August 10, 2023 • 43 mins
Can you imagine turning a struggling local music festival into a half-billion-dollar enterprise? That's the compelling story of our guest today, Daniel Sims, a consultant, author, and a true leader in developing funding systems. Raised in Helena, Arkansas, Daniel’s journey from his modest roots in the nonprofit world to his current work in philanthropy and organizational change is nothing short of inspirational. He gives us an in-depth view of his innovative Allen Sims Transformational Model, a tool designed to revamp systems in organizations, making them more mission-focused and revenue generating.
Daniel recounts the gripping tale of how he breathed new life into a local music festival in Helena, transforming it from a floundering event into a successful enterprise. This feat not only testifies to Daniel's uncanny ability to understand community needs but also his talent for building equitable strong relationships for fundraising. He also emphasizes the significance of creating safe, equitable community programs, and the need for collecting data and engaging in frank dialogues with community members to ensure the right use of funds.
We wrap up by discussing the important, and often tricky, issue of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Daniel shares his thoughts on Gallup's Inclusion Index and why he believes it's a must for organizations. If you've ever thought about how you could bring about transformation and positive change in your organization or community, this episode is a goldmine of practical advice and inspiring examples. It's a revealing exploration of the transformative power of community engagement and organizational change. So join us, and let's learn together.
Daniel Sims is a highly accomplished consultant, speaker, trainer, researcher, and author who has dedicated his career to promoting equity and social justice. He is a recipient of numerous awards and has an unparalleled ability to optimize organizational culture, increase fundraising capacity, and create strategic cultures with a JEDI (justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion) lens. Sims hails from a small, impoverished area in the Arkansas Delta, and he uses his upbringing as a guide to promote justice-led advocacy for all.
Sims is an influential figure with an unwavering commitment to equity, and he has a remarkable track record of driving transformative systemic change in philanthropic, corporate, and social landscapes. He delivers captivating speeches that inspire action towards creating a more just and equitable world. Daniel has trained and spoken at multiple conferences and events, and his work has been featured on various podcasts, including Lead with Levity, Human Capital Innovations (HCI), and Better Humans at Work. Outside of work, Sims enjoys trivia (he even competed on Jeopardy!), playing Magic: The Gathering, and watching Lucy Worsley documentaries. He
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Daniel Sims (00:01):
In 2018, I believe, corporations invested roughly
$19 billion in DEI initiatives,many of which are filtered
through HR or people managementdepartments or organizations, or
they bring in consultants withHR lenses.
Kyla Cofer (00:24):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal (00:38):
Teach you how to be an extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
I'm privileged to introduceDaniel Sims today.
Daniel is a consultant, author,a leader in developing funding
(00:59):
systems.
He talks a lot about how tocreate better systems in our
organizations, in our companies,in our workplace cultures, so
that we can be more missionfocused and ultimately bring
more money into yourorganization.
So how does he do that?
He uses his Allen Simstransformational model, a model
that he has created through hisresearch and how to build
(01:21):
transformational systems thatcan really advance your mission.
So he's going to tell us allabout that today.
Give us some really practicaltools on what that looks like
and how to actually do that.
So thanks so much, Daniel, forjoining me.
I'm so grateful to have youhere on the Leadership School
Podcast.
I'm just really honored to haveyou here and I'm just so
excited to have thisconversation.
So can you maybe tell us alittle bit about your story and
(01:42):
how you got here and kick us off?
Daniel Sims (01:44):
Absolutely.
Thanks, Kyla, for having me.
It is really exciting to behere and be able to share some
space with you for the nextlittle while.
So I'm from or live in Madison,Wisconsin, by way of Helena,
Arkansas.
So small town of just under10,000 people about 70 miles
southwest of Memphis.
(02:05):
That is really, you know, kindof at the root of who I am as a
person, learning about what itmeans to advocate for others,
what it means to be part of agroup working towards, you know,
transforming a community wherepeople are in need.
So Helena is in the ArkansasMississippi River Delta area,
(02:26):
one of the poorest areas in theworld and certainly in the
country, and so a lot of myexperience growing up was
navigating the social nonprofitworld, whether it's a food
pantry or a youth center orsomething around violence or
drug prevention, you know reallyformed the foundation of my
(02:46):
life and led to what I do now inJedi and organizational change,
philanthropy, kind of all theareas I've had a chance to touch
down in over the last 20 years.
But I think in 2003, it was kindof a pivotal year for me.
I was working with a youthtobacco coalition in our town
because we had a super high rateof teen tobacco use at the time
(03:09):
and got a chance to write myfirst grant supporting the staff
members there, and it was atthat point I realized this is
the work I want to do.
I don't know how you do it, Idon't know what the path is, but
I want to end up here doingthings that I know are going to
change the trajectory ofpeople's lives, and so the 20
years since has given me anopportunity to see that manifest
(03:32):
in a number of different spaces.
And so at this point in mycareer and in my life, it's
important for me to be able toshare that story through
multiple lenses, but also givingpeople the spirit of the story
by figuring out how that affectsthe trajectory of organizations
and how we think and how wehave conversations with one
another.
And so it's definitely almost afull circle moment being here
(03:57):
now thinking about everythingthat's happened in my life to
get me to a space where I cannow share and be a resource and
hopefully an inspiration forsomeone who's trying to find
their path, find their waytowards changing the world in
the way that fits the visionthat they've been given.
And so, you know, I'm happy toshare more about that as we kind
(04:18):
of navigate this conversation.
Kyla Cofer (04:20):
You grew up in Helena, Arkansas really
impoverished area, and thenonprofit world was really big
there because it was a lot oftrying to help the disadvantaged
in your low income area and soyou kind of grew up in that in
your career, started growinginto that nonprofit space.
But in 20 years ago that kindof changed in that youth group
that you were in where youreally helped people learn how
(04:41):
to be better advocates, and thatjust kind of propelled you into
what you're doing right now.
Tell me more about, then, whatyou're doing right now.
I would love to hear a littlebit more specifically like what
has that turned into today?
Daniel Sims (04:52):
So I would say that it really started to look more
like my current work in 2009.
So I returned home aftercollege and I had some
challenges in college.
So returned home for a while in2009, and kind of fell into an
opportunity to help a localmusic festival that happens in
Helena in early October eachyear.
(05:14):
It started in the mid 80s,actually a few months before I
was born, started on the back ofa truck to honor and really
highlight the importance ofblues music to the Delta and
particularly to Helena, becauseit's played a very major role in
the formation and thepropagation of blues music in
America and around the world.
And so I ended up at a cityadvertising and promotion
(05:38):
commission meetings, A&PCommission meeting, where the
treasurer for this event wasthere asking for community
support from what's known inHelena as the hamburger tax, so
the tourism tax that's thencollected to promote things like
the festival and other kind ofhistorical sites around Helena
that talk about the blues or theCivil War or what have you.
(06:00):
And they said they needed helpwith grants and so, having had
that experience a few yearsprior, I kind of put my hand up
and said, yeah, I'm happy tohelp with that.
But then, as I got deeper anddeeper into the process, I
realized that philanthropy wasan issue, but not the issue.
Because typically in this workthere are people that are really
passionate about a mission,have a clear idea, have the
(06:25):
emotional and mental fortitudeto get the mission done, but
then when it's time to raise themoney, it takes a certain skill
set or, borrowing from LiamNeeson it takes a very
particular set of skills to beeffective and go out and be able
to raise the money that youneed to make that vision come to
fruition.
So I ended up slowly but surelybecoming a leader of putting
(06:48):
this event on.
That had had a number ofchallenges before I came home,
but mostly was having socialissues.
So blues music is by and largea black art form.
It was formed in blackcommunities and the town I grew
up in is over 70% black, but thefestival was being run by a
team that was 95% white andwasn't necessarily connecting
(07:12):
effectively with the blackcommunity in town.
Really for three things howdoes the programming affect you?
Because at one point over200,000 people were coming to
our small town each year forthis event, which was kind of
the event for business ownersand that really wanted to make
their money for the year.
They'd be open to have food ordo have lodging or whatever, but
(07:34):
they were largely left out ofthat conversation and so, as an
extension, it became how do wecreate equity in how we choose
vendors and how people are beinginvolved in the planning
process, but also make this thebusiness that it is and ensure
that it's profitable, movingforward?
And so we worked in partnership,through community conversations
(07:56):
and bringing people in, to helpus figure out a path to that,
which included paid tickets forcertain stage areas for the
first time, because this hasbeen a free festival this whole
time, with the exception ofreceiving a portion of proceeds
from vendor sales and so we wereable to modernize the business
model, build a bridge to bringpeople back in and then turn a
(08:21):
organization that was severelyin the red to a little over $4
million in the black and under ayear, and that's really where
it all started to stringtogether.
We need people to feel safe, tofeel heard, and couple that with
philanthropic intent becausethere are people that are
watching for that to really puta fire under a vision and ensure
(08:44):
that it's really effectivelyhelping the people that are most
affected by the outcomes.
And so that then was kind ofthe propeller or the propulsion
point, I'd say, for what I'mdoing now and identifying in
organizations who's at the table, who's not at the table, why
aren't they at the table and howdo we recreate the wheel, where
(09:06):
necessary, to break down thosebarriers and keep perpetual
iterative change at the centerof how we do business and how we
connect with one another?
Kyla Cofer (09:17):
I'm impressed and in awe of that number that you
just mentioned, because you saidfour million.
Is that what you said, fourmillion?
Daniel Sims (09:24):
I did, I did.
Kyla Cofer (09:26):
That's huge, that's a big change.
Daniel Sims (09:29):
I had a chance to do a little bit more of that
over the years.
Currently that's like about 15years in I've helped raise just
under half a billion dollarsacross the organizations I've
worked with through this timeand I found it's pretty, not
that it's simple, buildingrelationships and leveraging
that to make philanthropicimpact is simple.
(09:50):
I enjoyed that part.
But there's really a science tohow we cultivate and build
those relationships and reallyalign the potential for that
impact with real issues and realproblems.
And I find that particularexperience unique because we
were able to make that veryperfect, general, almost once in
(10:11):
a generation alignment in thatarea for what it needed at the
time to keep this thing goingand to keep its legacy alive.
Kyla Cofer (10:19):
You said that there were some things that made the
difference there because youwere being more intentional
about certain things.
Can you repeat what you hadsaid there?
I want to go a little bitfurther into that.
Daniel Sims (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that we were able toproperly align the philanthropic
interest of funders, individualdonors, with real world
problems that they could see.
And that's not always easy,particularly when you are
raising money at that higherlevel from, say, the Walton
(10:48):
Foundation or the RockefellerFoundation, those large scale
funders that are somewhatremoved from the ground level of
what's taking place in thecommunities that they partner
with, and we had an opportunityto bring those people directly
into the environment.
And not to say that thatdoesn't work for other types of
organizations or for fundraisingin general, but we found that
(11:10):
for this particular organizationto turn its corner, that sort
of visceral impact was necessaryto make the difference.
Kyla Cofer (11:21):
So this is something that you are also working to
kind of replicate, right it'sbecause it matters and the
people that you serve, andseeing what the actual needs are
, and finding those out andintegrating those with the money
givers, right where the moneyis coming from, and finding ways
to integrate that all thattogether.
So where do you start with that?
I mean, how do you start toreally to break that down in a
way that's really helpful,because I think this is really
(11:42):
important when we talk about, Imean, not just fundraising, but
just the communities that weserve overall and even in
business and our leadershiproles, because we're not finding
out like this is marketresearch 101, right.
If we're not finding outexactly what it is that people
want and we're just giving whatthey think they want, we're not
successful.
So that's kind of what you'retalking about.
Daniel Sims (12:02):
Absolutely, and I think that what happens 99% of
the time in philanthropy is thatwe assume that we understand
the best interest of people thatwe serve, or people that we
want to serve, without everhaving had conversations with
them.
As a result, when we hear termslike, say, donor-centric
(12:25):
fundraising and also now, on theother side of that,
community-centric fundraising,these opposing schools of
thought really provide a starkview, I think, in some regards,
of how the community is investedand involved in its
transformation and how outsideinfluence, no matter how good
the intention, transformscommunities anathema to the
(12:46):
needs and the trajectory of thepeople who are living there and
are experienced in doing lifethere.
And so that's really thebeginning.
If I want to do a thing as aprogram leader, as a nonprofit
leader, as a business leader, Ineed to understand how the end
user is going to be able toutilize, experience, have their
(13:07):
life transformed by whateverthing A or thing B is, and that
takes a lot more work andintention, and that's why a lot
of organizations just don't doit or they don't do it as
effectively or as intentionallyas they should.
But it's very much like we hearin something from Stephen Covey
.
You know, we begin with the endin mind and when we do that,
(13:28):
thinking very outside of the boxabout how we're bringing people
in to say we're not just hereto give you a thing or give you
something we think you need.
We're here because we want toco-create a community that makes
sense for you and that is safefor you and that is giving you
the things you need to live agood life, whatever that means
(13:49):
for them.
And so that's the hardest partand it takes the most work.
And then you can add in theother traditional pieces: Who
are our donors?
What's the research?
How are we cultivating them?
How do we get them to that endgift?
But I have found that's reallybeen the difference maker in my
own work.
Is that, as a consultant, as anin-house fundraising or
(14:10):
development officer, as I'vebeen over the years, that's what
I need to figure out.
When one of my last roles, I wasworking at the University of
Wisconsin Foundation in theCollege of Engineering and we
had several projects going on,but one in particular in the
department I worked with wascreating an endowed chair for
this department that was reallyfocused on ethics and
(14:32):
engineering, but also indiversifying the field and
creating safe spaces to do that.
And so I had the opportunity tohave conversations with
students because I needed tounderstand, certainly from an
undergrad, but then also from agraduate perspective, because I
had come in in a time afterthere had been some very highly
publicized stories about toxiccultures in graduate programs in
(14:58):
the College of Engineering,particularly in the department
that I was working with, and sounderstanding what safety meant
for them and understanding whatthis money funneled through a
leader could do for them helpedme to have, you know, key or
ideal conversations then withthe particular donors we wanted
to target.
Because I knew then what neededto be co-created in a way that
(15:22):
made sense and was endorsed bypeople that were going to be
living in it on a day-to-daybasis.
Kyla Cofer (15:29):
How are you gathering this data?
Are you doing surveys?
Are you just asking people?
Are you looking at broadercommunities?
I mean, this is some datagathering, and how do you get
people to be honest in the datathat you're asking of them and
the questions that you're askingof them?
Daniel Sims (15:46):
Absolutely.
I would say in fundraising workit's really perpetual thing.
It's not so much a survey as itis building up the human
capital to have those honestconversations.
And so in development you knowyou don't have the time
necessarily to do a full-onenvironmental scan because you
need to raise the money for thething, but you also need to
(16:07):
raise the money in the right wayfor the thing.
And so it's a very delicatebalancing act of continuing to
do the work of engaging withdonors and bringing in funds to
fund this vision, but reallybeing cognizant of how we're
spending the rest of our time incommunity with people and being
intentional.
(16:27):
And sometimes that's a post-9 to5 thing.
If I'm working with donors from9 to 5, but it's a youth program
that meets from 6 to 8, Ishould probably hang out from 6
to 8 a couple of days a week toget to know the kids that are
coming in to do dance or to playa sport or to get their
homework done or to generallyjust be and feel safe in the
neighborhood that they live inor the space that they inhabit.
(16:50):
And so that's really the easiestway to do it fundraising, or at
least in my day-to-dayfundraising work, but in general
consulting and the work thatI'm doing now in research, there
are a couple of ways to goabout it and it's certainly
still all we're doing in trust.
But it really begins then withcreating safe, sanitary spaces
(17:11):
where this data can be gatheredand knowing how to both
aggregate it properly buteffectively disaggregate it,
when you are getting similarstories about toxic culture, in
competent leadership, a barrierto entry for promotion, a lack
of attention to economic justiceand pay equity, and so a lot of
(17:35):
that then comes from justproviding space through
conversation, also making surethat survey-driven tools that we
are using aren't leading peopleplaces, and so that takes a lot
more work to figure out how weuse our tools that are not
non-bias, inherent, to make surethat we are getting the data
that we want and then analyzingit in a way that is taking as
(17:58):
much of our bias out of how wethen write out that roadmap for
how they make those improvementsand hope that makes sense.
Kyla Cofer (18:06):
Well, what I'm hearing is that it's really kind
of like a circle and you cantell me if I'm wrong here,
because what I'm understandingis we're talking about raising
money to keep programs andresources going right,
fundraising, leading the waythere.
But then, in order to do that,we need to first have the safe
workplaces, so that we can raisethe money to create more safe
(18:28):
workplaces and or safe places,and not just workplaces, but the
safe places and safe programsand things that we're creating.
And in order to create the safeplaces, we also have to have
justice, equity, diversity,inclusion.
We have all of those things inplace and they kind of all play
off of each other and just keepgoing around and you're
hopefully.
Maybe not a circle, but maybemore of like upwards by where
(18:50):
we're starting and we're kind ofputting all these things
together and we're gettingbetter at it.
We're going up in the level andwe're getting better at it.
Moving up a level is that kindof what you're talking about.
Daniel Sims (18:59):
So I would describe it as a circle.
So the research model and themethodology model that I use is
a circle because it signifiesthat there is a perpetual level
of attention that has to be donefor transformation.
And so in all the work that wedo and what called the Allen
Sims gen transformation model is, we're discovering where these
(19:19):
gaps are.
Through those conversations andthrough other data collection
methods, we are creating thensafe spaces to dig into that
data, figure out where thespecific organizational level
and personal level opportunitiesfor growth exist.
We look at the systems changethat needs to happen
simultaneous to thistransformation in person to
(19:39):
person knowledge, and then we'rere evaluating what's happening.
But as that's going on in yourlearning new information,
speaking to that upwards spiral,it is always allowing you to
surface and examine your pointin time, set of beliefs and
principles and how that isjuxtaposed to this
(19:59):
transformationalend game that's been established
or co created with anorganization and that goes for
philanthropic organization or afor profit corporation, is that
we all want to be in a placewhere, ultimately, we are
bringing strategy to a keyintersection with innovation, to
(20:20):
do good work and to use systemsto drive positive change, but I
think for a lot of groups itjust comes down to oh, we don't
know how to do it or we don'thave the money to do it, or
something, something, something.
And so we like to use that todisabuse people of the notions
that certain aspects oftransformational or
organizational change can'thappen if resources are present,
(20:44):
for example, there are a lot ofthings that can be brought to
the table to make that happen.
But I think to your question,it's kind of a combination of
those things, but ensuring thatpeople understand that this is a
long term iterative growthjourney that they're on.
Kyla Cofer (21:00):
Yeah, I'm glad that you said we don't know how, or
we don't have the money, andsometimes it feels overwhelming
right, so we just need to getthe money in the door, we just
need to get the programcontinuing to operate, we just
need to get the next day.
And sometimes it's hard to takethat step back and go okay, how
can this be even better?
How do we actually do this?
How do we create thistransformation that we're
(21:20):
looking for within ourorganization, within our company
?
So where do you start?
I mean, you mentioned the AlanSims transformational model.
Tell me exactly what that is.
And then I want to I'm curious,if we've got listeners here in
the audience who are leading theway, they're wanting safe,
equitable workplaces, they'rewanting to grow, they're wanting
to move forward.
So where do they start?
So that's two questions.
(21:40):
Let me back up question onewhat is the Alan sims
transformational model?
And then question two is how doyou actually start?
Hey leaders, have you everconsidered starting your very
own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience and creating
this leadership school podcast Ihave grown my business, I have
(22:02):
learned exponentially, I've hada ton of fun and my confidence
level has increased tenfold bycontinuing to show up and put on
a really great show.
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self doubt, would
(22:22):
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do isright now go to podcaster school
.
net.
That's podcaster school.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule call with me and let's
check.
So I want to hear about whatyour potential ideas are.
What would make you interestedin starting a podcast?
(22:43):
It's such a fantastic way toreally grow, increase your
knowledge, your business andreally get yourself out into the
world.
So take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
get started on your very ownshow.
Daniel Sims (23:00):
Absolutely so.
The Allison's Jeditransformation model is a
byproduct of my master'sresearch, so I hold a master's
public service from the ClintonSchool of Public Service, which
is part of the University ofArkansas and is attached to the
Clinton Presidential Library inLittle Rock, Arkansas, where I
lived for about a decade beforemoving to Wisconsin.
(23:22):
I decided that I wanted tofocus my research in community
philanthropy because a lot ofthe work I had done to that
point, particularly in theperiod starting in late 2014
after the death of Mike Brown inSt Louis really started to
focus on how does diversity andDEI or Jedi values affect the
(23:47):
operationalizing of the systemschange of how we do philanthropy
.
And then I was grown to how dowe operationalize how we do
multiple types of work across anumber of industries and sectors
.
But as I had conversations withroughly 70 nonprofit leaders,
both development officers, ceos,chief development officers,
(24:09):
everyday donors, high levelfunders and philanthropists from
around the world, three keythings became clear.
There are many organizationsaround the country that are
ready to invest in this kind ofwork.
In 2018, I believe,corporations invested roughly
$19 billion in DEI initiatives,many of which are filtered
(24:35):
through HR or people managementdepartments of organizations, or
they bring in consultants withHR lenses I don't have.
I don't come from an HRbackground.
Because of what I've been ableto unearth and to gather from my
pre-master's research I've beenworking with clients and
certainly in the interviews thatI got to have, in putting
(24:56):
together my thesis that peopleneed a clear path, no matter if
it's free.
If it's free work that'shappening within the
organization, if a consultant'scoming in, that they need to
understand what the veryspecifics path might be to help
them make a change.
For example, one area that Ispend a lot of time on in my
(25:19):
work today is looking at how weare identifying donors.
Many of our research tools inthe profession are used in a
very bias, inherent way, wheremost of our lists are probably
spitting out wealthy white menor white women or whoever
however, that are giving in whatwe consider traditional
(25:41):
philanthropic ways to auniversity, to a community
center, which doesn't take intoaccount how philanthropy is
realized in other non-whitecommunities, where the
assumption is black communitiesor Hispanic communities or Asian
communities may not bephilanthropic, but they are at a
much higher rate than mostother ethnic groups.
(26:04):
When you have an organizationand wants to figure that out, we
want to then look at how do wediscover what the point in time
starting point is, how do welook at how your systems can be
changed?
But how do we change the mindsof the people doing the research
?
Because a system can only dowhat you tell it or what you
allow it to do, and so thatsimultaneous wow, this is
(26:28):
transforming how I see, how Iunderstand thing A.
This is how I can technicallychange how I input thing A or
thing B into system C.
Then we're able to then have abaseline by which we can
evaluate.
All right, now we've seen thatthe number of non-white donors
in the pipeline has increased by40%.
(26:49):
Our level of engagement withblack donors ages X to X, has
increased sixfold with theaverage gift size of this.
And so those are the thingsthat help in philanthropy, and
they help in any field.
But being able to really showand demonstrate how gift sizes
change, how donor pools change,how it can change the trajectory
(27:13):
of research of donors and whoare our partners, both in cash
but also in non-cash giving waysthat are still advancing the
mission, that helps to open upeyes and usually brings more
leaders to the table, becausethat is a vantage point from
which they can understand howthe transformation should happen
(27:34):
.
And then you're bringing themalong with a journey, with the
iterative knowledge that you'reproviding them.
So then it makes more sensethat, oh, I'm not on a hill
looking on this thing.
I'm now in the work,co-creating, co-working with my
colleagues and with my team tokeep this moving forward,
because it has to, because it'svaluable, because these people
are valuable.
Kyla Cofer (27:55):
What I just heard from you is that by doing this
work that you're doing and usingthis model, focusing in these
ways and doing this researchupfront and getting to know the
way that this group of peoplethinks, you're taking
transformational, systemic Idon't know about systemic change
, but maybe the change of aculture or transformation of an
(28:15):
organization.
You're taking that timelinedown from 10, 20 years down to
like a few years, because changetakes so long.
Any type of big major change ora perspective shift, thinking
shift takes so long, but bydoing things this way you're
going to shorten that timebecause we know what it takes to
(28:36):
make that change happen.
You can do that and follow itmethodically.
Daniel Sims (28:41):
I think that's what I've always found most
fascinating about doing thiswork is that people, and really
with a lot of things in systemschange and organizational
change, people feel that thingsjust happen, especially in
smaller or mid-size shops wherethe goal is to just get the
(29:02):
thing done.
I understand it'll be so.
I've worked both as aconsultant and as a staffer in
those shops and the pressures ofkeeping things moving usually
are much higher than othercultural considerations more
often than not.
But they do exist.
They tend to exist in anoutsized manner compared to
other organizations.
(29:22):
So much of my work is focusedon building the business case
for why shops of that size,which make up the lion's share
of non-profits and in businessesin this country, need to take
that pause to figure out whatmakes the most sense for us, who
are the people we serve andwhere is our focus at this time.
(29:45):
We could still do the work, westill must do the work, but
there's an opportunity here todo it.
So that is still one of thegreat battles that is yet to be
decided in the workplace,largely because this is for the
first time we have fourgenerations of people in the
(30:07):
workforce and that is changingin this next 10 years.
But while we're here and whilethese conversations and debates
are happening, there are veryunique and interesting vantage
points from Gen Z to the boomersto Gen X and certainly to
millennials, about how do we goabout making these changes and
(30:29):
how do we bring people along.
From my perspective, in a waythat challenges beliefs in that.
But we're ahead of time and Ithink we talked about this at
one point earlier where we thinkabout the public square
generally as a place where wecan reason and have debates and
think about how we're movingforward.
(30:50):
That place is under attack andit's under attack in public as
we think about politics, andit's certainly under attack as
these conversations have takenhold in the workplaces of the
world over the last severalyears.
So that is also a keyconsideration, I think, as
organizations are starting that;is, how do we maintain the
(31:12):
space to work through our issueswith dealing with the issues?
That's an importantconversation and safe space to
be had, and most people don'ttalk about that and the need for
that, in addition to the workthat must take place to make the
changes.
Kyla Cofer (31:29):
Well, because it's hard, it takes a lot of effort
and it takes critical thinkingand it takes some I don't know
if patience is the right wordbut some peace building efforts.
It takes within yourself,within ourselves, and our
willingness to pursue thingsthat are hard and be intentional
and not give up, and that canbe really intimidating,
especially when you've got a lotof work to get done.
(31:49):
Okay, so we've got audience,we're listening.
Hearing you talk this soundsgreat and amazing.
What are the first three thingsyou want to tell somebody?
Where do we start?
What are the first three thingsthat they need to do and the
first questions that they needto ask or things that they need
to do to get really started inbuilding this process?
Daniel Sims (32:06):
Very good question, thank you, and I'm always
thinking about the answer I'llgive today will probably be
different in six months or in ayear, but you know, as my
baseline for for Jedi and I useJedi rather than DI or EDI or
DEIB or IDEA or many of theother terms that are used
(32:28):
because justice, leading the wayto creating psychologically
safe and emotionally safe spaces, so that the other levels of
the work cultural competence,the inclusion, the actual
diversity and equity and themission readiness piece gets us
to the level of operation inthat lens that's necessary.
So, at the baseline, we have tounderstand what is the change
(32:52):
that needs to be made and whatdoes that look like from the
perspective of leadership andwhat does that look like from
the perspective of non-C-suite,non-management employees.
And so, using a survey tool,and there are several available,
I work with a team that uses atool called a mosaic that looks
(33:14):
at five axes of interaction sothat can include race, gender,
sexual identity, economicjustice, just to name them a few
, and allows us to understandfrom the personal level and then
organizationally, how do peopleperceive where the great
challenge of, or the greatbarriers to creating their ideal
(33:36):
safe space live?
And more often than not you'regoing to get answers that are
starkly different betweenleadership and the day-to-day
staffer.
Then it's bringing it.
So it's getting thatinformation, bringing it
together.
And then two, asking thequestion what do we want to
tackle first, because everyonewants to tackle everything all
(33:58):
at once, typically when they'redoing this on their own.
Let's deal with pay, let's dealwith pay equity, let's deal
with hiring, let's deal with youknow, environmental space,
let's deal with our communityrelations, and all of those
things need to happen all at thesame time.
But If you're doing this onyour own and you're trying to be
intentional, it's okay to pumpthe brakes, to take a look at
(34:22):
what people are saying and arebeing bold enough to share, to
take that to heart and go.
I won't say go slow, because Idon't think that's the goal, but
go well.
And what I mean by that is ifit takes you two years to change
how your CRM is identifyingpotential clients or potential
(34:45):
or working with folks,especially in social services,
rather than six months to bringin X number of people that are
from non-white or from differentunderrepresented communities
into your workplace is okay if,at the end of the day, the two
years you took gives you ahigher level of service.
If you're bringing a bunch ofpeople in in six months to a
(35:07):
place that's not safe, they'regoing to leave and yeah, you got
the numbers, but you broughtpeople into an unsafe space to
do all these things that havebeen identified and that's not
fair to them and it's not fairto the organization that's
willing to take the step.
And then, third, I wouldprobably say, making a
commitment to reflection isimportant.
(35:30):
In a lot of my conversationsnow people will tell me oh, we
did the work, but we don't knowwhere to go from here.
Based on what we've done, isbecause there hasn't been a
proper reflection space put intoplace to be the mirror to say,
all right, from point A, we werehere and point C, we're here,
(35:51):
what did we learn and how doesthat continue to take us on this
quest and I can look any numberof ways exit surveys, community
conversations, what have you?
But making a visible, publicand an enforceable or an
accountability driven commitmentto reflection and using that to
(36:12):
propel future iterations ofconversations and systems change
are my big three.
Kyla Cofer (36:19):
You started out with the gathering, the data, and
then you ended with the kind ofmeasuring it.
And that's how we measure itright with the reflection is by
knowing where we are and thenseeing how far we've come or if
we've come anywhere at all, likeif we've grown at all and
having that moment and havingthat period of time where we
know we've started somewhere andwe are checking in.
(36:40):
We're not just assuming it'sgoing the way we want it to go,
but we're checking in, we'relooking back.
And that's how we get that likeaccurate, literally be able to
see kind of like numbers andchanges and growth, and to
really get a good picture of,okay, this is where we wanted to
go.
Are we actually doing what wesaid we were going to do?
Daniel Sims (36:57):
Absolutely.
We've had several surveys overthe last few years that talk
about how workers that are partof change efforts around DEI are
feeling, and many of them whoare, who have been part of
surveys, namely one done byDeloitte, I think, in 2021,
(37:17):
maybe early 2022, showed thatroughly 40% of workers that were
surveyed would consider leavingthe organizations altogether
after having seen how changeefforts were implemented and
subsequently failed in someregards, and then about 60% said
that they wouldn't recommend itas a place to work to other
(37:39):
people, and that number ishigher in different segments,
such as LGBTQIA+ employees,senior management, younger
employees, and so that level oftrust being broken or lack of
trust is a key indicator thatthe work isn't being taken
(38:00):
seriously or it's happening in avacuum, where that
accountability can't truly isn'thappening in the light of day.
Something that I would probablyadd, that is, if you don't know,
if you don't understand, one ofthe best professional
guideposts I've seen is Gallup'sInclusion Index, and there are
three pillars of what theyconsider to be a truly inclusive
(38:22):
culture are trust, respect andappreciation of unique
characteristics, and so beingable to have a litmus test, even
if it's one just as a baselineas that, to help initial
discussions about how well we'redoing and where we still have
an opportunity to grow, reallydoes then position an
(38:43):
organization and the peoplewithin it to increase their
knowledge and increase theirutility of the knowledge in the
long term.
Kyla Cofer (38:51):
If you were going to give our audience like one
piece of your best advice.
What's that one piece of bestadvice that you want to make
sure people hear today?
Daniel Sims (38:58):
There's so many things to think about.
Kyla Cofer (39:03):
I know it's an impossible ask.
Daniel Sims (39:05):
Yeah, but one thing that I think about, actually,
that I learned about in workingon my marriage and in learning
on how to be a good spouse thatis actually really key in this
work, especially now is thatdays are long but the years are
short.
And what it means is that, aswe're having these conversations
and we have an opportunity toturn corners and change the
(39:28):
trajectory of a mission, of anorganization, of the lives of
people that are affected by it,whether they're customers,
clients, etc.
Etc.
It's a big deal and, witheverything else that we have to
deal with in the world thatwe're living in now, we have to
learn how to treat ourselveskindly while holding ourselves
accountable, and know that thedeep, deep work is going to
(39:53):
require really a plunge into thetrenches.
But people are watching andwhat we're doing today, people
will hold us accountable for sixmonths from now, a year from
now, five years from now, if weare moving at a slow pace
because we think we have all thetime in the world, and the
world is moving on without us.
And you never want to findyourself in a place where the
(40:16):
culture of society is so farremoved from your lived
experience or your dailyexistence, working or living in
space that you can't catch upand you're causing communities
to die, to die at the stem as aresult.
Kyla Cofer (40:33):
Daniel, this has been so great.
I really appreciate it and Iactually I really appreciate
hearing that the term Jedi,justice, equity, diversity and
inclusion, because the firsttime I hear it I think you know
Star Wars.
So I really appreciate hearingthat learning that new term,
hearing some really practicalthings that we can do.
But also just opening up theconversation, sometimes even
(40:53):
just being willing to have theseconversations and say, okay,
like this matters to us, likewe're going to be in a company,
an organization, I'm going to bea leader who says that this
matters and I'm willing to haveconversations, even if it's hard
, even if I don't understandthem, even if I don't know where
to go or what to do next.
But the good thing is is thatwe can come and we have
resources like you to reach outto and to help us along the way.
(41:18):
So, Daniel, how can we reachyou and how can we find you and
interact and work with you?
Daniel Sims (41:22):
We are super active on LinkedIn as we are building
a new site this summer, so ourwebsite is down.
But you can go tosimsconsultinggroup.
com and join our mailing listand we'll be launching a brand
new web space this fall, whichwe're really excited about.
But find us at Daniel SimsConsulting Group on LinkedIn,
also on Facebook, or you canemail us at Daniel@
(41:44):
dsconsultinggroup.
net.
Kyla Cofer (41:47):
Awesome, Daniel.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Leadership School today.
It's been such a pleasure totalk with you.
Daniel Sims (41:52):
Thank you, it's been great to be here.
Thanks.
Kyla Cofer (41:57):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews over and we
can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation.
(42:19):
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/leadershipschool and for$6.50 a month you can support
(42:43):
this podcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and, honestly, I
can use a little bit of support.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(43:04):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/ leadership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(43:25):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
In 2018, I believe, corporations invested roughly
$19 billion in DEI initiatives,many of which are filtered
through HR or people managementdepartments or organizations, or
they bring in consultants withHR lenses.
Kyla Cofer (00:24):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal (00:38):
Teach you how to be an extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
I'm privileged to introduceDaniel Sims today.
Daniel is a consultant, author,a leader in developing funding
(00:59):
systems.
He talks a lot about how tocreate better systems in our
organizations, in our companies,in our workplace cultures, so
that we can be more missionfocused and ultimately bring
more money into yourorganization.
So how does he do that?
He uses his Allen Simstransformational model, a model
that he has created through hisresearch and how to build
(01:21):
transformational systems thatcan really advance your mission.
So he's going to tell us allabout that today.
Give us some really practicaltools on what that looks like
and how to actually do that.
So thanks so much, Daniel, forjoining me.
I'm so grateful to have youhere on the Leadership School
Podcast.
I'm just really honored to haveyou here and I'm just so
excited to have thisconversation.
So can you maybe tell us alittle bit about your story and
(01:42):
how you got here and kick us off?
Daniel Sims (01:44):
Absolutely.
Thanks, Kyla, for having me.
It is really exciting to behere and be able to share some
space with you for the nextlittle while.
So I'm from or live in Madison,Wisconsin, by way of Helena,
Arkansas.
So small town of just under10,000 people about 70 miles
southwest of Memphis.
(02:05):
That is really, you know, kindof at the root of who I am as a
person, learning about what itmeans to advocate for others,
what it means to be part of agroup working towards, you know,
transforming a community wherepeople are in need.
So Helena is in the ArkansasMississippi River Delta area,
(02:26):
one of the poorest areas in theworld and certainly in the
country, and so a lot of myexperience growing up was
navigating the social nonprofitworld, whether it's a food
pantry or a youth center orsomething around violence or
drug prevention, you know reallyformed the foundation of my
(02:46):
life and led to what I do now inJedi and organizational change,
philanthropy, kind of all theareas I've had a chance to touch
down in over the last 20 years.
But I think in 2003, it was kindof a pivotal year for me.
I was working with a youthtobacco coalition in our town
because we had a super high rateof teen tobacco use at the time
(03:09):
and got a chance to write myfirst grant supporting the staff
members there, and it was atthat point I realized this is
the work I want to do.
I don't know how you do it, Idon't know what the path is, but
I want to end up here doingthings that I know are going to
change the trajectory ofpeople's lives, and so the 20
years since has given me anopportunity to see that manifest
(03:32):
in a number of different spaces.
And so at this point in mycareer and in my life, it's
important for me to be able toshare that story through
multiple lenses, but also givingpeople the spirit of the story
by figuring out how that affectsthe trajectory of organizations
and how we think and how wehave conversations with one
another.
And so it's definitely almost afull circle moment being here
(03:57):
now thinking about everythingthat's happened in my life to
get me to a space where I cannow share and be a resource and
hopefully an inspiration forsomeone who's trying to find
their path, find their waytowards changing the world in
the way that fits the visionthat they've been given.
And so, you know, I'm happy toshare more about that as we kind
(04:18):
of navigate this conversation.
Kyla Cofer (04:20):
You grew up in Helena, Arkansas really
impoverished area, and thenonprofit world was really big
there because it was a lot oftrying to help the disadvantaged
in your low income area and soyou kind of grew up in that in
your career, started growinginto that nonprofit space.
But in 20 years ago that kindof changed in that youth group
that you were in where youreally helped people learn how
(04:41):
to be better advocates, and thatjust kind of propelled you into
what you're doing right now.
Tell me more about, then, whatyou're doing right now.
I would love to hear a littlebit more specifically like what
has that turned into today?
Daniel Sims (04:52):
So I would say that it really started to look more
like my current work in 2009.
So I returned home aftercollege and I had some
challenges in college.
So returned home for a while in2009, and kind of fell into an
opportunity to help a localmusic festival that happens in
Helena in early October eachyear.
(05:14):
It started in the mid 80s,actually a few months before I
was born, started on the back ofa truck to honor and really
highlight the importance ofblues music to the Delta and
particularly to Helena, becauseit's played a very major role in
the formation and thepropagation of blues music in
America and around the world.
And so I ended up at a cityadvertising and promotion
(05:38):
commission meetings, A&PCommission meeting, where the
treasurer for this event wasthere asking for community
support from what's known inHelena as the hamburger tax, so
the tourism tax that's thencollected to promote things like
the festival and other kind ofhistorical sites around Helena
that talk about the blues or theCivil War or what have you.
(06:00):
And they said they needed helpwith grants and so, having had
that experience a few yearsprior, I kind of put my hand up
and said, yeah, I'm happy tohelp with that.
But then, as I got deeper anddeeper into the process, I
realized that philanthropy wasan issue, but not the issue.
Because typically in this workthere are people that are really
passionate about a mission,have a clear idea, have the
(06:25):
emotional and mental fortitudeto get the mission done, but
then when it's time to raise themoney, it takes a certain skill
set or, borrowing from LiamNeeson it takes a very
particular set of skills to beeffective and go out and be able
to raise the money that youneed to make that vision come to
fruition.
So I ended up slowly but surelybecoming a leader of putting
(06:48):
this event on.
That had had a number ofchallenges before I came home,
but mostly was having socialissues.
So blues music is by and largea black art form.
It was formed in blackcommunities and the town I grew
up in is over 70% black, but thefestival was being run by a
team that was 95% white andwasn't necessarily connecting
(07:12):
effectively with the blackcommunity in town.
Really for three things howdoes the programming affect you?
Because at one point over200,000 people were coming to
our small town each year forthis event, which was kind of
the event for business ownersand that really wanted to make
their money for the year.
They'd be open to have food ordo have lodging or whatever, but
(07:34):
they were largely left out ofthat conversation and so, as an
extension, it became how do wecreate equity in how we choose
vendors and how people are beinginvolved in the planning
process, but also make this thebusiness that it is and ensure
that it's profitable, movingforward?
And so we worked in partnership,through community conversations
(07:56):
and bringing people in, to helpus figure out a path to that,
which included paid tickets forcertain stage areas for the
first time, because this hasbeen a free festival this whole
time, with the exception ofreceiving a portion of proceeds
from vendor sales and so we wereable to modernize the business
model, build a bridge to bringpeople back in and then turn a
(08:21):
organization that was severelyin the red to a little over $4
million in the black and under ayear, and that's really where
it all started to stringtogether.
We need people to feel safe, tofeel heard, and couple that with
philanthropic intent becausethere are people that are
watching for that to really puta fire under a vision and ensure
(08:44):
that it's really effectivelyhelping the people that are most
affected by the outcomes.
And so that then was kind ofthe propeller or the propulsion
point, I'd say, for what I'mdoing now and identifying in
organizations who's at the table, who's not at the table, why
aren't they at the table and howdo we recreate the wheel, where
(09:06):
necessary, to break down thosebarriers and keep perpetual
iterative change at the centerof how we do business and how we
connect with one another?
Kyla Cofer (09:17):
I'm impressed and in awe of that number that you
just mentioned, because you saidfour million.
Is that what you said, fourmillion?
Daniel Sims (09:24):
I did, I did.
Kyla Cofer (09:26):
That's huge, that's a big change.
Daniel Sims (09:29):
I had a chance to do a little bit more of that
over the years.
Currently that's like about 15years in I've helped raise just
under half a billion dollarsacross the organizations I've
worked with through this timeand I found it's pretty, not
that it's simple, buildingrelationships and leveraging
that to make philanthropicimpact is simple.
(09:50):
I enjoyed that part.
But there's really a science tohow we cultivate and build
those relationships and reallyalign the potential for that
impact with real issues and realproblems.
And I find that particularexperience unique because we
were able to make that veryperfect, general, almost once in
(10:11):
a generation alignment in thatarea for what it needed at the
time to keep this thing goingand to keep its legacy alive.
Kyla Cofer (10:19):
You said that there were some things that made the
difference there because youwere being more intentional
about certain things.
Can you repeat what you hadsaid there?
I want to go a little bitfurther into that.
Daniel Sims (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that we were able toproperly align the philanthropic
interest of funders, individualdonors, with real world
problems that they could see.
And that's not always easy,particularly when you are
raising money at that higherlevel from, say, the Walton
(10:48):
Foundation or the RockefellerFoundation, those large scale
funders that are somewhatremoved from the ground level of
what's taking place in thecommunities that they partner
with, and we had an opportunityto bring those people directly
into the environment.
And not to say that thatdoesn't work for other types of
organizations or for fundraisingin general, but we found that
(11:10):
for this particular organizationto turn its corner, that sort
of visceral impact was necessaryto make the difference.
Kyla Cofer (11:21):
So this is something that you are also working to
kind of replicate, right it'sbecause it matters and the
people that you serve, andseeing what the actual needs are
, and finding those out andintegrating those with the money
givers, right where the moneyis coming from, and finding ways
to integrate that all thattogether.
So where do you start with that?
I mean, how do you start toreally to break that down in a
way that's really helpful,because I think this is really
(11:42):
important when we talk about, Imean, not just fundraising, but
just the communities that weserve overall and even in
business and our leadershiproles, because we're not finding
out like this is marketresearch 101, right.
If we're not finding outexactly what it is that people
want and we're just giving whatthey think they want, we're not
successful.
So that's kind of what you'retalking about.
Daniel Sims (12:02):
Absolutely, and I think that what happens 99% of
the time in philanthropy is thatwe assume that we understand
the best interest of people thatwe serve, or people that we
want to serve, without everhaving had conversations with
them.
As a result, when we hear termslike, say, donor-centric
(12:25):
fundraising and also now, on theother side of that,
community-centric fundraising,these opposing schools of
thought really provide a starkview, I think, in some regards,
of how the community is investedand involved in its
transformation and how outsideinfluence, no matter how good
the intention, transformscommunities anathema to the
(12:46):
needs and the trajectory of thepeople who are living there and
are experienced in doing lifethere.
And so that's really thebeginning.
If I want to do a thing as aprogram leader, as a nonprofit
leader, as a business leader, Ineed to understand how the end
user is going to be able toutilize, experience, have their
(13:07):
life transformed by whateverthing A or thing B is, and that
takes a lot more work andintention, and that's why a lot
of organizations just don't doit or they don't do it as
effectively or as intentionallyas they should.
But it's very much like we hearin something from Stephen Covey
.
You know, we begin with the endin mind and when we do that,
(13:28):
thinking very outside of the boxabout how we're bringing people
in to say we're not just hereto give you a thing or give you
something we think you need.
We're here because we want toco-create a community that makes
sense for you and that is safefor you and that is giving you
the things you need to live agood life, whatever that means
(13:49):
for them.
And so that's the hardest partand it takes the most work.
And then you can add in theother traditional pieces: Who
are our donors?
What's the research?
How are we cultivating them?
How do we get them to that endgift?
But I have found that's reallybeen the difference maker in my
own work.
Is that, as a consultant, as anin-house fundraising or
(14:10):
development officer, as I'vebeen over the years, that's what
I need to figure out.
When one of my last roles, I wasworking at the University of
Wisconsin Foundation in theCollege of Engineering and we
had several projects going on,but one in particular in the
department I worked with wascreating an endowed chair for
this department that was reallyfocused on ethics and
(14:32):
engineering, but also indiversifying the field and
creating safe spaces to do that.
And so I had the opportunity tohave conversations with
students because I needed tounderstand, certainly from an
undergrad, but then also from agraduate perspective, because I
had come in in a time afterthere had been some very highly
publicized stories about toxiccultures in graduate programs in
(14:58):
the College of Engineering,particularly in the department
that I was working with, and sounderstanding what safety meant
for them and understanding whatthis money funneled through a
leader could do for them helpedme to have, you know, key or
ideal conversations then withthe particular donors we wanted
to target.
Because I knew then what neededto be co-created in a way that
(15:22):
made sense and was endorsed bypeople that were going to be
living in it on a day-to-daybasis.
Kyla Cofer (15:29):
How are you gathering this data?
Are you doing surveys?
Are you just asking people?
Are you looking at broadercommunities?
I mean, this is some datagathering, and how do you get
people to be honest in the datathat you're asking of them and
the questions that you're askingof them?
Daniel Sims (15:46):
Absolutely.
I would say in fundraising workit's really perpetual thing.
It's not so much a survey as itis building up the human
capital to have those honestconversations.
And so in development you knowyou don't have the time
necessarily to do a full-onenvironmental scan because you
need to raise the money for thething, but you also need to
(16:07):
raise the money in the right wayfor the thing.
And so it's a very delicatebalancing act of continuing to
do the work of engaging withdonors and bringing in funds to
fund this vision, but reallybeing cognizant of how we're
spending the rest of our time incommunity with people and being
intentional.
(16:27):
And sometimes that's a post-9 to5 thing.
If I'm working with donors from9 to 5, but it's a youth program
that meets from 6 to 8, Ishould probably hang out from 6
to 8 a couple of days a week toget to know the kids that are
coming in to do dance or to playa sport or to get their
homework done or to generallyjust be and feel safe in the
neighborhood that they live inor the space that they inhabit.
(16:50):
And so that's really the easiestway to do it fundraising, or at
least in my day-to-dayfundraising work, but in general
consulting and the work thatI'm doing now in research, there
are a couple of ways to goabout it and it's certainly
still all we're doing in trust.
But it really begins then withcreating safe, sanitary spaces
(17:11):
where this data can be gatheredand knowing how to both
aggregate it properly buteffectively disaggregate it,
when you are getting similarstories about toxic culture, in
competent leadership, a barrierto entry for promotion, a lack
of attention to economic justiceand pay equity, and so a lot of
(17:35):
that then comes from justproviding space through
conversation, also making surethat survey-driven tools that we
are using aren't leading peopleplaces, and so that takes a lot
more work to figure out how weuse our tools that are not
non-bias, inherent, to make surethat we are getting the data
that we want and then analyzingit in a way that is taking as
(17:58):
much of our bias out of how wethen write out that roadmap for
how they make those improvementsand hope that makes sense.
Kyla Cofer (18:06):
Well, what I'm hearing is that it's really kind
of like a circle and you cantell me if I'm wrong here,
because what I'm understandingis we're talking about raising
money to keep programs andresources going right,
fundraising, leading the waythere.
But then, in order to do that,we need to first have the safe
workplaces, so that we can raisethe money to create more safe
(18:28):
workplaces and or safe places,and not just workplaces, but the
safe places and safe programsand things that we're creating.
And in order to create the safeplaces, we also have to have
justice, equity, diversity,inclusion.
We have all of those things inplace and they kind of all play
off of each other and just keepgoing around and you're
hopefully.
Maybe not a circle, but maybemore of like upwards by where
(18:50):
we're starting and we're kind ofputting all these things
together and we're gettingbetter at it.
We're going up in the level andwe're getting better at it.
Moving up a level is that kindof what you're talking about.
Daniel Sims (18:59):
So I would describe it as a circle.
So the research model and themethodology model that I use is
a circle because it signifiesthat there is a perpetual level
of attention that has to be donefor transformation.
And so in all the work that wedo and what called the Allen
Sims gen transformation model is, we're discovering where these
(19:19):
gaps are.
Through those conversations andthrough other data collection
methods, we are creating thensafe spaces to dig into that
data, figure out where thespecific organizational level
and personal level opportunitiesfor growth exist.
We look at the systems changethat needs to happen
simultaneous to thistransformation in person to
(19:39):
person knowledge, and then we'rere evaluating what's happening.
But as that's going on in yourlearning new information,
speaking to that upwards spiral,it is always allowing you to
surface and examine your pointin time, set of beliefs and
principles and how that isjuxtaposed to this
(19:59):
transformationalend game that's been established
or co created with anorganization and that goes for
philanthropic organization or afor profit corporation, is that
we all want to be in a placewhere, ultimately, we are
bringing strategy to a keyintersection with innovation, to
(20:20):
do good work and to use systemsto drive positive change, but I
think for a lot of groups itjust comes down to oh, we don't
know how to do it or we don'thave the money to do it, or
something, something, something.
And so we like to use that todisabuse people of the notions
that certain aspects oftransformational or
organizational change can'thappen if resources are present,
(20:44):
for example, there are a lot ofthings that can be brought to
the table to make that happen.
But I think to your question,it's kind of a combination of
those things, but ensuring thatpeople understand that this is a
long term iterative growthjourney that they're on.
Kyla Cofer (21:00):
Yeah, I'm glad that you said we don't know how, or
we don't have the money, andsometimes it feels overwhelming
right, so we just need to getthe money in the door, we just
need to get the programcontinuing to operate, we just
need to get the next day.
And sometimes it's hard to takethat step back and go okay, how
can this be even better?
How do we actually do this?
How do we create thistransformation that we're
(21:20):
looking for within ourorganization, within our company
?
So where do you start?
I mean, you mentioned the AlanSims transformational model.
Tell me exactly what that is.
And then I want to I'm curious,if we've got listeners here in
the audience who are leading theway, they're wanting safe,
equitable workplaces, they'rewanting to grow, they're wanting
to move forward.
So where do they start?
So that's two questions.
(21:40):
Let me back up question onewhat is the Alan sims
transformational model?
And then question two is how doyou actually start?
Hey leaders, have you everconsidered starting your very
own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience and creating
this leadership school podcast Ihave grown my business, I have
(22:02):
learned exponentially, I've hada ton of fun and my confidence
level has increased tenfold bycontinuing to show up and put on
a really great show.
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self doubt, would
(22:22):
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do isright now go to podcaster school
.
net.
That's podcaster school.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule call with me and let's
check.
So I want to hear about whatyour potential ideas are.
What would make you interestedin starting a podcast?
(22:43):
It's such a fantastic way toreally grow, increase your
knowledge, your business andreally get yourself out into the
world.
So take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
get started on your very ownshow.
Daniel Sims (23:00):
Absolutely so.
The Allison's Jeditransformation model is a
byproduct of my master'sresearch, so I hold a master's
public service from the ClintonSchool of Public Service, which
is part of the University ofArkansas and is attached to the
Clinton Presidential Library inLittle Rock, Arkansas, where I
lived for about a decade beforemoving to Wisconsin.
(23:22):
I decided that I wanted tofocus my research in community
philanthropy because a lot ofthe work I had done to that
point, particularly in theperiod starting in late 2014
after the death of Mike Brown inSt Louis really started to
focus on how does diversity andDEI or Jedi values affect the
(23:47):
operationalizing of the systemschange of how we do philanthropy
.
And then I was grown to how dowe operationalize how we do
multiple types of work across anumber of industries and sectors
.
But as I had conversations withroughly 70 nonprofit leaders,
both development officers, ceos,chief development officers,
(24:09):
everyday donors, high levelfunders and philanthropists from
around the world, three keythings became clear.
There are many organizationsaround the country that are
ready to invest in this kind ofwork.
In 2018, I believe,corporations invested roughly
$19 billion in DEI initiatives,many of which are filtered
(24:35):
through HR or people managementdepartments of organizations, or
they bring in consultants withHR lenses I don't have.
I don't come from an HRbackground.
Because of what I've been ableto unearth and to gather from my
pre-master's research I've beenworking with clients and
certainly in the interviews thatI got to have, in putting
(24:56):
together my thesis that peopleneed a clear path, no matter if
it's free.
If it's free work that'shappening within the
organization, if a consultant'scoming in, that they need to
understand what the veryspecifics path might be to help
them make a change.
For example, one area that Ispend a lot of time on in my
(25:19):
work today is looking at how weare identifying donors.
Many of our research tools inthe profession are used in a
very bias, inherent way, wheremost of our lists are probably
spitting out wealthy white menor white women or whoever
however, that are giving in whatwe consider traditional
(25:41):
philanthropic ways to auniversity, to a community
center, which doesn't take intoaccount how philanthropy is
realized in other non-whitecommunities, where the
assumption is black communitiesor Hispanic communities or Asian
communities may not bephilanthropic, but they are at a
much higher rate than mostother ethnic groups.
(26:04):
When you have an organizationand wants to figure that out, we
want to then look at how do wediscover what the point in time
starting point is, how do welook at how your systems can be
changed?
But how do we change the mindsof the people doing the research
?
Because a system can only dowhat you tell it or what you
allow it to do, and so thatsimultaneous wow, this is
(26:28):
transforming how I see, how Iunderstand thing A.
This is how I can technicallychange how I input thing A or
thing B into system C.
Then we're able to then have abaseline by which we can
evaluate.
All right, now we've seen thatthe number of non-white donors
in the pipeline has increased by40%.
(26:49):
Our level of engagement withblack donors ages X to X, has
increased sixfold with theaverage gift size of this.
And so those are the thingsthat help in philanthropy, and
they help in any field.
But being able to really showand demonstrate how gift sizes
change, how donor pools change,how it can change the trajectory
(27:13):
of research of donors and whoare our partners, both in cash
but also in non-cash giving waysthat are still advancing the
mission, that helps to open upeyes and usually brings more
leaders to the table, becausethat is a vantage point from
which they can understand howthe transformation should happen
(27:34):
.
And then you're bringing themalong with a journey, with the
iterative knowledge that you'reproviding them.
So then it makes more sensethat, oh, I'm not on a hill
looking on this thing.
I'm now in the work,co-creating, co-working with my
colleagues and with my team tokeep this moving forward,
because it has to, because it'svaluable, because these people
are valuable.
Kyla Cofer (27:55):
What I just heard from you is that by doing this
work that you're doing and usingthis model, focusing in these
ways and doing this researchupfront and getting to know the
way that this group of peoplethinks, you're taking
transformational, systemic Idon't know about systemic change
, but maybe the change of aculture or transformation of an
(28:15):
organization.
You're taking that timelinedown from 10, 20 years down to
like a few years, because changetakes so long.
Any type of big major change ora perspective shift, thinking
shift takes so long, but bydoing things this way you're
going to shorten that timebecause we know what it takes to
(28:36):
make that change happen.
You can do that and follow itmethodically.
Daniel Sims (28:41):
I think that's what I've always found most
fascinating about doing thiswork is that people, and really
with a lot of things in systemschange and organizational
change, people feel that thingsjust happen, especially in
smaller or mid-size shops wherethe goal is to just get the
(29:02):
thing done.
I understand it'll be so.
I've worked both as aconsultant and as a staffer in
those shops and the pressures ofkeeping things moving usually
are much higher than othercultural considerations more
often than not.
But they do exist.
They tend to exist in anoutsized manner compared to
other organizations.
(29:22):
So much of my work is focusedon building the business case
for why shops of that size,which make up the lion's share
of non-profits and in businessesin this country, need to take
that pause to figure out whatmakes the most sense for us, who
are the people we serve andwhere is our focus at this time.
(29:45):
We could still do the work, westill must do the work, but
there's an opportunity here todo it.
So that is still one of thegreat battles that is yet to be
decided in the workplace,largely because this is for the
first time we have fourgenerations of people in the
(30:07):
workforce and that is changingin this next 10 years.
But while we're here and whilethese conversations and debates
are happening, there are veryunique and interesting vantage
points from Gen Z to the boomersto Gen X and certainly to
millennials, about how do we goabout making these changes and
(30:29):
how do we bring people along.
From my perspective, in a waythat challenges beliefs in that.
But we're ahead of time and Ithink we talked about this at
one point earlier where we thinkabout the public square
generally as a place where wecan reason and have debates and
think about how we're movingforward.
(30:50):
That place is under attack andit's under attack in public as
we think about politics, andit's certainly under attack as
these conversations have takenhold in the workplaces of the
world over the last severalyears.
So that is also a keyconsideration, I think, as
organizations are starting that;is, how do we maintain the
(31:12):
space to work through our issueswith dealing with the issues?
That's an importantconversation and safe space to
be had, and most people don'ttalk about that and the need for
that, in addition to the workthat must take place to make the
changes.
Kyla Cofer (31:29):
Well, because it's hard, it takes a lot of effort
and it takes critical thinkingand it takes some I don't know
if patience is the right wordbut some peace building efforts.
It takes within yourself,within ourselves, and our
willingness to pursue thingsthat are hard and be intentional
and not give up, and that canbe really intimidating,
especially when you've got a lotof work to get done.
(31:49):
Okay, so we've got audience,we're listening.
Hearing you talk this soundsgreat and amazing.
What are the first three thingsyou want to tell somebody?
Where do we start?
What are the first three thingsthat they need to do and the
first questions that they needto ask or things that they need
to do to get really started inbuilding this process?
Daniel Sims (32:06):
Very good question, thank you, and I'm always
thinking about the answer I'llgive today will probably be
different in six months or in ayear, but you know, as my
baseline for for Jedi and I useJedi rather than DI or EDI or
DEIB or IDEA or many of theother terms that are used
(32:28):
because justice, leading the wayto creating psychologically
safe and emotionally safe spaces, so that the other levels of
the work cultural competence,the inclusion, the actual
diversity and equity and themission readiness piece gets us
to the level of operation inthat lens that's necessary.
So, at the baseline, we have tounderstand what is the change
(32:52):
that needs to be made and whatdoes that look like from the
perspective of leadership andwhat does that look like from
the perspective of non-C-suite,non-management employees.
And so, using a survey tool,and there are several available,
I work with a team that uses atool called a mosaic that looks
(33:14):
at five axes of interaction sothat can include race, gender,
sexual identity, economicjustice, just to name them a few
, and allows us to understandfrom the personal level and then
organizationally, how do peopleperceive where the great
challenge of, or the greatbarriers to creating their ideal
(33:36):
safe space live?
And more often than not you'regoing to get answers that are
starkly different betweenleadership and the day-to-day
staffer.
Then it's bringing it.
So it's getting thatinformation, bringing it
together.
And then two, asking thequestion what do we want to
tackle first, because everyonewants to tackle everything all
(33:58):
at once, typically when they'redoing this on their own.
Let's deal with pay, let's dealwith pay equity, let's deal
with hiring, let's deal with youknow, environmental space,
let's deal with our communityrelations, and all of those
things need to happen all at thesame time.
But If you're doing this onyour own and you're trying to be
intentional, it's okay to pumpthe brakes, to take a look at
(34:22):
what people are saying and arebeing bold enough to share, to
take that to heart and go.
I won't say go slow, because Idon't think that's the goal, but
go well.
And what I mean by that is ifit takes you two years to change
how your CRM is identifyingpotential clients or potential
(34:45):
or working with folks,especially in social services,
rather than six months to bringin X number of people that are
from non-white or from differentunderrepresented communities
into your workplace is okay if,at the end of the day, the two
years you took gives you ahigher level of service.
If you're bringing a bunch ofpeople in in six months to a
(35:07):
place that's not safe, they'regoing to leave and yeah, you got
the numbers, but you broughtpeople into an unsafe space to
do all these things that havebeen identified and that's not
fair to them and it's not fairto the organization that's
willing to take the step.
And then, third, I wouldprobably say, making a
commitment to reflection isimportant.
(35:30):
In a lot of my conversationsnow people will tell me oh, we
did the work, but we don't knowwhere to go from here.
Based on what we've done, isbecause there hasn't been a
proper reflection space put intoplace to be the mirror to say,
all right, from point A, we werehere and point C, we're here,
(35:51):
what did we learn and how doesthat continue to take us on this
quest and I can look any numberof ways exit surveys, community
conversations, what have you?
But making a visible, publicand an enforceable or an
accountability driven commitmentto reflection and using that to
(36:12):
propel future iterations ofconversations and systems change
are my big three.
Kyla Cofer (36:19):
You started out with the gathering, the data, and
then you ended with the kind ofmeasuring it.
And that's how we measure itright with the reflection is by
knowing where we are and thenseeing how far we've come or if
we've come anywhere at all, likeif we've grown at all and
having that moment and havingthat period of time where we
know we've started somewhere andwe are checking in.
(36:40):
We're not just assuming it'sgoing the way we want it to go,
but we're checking in, we'relooking back.
And that's how we get that likeaccurate, literally be able to
see kind of like numbers andchanges and growth, and to
really get a good picture of,okay, this is where we wanted to
go.
Are we actually doing what wesaid we were going to do?
Daniel Sims (36:57):
Absolutely.
We've had several surveys overthe last few years that talk
about how workers that are partof change efforts around DEI are
feeling, and many of them whoare, who have been part of
surveys, namely one done byDeloitte, I think, in 2021,
(37:17):
maybe early 2022, showed thatroughly 40% of workers that were
surveyed would consider leavingthe organizations altogether
after having seen how changeefforts were implemented and
subsequently failed in someregards, and then about 60% said
that they wouldn't recommend itas a place to work to other
(37:39):
people, and that number ishigher in different segments,
such as LGBTQIA+ employees,senior management, younger
employees, and so that level oftrust being broken or lack of
trust is a key indicator thatthe work isn't being taken
(38:00):
seriously or it's happening in avacuum, where that
accountability can't truly isn'thappening in the light of day.
Something that I would probablyadd, that is, if you don't know,
if you don't understand, one ofthe best professional
guideposts I've seen is Gallup'sInclusion Index, and there are
three pillars of what theyconsider to be a truly inclusive
(38:22):
culture are trust, respect andappreciation of unique
characteristics, and so beingable to have a litmus test, even
if it's one just as a baselineas that, to help initial
discussions about how well we'redoing and where we still have
an opportunity to grow, reallydoes then position an
(38:43):
organization and the peoplewithin it to increase their
knowledge and increase theirutility of the knowledge in the
long term.
Kyla Cofer (38:51):
If you were going to give our audience like one
piece of your best advice.
What's that one piece of bestadvice that you want to make
sure people hear today?
Daniel Sims (38:58):
There's so many things to think about.
Kyla Cofer (39:03):
I know it's an impossible ask.
Daniel Sims (39:05):
Yeah, but one thing that I think about, actually,
that I learned about in workingon my marriage and in learning
on how to be a good spouse thatis actually really key in this
work, especially now is thatdays are long but the years are
short.
And what it means is that, aswe're having these conversations
and we have an opportunity toturn corners and change the
(39:28):
trajectory of a mission, of anorganization, of the lives of
people that are affected by it,whether they're customers,
clients, etc.
Etc.
It's a big deal and, witheverything else that we have to
deal with in the world thatwe're living in now, we have to
learn how to treat ourselveskindly while holding ourselves
accountable, and know that thedeep, deep work is going to
(39:53):
require really a plunge into thetrenches.
But people are watching andwhat we're doing today, people
will hold us accountable for sixmonths from now, a year from
now, five years from now, if weare moving at a slow pace
because we think we have all thetime in the world, and the
world is moving on without us.
And you never want to findyourself in a place where the
(40:16):
culture of society is so farremoved from your lived
experience or your dailyexistence, working or living in
space that you can't catch upand you're causing communities
to die, to die at the stem as aresult.
Kyla Cofer (40:33):
Daniel, this has been so great.
I really appreciate it and Iactually I really appreciate
hearing that the term Jedi,justice, equity, diversity and
inclusion, because the firsttime I hear it I think you know
Star Wars.
So I really appreciate hearingthat learning that new term,
hearing some really practicalthings that we can do.
But also just opening up theconversation, sometimes even
(40:53):
just being willing to have theseconversations and say, okay,
like this matters to us, likewe're going to be in a company,
an organization, I'm going to bea leader who says that this
matters and I'm willing to haveconversations, even if it's hard
, even if I don't understandthem, even if I don't know where
to go or what to do next.
But the good thing is is thatwe can come and we have
resources like you to reach outto and to help us along the way.
(41:18):
So, Daniel, how can we reachyou and how can we find you and
interact and work with you?
Daniel Sims (41:22):
We are super active on LinkedIn as we are building
a new site this summer, so ourwebsite is down.
But you can go tosimsconsultinggroup.
com and join our mailing listand we'll be launching a brand
new web space this fall, whichwe're really excited about.
But find us at Daniel SimsConsulting Group on LinkedIn,
also on Facebook, or you canemail us at Daniel@
(41:44):
dsconsultinggroup.
net.
Kyla Cofer (41:47):
Awesome, Daniel.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Leadership School today.
It's been such a pleasure totalk with you.
Daniel Sims (41:52):
Thank you, it's been great to be here.
Thanks.
Kyla Cofer (41:57):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews over and we
can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation.
(42:19):
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/leadershipschool and for$6.50 a month you can support
(42:43):
this podcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and, honestly, I
can use a little bit of support.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(43:04):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/ leadership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(43:25):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
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