July 27, 2023 • 35 mins
Ever wondered what's it like to make a major career transition? Join me, as I sit down with the inspiring Carol Fabrizio, a former lawyer turned executive coach and leadership consultant. Carol's journey is filled with insightful tips about navigating transitions, embracing the discomfort of change, and the importance of listening to our intuition. Her experiences shed light on the critical aspects of reshaping one's identity during these significant shifts in life and career.
Carol emphasizes the role of feedback in our lives and how it aids in self-awareness and decision-making. Drawing from her days as a Chief of Staff, she shares how she learned to view feedback as a data point, a gift that fosters growth. But beyond professional life, we explore how these experiences and learnings apply to our personal lives too. We delve into the essence of intuition, and how experimenting or 'prototyping' can help us understand our gut feelings better.
Lastly, Carol and I discuss the role of support systems in our leadership journeys. We chat about how a supportive community can help us become exceptional leaders. So tune in, as we navigate this enriching conversation filled with life and leadership lessons. And remember, it's not about getting it right all the time, it's about learning and growing along the way.
Carol Fabrizio has made several moves in her life that has resulted in her landing in Illinois to raise her family with her wife and son. Her journey of transitions and positions ranging from big law lawyer, in-house counsel, a chief of staff, and Chief Communications and Marketing Officer, have helped her become an expert in transitions.
While she did not always enjoy the process, she understands the opportunities for beauty and necessity for growth in every transition.
When she is not coaching, you can find her with her family, reading books, lifting heavy things, being outdoors, or enjoying something chocolate.
Produced by Kyla Cofer
Edited by Neel Panji @ PodLeaF Productions
Assistant Production Alaina Hulette
Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please support us on Patreon.
For more leadership tools, check out the free workbooks at KylaCofer.com/freestuff.
Book Kyla to speak at your event here, or to connect further, reach out to Kyla on LinkedIn and Instagram.
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Produced by Kyla Cofer
Edited by Neel Panji @ PodLeaF Productions
Assistant Production Alaina Hulette
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carol Fabrizio (00:00):
If you are questioning, if you are
wondering what else you want todo with your life, either that's
personally a word you're notdoing it wrong.
In fact, you're doing it right.
I think the wrong way you cando it is to get on the treadmill
of life and never question ifwe want something different or
more something outside of whatwe thought we wanted twenty
years ago.
Kyla Cofer (00:27):
Welcome to the Leadership School podcast.
I'm your host, leadership andself care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal, teach you how to bean extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:53):
I am introducing you today toCarol Fabrizio.
She is a former employer,turned executive coach.
She talks today abouttransitions, how to navigate
transitions, but also how tonavigate feedback.
And surprisingly enough, thosetwo things actually ended up
tying together in ourconversation.
And if you're not following usyet on Patreon, this is a really
(01:14):
good episode to do so becauseafter our interview, we take a
post interview conversation.
We put that whole thing onPatreon where I ask all my
guests, what does integrity meanto you?
What does balance look like toyou?
And all the answers vary quitea bit so it's really fun
conversation.
But then we just talk and wechat just having normal
discussion.
Today, we even talked aboutreligion.
(01:34):
So this is a great chance tojump in.
And sponsor us on Patreon.
Help this episode keep goingand supporting other growing
leaders like yourself.
Thanks so much for listening.
Enjoy this conversation withCarol Fabrizio.
Carol, I really appreciate you,joining me today.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation.
We're gonna be talking a littlebit about feedback and
transitions.
And all of that as well as yourstory.
(01:55):
So why don't you just kick usoff?
Thanks for being here, and whydon't you help help us get
started by sharing a little bitabout your story.
What brings you here?
Carol Fabrizio (02:01):
Yeah.
Thanks, Kyla.
I appreciate you having me on.
So we are going to talk abouttransitions today, and I've made
a lot of them personally.
I am an executive coach andleadership consultant now, but
that's not how I started.
I actually started as a lawyerin a big law firm out in LA and
then I moved in house, and thenI thought I'd found the thing I
wanted to do forever.
(02:22):
But instead of doing thatforever, I became chief of staff
to a CEO who is an amazingleader, and I got really
passionate about leadershipgoing on.
Kyla Cofer (02:31):
Let me interrupt you .
Was that still in law, thatposition?
Was it still in the field oflaw?
Carol Fabrizio (02:36):
No.
As an in house counsel, I wasstill working as a lawyer, but
just for the company that Iworked for, instead of for many
clients.
And then the chief of staffrole is, of course, variable
across anything that the CEO isdoing.
So, totally blew up my career alittle bit by doing that.
And then fell in love withleadership development.
And so I actually was the headof communications for that
(02:57):
company and then chiefcommunications officer for a
course organization beforedeciding to move to executive
coaching and leadershipconsulting full time.
That's how I got to where I amtoday.
Kyla Cofer (03:08):
What led you to doing the executive and
leadership coaching?
Like, I mean, that was atransition, but, like, what Why
is it that propelled you intothat?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The why.
Carol Fabrizio (03:16):
So of all of those transitions, I never felt
like I'm unhappy in my role, andI have to change something to
get to what it was always anexpansion of my own kind of
curiosity.
Like, oh, what if I did that,sir?
What if I tried to do thisother And so part of what
happened when I was the chief ofstaff role is that there was
always meant to be a rotationalrole.
(03:36):
And so I knew that I was gonnago lead communications after
this role.
But I didn't have anybackground in communication.
So I decided to get my coachingcertification just to get some
additional skills to figure outcan I be a better leader when I
don't have all these?
Because as a lawyer, you kindof have some sick matter
expertise, you're supposed toyou're supposed to be able to
find the answers.
(03:56):
And when you're leading peoplethat are experts in something
you're not an expert in, youneed more of those skills.
So that that was one piece.
And then the second piece was Iwas in a company that really
valued leadership development.
So the idea that you could movein the agile and try your
leadership in different areasand different functions, is
something that was kind ofingrained in the culture.
(04:17):
And so that's one of thereasons that I just continued my
passion for it is because itwas part of the water I was
putting in.
Kyla Cofer (04:25):
That makes sense.
So you talk a lot abouttransitions.
So tell me about thesetransitions.
You've transitioned a lot fromattorney to chief of staff to
executive leadership coachingand all of these other things in
between to parent, all of thisstuff.
So how have you navigatedpersonally some of those
transitions.
Because transitions is hard,especially, like, if you've had
to move cities, that can bereally challenging in between
(04:46):
all that and you've got to beflexible and you got culture
shock with the changes inenvironments.
So talk about that a little bitabout how you personally
navigated that.
Carol Fabrizio (04:55):
Yeah.
I think part of the reason it'sso hard is because whenever we
transition some big part of ourlife, particularly in our career
or when we move from beingsingle to being married or not
having kids to being a parent.
All of those things require usto kind of restate and question
our identity.
We write these stories aboutour lives as we move through
(05:15):
them.
And then when these big piecesof our identity change, all of a
sudden, we are changing ourstory.
We're changing our narrative.
That is exciting in some waybecause you're probably moving
towards something that youreally want.
But there's also some grief inthere.
Right?
Because you're losing part ofwho you were.
And so those transitions, Ithink, part of the magic in them
(05:35):
is holding both of those at thesame time.
It's consciously deciding onwilling to let go of this to say
I wanna go after this.
And so just in that in thatfirst piece.
I was at a big law firm thatyou work really hard.
They pay really well.
And when I first got there, Ithought, oh, I'm gonna be a
partner one day.
But after, you know, six monthsa year, I knew that that's
(05:57):
really not the lifestyle Iwanted.
I was gonna look for somethingelse.
And even though I didn't knowit that was, I knew that there
was something more aligned withwho I wanted to be.
And that means letting go ofthat idea that I'm gonna be this
high powered law partner at alaw firm.
And so every time you gothrough one of those
transitions, it requiresacknowledging the loss and
figuring out the future.
(06:18):
And that takes time.
And so dealing with theuncertainty that discomfort that
kind of break in between thepast and the future that is a
skill by itself to just sitthere?
Kyla Cofer (06:30):
It really is.
I'm so glad you mentioned thegrief because I thought through
a lot of my transitions andthat's been a big part of them
is acknowledging that that it'sactually a type of greeting
because you are experiencingsome sort of loss.
Let me ask you this, how longhad you wanted to be an attorney
and a big time attorney?
Like, how long had you had thatdream?
Carol Fabrizio (06:47):
Good question.
It actually I was not one ofthose kids who was like, oh, I
have to do this.
I'm gonna be a lawyer.
So in fact, everybody in myfamily is in medicine somewhere
in nursing a doctor or somethinglike that.
So I was already kind of in theblack sheep for going into law.
I mean, he spent a lot of timeand effort on getting through
law school.
I went to a private universityfor law school.
So I had plenty of law schooldebt, plenty of reasons to
(07:09):
continue down that road.
That kind of some college, thatkind of really caught me.
But I also knew ultimatelythose were not the right reasons
to stay in it.
So it wasn't luckily, I Iwasn't too attached to that
being who I was fifty forever.
Kyla Cofer (07:22):
That's good that you weren't too attached to it
because that moving on, it makesthat moving on that transition
easier.
And when you are reallyattached to something, it it is
a big loss because like yousaid, you you're losing that
financial investment, that timeinvestment.
But what about not seeing it asa loss?
Like, you're seeing it and youdid make investments in
yourself, and that investmentled you to the next step
Carol Fabrizio (07:41):
-- Yeah.
--
Kyla Cofer (07:42):
and and push you to the next place.
So that next place for you wasthis chief of staff job -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (07:46):
--
Kyla Cofer (07:46):
and moving on.
So what are some other thingsthat have helped you through
some of those transitions?
Accepting, acknowledging thatgrief, and working through that
in a grief.
And that takes time.
It's not like a well, I'm sadtoday.
That's why I'm gonna know myshoes that I'll be over it.
You know?
Carol Fabrizio (07:59):
Yeah.
So a couple of things.
One is, it's not easy to sit inthat unsure space.
Right?
So Now looking back, it's easyto say, oh, I have this
transition.
It wasn't so great.
I ended up first just movingfrom a law firm lawyer to an in
house counsel position.
But I will tell you thattransition by itself, I think I
applied to that in house role inOctober, and I didn't get the
(08:21):
job until June.
And that was one of the longestnine months of my life because
I didn't think I got the job.
And so then I was questioningeverything.
Do I really wanna be a lawyer?
Do I wanna go to FBI.
Do I want to put everything andbe a personal trainer?
I have all of these ideas aboutwhat could be possible.
And in that uncertainty it's somuch questioning.
It's guilt.
(08:42):
Did I do the wrong thing?
It's excitement.
What could be possible?
And so all of these feelingscome up.
And now, it sounds great tolook back and say, oh, yeah.
That's part of the process.
But when you're in it, itdoesn't feel like that.
It feels awful.
And so I think when thosethings come up now that I see
them and I see this as a pattern.
And I see it as a pattern withmy clients.
Right?
They're worried because theyfeel grateful.
(09:02):
Maybe that means I didsomething wrong in changing
roles.
Or they're worried that thenext decision has to be the
exact right one.
If they're going to changecareers, then the next one
better be their careers solemate of sorts.
Right?
And so in addition toacknowledging all the fields,
I'd say the other part that'sreally important is just holding
it a little less tightly.
(09:22):
And what I do by that is beinga little bit playful, a little
bit exploratory, and a littlebit willing to just try things
out.
There's a metaphor I like touse with clients sometimes that
if you took your kids, Kaila,and you wanted to figure out
what sports they wanted to playin high school, which is many
years away.
You wouldn't say, okay, let'sgo look on paper and see all the
(09:44):
different sports that there are.
And then we will pick from thislist of sports, the one you're
gonna do for the rest of yourlife.
So that's kinda how we choose amajor and then a job and then a
career.
Right?
As we just guess kind of at thebeginning of what we sort of
like and then we stick with it.
So if if you were gonna getyour kids to do something like
that, you would have them go tryit out, go go play, soccer for
(10:07):
a couple of weeks.
Go play basketball.
See if you like things.
That's the kind of exploratorymindset that I think we have to
have around these bigtransitions, is not making it so
final whenever we want toexplore something.
Kyla Cofer (10:22):
Part of that is just like we are allowing ourselves
to really be free -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (10:27):
--
Kyla Cofer (10:27):
right, allowing ourselves to have the freedom to
be who we are and to explorethat and figure that out because
we'll be a hundred and yearsold and still trying to be like,
well, who am I?
You know, we we're always justfiguring things out about
ourselves and getting to knowourselves a little bit too.
So is that, like, exploringlife?
And then -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (10:44):
--
Kyla Cofer (10:44):
and what do you say to people who say, yeah, but
you've got to commit tosomething?
Carol Fabrizio (10:48):
Yeah.
Sure.
And to some degree, you do.
Right?
In the sense that if you don'tcommit to anything, you won't
actually know if it fits you ornot.
It'd be easy to just keeptrying things out, but almost
everybody I work with is notafraid of commitment.
So just aren't a lot of theleaders I see.
If anything, they're too afraidto quit.
Quit a job, quit a career, quita narrative, quit an identity.
(11:09):
And so you can always go backto something.
If you're like, actually,that's more who I was aligned
and that's more who I wanna bein the future.
Then you can go back to that.
I can always decide I wanna bea lawyer again.
And, yeah, I would have lostsome years of experience and on,
but I gave lots of years ofexperience in these other areas.
So you're not losing somethingforever if you try something
(11:29):
else on.
And so that's what I thinkgiving ourselves the permission
to do that and allow ourselvesto have that is more of what
people need the courage to do.
This this notion of people liketrying things for a couple
months as they're moving on andtrying things for a couple
months.
I don't see a lot of that.
And I know it's a little bit ofa trouble search generation,
but to be honest, don't workwith anybody and hadn't seen a
(11:52):
lot of that in my own work.
Kyla Cofer (11:54):
Well, I really appreciate it.
You said the word couragebecause we're gonna be talking
about I feel like courage isgonna be kind of a theme over
the summer here at theleadership school because some
of it is that courage is thatcourage defining who you are to
lead well.
To really be yourself and to dothings that are hard or to stay
when it's hard or to leave whenit's hard and being willing to
explore that a little bit, butalso giving yourself permission
(12:15):
to do things that are right foryou.
And because at the end of theday, our life is what we make it
.
And our our life is what we'vethe decisions that we've made
for ourselves And at the end ofthe day, it doesn't matter what
our parents thought of us.
It's what we thought.
And it's how we accepted andloved our life or didn't love
our life.
You know?
And if you're in a place whereyou're just completely miserable
(12:35):
and it's getting worse andworse and worse, then why are
you choosing to stay in a placethat's creating that misery
because that's not what life isabout.
So what you're talking about isunderstanding, like, those deep
desires that we have andaccepting them to be able to
move us forward to the nextthing in our life, whatever that
is, and to be able to make thattransition with grace.
So are there some, like, tipsthat you have in how to really
(12:57):
make those transitions?
Well, as you said, kind ofaccepting the grief,
acknowledging the grief, andbeing excited about it moving
you forward.
What else would you say tosomeone who's like in the middle
of the transition?
Carol Fabrizio (13:06):
Why is it?
Just going backing up one spacein the transition is that
decision.
That space of should I make achange, what kind of a change
should I make?
And I would say here thedisconnect I see with a lot of
folks is when their head issaying one thing and their
intuition, their gut is sayinganother thing.
Like, they're trying to talkthemselves into stay or they're
trying to talk themselves intoleaving.
(13:26):
But because they think it's onpaper the right thing to do, of
that deeper inner knowing andsaying something different.
Their gut keeps nudging themand something keeps bubbling up
and saying, this isn't right.
But their brain is saying oh,wait a minute, like, you're
making good money here or youhave, you know, enough time to
do a client fee or you spentyears and years studying for
that, shouldn't you do it?
(13:47):
And so the first I would say isto try to quiet your analytical
mind for a minute.
And listen to your heart andyour intuition.
And, just seeing Justin, whatis the disconnect between those
three, your head, your heart,and your gut?
And try to just let that bethere for a minute because
something is there.
And if we can acknowledge that,then I think there's that opens
(14:08):
up the door to a lot ofquestioning that we don't
otherwise do.
Because most of us stay in ourheads all the time.
And so just acknowledging thatthere's a disconnect and asking
those questions to be a hugestep forward.
Kyla Cofer (14:19):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's what we do incoaching.
Right?
So we're like, where are you?
What's going on with you now?
Where is it that you wanna go?
And, like, let's try and closethat gap.
And sometimes people get reallyparalyzed because they're like,
but I don't know where I wantto go.
I don't know.
But I think we do know.
And sometimes it's that whatyou said, that's that decision.
It's hard to get that outbecause sometimes we're afraid,
(14:40):
because we have to work throughthose questions of what will I
be losing if I make this choiceor if I do decide to do
something completely different,you know.
And sometimes we would hit inthose deep parts of ourselves,
like those like, the deepestdesires or deepest dreams
because we didn't feel like theywere available to us.
Carol Fabrizio (14:58):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so just acknowledging thatthose are there.
Right, and taking them up andeven saying, even if you're not
sure exactly what it is that youwant or want to do or want next
in your life, if you canpicture a decision and just kind
of thematically tune in, like,how does your body react?
Do you feel a sense ofcontraction if you think about
this one choice of staying inyour current position or staying
(15:20):
in your current company orwhenever the choice is for you,
or does it feel like a relief,like an opening like, an
expansion of some sort.
Because our our body does havethat intuitive sense of those
feelings.
And so it's not the samedecision for everybody right?
And so sometimes that reliefcan come from saying, you know
what, actually, I'm really goodhere.
I'm gonna keep doing this.
And sometimes that relief comesfrom saying, I don't know what
(15:42):
it is, but I know it's not that.
And so allowing yourself tojust see if your brain is
running on a hamster wheel ofshould I do this?
Should I not?
Just see how your body reacts?
Because sometimes, there's kindof hidden wisdom in how we
react.
And it's almost crazy hearingmyself talk like this because
ten years ago, I was all in myhead.
And so just realizing that ourheart and our intuition our gut
(16:05):
give us so much wisdom.
It's something that's beenreally important for me in my
transition.
Kyla Cofer (16:11):
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(16:35):
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(16:57):
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(17:19):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Like, being able to trust thatintuition and finding a way to
pull that out of us.
You know, I asked somebodyrecently, she was saying, but I
don't really know what I want.
And so then I said, okay.
Well, let's think about like ayear from now.
And sometimes it's even go tofive years from now to think
about that far ahead becauseit's not here.
And so it does it.
(17:39):
Our brains can handle that.
If we say five years, whatwould your dream life look like
in five years?
It does not take us long toanswer that question.
It really doesn't.
And then we go, wait a second.
In five years, I was dreamingfive years from now to have
these things.
Then you realize, okay, wait,I'm not even on that path.
If that's my dream, like, howdo I put myself on that path?
Carol Fabrizio (18:03):
There's one other thing that is almost the
opposite of that that I like todo too because this is kind of
my bias, is sometimes speakingtoo far ahead makes it feel to
me like, oh, well, what if Imake one degree wrong on the
path and then I don't get there?
And so I like to start withinstead of thinking five hundred
steps ahead, just thinking likeone, two, three, five, ten
(18:24):
steps right now.
You have maybe these four orfive options to you.
And let's see which one feelsthe most in tune and aligned
with your values, with the lifeyou want right now with the way
you wanna change your life.
If you want more x, y, and z,then which one of these five
choices feels like it's a littlebit closer to that.
(18:44):
And so we're talking about thefirst couple steps instead of
the last couple steps, which cansometimes seem a little bit
more accessible to people.
Kyla Cofer (18:51):
Absolutely.
I always love the gym analogiesbecause it's just something
that people understand, like,you wanna lose fifty pounds or
you wanna be the buffest personin the gym?
Well, like, you go the firstday for five minutes.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
The first step is to get a gymmembership or whatever that
first step is.
It's like, let's just take thesmall things because that's
manageable.
You know, how do you eat anelephant, one bite at a time and
(19:12):
it's just little things hereand there.
So let's transition and talk alittle bit because we wanted to
get to talking about somefeedback today.
So we wanted to talkspecifically about what it looks
like to give and receivefeedback because you've had to
do a lot of this.
As chief of staff.
So tell us a little bit aboutlike what the word feedback
means for you.
Carol Fabrizio (19:31):
Here's what I thought feedback was when I
started my chief of staffposition.
I thought it was the truthabout how you're doing.
Right?
I thought it's somebody tellingyou what is true about your
performance in some way.
And what's so awful about thatparticular description is that
we fear it.
And especially if you're a highachiever of some sort or you've
(19:54):
dealt with perfectionism in anysort of way feedback, which we
usually need constructivefeedback or some kind of
criticism.
Is something you don't reallywant it and you say you want it,
but you don't really want itbecause that means you didn't do
perfectly.
And so I would like a feedbackthat's more like hey, could you
change the font on this and lesson, hey, you have to rethink
this entire strategy becausethis isn't brilliant.
(20:16):
And so I really didn't want it.
And when I started the chief ofstaff position, what I found
out very quickly was that I wasgonna get a lot of feedback
every day.
And because that was just therelationship that I had with the
CEO, and it wasn't because I'vebeen doing terribly.
But because he actually reallycared about my development and
he valued my development and ourrelationship and how well we
(20:39):
were gonna do together more thanthe comfort I'm not giving
somebody feedback.
So that is where I learned toget it and get really
comfortable with it with reps.
Because I got feedback everyday and I gave feedback every
day, upward feedback to the CEOabout how he was doing.
He'd never let me off the hookwith that.
He always asked for my feedback.
(20:59):
And so I got really, reallycomfortable with it.
And now when I think of what isfeedback, I think it's a data
point, not a directive.
And so that is something for methat has become really
important.
It's not the truth in the senseof everybody feels this way
about something you've done.
It is a data point.
It's one person.
(21:19):
Maybe a couple of more peopleare responding.
It's their opinion about somepiece of work that you've done
or some way that you've shown up.
And so you can just take thatdata point and decide what to do
with it.
It's not a directive in thesense of I think your too this,
so you have to change.
And I'll share an example.
As a leader, I can be a littlebit tense I can be very decisive
(21:43):
.
I can move very quickly.
Some people in my game thinkthat's awesome.
Some people have said, yes.
I love that.
We don't get caught inbottlenecks.
We move quickly.
Thank you for being so decisive.
Thank you for having highenergy.
And I have had people say, wow,you really walk all over people
.
You don't bring in all theevents.
You just decide and move along.
So who's right?
(22:04):
Well, neither of them.
Right?
They're both data points.
And so the feedback is a giftto me, and I get to decide what
to do with it.
If I just listen to thenegative feedback and say, okay.
Now I have to slow everythingdown all the time and I have to,
like, be really careful.
No.
That's not a it's not adirective.
But it is a data point for meto know when I have a larger
team.
(22:25):
Or when I'm including peoplewho I know I impact in this
certain way, then I get todecide consciously, if I wanna
keep showing up the same way, Ihave always shown up by default,
kind of intense and fastmoving, or do I wanna adjust
that now?
So that's when I say feedback,that's when I mean, a data point
about how you're impactingother people.
Kyla Cofer (22:46):
That's so valuable, especially in that example that
you gave.
I think that's really, reallyhelpful because in that
situation, you also can knowit's situational.
Right?
Like, they're gonna be momentswhen you better make a quick
decision and move forward and dothis.
And you better have the skillsand ability to be able to do
that because things are countingon it.
And the people that arefollowing you as a leader need
(23:06):
and want you to be able to makethat decision quickly.
But now you know that that'syour tendency.
So there are gonna be othertimes when you do need to slow
down and listen to other people.
And if we know that aboutourselves, it gives us the
awareness to be able to makethat shift when we need to.
Carol Fabrizio (23:22):
That's exactly right.
It is situational.
And it's always gonna berelevant to who you're talking
with, who you're working with,how you're showing up, and
that's gonna be differentdepending on the context that
you're in.
So your self awareness isn'tabout changing from being this
kind of person to being thatkind of person.
It's about having a largerrange that you can pull from
(23:43):
depending on the situation.
Kyla Cofer (23:45):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, and thinking justabout that it is just data.
It's just information to helpyou be more aware and to move
forward things.
You know, I'm thinking becauseyou're talking.
The the first thing I'mthinking of is, you know, if
you've got like a viral video,I've never had like a viral
video But you've got likesomething that goes all out to
the social media.
They always say right away,never read the comments.
(24:05):
Yeah.
Because they're gonna be jerksif they're in there.
Right?
Why read the comments fromsomebody random person that you
don't even know who's going totell you all the horrible things
and affirm all the bad thingsyou think about yourself.
And we're gonna get thatnegative feedback, but it's
whose opinion matters, and is itopinion, is it fact, and when
(24:26):
does it matter?
So isn't your boss telling youone thing?
Well, your boss opinion hisopinion matters or her opinion
matters because that's theperson that you're working
towards to help and support.
You know, like, those thingsmatter.
But when it's like some randombloke on
Carol Fabrizio (24:40):
the Internet, it's going to Yes.
Kyla Cofer (24:42):
Care about that opinion, you can't take that to
heart.
Carol Fabrizio (24:45):
Yeah.
That's such a great point.
It's whose opinion matters.
And one thing that I think isso important about feedback is
that, ultimately, your opinionabout you matters more than
anybody else's.
We outsource a lot to our bossor to our boss's boss.
Where somebody who is kind ofsuperior to us to spend an air
quote in the hierarchy as theiropinion about matters more than
(25:06):
our opinion of ourselves.
But asking yourself, keep itbefore, if you know you're gonna
get feedback asking yourself,how do I really feel about the
work that I did?
There's a lot of people can'tanswer that question until they
get some sort of externalvalidation or feedback about
their work.
And so it's, I think,especially important to know how
you feel, give yourselffeedback, before you ask other
(25:27):
people for it.
Kyla Cofer (25:28):
Yes.
You know, actually, this reallyties into what we were talking
about earlier about transitions.
Funnily enough.
They seem like two separatetopics, but they really didn't
because really what we'retalking about is who are you and
what do you want?
And who do you want to be?
And the feedback plays a rolein that.
Like, do you want to be theperson that other people want
you to be?
Or do you just want to be thisperson that you are?
(25:48):
In making those decisions abouttransitioning to something else
in our life, that is ourdecision, and we do outsource
those kinds of things.
And we outsource the opinion ofourselves and the the version
of ourselves that's acceptableor not acceptable.
You know, we outsource thatopinion and it really should be
up to us.
Carol Fabrizio (26:07):
Yeah.
And that's something we're justnot used to focusing on first.
What do my parents think Ishould major in?
What is my boss think I shoulddo next?
What career options do my peersthink are the best for me?
I'm gonna poll all my friendsto see if I should stay in this
relationship or not.
And so starting with your ownintuition and your own heart is
something that we're just notreally used to doing.
Kyla Cofer (26:27):
This isn't something we plan to talk about, but how
how do you start practicing, howdo you encourage people to
start practicing listening totheir own intuition?
Like, if you're gonna talkspecifically about that, what
does that look like to know yourintuition and know what it is
and listen to the right voice.
Carol Fabrizio (26:42):
It's so hard, particularly as this idea of
just the awareness of how you'rereacting to something almost if
you flip a coin and you weregonna like, you're trying to
make a decision between a and band you flip a coin and you're
disappointed at the answer, youcan feel kind of that thinking,
oh, wait a minute.
Like, maybe I am disappointed.
Maybe I really did want thisother thing.
(27:02):
So listening to the clues thatyour body is giving you, is the
first piece.
And I know we talked about thata little bit earlier, but
that's one way to tap into yourintuition.
But then I don't wanna give itso much weight that it sounds
like your gut always knows youjust have to get in touch with
it because it's hard to knowwhat you really want whether
that's in your career or in yourlife or in your personal life
(27:23):
or with your family or your kidsattending that until you try it
.
So if you're wondering, shouldI live in out of Florida, but
you've never spent more than aweek in Florida.
Like, figure out a way toprototype those things.
Because then, you're reallytuning your intuition with
reality.
There's a great researcher andprofessor, Herminia Barra, and I
love that she's got this linefrom a book she wrote twenty
years ago.
(27:44):
We learned by doing enoughbefore.
And I love that because itreminds me that I don't have to
just analyze analyze analyze inmy head or expect my gut to know
the right answer.
I should try things.
I should experiment, and it'sokay to do that.
And then you can kind of tuneyour head in heart into reality
a little bit.
Kyla Cofer (28:03):
Absolutely.
That applies to both thingstransitioning into different
jobs, different cities,different places we live, but
also the feedback that we getand receive for ourselves or
that we give.
As well.
Like, try that out.
Okay?
Someone's giving you twodifferent opinions.
Try it out.
Does that work for you?
If it doesn't work for you,then you gotta let it go or you
have maybe that's really aboutthat other person and not about
you.
The feedback they gave, maybethey were just having a bad day
(28:25):
or they were having a great dayand they were like, pumped about
something, you know.
So you have to ask thosequestions.
Carol Fabrizio (28:31):
Yeah.
It's just on something else too.
The the feedback you weresaying they they might just be
having a bad day.
Right?
It's a vulnerable from bothside.
So you can give somebodyfeedback.
It's actually quite vulnerable.
You're risking a little bit ofthe relationship instead of just
saying, like, great job oryou're doing awesome.
You're risking the relationshipa little bit because you're
willing to say, like, hey, I Ihave something that could have
(28:51):
been better or I have somecritical feedback to give you or
are you open to hearing it?
And that is a vulnerable spaceto be.
So on the receiving end, ofcourse, it's vulnerable because
you might get some criticism.
And and it never feels good.
Everybody wants to hear thatthey did amazing all the time.
And so that's vulnerable byitself.
But if you, for a second, kindof, put yourself in the other
person's shoes and think aboutmaybe why they're giving that
(29:13):
feedback or how hard it was forthem to share it with you, you
recognize that it's prettyvulnerable on both sides.
And so that helps you be just alittle bit less defensive in
the face of what is otherwisehard to do that.
Kyla Cofer (29:25):
Absolutely.
And to remember that as leaderswere the vision carriers, So
we're the ones that are supposedto be having that vision of
where we wanna go, where we'rebringing other people.
And so feedback is really justa part of getting us closer to
that vision.
And so, like you said, they'rejust data points to to get us
closer to that.
So, yes, we're risking some ofthat relationship, and we can do
(29:45):
that with dignity, respect,compassion, grace, all of these
positive words.
When we can say, I'm coming tothis to align us closer to our
goal, and I'm finding differentways that we can do that
together.
Carol Fabrizio (29:59):
Yeah.
To clarify this point too, itfeels like it's risking the
relationship.
But over time, it strengthens.
So if if you work with somebodyto every time you do anything,
it's like, oh, man, it's a greatjob.
Right?
That's the only feedback youever get from that person.
Well, yeah, sure they might beyour cheerleader, but compare
that to somebody who is willingto say, like, hey, that wasn't
(30:21):
really a good job.
Here are some ways that couldbe better.
Or, hey, I really didn't thinkthat you were at your best this
morning, and here are somethings I noticed.
And over time, you see therange of feedback that they will
give you and how you'reimproving because of it.
Years down the road, you cansee that your relationship with
the person who is willing to goon that journey with you and
meet you at your best and whenyou're not doing your best
(30:44):
actually is probably stronger.
And when they give you goodfeedback, you probably trust it
a lot more than the person whoalways gives you positive
feedback.
So you can kinda see that it'slike, It actually strengthens
the relationship over time.
When you do it with as you weresaying, with grace and
compassion and dignity becausesometimes when we talk about
tough feedback.
People use as an excuse to saymean things or well, I'm just
(31:08):
gonna be honest with you.
Right?
And then they say somethingthat's hurtful.
But feedback when doneskillfully has to be in service
of the person hearing it, andthe larger organization or team.
Kyla Cofer (31:19):
Knows to say, you know, sometimes when you maybe
have done it poorly -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (31:23):
--
Kyla Cofer (31:23):
and communicate it poorly, like being willing to go
to that person and go, man,Like, I'm trying here.
We're all learning.
Like, let's just keep going.
Let's just not give up towardsthis goal here.
Carol Fabrizio (31:32):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that's a big part of it.
And it's okay to not do itperfectly all the time.
So, like, hey, I tried and thatwasn't the best way I could
have done that.
I'm gonna try again, but it isrep and sometimes we're not
willing to practice it to getgood at it.
Kyla Cofer (31:45):
Carol, thinking about all this stuff that we
talked about today, transitions,feedback, intuition, all of it,
could you sum that up and maybeone piece of advice for our
listeners?
Like, what would be, like, yourbiggest piece of advice that
you wanna offer today?
Carol Fabrizio (31:56):
On the feedback side since we're just wrapping
that up, I would say feedback isa data point, not a fact.
Okay?
So start with that.
When you feel yourself gettingdefensive, just respond with.
Thank you.
I appreciate your feedback.
I'm gonna think about that fora while before I respond because
we need to take and feed backin when we're not triggered by
it, and then we can beresponsive to it.
(32:18):
It is a gift, so treat it likethat.
So that first part is just datapoint.
The second is just a thank you.
And the third is, remember thatit's a gift and it really is.
And I don't say that to becheesy but to think about it
that way because the people whoare giving it to you are helping
you get more data on how todiscover.
And then on transition, if Icould sum that piece up, I would
(32:41):
say, if you were questioning,if you were wondering what else
you want to do with your life,either that's personally at work
.
You're not doing it wrong.
In fact, you're doing it right.
I think the wrong way you cando it is to get on the treadmill
of life and never question ifwe want something different or
more or something outside ofwhat we thought we wanted twenty
(33:01):
years ago.
So if you're having thosemoments where you're unsure and
you're looking at differentoptions and you feel like
something's off, it's not,you're just awake in your own
life, and that is what you want.
And so even though it feelsuncomfortable, stick with it,
there are ways to figure outwhat's next.
Don't take it too seriously.
Kyla Cofer (33:19):
Well, great advice, Carol.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for this greatconversation.
This has been really valuableand hopeful, and I'm already
like thinking about all thesethings I'm gonna do differently.
So I really appreciate Thankyou so much for joining me.
It's such a pleasure to haveyou.
Carol Fabrizio (33:31):
Thanks, Kyla.
It's been great to talk withyou.
Kyla Cofer (33:36):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney, and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interview is over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed more casual conversation
(33:59):
.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions.
What does integrity mean tothem?
And what does balance look liketo them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/leadership school And forsix dollars and fifty cents a
(34:21):
month, you can support thispodcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and Honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
(34:42):
practically do that?
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/leadership school, where I'masking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions,you'll need some bonus content
over there.
So be sure to go check it out.
Thanks so much for yoursupport, and thanks for so much
for subscribing, listening, andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot, andI'm so honored to show up here
(35:04):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, Go check out kylac ofer
.
com/ free stuff.
If you are questioning, if you are
wondering what else you want todo with your life, either that's
personally a word you're notdoing it wrong.
In fact, you're doing it right.
I think the wrong way you cando it is to get on the treadmill
of life and never question ifwe want something different or
more something outside of whatwe thought we wanted twenty
years ago.
Kyla Cofer (00:27):
Welcome to the Leadership School podcast.
I'm your host, leadership andself care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal, teach you how to bean extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:53):
I am introducing you today toCarol Fabrizio.
She is a former employer,turned executive coach.
She talks today abouttransitions, how to navigate
transitions, but also how tonavigate feedback.
And surprisingly enough, thosetwo things actually ended up
tying together in ourconversation.
And if you're not following usyet on Patreon, this is a really
(01:14):
good episode to do so becauseafter our interview, we take a
post interview conversation.
We put that whole thing onPatreon where I ask all my
guests, what does integrity meanto you?
What does balance look like toyou?
And all the answers vary quitea bit so it's really fun
conversation.
But then we just talk and wechat just having normal
discussion.
Today, we even talked aboutreligion.
(01:34):
So this is a great chance tojump in.
And sponsor us on Patreon.
Help this episode keep goingand supporting other growing
leaders like yourself.
Thanks so much for listening.
Enjoy this conversation withCarol Fabrizio.
Carol, I really appreciate you,joining me today.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation.
We're gonna be talking a littlebit about feedback and
transitions.
And all of that as well as yourstory.
(01:55):
So why don't you just kick usoff?
Thanks for being here, and whydon't you help help us get
started by sharing a little bitabout your story.
What brings you here?
Carol Fabrizio (02:01):
Yeah.
Thanks, Kyla.
I appreciate you having me on.
So we are going to talk abouttransitions today, and I've made
a lot of them personally.
I am an executive coach andleadership consultant now, but
that's not how I started.
I actually started as a lawyerin a big law firm out in LA and
then I moved in house, and thenI thought I'd found the thing I
wanted to do forever.
(02:22):
But instead of doing thatforever, I became chief of staff
to a CEO who is an amazingleader, and I got really
passionate about leadershipgoing on.
Kyla Cofer (02:31):
Let me interrupt you .
Was that still in law, thatposition?
Was it still in the field oflaw?
Carol Fabrizio (02:36):
No.
As an in house counsel, I wasstill working as a lawyer, but
just for the company that Iworked for, instead of for many
clients.
And then the chief of staffrole is, of course, variable
across anything that the CEO isdoing.
So, totally blew up my career alittle bit by doing that.
And then fell in love withleadership development.
And so I actually was the headof communications for that
(02:57):
company and then chiefcommunications officer for a
course organization beforedeciding to move to executive
coaching and leadershipconsulting full time.
That's how I got to where I amtoday.
Kyla Cofer (03:08):
What led you to doing the executive and
leadership coaching?
Like, I mean, that was atransition, but, like, what Why
is it that propelled you intothat?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The why.
Carol Fabrizio (03:16):
So of all of those transitions, I never felt
like I'm unhappy in my role, andI have to change something to
get to what it was always anexpansion of my own kind of
curiosity.
Like, oh, what if I did that,sir?
What if I tried to do thisother And so part of what
happened when I was the chief ofstaff role is that there was
always meant to be a rotationalrole.
(03:36):
And so I knew that I was gonnago lead communications after
this role.
But I didn't have anybackground in communication.
So I decided to get my coachingcertification just to get some
additional skills to figure outcan I be a better leader when I
don't have all these?
Because as a lawyer, you kindof have some sick matter
expertise, you're supposed toyou're supposed to be able to
find the answers.
(03:56):
And when you're leading peoplethat are experts in something
you're not an expert in, youneed more of those skills.
So that that was one piece.
And then the second piece was Iwas in a company that really
valued leadership development.
So the idea that you could movein the agile and try your
leadership in different areasand different functions, is
something that was kind ofingrained in the culture.
(04:17):
And so that's one of thereasons that I just continued my
passion for it is because itwas part of the water I was
putting in.
Kyla Cofer (04:25):
That makes sense.
So you talk a lot abouttransitions.
So tell me about thesetransitions.
You've transitioned a lot fromattorney to chief of staff to
executive leadership coachingand all of these other things in
between to parent, all of thisstuff.
So how have you navigatedpersonally some of those
transitions.
Because transitions is hard,especially, like, if you've had
to move cities, that can bereally challenging in between
(04:46):
all that and you've got to beflexible and you got culture
shock with the changes inenvironments.
So talk about that a little bitabout how you personally
navigated that.
Carol Fabrizio (04:55):
Yeah.
I think part of the reason it'sso hard is because whenever we
transition some big part of ourlife, particularly in our career
or when we move from beingsingle to being married or not
having kids to being a parent.
All of those things require usto kind of restate and question
our identity.
We write these stories aboutour lives as we move through
(05:15):
them.
And then when these big piecesof our identity change, all of a
sudden, we are changing ourstory.
We're changing our narrative.
That is exciting in some waybecause you're probably moving
towards something that youreally want.
But there's also some grief inthere.
Right?
Because you're losing part ofwho you were.
And so those transitions, Ithink, part of the magic in them
(05:35):
is holding both of those at thesame time.
It's consciously deciding onwilling to let go of this to say
I wanna go after this.
And so just in that in thatfirst piece.
I was at a big law firm thatyou work really hard.
They pay really well.
And when I first got there, Ithought, oh, I'm gonna be a
partner one day.
But after, you know, six monthsa year, I knew that that's
(05:57):
really not the lifestyle Iwanted.
I was gonna look for somethingelse.
And even though I didn't knowit that was, I knew that there
was something more aligned withwho I wanted to be.
And that means letting go ofthat idea that I'm gonna be this
high powered law partner at alaw firm.
And so every time you gothrough one of those
transitions, it requiresacknowledging the loss and
figuring out the future.
(06:18):
And that takes time.
And so dealing with theuncertainty that discomfort that
kind of break in between thepast and the future that is a
skill by itself to just sitthere?
Kyla Cofer (06:30):
It really is.
I'm so glad you mentioned thegrief because I thought through
a lot of my transitions andthat's been a big part of them
is acknowledging that that it'sactually a type of greeting
because you are experiencingsome sort of loss.
Let me ask you this, how longhad you wanted to be an attorney
and a big time attorney?
Like, how long had you had thatdream?
Carol Fabrizio (06:47):
Good question.
It actually I was not one ofthose kids who was like, oh, I
have to do this.
I'm gonna be a lawyer.
So in fact, everybody in myfamily is in medicine somewhere
in nursing a doctor or somethinglike that.
So I was already kind of in theblack sheep for going into law.
I mean, he spent a lot of timeand effort on getting through
law school.
I went to a private universityfor law school.
So I had plenty of law schooldebt, plenty of reasons to
(07:09):
continue down that road.
That kind of some college, thatkind of really caught me.
But I also knew ultimatelythose were not the right reasons
to stay in it.
So it wasn't luckily, I Iwasn't too attached to that
being who I was fifty forever.
Kyla Cofer (07:22):
That's good that you weren't too attached to it
because that moving on, it makesthat moving on that transition
easier.
And when you are reallyattached to something, it it is
a big loss because like yousaid, you you're losing that
financial investment, that timeinvestment.
But what about not seeing it asa loss?
Like, you're seeing it and youdid make investments in
yourself, and that investmentled you to the next step
Carol Fabrizio (07:41):
-- Yeah.
--
Kyla Cofer (07:42):
and and push you to the next place.
So that next place for you wasthis chief of staff job -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (07:46):
--
Kyla Cofer (07:46):
and moving on.
So what are some other thingsthat have helped you through
some of those transitions?
Accepting, acknowledging thatgrief, and working through that
in a grief.
And that takes time.
It's not like a well, I'm sadtoday.
That's why I'm gonna know myshoes that I'll be over it.
You know?
Carol Fabrizio (07:59):
Yeah.
So a couple of things.
One is, it's not easy to sit inthat unsure space.
Right?
So Now looking back, it's easyto say, oh, I have this
transition.
It wasn't so great.
I ended up first just movingfrom a law firm lawyer to an in
house counsel position.
But I will tell you thattransition by itself, I think I
applied to that in house role inOctober, and I didn't get the
(08:21):
job until June.
And that was one of the longestnine months of my life because
I didn't think I got the job.
And so then I was questioningeverything.
Do I really wanna be a lawyer?
Do I wanna go to FBI.
Do I want to put everything andbe a personal trainer?
I have all of these ideas aboutwhat could be possible.
And in that uncertainty it's somuch questioning.
It's guilt.
(08:42):
Did I do the wrong thing?
It's excitement.
What could be possible?
And so all of these feelingscome up.
And now, it sounds great tolook back and say, oh, yeah.
That's part of the process.
But when you're in it, itdoesn't feel like that.
It feels awful.
And so I think when thosethings come up now that I see
them and I see this as a pattern.
And I see it as a pattern withmy clients.
Right?
They're worried because theyfeel grateful.
(09:02):
Maybe that means I didsomething wrong in changing
roles.
Or they're worried that thenext decision has to be the
exact right one.
If they're going to changecareers, then the next one
better be their careers solemate of sorts.
Right?
And so in addition toacknowledging all the fields,
I'd say the other part that'sreally important is just holding
it a little less tightly.
(09:22):
And what I do by that is beinga little bit playful, a little
bit exploratory, and a littlebit willing to just try things
out.
There's a metaphor I like touse with clients sometimes that
if you took your kids, Kaila,and you wanted to figure out
what sports they wanted to playin high school, which is many
years away.
You wouldn't say, okay, let'sgo look on paper and see all the
(09:44):
different sports that there are.
And then we will pick from thislist of sports, the one you're
gonna do for the rest of yourlife.
So that's kinda how we choose amajor and then a job and then a
career.
Right?
As we just guess kind of at thebeginning of what we sort of
like and then we stick with it.
So if if you were gonna getyour kids to do something like
that, you would have them go tryit out, go go play, soccer for
(10:07):
a couple of weeks.
Go play basketball.
See if you like things.
That's the kind of exploratorymindset that I think we have to
have around these bigtransitions, is not making it so
final whenever we want toexplore something.
Kyla Cofer (10:22):
Part of that is just like we are allowing ourselves
to really be free -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (10:27):
--
Kyla Cofer (10:27):
right, allowing ourselves to have the freedom to
be who we are and to explorethat and figure that out because
we'll be a hundred and yearsold and still trying to be like,
well, who am I?
You know, we we're always justfiguring things out about
ourselves and getting to knowourselves a little bit too.
So is that, like, exploringlife?
And then -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (10:44):
--
Kyla Cofer (10:44):
and what do you say to people who say, yeah, but
you've got to commit tosomething?
Carol Fabrizio (10:48):
Yeah.
Sure.
And to some degree, you do.
Right?
In the sense that if you don'tcommit to anything, you won't
actually know if it fits you ornot.
It'd be easy to just keeptrying things out, but almost
everybody I work with is notafraid of commitment.
So just aren't a lot of theleaders I see.
If anything, they're too afraidto quit.
Quit a job, quit a career, quita narrative, quit an identity.
(11:09):
And so you can always go backto something.
If you're like, actually,that's more who I was aligned
and that's more who I wanna bein the future.
Then you can go back to that.
I can always decide I wanna bea lawyer again.
And, yeah, I would have lostsome years of experience and on,
but I gave lots of years ofexperience in these other areas.
So you're not losing somethingforever if you try something
(11:29):
else on.
And so that's what I thinkgiving ourselves the permission
to do that and allow ourselvesto have that is more of what
people need the courage to do.
This this notion of people liketrying things for a couple
months as they're moving on andtrying things for a couple
months.
I don't see a lot of that.
And I know it's a little bit ofa trouble search generation,
but to be honest, don't workwith anybody and hadn't seen a
(11:52):
lot of that in my own work.
Kyla Cofer (11:54):
Well, I really appreciate it.
You said the word couragebecause we're gonna be talking
about I feel like courage isgonna be kind of a theme over
the summer here at theleadership school because some
of it is that courage is thatcourage defining who you are to
lead well.
To really be yourself and to dothings that are hard or to stay
when it's hard or to leave whenit's hard and being willing to
explore that a little bit, butalso giving yourself permission
(12:15):
to do things that are right foryou.
And because at the end of theday, our life is what we make it
.
And our our life is what we'vethe decisions that we've made
for ourselves And at the end ofthe day, it doesn't matter what
our parents thought of us.
It's what we thought.
And it's how we accepted andloved our life or didn't love
our life.
You know?
And if you're in a place whereyou're just completely miserable
(12:35):
and it's getting worse andworse and worse, then why are
you choosing to stay in a placethat's creating that misery
because that's not what life isabout.
So what you're talking about isunderstanding, like, those deep
desires that we have andaccepting them to be able to
move us forward to the nextthing in our life, whatever that
is, and to be able to make thattransition with grace.
So are there some, like, tipsthat you have in how to really
(12:57):
make those transitions?
Well, as you said, kind ofaccepting the grief,
acknowledging the grief, andbeing excited about it moving
you forward.
What else would you say tosomeone who's like in the middle
of the transition?
Carol Fabrizio (13:06):
Why is it?
Just going backing up one spacein the transition is that
decision.
That space of should I make achange, what kind of a change
should I make?
And I would say here thedisconnect I see with a lot of
folks is when their head issaying one thing and their
intuition, their gut is sayinganother thing.
Like, they're trying to talkthemselves into stay or they're
trying to talk themselves intoleaving.
(13:26):
But because they think it's onpaper the right thing to do, of
that deeper inner knowing andsaying something different.
Their gut keeps nudging themand something keeps bubbling up
and saying, this isn't right.
But their brain is saying oh,wait a minute, like, you're
making good money here or youhave, you know, enough time to
do a client fee or you spentyears and years studying for
that, shouldn't you do it?
(13:47):
And so the first I would say isto try to quiet your analytical
mind for a minute.
And listen to your heart andyour intuition.
And, just seeing Justin, whatis the disconnect between those
three, your head, your heart,and your gut?
And try to just let that bethere for a minute because
something is there.
And if we can acknowledge that,then I think there's that opens
(14:08):
up the door to a lot ofquestioning that we don't
otherwise do.
Because most of us stay in ourheads all the time.
And so just acknowledging thatthere's a disconnect and asking
those questions to be a hugestep forward.
Kyla Cofer (14:19):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's what we do incoaching.
Right?
So we're like, where are you?
What's going on with you now?
Where is it that you wanna go?
And, like, let's try and closethat gap.
And sometimes people get reallyparalyzed because they're like,
but I don't know where I wantto go.
I don't know.
But I think we do know.
And sometimes it's that whatyou said, that's that decision.
It's hard to get that outbecause sometimes we're afraid,
(14:40):
because we have to work throughthose questions of what will I
be losing if I make this choiceor if I do decide to do
something completely different,you know.
And sometimes we would hit inthose deep parts of ourselves,
like those like, the deepestdesires or deepest dreams
because we didn't feel like theywere available to us.
Carol Fabrizio (14:58):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so just acknowledging thatthose are there.
Right, and taking them up andeven saying, even if you're not
sure exactly what it is that youwant or want to do or want next
in your life, if you canpicture a decision and just kind
of thematically tune in, like,how does your body react?
Do you feel a sense ofcontraction if you think about
this one choice of staying inyour current position or staying
(15:20):
in your current company orwhenever the choice is for you,
or does it feel like a relief,like an opening like, an
expansion of some sort.
Because our our body does havethat intuitive sense of those
feelings.
And so it's not the samedecision for everybody right?
And so sometimes that reliefcan come from saying, you know
what, actually, I'm really goodhere.
I'm gonna keep doing this.
And sometimes that relief comesfrom saying, I don't know what
(15:42):
it is, but I know it's not that.
And so allowing yourself tojust see if your brain is
running on a hamster wheel ofshould I do this?
Should I not?
Just see how your body reacts?
Because sometimes, there's kindof hidden wisdom in how we
react.
And it's almost crazy hearingmyself talk like this because
ten years ago, I was all in myhead.
And so just realizing that ourheart and our intuition our gut
(16:05):
give us so much wisdom.
It's something that's beenreally important for me in my
transition.
Kyla Cofer (16:11):
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(16:35):
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(16:57):
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.
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(17:19):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Like, being able to trust thatintuition and finding a way to
pull that out of us.
You know, I asked somebodyrecently, she was saying, but I
don't really know what I want.
And so then I said, okay.
Well, let's think about like ayear from now.
And sometimes it's even go tofive years from now to think
about that far ahead becauseit's not here.
And so it does it.
(17:39):
Our brains can handle that.
If we say five years, whatwould your dream life look like
in five years?
It does not take us long toanswer that question.
It really doesn't.
And then we go, wait a second.
In five years, I was dreamingfive years from now to have
these things.
Then you realize, okay, wait,I'm not even on that path.
If that's my dream, like, howdo I put myself on that path?
Carol Fabrizio (18:03):
There's one other thing that is almost the
opposite of that that I like todo too because this is kind of
my bias, is sometimes speakingtoo far ahead makes it feel to
me like, oh, well, what if Imake one degree wrong on the
path and then I don't get there?
And so I like to start withinstead of thinking five hundred
steps ahead, just thinking likeone, two, three, five, ten
(18:24):
steps right now.
You have maybe these four orfive options to you.
And let's see which one feelsthe most in tune and aligned
with your values, with the lifeyou want right now with the way
you wanna change your life.
If you want more x, y, and z,then which one of these five
choices feels like it's a littlebit closer to that.
(18:44):
And so we're talking about thefirst couple steps instead of
the last couple steps, which cansometimes seem a little bit
more accessible to people.
Kyla Cofer (18:51):
Absolutely.
I always love the gym analogiesbecause it's just something
that people understand, like,you wanna lose fifty pounds or
you wanna be the buffest personin the gym?
Well, like, you go the firstday for five minutes.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
The first step is to get a gymmembership or whatever that
first step is.
It's like, let's just take thesmall things because that's
manageable.
You know, how do you eat anelephant, one bite at a time and
(19:12):
it's just little things hereand there.
So let's transition and talk alittle bit because we wanted to
get to talking about somefeedback today.
So we wanted to talkspecifically about what it looks
like to give and receivefeedback because you've had to
do a lot of this.
As chief of staff.
So tell us a little bit aboutlike what the word feedback
means for you.
Carol Fabrizio (19:31):
Here's what I thought feedback was when I
started my chief of staffposition.
I thought it was the truthabout how you're doing.
Right?
I thought it's somebody tellingyou what is true about your
performance in some way.
And what's so awful about thatparticular description is that
we fear it.
And especially if you're a highachiever of some sort or you've
(19:54):
dealt with perfectionism in anysort of way feedback, which we
usually need constructivefeedback or some kind of
criticism.
Is something you don't reallywant it and you say you want it,
but you don't really want itbecause that means you didn't do
perfectly.
And so I would like a feedbackthat's more like hey, could you
change the font on this and lesson, hey, you have to rethink
this entire strategy becausethis isn't brilliant.
(20:16):
And so I really didn't want it.
And when I started the chief ofstaff position, what I found
out very quickly was that I wasgonna get a lot of feedback
every day.
And because that was just therelationship that I had with the
CEO, and it wasn't because I'vebeen doing terribly.
But because he actually reallycared about my development and
he valued my development and ourrelationship and how well we
(20:39):
were gonna do together more thanthe comfort I'm not giving
somebody feedback.
So that is where I learned toget it and get really
comfortable with it with reps.
Because I got feedback everyday and I gave feedback every
day, upward feedback to the CEOabout how he was doing.
He'd never let me off the hookwith that.
He always asked for my feedback.
(20:59):
And so I got really, reallycomfortable with it.
And now when I think of what isfeedback, I think it's a data
point, not a directive.
And so that is something for methat has become really
important.
It's not the truth in the senseof everybody feels this way
about something you've done.
It is a data point.
It's one person.
(21:19):
Maybe a couple of more peopleare responding.
It's their opinion about somepiece of work that you've done
or some way that you've shown up.
And so you can just take thatdata point and decide what to do
with it.
It's not a directive in thesense of I think your too this,
so you have to change.
And I'll share an example.
As a leader, I can be a littlebit tense I can be very decisive
(21:43):
.
I can move very quickly.
Some people in my game thinkthat's awesome.
Some people have said, yes.
I love that.
We don't get caught inbottlenecks.
We move quickly.
Thank you for being so decisive.
Thank you for having highenergy.
And I have had people say, wow,you really walk all over people
.
You don't bring in all theevents.
You just decide and move along.
So who's right?
(22:04):
Well, neither of them.
Right?
They're both data points.
And so the feedback is a giftto me, and I get to decide what
to do with it.
If I just listen to thenegative feedback and say, okay.
Now I have to slow everythingdown all the time and I have to,
like, be really careful.
No.
That's not a it's not adirective.
But it is a data point for meto know when I have a larger
team.
(22:25):
Or when I'm including peoplewho I know I impact in this
certain way, then I get todecide consciously, if I wanna
keep showing up the same way, Ihave always shown up by default,
kind of intense and fastmoving, or do I wanna adjust
that now?
So that's when I say feedback,that's when I mean, a data point
about how you're impactingother people.
Kyla Cofer (22:46):
That's so valuable, especially in that example that
you gave.
I think that's really, reallyhelpful because in that
situation, you also can knowit's situational.
Right?
Like, they're gonna be momentswhen you better make a quick
decision and move forward and dothis.
And you better have the skillsand ability to be able to do
that because things are countingon it.
And the people that arefollowing you as a leader need
(23:06):
and want you to be able to makethat decision quickly.
But now you know that that'syour tendency.
So there are gonna be othertimes when you do need to slow
down and listen to other people.
And if we know that aboutourselves, it gives us the
awareness to be able to makethat shift when we need to.
Carol Fabrizio (23:22):
That's exactly right.
It is situational.
And it's always gonna berelevant to who you're talking
with, who you're working with,how you're showing up, and
that's gonna be differentdepending on the context that
you're in.
So your self awareness isn'tabout changing from being this
kind of person to being thatkind of person.
It's about having a largerrange that you can pull from
(23:43):
depending on the situation.
Kyla Cofer (23:45):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, and thinking justabout that it is just data.
It's just information to helpyou be more aware and to move
forward things.
You know, I'm thinking becauseyou're talking.
The the first thing I'mthinking of is, you know, if
you've got like a viral video,I've never had like a viral
video But you've got likesomething that goes all out to
the social media.
They always say right away,never read the comments.
(24:05):
Yeah.
Because they're gonna be jerksif they're in there.
Right?
Why read the comments fromsomebody random person that you
don't even know who's going totell you all the horrible things
and affirm all the bad thingsyou think about yourself.
And we're gonna get thatnegative feedback, but it's
whose opinion matters, and is itopinion, is it fact, and when
(24:26):
does it matter?
So isn't your boss telling youone thing?
Well, your boss opinion hisopinion matters or her opinion
matters because that's theperson that you're working
towards to help and support.
You know, like, those thingsmatter.
But when it's like some randombloke on
Carol Fabrizio (24:40):
the Internet, it's going to Yes.
Kyla Cofer (24:42):
Care about that opinion, you can't take that to
heart.
Carol Fabrizio (24:45):
Yeah.
That's such a great point.
It's whose opinion matters.
And one thing that I think isso important about feedback is
that, ultimately, your opinionabout you matters more than
anybody else's.
We outsource a lot to our bossor to our boss's boss.
Where somebody who is kind ofsuperior to us to spend an air
quote in the hierarchy as theiropinion about matters more than
(25:06):
our opinion of ourselves.
But asking yourself, keep itbefore, if you know you're gonna
get feedback asking yourself,how do I really feel about the
work that I did?
There's a lot of people can'tanswer that question until they
get some sort of externalvalidation or feedback about
their work.
And so it's, I think,especially important to know how
you feel, give yourselffeedback, before you ask other
(25:27):
people for it.
Kyla Cofer (25:28):
Yes.
You know, actually, this reallyties into what we were talking
about earlier about transitions.
Funnily enough.
They seem like two separatetopics, but they really didn't
because really what we'retalking about is who are you and
what do you want?
And who do you want to be?
And the feedback plays a rolein that.
Like, do you want to be theperson that other people want
you to be?
Or do you just want to be thisperson that you are?
(25:48):
In making those decisions abouttransitioning to something else
in our life, that is ourdecision, and we do outsource
those kinds of things.
And we outsource the opinion ofourselves and the the version
of ourselves that's acceptableor not acceptable.
You know, we outsource thatopinion and it really should be
up to us.
Carol Fabrizio (26:07):
Yeah.
And that's something we're justnot used to focusing on first.
What do my parents think Ishould major in?
What is my boss think I shoulddo next?
What career options do my peersthink are the best for me?
I'm gonna poll all my friendsto see if I should stay in this
relationship or not.
And so starting with your ownintuition and your own heart is
something that we're just notreally used to doing.
Kyla Cofer (26:27):
This isn't something we plan to talk about, but how
how do you start practicing, howdo you encourage people to
start practicing listening totheir own intuition?
Like, if you're gonna talkspecifically about that, what
does that look like to know yourintuition and know what it is
and listen to the right voice.
Carol Fabrizio (26:42):
It's so hard, particularly as this idea of
just the awareness of how you'rereacting to something almost if
you flip a coin and you weregonna like, you're trying to
make a decision between a and band you flip a coin and you're
disappointed at the answer, youcan feel kind of that thinking,
oh, wait a minute.
Like, maybe I am disappointed.
Maybe I really did want thisother thing.
(27:02):
So listening to the clues thatyour body is giving you, is the
first piece.
And I know we talked about thata little bit earlier, but
that's one way to tap into yourintuition.
But then I don't wanna give itso much weight that it sounds
like your gut always knows youjust have to get in touch with
it because it's hard to knowwhat you really want whether
that's in your career or in yourlife or in your personal life
(27:23):
or with your family or your kidsattending that until you try it
.
So if you're wondering, shouldI live in out of Florida, but
you've never spent more than aweek in Florida.
Like, figure out a way toprototype those things.
Because then, you're reallytuning your intuition with
reality.
There's a great researcher andprofessor, Herminia Barra, and I
love that she's got this linefrom a book she wrote twenty
years ago.
(27:44):
We learned by doing enoughbefore.
And I love that because itreminds me that I don't have to
just analyze analyze analyze inmy head or expect my gut to know
the right answer.
I should try things.
I should experiment, and it'sokay to do that.
And then you can kind of tuneyour head in heart into reality
a little bit.
Kyla Cofer (28:03):
Absolutely.
That applies to both thingstransitioning into different
jobs, different cities,different places we live, but
also the feedback that we getand receive for ourselves or
that we give.
As well.
Like, try that out.
Okay?
Someone's giving you twodifferent opinions.
Try it out.
Does that work for you?
If it doesn't work for you,then you gotta let it go or you
have maybe that's really aboutthat other person and not about
you.
The feedback they gave, maybethey were just having a bad day
(28:25):
or they were having a great dayand they were like, pumped about
something, you know.
So you have to ask thosequestions.
Carol Fabrizio (28:31):
Yeah.
It's just on something else too.
The the feedback you weresaying they they might just be
having a bad day.
Right?
It's a vulnerable from bothside.
So you can give somebodyfeedback.
It's actually quite vulnerable.
You're risking a little bit ofthe relationship instead of just
saying, like, great job oryou're doing awesome.
You're risking the relationshipa little bit because you're
willing to say, like, hey, I Ihave something that could have
(28:51):
been better or I have somecritical feedback to give you or
are you open to hearing it?
And that is a vulnerable spaceto be.
So on the receiving end, ofcourse, it's vulnerable because
you might get some criticism.
And and it never feels good.
Everybody wants to hear thatthey did amazing all the time.
And so that's vulnerable byitself.
But if you, for a second, kindof, put yourself in the other
person's shoes and think aboutmaybe why they're giving that
(29:13):
feedback or how hard it was forthem to share it with you, you
recognize that it's prettyvulnerable on both sides.
And so that helps you be just alittle bit less defensive in
the face of what is otherwisehard to do that.
Kyla Cofer (29:25):
Absolutely.
And to remember that as leaderswere the vision carriers, So
we're the ones that are supposedto be having that vision of
where we wanna go, where we'rebringing other people.
And so feedback is really justa part of getting us closer to
that vision.
And so, like you said, they'rejust data points to to get us
closer to that.
So, yes, we're risking some ofthat relationship, and we can do
(29:45):
that with dignity, respect,compassion, grace, all of these
positive words.
When we can say, I'm coming tothis to align us closer to our
goal, and I'm finding differentways that we can do that
together.
Carol Fabrizio (29:59):
Yeah.
To clarify this point too, itfeels like it's risking the
relationship.
But over time, it strengthens.
So if if you work with somebodyto every time you do anything,
it's like, oh, man, it's a greatjob.
Right?
That's the only feedback youever get from that person.
Well, yeah, sure they might beyour cheerleader, but compare
that to somebody who is willingto say, like, hey, that wasn't
(30:21):
really a good job.
Here are some ways that couldbe better.
Or, hey, I really didn't thinkthat you were at your best this
morning, and here are somethings I noticed.
And over time, you see therange of feedback that they will
give you and how you'reimproving because of it.
Years down the road, you cansee that your relationship with
the person who is willing to goon that journey with you and
meet you at your best and whenyou're not doing your best
(30:44):
actually is probably stronger.
And when they give you goodfeedback, you probably trust it
a lot more than the person whoalways gives you positive
feedback.
So you can kinda see that it'slike, It actually strengthens
the relationship over time.
When you do it with as you weresaying, with grace and
compassion and dignity becausesometimes when we talk about
tough feedback.
People use as an excuse to saymean things or well, I'm just
(31:08):
gonna be honest with you.
Right?
And then they say somethingthat's hurtful.
But feedback when doneskillfully has to be in service
of the person hearing it, andthe larger organization or team.
Kyla Cofer (31:19):
Knows to say, you know, sometimes when you maybe
have done it poorly -- Yeah.
Carol Fabrizio (31:23):
--
Kyla Cofer (31:23):
and communicate it poorly, like being willing to go
to that person and go, man,Like, I'm trying here.
We're all learning.
Like, let's just keep going.
Let's just not give up towardsthis goal here.
Carol Fabrizio (31:32):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that's a big part of it.
And it's okay to not do itperfectly all the time.
So, like, hey, I tried and thatwasn't the best way I could
have done that.
I'm gonna try again, but it isrep and sometimes we're not
willing to practice it to getgood at it.
Kyla Cofer (31:45):
Carol, thinking about all this stuff that we
talked about today, transitions,feedback, intuition, all of it,
could you sum that up and maybeone piece of advice for our
listeners?
Like, what would be, like, yourbiggest piece of advice that
you wanna offer today?
Carol Fabrizio (31:56):
On the feedback side since we're just wrapping
that up, I would say feedback isa data point, not a fact.
Okay?
So start with that.
When you feel yourself gettingdefensive, just respond with.
Thank you.
I appreciate your feedback.
I'm gonna think about that fora while before I respond because
we need to take and feed backin when we're not triggered by
it, and then we can beresponsive to it.
(32:18):
It is a gift, so treat it likethat.
So that first part is just datapoint.
The second is just a thank you.
And the third is, remember thatit's a gift and it really is.
And I don't say that to becheesy but to think about it
that way because the people whoare giving it to you are helping
you get more data on how todiscover.
And then on transition, if Icould sum that piece up, I would
(32:41):
say, if you were questioning,if you were wondering what else
you want to do with your life,either that's personally at work
.
You're not doing it wrong.
In fact, you're doing it right.
I think the wrong way you cando it is to get on the treadmill
of life and never question ifwe want something different or
more or something outside ofwhat we thought we wanted twenty
(33:01):
years ago.
So if you're having thosemoments where you're unsure and
you're looking at differentoptions and you feel like
something's off, it's not,you're just awake in your own
life, and that is what you want.
And so even though it feelsuncomfortable, stick with it,
there are ways to figure outwhat's next.
Don't take it too seriously.
Kyla Cofer (33:19):
Well, great advice, Carol.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for this greatconversation.
This has been really valuableand hopeful, and I'm already
like thinking about all thesethings I'm gonna do differently.
So I really appreciate Thankyou so much for joining me.
It's such a pleasure to haveyou.
Carol Fabrizio (33:31):
Thanks, Kyla.
It's been great to talk withyou.
Kyla Cofer (33:36):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney, and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interview is over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed more casual conversation
(33:59):
.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions.
What does integrity mean tothem?
And what does balance look liketo them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/leadership school And forsix dollars and fifty cents a
(34:21):
month, you can support thispodcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and Honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
(34:42):
practically do that?
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/leadership school, where I'masking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions,you'll need some bonus content
over there.
So be sure to go check it out.
Thanks so much for yoursupport, and thanks for so much
for subscribing, listening, andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot, andI'm so honored to show up here
(35:04):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, Go check out kylac ofer
.
com/ free stuff.
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