September 27, 2024 • 13 mins
What if rethinking power dynamics could transform your workplace? Join us as we dive into the fascinating world of managing teams within organizations aiming for flattened hierarchies. Together, we unpack the deeply rooted nature of hierarchical structures in society and explore the pivotal role of power dynamics in professional relationships. Come learn the importance of understanding and ethically navigating power, in order to best support your team, and create meaningful change.
Can you navigate the tricky waters of trying to flatten hierarchy while being in a leadership position?
If you want to understand how to best support your team while decreasing power differentials, this is the episode for you!
To have your questions answered on the show, submit your story here: https://allthrive.ca/share-your-story
Leadership Ripples with Leah Fink is live every week at 12:00pm MST. Please join us to get answers to your leadership questions! https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-fink-all-thrive/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Every action you take as a leader has a ripple effect
, starting with your team, goingout to the organization and
even out into people's personallives.
Here we offer you the chance tolearn from real-life stories of
leadership so you can gain adeeper understanding and level
up your own skills Fromcommunication to culture, to
power and equity, to feedback,to resolving conflict and more.
(00:23):
Join us and make sure you'recreating the ripples you want.
Welcome to Leadership Rippleswith Leah Fink.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Leadership Ripples with Leah
Fink.
Today we are going to bediscussing how you can manage
your team when you're trying tomove away from a hierarchical
structure.
Rp shares their story with us.
I work for a smallnon-for-profit as a supervisor.
Our organization prides itselfon not being overly hierarchical
(00:53):
.
They talk about how everyone onthe team is equal and important
to the organization runningproperly.
I don't disagree that everyoneis important, but I'm having a
hard time with the idea of I'mstill supposed to be a
supervisor, but I'm alsosupposed to treat my employees
like they're on the same levelas me.
I feel like I get judged by mymanager if I do anything that
has me being authority figure tomy staff, but also I'm still
(01:17):
supposed to be guiding my team.
It's wearing me down and Ithink my staff are also
frustrated by it.
What can I do down, and I thinkmy staff are also frustrated by
it.
What can I do?
Rp, thank you so much forsharing your story and I can
certainly see how this would bea frustrating or tiring
situation.
You're highlighting a challengethat I think a lot of leaders
are going through right now,which is how to balance this
(01:39):
kind of flattening of ahierarchy, while still having
some sort of organizationalstructure.
And you may not realize it,hierarchy is just so ingrained
in our society, and especiallyin our view of jobs and the
positions that we take on, andpart of the reason for that is
because power is so present inall our lives, all our
relationships, and we are notalways aware of how that's
(02:02):
operating.
And you may have noticed ifyou've listened to the show
before, I talk a lot about power, and a lot of my perspective is
based on the right use of power.
So I want to give them a shoutout If you have not looked them
up yet.
If you search for the Right Useof Power Institute, you can
learn a lot more.
For me, this was a way oflooking at the world that
completely shifted how Iapproached people.
(02:24):
A way of looking at the worldthat completely shifted how I
approached people, how I did mywork and understanding the
impact that power has onrelationships was just
revolutionary.
So I very much encourage you togo and learn a little bit more
about them and support them,because it is truly a phenomenal
way of looking at the world.
That's what I do in my workwith leaders and teams.
That's why we talk about powerso much, and power is just the
(02:48):
ability to influence or createsome sort of change.
So it's not good or bad, butthere's different levels of
ability to influence in all ourrelationships and that's what
basically creates these powerdynamics that we live in.
Now, of course, there'sdifferent types of power that we
can have, and so it can becomplex to look at the interplay
of how this all appears in ourlives and relationships,
(03:09):
personally and professionally.
And the problem is, when welook at a story like today is
when you talk about flatteninghierarchy but you don't
understand this power, you don'tunderstand this complexity, it
can often end up with a negativeimpact or an impact that we
didn't hope for, because a lotof people, when they look at
(03:31):
flattening hierarchy, they don'tactually look at how they're
going to dismantle and recreatethe systems of power that are in
the workplace, let alone someof these societal pieces of
power dynamic that are verypresent in our lives and how we
see the world.
So, rp, let's look at yourorganization, and I'm going to
make an assumption based on thisquestion, that they're not 100%
(03:53):
done with figuring out thiswork solely for the fact that
your question exists.
There's still some confusionhere and if you're speaking
about having a manager who mightbe judging you on how you
interact with your staff,there's at least already a
couple levels of power dynamicthat exist in this organization.
It's not fully flat, they'rejust working to flatten, be less
(04:13):
hierarchical in how theyoperate.
So you're operating still in asystem where you have to report
to someone, as it were, that hasmore power and influence than
you and you have people that youhave more power influence than
and that probably that partprobably feels comfortable to us
, because that's the kind ofsystem you probably came from in
the workplace and many otherworkplaces operate on and, once
(04:36):
again, it's not a bad thing tohave that and it's not a bad
thing to want to shift how thislooks in the workplace.
We want to change that dynamicmaybe and the challenge really
comes in based on the reasonsand how we execute this.
So there could be someuncomfortability with power.
A lot of people actually arevery uncomfortable with power
(04:57):
and that's very understandableIf you look at all the misuses
and abuses of power that we seein the media every day and you
think of all the responsibilitythat and abuses of power that we
see in the media every day andyou think of all the
responsibility that you have totake on when you're in a
position of power, when you havethis influence over someone
else in some part of their life.
That can be really daunting, ofcourse it is, but when we're
(05:17):
daunted and uncomfortable andworried about abusing power, the
last thing we need to do is alittle bit of sticking our head
in the sand and trying topretend that the power just
doesn't exist, like if we ignoreit or try to not interact with
it, that'll just go away.
That's not what happens at all,and so, even though it's not
our intention, that's usuallywhat happens when people try to
(05:40):
flatten the hierarchies ordistribute power.
They're not actually fullyconscious of everything that's
going on, so they just end upkind of ignoring, and it ends up
in this limbo that it soundslike you're experiencing a
little bit of RP and RP.
Of course you're not the headof your organization.
Obviously there are layers ofdynamic above you, and so there
are big pieces of this thatyou're not able to change.
(06:01):
You're looking at how you canoperate in the system where they
want equity and equality, butthere is not full equality.
But let's look at a couplethings that you can do from your
position of first.
Focus on what resources youhave already.
So what was introduced to youwhen you first started with the
organization?
Was there any specific trainingor support around creating an
(06:23):
equal workplace that was givento you or that you still have an
access?
Maybe and what does your jobdescription say?
Do you have a good sense ofkind of what's outlined, what
the expectations are, becausethese are all great places where
you can start asking questionsfrom when you have as much
information as you can possiblyhave now you're going to seek
out other resources for that.
(06:45):
So let's say, for example, youhave a great job description.
It gives you some of therequirements of your job.
So it tells you what tasks youneed to accomplish as a
supervisor specifically.
So, for example, maybe you areresponsible in some way for your
team's performance or theiroutcomes or their development.
That would be a good examplewhere there is an expectation
(07:05):
that you use the power that'sinherent in your role and, once
again, this doesn't have to be abad thing if we're interacting
with it in a conscious, healthyway.
So now that you have this,there's a couple things you can
do with this information.
You could speak to your managerand ask how they uphold this
equal dynamic while alsosupporting staff performance.
Maybe they actually havealready had this discussion with
(07:26):
other people in theorganization and they have some
suggestions on how to do this ina way that feels really equal
to them, and you can do thiswith all parts of your role.
As you start to look, you cancontinue to question how they
can be handled in more equalways, and even if you have a
good relationship with yourmanager and you think they might
be open to this, you can pointout maybe some of these
(07:47):
inconsistencies of.
I've been told that I need tocreate an equal environment and
I've also been told that I needto fulfill these certain
requirements, and you can talkto them about what that looks
like and see how they respond.
And you can even mention, ofcourse, that your staff seem to
be confused or frustrated by alittle bit of this dichotomy or
(08:08):
inconsistency that's happening.
Maybe there's even specificbehaviors that they would know
about that are more or lesshelpful to create a sense of
equality.
And now just be careful whenyou hear about behavior.
Sometimes that can be aboutreally actually being helpful in
creating this equal space anddistributing power in a
healthier way, or they can beabout masking the power that
(08:31):
still exists.
So I'll leave that up to you tolook at that balance.
But you may get to make adecision on how deep in this
discussion you get to go withyour manager or other people
that support you.
Remember there is still a powerdynamic, so you still have that
vulnerability that this personis your leader.
So you get to decide how deepand how willing you are to
(08:52):
engage in a discussion like this.
But we've identified this powerexists in the workplace.
We've used the information andthe resources we have, like our
supervisor, to try to understandit better, to question some
things.
And now let's go to looking atour team and how you can be
supporting them, no matter whatyou're getting from your
organization, because eventhough there may not be fully
(09:15):
equal relationships in theorganization, there are ways to
work with your team to lessenthe power dynamic in a healthy
way and hopefully not frustratethem at the same time.
Now I like to think about thisusing more or less power, kind
of like an elastic, and thereare times you might need to
stretch the elastic and use alot of your power, overuse your
power.
Maybe there's an emergency inthe office and your team looks
(09:37):
to you for what to do and you'rejust going to tell them very
directly and they're going to doit.
That's a great use of power,right?
And that's a time you certainlywould want to use your power
like that, and there are othertimes when you really want to
flatten that elastic as much asit can possibly go and try to
create a very small powerdynamic, and that's what we're
talking about here.
So let's look at some of theplaces you can be doing that.
(10:00):
Are there decisions that can behanded off to individual team
members or the team that youdon't need to be a part of?
That?
You don't even need to giveyour input.
Now, don't give them a decisionto make that you do need to
have an input in, or that you dohave something in mind or a
certain thing that they have todo.
It's no, they have to have beable to have full autonomy over
that.
Then, once that happened, youhave to trust them and let it go
(10:23):
.
Are there tasks that you canfully assign to someone and that
you don't even need to confirmthat the task is done or give
them feedback about it.
Maybe another team member does.
Or even to our earlier exampleif you're looking at staff
performance, where you do haveto give feedback, how could you
create a power dynamic?
That's less.
You could ask them for specificfeedback.
Maybe you're everyone's givingeach other feedback, right?
(10:46):
There are different systemswhere we can take this from a
very strong I am a leader givingyou feedback to.
Okay, this is an opportunityfor both of us to give each
other feedback.
Maybe the team to give eachother feedback, for both of us
to give each other feedback.
Maybe the team to give eachother feedback.
So those are again lesseningthose power structures, while
not denying they exist and notpretending like they don't
impact us at all.
And, of course, you can findspaces where you can give this
(11:08):
influence and ability to createchange to anyone on your team.
And, like I said, then theimportant part is you need to
step back and you need to trustthem and ensure there's no part
of this that you're stillholding on to as the leader and
that you're holding on to thepower in the situation.
And if this is another placewhere you need to approach your
manager and say, I think I mightbe responsible for this outcome
(11:30):
, but to create this more equalspace, I want to try giving this
employee that ability.
You get that, go ahead.
You have extra support thatmight really help out as well.
So here's where your role as asupervisor can become about
providing clear instructions,about providing the structure.
Make sure everything is reallyclear and understood for them
(11:50):
and then back off so they canoperate more autonomously from
you.
Now this is a challenging placeto try to create this kind of
change from the middle of anorganization.
You're responsible for takingcare of your team and managing
the dynamics as they exist inthe best way for them, but you
may not have the ability tochange some of the larger pieces
(12:11):
in the organization that doimpact them, and in that way,
your role is similar to so manyother middle managers who are
trying to create change andtrying to support their teams
and not getting everything thatthey need from their management.
Hopefully, if your organizationis one that's trying to approach
this from a really healthyplace of caring and supporting
staff, that they will be open tohaving some more of these
(12:34):
conversations about what thatreally looks like, maybe you
challenging a little bit abouthow this hierarchy exists and
how you can work within thatwhile still acknowledging the
power, and that, hopefully, willhave a better result for you.
Now, rp, I hope this gives yousome ideas and I am really
looking forward to ourdiscussion, because this is a
really complex thing to try todiscuss on a short show.
(12:56):
We definitely need some time todive into it further and if you
are listening any other leaderswho are listening and you want
to talk and dive into thisfurther, I'd be happy to connect
.
There are links for that downbelow and please feel free to do
that because I would be happyto.
And, as a reminder to all ourlisteners, if you have a story
you want to share with us or aquestion you want to ask, please
(13:17):
do so.
You'll find the link for thatin the description and I do hope
you reach out.
I would love to have some ofthese could look in your
(13:38):
workplace to really being ableto explore some of this power
that's inherent in all our livesand, as we close, remember to
ask yourself what kind ofripples are you going to create
this week?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Make sure to subscribe, commentand connect with Leah at
meetleahca.
Every action you take as a leader has a ripple effect
, starting with your team, goingout to the organization and
even out into people's personallives.
Here we offer you the chance tolearn from real-life stories of
leadership so you can gain adeeper understanding and level
up your own skills Fromcommunication to culture, to
power and equity, to feedback,to resolving conflict and more.
(00:23):
Join us and make sure you'recreating the ripples you want.
Welcome to Leadership Rippleswith Leah Fink.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Leadership Ripples with Leah
Fink.
Today we are going to bediscussing how you can manage
your team when you're trying tomove away from a hierarchical
structure.
Rp shares their story with us.
I work for a smallnon-for-profit as a supervisor.
Our organization prides itselfon not being overly hierarchical
(00:53):
.
They talk about how everyone onthe team is equal and important
to the organization runningproperly.
I don't disagree that everyoneis important, but I'm having a
hard time with the idea of I'mstill supposed to be a
supervisor, but I'm alsosupposed to treat my employees
like they're on the same levelas me.
I feel like I get judged by mymanager if I do anything that
has me being authority figure tomy staff, but also I'm still
(01:17):
supposed to be guiding my team.
It's wearing me down and Ithink my staff are also
frustrated by it.
What can I do down, and I thinkmy staff are also frustrated by
it.
What can I do?
Rp, thank you so much forsharing your story and I can
certainly see how this would bea frustrating or tiring
situation.
You're highlighting a challengethat I think a lot of leaders
are going through right now,which is how to balance this
(01:39):
kind of flattening of ahierarchy, while still having
some sort of organizationalstructure.
And you may not realize it,hierarchy is just so ingrained
in our society, and especiallyin our view of jobs and the
positions that we take on, andpart of the reason for that is
because power is so present inall our lives, all our
relationships, and we are notalways aware of how that's
(02:02):
operating.
And you may have noticed ifyou've listened to the show
before, I talk a lot about power, and a lot of my perspective is
based on the right use of power.
So I want to give them a shoutout If you have not looked them
up yet.
If you search for the Right Useof Power Institute, you can
learn a lot more.
For me, this was a way oflooking at the world that
completely shifted how Iapproached people.
(02:24):
A way of looking at the worldthat completely shifted how I
approached people, how I did mywork and understanding the
impact that power has onrelationships was just
revolutionary.
So I very much encourage you togo and learn a little bit more
about them and support them,because it is truly a phenomenal
way of looking at the world.
That's what I do in my workwith leaders and teams.
That's why we talk about powerso much, and power is just the
(02:48):
ability to influence or createsome sort of change.
So it's not good or bad, butthere's different levels of
ability to influence in all ourrelationships and that's what
basically creates these powerdynamics that we live in.
Now, of course, there'sdifferent types of power that we
can have, and so it can becomplex to look at the interplay
of how this all appears in ourlives and relationships,
(03:09):
personally and professionally.
And the problem is, when welook at a story like today is
when you talk about flatteninghierarchy but you don't
understand this power, you don'tunderstand this complexity, it
can often end up with a negativeimpact or an impact that we
didn't hope for, because a lotof people, when they look at
(03:31):
flattening hierarchy, they don'tactually look at how they're
going to dismantle and recreatethe systems of power that are in
the workplace, let alone someof these societal pieces of
power dynamic that are verypresent in our lives and how we
see the world.
So, rp, let's look at yourorganization, and I'm going to
make an assumption based on thisquestion, that they're not 100%
(03:53):
done with figuring out thiswork solely for the fact that
your question exists.
There's still some confusionhere and if you're speaking
about having a manager who mightbe judging you on how you
interact with your staff,there's at least already a
couple levels of power dynamicthat exist in this organization.
It's not fully flat, they'rejust working to flatten, be less
(04:13):
hierarchical in how theyoperate.
So you're operating still in asystem where you have to report
to someone, as it were, that hasmore power and influence than
you and you have people that youhave more power influence than
and that probably that partprobably feels comfortable to us
, because that's the kind ofsystem you probably came from in
the workplace and many otherworkplaces operate on and, once
(04:36):
again, it's not a bad thing tohave that and it's not a bad
thing to want to shift how thislooks in the workplace.
We want to change that dynamicmaybe and the challenge really
comes in based on the reasonsand how we execute this.
So there could be someuncomfortability with power.
A lot of people actually arevery uncomfortable with power
(04:57):
and that's very understandableIf you look at all the misuses
and abuses of power that we seein the media every day and you
think of all the responsibilitythat and abuses of power that we
see in the media every day andyou think of all the
responsibility that you have totake on when you're in a
position of power, when you havethis influence over someone
else in some part of their life.
That can be really daunting, ofcourse it is, but when we're
(05:17):
daunted and uncomfortable andworried about abusing power, the
last thing we need to do is alittle bit of sticking our head
in the sand and trying topretend that the power just
doesn't exist, like if we ignoreit or try to not interact with
it, that'll just go away.
That's not what happens at all,and so, even though it's not
our intention, that's usuallywhat happens when people try to
(05:40):
flatten the hierarchies ordistribute power.
They're not actually fullyconscious of everything that's
going on, so they just end upkind of ignoring, and it ends up
in this limbo that it soundslike you're experiencing a
little bit of RP and RP.
Of course you're not the headof your organization.
Obviously there are layers ofdynamic above you, and so there
are big pieces of this thatyou're not able to change.
(06:01):
You're looking at how you canoperate in the system where they
want equity and equality, butthere is not full equality.
But let's look at a couplethings that you can do from your
position of first.
Focus on what resources youhave already.
So what was introduced to youwhen you first started with the
organization?
Was there any specific trainingor support around creating an
(06:23):
equal workplace that was givento you or that you still have an
access?
Maybe and what does your jobdescription say?
Do you have a good sense ofkind of what's outlined, what
the expectations are, becausethese are all great places where
you can start asking questionsfrom when you have as much
information as you can possiblyhave now you're going to seek
out other resources for that.
(06:45):
So let's say, for example, youhave a great job description.
It gives you some of therequirements of your job.
So it tells you what tasks youneed to accomplish as a
supervisor specifically.
So, for example, maybe you areresponsible in some way for your
team's performance or theiroutcomes or their development.
That would be a good examplewhere there is an expectation
(07:05):
that you use the power that'sinherent in your role and, once
again, this doesn't have to be abad thing if we're interacting
with it in a conscious, healthyway.
So now that you have this,there's a couple things you can
do with this information.
You could speak to your managerand ask how they uphold this
equal dynamic while alsosupporting staff performance.
Maybe they actually havealready had this discussion with
(07:26):
other people in theorganization and they have some
suggestions on how to do this ina way that feels really equal
to them, and you can do thiswith all parts of your role.
As you start to look, you cancontinue to question how they
can be handled in more equalways, and even if you have a
good relationship with yourmanager and you think they might
be open to this, you can pointout maybe some of these
(07:47):
inconsistencies of.
I've been told that I need tocreate an equal environment and
I've also been told that I needto fulfill these certain
requirements, and you can talkto them about what that looks
like and see how they respond.
And you can even mention, ofcourse, that your staff seem to
be confused or frustrated by alittle bit of this dichotomy or
(08:08):
inconsistency that's happening.
Maybe there's even specificbehaviors that they would know
about that are more or lesshelpful to create a sense of
equality.
And now just be careful whenyou hear about behavior.
Sometimes that can be aboutreally actually being helpful in
creating this equal space anddistributing power in a
healthier way, or they can beabout masking the power that
(08:31):
still exists.
So I'll leave that up to you tolook at that balance.
But you may get to make adecision on how deep in this
discussion you get to go withyour manager or other people
that support you.
Remember there is still a powerdynamic, so you still have that
vulnerability that this personis your leader.
So you get to decide how deepand how willing you are to
(08:52):
engage in a discussion like this.
But we've identified this powerexists in the workplace.
We've used the information andthe resources we have, like our
supervisor, to try to understandit better, to question some
things.
And now let's go to looking atour team and how you can be
supporting them, no matter whatyou're getting from your
organization, because eventhough there may not be fully
(09:15):
equal relationships in theorganization, there are ways to
work with your team to lessenthe power dynamic in a healthy
way and hopefully not frustratethem at the same time.
Now I like to think about thisusing more or less power, kind
of like an elastic, and thereare times you might need to
stretch the elastic and use alot of your power, overuse your
power.
Maybe there's an emergency inthe office and your team looks
(09:37):
to you for what to do and you'rejust going to tell them very
directly and they're going to doit.
That's a great use of power,right?
And that's a time you certainlywould want to use your power
like that, and there are othertimes when you really want to
flatten that elastic as much asit can possibly go and try to
create a very small powerdynamic, and that's what we're
talking about here.
So let's look at some of theplaces you can be doing that.
(10:00):
Are there decisions that can behanded off to individual team
members or the team that youdon't need to be a part of?
That?
You don't even need to giveyour input.
Now, don't give them a decisionto make that you do need to
have an input in, or that you dohave something in mind or a
certain thing that they have todo.
It's no, they have to have beable to have full autonomy over
that.
Then, once that happened, youhave to trust them and let it go
(10:23):
.
Are there tasks that you canfully assign to someone and that
you don't even need to confirmthat the task is done or give
them feedback about it.
Maybe another team member does.
Or even to our earlier exampleif you're looking at staff
performance, where you do haveto give feedback, how could you
create a power dynamic?
That's less.
You could ask them for specificfeedback.
Maybe you're everyone's givingeach other feedback, right?
(10:46):
There are different systemswhere we can take this from a
very strong I am a leader givingyou feedback to.
Okay, this is an opportunityfor both of us to give each
other feedback.
Maybe the team to give eachother feedback, for both of us
to give each other feedback.
Maybe the team to give eachother feedback.
So those are again lesseningthose power structures, while
not denying they exist and notpretending like they don't
impact us at all.
And, of course, you can findspaces where you can give this
(11:08):
influence and ability to createchange to anyone on your team.
And, like I said, then theimportant part is you need to
step back and you need to trustthem and ensure there's no part
of this that you're stillholding on to as the leader and
that you're holding on to thepower in the situation.
And if this is another placewhere you need to approach your
manager and say, I think I mightbe responsible for this outcome
(11:30):
, but to create this more equalspace, I want to try giving this
employee that ability.
You get that, go ahead.
You have extra support thatmight really help out as well.
So here's where your role as asupervisor can become about
providing clear instructions,about providing the structure.
Make sure everything is reallyclear and understood for them
(11:50):
and then back off so they canoperate more autonomously from
you.
Now this is a challenging placeto try to create this kind of
change from the middle of anorganization.
You're responsible for takingcare of your team and managing
the dynamics as they exist inthe best way for them, but you
may not have the ability tochange some of the larger pieces
(12:11):
in the organization that doimpact them, and in that way,
your role is similar to so manyother middle managers who are
trying to create change andtrying to support their teams
and not getting everything thatthey need from their management.
Hopefully, if your organizationis one that's trying to approach
this from a really healthyplace of caring and supporting
staff, that they will be open tohaving some more of these
(12:34):
conversations about what thatreally looks like, maybe you
challenging a little bit abouthow this hierarchy exists and
how you can work within thatwhile still acknowledging the
power, and that, hopefully, willhave a better result for you.
Now, rp, I hope this gives yousome ideas and I am really
looking forward to ourdiscussion, because this is a
really complex thing to try todiscuss on a short show.
(12:56):
We definitely need some time todive into it further and if you
are listening any other leaderswho are listening and you want
to talk and dive into thisfurther, I'd be happy to connect
.
There are links for that downbelow and please feel free to do
that because I would be happyto.
And, as a reminder to all ourlisteners, if you have a story
you want to share with us or aquestion you want to ask, please
(13:17):
do so.
You'll find the link for thatin the description and I do hope
you reach out.
I would love to have some ofthese could look in your
(13:38):
workplace to really being ableto explore some of this power
that's inherent in all our livesand, as we close, remember to
ask yourself what kind ofripples are you going to create
this week?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Make sure to subscribe, commentand connect with Leah at
meetleahca.
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