40):
other options or going toanother person in your company
that might be able to help.
Be very careful with this.
If it really is turning to be aworse situation, look at your
options.
But generally what happens whenpeople start employing these
skills is they see a change inbehavior.
They see this shift tosomething better, where there is
more empathy, where there ismore understanding.
(17:03):
So, fh, I hope that gave yousome good ideas and that you
have some concept of some newways that you might move forward
and not burn out quite so hard,and I'm really looking forward
to continuing our discussion.
And as a reminder to ourlisteners, if you have a story,
a question about leadershipyou've been burning to ask, I
would love to hear it, and soplease feel free to use that
(17:25):
link in the description belowand share it with us, and then,
as a thank you, I provide anextra free session just so we
can make sure we answer thequestion and as a way of saying
thank you.
This show is available inpodcast form If you prefer that.
It comes out Friday mornings.
So please use the link belowand download and enjoy from
wherever you like to listen toyour podcasts, and I want to
(17:46):
thank you so much for listeningtoday, for learning with me, for
finding new ways to adjust tothese crazy pieces of your life.
And, as we close, remember toask yourself what ripples are
you going to create this week?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Make sure to subscribe, commentand connect with Leah at
meetleahca.
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