August 17, 2023 • 48 mins
Ever wonder what it takes to navigate the complexities of a boardroom? Sharon Critchlow, an accomplished executive director, accountant, and speaker, joins us to share her journey from a small English town to making her mark in the world of finance and leadership. An expert in the intricate dynamics of board service, Sharon lends her insight on understanding agendas, presenting papers, and the critical role of being a friend within the board.
Her journey doesn't stop there. Sharon shares how she mastered the art of public speaking and the importance of stepping outside her comfort zone. With an intriguing story and thought-provoking questions, Sharon underscores the centrality of emotional intelligence in our responses to various situations. What if we all responded to each other with empathy and asked questions instead of reacting with our immediate emotional responses? How could our world be different?
If you've ever considered a board position or are curious about the role emotional intelligence plays in leadership, this is a conversation you won't want to miss. Hear Sharon's inspiring story and take away invaluable advice from her experiences in leadership and board service. Prepare to be enlightened on the fascinating world of leadership and board service.
As an international best-selling writer and speaker Sharon is a vocal changemaker. She brings passion to the subjects of the future of work, diversity, emotional intelligence and environmental social governance.
Writer of numerous articles published across the globe on wellbeing topics, she is the co-author Amazon best-selling book: "Love Your Life! 100 Tips For More Peace and Happiness."
Sharon is Director at Discover Your Bounce, which is a personal development and workplace wellness provider and is a qualified Accountant with over 20 years of experience in board roles and growing successful businesses in the financial services sector. Now a qualified coach and mentor, Sharon is passionate about people becoming the best that they can be and allowing their true talents to shine. She continues to share her board experience as a Council member for ACCA, which is a global accountancy provider and as a non executive director of Clarion Housing Association.
Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please support us on Patreon.
For more leadership tools, check out the free workbooks at KylaCofer.com/freestuff.
Book Kyla to speak at your event here, or to connect further, reach out to Kyla on LinkedIn and Instagram.
All transcripts are created with Descript, an amazing transcript creation and editing tool. Check it out for yourself!
Leadership School Production:
Produced by Kyla Cofer
Edited by Neel Panji @ PodLeaF Productions
Assistant Production Alaina Hulette
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sharon Critchlow (00:00):
For me, integrity is about your own
deepest values, and so it'sliving to those deepest values.
If you had to wear a placardwith your actions versus how you
feel, would you be in alignmentor would you be ashamed?
Kyla Cofer (00:23):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal Teach you how to be anextraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:50):
I hope you're having afantastic, incredible day.
I am about to make it betterwith a really inspiring
conversation.
Today I'm talking with SharonCritchlow.
She is the director at Discoveryour Bounce, which is a
personal development andworkplace wellness provider.
So Sharon is actually anaccountant.
She's had over 20 years ofexperience as an accountant and
(01:11):
she took that experience andused it to become a board member
.
She's been on multiple boardsand she helps people on boards.
She is now a continual memberof the board for the ACCA.
It's a global accountancyprovider.
She also is a bestsellingauthor.
She wrote the bestselling bookLove your Life 100 Tips for More
Peace and Happiness.
She's a speaker.
(01:31):
She shares her story and shemakes a couple of really good
jokes in our conversation aboutwhat it means to be an
accountant and a public speaker,but she loves talking about
emotional intelligence.
So in our conversation today,we're really talking about three
different things.
We're talking about being aboard member.
What does it mean to be on aboard?
What does it look like?
How do you do it?
How do you approach differentsituations?
(01:53):
She shares her experiences withthat and just does some
training on that.
Then part two is we talk aboutemotional intelligence, which is
really interesting.
This has been really a theme ofour podcast this season, this
year, or maybe the entirepodcast, because of how much I
love talking about emotionalintelligence.
In our conversationspecifically, she tells a
jaw-dropping story and in thatstory she gives two key
(02:17):
questions and these twoquestions really get into the
deep of how do you respond tothings as a mature person in a
way that promotes humanity.
It's really beautiful.
I encourage you to listen allthe way to get to this
conversation.
Make sure.
Our part three is our Patreonconversation.
So after our interview, we havea more casual laid-back
(02:39):
conversation where we talk aboutwhat is integrity, what is
balance, and we just chat for alittle while just casually.
In that I was really reallyinspired by a beautiful
description, for me personally,of my perfect life.
If you want to hear what myperfect life is, you need to
jump on over to our Patreon atpatreon.
com/ leadership school andyou'll get to hear Sharon and
(03:01):
describe my perfect life.
It's one that she's living.
It's really interesting how weturn the conversation there.
Make sure to join us.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Leadership School Podcast
.
It's always a pleasure andhonor to share these stories
with you and share thesejourneys and bring you inspiring
leaders from around the world.
I'm really grateful for youjoining me on Leadership School
(03:21):
Podcast.
I'm really excited to hear yourstory.
I think we have a reallyinteresting topic, so I would
love for you if you could startus out by telling us your story,
telling us who you are, whatbrought you here and, I guess,
what qualifies you to talk aboutleadership.
But we know that you'requalified.
I'm just curious about yourstory.
Sharon Critchlow (03:36):
So my name is Sharon Critchlow and I grew up
in the southwest of England in avery lovely holiday sort of
area by the sea.
It wasn't the sort of placewhere leaders you would think
spring from, but as I know now,leaders come from all sorts of
different places.
I didn't leave school withgreat academic qualifications,
(03:56):
but I was very fortunate in thatI discovered ACCA, the
Association of CharteredCertified Accountants, which is
an accountancy body, and theyenable you to take a master's
level qualification but to do itby distance learning, to do it
remotely, you can do it throughuniversities.
There's lots of different openaccess ways of getting this
qualification.
(04:16):
And that's what I did.
And despite leaving school withnot very much, I qualified as
an accountant when I was 23.
And what that did is it gave methe opportunity to expand out
from this lovely little townwhere I grew up, where I would
look as I was making coffees forpeople in the coffee shop.
I would look out over the bayand see all the boats and think
(04:40):
I'll never be able to afford oneof those, I'll never be able to
have that sort of lifestyle,but through that qualification
and through my career since,I've ended up very much being
able to grow into that sort ofrole and that sort of space, and
whenever I need to get my feetback on the ground, I go back to
the place where that coffeeshop now is.
It's now a different coffeeshop, but it's still there and I
(05:03):
sit there and I have to look atthe same view and I get a bit
of perspective from where I'vecome from to where I am now.
What I did is I left that townthat had trained me to be an
accountant and I went to theother side of the county still a
very rural place and I learneda few more things about
accountancy.
I became a manager.
One of the things I learnedmore than anything else is how
(05:24):
not to be a manager.
So I think this is probably oneof the first life lessons that
I learned about leadership isthat all of life is coaching.
Everything around you isteaching you something if you
pay attention, and it wasn'tuntil fairly recently.
I actually met leaders that Iwould say were great leaders.
Before that I met people whowere kind of getting by.
(05:44):
They were people with greattechnical ability who didn't
have great people ability Evenwhen they had their own
businesses.
That was a bit of a constraintfor them.
To be honest, it was aconstraint for them keeping
staff.
It was a constraint for themsometimes dealing with issues
with clients.
So I'd moved then up to Bristol, which is a fairly sizeable
(06:05):
city in the UK, and I decidedthat I was going to do something
different.
So still along accountancytheme, but not as an accountant.
I went into financial servicesquite low down to a fairly
straightforward admin job whileI thought about what I really
wanted to do.
And the thing is, the businesspart of my brain that
(06:25):
accountancy had woken upwouldn't shut up.
It kept looking at the business.
I was sitting in thinkingoperationally, we could do this,
we could do that.
So I went to the board withsome proposals and I became a
director of that company and Istayed there for 17 years and we
grew it from being a very smallbusiness to being a very good
seven figure mid-sized business.
(06:47):
I was in charge of complianceand so making sure that we were
legally right, and in financialservices in the UK that's quite
a task because there's a lot oflegality to get your business
through if you want to remainprofitable but you also want to
be on the right side of the law.
I was also in charge ofoperations and in charge of all
(07:07):
of our team, all of the hiringand firing, as it were, all of
the personal development for allof our people.
From there I sold out of thatbusiness in my mid 40s and
that's went into a reallyinteresting even more
interesting as if that wasinteresting enough as it was
when I'd moved to the big city Ididn't know anyone, I didn't
have any friends, so I thought Ineed a network, that's what I
need.
(07:27):
So I went back to ACCA to seewhat they were doing, and they
were doing some professionaldevelopment courses in Bristol
and I turned up to all of themand basically just met people
and learned things.
And they said you'll hear a lot.
Would you like to join thepanel?
And I'm like I have no ideawhat that is, but go on then.
And I'm so glad I did so.
(07:48):
There's another lesson inleadership to learn is step
outside your comfort zone a bitand try something a bit
different.
So this panel what it meant wasto be helping with putting
these courses together.
Who would be a good speaker,and things like this, and what
you'd have to do is, when we gotthis speaker, you would have to
turn up at the start of theevent and say today's speaker is
(08:11):
Joe Brown and he's speakingabout taxation and the coffee is
at 730.
And the problem is nobodywanted to do it.
Everybody was afraid becauseit's public speaking and it's
one of those things that peoplefear.
And accountants, you know,we're put on this planet to talk
to ourselves and look at acalculator, apparently, so it's
even worse trying to find avolunteer who wants to do that.
(08:32):
So I ended up doing it and Ican remember looking at this
basically not talking to thecrowd but talking to a piece of
paper and seeing this papershaking in my hand as I did it.
And I did it over and over andover again, and many years on
now I'm a conference speaker,but I can still remember how it
felt to step out in front of thesmall group of people, all of
(08:53):
which were lovely, most of whichare my friends.
I don't have to say the speakertoday is Joe and he's talking
about tax and be petrified.
But I love public speaking nowand I love getting the soft
skills and the people skills outthere to more and more
accountants, which is part of myreason for being, if you like.
(09:13):
So when I escaped from myprevious business, I didn't have
a plan, which is not very likeme.
I'm normally very much up forhave a plan, work towards your
plan, know where you're going inlife and I thought I would just
see what happened.
And what happened is I becamean executive director, which
I've now been for a couple ofdifferent businesses.
I also joined council at ACCAon the accountancy body, and
(09:35):
that is a wonderful privilege tobe voted into that position.
We have 250,000 members in 176countries and it's an open vote.
They can vote for who they wantto be at the top of the tree
and the organization and toagree strategy with the
executive team and hold theexecutive team into account.
And I am one of those people,and so I do feel hugely proud
(09:58):
and humbled that I would begiven that opportunity, which I
have now held for seven years.
So in addition to that, thereare other subcommittees at ACCA.
I've also sat on and continueto sit on, and that's basically
it.
So now I go out and I share myinsights on leadership, on
emotional intelligence, which issomething I think that is a
real silver bullet.
(10:19):
It's a real magic If you canread it, learn it, understand it
, apply it in your daily life,then you'll see a huge change in
how you lead and actually thesort of life you have, the sort
of conversations that you canhave.
So that's me.
Kyla Cofer (10:35):
Wow.
So there's a lot to unpackthere.
You have such an amazing storyand I love what you said where
your accountants are put on thisI don't remember how you said
it the accountants are put onthis earth to look at numbers on
a calculator.
But you took it and youunderstood that it was the
public speaking was just a skillthat you had to learn, that it
wasn't something to be terrifiedof.
I mean, you were terrified whenyou first started, but that you
(10:57):
embraced that it was a skill tolearn and if you just thought
of it that way, as a skill, yougot better and better at it.
And now, I mean you just weretelling me before we started
that you just came from aconference where you were doing
like 12 presentations orsomething crazy.
You really embraced that.
Sharon Critchlow (11:13):
Absolutely, and I've stood on some of the
biggest stages in the UK andactually quite a few ones in
Europe as well just basicallysharing my knowledge, showing my
experience and sharingparticularly my insights on
emotional intelligence.
But it is a skill, all of thesethings.
When you look at a baby and youthink what a wonderful
potential that baby has, why dowe think differently when we
(11:34):
look at ourselves?
Because we're even better thanthat baby, because we're like
that baby plus a load ofexperience, and yet for some
reason, we can look at ourselvesand think I'm constrained in
some way or I have less to offerin some way, and yet I don't
know a person who will hold asmall child in their hands and
not think that they couldachieve anything that they want.
Kyla Cofer (11:54):
Oh, wow, yeah, that's a beautiful way of
looking at it.
I remember when my kids wereborn and looking at them and
being like, well, I mean of then, the complete feeling of
overwhelm, like how am I goingto do this?
Was this idea of they reallyhave like this blank slate?
They have the whole world opento them.
They can do anything.
Yeah, we do as an adult.
We're like, well, but I can'tdo that.
Other people can do that, Ican't.
(12:14):
But they're really.
Things are just skills.
We just have to learn theskills and decide what's
interesting enough to put thework in to keep going Absolutely
.
Sharon Critchlow (12:23):
And so I mean my life.
I've learned so many differenttypes of skills and they just
all build on to each other,really.
So I can now publish books.
I write books.
I left school, well, I couldbarely write anything at all, so
this is a skill I've learned.
You know, you practice, you geta bit better, get some feedback
.
You don't take it personally,you only you try it again.
And it's exactly the same withanything.
(12:46):
But you've got to know what itis you want, and I think this is
something that people get onthe treadmill and they keep
moving and they keep headingtowards a goal that's perhaps
given to them, or an obviousgoal.
You want to get promoted, youwant to climb the corporate
ladder and be this or be that,but what I would say is that the
careers that really shine, of,where people have taken a look
(13:08):
at themselves and said, okay,these are the things that I want
to have, that I want to sharewith the world.
So, whatever role I do, thishas to.
I have to have this somewhere,and these are the things that I
want to improve in me.
So I'm willing to not be sogood at those until I learn it,
so that equal element ofchallenge and contribution, and
(13:29):
when you do that, you bring yourbest self to the whole
situation, and that's whencareers really fly.
Kyla Cofer (13:35):
Absolutely A couple specific things I want to talk
about, but one last thing onthis is that I have noticed,
when I am jealous of somebody,when I think, well, that's not
fair, that they can be like that, that really just means that
that's something that I have adesire for, that I'm trying to
hide for some reason, or I'mpushing away or making an excuse
for so, when I'm like, oh, I'mjealous of her for being on
(13:57):
doing seven, present 12presentations at this conference
, really what it means is I wantto be doing 12 presentations at
a conference, so I need to beputting myself in a position
where I can be doing that,thinking about jealousy in terms
of not negative, but maybe moreof a it's telling you what you
want.
Sharon Critchlow (14:15):
Yeah, it's a point of reflection.
We're all mirrors of each otherand I often think that when you
find somebody very irritatingin the things that they do, then
is it actually that you do itand you dislike it in yourself.
Kyla Cofer (14:28):
And it's the same sort of thing 100%.
Sharon Critchlow (14:31):
It's the same sort of thing 100%.
And the thing is, the more openyou are, the more you go out
there and put yourself forwardfor things.
Then I don't get everyconference I apply for, every
every med role that I apply for,but I often think that if you
put yourself out there enough,the right thing will come to you
(14:51):
.
What you are seeking is alsoseeking you.
Kyla Cofer (14:55):
Well, you know, that's not what we were going to
talk about today, but I reallyneeded to hear that.
So I'm sure somebody else did,because that is what, something
that I've been thinking aboutthis week, and I guess that's
really why I love interviewingpeople from all over the world,
because I've realized how muchwe are alike and how much we
need each other.
I just think it's reallybeautiful, and I love talking
about leadership, because wereally do need each other as
leaders and we need the peoplethat we lead and we need people
(15:17):
who lead us, and we need all ofthat and, man, I really needed
to hear that today.
So, thank you.
But I want to talk about yourboard experience, because you
mentioned that you have been onthe board of the ACCA ACCA is
that right?
That's right.
So you've been on the board.
Can you talk about what it'slike to be on a board?
That's the overall question.
I've got some more specificquestions, but let's just start
(15:38):
there.
Like, what is it like to be ona board?
Sharon Critchlow (15:40):
Okay.
So I've sat on the board in anumber of different roles.
So in its basic terms, a boardwill have a chair and the chair
will decide the agenda.
So if you want to put somethingyou think that the board should
change or look at or discuss orwhatever, then what you need to
do is go through the chair, inwhichever format that they say.
(16:01):
These things often have comewith a lot of papers.
So always read your papers wellin advance and get some
questions and be curious abouthow things could change.
And don't assume that you knoweverything, but assume that you
know enough to question whetherare we this or are we that?
Are we happy with this?
What does this look like?
How does this look like indifferent lenses?
(16:22):
And that will differ dependingon the role that you have on the
board.
So if you are in an executiverole, so it's your day job.
In effect, it's what you do allthe time.
And when you're not on theboard at a board meeting, then
you're actually running thedepartment that reports into
that board.
Then your job there normally isto bring to the board the
(16:43):
things that need decisions on,and you would normally do a
paper which you then present tothe board and then the board
discusses it and gives you theanswer that you are seeking.
It's the can I have funding forthis type of question?
It's the we need to make adecision on a new piece of
software, research, that is thisor this.
But there are these upsides anddownsides and the board needs
(17:03):
to decide.
It's those sorts of things.
When you're a non executivedirector which I am now because
I've been an executive directorof finance when you are a non
executive director, it'sdifferent.
It is a part time role.
When I am not there, I don'thave a department to run.
My job is to be a criticalfriend and that means I'm there
to be a mentor to the people onthe board.
(17:25):
So when they think, actually,you've got a lot of experience
in this area and we're trying tomove into that area, we don't
really know anything, thenthat's when I can take them to
one side and they can pick mybrains on things, or I can look
at things on their behalf, or Ican answer their questions where
I can, or I can point them inthe direction of other
professionals or other people inmy network who can help them.
(17:46):
But I'm also there to becritical.
So I am there to ask thedifficult questions because my
job does not rely on it.
My job relies on askingdifficult questions.
So I'm there to talk about theelephant in the room.
I'm there to give the biggerperspective of the world,
because when you're doing a job24 seven it's the minutiae of
(18:08):
everything you've had to dealwith is where your focus tends
to be, and what your nonexecutive directors do is they
widen that focus and they say,okay, I appreciate our policy is
this, but how does that look tothe outside world?
How does that look when youlook at this legislation about
to come in?
How does that look in thecontext of environmental, social
(18:29):
governance, for example?
So it's to actually take thosethings and expand everyone's
viewpoint on it.
So, even if we don't have theanswer, the things to ask the
question and then we may allseek the answer.
So on a board you will havelots of different people with
different skills.
You'll have finance, you mayhave human resources, a people
person, you may have somebodyfrom technology and then you may
(18:53):
have more general non executivedirectors as well.
So the size of the board willdepend an awful lot on the size
of the business and the placethat the business is in its
growth cycle.
So if it's a technologybusiness, you'll probably have
non executive directors that areused to it growing businesses
in technology, for example.
So when I go on to boards, myrole normally is they say, oh,
(19:16):
there's a finance person whoknows all about these things,
which I do, and so they normallytake me on to say, to look at
the finance things and tochallenge the accountant as they
come through with the numbersand their assumptions and do we
think the cash flow lookscorrect, etc.
And yes, I do all of that.
But that doesn't mean to saythat I keep my mouth shut for
the rest of the gear.
(19:36):
So the rest of the time when I'mnot doing that, I look at it as
though I were a member of thepublic and I ask the questions
that are, if you like, a bitmore, maybe a bit more basic,
less technical than I ask in mynormal technical role, but that
are very useful when it comes tothem positioning themselves for
their clients.
So they'll say, oh, we're goingto do this, we're going to,
(19:58):
we're going to launch newproduct is going up on this
thing, it's going up on thatthing, and I'll look at it and
I'll think that's great.
But that product's kind ofprobably aimed at the over 50s,
and so I'll ask the question,who's this aimed at?
And I'll say, yeah, it's aimedat the over 50s.
I think that's great, and itrelies on technology just all of
your market, they all able toaccess technology.
(20:19):
Now there's a question, andmaybe they are for what they're
doing or maybe they're not, andthat's something they have to
think about.
So those are the sorts ofthings that that we do as non
executive directors.
Kyla Cofer (20:30):
I'm curious did you go through any specific training
about being on a board, being aboard member?
Because I mean you had all yourtraining from being an
executive director and being infinance, but did you have any
specific training about how,what it looks like to be on a
board?
Because that's a little bitdifferent.
Sharon Critchlow (20:45):
It is.
And so I had some training,some formal, a little bit of
formal training, but a lot of itcame actually out of my
professional life, professionalqualification, because as an
accountant, part of what you'retrained to do is to do things at
board level.
So we're trained to answerthose sorts of levels of
questions.
So it became very easy to walkinto a boardroom and, yes, my
(21:06):
chosen specialist subject isyour accounts and, yes, I can
tell you anything you want toknow.
But there are organisations outthere and in fact I volunteer
for one in the UK which helps to, helps people to become board
ready, so helps them tounderstand the protocols on a
board, helps them to understandwhat would be appropriate, maybe
to ask them what's notappropriate, how to get people
(21:28):
around to your way of thinkingor to get your point across,
because of course they're allbusy people and they've all set
themselves on a certain course.
And if you look at somethingand you think I'm just not
convinced, then you need to findyour voice and actually say
that.
So an element of confidence, ifyou like, has to come out in
(21:48):
you that says I'm not sayingyou've got to slam your fist on
the desk and make demands, butyou do need to make sure that
you are heard where you need tobe heard, because that is your
job to do.
I learned a good basic frombeing an accountant and from
understanding governance, whichis what we do.
And, of course, a board.
That's what a board is.
It's about governance.
(22:08):
It's about making sure that theorganisation is run with
integrity and to the values thatit has decided it has and in
line with the shareholdersexpectations.
So this is that's the board'srole is to make sure that all of
these stakeholders are met,that the legal requirements are
met.
You know all of those things.
(22:29):
So it is a governance positionand as an ACCA accountant, I was
taught how to do that, and Idid then sit with a lot of other
non-executive directors andattend some calls and some
courses online, but where theywere discussing how they did
their job and boards that theyhad been on and things that they
had overcome and how they dealtwith difficult situations on
(22:51):
boards.
And obviously then you learnfrom their experience as well,
and I'd say I'd like, movinginto anything that's a little
bit different expand yournetwork.
So I started networking withlots of other non-executive
directors so that I would havepeople that I could contact.
If I wasn't sure how would youapproach this situation, what
(23:12):
would be?
Is it me?
On a no names basis, I've foundthis situation, I'm not sure.
What do you think.
And so it's been a bit of both.
It's been a bit of formallearning and actually quite a
lot of networking and gettingout there and being curious.
Kyla Cofer (23:29):
Hey leaders, have you ever considered starting
your very own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience in creating
this leadership school podcast.
I have grown my business, Ihave learned, exponentially.
I've had a ton of fun and myconfidence level has increased
tenfold by continuing to show upand put on a really great show.
(23:54):
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self-doubt, would
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do is, right now, go to
podcasterschool.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
(24:15):
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule a call with me and
let's check.
I want to hear about what yourpotential ideas are and what
would make you interested instarting a podcast.
It's such a fantastic way toreally grow, increase your
knowledge, your business andreally get yourself out into the
world.
Take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
(24:35):
get started on your very ownshow.
Susie Reigns (24:41):
Are you a medical professional eager to start your
own business, but feelingoverwhelmed and unsure where to
begin?
Introducing Starting a BusinessSimplified the podcast that's
here to help.
I'm Susie Reigns, your host,and I'll guide you through the
transition, step by step, fromsuccess stories to valuable
(25:01):
business tips.
I've got it all covered.
Tune in now on your favoritepodcast platform and simplify
starting a business yeahabsolutely.
Kyla Cofer (25:11):
What would you say to somebody who's considering a
board position, but it seems Idon't know it seems overwhelming
, or it seems like too much work, or they're just scared of it.
What are some of the advantagesfor being on a board?
Because you've talked aboutsome of that generally, but
maybe we can be more specific,because I want to talk about how
positive this experience is.
It's a great thing to be on aboard, but it is a lot of
(25:32):
responsibility, so do you?
Sharon Critchlow (25:34):
want to change the world or do you want to
change the world for that groupof people that that board and
that company influences or sellsto or serves?
Because if you do, then get onthe board, get on your big girl
pants and get on with it,because this is you know it's
actually.
(25:55):
It can be more frustrating tohave board decisions come down
to you that you have to thenimplement where you know deep
down, it's probably not theright thing for your consumers,
your patients, your customers,your whatever's.
But the board has said we'redoing it like this and so you're
doing it like that, and thatcan be very, very frustrating.
(26:16):
The good thing with being aroundthe board table is you, if you
can find your voice and be heard, is you can tell them.
You can say I disagree,actually I think our customers
need this and this is why Ithink they need.
This is the evidence I havethat they need this and you can
influence how that organizationis and you can influence it for
(26:36):
your customers.
You can influence it for yourstaff.
You have the opportunity to sitthere and say actually, I think
they deserve a pay rise,actually, I think we have to
find the money for them to havean extra three days holiday a
year.
Actually, everybody else in oursector is giving free training
on this.
We need to give them freetraining.
You can actually advocate foryour colleagues from this
(26:58):
position, you can advocate foryour sector from this position
and you can advocate foryourself a lot better from that
position, because the peoplemaking the decisions are sitting
right next to you and in frontof you.
So I would say that if youthink it's a bit overwhelming,
it can be even more overwhelmingto receive, when you know
(27:20):
what's right for theorganization to receive
information down to you whereyou're thinking that's just not
going to work.
How am I going to make thatwork?
I don't believe this is theright thing.
So I would say that that's aless comfortable position than
being one of the people whomakes those choices.
Kyla Cofer (27:38):
So how do you, when you're on that board, how do
you, I think this goes back tothat.
It's a skill that needs to belearned and it's just a skill
you have to work on and grow in,approach conflicts in the board
and that I've got this idea butit's been shot down a dozen
times.
Or I want to advocate formyself but I'm getting put into
a corner and ignored and thatkind of thing.
(28:00):
Everybody's like oh, it's thatgirl again speaking up.
It's her, it's just her, it'sjust him again.
How do we put ourselves in thatwhere we can listen and be
heard?
Sharon Critchlow (28:10):
So what I would say is sometimes things
are a matter of timing.
So sometimes you have beenheard but you don't realize
you've been heard because it'salmost been dismissed and you
think you're not listening.
We have to do this, and if yougo and speak to the chair,
chances are that there'll be anopportunity where they'll say
yeah, I know what you're sayingand I'm not disagreeing.
(28:32):
We just can't do it in thisfinancial year.
So it's then that you say well,can we put it as an agenda item
for this time next year todiscuss it, so that it is at
least not forgotten?
So one of the tactics I wouldsay is, if you feel that you're
not been heard, is to go andtalk to the chair and say I feel
I've not been heard and I wouldlike to table this to be
(28:53):
reexamined in the future.
The second thing I'd say isalways go very, very well
prepared over prepared.
If you think it's going to be adifficult sell, so get all your
evidence.
What's everyone else sayingabout it, what's everyone else
doing about it, what surveyshave you done, what information
do you have?
And put it forward to think ofthe win-win.
(29:14):
So, especially if it's going tocost money, why do they want to
do it?
Why now?
Is this going to make us morecompetitive?
Is this going to make us uniquein the market?
Is this going to stop all ourpeople from leaving?
Just think about what's the whyin this.
Where's the compelling reason,why?
And sometimes you've got to do abit of a selling job, because
(29:36):
not everyone can see what youcan see, and sometimes you do
have to kind of put your casetogether and say and present it
maybe as a little story thatsays, "so.
I found this situation and thenI did a bit of research and
I've come to this conclusion andnow I'd like to share that with
you and I think we shoulddiscuss it.
" and take them on that journey,but be prepared that they may
(30:00):
not be ready to do that wholejourney now.
It may end up back as an agendaitem in the future, but at
least what I would say is if youthink it's going to be
difficult, do it that way.
Another way I would say, ifit's time critical, I've been on
board to which it's been timecritical.
I've been on boards wheremergers have had to happen
fairly quickly for financialreasons, and this isn't
(30:23):
something that peoplenecessarily initially around the
table, thought was even anagenda item.
So another thing you can do isto go and talk to each of your
board members individuallybehind the scenes and explain
the situation to them, explainwhat you've discovered, why you
think this is important, and sayI'd just like to get some
soundings from you.
(30:43):
I'd just like to see what youthink, because, again, not
everybody will show all of theircolours around the table at the
same time, but if they knowthat more than one person's got
kind of thinking the same thing,you're more likely to get an
idea as to whether you have aheadwind that people are going
to support that thing or whatthe problems are.
Because again, somebody mightcome back to you and say we
looked at that last year andthis was what happened.
(31:05):
And you might look at it and gooh, fair enough, you know, okay
, I'm okay with that.
So, yeah, don't be too afraid togo to other board members and
say can I just run something byyou and get some soundings,
because that will help you toput that case together and see
how viable it is and how muchsupport you're likely to get.
So those are the twonon-confrontational kind of
(31:27):
board methods that I'vecertainly used in the past.
I've also used the slamminghand on the desk and going no,
and then crossing my arms andgoing and saying nothing at all,
but that did tend to happenmore as an executive director
when it was a legal issue.
Can we just no?
Kyla Cofer (31:46):
You know I love that the no is a complete sentence
and sometimes it just needs tobe said and you can't budge.
And the shutting up, theclosing your mouth and not
saying another word just letsthat no kind of set in.
Sharon Critchlow (31:58):
Absolutely.
So, yes, there's a time for no.
Kyla Cofer (32:01):
Well, so tell me, Sharon, when, if you are in
entry level or mid level of yourcareer and being on a board is
like the ultimate goal, thinkback to where you were.
It might not have beensomething you were thinking
about when you were 23, you know, but if you were kind of more
in the middle of your career,getting started out, what would
you say to somebody if that wastheir ultimate goal of, like, I
want to be on the board, that'sthe ultimate position?
(32:23):
What can somebody do now toreally start preparing
themselves for that role andputting themselves in a position
where they would get that role.
Sharon Critchlow (32:33):
So what I would say is you need to get
some experience, and the easiestway to get some experience is
to become a trustee of a charityor a not-for-profit
organization in your region.
So, whether that is some, youknow the Children's Scouts
Association, whether that's yourlocal church, whether it's you
know all of these types oforganizations, because what they
(32:55):
will do is they will have boardmeetings.
They will have meetings todiscuss things and you will see,
sometimes you may meet a reallygood chair of it and sometimes
you might meet a not so goodchair of one.
But you will actually get tosit around board meetings as a
trustee and you'll get to hearwhat goes on and you'll get some
experience of being in thatposition.
And also then, when you go fora job on a board, you'll be able
(33:18):
to say that you already havesome board experience.
So you're already used togetting the minutes from the
previous meeting and lookingthrough, getting the papers and
understanding them and thinkingabout how you're going to put
your questions forward.
So being a trustee on a charityor a not-for-profit or that sort
of thing.
So the local church, the localschool, you know parent teachers
kind of thing, as we call themin the UK.
(33:40):
Being on those things puts youin those decision-making bodies
and decision-making positionswhere you will learn a lot.
You'll learn a lot fromeverybody else around the table.
You'll grow your network fromeveryone else around the table
and also they're the people whoare going to give you a
reference when you go for thatjob, because the chair of this
thing is going to be the onewho's seen you in action around
(34:03):
this board table.
So I would say volunteer,perfect, all right?
Kyla Cofer (34:09):
Well, I want to talk about a little bit too.
One of the things that youmentioned early on in our
conversation was the emotionalintelligence of a leader,
because that's something thatreally matters to you personally
and that's something you'veinvested a lot in teaching
others and doing.
Let's talk about that for aminute, because it's kind of
actually been the theme of thisseason and the podcast, as we
(34:30):
were talking about emotionalintelligence and why that
matters.
But when you say emotionalintelligence, what are you
meaning and tell us about howyou teach others this and how
you emphasize it in leadership.
Taking
Sharon Critchlow (34:45):
emotional intelligence right back to the
start, so right back to the1990s, Daniel Goldman noticed
that not everybody who got aHarvard degree ended up with a
big career, and he wanted toanalyze why some people did
really well and some peopledidn't.
And basically what he hadascertained is that technical
knowledge wasn't quite enough.
You needed to have a bit of apeople skill, and that people
(35:08):
skill is what he calledemotional intelligence.
And the emotional intelligencepart of this, if you like, is
around how you respond to things, how you use your emotions, how
aware you are of your emotions,and then what you do next.
Because people aren't liketextbooks, they're not like
maths equations.
You know you don't have Johnplus Zoe equals Tamara.
(35:31):
This does not happen.
What happens is you geteveryone's got their own view.
It's like herding cats and soactually getting things out of
people.
Understanding people, whateverpeople's responses to you won't
be what you expect.
Sometimes they could be reallyrude, and then you've still got
to work with them.
You know, it's all of thesethings learning this skill,
being able to jump over thatbarrier that says actually that
(35:53):
was a bit rude, and then movingforward from that, is where you
can then bring people togetherand that's where you can get
consensus and that is whatleadership is.
It's about taking people on ajourney, and you can't take
people on a journey if you'retoo easily offended.
So this isn't about having toomuch of a thick skin.
This is about reallyunderstanding what upsets you.
(36:14):
Earlier we were saying aboutjealousy, about that's not fair.
That person just do this and Idon't get to do this.
I think we all have a bit ofthat from time to time.
But what it means is that istapping into an emotion, and
understanding that emotion as itoccurs means you can do
something about it.
So I've seen people, whenthey're jealous, bite back at
people and try and be littlethat somebody else's achievement
(36:37):
because, oh, it's not all thatand it's because they wanted it
and they either didn't achieveit or actually they didn't even
put them out themselves outthere to do it in the first
place.
This is what normally happens.
So it's that understanding youremotions, because if you can
understand your emotion, thenyou have this wonderful
opportunity to influence theoutcome and make it a win-win
(37:00):
for everybody.
So I'll give you an example ofsomething that happened to me
when one of my buttons werepushed, as the younger
generation says I had atriggering incident.
So a few years ago I wasmanning a stand at one of these
conference things and a ladycame over to me and said how can
you stand there when you lookso fat?
So what can
Kyla Cofer (37:20):
I say?
I'm sorry.
Right now you see my jaw likeon the floor.
I cannot believe somebody wouldever ever say that.
I'm just like.
I need to hear the rest of thestory and not interrupt you.
But I'm just in, I had to goout on stage after that.
Sharon Critchlow (37:31):
Knowing this, I've now been fat-shamed.
So yeah, so 27-year-old Sharonwould have probably slapped her,
because 27-year-old Sharon wasa bit feisty.
47-year-old Sharon would haveprobably been in tears.
But thankfully she met47-year-old Sharon who looked at
her and said what is it aboutfat that you don't like?
(37:53):
And she said well, I'm nowherenear as fat as you and I can
barely leave the house becauseof it.
So now she's gone from beingsomebody who's highly offensive
to somebody who needs a bit ofcare and attention from me.
So I said should I come downand have a chat about that?
And listening to what she toldme just made me think well,
(38:15):
actually, you know what?
This is nothing.
We're all mirrors.
She's seen me and she's just,you know, let it all out and
that's fine.
But my response to that was aquestion and I would always say
that if you're in thosechallenging situations, the
emotionally intelligent responseis to ask the question, is to
ask more information.
So from that I reallyunderstood that she had a real
(38:38):
problem with her body.
And to look at her, I'm likenothing wrong with you.
From where I am you have aperfectly healthy looking body.
But for her that wasn't thebody she saw.
So actually, what she neededwas my empathy.
She didn't need to be shoutedat, she certainly didn't need to
be slapped.
But this is where you can get towith this and, of course, when
you're around a board table,people will say things that can
(39:00):
be a bit cutting sometimes andyou have to decide what your
response to that's gonna be.
You're gonna go hide in acorner, even though you know
that you have to hold the lineon this because it's a legal
requirement, so it's somethingthat's really important or are
you going to acknowledge thatthat's happened, take care of
yourself for the fact thatthat's happened, decide what
you're going to do with that,but actually then choose your
(39:22):
response.
So another classic one that mybusiness partner often says if
somebody says something that's abit rude or out of order, she
says can you say that againplease?
Because you see, two thirds ofpeople, only one third of people
actually understand theiremotions as they're occurring.
Which means two thirds of thepeople that you meet, it's going
on in their head and it's outtheir mouth before they've even
(39:43):
really thought about it.
So when you challenge them andsay, can you say that again
please?
They say well, actually, what Ireally meant was, and then you
actually get.
You get the toned down version,don't you get the more polite
version, you get a half apologymost of the time, you get the
well sorry, what I really meantwas this.
And so you actually then havethe opportunity to have a
(40:04):
conversation, as opposed to justhaving to take a slap and go
for it.
So the reason I think emotionalintelligence is so important is
because it's a good life skillto have in any form of
relationship, but particularlywhen you're leading,
particularly when you're havingto deal with situations where
people are going to throw theirstuff at you, that you need to
recognize what is your stuff andwhat is other people's stuff.
(40:26):
Recognize if it is a buttonthat's being pushed in you and
do something about it.
Because you can do somethingabout it.
You can reframe things, you candecide to get therapy for it.
If it keeps happening, youdecide whatever it is that you
want to do.
But one thing that is I'd foundfor me is that, as a personal
development tool, emotionalintelligence because it covers
(40:47):
the areas of self-awareness,self-management, social
awareness and relationshipmanagement is that it has made
me a lot more confident to beable to deal with difficult
situations because I just seepeople as being people on a
journey and I accept thatsometimes they will just they
will throw their reaction at yourather than a thought-through
response at you.
Kyla Cofer (41:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm just sitting here thinking.
I've been talking about thisall season, like all summer.
All year long we've beentalking about emotional
intelligence and I think thereason I talk about it so much
because I'm sitting hereimagining what our entire world,
our country, our community, ourfamily relationships be like if
we all responded to each otherwith this type of empathy, with
(41:34):
a question, with a can you saythat again, or tell me more
about that?
What do you mean when you saythat If we're bold enough to
approach responses that wayinstead of our immediate
emotional reactions, and if weteach our children this and the
world comes up and changes thatway, our world will look
completely different.
(41:54):
We would accomplish more.
We would work towards goalsinstead of arguments.
I believe this is such animportant and crucial part of
not just leadership but humanityand being human and maturity
and learning to have thatcourage and boldness.
In a way, boldness doesn't haveto mean rudeness, boldness
(42:17):
doesn't mean louder.
Boldness just means the courageto respond in a mature way that
says tell me what you mean whenyou say that.
Can you say that again?
Those are such good questionsthat you ask and that just dug
deeper.
And if the woman who said thatto you, and then for these other
stories of just now, I'm seeingyou as a person and I'm not
(42:41):
seeing your words.
It's just so, so important andit changes everything about the
way we lead.
Sharon Critchlow (42:48):
I absolutely agree, and the thing is that I'm
very fortunate that I'm afemale leader in the time that I
live in now.
If I had been a female leader100 years ago, I might have had
to have got my megaphone and myshouty voice out.
But we are heard in differentways now, and this is that the
system we have is still notperfect.
(43:09):
There aren't enough women onboards, there aren't enough, as
it were, gentle approaches tohow we make decisions or how we
bring people together, but it'sstill quite testosterone-driven
in places, and so we have tolearn that it's to get a little
bit of a thick skin to actuallypart some of this stuff that we
(43:30):
feel personally offended by andthink okay, but let's just see
if I'm right on this, let's aska few more questions and let's
see if, but with them talking tous, they come to a different
conclusion.
And quite often that is thecase, because you're having a
dialogue, you're not just havingto accept what is thrown at you
.
Kyla Cofer (43:49):
Absolutely.
Sharon, our time is wrapping uphere.
As we wrap up, is thereanything that you wanna make
sure people hear today?
Just about well anything.
I can be specific but, is thereanything you wanna make sure
that people walk away?
And if there's one thingsomeone took away from our
conversation today, what wouldyou like that to be?
Sharon Critchlow (44:06):
One of the things that people ask me is
what is a leader?
Or how do you know if you're aleader?
And what I would say is thatmore of us are leaders than we
think of.
It's obvious if you're on aboard and then you're a leader,
but lots of us are leaders indifferent ways.
So I would say is anybodyfollowing you?
(44:26):
Does anybody rely on yourdecision making?
And if you're thinking, well,I'm a mum, so, yes, well, great,
you're a leader of your family.
There are lots of different waysto lead and there's lots of
different ways that you canpractice your leadership, and
don't discount any of them asbeing a lesser thing than being
on a board.
It's all learning, it's alltraining you for that position
(44:47):
that you want.
So be bold, decide what youwant, because if I can do it,
quite frankly, anybody can.
You just need to have a clearvision of what you want.
And the great thing is is partof your brain group, of a
particular activating system,and it goes and seeks out what
it is that you want.
So it's a pattern spotter.
So if you say, for example, Iwant to go to yoga on a Tuesday,
(45:09):
you'll find you'll be in thelocal convenience store and
there'll be a little thing upand go, look, they do yoga on
Tuesday.
I hadn't spotted that before.
Because there's a bit of yourbrain that goes oh yeah, there,
it is.
Same as if you like red shoes,like I do, I go out there, I see
red shoes everywhere and yetanybody else go oh, that's
really rare, nobody has redshoes.
And I look at it and my braingoes oh look, red shoes, red
shoes, red shoes.
(45:29):
So get clear on what you wantand go for it, because at the
end of the day, even if it's adisaster, even if it's a mess,
you'll learn something and thenyou'll do it differently next
time.
Because this is not the dressrehearsal, this is the main act
and you're about to step out onthat stage.
So go for it.
Kyla Cofer (45:49):
That's really really such a so inspiring.
Thank you so much, Sharon.
I'm not asking or contributingas many questions, because I'm
just soaking it in and just sofeeling empowered and inspired
and I really just appreciatethat.
Sharon, how can our listenersfind you and work with you and
follow
Sharon Critchlow (46:02):
you?
So my name is Sharon Critchlow,I am on LinkedIn and my
business is Discover Your Bounce.
So we are discoveryourbounce.
com.
I'm out there on all the usualsocial channels.
Kyla Cofer (46:14):
Awesome, excellent.
We'll make sure to have linksto all those in our show notes
and make sure we can find youand connect with you.
I am so appreciate your timeand your stories and your just
authenticity and sharing allthis wisdom with us.
I'm just really grateful foryour time today.
Thank you so much for joiningme here.
Sharon Critchlow (46:29):
Thank you for inviting me.
It's been really exciting.
Kyla Cofer (46:35):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interview's over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed, more casual
(46:57):
conversation.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/ leaderships chool and for$6.50 a month you can support
(47:21):
this podcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(47:42):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/ leadership school where I'masking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(48:03):
in your podcast feed.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
For me, integrity is about your own
deepest values, and so it'sliving to those deepest values.
If you had to wear a placardwith your actions versus how you
feel, would you be in alignmentor would you be ashamed?
Kyla Cofer (00:23):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal Teach you how to be anextraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
(00:50):
I hope you're having afantastic, incredible day.
I am about to make it betterwith a really inspiring
conversation.
Today I'm talking with SharonCritchlow.
She is the director at Discoveryour Bounce, which is a
personal development andworkplace wellness provider.
So Sharon is actually anaccountant.
She's had over 20 years ofexperience as an accountant and
(01:11):
she took that experience andused it to become a board member
.
She's been on multiple boardsand she helps people on boards.
She is now a continual memberof the board for the ACCA.
It's a global accountancyprovider.
She also is a bestsellingauthor.
She wrote the bestselling bookLove your Life 100 Tips for More
Peace and Happiness.
She's a speaker.
(01:31):
She shares her story and shemakes a couple of really good
jokes in our conversation aboutwhat it means to be an
accountant and a public speaker,but she loves talking about
emotional intelligence.
So in our conversation today,we're really talking about three
different things.
We're talking about being aboard member.
What does it mean to be on aboard?
What does it look like?
How do you do it?
How do you approach differentsituations?
(01:53):
She shares her experiences withthat and just does some
training on that.
Then part two is we talk aboutemotional intelligence, which is
really interesting.
This has been really a theme ofour podcast this season, this
year, or maybe the entirepodcast, because of how much I
love talking about emotionalintelligence.
In our conversationspecifically, she tells a
jaw-dropping story and in thatstory she gives two key
(02:17):
questions and these twoquestions really get into the
deep of how do you respond tothings as a mature person in a
way that promotes humanity.
It's really beautiful.
I encourage you to listen allthe way to get to this
conversation.
Make sure.
Our part three is our Patreonconversation.
So after our interview, we havea more casual laid-back
(02:39):
conversation where we talk aboutwhat is integrity, what is
balance, and we just chat for alittle while just casually.
In that I was really reallyinspired by a beautiful
description, for me personally,of my perfect life.
If you want to hear what myperfect life is, you need to
jump on over to our Patreon atpatreon.
com/ leadership school andyou'll get to hear Sharon and
(03:01):
describe my perfect life.
It's one that she's living.
It's really interesting how weturn the conversation there.
Make sure to join us.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Leadership School Podcast
.
It's always a pleasure andhonor to share these stories
with you and share thesejourneys and bring you inspiring
leaders from around the world.
I'm really grateful for youjoining me on Leadership School
(03:21):
Podcast.
I'm really excited to hear yourstory.
I think we have a reallyinteresting topic, so I would
love for you if you could startus out by telling us your story,
telling us who you are, whatbrought you here and, I guess,
what qualifies you to talk aboutleadership.
But we know that you'requalified.
I'm just curious about yourstory.
Sharon Critchlow (03:36):
So my name is Sharon Critchlow and I grew up
in the southwest of England in avery lovely holiday sort of
area by the sea.
It wasn't the sort of placewhere leaders you would think
spring from, but as I know now,leaders come from all sorts of
different places.
I didn't leave school withgreat academic qualifications,
(03:56):
but I was very fortunate in thatI discovered ACCA, the
Association of CharteredCertified Accountants, which is
an accountancy body, and theyenable you to take a master's
level qualification but to do itby distance learning, to do it
remotely, you can do it throughuniversities.
There's lots of different openaccess ways of getting this
qualification.
(04:16):
And that's what I did.
And despite leaving school withnot very much, I qualified as
an accountant when I was 23.
And what that did is it gave methe opportunity to expand out
from this lovely little townwhere I grew up, where I would
look as I was making coffees forpeople in the coffee shop.
I would look out over the bayand see all the boats and think
(04:40):
I'll never be able to afford oneof those, I'll never be able to
have that sort of lifestyle,but through that qualification
and through my career since,I've ended up very much being
able to grow into that sort ofrole and that sort of space, and
whenever I need to get my feetback on the ground, I go back to
the place where that coffeeshop now is.
It's now a different coffeeshop, but it's still there and I
(05:03):
sit there and I have to look atthe same view and I get a bit
of perspective from where I'vecome from to where I am now.
What I did is I left that townthat had trained me to be an
accountant and I went to theother side of the county still a
very rural place and I learneda few more things about
accountancy.
I became a manager.
One of the things I learnedmore than anything else is how
(05:24):
not to be a manager.
So I think this is probably oneof the first life lessons that
I learned about leadership isthat all of life is coaching.
Everything around you isteaching you something if you
pay attention, and it wasn'tuntil fairly recently.
I actually met leaders that Iwould say were great leaders.
Before that I met people whowere kind of getting by.
(05:44):
They were people with greattechnical ability who didn't
have great people ability Evenwhen they had their own
businesses.
That was a bit of a constraintfor them.
To be honest, it was aconstraint for them keeping
staff.
It was a constraint for themsometimes dealing with issues
with clients.
So I'd moved then up to Bristol, which is a fairly sizeable
(06:05):
city in the UK, and I decidedthat I was going to do something
different.
So still along accountancytheme, but not as an accountant.
I went into financial servicesquite low down to a fairly
straightforward admin job whileI thought about what I really
wanted to do.
And the thing is, the businesspart of my brain that
(06:25):
accountancy had woken upwouldn't shut up.
It kept looking at the business.
I was sitting in thinkingoperationally, we could do this,
we could do that.
So I went to the board withsome proposals and I became a
director of that company and Istayed there for 17 years and we
grew it from being a very smallbusiness to being a very good
seven figure mid-sized business.
(06:47):
I was in charge of complianceand so making sure that we were
legally right, and in financialservices in the UK that's quite
a task because there's a lot oflegality to get your business
through if you want to remainprofitable but you also want to
be on the right side of the law.
I was also in charge ofoperations and in charge of all
(07:07):
of our team, all of the hiringand firing, as it were, all of
the personal development for allof our people.
From there I sold out of thatbusiness in my mid 40s and
that's went into a reallyinteresting even more
interesting as if that wasinteresting enough as it was
when I'd moved to the big city Ididn't know anyone, I didn't
have any friends, so I thought Ineed a network, that's what I
need.
(07:27):
So I went back to ACCA to seewhat they were doing, and they
were doing some professionaldevelopment courses in Bristol
and I turned up to all of themand basically just met people
and learned things.
And they said you'll hear a lot.
Would you like to join thepanel?
And I'm like I have no ideawhat that is, but go on then.
And I'm so glad I did so.
(07:48):
There's another lesson inleadership to learn is step
outside your comfort zone a bitand try something a bit
different.
So this panel what it meant wasto be helping with putting
these courses together.
Who would be a good speaker,and things like this, and what
you'd have to do is, when we gotthis speaker, you would have to
turn up at the start of theevent and say today's speaker is
(08:11):
Joe Brown and he's speakingabout taxation and the coffee is
at 730.
And the problem is nobodywanted to do it.
Everybody was afraid becauseit's public speaking and it's
one of those things that peoplefear.
And accountants, you know,we're put on this planet to talk
to ourselves and look at acalculator, apparently, so it's
even worse trying to find avolunteer who wants to do that.
(08:32):
So I ended up doing it and Ican remember looking at this
basically not talking to thecrowd but talking to a piece of
paper and seeing this papershaking in my hand as I did it.
And I did it over and over andover again, and many years on
now I'm a conference speaker,but I can still remember how it
felt to step out in front of thesmall group of people, all of
(08:53):
which were lovely, most of whichare my friends.
I don't have to say the speakertoday is Joe and he's talking
about tax and be petrified.
But I love public speaking nowand I love getting the soft
skills and the people skills outthere to more and more
accountants, which is part of myreason for being, if you like.
(09:13):
So when I escaped from myprevious business, I didn't have
a plan, which is not very likeme.
I'm normally very much up forhave a plan, work towards your
plan, know where you're going inlife and I thought I would just
see what happened.
And what happened is I becamean executive director, which
I've now been for a couple ofdifferent businesses.
I also joined council at ACCAon the accountancy body, and
(09:35):
that is a wonderful privilege tobe voted into that position.
We have 250,000 members in 176countries and it's an open vote.
They can vote for who they wantto be at the top of the tree
and the organization and toagree strategy with the
executive team and hold theexecutive team into account.
And I am one of those people,and so I do feel hugely proud
(09:58):
and humbled that I would begiven that opportunity, which I
have now held for seven years.
So in addition to that, thereare other subcommittees at ACCA.
I've also sat on and continueto sit on, and that's basically
it.
So now I go out and I share myinsights on leadership, on
emotional intelligence, which issomething I think that is a
real silver bullet.
(10:19):
It's a real magic If you canread it, learn it, understand it
, apply it in your daily life,then you'll see a huge change in
how you lead and actually thesort of life you have, the sort
of conversations that you canhave.
So that's me.
Kyla Cofer (10:35):
Wow.
So there's a lot to unpackthere.
You have such an amazing storyand I love what you said where
your accountants are put on thisI don't remember how you said
it the accountants are put onthis earth to look at numbers on
a calculator.
But you took it and youunderstood that it was the
public speaking was just a skillthat you had to learn, that it
wasn't something to be terrifiedof.
I mean, you were terrified whenyou first started, but that you
(10:57):
embraced that it was a skill tolearn and if you just thought
of it that way, as a skill, yougot better and better at it.
And now, I mean you just weretelling me before we started
that you just came from aconference where you were doing
like 12 presentations orsomething crazy.
You really embraced that.
Sharon Critchlow (11:13):
Absolutely, and I've stood on some of the
biggest stages in the UK andactually quite a few ones in
Europe as well just basicallysharing my knowledge, showing my
experience and sharingparticularly my insights on
emotional intelligence.
But it is a skill, all of thesethings.
When you look at a baby and youthink what a wonderful
potential that baby has, why dowe think differently when we
(11:34):
look at ourselves?
Because we're even better thanthat baby, because we're like
that baby plus a load ofexperience, and yet for some
reason, we can look at ourselvesand think I'm constrained in
some way or I have less to offerin some way, and yet I don't
know a person who will hold asmall child in their hands and
not think that they couldachieve anything that they want.
Kyla Cofer (11:54):
Oh, wow, yeah, that's a beautiful way of
looking at it.
I remember when my kids wereborn and looking at them and
being like, well, I mean of then, the complete feeling of
overwhelm, like how am I goingto do this?
Was this idea of they reallyhave like this blank slate?
They have the whole world opento them.
They can do anything.
Yeah, we do as an adult.
We're like, well, but I can'tdo that.
Other people can do that, Ican't.
(12:14):
But they're really.
Things are just skills.
We just have to learn theskills and decide what's
interesting enough to put thework in to keep going Absolutely
.
Sharon Critchlow (12:23):
And so I mean my life.
I've learned so many differenttypes of skills and they just
all build on to each other,really.
So I can now publish books.
I write books.
I left school, well, I couldbarely write anything at all, so
this is a skill I've learned.
You know, you practice, you geta bit better, get some feedback
.
You don't take it personally,you only you try it again.
And it's exactly the same withanything.
(12:46):
But you've got to know what itis you want, and I think this is
something that people get onthe treadmill and they keep
moving and they keep headingtowards a goal that's perhaps
given to them, or an obviousgoal.
You want to get promoted, youwant to climb the corporate
ladder and be this or be that,but what I would say is that the
careers that really shine, of,where people have taken a look
(13:08):
at themselves and said, okay,these are the things that I want
to have, that I want to sharewith the world.
So, whatever role I do, thishas to.
I have to have this somewhere,and these are the things that I
want to improve in me.
So I'm willing to not be sogood at those until I learn it,
so that equal element ofchallenge and contribution, and
(13:29):
when you do that, you bring yourbest self to the whole
situation, and that's whencareers really fly.
Kyla Cofer (13:35):
Absolutely A couple specific things I want to talk
about, but one last thing onthis is that I have noticed,
when I am jealous of somebody,when I think, well, that's not
fair, that they can be like that, that really just means that
that's something that I have adesire for, that I'm trying to
hide for some reason, or I'mpushing away or making an excuse
for so, when I'm like, oh, I'mjealous of her for being on
(13:57):
doing seven, present 12presentations at this conference
, really what it means is I wantto be doing 12 presentations at
a conference, so I need to beputting myself in a position
where I can be doing that,thinking about jealousy in terms
of not negative, but maybe moreof a it's telling you what you
want.
Sharon Critchlow (14:15):
Yeah, it's a point of reflection.
We're all mirrors of each otherand I often think that when you
find somebody very irritatingin the things that they do, then
is it actually that you do itand you dislike it in yourself.
Kyla Cofer (14:28):
And it's the same sort of thing 100%.
Sharon Critchlow (14:31):
It's the same sort of thing 100%.
And the thing is, the more openyou are, the more you go out
there and put yourself forwardfor things.
Then I don't get everyconference I apply for, every
every med role that I apply for,but I often think that if you
put yourself out there enough,the right thing will come to you
(14:51):
.
What you are seeking is alsoseeking you.
Kyla Cofer (14:55):
Well, you know, that's not what we were going to
talk about today, but I reallyneeded to hear that.
So I'm sure somebody else did,because that is what, something
that I've been thinking aboutthis week, and I guess that's
really why I love interviewingpeople from all over the world,
because I've realized how muchwe are alike and how much we
need each other.
I just think it's reallybeautiful, and I love talking
about leadership, because wereally do need each other as
leaders and we need the peoplethat we lead and we need people
(15:17):
who lead us, and we need all ofthat and, man, I really needed
to hear that today.
So, thank you.
But I want to talk about yourboard experience, because you
mentioned that you have been onthe board of the ACCA ACCA is
that right?
That's right.
So you've been on the board.
Can you talk about what it'slike to be on a board?
That's the overall question.
I've got some more specificquestions, but let's just start
(15:38):
there.
Like, what is it like to be ona board?
Sharon Critchlow (15:40):
Okay.
So I've sat on the board in anumber of different roles.
So in its basic terms, a boardwill have a chair and the chair
will decide the agenda.
So if you want to put somethingyou think that the board should
change or look at or discuss orwhatever, then what you need to
do is go through the chair, inwhichever format that they say.
(16:01):
These things often have comewith a lot of papers.
So always read your papers wellin advance and get some
questions and be curious abouthow things could change.
And don't assume that you knoweverything, but assume that you
know enough to question whetherare we this or are we that?
Are we happy with this?
What does this look like?
How does this look like indifferent lenses?
(16:22):
And that will differ dependingon the role that you have on the
board.
So if you are in an executiverole, so it's your day job.
In effect, it's what you do allthe time.
And when you're not on theboard at a board meeting, then
you're actually running thedepartment that reports into
that board.
Then your job there normally isto bring to the board the
(16:43):
things that need decisions on,and you would normally do a
paper which you then present tothe board and then the board
discusses it and gives you theanswer that you are seeking.
It's the can I have funding forthis type of question?
It's the we need to make adecision on a new piece of
software, research, that is thisor this.
But there are these upsides anddownsides and the board needs
(17:03):
to decide.
It's those sorts of things.
When you're a non executivedirector which I am now because
I've been an executive directorof finance when you are a non
executive director, it'sdifferent.
It is a part time role.
When I am not there, I don'thave a department to run.
My job is to be a criticalfriend and that means I'm there
to be a mentor to the people onthe board.
(17:25):
So when they think, actually,you've got a lot of experience
in this area and we're trying tomove into that area, we don't
really know anything, thenthat's when I can take them to
one side and they can pick mybrains on things, or I can look
at things on their behalf, or Ican answer their questions where
I can, or I can point them inthe direction of other
professionals or other people inmy network who can help them.
(17:46):
But I'm also there to becritical.
So I am there to ask thedifficult questions because my
job does not rely on it.
My job relies on askingdifficult questions.
So I'm there to talk about theelephant in the room.
I'm there to give the biggerperspective of the world,
because when you're doing a job24 seven it's the minutiae of
(18:08):
everything you've had to dealwith is where your focus tends
to be, and what your nonexecutive directors do is they
widen that focus and they say,okay, I appreciate our policy is
this, but how does that look tothe outside world?
How does that look when youlook at this legislation about
to come in?
How does that look in thecontext of environmental, social
(18:29):
governance, for example?
So it's to actually take thosethings and expand everyone's
viewpoint on it.
So, even if we don't have theanswer, the things to ask the
question and then we may allseek the answer.
So on a board you will havelots of different people with
different skills.
You'll have finance, you mayhave human resources, a people
person, you may have somebodyfrom technology and then you may
(18:53):
have more general non executivedirectors as well.
So the size of the board willdepend an awful lot on the size
of the business and the placethat the business is in its
growth cycle.
So if it's a technologybusiness, you'll probably have
non executive directors that areused to it growing businesses
in technology, for example.
So when I go on to boards, myrole normally is they say, oh,
(19:16):
there's a finance person whoknows all about these things,
which I do, and so they normallytake me on to say, to look at
the finance things and tochallenge the accountant as they
come through with the numbersand their assumptions and do we
think the cash flow lookscorrect, etc.
And yes, I do all of that.
But that doesn't mean to saythat I keep my mouth shut for
the rest of the gear.
(19:36):
So the rest of the time when I'mnot doing that, I look at it as
though I were a member of thepublic and I ask the questions
that are, if you like, a bitmore, maybe a bit more basic,
less technical than I ask in mynormal technical role, but that
are very useful when it comes tothem positioning themselves for
their clients.
So they'll say, oh, we're goingto do this, we're going to,
(19:58):
we're going to launch newproduct is going up on this
thing, it's going up on thatthing, and I'll look at it and
I'll think that's great.
But that product's kind ofprobably aimed at the over 50s,
and so I'll ask the question,who's this aimed at?
And I'll say, yeah, it's aimedat the over 50s.
I think that's great, and itrelies on technology just all of
your market, they all able toaccess technology.
(20:19):
Now there's a question, andmaybe they are for what they're
doing or maybe they're not, andthat's something they have to
think about.
So those are the sorts ofthings that that we do as non
executive directors.
Kyla Cofer (20:30):
I'm curious did you go through any specific training
about being on a board, being aboard member?
Because I mean you had all yourtraining from being an
executive director and being infinance, but did you have any
specific training about how,what it looks like to be on a
board?
Because that's a little bitdifferent.
Sharon Critchlow (20:45):
It is.
And so I had some training,some formal, a little bit of
formal training, but a lot of itcame actually out of my
professional life, professionalqualification, because as an
accountant, part of what you'retrained to do is to do things at
board level.
So we're trained to answerthose sorts of levels of
questions.
So it became very easy to walkinto a boardroom and, yes, my
(21:06):
chosen specialist subject isyour accounts and, yes, I can
tell you anything you want toknow.
But there are organisations outthere and in fact I volunteer
for one in the UK which helps to, helps people to become board
ready, so helps them tounderstand the protocols on a
board, helps them to understandwhat would be appropriate, maybe
to ask them what's notappropriate, how to get people
(21:28):
around to your way of thinkingor to get your point across,
because of course they're allbusy people and they've all set
themselves on a certain course.
And if you look at somethingand you think I'm just not
convinced, then you need to findyour voice and actually say
that.
So an element of confidence, ifyou like, has to come out in
(21:48):
you that says I'm not sayingyou've got to slam your fist on
the desk and make demands, butyou do need to make sure that
you are heard where you need tobe heard, because that is your
job to do.
I learned a good basic frombeing an accountant and from
understanding governance, whichis what we do.
And, of course, a board.
That's what a board is.
It's about governance.
(22:08):
It's about making sure that theorganisation is run with
integrity and to the values thatit has decided it has and in
line with the shareholdersexpectations.
So this is that's the board'srole is to make sure that all of
these stakeholders are met,that the legal requirements are
met.
You know all of those things.
(22:29):
So it is a governance positionand as an ACCA accountant, I was
taught how to do that, and Idid then sit with a lot of other
non-executive directors andattend some calls and some
courses online, but where theywere discussing how they did
their job and boards that theyhad been on and things that they
had overcome and how they dealtwith difficult situations on
(22:51):
boards.
And obviously then you learnfrom their experience as well,
and I'd say I'd like, movinginto anything that's a little
bit different expand yournetwork.
So I started networking withlots of other non-executive
directors so that I would havepeople that I could contact.
If I wasn't sure how would youapproach this situation, what
(23:12):
would be?
Is it me?
On a no names basis, I've foundthis situation, I'm not sure.
What do you think.
And so it's been a bit of both.
It's been a bit of formallearning and actually quite a
lot of networking and gettingout there and being curious.
Kyla Cofer (23:29):
Hey leaders, have you ever considered starting
your very own podcast?
Podcasting is a really amazingway.
I want to just say for myselfmy own experience in creating
this leadership school podcast.
I have grown my business, Ihave learned, exponentially.
I've had a ton of fun and myconfidence level has increased
tenfold by continuing to show upand put on a really great show.
(23:54):
If I could help you to startyour very own podcast without
feeling overwhelmed, without theconfusion of what do I do or
how do I start, without dealingwith all the self-doubt, would
you take me up on the offer?
If so, what I want you to do is, right now, go to
podcasterschool.
net.
You can start out by taking thequiz on what kind of podcast
(24:15):
should you create.
From there, go ahead andschedule a call with me and
let's check.
I want to hear about what yourpotential ideas are and what
would make you interested instarting a podcast.
It's such a fantastic way toreally grow, increase your
knowledge, your business andreally get yourself out into the
world.
Take a look at podcasterschool.
net, take the quiz, schedule acall with me and let me help you
(24:35):
get started on your very ownshow.
Susie Reigns (24:41):
Are you a medical professional eager to start your
own business, but feelingoverwhelmed and unsure where to
begin?
Introducing Starting a BusinessSimplified the podcast that's
here to help.
I'm Susie Reigns, your host,and I'll guide you through the
transition, step by step, fromsuccess stories to valuable
(25:01):
business tips.
I've got it all covered.
Tune in now on your favoritepodcast platform and simplify
starting a business yeahabsolutely.
Kyla Cofer (25:11):
What would you say to somebody who's considering a
board position, but it seems Idon't know it seems overwhelming
, or it seems like too much work, or they're just scared of it.
What are some of the advantagesfor being on a board?
Because you've talked aboutsome of that generally, but
maybe we can be more specific,because I want to talk about how
positive this experience is.
It's a great thing to be on aboard, but it is a lot of
(25:32):
responsibility, so do you?
Sharon Critchlow (25:34):
want to change the world or do you want to
change the world for that groupof people that that board and
that company influences or sellsto or serves?
Because if you do, then get onthe board, get on your big girl
pants and get on with it,because this is you know it's
actually.
(25:55):
It can be more frustrating tohave board decisions come down
to you that you have to thenimplement where you know deep
down, it's probably not theright thing for your consumers,
your patients, your customers,your whatever's.
But the board has said we'redoing it like this and so you're
doing it like that, and thatcan be very, very frustrating.
(26:16):
The good thing with being aroundthe board table is you, if you
can find your voice and be heard, is you can tell them.
You can say I disagree,actually I think our customers
need this and this is why Ithink they need.
This is the evidence I havethat they need this and you can
influence how that organizationis and you can influence it for
(26:36):
your customers.
You can influence it for yourstaff.
You have the opportunity to sitthere and say actually, I think
they deserve a pay rise,actually, I think we have to
find the money for them to havean extra three days holiday a
year.
Actually, everybody else in oursector is giving free training
on this.
We need to give them freetraining.
You can actually advocate foryour colleagues from this
(26:58):
position, you can advocate foryour sector from this position
and you can advocate foryourself a lot better from that
position, because the peoplemaking the decisions are sitting
right next to you and in frontof you.
So I would say that if youthink it's a bit overwhelming,
it can be even more overwhelmingto receive, when you know
(27:20):
what's right for theorganization to receive
information down to you whereyou're thinking that's just not
going to work.
How am I going to make thatwork?
I don't believe this is theright thing.
So I would say that that's aless comfortable position than
being one of the people whomakes those choices.
Kyla Cofer (27:38):
So how do you, when you're on that board, how do
you, I think this goes back tothat.
It's a skill that needs to belearned and it's just a skill
you have to work on and grow in,approach conflicts in the board
and that I've got this idea butit's been shot down a dozen
times.
Or I want to advocate formyself but I'm getting put into
a corner and ignored and thatkind of thing.
(28:00):
Everybody's like oh, it's thatgirl again speaking up.
It's her, it's just her, it'sjust him again.
How do we put ourselves in thatwhere we can listen and be
heard?
Sharon Critchlow (28:10):
So what I would say is sometimes things
are a matter of timing.
So sometimes you have beenheard but you don't realize
you've been heard because it'salmost been dismissed and you
think you're not listening.
We have to do this, and if yougo and speak to the chair,
chances are that there'll be anopportunity where they'll say
yeah, I know what you're sayingand I'm not disagreeing.
(28:32):
We just can't do it in thisfinancial year.
So it's then that you say well,can we put it as an agenda item
for this time next year todiscuss it, so that it is at
least not forgotten?
So one of the tactics I wouldsay is, if you feel that you're
not been heard, is to go andtalk to the chair and say I feel
I've not been heard and I wouldlike to table this to be
(28:53):
reexamined in the future.
The second thing I'd say isalways go very, very well
prepared over prepared.
If you think it's going to be adifficult sell, so get all your
evidence.
What's everyone else sayingabout it, what's everyone else
doing about it, what surveyshave you done, what information
do you have?
And put it forward to think ofthe win-win.
(29:14):
So, especially if it's going tocost money, why do they want to
do it?
Why now?
Is this going to make us morecompetitive?
Is this going to make us uniquein the market?
Is this going to stop all ourpeople from leaving?
Just think about what's the whyin this.
Where's the compelling reason,why?
And sometimes you've got to do abit of a selling job, because
(29:36):
not everyone can see what youcan see, and sometimes you do
have to kind of put your casetogether and say and present it
maybe as a little story thatsays, "so.
I found this situation and thenI did a bit of research and
I've come to this conclusion andnow I'd like to share that with
you and I think we shoulddiscuss it.
" and take them on that journey,but be prepared that they may
(30:00):
not be ready to do that wholejourney now.
It may end up back as an agendaitem in the future, but at
least what I would say is if youthink it's going to be
difficult, do it that way.
Another way I would say, ifit's time critical, I've been on
board to which it's been timecritical.
I've been on boards wheremergers have had to happen
fairly quickly for financialreasons, and this isn't
(30:23):
something that peoplenecessarily initially around the
table, thought was even anagenda item.
So another thing you can do isto go and talk to each of your
board members individuallybehind the scenes and explain
the situation to them, explainwhat you've discovered, why you
think this is important, and sayI'd just like to get some
soundings from you.
(30:43):
I'd just like to see what youthink, because, again, not
everybody will show all of theircolours around the table at the
same time, but if they knowthat more than one person's got
kind of thinking the same thing,you're more likely to get an
idea as to whether you have aheadwind that people are going
to support that thing or whatthe problems are.
Because again, somebody mightcome back to you and say we
looked at that last year andthis was what happened.
(31:05):
And you might look at it and gooh, fair enough, you know, okay
, I'm okay with that.
So, yeah, don't be too afraid togo to other board members and
say can I just run something byyou and get some soundings,
because that will help you toput that case together and see
how viable it is and how muchsupport you're likely to get.
So those are the twonon-confrontational kind of
(31:27):
board methods that I'vecertainly used in the past.
I've also used the slamminghand on the desk and going no,
and then crossing my arms andgoing and saying nothing at all,
but that did tend to happenmore as an executive director
when it was a legal issue.
Can we just no?
Kyla Cofer (31:46):
You know I love that the no is a complete sentence
and sometimes it just needs tobe said and you can't budge.
And the shutting up, theclosing your mouth and not
saying another word just letsthat no kind of set in.
Sharon Critchlow (31:58):
Absolutely.
So, yes, there's a time for no.
Kyla Cofer (32:01):
Well, so tell me, Sharon, when, if you are in
entry level or mid level of yourcareer and being on a board is
like the ultimate goal, thinkback to where you were.
It might not have beensomething you were thinking
about when you were 23, you know, but if you were kind of more
in the middle of your career,getting started out, what would
you say to somebody if that wastheir ultimate goal of, like, I
want to be on the board, that'sthe ultimate position?
(32:23):
What can somebody do now toreally start preparing
themselves for that role andputting themselves in a position
where they would get that role.
Sharon Critchlow (32:33):
So what I would say is you need to get
some experience, and the easiestway to get some experience is
to become a trustee of a charityor a not-for-profit
organization in your region.
So, whether that is some, youknow the Children's Scouts
Association, whether that's yourlocal church, whether it's you
know all of these types oforganizations, because what they
(32:55):
will do is they will have boardmeetings.
They will have meetings todiscuss things and you will see,
sometimes you may meet a reallygood chair of it and sometimes
you might meet a not so goodchair of one.
But you will actually get tosit around board meetings as a
trustee and you'll get to hearwhat goes on and you'll get some
experience of being in thatposition.
And also then, when you go fora job on a board, you'll be able
(33:18):
to say that you already havesome board experience.
So you're already used togetting the minutes from the
previous meeting and lookingthrough, getting the papers and
understanding them and thinkingabout how you're going to put
your questions forward.
So being a trustee on a charityor a not-for-profit or that sort
of thing.
So the local church, the localschool, you know parent teachers
kind of thing, as we call themin the UK.
(33:40):
Being on those things puts youin those decision-making bodies
and decision-making positionswhere you will learn a lot.
You'll learn a lot fromeverybody else around the table.
You'll grow your network fromeveryone else around the table
and also they're the people whoare going to give you a
reference when you go for thatjob, because the chair of this
thing is going to be the onewho's seen you in action around
(34:03):
this board table.
So I would say volunteer,perfect, all right?
Kyla Cofer (34:09):
Well, I want to talk about a little bit too.
One of the things that youmentioned early on in our
conversation was the emotionalintelligence of a leader,
because that's something thatreally matters to you personally
and that's something you'veinvested a lot in teaching
others and doing.
Let's talk about that for aminute, because it's kind of
actually been the theme of thisseason and the podcast, as we
(34:30):
were talking about emotionalintelligence and why that
matters.
But when you say emotionalintelligence, what are you
meaning and tell us about howyou teach others this and how
you emphasize it in leadership.
Taking
Sharon Critchlow (34:45):
emotional intelligence right back to the
start, so right back to the1990s, Daniel Goldman noticed
that not everybody who got aHarvard degree ended up with a
big career, and he wanted toanalyze why some people did
really well and some peopledidn't.
And basically what he hadascertained is that technical
knowledge wasn't quite enough.
You needed to have a bit of apeople skill, and that people
(35:08):
skill is what he calledemotional intelligence.
And the emotional intelligencepart of this, if you like, is
around how you respond to things, how you use your emotions, how
aware you are of your emotions,and then what you do next.
Because people aren't liketextbooks, they're not like
maths equations.
You know you don't have Johnplus Zoe equals Tamara.
(35:31):
This does not happen.
What happens is you geteveryone's got their own view.
It's like herding cats and soactually getting things out of
people.
Understanding people, whateverpeople's responses to you won't
be what you expect.
Sometimes they could be reallyrude, and then you've still got
to work with them.
You know, it's all of thesethings learning this skill,
being able to jump over thatbarrier that says actually that
(35:53):
was a bit rude, and then movingforward from that, is where you
can then bring people togetherand that's where you can get
consensus and that is whatleadership is.
It's about taking people on ajourney, and you can't take
people on a journey if you'retoo easily offended.
So this isn't about having toomuch of a thick skin.
This is about reallyunderstanding what upsets you.
(36:14):
Earlier we were saying aboutjealousy, about that's not fair.
That person just do this and Idon't get to do this.
I think we all have a bit ofthat from time to time.
But what it means is that istapping into an emotion, and
understanding that emotion as itoccurs means you can do
something about it.
So I've seen people, whenthey're jealous, bite back at
people and try and be littlethat somebody else's achievement
(36:37):
because, oh, it's not all thatand it's because they wanted it
and they either didn't achieveit or actually they didn't even
put them out themselves outthere to do it in the first
place.
This is what normally happens.
So it's that understanding youremotions, because if you can
understand your emotion, thenyou have this wonderful
opportunity to influence theoutcome and make it a win-win
(37:00):
for everybody.
So I'll give you an example ofsomething that happened to me
when one of my buttons werepushed, as the younger
generation says I had atriggering incident.
So a few years ago I wasmanning a stand at one of these
conference things and a ladycame over to me and said how can
you stand there when you lookso fat?
So what can
Kyla Cofer (37:20):
I say?
I'm sorry.
Right now you see my jaw likeon the floor.
I cannot believe somebody wouldever ever say that.
I'm just like.
I need to hear the rest of thestory and not interrupt you.
But I'm just in, I had to goout on stage after that.
Sharon Critchlow (37:31):
Knowing this, I've now been fat-shamed.
So yeah, so 27-year-old Sharonwould have probably slapped her,
because 27-year-old Sharon wasa bit feisty.
47-year-old Sharon would haveprobably been in tears.
But thankfully she met47-year-old Sharon who looked at
her and said what is it aboutfat that you don't like?
(37:53):
And she said well, I'm nowherenear as fat as you and I can
barely leave the house becauseof it.
So now she's gone from beingsomebody who's highly offensive
to somebody who needs a bit ofcare and attention from me.
So I said should I come downand have a chat about that?
And listening to what she toldme just made me think well,
(38:15):
actually, you know what?
This is nothing.
We're all mirrors.
She's seen me and she's just,you know, let it all out and
that's fine.
But my response to that was aquestion and I would always say
that if you're in thosechallenging situations, the
emotionally intelligent responseis to ask the question, is to
ask more information.
So from that I reallyunderstood that she had a real
(38:38):
problem with her body.
And to look at her, I'm likenothing wrong with you.
From where I am you have aperfectly healthy looking body.
But for her that wasn't thebody she saw.
So actually, what she neededwas my empathy.
She didn't need to be shoutedat, she certainly didn't need to
be slapped.
But this is where you can get towith this and, of course, when
you're around a board table,people will say things that can
(39:00):
be a bit cutting sometimes andyou have to decide what your
response to that's gonna be.
You're gonna go hide in acorner, even though you know
that you have to hold the lineon this because it's a legal
requirement, so it's somethingthat's really important or are
you going to acknowledge thatthat's happened, take care of
yourself for the fact thatthat's happened, decide what
you're going to do with that,but actually then choose your
(39:22):
response.
So another classic one that mybusiness partner often says if
somebody says something that's abit rude or out of order, she
says can you say that againplease?
Because you see, two thirds ofpeople, only one third of people
actually understand theiremotions as they're occurring.
Which means two thirds of thepeople that you meet, it's going
on in their head and it's outtheir mouth before they've even
(39:43):
really thought about it.
So when you challenge them andsay, can you say that again
please?
They say well, actually, what Ireally meant was, and then you
actually get.
You get the toned down version,don't you get the more polite
version, you get a half apologymost of the time, you get the
well sorry, what I really meantwas this.
And so you actually then havethe opportunity to have a
(40:04):
conversation, as opposed to justhaving to take a slap and go
for it.
So the reason I think emotionalintelligence is so important is
because it's a good life skillto have in any form of
relationship, but particularlywhen you're leading,
particularly when you're havingto deal with situations where
people are going to throw theirstuff at you, that you need to
recognize what is your stuff andwhat is other people's stuff.
(40:26):
Recognize if it is a buttonthat's being pushed in you and
do something about it.
Because you can do somethingabout it.
You can reframe things, you candecide to get therapy for it.
If it keeps happening, youdecide whatever it is that you
want to do.
But one thing that is I'd foundfor me is that, as a personal
development tool, emotionalintelligence because it covers
(40:47):
the areas of self-awareness,self-management, social
awareness and relationshipmanagement is that it has made
me a lot more confident to beable to deal with difficult
situations because I just seepeople as being people on a
journey and I accept thatsometimes they will just they
will throw their reaction at yourather than a thought-through
response at you.
Kyla Cofer (41:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm just sitting here thinking.
I've been talking about thisall season, like all summer.
All year long we've beentalking about emotional
intelligence and I think thereason I talk about it so much
because I'm sitting hereimagining what our entire world,
our country, our community, ourfamily relationships be like if
we all responded to each otherwith this type of empathy, with
(41:34):
a question, with a can you saythat again, or tell me more
about that?
What do you mean when you saythat If we're bold enough to
approach responses that wayinstead of our immediate
emotional reactions, and if weteach our children this and the
world comes up and changes thatway, our world will look
completely different.
(41:54):
We would accomplish more.
We would work towards goalsinstead of arguments.
I believe this is such animportant and crucial part of
not just leadership but humanityand being human and maturity
and learning to have thatcourage and boldness.
In a way, boldness doesn't haveto mean rudeness, boldness
(42:17):
doesn't mean louder.
Boldness just means the courageto respond in a mature way that
says tell me what you mean whenyou say that.
Can you say that again?
Those are such good questionsthat you ask and that just dug
deeper.
And if the woman who said thatto you, and then for these other
stories of just now, I'm seeingyou as a person and I'm not
(42:41):
seeing your words.
It's just so, so important andit changes everything about the
way we lead.
Sharon Critchlow (42:48):
I absolutely agree, and the thing is that I'm
very fortunate that I'm afemale leader in the time that I
live in now.
If I had been a female leader100 years ago, I might have had
to have got my megaphone and myshouty voice out.
But we are heard in differentways now, and this is that the
system we have is still notperfect.
(43:09):
There aren't enough women onboards, there aren't enough, as
it were, gentle approaches tohow we make decisions or how we
bring people together, but it'sstill quite testosterone-driven
in places, and so we have tolearn that it's to get a little
bit of a thick skin to actuallypart some of this stuff that we
(43:30):
feel personally offended by andthink okay, but let's just see
if I'm right on this, let's aska few more questions and let's
see if, but with them talking tous, they come to a different
conclusion.
And quite often that is thecase, because you're having a
dialogue, you're not just havingto accept what is thrown at you
.
Kyla Cofer (43:49):
Absolutely.
Sharon, our time is wrapping uphere.
As we wrap up, is thereanything that you wanna make
sure people hear today?
Just about well anything.
I can be specific but, is thereanything you wanna make sure
that people walk away?
And if there's one thingsomeone took away from our
conversation today, what wouldyou like that to be?
Sharon Critchlow (44:06):
One of the things that people ask me is
what is a leader?
Or how do you know if you're aleader?
And what I would say is thatmore of us are leaders than we
think of.
It's obvious if you're on aboard and then you're a leader,
but lots of us are leaders indifferent ways.
So I would say is anybodyfollowing you?
(44:26):
Does anybody rely on yourdecision making?
And if you're thinking, well,I'm a mum, so, yes, well, great,
you're a leader of your family.
There are lots of different waysto lead and there's lots of
different ways that you canpractice your leadership, and
don't discount any of them asbeing a lesser thing than being
on a board.
It's all learning, it's alltraining you for that position
(44:47):
that you want.
So be bold, decide what youwant, because if I can do it,
quite frankly, anybody can.
You just need to have a clearvision of what you want.
And the great thing is is partof your brain group, of a
particular activating system,and it goes and seeks out what
it is that you want.
So it's a pattern spotter.
So if you say, for example, Iwant to go to yoga on a Tuesday,
(45:09):
you'll find you'll be in thelocal convenience store and
there'll be a little thing upand go, look, they do yoga on
Tuesday.
I hadn't spotted that before.
Because there's a bit of yourbrain that goes oh yeah, there,
it is.
Same as if you like red shoes,like I do, I go out there, I see
red shoes everywhere and yetanybody else go oh, that's
really rare, nobody has redshoes.
And I look at it and my braingoes oh look, red shoes, red
shoes, red shoes.
(45:29):
So get clear on what you wantand go for it, because at the
end of the day, even if it's adisaster, even if it's a mess,
you'll learn something and thenyou'll do it differently next
time.
Because this is not the dressrehearsal, this is the main act
and you're about to step out onthat stage.
So go for it.
Kyla Cofer (45:49):
That's really really such a so inspiring.
Thank you so much, Sharon.
I'm not asking or contributingas many questions, because I'm
just soaking it in and just sofeeling empowered and inspired
and I really just appreciatethat.
Sharon, how can our listenersfind you and work with you and
follow
Sharon Critchlow (46:02):
you?
So my name is Sharon Critchlow,I am on LinkedIn and my
business is Discover Your Bounce.
So we are discoveryourbounce.
com.
I'm out there on all the usualsocial channels.
Kyla Cofer (46:14):
Awesome, excellent.
We'll make sure to have linksto all those in our show notes
and make sure we can find youand connect with you.
I am so appreciate your timeand your stories and your just
authenticity and sharing allthis wisdom with us.
I'm just really grateful foryour time today.
Thank you so much for joiningme here.
Sharon Critchlow (46:29):
Thank you for inviting me.
It's been really exciting.
Kyla Cofer (46:35):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interview's over and
we can just kind of have arelaxed, more casual
(46:57):
conversation.
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our Patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/ leaderships chool and for$6.50 a month you can support
(47:21):
this podcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
practically do that.
(47:42):
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/ leadership school where I'masking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(48:03):
in your podcast feed.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kylacofer.
com/ free stuff.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.