August 3, 2023 • 37 mins
Ever wondered if it is possible to transform a disheartened team into a high-performing, harmonious unit? Join us as we navigate a remarkable journey with Wayne Beringer, the mastermind behind an astounding change at Boeing, where he raised employee satisfaction from a mere 52% to an impressive 90% in just five years. Wayne, with his diverse background in fields like marketing and PR, offers a holistic view on leadership that goes beyond mere job roles.
Wayne's story draws a parallel between his awe-inspiring experience of scaling Mount Kilimanjaro and his corporate journey of leading a large team at Boeing to its zenith. The same principles he used to confront and conquer his fears on the formidable mountain, he applied to transform a discontented team into a satisfied and high-performing one. His leadership style, a blend of balance and integrity, has been instrumental in creating a fulfilling workspace and enhancing the performance of his team.
Not just limited to his corporate leadership, Wayne compares the process of corporate transformation to climbing Mount Kilimanjaro. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the 'North Star' of your organization and hiring the best talent to fulfill it. Wayne's insightful narrative seamlessly weaves the lessons from his mountain climbing adventure into his corporate journey, providing valuable insights into leading a team towards greatness. Tune in to get inspired and learn how you too can navigate challenging leadership landscapes.
Jaro’s mission is to improve creative workplaces.
And Wayne’s team of corporate leadership and transformation guides has helped
improve leaders and creative processes, optimize cost models, and rebuild stagnant
cultures into more fulfilled, mission-driven ones—for companies like Boeing, Hasbro,
UKG, UW Medicine, SAP/Concur, CU Boulder, and more.
Wayne knows in-house, as previous to Jaro, Wayne was the Director of Creative &
Brand at Boeing – where he led one of the industry’s most challenging and most
successful cultural transformations. When Wayne began in 2013, employee
satisfaction was 55% and plummeting. When Wayne left in 2020, 88% of employees
surveyed indicated that they trusted, felt challenged and were fulfilled by their work
on the team.
Wayne also has taught at the University of Washington and long ago, ran PR firms
and ad agencies. Wayne gives back by actively supporting organizations such as Big
Brothers Big Sisters, Make-A-Wish Foundation and more. He has run a marathon
and climbed Africa’s Mount Kilimanjaro – after which he named his company.
Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please support us on Patreon.
For more leadership tools, check out the free workbooks at KylaCofer.com/freestuff.
Book Kyla to speak at your event here, or to connect further, reach out to Kyla on LinkedIn and Instagram.
All transcripts are created with Descript, an amazing transcript creation and editing tool. Check it out for yourself!
Leadership School Production:
Produced by Kyla Cofer
Edited by Neel Panji @ PodLeaF Productions
Assistant Production Alaina Hulette
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wayne Barringer (00:00):
If you're a leader, your responsibility is
to lead your team somewherefantastic.
It's not just to endure everyday, it's not just to open up
your email, have a zero in box,go to all your meetings and go
home and plop on the couch.
That's not your role, and itcan be more uplifting, more
energizing to actually go dowhat you were meant to do and
(00:21):
bring your team forward.
Kyla Cofer (00:28):
Welcome to the Leadership School podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal Teach you how to be anextraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:55):
I'm introducing you today toWayne Barringer.
Wayne is a former executive atBoeing, where he took a huge
group of employees from 52%employee satisfaction to 90%
employee satisfaction in justfive years.
So he's going to walk usthrough today exactly how he did
that.
But not only that.
(01:15):
He's going to tell us about areally cool experience he had
climbing a big, famous mountain.
I'm not going to tell you whichone; you're going to have to
listen to find out and he takesall of those experiences and
shares with us a five-stepframework on how to be
successful and lead your team togreatness.
Thank you, Wayne, for joiningme.
I'm really excited to sharethis story with our audience
(01:37):
today.
Wayne, I really appreciate youtaking time out of your day and
spending this time and sharingyour story with me.
I'm really excited to hear moredetails of your story because
it's a really fascinatingjourney.
So thanks for being here andjoining me on the podcast today.
Wayne Barringer (01:50):
Thank you for having me.
It's terrific to be with you,Kyla.
Kyla Cofer (01:53):
Well, Wayne, why don't you tell us a little bit
about your story, what bringsyou here, and tell us about your
expertise and your journey?
Wayne Barringer (01:59):
Yeah, so I founded, in 2020, a consulting
firm that we call the Jaro Group, and that's a nod to one of the
most transformative experiencesthat I've had in my life,
combined with the consultingthat I do.
And in 2018, I got to climbMount Kilimanjaro with one of my
sons and a couple friends andsome other fellow climbers and
(02:20):
just had a transformativeexperience in many elements on
that trip, and that is aparallel path that has I guess
it's not parallel if it is nowintersected with my consulting
and coaching practice.
So, for out of doing this, Iworked about eight years leading
a large in-house creative andcommunications team at Boeing
and before that let a lot of adagencies, PR firms, and then
(02:41):
even worked at some universitycommunications and taught a
little bit.
So I've done all the thingsthat someone at this gray-haired
station of career might havedone in marketing and comms.
Kyla Cofer (02:52):
So you spent a lot of time in marketing and PR and
that led you to leading thiscreative group at Boeing, which
has led you to Jaro Group andit's so funny because I knew the
name was Jaro Group and I alsoknew you climbed Mount
Kilimanjaro, but I just now putthat together the name of it.
So I think that's pretty funand I want to hear about your
climb and how that's affectingyou right now too.
(03:14):
But first I want to chat alittle bit about your experience
at Boeing, because you had areally significant experience
there.
Can you talk about whathappened at Boeing?
Wayne Barringer (03:22):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, longtime ad agency PR
firm entry-level worker all theway to leading an office of 50
for an international PR firm andother things.
So I got to see a lot ofdifferent ways that companies
and agencies operate and workand function and, truth be told
keep this between you and me,Kyla, but I'm probably not as
good a marketer technician as Iam a leader of how those groups
(03:46):
can operate and function forefficiency and impact and enjoy.
So I did all that, wound upgoing to Boeing in 2011.
And about 18 months into thatjob, I got asked to lead a
300-person in-house creativedesign communication team.
That team was at that moment in2013, really dysfunctional,
(04:06):
really unhappy, really sort offractured and scattered
physically across about 12different offices and
collectively nice.
Kyla Cofer (04:15):
Were those offices around the world or just here in
the US.
Wayne Barringer (04:18):
At that point it was in the US, so 12
different offices in the US, 300people.
About 40 of those people workedfrom home.
This is in 2013, so we weren'tas good at that then and the
culture reflected all of thatsort of I wouldn't even call it
diversity.
It was just stratification andfracture.
On top of that, there werecreative people, there were
(04:38):
technical people, there wereengineering-focused technical
people.
Which one of these don't belongwas kind of the, as I walked in
and observed this kind of whatwe did, and the day that I got
there, the employee surveyscores were 52%.
Kyla Cofer (04:53):
That's pretty low.
Wayne Barringer (04:54):
Like, if you study these things, it's about
as low as it gets 52% is verylow, for this is employee
satisfaction.
Kyla Cofer (05:01):
That's correct.
Was this all employees or justin your, the creative team, in
the team that?
Wayne Barringer (05:06):
I inherited.
Kyla Cofer (05:08):
Okay, which was about?
Wayne Barringer (05:09):
300 people, roughly 300.
Kyla Cofer (05:11):
300 people.
They are not happy in theirjobs.
Wayne Barringer (05:15):
They are not happy.
Kyla Cofer (05:16):
And this is the team that you've just come to take
on.
Did you know that when you tookthe position, I did.
Wayne Barringer (05:20):
I sort of got myself into the job.
My communications role was forone of the top executives at
Boeing and he assigned me aproject and he said, Wayne, we
can't screw this up.
So what did I do?
I went to our in-house agencyto partner and help create this
brochure.
That was a big deal at the time.
First, some internal consobjectives that executive had.
I was new to the company.
(05:41):
I thought that was the rightthing to do.
It was except being an agencyguy and now being a client of
the in-house agency.
It was an eye-openingexperience about what was going
on over there.
So I took it by myself to tryand constructively go to the
director of that department.
At the time she was new.
I said, hey, I love 30 minutes,I've been to agencies.
I just want to share some bestpractices that might help your
(06:03):
team.
She said, if you're willing totalk, I'll give you all the time
that it takes.
Three hours later, in a fullnotebook and notes, she walked
out going.
Wow, I walked out going she'slistening, she's going to help
us get to a better place.
Six months later I got a joboffer to take that group over
and I told you the rest of theshort part of the story.
Kyla Cofer (06:22):
So you took that 52 percent and that dissatisfaction
and you completely turned thataround.
Wayne Barringer (06:28):
Yeah, so we did turn that around.
It was very challenging but atthe end of what we worked on in
that group, the employeesatisfaction was 90 percent.
Kyla Cofer (06:37):
That's significant.
That's not a small leap.
How long did it take you tomake that change?
Wayne Barringer (06:41):
Well, it's a really common question and the
answer sounds like a long time.
So that first employee surveyscore was in 2013.
The first time we got 90percent was 2018, so five years.
Kyla Cofer (06:52):
I don't think that sounds like a long time at all,
because making a change in aorganization that's that large
takes a lot of work, becauseyou're not just changing one
person's opinion, you're notjust firing the bad egg the
employee right, you're having tochange a complete culture and a
way of being, and changing itfrom 52 to 90 percent is a
significant difference.
(07:13):
How did you do that?
Wayne Barringer (07:15):
Yeah, it is a big difference, and you could
feel the difference in every way, and so could everybody there.
How did we do that?
The first thing we did so letme just say that sort of our
charter was hey, we've tried tofix this group for 20 years and
this is our last attempt.
So if you can't fix it, wayne,like we're done.
Because I was like hey, I'm justthe new guy here at Boeing,
(07:36):
like no, so I felt a little bitlike a scapegoat, but I ran
toward the gunfire, and so thefirst thing I noticed was we had
four leaders that were leadingthat group of 300, none of which
had had any agency experience,any other relevant marketing
experience outside of Boeing.
The things that they emphasizedand talked to their teams about
(07:57):
every day were not productive.
They were what they wereexpected to do from the leaders
they had at the time, but Icouldn't find a way to get those
leaders that were there turnedaround.
So the first thing we did aftersix months of kind of looking
at it, my boss and I, we letthose folks go.
Kyla Cofer (08:13):
But you didn't do that right away.
You did.
It said six months.
So in six months you kind ofyou were doing like an inventory
to figure out what was going onfirst.
Wayne Barringer (08:21):
That's right, yeah, so I'll back up even
further.
Great point One of the veryfirst things I did was scheduled
six 20 to 30 person sort oflistening sessions around the
country Because, as I mentioned,we had 12 different offices so
I couldn't go to all 12, but wewent to six of the biggest and
just got people together in agroup.
So it didn't turn into a one onone sort of gripe session, but
it was a group sort of I justwant to hear what's working,
(08:44):
what's not working, why isn't itworking, what are the clients
or stakeholders think, et cetera.
Got a tremendous amount ofhonesty through those sessions.
Almost everything that we woundup changing.
People said needed to change inthose sessions and people also
said in those sessions you'regoing to ruin this organization.
I don't know why you're evendoing this.
We always have leaders thatcome in and then they leave Just
(09:05):
really difficult things.
So they were eye opening aswell.
Kyla Cofer (09:10):
So you came in to do these listening sessions.
You're new in this role.
You're still kind of trying tofigure out what you're going to
do and how this is going to playout.
So you go and you're tryinglike tell me what's going on,
Let me get the overall bigpicture, and they tell you we
don't really want you here andyou're going to fail.
How did you respond to that?
Well, it was awesome.
Wayne Barringer (09:31):
Now I tell you I had never been in a situation
like that ever in my careerbecause I worked at ad agencies.
They are PR firms and they'rethe fun places, right.
It was, I think if I didn'thave the kind of support that I
had from my boss, it would havebeen much more sort of
debilitating is kind of thewrong word, but sort of just
like wait a minute, what have Idone here?
I certainly have those moments,but I had a knowing of what
(09:53):
needed to be done to fix this.
I just I did, and anybody who'slistening.
We all have those moments inlife, and for some they happen
more than others, where you havea situation and you just know
the right thing to do.
And I just had that knowingabout what to do with this group
.
My whole career before it hadbeen to prepare for, you know, a
master's degree in how greatcreative organizations can
function and it was prettyevident to me to see where the
(10:16):
dysfunction was, why it wasthere.
And then they all validatedthat in these listening sessions
.
And then I also get to see theinner workings of what was being
emphasized by the leaders on aday-to-day basis down into the
teams, and I knew that was nothelpful either.
So, yeah, it was scary, but Ialso had this knowing and I also
had support, and I just said,hey, I'm here and we're either
(10:39):
gonna sink or swim, and I'mgonna swim until I can't.
Kyla Cofer (10:43):
So so I'm just gonna go for it and try anyways, and
we're gonna just do this thing.
So you paid attention, youlistened, you realized that
those four top leaders needed togo, that it just wasn't going
to work.
Did you replace them?
What did you do once you letthose go which is hard to do,
let's just acknowledge that'shard to do.
It's to let people because youknow that affects them and it
affects everything.
(11:03):
That's a hard decision to make.
Wayne Barringer (11:05):
I've never told this story in public before.
But the day before I wassupposed to do that, I went to
my boss and said I can't do it.
Like, I want to figure out away to help these guys get
better.
And she put her arm around meand said Wayne, you know what
the right thing to do is.
We've had six months.
You're gonna do it, you'regonna have courage and we're
gonna do it together.
And it was the best thing ever,because and we help people
(11:28):
through similar journeys nowNone of the situations I've had
as the Jaro group founder andCEO, consulting clients, has
ever been quite what this was.
But there's always situationswhere you know somebody just
isn't the right fit.
You've tried to teach, you'vetried to coach, you've tried to
rehab and 99% of leaders justlet that fester.
(11:48):
Why?
For the same reason, I almostdid.
Well, I'm not comfortable, I'mgonna ruin their life.
I, I, I, I, I.
It's not about that.
It's about the other 296 peoplein your organization who are
being negatively affected by theway those folks are leading.
So I just am really gratefulfor my boss, Loretta, at the
time, who said no, you know whatthe right thing to do is.
(12:11):
You've been telling me, Wayne,for six months, we're gonna do
it.
Kyla Cofer (12:14):
Okay, so we made that decision, and then what
happened?
Wayne Barringer (12:17):
The next day we went on the journey of finding
the replacements.
I decided that I was going tohire a mix of people.
I wanted to find one person toreplace who had a really strong
art creative director in-housebackground.
I hired somebody from Disney.
I want to find somebody withagency experience of some sort
(12:37):
At an executive level.
We found somebody from Edelman.
I wanted to find somebody elsewho maybe wasn't as hard driving
or somebody who could kind ofglue us all together from a
personality perspective andmaybe their experience was a
variety of places.
It didn't matter.
Hire somebody just like thattoo.
So those three women wereabsolutely powerhouses.
I get a lot of opportunities todo things like this for change
(13:01):
in that group, but they reallydid it on a day-to-day basis.
They were so excited about thatopportunity, they bought into
that vision and that changedeverything.
Kyla Cofer (13:11):
Well.
So I'm glad you said that,because we talk about this a lot
at leadership school is thatthe leaders, we are the ones who
have that vision and bringother people along towards that
vision, and you have to getpeople to buy into it.
So the team that you hadbrought along this vision passed
that to these leaders, madesure you had the right leaders
in place who could be on boardwith that vision, and then
brought everybody else along theway.
(13:31):
You had quite impressive,significant results because of
this.
Wayne Barringer (13:37):
Yeah, it was the preeminent decision I think
that I made that we werefortunate enough to be able to
make and wound up, choosingexceptionally well, being
fortunate to have a greatcandidate pool for each of those
folks that we hired, and theycame in super excited.
They all started on the sameday and on that day we had a
two-day workshop, just the fourof us, and we mapped out the
(13:59):
road ahead, and then they wereable to go into their
organizations and see forthemselves and we made changes
based on their observations aswell, et cetera.
And then we just started goingdown the group and deciding what
managers below them were goingto be able to be on board with
the vision.
Gave them the vision, gave themtraining.
Some of them were, some of themweren't.
We just started basicallyrehabilitating the whole group
(14:22):
and we always and I love to hearwhat you think about this, Kyla
, too but if you're going torehab an organization, if an
organization is not performing,whether it's a football team or
a creative team or anything inbetween, the leader is
responsible.
It's the leader'sresponsibility.
It may not be their fault, butit is their responsibility.
And if it's your responsibility, if you're going to go assess
(14:46):
what the issues are veryobjectively and then go to work
at optimizing the strengths andneutralizing the kryptonite, and
if some of the kryptonite aresome individuals or a manager
that you've had for 10 or 15years, it's time to do that.
Kyla Cofer (15:00):
Well, I think it's important too how you said that
all the leaders were on the samepage, because you get a lot of
personalities when you have thatmany people that you're working
with and when you've got peoplewho that's their job is to lead
the organization.
If they're not on the same page, then all the time that you
could be spending on rebuildingand shaping an organization is
(15:22):
spent on just trying to getalong and trying to.
I don't know, leaders, we kindof get in fights, right.
We're fighting back and forthto each other, like no, my idea
is better.
No, my idea is the way to go.
No, we're going to do it thisway, and if you guys can't work
together in that, then there'sno success to be had.
Wayne Barringer (15:39):
Well, let me not give a false impression that
we had no fights.
You can imagine the dynamism ofthe moments.
It was very challenging theenvironment, the task, the day
to day, all of that.
And I didn't hire wall floppers.
So these were strong, smart,opinionated, energetic women
(15:59):
that were; they just happened tobe women, they were on board as
well.
So we had disagreements and wecame together and we made that
place a much more fulfillingplace to be.
Kyla Cofer (16:10):
Because you knew your vision right.
So the disagreements you knewwhere you were going.
And so when people disagree atthat level, it's because they're
passionate about it and they'reexcited about that vision, and
they have different ways ofgoing, but ultimately it's that
goal that you're working towardsand that goal guides you and
directs you.
Wayne Barringer (16:30):
Absolutely right.
We had disagreements on the how.
We never disagreed on the why.
So the why was always clear,always visible and always just
in the hearts of us andeverybody else.
That wound up kind of goingthrough that and making it
through that and making it thegreat place that it turned into.
That's awesome.
Kyla Cofer (16:49):
Well, let's shift a little bit.
I mean, I think you spent fiveyears there, so I feel like in
our short time here we couldtalk quite in depth about that,
the rest of that experience.
But I do want to shift becauseI want to hear a little bit more
about Mount Kilimanjaro and howthat is shaping the framework
that you are doing with Jaro,because you're doing some really
cool things.
So I want to tell our audienceabout that and how it can
support and help them in theirleadership journey as well.
Wayne Barringer (17:10):
Yeah, Thank you , I appreciate that.
So all of that angst was kindof we had sort of overcome and I
still went out of.
Coach was kind of coaching methrough parts of that.
And that coach took a group ofhis clients on a rock climbing
trip to Joshua Tree NationalPark and all we had to do was
get there and he set everythingelse up.
It was kind of a thank you forour work together.
(17:31):
And on the evening before wewere going to rock climb none of
us had ever rock climbed, bythe way he took us to dinner,
bought us a steak dinner.
The wine was flowing.
Right before we left he said ohhey, I want to show you a 15
minute slideshow.
I'm taking a group of people toMount Kilimanjaro in September
this was like February.
Do you guys want to go?
And we're like hell, yeah, wewant to go.
(17:52):
Of course, Nobody ever mountainclimbed, including me, Nothing
like that.
But we all said yes, in thespirit of the evening, We'll
come the next day.
And I was like what have I justagreed to?
I started looking up what MountKilimanjaro is and where it is
and how high it is and, by theway, it's in the middle of
Africa.
By the way, it's 19,300 andsomewhat feet.
(18:14):
By the way, oxygen gets thinnerwhen you go up and, by the way
you can probably hear, I haveairway vocal cord challenges.
My airway is about half of whatmost people's is, so like now
I'm like wait, I can't do this.
Now, where has that?
Or have you heard that beforefrom me?
Kyla Cofer (18:32):
You're not a huge fan of saying I can't do this
and listening to that voice, areyou?
That voice is?
Wayne Barringer (18:36):
just obnoxious, and I will say I've listened to
it.
Right, we all have, and itdoesn't turn out well most of
the time when you do.
So yeah, so we went on thattrip and, as I said, having gone
through the experience that Ijust described and having gone
through this physicalexperience, so many parallels,
(18:57):
the most amazing of which is theawesomeness that is when you
complete it.
All the struggle, all thechallenge evaporates because
it's so awesome to complete it.
That was just a great learning,one of the many great learnings
from climbing that mountain.
Kyla Cofer (19:15):
You made the top.
Wayne Barringer (19:16):
We were the first group that our guide had
taken in 23 trips where alleight of us made it to the top
and to the bottom.
Kyla Cofer (19:24):
Yeah, that's amazing .
Congratulations, that's a hugeaccomplishment.
You said you did it with yourson.
Wayne Barringer (19:30):
My oldest son went.
My youngest son was juststarting his freshman year of
college.
He and we sort of decidedtaking the first three weeks of
school off.
In retrospect I would have hadhim go, but he was in that dad
mode and so whatever.
Then I emailed 35 of my friendssaid, hey, going on this trip?
One guy from that group decidedto go.
(19:50):
Then somebody else from work'shusband also wanted to go, whom
I didn't know but now is a verygood friend.
Then there were four otherpeople that were on that rock
climbing trip.
That I really didn't know verywell.
Kyla Cofer (20:03):
Hey leaders, have you ever considered starting
your very own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience in creating
this leadership school podcast.
I have grown my business, Ihave learned, exponentially.
I've had a ton of fun and myconfidence level has increased
10 fold by continuing to show upand put on a really great show.
(20:28):
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self doubt, would
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do is, right now, go to
podcasterschool.
net.
That's podcasterschool.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
(20:48):
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule a call with me and
let's check.
I want to hear about what yourpotential ideas are and what
would make you interested instarting a podcast.
It's such a fantastic way toreally increase your knowledge,
your business and really getyourself out into the world.
Take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
(21:09):
get started on your very ownshow.
Well, what an experience.
How does that affect whatyou're doing now?
I mean, you named your businessafter this.
Now you're doing consulting.
You're no longer at Boeing,you're doing the coaching and
the consulting, which is reallyinteresting.
I find a lot of most leadersare doing that.
You go through the ranks andthen you get to a point where
you're like I'm going to teachother people how to do this.
(21:29):
Tell me about what that lookslike and how your experiences
are shaping that.
Wayne Barringer (21:35):
I think the biggest thing that I started to
realize is all the fear that Ihad about that Boeing experience
and all the fear that I hadabout Kilimanjaro, like we just
talked about, is just not worthlistening to.
Here's the main point.
Everybody not everybody, many,many leaders have the same fear
maybe not at the level ofintensity that I did about
transforming that Boeingorganization, and so they avoid
(21:57):
it.
They don't do it and they don'thave leaders, like I did that
say no, I'm going to be therewith you, we're going to do it
together.
Also, 99.5% of the people onthis planet do not climb Mount
Kilimanjaro.
Why?
For whatever reason, they can't, or they legitimately can't
afford it, or they can't takethe time, or all those things
can be overcome.
The thing I learned about MountKilimanjaro is if I can climb
(22:19):
that mountain with thechallenges that I just have and
I'm fine with those things,they're just part of me.
Anybody can climb it.
And the same is true withorganizational transformation.
If I was able to do what we didat Boeing, anybody can do it.
So the parallels are reallyreally tight.
One of them is sort ofemotional and intellectual and
(22:39):
the other one is physical, butthey're both some of the same
premises.
One of the most powerful partsof the Kilimanjaro experience
and it's why we renamed mycompany, Jaro, Jaro Group is as
daunting as it was and asplanful as we made our training.
We would have never made itwithout the guides that guided
us up that mountain.
And it's not just hey, here'syour guide plan, follow it and
(23:03):
get to the top.
It was day four.
I blacked out, I didn't knowwhere I was.
Probably, was dehydrated a bitat 15,000 feet, and my guide
showed up in front of me andtook the backpack from my back
and put it on his back and saidfollow my footsteps, don't
meander, and we'll get back tocamp.
(23:23):
And that's all I had to do.
And three hours later I wasback at camp and three days
later I was on the top offreaking Africa.
It was fantastic.
That's what we try to do whenwe work with clients.
It's not about benchmarkingreports and giant PowerPoint
slide decks.
It's about we're going to workthe plan with you.
We're going to help youovercome your fear.
(23:43):
We're going to help you get towhere you said you want to go.
We're going to be with youevery step of the way.
And I just think the synergiesand everything about it are so
parallel.
That's why we changed the name.
Kyla Cofer (23:53):
First of all, that's extremely powerful, and I love
the correlation to the mentalmountains that we climb and the
literal mountain that youclimbed and thinking about,
especially for young leaders,for entrepreneurs, small
business owners, for people whoare really trying to grow to
climb that corporate ladder.
Think about it as terms ofladder, but the corporate
(24:15):
mountain really trying to getthere, or even just our lives.
I mean, come on, this is in2023, we have a lot piled on top
of us.
We've just came through apandemic.
That is, though it's officiallyover, it's not really over for
some people, and you've got aneconomy that's struggling,
housing markets going crazy.
I mean, sometimes just gettingup and going through your day
(24:38):
feels like a mountain to climb,and when you're trying to
improve yourself, betteryourself, go forward and meet
these goals that you have, theyare mountains that we climb, and
to hear you say that if I cando it, anybody can do it.
I've heard so many leaders saythis, and it's hard when you
haven't done it to believe it.
It's hard to go well, that'seasy for them to say.
(25:00):
We say well, that's easier forthem to say because they've done
it, or but yeah, but they haveall these experiences and all
these resources that I don'thave.
But you didn't.
You didn't know what you weredoing when you started Boeing.
You had never climbed amountain before.
You followed people who couldteach you and lead the way, and
you had that support and you'dwent forward anyways, and you
tried.
Wayne Barringer (25:19):
Yeah, I totally agree.
And there's things in my lifenow that I'm scared of right or
I don't think I have the this,that or the other for it, and
that's why I just think thatthat guide experience on the
mountain and my boss, who puther arm around me, and the team
that I wound up forming, likeit's so important to have the
right group together that canhelp you when you're stuck, can
(25:42):
call you on your BS right, canhelp you through sort of getting
rid of that, that voice in yourhead that stalls you out.
It's just been so true for methat every time in my life when
that experience has presenteditself, that sort of
togetherness, it can pretty muchdo anything.
Kyla Cofer (26:00):
And you really can.
It feels it can feel impossible.
It can feel daunting,especially when you're at the
bottom of the mountain lookingup, but when you're at the top
of the mountain looking backdown, you go.
I did this, I made it.
Wayne Barringer (26:13):
So the day that we got the employee survey back
that was 90%.
I almost didn't believe it,just like the day that we hiked
all night to the top.
So the last night, Summit Nightis what it's called, it gets to
the top at dawn, at sunrise,and to look over that, basically
the whole eastern part of theAfrican continent, from 19,000
feet and see the orange and redand yellow, I couldn't believe
(26:36):
it.
You know, I told my wife likeI'm crying up here, like but not
I can call her up there.
But when I got down I wascrying like she's like yeah,
because you're on a mountain inthe middle of Africa, man, like
so it just hits you in ways thatyou can't anticipate that are
so fantastic.
And again it's a similarparallel.
So I would just say don't notdo it because you're not sure if
the rewards are gonna be goodenough.
(26:57):
Like the journey's well worthit and the rewards, if you do
achieve it, are beyond.
Kyla Cofer (27:03):
The journey is worth it.
It really is.
Even if you hadn't made it tothe top like that which you said
not everybody does like,there's something in that
journey and in the doing that wegrow and become stronger and
become more into who we're meantto be, and that's really
amazing.
When people are working withyou with the JARO group, you've
mentioned to me previously thatyou have a five step framework.
Can you walk us through?
I think you've kind of did italready, but can you tell us the
(27:25):
step by step, your five stepframework and what that looks
like?
Wayne Barringer (27:28):
Yeah, you bet.
So we work on organizationalchange and the whole idea is how
do you improve if you want torather improve your team's
efficiency, impact and joy andfulfillment?
We've got a recipe that we made, all the mistakes and some of
the successes for sure,perfecting it, Boeing and all my
(27:48):
previous experience and thingsthat I gather and stuff like
that.
Usually, when groups callconsultants like me or others,
if they're not looking just forone on one coaching, if they're
looking for organizational stuff, they often say our process is
broken, we have a processproblem or gosh, can you help us
implement this technology toolthat will fix all of our
(28:09):
problems?
The SaaS companies are verygood at marketing their tools is
the easy button right, just pay, you know, whatever the monthly
subscription is for 1000 seatsand abracadabra, everything's
going to be great.
Well, guess what?
There are more SaaS tools onthe shelf, particularly in
creative organizations in the US, and there are more process
(28:31):
maps that are sitting on theshelf not being utilized.
Why?
Because those two pieces arethe most frequently asked to
solve, but when you implementthem, all they do is exacerbate
or shine a light on the problemsthat we consider to be upstream
from that.
So we have a five step process.
Those are the last two processtools.
(28:52):
The first part of the process islike we talked about a minute
ago at Boeing what is the NorthStar?
What is the why, what is thepurpose of your organization,
why does it exist and what is itsupposed to be doing for the
company?
If you can get clear on thatand articulate that with some
inspiration and create a groupof advocates, not just people
(29:14):
who understand, advocates forthat North Star, that's the
first step.
If you can't do it, don't doanything else, because if you
don't have that, you don't haveair cover above and you don't
have people that are relevant toyou getting the job done on
your site.
So what's the strategy?
What's the North Star?
The second step is what is theorg structure without people's
(29:34):
names?
What roles in an org structuredo you need to fulfill that
North Star?
Not in job description terms,but almost.
Like what's the two sentencerole?
And again, no names.
You're not allowed to put namesat this stage, because what I
did, what everybody does, isthey go.
Oh well, Susie will be greatfor this role.
Well, Susie doesn't have anyexperience in that role, right?
(29:57):
How do we know Susie?
Let's put it through a filter.
So what structuring rolesfulfill that North Star?
Step three talent.
Who is the best talent that youcan imagine for these roles?
Then process that talent thatyou put in place should define
what the processes are.
And then tools Based on theprocess.
(30:17):
Here's the tools that you needto help that system run Five
steps.
I'll tell anybody all the stepsfor it.
They want to do it themselvesGreat.
What I'm here to tell you isdoing it yourself.
If you've ever done a homerepair by yourself, you always
call a handyman after you openup the wall on go what have I
done?
Kyla Cofer (30:35):
Well, it's just like the mountain, right?
You could tell me all the stepsI need to climb Mount
Kilimanjaro.
But standing right there on thebottom of the mountain, even if
I know all the steps and knowthe path, it's still going to be
pretty hard to do.
It would be really great tohave someone who's done it
before, especially if somethinggoes wrong.
Wayne Barringer (30:51):
And most people are less likely to take that
first step when they're standingat the bottom of a mountain
like Kilimanjaro if they don'thave somebody with a plan, if
somebody they know is gonnaguide them up.
In fact, this is interestingit's in their sync sort of flip
corollary between these Jarothings and the Kilimanjaro and
the consulting.
80% of corporate change effortsorganizationally fail.
(31:13):
You can look it up.
80%.
Fast Company and HarvardBusiness Review, I think, is the
first place I saw that stat.
I've seen it as high as 90 andas low as 70.
So I use 80, because that's thetwo sort of averages, right?
About 75% of people that tryKilimanjaro make it.
So we can" do corporate changein the US.
(31:35):
80% of the time it fails, but80% of people that try
Kilimanjaro make it.
What's the difference?
There's a law in Tanzania whereif you're climbing that mountain
you have to go with a certifiedofficial guide.
You can't do it on your own.
Why?
Because Tanzania would havedeath and failure and human
tragedy, because it's seven dayswithout water and food and all
(31:57):
the things.
So I just think that's a veryinteresting opposition corollary
.
If you want to try it yourself,I'll give you all the answers,
happily, because some people cando it.
I'm not saying nobody can do it, but boy, does it change the
game when you've got some of youwho knows what they're doing,
who's been there and who'scommitted to your safety and
your success.
And that's what we try to do.
Kyla Cofer (32:19):
Well, and that's what we all tried to do when we
went to college right, we wentto college because there were
people there who could teach usthe skills, because they'd done
them or assumed or had learnedto do them, and we could learn
from those people.
And that's what a college degreeis meant to do is to teach you,
or an apprenticeship, aninternship, any type of
education that we pursued, it'sbecause we're trying to learn
(32:41):
from people who've done it andso that we can go and do it
ourselves.
And at this point in the historyof the world, there is so much
knowledge to be had and we canlearn how to do everything.
And for us, our own experiencewe might not have had the
experiences of learning how todo everything, but we'll figure
it out and then it'll be ourturn to share that and to be the
(33:04):
guide and to teach other people, which is what you're doing and
which so many leaders do, andI'm just so grateful for,
because, I mean, that's whatwe've all had to learn that way,
and how many of us had thoughtthat things were impossible
until someone told us it wasn't.
You know how many of us thoughtthat the voice that you have
listened to when you said it wastoo hard and you're gonna
listen to that voice saying youcan't do it.
I've listened to that voice somany times.
(33:25):
We've all like you said andit's way easier to listen to
that voice when we don't havesomeone telling us that it's
wrong.
Wayne Barringer (33:31):
Yeah, it's exceptionally easy to listen to
that voice because it tends tocause us to not do things, and
not doing things is inherentlyeasy.
Easier sometimes, I'll tell you, like climate, mount Kilmawyer
was not a picnic, right.
You're sleeping on the dirt,it's 40 degrees or less.
It's you know all the thingsthat you can imagine sleeping on
a mountain in Africa.
(33:52):
And we had help, like we hadguys that were incredible out
when it's carry stuff andbringing water, because you just
can't one person can't carryenough water for a week, and
then food and all that stuff.
So, to have somebody to helpyou do something, do the right
things, like you said, who'sbeen there, who's seen it and
knows you can do it, itcompletely changes the success
(34:13):
ratios, for sure.
Kyla Cofer (34:14):
Well, yeah, Wayne, this has been such a great
conversation and I would love tocontinue, but we need to wrap
up.
So is there anything you wannamake that you feel like may have
been left out, or wanna makesure that our listeners hear any
final pieces of wisdom?
I?
Wayne Barringer (34:27):
just think that , as I and you probably see this
too talk to people in corporateAmerica today, there is so much
suffering.
You alluded to COVID and we'restill kind of dealing with the
after effects of that.
I think it's accelerated, butit was there before.
It's just not necessary.
It doesn't have to be that wayand the solutions are as clear
as what we've talked about today.
(34:48):
Not easy, but they're notcomplex.
We just create complexities bylistening to all the voices.
So if there's one thing I wannaencourage people, it's if
you're a leader, yourresponsibility it's to lead your
team somewhere fantastic.
It's not just to endure everyday.
It's not just to open up youremail, have a zero in box, go to
all your meetings and go homeand plop on the couch.
(35:11):
That's not your role, and itcan be more uplifting, more
energizing to actually go dowhat you were meant to do and
bring your team forward.
So I'll stop there, but that'swhat I really leave everyone
with.
Kyla Cofer (35:23):
Absolutely, and I haven't been to church in a
while, but that sounded like asermon.
I'm loving this.
It was great, Wayne.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timeand your expertise and just
sharing your stories.
It's just really inspiring andI'm just really grateful and
honored to hear and share yourstory with you, thank you.
Wayne Barringer (35:41):
Gratitude and honor is mine.
Thank you, Kyla, it's beenfantastic and fun.
Kyla Cofer (35:47):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews is over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed, more casual
(36:09):
conversation.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out atpatreoncom slash leadership
school and for $6.50 a month youcan support this podcast.
(36:34):
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(36:54):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreoncom
slash leadership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions,and you'll get some bonus
content over there, so be sureto go check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(37:15):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
If you're a leader, your responsibility is
to lead your team somewherefantastic.
It's not just to endure everyday, it's not just to open up
your email, have a zero in box,go to all your meetings and go
home and plop on the couch.
That's not your role, and itcan be more uplifting, more
energizing to actually go dowhat you were meant to do and
(00:21):
bring your team forward.
Kyla Cofer (00:28):
Welcome to the Leadership School podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal Teach you how to be anextraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:55):
I'm introducing you today toWayne Barringer.
Wayne is a former executive atBoeing, where he took a huge
group of employees from 52%employee satisfaction to 90%
employee satisfaction in justfive years.
So he's going to walk usthrough today exactly how he did
that.
But not only that.
(01:15):
He's going to tell us about areally cool experience he had
climbing a big, famous mountain.
I'm not going to tell you whichone; you're going to have to
listen to find out and he takesall of those experiences and
shares with us a five-stepframework on how to be
successful and lead your team togreatness.
Thank you, Wayne, for joiningme.
I'm really excited to sharethis story with our audience
(01:37):
today.
Wayne, I really appreciate youtaking time out of your day and
spending this time and sharingyour story with me.
I'm really excited to hear moredetails of your story because
it's a really fascinatingjourney.
So thanks for being here andjoining me on the podcast today.
Wayne Barringer (01:50):
Thank you for having me.
It's terrific to be with you,Kyla.
Kyla Cofer (01:53):
Well, Wayne, why don't you tell us a little bit
about your story, what bringsyou here, and tell us about your
expertise and your journey?
Wayne Barringer (01:59):
Yeah, so I founded, in 2020, a consulting
firm that we call the Jaro Group, and that's a nod to one of the
most transformative experiencesthat I've had in my life,
combined with the consultingthat I do.
And in 2018, I got to climbMount Kilimanjaro with one of my
sons and a couple friends andsome other fellow climbers and
(02:20):
just had a transformativeexperience in many elements on
that trip, and that is aparallel path that has I guess
it's not parallel if it is nowintersected with my consulting
and coaching practice.
So, for out of doing this, Iworked about eight years leading
a large in-house creative andcommunications team at Boeing
and before that let a lot of adagencies, PR firms, and then
(02:41):
even worked at some universitycommunications and taught a
little bit.
So I've done all the thingsthat someone at this gray-haired
station of career might havedone in marketing and comms.
Kyla Cofer (02:52):
So you spent a lot of time in marketing and PR and
that led you to leading thiscreative group at Boeing, which
has led you to Jaro Group andit's so funny because I knew the
name was Jaro Group and I alsoknew you climbed Mount
Kilimanjaro, but I just now putthat together the name of it.
So I think that's pretty funand I want to hear about your
climb and how that's affectingyou right now too.
(03:14):
But first I want to chat alittle bit about your experience
at Boeing, because you had areally significant experience
there.
Can you talk about whathappened at Boeing?
Wayne Barringer (03:22):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, longtime ad agency PR
firm entry-level worker all theway to leading an office of 50
for an international PR firm andother things.
So I got to see a lot ofdifferent ways that companies
and agencies operate and workand function and, truth be told
keep this between you and me,Kyla, but I'm probably not as
good a marketer technician as Iam a leader of how those groups
(03:46):
can operate and function forefficiency and impact and enjoy.
So I did all that, wound upgoing to Boeing in 2011.
And about 18 months into thatjob, I got asked to lead a
300-person in-house creativedesign communication team.
That team was at that moment in2013, really dysfunctional,
(04:06):
really unhappy, really sort offractured and scattered
physically across about 12different offices and
collectively nice.
Kyla Cofer (04:15):
Were those offices around the world or just here in
the US.
Wayne Barringer (04:18):
At that point it was in the US, so 12
different offices in the US, 300people.
About 40 of those people workedfrom home.
This is in 2013, so we weren'tas good at that then and the
culture reflected all of thatsort of I wouldn't even call it
diversity.
It was just stratification andfracture.
On top of that, there werecreative people, there were
(04:38):
technical people, there wereengineering-focused technical
people.
Which one of these don't belongwas kind of the, as I walked in
and observed this kind of whatwe did, and the day that I got
there, the employee surveyscores were 52%.
Kyla Cofer (04:53):
That's pretty low.
Wayne Barringer (04:54):
Like, if you study these things, it's about
as low as it gets 52% is verylow, for this is employee
satisfaction.
Kyla Cofer (05:01):
That's correct.
Was this all employees or justin your, the creative team, in
the team that?
Wayne Barringer (05:06):
I inherited.
Kyla Cofer (05:08):
Okay, which was about?
Wayne Barringer (05:09):
300 people, roughly 300.
Kyla Cofer (05:11):
300 people.
They are not happy in theirjobs.
Wayne Barringer (05:15):
They are not happy.
Kyla Cofer (05:16):
And this is the team that you've just come to take
on.
Did you know that when you tookthe position, I did.
Wayne Barringer (05:20):
I sort of got myself into the job.
My communications role was forone of the top executives at
Boeing and he assigned me aproject and he said, Wayne, we
can't screw this up.
So what did I do?
I went to our in-house agencyto partner and help create this
brochure.
That was a big deal at the time.
First, some internal consobjectives that executive had.
I was new to the company.
(05:41):
I thought that was the rightthing to do.
It was except being an agencyguy and now being a client of
the in-house agency.
It was an eye-openingexperience about what was going
on over there.
So I took it by myself to tryand constructively go to the
director of that department.
At the time she was new.
I said, hey, I love 30 minutes,I've been to agencies.
I just want to share some bestpractices that might help your
(06:03):
team.
She said, if you're willing totalk, I'll give you all the time
that it takes.
Three hours later, in a fullnotebook and notes, she walked
out going.
Wow, I walked out going she'slistening, she's going to help
us get to a better place.
Six months later I got a joboffer to take that group over
and I told you the rest of theshort part of the story.
Kyla Cofer (06:22):
So you took that 52 percent and that dissatisfaction
and you completely turned thataround.
Wayne Barringer (06:28):
Yeah, so we did turn that around.
It was very challenging but atthe end of what we worked on in
that group, the employeesatisfaction was 90 percent.
Kyla Cofer (06:37):
That's significant.
That's not a small leap.
How long did it take you tomake that change?
Wayne Barringer (06:41):
Well, it's a really common question and the
answer sounds like a long time.
So that first employee surveyscore was in 2013.
The first time we got 90percent was 2018, so five years.
Kyla Cofer (06:52):
I don't think that sounds like a long time at all,
because making a change in aorganization that's that large
takes a lot of work, becauseyou're not just changing one
person's opinion, you're notjust firing the bad egg the
employee right, you're having tochange a complete culture and a
way of being, and changing itfrom 52 to 90 percent is a
significant difference.
(07:13):
How did you do that?
Wayne Barringer (07:15):
Yeah, it is a big difference, and you could
feel the difference in every way, and so could everybody there.
How did we do that?
The first thing we did so letme just say that sort of our
charter was hey, we've tried tofix this group for 20 years and
this is our last attempt.
So if you can't fix it, wayne,like we're done.
Because I was like hey, I'm justthe new guy here at Boeing,
(07:36):
like no, so I felt a little bitlike a scapegoat, but I ran
toward the gunfire, and so thefirst thing I noticed was we had
four leaders that were leadingthat group of 300, none of which
had had any agency experience,any other relevant marketing
experience outside of Boeing.
The things that they emphasizedand talked to their teams about
(07:57):
every day were not productive.
They were what they wereexpected to do from the leaders
they had at the time, but Icouldn't find a way to get those
leaders that were there turnedaround.
So the first thing we did aftersix months of kind of looking
at it, my boss and I, we letthose folks go.
Kyla Cofer (08:13):
But you didn't do that right away.
You did.
It said six months.
So in six months you kind ofyou were doing like an inventory
to figure out what was going onfirst.
Wayne Barringer (08:21):
That's right, yeah, so I'll back up even
further.
Great point One of the veryfirst things I did was scheduled
six 20 to 30 person sort oflistening sessions around the
country Because, as I mentioned,we had 12 different offices so
I couldn't go to all 12, but wewent to six of the biggest and
just got people together in agroup.
So it didn't turn into a one onone sort of gripe session, but
it was a group sort of I justwant to hear what's working,
(08:44):
what's not working, why isn't itworking, what are the clients
or stakeholders think, et cetera.
Got a tremendous amount ofhonesty through those sessions.
Almost everything that we woundup changing.
People said needed to change inthose sessions and people also
said in those sessions you'regoing to ruin this organization.
I don't know why you're evendoing this.
We always have leaders thatcome in and then they leave Just
(09:05):
really difficult things.
So they were eye opening aswell.
Kyla Cofer (09:10):
So you came in to do these listening sessions.
You're new in this role.
You're still kind of trying tofigure out what you're going to
do and how this is going to playout.
So you go and you're tryinglike tell me what's going on,
Let me get the overall bigpicture, and they tell you we
don't really want you here andyou're going to fail.
How did you respond to that?
Well, it was awesome.
Wayne Barringer (09:31):
Now I tell you I had never been in a situation
like that ever in my careerbecause I worked at ad agencies.
They are PR firms and they'rethe fun places, right.
It was, I think if I didn'thave the kind of support that I
had from my boss, it would havebeen much more sort of
debilitating is kind of thewrong word, but sort of just
like wait a minute, what have Idone here?
I certainly have those moments,but I had a knowing of what
(09:53):
needed to be done to fix this.
I just I did, and anybody who'slistening.
We all have those moments inlife, and for some they happen
more than others, where you havea situation and you just know
the right thing to do.
And I just had that knowingabout what to do with this group
.
My whole career before it hadbeen to prepare for, you know, a
master's degree in how greatcreative organizations can
function and it was prettyevident to me to see where the
(10:16):
dysfunction was, why it wasthere.
And then they all validatedthat in these listening sessions
.
And then I also get to see theinner workings of what was being
emphasized by the leaders on aday-to-day basis down into the
teams, and I knew that was nothelpful either.
So, yeah, it was scary, but Ialso had this knowing and I also
had support, and I just said,hey, I'm here and we're either
(10:39):
gonna sink or swim, and I'mgonna swim until I can't.
Kyla Cofer (10:43):
So so I'm just gonna go for it and try anyways, and
we're gonna just do this thing.
So you paid attention, youlistened, you realized that
those four top leaders needed togo, that it just wasn't going
to work.
Did you replace them?
What did you do once you letthose go which is hard to do,
let's just acknowledge that'shard to do.
It's to let people because youknow that affects them and it
affects everything.
(11:03):
That's a hard decision to make.
Wayne Barringer (11:05):
I've never told this story in public before.
But the day before I wassupposed to do that, I went to
my boss and said I can't do it.
Like, I want to figure out away to help these guys get
better.
And she put her arm around meand said Wayne, you know what
the right thing to do is.
We've had six months.
You're gonna do it, you'regonna have courage and we're
gonna do it together.
And it was the best thing ever,because and we help people
(11:28):
through similar journeys nowNone of the situations I've had
as the Jaro group founder andCEO, consulting clients, has
ever been quite what this was.
But there's always situationswhere you know somebody just
isn't the right fit.
You've tried to teach, you'vetried to coach, you've tried to
rehab and 99% of leaders justlet that fester.
(11:48):
Why?
For the same reason, I almostdid.
Well, I'm not comfortable, I'mgonna ruin their life.
I, I, I, I, I.
It's not about that.
It's about the other 296 peoplein your organization who are
being negatively affected by theway those folks are leading.
So I just am really gratefulfor my boss, Loretta, at the
time, who said no, you know whatthe right thing to do is.
(12:11):
You've been telling me, Wayne,for six months, we're gonna do
it.
Kyla Cofer (12:14):
Okay, so we made that decision, and then what
happened?
Wayne Barringer (12:17):
The next day we went on the journey of finding
the replacements.
I decided that I was going tohire a mix of people.
I wanted to find one person toreplace who had a really strong
art creative director in-housebackground.
I hired somebody from Disney.
I want to find somebody withagency experience of some sort
(12:37):
At an executive level.
We found somebody from Edelman.
I wanted to find somebody elsewho maybe wasn't as hard driving
or somebody who could kind ofglue us all together from a
personality perspective andmaybe their experience was a
variety of places.
It didn't matter.
Hire somebody just like thattoo.
So those three women wereabsolutely powerhouses.
I get a lot of opportunities todo things like this for change
(13:01):
in that group, but they reallydid it on a day-to-day basis.
They were so excited about thatopportunity, they bought into
that vision and that changedeverything.
Kyla Cofer (13:11):
Well.
So I'm glad you said that,because we talk about this a lot
at leadership school is thatthe leaders, we are the ones who
have that vision and bringother people along towards that
vision, and you have to getpeople to buy into it.
So the team that you hadbrought along this vision passed
that to these leaders, madesure you had the right leaders
in place who could be on boardwith that vision, and then
brought everybody else along theway.
(13:31):
You had quite impressive,significant results because of
this.
Wayne Barringer (13:37):
Yeah, it was the preeminent decision I think
that I made that we werefortunate enough to be able to
make and wound up, choosingexceptionally well, being
fortunate to have a greatcandidate pool for each of those
folks that we hired, and theycame in super excited.
They all started on the sameday and on that day we had a
two-day workshop, just the fourof us, and we mapped out the
(13:59):
road ahead, and then they wereable to go into their
organizations and see forthemselves and we made changes
based on their observations aswell, et cetera.
And then we just started goingdown the group and deciding what
managers below them were goingto be able to be on board with
the vision.
Gave them the vision, gave themtraining.
Some of them were, some of themweren't.
We just started basicallyrehabilitating the whole group
(14:22):
and we always and I love to hearwhat you think about this, Kyla
, too but if you're going torehab an organization, if an
organization is not performing,whether it's a football team or
a creative team or anything inbetween, the leader is
responsible.
It's the leader'sresponsibility.
It may not be their fault, butit is their responsibility.
And if it's your responsibility, if you're going to go assess
(14:46):
what the issues are veryobjectively and then go to work
at optimizing the strengths andneutralizing the kryptonite, and
if some of the kryptonite aresome individuals or a manager
that you've had for 10 or 15years, it's time to do that.
Kyla Cofer (15:00):
Well, I think it's important too how you said that
all the leaders were on the samepage, because you get a lot of
personalities when you have thatmany people that you're working
with and when you've got peoplewho that's their job is to lead
the organization.
If they're not on the same page, then all the time that you
could be spending on rebuildingand shaping an organization is
(15:22):
spent on just trying to getalong and trying to.
I don't know, leaders, we kindof get in fights, right.
We're fighting back and forthto each other, like no, my idea
is better.
No, my idea is the way to go.
No, we're going to do it thisway, and if you guys can't work
together in that, then there'sno success to be had.
Wayne Barringer (15:39):
Well, let me not give a false impression that
we had no fights.
You can imagine the dynamism ofthe moments.
It was very challenging theenvironment, the task, the day
to day, all of that.
And I didn't hire wall floppers.
So these were strong, smart,opinionated, energetic women
(15:59):
that were; they just happened tobe women, they were on board as
well.
So we had disagreements and wecame together and we made that
place a much more fulfillingplace to be.
Kyla Cofer (16:10):
Because you knew your vision right.
So the disagreements you knewwhere you were going.
And so when people disagree atthat level, it's because they're
passionate about it and they'reexcited about that vision, and
they have different ways ofgoing, but ultimately it's that
goal that you're working towardsand that goal guides you and
directs you.
Wayne Barringer (16:30):
Absolutely right.
We had disagreements on the how.
We never disagreed on the why.
So the why was always clear,always visible and always just
in the hearts of us andeverybody else.
That wound up kind of goingthrough that and making it
through that and making it thegreat place that it turned into.
That's awesome.
Kyla Cofer (16:49):
Well, let's shift a little bit.
I mean, I think you spent fiveyears there, so I feel like in
our short time here we couldtalk quite in depth about that,
the rest of that experience.
But I do want to shift becauseI want to hear a little bit more
about Mount Kilimanjaro and howthat is shaping the framework
that you are doing with Jaro,because you're doing some really
cool things.
So I want to tell our audienceabout that and how it can
support and help them in theirleadership journey as well.
Wayne Barringer (17:10):
Yeah, Thank you , I appreciate that.
So all of that angst was kindof we had sort of overcome and I
still went out of.
Coach was kind of coaching methrough parts of that.
And that coach took a group ofhis clients on a rock climbing
trip to Joshua Tree NationalPark and all we had to do was
get there and he set everythingelse up.
It was kind of a thank you forour work together.
(17:31):
And on the evening before wewere going to rock climb none of
us had ever rock climbed, bythe way he took us to dinner,
bought us a steak dinner.
The wine was flowing.
Right before we left he said ohhey, I want to show you a 15
minute slideshow.
I'm taking a group of people toMount Kilimanjaro in September
this was like February.
Do you guys want to go?
And we're like hell, yeah, wewant to go.
(17:52):
Of course, Nobody ever mountainclimbed, including me, Nothing
like that.
But we all said yes, in thespirit of the evening, We'll
come the next day.
And I was like what have I justagreed to?
I started looking up what MountKilimanjaro is and where it is
and how high it is and, by theway, it's in the middle of
Africa.
By the way, it's 19,300 andsomewhat feet.
(18:14):
By the way, oxygen gets thinnerwhen you go up and, by the way
you can probably hear, I haveairway vocal cord challenges.
My airway is about half of whatmost people's is, so like now
I'm like wait, I can't do this.
Now, where has that?
Or have you heard that beforefrom me?
Kyla Cofer (18:32):
You're not a huge fan of saying I can't do this
and listening to that voice, areyou?
That voice is?
Wayne Barringer (18:36):
just obnoxious, and I will say I've listened to
it.
Right, we all have, and itdoesn't turn out well most of
the time when you do.
So yeah, so we went on thattrip and, as I said, having gone
through the experience that Ijust described and having gone
through this physicalexperience, so many parallels,
(18:57):
the most amazing of which is theawesomeness that is when you
complete it.
All the struggle, all thechallenge evaporates because
it's so awesome to complete it.
That was just a great learning,one of the many great learnings
from climbing that mountain.
Kyla Cofer (19:15):
You made the top.
Wayne Barringer (19:16):
We were the first group that our guide had
taken in 23 trips where alleight of us made it to the top
and to the bottom.
Kyla Cofer (19:24):
Yeah, that's amazing .
Congratulations, that's a hugeaccomplishment.
You said you did it with yourson.
Wayne Barringer (19:30):
My oldest son went.
My youngest son was juststarting his freshman year of
college.
He and we sort of decidedtaking the first three weeks of
school off.
In retrospect I would have hadhim go, but he was in that dad
mode and so whatever.
Then I emailed 35 of my friendssaid, hey, going on this trip?
One guy from that group decidedto go.
(19:50):
Then somebody else from work'shusband also wanted to go, whom
I didn't know but now is a verygood friend.
Then there were four otherpeople that were on that rock
climbing trip.
That I really didn't know verywell.
Kyla Cofer (20:03):
Hey leaders, have you ever considered starting
your very own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience in creating
this leadership school podcast.
I have grown my business, Ihave learned, exponentially.
I've had a ton of fun and myconfidence level has increased
10 fold by continuing to show upand put on a really great show.
(20:28):
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self doubt, would
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do is, right now, go to
podcasterschool.
net.
That's podcasterschool.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
(20:48):
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule a call with me and
let's check.
I want to hear about what yourpotential ideas are and what
would make you interested instarting a podcast.
It's such a fantastic way toreally increase your knowledge,
your business and really getyourself out into the world.
Take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
(21:09):
get started on your very ownshow.
Well, what an experience.
How does that affect whatyou're doing now?
I mean, you named your businessafter this.
Now you're doing consulting.
You're no longer at Boeing,you're doing the coaching and
the consulting, which is reallyinteresting.
I find a lot of most leadersare doing that.
You go through the ranks andthen you get to a point where
you're like I'm going to teachother people how to do this.
(21:29):
Tell me about what that lookslike and how your experiences
are shaping that.
Wayne Barringer (21:35):
I think the biggest thing that I started to
realize is all the fear that Ihad about that Boeing experience
and all the fear that I hadabout Kilimanjaro, like we just
talked about, is just not worthlistening to.
Here's the main point.
Everybody not everybody, many,many leaders have the same fear
maybe not at the level ofintensity that I did about
transforming that Boeingorganization, and so they avoid
(21:57):
it.
They don't do it and they don'thave leaders, like I did that
say no, I'm going to be therewith you, we're going to do it
together.
Also, 99.5% of the people onthis planet do not climb Mount
Kilimanjaro.
Why?
For whatever reason, they can't, or they legitimately can't
afford it, or they can't takethe time, or all those things
can be overcome.
The thing I learned about MountKilimanjaro is if I can climb
(22:19):
that mountain with thechallenges that I just have and
I'm fine with those things,they're just part of me.
Anybody can climb it.
And the same is true withorganizational transformation.
If I was able to do what we didat Boeing, anybody can do it.
So the parallels are reallyreally tight.
One of them is sort ofemotional and intellectual and
(22:39):
the other one is physical, butthey're both some of the same
premises.
One of the most powerful partsof the Kilimanjaro experience
and it's why we renamed mycompany, Jaro, Jaro Group is as
daunting as it was and asplanful as we made our training.
We would have never made itwithout the guides that guided
us up that mountain.
And it's not just hey, here'syour guide plan, follow it and
(23:03):
get to the top.
It was day four.
I blacked out, I didn't knowwhere I was.
Probably, was dehydrated a bitat 15,000 feet, and my guide
showed up in front of me andtook the backpack from my back
and put it on his back and saidfollow my footsteps, don't
meander, and we'll get back tocamp.
(23:23):
And that's all I had to do.
And three hours later I wasback at camp and three days
later I was on the top offreaking Africa.
It was fantastic.
That's what we try to do whenwe work with clients.
It's not about benchmarkingreports and giant PowerPoint
slide decks.
It's about we're going to workthe plan with you.
We're going to help youovercome your fear.
(23:43):
We're going to help you get towhere you said you want to go.
We're going to be with youevery step of the way.
And I just think the synergiesand everything about it are so
parallel.
That's why we changed the name.
Kyla Cofer (23:53):
First of all, that's extremely powerful, and I love
the correlation to the mentalmountains that we climb and the
literal mountain that youclimbed and thinking about,
especially for young leaders,for entrepreneurs, small
business owners, for people whoare really trying to grow to
climb that corporate ladder.
Think about it as terms ofladder, but the corporate
(24:15):
mountain really trying to getthere, or even just our lives.
I mean, come on, this is in2023, we have a lot piled on top
of us.
We've just came through apandemic.
That is, though it's officiallyover, it's not really over for
some people, and you've got aneconomy that's struggling,
housing markets going crazy.
I mean, sometimes just gettingup and going through your day
(24:38):
feels like a mountain to climb,and when you're trying to
improve yourself, betteryourself, go forward and meet
these goals that you have, theyare mountains that we climb, and
to hear you say that if I cando it, anybody can do it.
I've heard so many leaders saythis, and it's hard when you
haven't done it to believe it.
It's hard to go well, that'seasy for them to say.
(25:00):
We say well, that's easier forthem to say because they've done
it, or but yeah, but they haveall these experiences and all
these resources that I don'thave.
But you didn't.
You didn't know what you weredoing when you started Boeing.
You had never climbed amountain before.
You followed people who couldteach you and lead the way, and
you had that support and you'dwent forward anyways, and you
tried.
Wayne Barringer (25:19):
Yeah, I totally agree.
And there's things in my lifenow that I'm scared of right or
I don't think I have the this,that or the other for it, and
that's why I just think thatthat guide experience on the
mountain and my boss, who puther arm around me, and the team
that I wound up forming, likeit's so important to have the
right group together that canhelp you when you're stuck, can
(25:42):
call you on your BS right, canhelp you through sort of getting
rid of that, that voice in yourhead that stalls you out.
It's just been so true for methat every time in my life when
that experience has presenteditself, that sort of
togetherness, it can pretty muchdo anything.
Kyla Cofer (26:00):
And you really can.
It feels it can feel impossible.
It can feel daunting,especially when you're at the
bottom of the mountain lookingup, but when you're at the top
of the mountain looking backdown, you go.
I did this, I made it.
Wayne Barringer (26:13):
So the day that we got the employee survey back
that was 90%.
I almost didn't believe it,just like the day that we hiked
all night to the top.
So the last night, Summit Nightis what it's called, it gets to
the top at dawn, at sunrise,and to look over that, basically
the whole eastern part of theAfrican continent, from 19,000
feet and see the orange and redand yellow, I couldn't believe
(26:36):
it.
You know, I told my wife likeI'm crying up here, like but not
I can call her up there.
But when I got down I wascrying like she's like yeah,
because you're on a mountain inthe middle of Africa, man, like
so it just hits you in ways thatyou can't anticipate that are
so fantastic.
And again it's a similarparallel.
So I would just say don't notdo it because you're not sure if
the rewards are gonna be goodenough.
(26:57):
Like the journey's well worthit and the rewards, if you do
achieve it, are beyond.
Kyla Cofer (27:03):
The journey is worth it.
It really is.
Even if you hadn't made it tothe top like that which you said
not everybody does like,there's something in that
journey and in the doing that wegrow and become stronger and
become more into who we're meantto be, and that's really
amazing.
When people are working withyou with the JARO group, you've
mentioned to me previously thatyou have a five step framework.
Can you walk us through?
I think you've kind of did italready, but can you tell us the
(27:25):
step by step, your five stepframework and what that looks
like?
Wayne Barringer (27:28):
Yeah, you bet.
So we work on organizationalchange and the whole idea is how
do you improve if you want torather improve your team's
efficiency, impact and joy andfulfillment?
We've got a recipe that we made, all the mistakes and some of
the successes for sure,perfecting it, Boeing and all my
(27:48):
previous experience and thingsthat I gather and stuff like
that.
Usually, when groups callconsultants like me or others,
if they're not looking just forone on one coaching, if they're
looking for organizational stuff, they often say our process is
broken, we have a processproblem or gosh, can you help us
implement this technology toolthat will fix all of our
(28:09):
problems?
The SaaS companies are verygood at marketing their tools is
the easy button right, just pay, you know, whatever the monthly
subscription is for 1000 seatsand abracadabra, everything's
going to be great.
Well, guess what?
There are more SaaS tools onthe shelf, particularly in
creative organizations in the US, and there are more process
(28:31):
maps that are sitting on theshelf not being utilized.
Why?
Because those two pieces arethe most frequently asked to
solve, but when you implementthem, all they do is exacerbate
or shine a light on the problemsthat we consider to be upstream
from that.
So we have a five step process.
Those are the last two processtools.
(28:52):
The first part of the process islike we talked about a minute
ago at Boeing what is the NorthStar?
What is the why, what is thepurpose of your organization,
why does it exist and what is itsupposed to be doing for the
company?
If you can get clear on thatand articulate that with some
inspiration and create a groupof advocates, not just people
(29:14):
who understand, advocates forthat North Star, that's the
first step.
If you can't do it, don't doanything else, because if you
don't have that, you don't haveair cover above and you don't
have people that are relevant toyou getting the job done on
your site.
So what's the strategy?
What's the North Star?
The second step is what is theorg structure without people's
(29:34):
names?
What roles in an org structuredo you need to fulfill that
North Star?
Not in job description terms,but almost.
Like what's the two sentencerole?
And again, no names.
You're not allowed to put namesat this stage, because what I
did, what everybody does, isthey go.
Oh well, Susie will be greatfor this role.
Well, Susie doesn't have anyexperience in that role, right?
(29:57):
How do we know Susie?
Let's put it through a filter.
So what structuring rolesfulfill that North Star?
Step three talent.
Who is the best talent that youcan imagine for these roles?
Then process that talent thatyou put in place should define
what the processes are.
And then tools Based on theprocess.
(30:17):
Here's the tools that you needto help that system run Five
steps.
I'll tell anybody all the stepsfor it.
They want to do it themselvesGreat.
What I'm here to tell you isdoing it yourself.
If you've ever done a homerepair by yourself, you always
call a handyman after you openup the wall on go what have I
done?
Kyla Cofer (30:35):
Well, it's just like the mountain, right?
You could tell me all the stepsI need to climb Mount
Kilimanjaro.
But standing right there on thebottom of the mountain, even if
I know all the steps and knowthe path, it's still going to be
pretty hard to do.
It would be really great tohave someone who's done it
before, especially if somethinggoes wrong.
Wayne Barringer (30:51):
And most people are less likely to take that
first step when they're standingat the bottom of a mountain
like Kilimanjaro if they don'thave somebody with a plan, if
somebody they know is gonnaguide them up.
In fact, this is interestingit's in their sync sort of flip
corollary between these Jarothings and the Kilimanjaro and
the consulting.
80% of corporate change effortsorganizationally fail.
(31:13):
You can look it up.
80%.
Fast Company and HarvardBusiness Review, I think, is the
first place I saw that stat.
I've seen it as high as 90 andas low as 70.
So I use 80, because that's thetwo sort of averages, right?
About 75% of people that tryKilimanjaro make it.
So we can" do corporate changein the US.
(31:35):
80% of the time it fails, but80% of people that try
Kilimanjaro make it.
What's the difference?
There's a law in Tanzania whereif you're climbing that mountain
you have to go with a certifiedofficial guide.
You can't do it on your own.
Why?
Because Tanzania would havedeath and failure and human
tragedy, because it's seven dayswithout water and food and all
(31:57):
the things.
So I just think that's a veryinteresting opposition corollary
.
If you want to try it yourself,I'll give you all the answers,
happily, because some people cando it.
I'm not saying nobody can do it, but boy, does it change the
game when you've got some of youwho knows what they're doing,
who's been there and who'scommitted to your safety and
your success.
And that's what we try to do.
Kyla Cofer (32:19):
Well, and that's what we all tried to do when we
went to college right, we wentto college because there were
people there who could teach usthe skills, because they'd done
them or assumed or had learnedto do them, and we could learn
from those people.
And that's what a college degreeis meant to do is to teach you,
or an apprenticeship, aninternship, any type of
education that we pursued, it'sbecause we're trying to learn
(32:41):
from people who've done it andso that we can go and do it
ourselves.
And at this point in the historyof the world, there is so much
knowledge to be had and we canlearn how to do everything.
And for us, our own experiencewe might not have had the
experiences of learning how todo everything, but we'll figure
it out and then it'll be ourturn to share that and to be the
(33:04):
guide and to teach other people, which is what you're doing and
which so many leaders do, andI'm just so grateful for,
because, I mean, that's whatwe've all had to learn that way,
and how many of us had thoughtthat things were impossible
until someone told us it wasn't.
You know how many of us thoughtthat the voice that you have
listened to when you said it wastoo hard and you're gonna
listen to that voice saying youcan't do it.
I've listened to that voice somany times.
(33:25):
We've all like you said andit's way easier to listen to
that voice when we don't havesomeone telling us that it's
wrong.
Wayne Barringer (33:31):
Yeah, it's exceptionally easy to listen to
that voice because it tends tocause us to not do things, and
not doing things is inherentlyeasy.
Easier sometimes, I'll tell you, like climate, mount Kilmawyer
was not a picnic, right.
You're sleeping on the dirt,it's 40 degrees or less.
It's you know all the thingsthat you can imagine sleeping on
a mountain in Africa.
(33:52):
And we had help, like we hadguys that were incredible out
when it's carry stuff andbringing water, because you just
can't one person can't carryenough water for a week, and
then food and all that stuff.
So, to have somebody to helpyou do something, do the right
things, like you said, who'sbeen there, who's seen it and
knows you can do it, itcompletely changes the success
(34:13):
ratios, for sure.
Kyla Cofer (34:14):
Well, yeah, Wayne, this has been such a great
conversation and I would love tocontinue, but we need to wrap
up.
So is there anything you wannamake that you feel like may have
been left out, or wanna makesure that our listeners hear any
final pieces of wisdom?
I?
Wayne Barringer (34:27):
just think that , as I and you probably see this
too talk to people in corporateAmerica today, there is so much
suffering.
You alluded to COVID and we'restill kind of dealing with the
after effects of that.
I think it's accelerated, butit was there before.
It's just not necessary.
It doesn't have to be that wayand the solutions are as clear
as what we've talked about today.
(34:48):
Not easy, but they're notcomplex.
We just create complexities bylistening to all the voices.
So if there's one thing I wannaencourage people, it's if
you're a leader, yourresponsibility it's to lead your
team somewhere fantastic.
It's not just to endure everyday.
It's not just to open up youremail, have a zero in box, go to
all your meetings and go homeand plop on the couch.
(35:11):
That's not your role, and itcan be more uplifting, more
energizing to actually go dowhat you were meant to do and
bring your team forward.
So I'll stop there, but that'swhat I really leave everyone
with.
Kyla Cofer (35:23):
Absolutely, and I haven't been to church in a
while, but that sounded like asermon.
I'm loving this.
It was great, Wayne.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timeand your expertise and just
sharing your stories.
It's just really inspiring andI'm just really grateful and
honored to hear and share yourstory with you, thank you.
Wayne Barringer (35:41):
Gratitude and honor is mine.
Thank you, Kyla, it's beenfantastic and fun.
Kyla Cofer (35:47):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews is over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed, more casual
(36:09):
conversation.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out atpatreoncom slash leadership
school and for $6.50 a month youcan support this podcast.
(36:34):
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(36:54):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreoncom
slash leadership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions,and you'll get some bonus
content over there, so be sureto go check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(37:15):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
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