September 28, 2023 • 50 mins
Tune in to our interesting discussion with Sally Helgesen, acclaimed international author and the world's leading authority on women's leadership. Be prepared to gain profound insights from Sally's latest book that navigates the intricacies of creating an inclusive workplace. Together, we unpack how the corporate environment functions for women, and how to effectively incorporate them into it. From our conversation, you will learn how to confront commonly faced challenges, such as fairness and networking.
In a deep dive into Sally's innovative ideas, we explore how to reframe narratives and foster more productive relationships. Understand how being genuinely curious and courageous can help handle difficult conversations without feeling defensive. The potency of an inclusive workspace is underscored, revealing how it can fuel the transformation of professional environments.
Sally Helgesen, cited in Forbes as the world’s premier expert on women’s
leadership, is an internationally best-selling author, speaker and leadership
coach. She has been inducted into the Thinkers 50 Hall of Fame, which
honors those whose ideas have shaped the field of leadership worldwide. She
is also ranked number 3 among the world’s thought leaders by Global Gurus.
Sally’s latest book, Rising Together: How We Can Bridge Divides and Create
a More Inclusive Workplace, offers practical ways to build more inclusive
relationships, teams, and workplaces. It soared to Amazon’s number one top-
seller in its field in the first week of publication.
Rising Together builds on Sally’s remarkable success with How Women Rise,
co-authored with legendary executive coach Marshall Goldsmith, which
examines the behaviors most likely to get in the way of successful women as
they move forward in their careers. Rights have been sold in 23 languages.
Other books include The Female Advantage: Women’s Ways of Leadership,
hailed as the classic in its field and continuously in print since 1990, and The
Web of Inclusion: A New Architecture for Building Great Organizations, cited
in The Wall Street Journal as one of the best books on leadership of all time
and credited with bringing the language of inclusion into business.
For over 30 years, Sally has delivered workshops and keynotes for
companies, partnership firms and associations, working in 37 countries
around the world. She can be reached at sally@sallyhelgesen.com
Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please support us on Patreon.
For more leadership tools, check out the free workbooks at KylaCofer.com/freestuff.
Book Kyla to speak at your event here, or to connect further, reach out to Kyla on LinkedIn and Instagram.
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Sally Helgesen (00:00):
My dream is that this fantastic younger
generation, gen Z, is reallygoing to transform how we view
leadership.
I see evidence of it.
I follow a lot of sort of Gen Zperspectives on Twitter.
Very, very young people who arereally political activists in
(00:24):
the mainstream not way out onthe fringes, but political
activists on the mainstream whoare very, very intelligent, very
dedicated, very, you know a lotof it is the whole global
warming issue.
How are we going to deal withglobal warming?
It is a live issue for veryyoung people.
(00:46):
Their lives are going to bearound in 2050, when, for
example, we were talking aboutSingapore, when we signed on in
Singapore.
I just got back from Singapore,a fantastic place I was seeing
on the front page of the NewYork Post that in 2050,
singapore will have 200, believeit was and 67 days a year of
(01:11):
extremely dangerous heat.
That's in 2050.
Now, I probably aren't going tobe around then, but these
younger people will definitelybe around there.
So these issues they arepassionate about.
They are deeply engaged.
They see them as life and deathissues.
So my dream for the future isthat we will learn from them
(01:34):
what leadership looks like, andI see that happen.
Kyla Cofer (01:44):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal (01:58):
teach you how to be an extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
I am thrilled today to bringSally Helgesen to the podcast.
If you don't know, Sally, it ismy absolute privilege to
introduce you to the world'spremier expert on women's
(02:22):
leadership.
Sally is an internationalbestselling author, speaker,
leadership coach.
She has been inducted into theThinker's 50 Hall of Fame.
She is ranked number threeamong the world's thought
leaders by Global Gurus.
She knows what she's talkingabout, has the history and the
experience and the wisdom toprove it; not that she needed to
(02:42):
prove it, but she can.
In her conversation we're goingto talk about her latest book,
which gets into not just why andactually she doesn't really
cover the why.
We kind of already know the whyit's important to create an
inclusive workplace.
She talks about once you knowyou need it, how do you actually
do that?
And the answer is based on her30 years of experience in the
(03:04):
field of leadership around theworld.
Make sure you stick around tothe end, when we get into the
culture of leadership and howthat has shifted and changed
over the span of her career, andwhere she dreams that we're
headed and where she sees usgoing in the future.
Thanks so much for listening,for joining me for this episode.
Please like, subscribe, leavecomments and share.
We really appreciate thosereviews and are just so
(03:27):
privileged to share this spacewith you.
And thank you so much, Sally,for joining me for this episode
of the Leadership School Podcast.
Sally, it really is an honorand a pleasure to have you here
on the podcast.
You have been traveling allover the world, very literally,
of talking and speaking onleadership and I'm just so
honored to have you here.
Thanks for joining me.
It's a great pleasure, Kyla, tobe with you.
(03:48):
Sally, why don't you go aheadand start us off by telling us a
little bit about your story,who you are and kind of your
journey that's got you totraveling all over the world?
Sally Helgesen (03:58):
Certainly.
For the last 35 years I havebeen with, a little more right
now, I think it's about 37.
I have been writing about,speaking about and gathering
information on women'sleadership and inclusive
leadership.
So that's basically what I'vebeen doing.
It's a career that I kind ofbacked into.
(04:18):
I was working in corporatecommunications in the 1980s and
I saw that the companies Iworked for, which were excellent
, had no idea how to reallyunderstand what their women had
to contribute.
So I decided I was going tointerview a bunch of women who
were at the very tops of theirfields, there weren't that many
(04:41):
back there in the late 80s, buttry to see what they had in
common so that I could describethe strengths women brought to
leadership.
And that book was the FemaleAdvantage Women's Ways of
Leadership, which published 1990.
I'm proud to say it is still,continuously, has been in print
(05:02):
since then and it was the firstin its field.
So people started asking me,viewing me as an expert and
having me in to speak to theirwomen, and I thought, well, I'd
rather do this than my speechesfor corporate executives.
So I picked up the ball andeight books later and hundreds
of articles and thousands ofworkshops and keynotes, here I
(05:22):
am.
Kyla Cofer (05:23):
Wow, you know a lot of things struck strike me about
your story.
But right at the very beginningyou said you started noticing
about people didn't know how tohandle women in leadership.
I'm actually just reallyimpressed and curious about how
you began to notice that,because, as a woman yourself,
sometimes we're blind to thosethings and I know for myself.
(05:44):
I did not even realize thingslike that were happening to me
until other women started topoint the bat.
So but you started noticingwhat brought this up for you,
that you were able to noticethat women were treated
differently a little bit inleadership.
Sally Helgesen (05:57):
There were two things.
One happened to me and theother happened I saw it, with
other women.
The thing that happened withother women is I remember one
company I was working with hadrun out this enormously
expensive strategic surveytrying to get ideas about
various directions theorganization could be going into
(06:17):
, and I was charged with goingthrough that and then finding
some talking points for the CEOof the company.
It's a big company and so I wasdoing that.
But I would find that in theladies lounge now this is a real
giveaway to the era the ladiesbathroom used to have a lounge
(06:38):
and it was where people withwomen would go to smoke.
I didn't smoke, but there were alot of women in there smoking
and I found that some of thebest ideas I heard were from
those women and they never madeit through into any of these
surveys.
So the executives never heardit and I thought there has to be
a way of getting thisinformation, because this is
(07:01):
really good, these observationsare really astute, and there has
to be a way of getting noticefor that.
So that was the first thing.
The second thing was somethingthat happened to me, can I tell
you.
I would love to hear a story.
One of the organizations I wasworking with was one of the big
phone operating companies atthat time, one of the biggest in
(07:23):
the country, and this willdefinitely date the story.
They were trying to look tohire a lot of telephone
operators from the high schoolsin New York City, there was a
shortage.
So I was again tasked withworking with the CEO on this.
Now, the night before the bigmeeting about it, where I was
(07:45):
going to be sitting with the CEOand the head of corporate
communications, I had aconversation with my sister, who
is a high school teacher inMilwaukee.
She was telling me about howsome of the local corporate
entities, some of the localcompanies, were partnering with
the schools to develop specificskills that those companies
(08:09):
would need among students.
So I thought this sounded likea great idea and during the
meeting that we had the next day, at which I was the only woman
and probably the most juniorperson in the room, there were
lots of ideas batted back andforth and I suggested that we
consider this idea and I thoughtI phrased it pretty well.
(08:33):
I fortunately avoided sayingyou know, I was talking to my
sister as a high school teacher.
I just presented it as an idea,but no one absolutely no one
responded, looked at me, saidanything.
They just kept the meetinggoing.
It was like it had neverhappened.
Now what did I take from thatas you know, late 30s something
(08:54):
trying to find my way?
I took from it that it was abad idea and that I should
probably have never raised myhand.
So what was interesting, though, was about six months later,
well-known nonprofit in New Yorkmade this suggestion to our CEO
and he said wow, that is afantastic idea, let's run with
(09:18):
it.
Now what I learned from that wasactually my idea was very, very
good, but I backed offimmediately the minute I said it
, and I didn't get a response.
I just decided it was not agood idea, and I thought women
need more confidence in theirideas, because I'd seen guys
raise ideas and they'd gottenbatted down and they would just
(09:42):
keep coming back and they'd sayyou know that idea, let me
reframe it for you.
Let me tell you why I think itwould work, and I didn't do that
, and I didn't see women doingthat.
So I felt like we need moreconfidence in the value of our
ideas and our ability tocontribute strategically and as
(10:03):
leaders, and that's what I wastrying to do with The Female
Advantage.
The one thing I will say Ithought that the response to
this book would be organizationswould say, oh my goodness,
women have so much to contribute.
That was not the response.
The response was womenidentified with it tremendously
(10:24):
themselves.
I kept hearing from women whosaid of course you get letters
in those days from women whosaid I never knew I have a
leadership style.
I thought I didn't.
I had no confidence in how Idid things, but this describes
what I do.
So it was very, very helpful towomen and they loved it and
(10:46):
things went from there.
Kyla Cofer (10:47):
Wow, thanks so much for sharing that.
It's just really impressive tome because I've also been in
situations like that, but I justdidn't notice it.
So I'm just really gratefulthat you did, because that work
has paved the way for so manywomen who have been able to rise
into leadership positionsbecause of your noticing that.
(11:08):
So thank you for that.
But one thing you kind ofmentioned in that first book you
do allude to a lot in your mostrecent book.
Tell us about your most recentbook, because I'm noticing kind
of a theme that I want to get to.
But I would love to hear aboutyour book and kind of the ideas
around your book, and maybe wecan just briefly talk about that
.
Sally Helgesen (11:27):
Well, my latest book, which came out in the mid
spring, is Rising Together (11:30):
How We Can Bridge Divide and Create
a More Inclusive Workplace.
So you are exact, and this booklooks at the how, not the why,
but the how of how we create amore inclusive workplace.
I think we have been talkingabout the reasons that it is
(11:53):
important for you know at least15 years, but we have rarely
looked at what are the specificpractices, the behaviors that
create an inclusive workplace,one in which people have
comfortable and effectiveworking relationships with those
(12:14):
they may perceive as beingdifferent than themselves,
across barriers of gender, ofcourse, but also age, race,
ethnicity, sexual identificationand values and experience basis
.
So how do we do that?
What are the behaviors mostlikely to create that?
(12:36):
And then, what are the triggersor the that are most likely to
undermine our ability to buildthose relationships?
I think this is a moreeffective path than doing what
organizations have been doingfor the past, however long,
which is just looking at asearch for unconscious biases,
(12:58):
because really people perceiveus based on our behavior, not
whatever thoughts are runningthrough our mind.
So that's why I'm trying toswitch the approach there, get a
very practical approach towardcreating inclusive cultures, and
a very broad one.
Kyla Cofer (13:17):
I've really appreciated that in your book
because your book really focuses, like you said, on the how and
not as much on the why, which iswhat I appreciated, because a
lot of times we have looked atthe why and then just felt
really lost.
Okay, we know something needsto be different, but now we're
going to start doing it and thenwe're just all kind of fumbling
(13:38):
along and what your book isdoing and I haven't been able to
read all of your books, but I'massuming that's what you're
kind of the story that you'rebuilding here is that you're
really unlocking how the systemworks for women.
You're giving women thisinsight into kind of how this
corporate system functions, butyou're also giving men the
(13:59):
insight in how to bring womenand include them in that.
Sally Helgesen (14:02):
Well, that's exactly true, and in How Women
Rise, I focus on that, which isthe book before Rising Together.
But Rising Together is reallyvery much aimed at both
diversity in general, so it'snot just on women.
In fact, the genesis of howthis book came to be is useful
to understand it.
I was doing I was still askedto deliver a women's leadership
(14:27):
program at get ready, the LasVegas.
In Las Vegas, the ConstructionSuper Conference.
So this was construction fromall over, construction companies
from all over North America, soit's about 6,000 men who were
there.
And so I asked the conferenceorganizers who do you anticipate
(14:49):
will attend my workshop?
Because it was going to be abreakout, it wasn't going to be
a full session thing, and theysaid, well, we would expect
about 100, 150 women who want tolearn how to become more
effective and make their voicesheard in such a male dominated
sector.
And I said, fine, I can do that.
(15:12):
So this was after how Women Risecame out.
I think it was in 1918.
I mean 2018.
I'm like Sally, come on, I hadthat all.
So I went down and there werealmost 300 people there, and at
(15:32):
least half of them more thanhalf were men, and so I.
What I prepared was completely,you know, I didn't have any use
for it because I was directedvery much at women and here I
had a bunch of men sitting therein front of me as well.
So I began by asking the menwhy they came and they talked
unsurprisingly about they needtheir firms needed to get better
(15:52):
at understanding how to attractand engage and retain
especially talented women, orthey would not really be
competitive.
And then one executive stood upand said you know, please don't
tell us why this is important.
Don't waste your time tellingus why it is important.
We know we get that, but wedon't have a clue how to do it.
(16:18):
So I thought that's what weneed.
We need a how and that's what Iset myself to do in Rising
Together.
So I see it as all my booksconnect with one another, but I
see it as building on How WomenRise and taking it more to the
level of the whole organization,in the same way I had happened
(16:43):
with a connection to earlierbook.
Kyla Cofer (16:46):
Well, and then you did that.
You really did that.
In the first half of your bookyou're talking about, kind of,
you mentioned triggers, andthat's your word triggers that
you use and you set up differenttriggers, that that things that
we can be aware of, and thenbut you're not just be aware
this is how you work throughthem.
And then in your last half ofyour book, you're really kind of
(17:06):
breaking that down and talkingabout okay, now we're aware, now
we know how to work throughthose, but now this is how you
take the action to do those,instead of just sitting and
thinking about them.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthose two little pieces.
Sally Helgesen (17:18):
Well, yes, exactly the triggers I wanted to
look, I thought it wasimportant because you can
present a lot of, you know, hereare some behaviors that build
inclusive organizations and I'vehad a lot of experience
watching what works and whatdoesn't work.
So I, you know, had some prettygood ideas about that and I did
a lot of interviews about it aswell.
(17:39):
But I knew that it's not justknowing how to do things, it's
also being able to first addresswhat holds us back.
You know we may feel thisuncomfortable.
For example, one of the triggersin the book is fairness, and I
hear a lot about this.
You know, we feel we have anemotional response when we feel
(18:02):
we're in a situation where we'renot being treated fairly.
And I hear it from women.
You know these guys they can'thear a thing a woman says, you
know that it's very difficultfor a woman to get promoted
around here.
But I hear it from men as well.
You know women are getting allthe good jobs now We've got 50%,
(18:25):
so a lot of guys are notgetting, you know, promoted.
I don't feel like my work isbeing acknowledged.
So now you have men saying it.
You certainly have this acrossrace in different countries.
You have it across ethnicitiesin India play out.
So there are a wide variety oftriggers.
(18:45):
So that's an emotional responsethat we have that makes it
difficult to say, okay, here'san inclusive behavior, let me
practice this.
Well, we can't do that.
When we're emotionallyresponding, when we're stewing,
we may feel that other peopleare getting more visibility than
we are and we have, that's atrigger in the book, and that we
(19:06):
have trouble get bringingnotice to what our achievements
are.
We're uncomfortable doing thatbecause and we decide these
other people are showboats.
Networking, how we buildnetworks is an important trigger
that I talk about in the book.
Do we feel that we have accessto the networks in the
organization that really leadpeople to career development and
(19:32):
getting right mentors andsponsors, or do we feel shut out
of those?
And if we feel shut out ofthose, how do we take action?
That can be useful.
So, again, the idea is you knowwhat gets in the way, what
causes an emotional response.
Communication style can't standto listen to that person the
way she talks.
That woman is all over theplace.
(19:53):
That guy, you know he can't letanybody else get a word in
edgewise.
Those things are triggers thatmake it hard for us to behave in
ways that create inclusivecultures.
So I thought let's deal withthose first.
They're never talked about,they're never acknowledged, and
then we can set forth someinclusive behaviors that once
(20:14):
people are sort of have theemotional balance to be able to
make a decision, I'm going tobehave this way, they can do
that.
Kyla Cofer (20:22):
One thing I was having a little bit of trouble
understanding is I feel like inthe beginning of your book you
were talking about kind ofchanging the narratives that
we're telling ourselves,changing our stories, and kind
of the way we're thinking aboutdifferent situations and our
emotional triggers, so in theway that we notice and the way
we think about them.
And then the last half it waschanging the actions, and maybe
(20:43):
you can clarify for me about howthose two work together,
because I come from a psychologybackground of cognitive
behavioral therapy, where yourthoughts and beliefs lead to
your actions and I kind of feellike you were changing that up a
little bit.
Sally Helgesen (20:56):
I was changing it up a little bit and I'm a big
fan.
I'm not a psychologist, but I'ma big fan of cognitive
behavioral therapy and have infact benefited from it myself.
Going back to Dr David Burnsand some of his popularization
of the original work that wasdone, I think Martin Seligman, I
(21:16):
don't remember the names, butyeah.
So I believe in that.
But I think in personal therapyit's really important to get
these insights into our behaviorand then thoroughly adjust to
that and digest that informationin order to move forward In
organizations.
(21:36):
As you're trying to developyour career, as you're trying to
develop your leadership skills,as leaders are trying to put
together effective teams, thereisn't often the learning curve
or the patience to wait forpeople to go through the whole
psychological process of beingable to change their thinking so
(21:59):
they can change their acting.
So what I'm trying to do in thebook is show ways that you can
change how you act and that canshift how you think.
Now my understanding ofcognitive behavioral therapy is
that it also takes that point,that point of view.
If you change how you're acting, then that can begin to change
(22:20):
how you're thinking.
But I think it works reallywell in the whole space of
diversity and inclusion, becauseoften we'll have an idea that,
well, I've had a bad experiencewith this kind of person.
We hear people say that all thetime.
People aren't bigots, but justsay I've had a couple of bad
experiences with that kind ofperson.
So I'm a little suspicious ofthis kind of person.
(22:44):
But then if we act in a way bygiving them what I call giving
them the benefit of our goodwilland we don't get invested in a
narrative about why we thinkthey are a showboat, why we
think they don't speak up anddon't really contribute, aren't
really carrying their weight,whatever that is, as long as we
(23:05):
don't get too overly invested inthat narrative, we can leave
space for ourselves to act in aslightly different way.
That maximizes the chance thatwe'll develop a better
relationship with that person.
The result of that often is thatnot only do we side I thought I
(23:26):
didn't like Kyla based on thefact that she reminded me of X,
y and Z, but now that I'vegotten to know her, I really
really do like her.
Therefore, we'll become, forexample, thinking if I like Kyla
, that may mean that I should bemore open to cognitive
behavioral psychologists who arefemale in general.
(23:49):
You see what I'm saying.
This is kind of something thatI think is underrated, and we've
gotten overly invested, to somedegree at least, in
organization and the whole ideaof you've got to change the
mindset first.
In my personal experience, itis easier to act your way into a
(24:09):
new way of thinking than tothink your way into a new way of
acting.
That's what I'm proposing here,because otherwise we can get
stuck in trying to change ourthinking and not really figure
out how to begin to create abroader range of relationships.
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Kyla Cofer (26:10):
And really it sounds like we're just telling
ourselves a different story.
You mentioned this right off inchapter one, telling yourself a
different narrative about whatyou're experiencing.
So, yeah, maybe all of thepeople that I've worked for in
this category of people havebeen terrible bosses, but that
doesn't mean that every personin this category in the entire
(26:32):
world is a terrible boss.
You don't have to create thatnarrative in your mind.
So it's allowing myself theopportunity to have a different
story and to take action onthose stories.
So to say, okay, if A is true,it doesn't mean B is true, so I
can still follow B and try again, and try in that different way.
Sally Helgesen (26:51):
That's exactly right and it especially works
well in very specific instances.
For example, you know I've beentalking a little bit about
dancing around this issue ofvisibility.
This is a huge trigger in theworkplace.
This person always gets noticedwhen I speak up, no one ever
notices.
I notice that they don't pickup on what women say.
(27:14):
So what do we do?
Typically if we're in thatsituation, we talk to another
woman and say can you believethe guys here?
They can't listen to anything awoman says.
So that becomes our narrative.
So if we can rewrite that storyin very kind of specific terms,
okay, that was interesting.
I thought that Jim or Lou, Ellenor Muhammad would pick up on
(27:40):
what I said in that meeting.
He completely ignored it.
I'm wondering if perhaps hedidn't hear me.
I'm wondering if perhaps theway I framed it, he didn't
really resonate with it.
I think I'll give him a call orwrite him an email or go up to
him if we're in person and askhim and say you know I had made
(28:02):
this observation in that meeting.
It seemed very aligned withsome of the observations that
you had made and I'm wonderingif you noticed, if you had any
thoughts that you could share,because I'd like to really
understand how it could workeffectively together and I'd
love to get your thoughts there.
So there, what you're doing isyou're opening up, you're
(28:24):
questioning your own narrative.
You know, maybe he didn't hearme, Maybe I sounded all over the
place, maybe how I phrased itwas boring or unclear.
You're opening that space andthen you're giving him again the
benefit of your good wealth.
Maybe, you know, maybe it wasme, maybe it wasn't him, and
then, based on that, you aretaking an action to potentially
(28:48):
engage him as an ally, ratherthan simply, you know,
dismissing him like guys don'tget it, whatever.
So this is a mini example, butto me, this is how the rewriting
of the script or rewriting thenarrative works.
A lot of people don't like it.
First of all, you know theyquestion the whole concept that
(29:12):
your acting can change yourthinking.
It's sort of mindset first, soit's not the most popular point
of view, Even though I see itwork all the time.
It's also a littlecontroversial because you know
people who have been outside theleadership mainstream,
especially the mainstream in anorganization in the United
States, African Americans, manyLatinos, for example, in you
(29:36):
know, in India, people who areof a lower caste, for example,
or you know this is true allover the world.
There are groups; Japan, mygoodness Japan.
If you're not a Japanese male,you know who are you in the
organization, you're a newcomer.
We had to work hard to be ableto feel like we could speak up,
(29:58):
and part of what we want is tobe authentic and feel authentic.
So the biggest pushback I geton rewriting the script is I
don't think that would beauthentic to me.
That's not really what I'mseeing.
What I'm seeing is this guy isobnoxious, he's trying to suck
up all the air.
He doesn't give other peoplecredit for their ideas.
(30:18):
That's authentic to me.
So that's another kind ofbarrier there.
I think it's more important.
I think it's important to beauthentic.
But we need to question what isreally most authentic in us, at
our core, and often those kindsof ways of dismissing people
are not.
Kyla Cofer (30:37):
To question what's really authentic to us at our
core.
That one will leave me thinkingfor a minute, but one thing
that I really enjoyed throughhearing you talk now and hearing
about this is, you know, atfirst I was thinking this theme
I was hearing was boldness,because I'm thinking man to be
able to have that to show up youshared, you said it was a mini
(30:58):
example, but it's not a miniexample.
To me it's a major example ofwhen you go up to someone and
say, tell me more about whatjust happened in this meeting or
tell me about this idea thatyou brushed off of mine and like
asking about it to me toapproach that difficult
conversation, that potentiallyvery awkward conversation, seems
very, very bold, and so a lotof what I'm hearing through the
(31:20):
way that you talk about noticingthese triggers is having an
opportunity to be bold andpersistent, and I wonder if it's
just more of beingexceptionally curious.
Sally Helgesen (31:30):
Well, I think being exceptionally curious is a
great, great way to frame it,and I heard somebody say this
weekend somewhere, you know becurious instead of furious.
So when your idea is brushedoff like that, get curious about
why that happened and reallyunderstanding it.
And the one thing that I thinkis the most important in this is
when you go up to a person or,you know, say let's, I don't
(31:56):
want to be one tiny bitdefensive, so I think let me
understand what just happenedcomes off as defensive and it
also says I'm invested in mynarrative that something
important just happened rightthere.
Now that other person might noteven have noticed anything
happen.
So if you go up to them and sayI need to understand what just
(32:16):
happened, and they're gonna sayyou know who is this person
who's so over sensitive andtaking offense, at everything.
So I think that the way out ofthat is exactly what you say
getting curious.
You know I'm curious, I may.
I thought that I'd phrase thisidea in a compelling way, but it
didn't get much notice.
What was your impression diddid?
(32:38):
What were your thoughts did?
Did you notice?
What did you know?
What did you hear when I saidthat?
I'm very curious about that.
I'd love to have your opinion.
That's more inviting thananything that's even the
slightest bit defensive orputting it in the frame of a
difficult conversation.
I don't think it is a difficultconversation.
(32:59):
Does it require a certaindegree of being direct?
Yeah, sure.
But I don't think it's reallydifficult conversation.
It's a conversation about youknow, I'm trying to get better,
I value your opinion.
Would you take the time toshare that with me?
I think that's, in essence,what that is.
(33:19):
So I don't think that thisreally is a difficult
conversation.
Kyla Cofer (33:24):
Well, it did two things.
When you phrase it the way youdid, it allowed the other person
to feel good about themselvesbecause you're engaging their
opinion, so they're feel they'recontributing to your growth.
But also it's showing the otherperson that you're committed to
growth and you want to improveyourself and go forward in your
career in the position.
(33:44):
You got it.
Sally Helgesen (33:45):
Those are the two things.
You know I'm committed togrowth.
You know I'm really curiousabout your thoughts because I
believe that you can be helpfulto me.
I really value what you think.
Who's gonna say oh, you valuewhat I think, forget it, brush
you off.
You know, the more, the moreopen you are and the more, as
you say, curious you are, Ithink the more positive
(34:08):
responses you're going to get,and the person may not have a
thought in a minute.
They might say you know, Ireally thought about it.
You say I love it, if you givea little attention, I can come
back to you and ask if that'smore convenient.
And then if they say, yeah, notreally, you know, I don't have
time, it's fine, that's fine.
You know, maybe they've gotsomething going on.
Can I tell you, when I startedrewriting the script might for
(34:31):
myself and it was in the early,it was probably, it was in the
early nineties I was suddenlydoing a lot of speaking, which I
hadn't done in the past becausethe female advantage and
followed by that, the web ofinclusion, with both very
successful box, nineteen ninetyand ninety five, nineteen,
ninety five.
So I was doing a lot ofspeaking and I found myself very
distracted by people who didn'tseem to be paying attention
(34:56):
when I was up on stage.
And you know, I look at someoneI was pretty much pre cell
phone.
But I look at somebody and theybe writing something, that look
like they were doing some work,or they be talking to their
neighbor, or whatever.
They were looking around, arethey bored, or whatever.
I get focused on that personand I think, oh, am I bombing?
(35:16):
Am I dull?
What's gone wrong here?
Is this a mismatched audience?
You know, I could really godown the rabbit hole.
I realize this was not workingfor me at all because it made it
very difficult to be presentfor what was, for what I was
saying, because it was focusedon my perception of what
somebody might be thinking of me.
So I decided that what I wasgoing to do was, as soon as I
(35:39):
saw someone who look like theyweren't engaged, paying
attention, etc.
I was going to quickly tellmyself the story.
Oh, you probably had a fightwith his wife this morning.
Oh, maybe she found out one ofher kids is having problems in
school.
Oh, maybe the boss who sentthem here, they heard that boss
(36:00):
is not happy with the jobthey're doing, whatever it is.
I would make up on the spotsuper quick story to explain to
myself, based on basicallynothing, why that person wasn't
fascinated by every word thatwas coming out of my mouth.
And then I would move aroundand I would just look and try to
find somebody who look veryengaged now and focus on them.
(36:21):
It was so effective it just letme let that go.
I don't find, you know, I havecolleagues say you know, just
let it go, let it go, let it go.
I don't find that terriblyhelpful.
How do I let it go?
To me, re writing the narrative, even in the very small things
like that was the most helpfultechnique or how for letting go
(36:42):
that I've ever discovered.
So I've used it and developedit through the years in lots of
different work that I do, butthe first time I've shared it so
explicitly and and used in theworkshops that I do is doing
workshops and rising togetherwhen I was over in Asia last
week.
Kyla Cofer (37:02):
It's a very effective exercise to teach
people, so I've been focused on.
It's such a great coaching tooltoo, and what's really
noticeable to me in that is thatwe were writing a narrative
anyways, like the story that youwere telling yourself that that
person out there didn't careabout you and want to hear what
you had to say.
You didn't know, they weren'ttelling you that, you were
(37:24):
making up that narrative anyways, so you just made a new story,
and whether the story is true ornot does it matter, cuz you
didn't know if it was true inthe first place.
Anyways, the way that yourespond is different, because we
realize that it wasn't aboutyou in the first place, exactly
exactly and you really.
Sally Helgesen (37:41):
That's.
That's the point.
It doesn't matter whether thestory you tell yourself is true
or not.
You don't have all the details,you don't have all the
information.
It's just is the new story thatyou write, is the narrative you
write.
It gives the other person thebenefit of your good will.
(38:03):
I don't want to say benefit ofthe doubt, but you know, I want
to come out and positive waybenefit of your good will.
All that matters is that thatserves you and it helps you let
go of a negative presumption andit gives you a path, this is
most important, a path to onwhich to take positive action;
(38:24):
an action that tries to engagethem as an ally, and action that
tells them you value what theyhave to say, so will they share
that with you.
All those things are actions,and that's what we want to be.
We don't want to just be stuckin our minds, because then we're
never really gonna makeprogress on this.
So very, very important pointthat you made, it doesn't matter
(38:47):
whether the story is true.
How does it serve us?
Does it give us a path toaction?
Kyla Cofer (38:53):
Yeah, absolutely Well, thank you.
Well, let me ask you this.
You've been in this, the fieldof leadership, for 30 something
years now.
How have you seen some reallypositive changes over your
career?
And then, with that, what'syour dream about the future of
leadership?
Sally Helgesen (39:09):
Okay, that's two questions.
I'll start with the first andyou may have to remind me of the
second, but I've watchedtremendous change.
I think it is very unbalanced,very, very positive.
Do we see some horrific leaderstoday, both in the private and
public sector?
Oh, absolutely, but I wasaround when there was some
(39:30):
pretty egregious behavior in thepast too, so it's not all
positive.
But I do think that both womenand and in the United States,
for example, people of color andpeople from ethnic backgrounds
that have not been heavilyrepresented at the leadership
level, number one expectacceptance in a way that they
(39:56):
did not before, that they havemore confidence in their own
ability to make a contributionin as leaders or as experts.
They have more confidence inwhat they have to contribute.
They have much greatersolidarity with one another, and
this is very, very important.
(40:17):
You know used to be difficultto get senior women in an
organization to support juniorwomen or women coming up,
because they would feel like,well, I don't want to get known
as you know, someone who justcares about women.
I want to be a leader, I wantto be respected.
So it was very difficult to dothat.
I don't see that hardly at allanymore.
(40:38):
I see women in senior positionseager to step up and support
women coming up same acrossEthnic lines, racial lines and
certainly in terms of age aswell and sexual identity.
So all those things arepositive.
Much more solidarity, theinternal networks, you know the
(41:00):
employee resource groups orbusiness resource groups, they
call them that.
Sometimes they are amanifestation of that.
They're much stronger, they'rebetter funded and they really
foment solidarity, a spirit ofsolidarity t hat is very, very
positive.
I think also that and there'smore there's more recognition
(41:22):
that all of us need alliesbroadly and a determination to
develop the skills that willenable us to enlist allies
across a range of borders, oneof the things I'm trying to do
in Rising Together.
But overall the big deal is, Ithink how we define excellence
in leadership has beenrevolutionized in the 37 years
(41:48):
that I've been in this field.
It used to be the toughesttop-down boss you could imagine.
He was a great leader.
You know you.
You know you got to break someeggs to make an omelet, that
sort of approach, and you saw it.
You know really, in the waythat Jack Welch of GE was
(42:08):
lionized, neutron Jack as he wasknown, and a lot of other top
leaders.
You know Bob Crandall atAmerican Airlines, etc.
etc.
I'm not necessarily picking onthem, but they, you know they
exemplified what organizationsaspired to in leadership back
(42:28):
then.
You didn't hear about empathyand leadership level ever.
You didn't hear about theimportance of building
relationships.
You didn't hear about the valueof direct communication.
You heard about top-down, he'stough, he makes the tough
decisions.
You know, people don't like it,too bad my way or the highway.
(42:50):
So I think that that's reallygotten re defined.
Now are there some leaders whodon't exemplify it?
Absolutely.
But I don't think organizationsare saying you know, we're
looking for the toughest guy outthere and we don't care, you
know, if he's has poorrelationships, skill of building
skills, etc.
That's.
That's not what I see,certainly in global
(43:11):
organizations around the world.
Kyla Cofer (43:13):
Yeah, I've actually seen the opposite, that that we
don't want somebody who's likethat.
Exactly, that's what I mean.
Sally Helgesen (43:18):
It's been redefined.
What does excellence inleadership look like?
How do we define it?
That has changed, and it haschanged tremendously for the
good.
You know, I started my careerearly in the advertising
business back in 1968, and itreally was the madman era.
(43:39):
It was extraordinary.
What was tolerated back thenand that's not tolerated anymore
.
And it doesn't happen, ofcourse, because are there bad
people?
Of course the bad people, but Ithink the system is much better
at leaving them out.
Kyla Cofer (43:55):
So tell me more about your.
What's your dream, then, forthe future of leadership?
Where do you want to see us go?
Where do you see us going fromhere with as much as the United
States and I talk about theUnited States was, as much as
the United States has grown inLeadership development over the
last 35 years?
Where do you see us going andin what place?
Sally Helgesen (44:12):
do you?
Kyla Cofer (44:12):
dream seeing us in.
Sally Helgesen (44:14):
My dream is that this fantastic younger
generation, gen Z, is reallygoing to transform how we view
leadership.
I see evidence of it.
I follow a lot of sort of Gen Zperspectives on Twitter, very,
very young people who are reallypolitical activists in the
(44:38):
mainstream not, you know, wayout on the fringes, but
political activists on themainstream who are very, very
intelligent, very dedicated.
Very you know a lot of it isthe whole global warming issue.
How are we going to deal withglobal warming?
It is a live issue for veryyoung people.
(45:00):
Their lives are good.
They're going to be around in2051.
For example, we were talkingabout Singapore when we signed
on, in Singapore, I just gotback from Singapore, a fantastic
place.
I was seeing on the front pageof the New York Post that in
2050, Singapore will have 200believe it was and 67 days a
(45:24):
year of extremely dangerous heat.
That's in 2050.
Now, probably not going to bearound them, but these younger
people will definitely be aroundthere.
So these issues they arepassionate about.
They are deeply engaged.
They see them as life and deathissues.
So my dream for the future isthat we will learn from them
(45:48):
what leadership looks like, andI see that happen.
Kyla Cofer (45:52):
Wow, Sally, I want to wrap up with asking you my
two questions I ask every guest,and the first one is what does
the word integrity mean to you?
Sally Helgesen (46:00):
Integrity means a willingness to tell the truth,
even when there's a cost to it,and to speak that truth.
That's why I so advocate,advocate being direct about what
you see, what you notice, whatyou value and what your story is
, how you connect the dots.
I think that's where integrityreally lives.
Kyla Cofer (46:23):
Hmm, my last question is the word balance.
It can be kind of acontroversial word and so I have
to change the use of the wordthere, but I want to know how
you personally find balance, andwhat does balance look like to
you?
You know you have this busylife, you travel over the world
speaking all these things, butwhat does it look like for you
to have balance?
Sally Helgesen (46:43):
Balance, for one thing means to me that I am
able and I am comfortable and Iam willing to assert what my
boundaries are to say no, I cando this, but I don't think I can
do that.
If I'm going to come and dothis work, here are the couple
things that I need and here iswhat I most hope to accomplish.
(47:03):
This is what will make thissuccessful for me.
I'm not laying down the law.
I'm open to listening to people, but the ability to assert our
own boundaries and say what'simportant to us is really it's
key to balance, and I think that, especially for women, but also
for many people who are outsidethe leadership mainstream,
(47:27):
there is often a tendency to tryto manage other people's
expectations and privilege whateverybody else is going to think
about you rather than say thisis what I need to make sure I do
the most effective job.
Kyla Cofer (47:45):
I'm so glad you had mentioned the word boundaries
because if there's anybody elselistening whose favorite word is
boundaries, like me, we've beentalking about it quite a bit
without actually using the word,and your book just really
discusses a lot of it.
You I don't know if you evenactually mentioned the word
boundaries in your book, but youare your.
That's what you're bringing up.
You're saying it's about havinghealthy boundaries and about
(48:05):
knowing what you need and andpursuing those things, and in a
healthy, positive way.
And so just thank you forsetting that example for us.
And, sally, thanks so much forjoining me on this podcast.
It's like I said before, it'sjust such an honor to have you
here and learn from you, and Ijust appreciate all the noticing
that you've done and the wisdomthat you've shared.
Sally Helgesen (48:23):
Thank you, Kyla, I really enjoyed it.
Kyla Cofer (48:28):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews over and we
can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation.
(48:50):
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/ leadership school and forsix dollars and fifty cents a
(49:12):
month you can support thispodcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and, honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
(49:34):
practically do that.
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/le adership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(49:56):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kyla cofer
.
com/ free stuff.
My dream is that this fantastic younger
generation, gen Z, is reallygoing to transform how we view
leadership.
I see evidence of it.
I follow a lot of sort of Gen Zperspectives on Twitter.
Very, very young people who arereally political activists in
(00:24):
the mainstream not way out onthe fringes, but political
activists on the mainstream whoare very, very intelligent, very
dedicated, very, you know a lotof it is the whole global
warming issue.
How are we going to deal withglobal warming?
It is a live issue for veryyoung people.
(00:46):
Their lives are going to bearound in 2050, when, for
example, we were talking aboutSingapore, when we signed on in
Singapore.
I just got back from Singapore,a fantastic place I was seeing
on the front page of the NewYork Post that in 2050,
singapore will have 200, believeit was and 67 days a year of
(01:11):
extremely dangerous heat.
That's in 2050.
Now, I probably aren't going tobe around then, but these
younger people will definitelybe around there.
So these issues they arepassionate about.
They are deeply engaged.
They see them as life and deathissues.
So my dream for the future isthat we will learn from them
(01:34):
what leadership looks like, andI see that happen.
Kyla Cofer (01:44):
Welcome to the Leadership School Podcast.
I'm your host leadership andself-care coach, Kyla Cofer.
Here at the Leadership School,you'll hear leaders from around
the world sharing their storiesand expertise on how to lead
with balance and integrity.
Our goal (01:58):
teach you how to be an extraordinary leader.
Welcome back, leaders.
I am thrilled today to bringSally Helgesen to the podcast.
If you don't know, Sally, it ismy absolute privilege to
introduce you to the world'spremier expert on women's
(02:22):
leadership.
Sally is an internationalbestselling author, speaker,
leadership coach.
She has been inducted into theThinker's 50 Hall of Fame.
She is ranked number threeamong the world's thought
leaders by Global Gurus.
She knows what she's talkingabout, has the history and the
experience and the wisdom toprove it; not that she needed to
(02:42):
prove it, but she can.
In her conversation we're goingto talk about her latest book,
which gets into not just why andactually she doesn't really
cover the why.
We kind of already know the whyit's important to create an
inclusive workplace.
She talks about once you knowyou need it, how do you actually
do that?
And the answer is based on her30 years of experience in the
(03:04):
field of leadership around theworld.
Make sure you stick around tothe end, when we get into the
culture of leadership and howthat has shifted and changed
over the span of her career, andwhere she dreams that we're
headed and where she sees usgoing in the future.
Thanks so much for listening,for joining me for this episode.
Please like, subscribe, leavecomments and share.
We really appreciate thosereviews and are just so
(03:27):
privileged to share this spacewith you.
And thank you so much, Sally,for joining me for this episode
of the Leadership School Podcast.
Sally, it really is an honorand a pleasure to have you here
on the podcast.
You have been traveling allover the world, very literally,
of talking and speaking onleadership and I'm just so
honored to have you here.
Thanks for joining me.
It's a great pleasure, Kyla, tobe with you.
(03:48):
Sally, why don't you go aheadand start us off by telling us a
little bit about your story,who you are and kind of your
journey that's got you totraveling all over the world?
Sally Helgesen (03:58):
Certainly.
For the last 35 years I havebeen with, a little more right
now, I think it's about 37.
I have been writing about,speaking about and gathering
information on women'sleadership and inclusive
leadership.
So that's basically what I'vebeen doing.
It's a career that I kind ofbacked into.
(04:18):
I was working in corporatecommunications in the 1980s and
I saw that the companies Iworked for, which were excellent
, had no idea how to reallyunderstand what their women had
to contribute.
So I decided I was going tointerview a bunch of women who
were at the very tops of theirfields, there weren't that many
(04:41):
back there in the late 80s, buttry to see what they had in
common so that I could describethe strengths women brought to
leadership.
And that book was the FemaleAdvantage Women's Ways of
Leadership, which published 1990.
I'm proud to say it is still,continuously, has been in print
(05:02):
since then and it was the firstin its field.
So people started asking me,viewing me as an expert and
having me in to speak to theirwomen, and I thought, well, I'd
rather do this than my speechesfor corporate executives.
So I picked up the ball andeight books later and hundreds
of articles and thousands ofworkshops and keynotes, here I
(05:22):
am.
Kyla Cofer (05:23):
Wow, you know a lot of things struck strike me about
your story.
But right at the very beginningyou said you started noticing
about people didn't know how tohandle women in leadership.
I'm actually just reallyimpressed and curious about how
you began to notice that,because, as a woman yourself,
sometimes we're blind to thosethings and I know for myself.
(05:44):
I did not even realize thingslike that were happening to me
until other women started topoint the bat.
So but you started noticingwhat brought this up for you,
that you were able to noticethat women were treated
differently a little bit inleadership.
Sally Helgesen (05:57):
There were two things.
One happened to me and theother happened I saw it, with
other women.
The thing that happened withother women is I remember one
company I was working with hadrun out this enormously
expensive strategic surveytrying to get ideas about
various directions theorganization could be going into
(06:17):
, and I was charged with goingthrough that and then finding
some talking points for the CEOof the company.
It's a big company and so I wasdoing that.
But I would find that in theladies lounge now this is a real
giveaway to the era the ladiesbathroom used to have a lounge
(06:38):
and it was where people withwomen would go to smoke.
I didn't smoke, but there were alot of women in there smoking
and I found that some of thebest ideas I heard were from
those women and they never madeit through into any of these
surveys.
So the executives never heardit and I thought there has to be
a way of getting thisinformation, because this is
(07:01):
really good, these observationsare really astute, and there has
to be a way of getting noticefor that.
So that was the first thing.
The second thing was somethingthat happened to me, can I tell
you.
I would love to hear a story.
One of the organizations I wasworking with was one of the big
phone operating companies atthat time, one of the biggest in
(07:23):
the country, and this willdefinitely date the story.
They were trying to look tohire a lot of telephone
operators from the high schoolsin New York City, there was a
shortage.
So I was again tasked withworking with the CEO on this.
Now, the night before the bigmeeting about it, where I was
(07:45):
going to be sitting with the CEOand the head of corporate
communications, I had aconversation with my sister, who
is a high school teacher inMilwaukee.
She was telling me about howsome of the local corporate
entities, some of the localcompanies, were partnering with
the schools to develop specificskills that those companies
(08:09):
would need among students.
So I thought this sounded likea great idea and during the
meeting that we had the next day, at which I was the only woman
and probably the most juniorperson in the room, there were
lots of ideas batted back andforth and I suggested that we
consider this idea and I thoughtI phrased it pretty well.
(08:33):
I fortunately avoided sayingyou know, I was talking to my
sister as a high school teacher.
I just presented it as an idea,but no one absolutely no one
responded, looked at me, saidanything.
They just kept the meetinggoing.
It was like it had neverhappened.
Now what did I take from thatas you know, late 30s something
(08:54):
trying to find my way?
I took from it that it was abad idea and that I should
probably have never raised myhand.
So what was interesting, though, was about six months later,
well-known nonprofit in New Yorkmade this suggestion to our CEO
and he said wow, that is afantastic idea, let's run with
(09:18):
it.
Now what I learned from that wasactually my idea was very, very
good, but I backed offimmediately the minute I said it
, and I didn't get a response.
I just decided it was not agood idea, and I thought women
need more confidence in theirideas, because I'd seen guys
raise ideas and they'd gottenbatted down and they would just
(09:42):
keep coming back and they'd sayyou know that idea, let me
reframe it for you.
Let me tell you why I think itwould work, and I didn't do that
, and I didn't see women doingthat.
So I felt like we need moreconfidence in the value of our
ideas and our ability tocontribute strategically and as
(10:03):
leaders, and that's what I wastrying to do with The Female
Advantage.
The one thing I will say Ithought that the response to
this book would be organizationswould say, oh my goodness,
women have so much to contribute.
That was not the response.
The response was womenidentified with it tremendously
(10:24):
themselves.
I kept hearing from women whosaid of course you get letters
in those days from women whosaid I never knew I have a
leadership style.
I thought I didn't.
I had no confidence in how Idid things, but this describes
what I do.
So it was very, very helpful towomen and they loved it and
(10:46):
things went from there.
Kyla Cofer (10:47):
Wow, thanks so much for sharing that.
It's just really impressive tome because I've also been in
situations like that, but I justdidn't notice it.
So I'm just really gratefulthat you did, because that work
has paved the way for so manywomen who have been able to rise
into leadership positionsbecause of your noticing that.
(11:08):
So thank you for that.
But one thing you kind ofmentioned in that first book you
do allude to a lot in your mostrecent book.
Tell us about your most recentbook, because I'm noticing kind
of a theme that I want to get to.
But I would love to hear aboutyour book and kind of the ideas
around your book, and maybe wecan just briefly talk about that
.
Sally Helgesen (11:27):
Well, my latest book, which came out in the mid
spring, is Rising Together (11:30):
How We Can Bridge Divide and Create
a More Inclusive Workplace.
So you are exact, and this booklooks at the how, not the why,
but the how of how we create amore inclusive workplace.
I think we have been talkingabout the reasons that it is
(11:53):
important for you know at least15 years, but we have rarely
looked at what are the specificpractices, the behaviors that
create an inclusive workplace,one in which people have
comfortable and effectiveworking relationships with those
(12:14):
they may perceive as beingdifferent than themselves,
across barriers of gender, ofcourse, but also age, race,
ethnicity, sexual identificationand values and experience basis
.
So how do we do that?
What are the behaviors mostlikely to create that?
(12:36):
And then, what are the triggersor the that are most likely to
undermine our ability to buildthose relationships?
I think this is a moreeffective path than doing what
organizations have been doingfor the past, however long,
which is just looking at asearch for unconscious biases,
(12:58):
because really people perceiveus based on our behavior, not
whatever thoughts are runningthrough our mind.
So that's why I'm trying toswitch the approach there, get a
very practical approach towardcreating inclusive cultures, and
a very broad one.
Kyla Cofer (13:17):
I've really appreciated that in your book
because your book really focuses, like you said, on the how and
not as much on the why, which iswhat I appreciated, because a
lot of times we have looked atthe why and then just felt
really lost.
Okay, we know something needsto be different, but now we're
going to start doing it and thenwe're just all kind of fumbling
(13:38):
along and what your book isdoing and I haven't been able to
read all of your books, but I'massuming that's what you're
kind of the story that you'rebuilding here is that you're
really unlocking how the systemworks for women.
You're giving women thisinsight into kind of how this
corporate system functions, butyou're also giving men the
(13:59):
insight in how to bring womenand include them in that.
Sally Helgesen (14:02):
Well, that's exactly true, and in How Women
Rise, I focus on that, which isthe book before Rising Together.
But Rising Together is reallyvery much aimed at both
diversity in general, so it'snot just on women.
In fact, the genesis of howthis book came to be is useful
to understand it.
I was doing I was still askedto deliver a women's leadership
(14:27):
program at get ready, the LasVegas.
In Las Vegas, the ConstructionSuper Conference.
So this was construction fromall over, construction companies
from all over North America, soit's about 6,000 men who were
there.
And so I asked the conferenceorganizers who do you anticipate
(14:49):
will attend my workshop?
Because it was going to be abreakout, it wasn't going to be
a full session thing, and theysaid, well, we would expect
about 100, 150 women who want tolearn how to become more
effective and make their voicesheard in such a male dominated
sector.
And I said, fine, I can do that.
(15:12):
So this was after how Women Risecame out.
I think it was in 1918.
I mean 2018.
I'm like Sally, come on, I hadthat all.
So I went down and there werealmost 300 people there, and at
(15:32):
least half of them more thanhalf were men, and so I.
What I prepared was completely,you know, I didn't have any use
for it because I was directedvery much at women and here I
had a bunch of men sitting therein front of me as well.
So I began by asking the menwhy they came and they talked
unsurprisingly about they needtheir firms needed to get better
(15:52):
at understanding how to attractand engage and retain
especially talented women, orthey would not really be
competitive.
And then one executive stood upand said you know, please don't
tell us why this is important.
Don't waste your time tellingus why it is important.
We know we get that, but wedon't have a clue how to do it.
(16:18):
So I thought that's what weneed.
We need a how and that's what Iset myself to do in Rising
Together.
So I see it as all my booksconnect with one another, but I
see it as building on How WomenRise and taking it more to the
level of the whole organization,in the same way I had happened
(16:43):
with a connection to earlierbook.
Kyla Cofer (16:46):
Well, and then you did that.
You really did that.
In the first half of your bookyou're talking about, kind of,
you mentioned triggers, andthat's your word triggers that
you use and you set up differenttriggers, that that things that
we can be aware of, and thenbut you're not just be aware
this is how you work throughthem.
And then in your last half ofyour book, you're really kind of
(17:06):
breaking that down and talkingabout okay, now we're aware, now
we know how to work throughthose, but now this is how you
take the action to do those,instead of just sitting and
thinking about them.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthose two little pieces.
Sally Helgesen (17:18):
Well, yes, exactly the triggers I wanted to
look, I thought it wasimportant because you can
present a lot of, you know, hereare some behaviors that build
inclusive organizations and I'vehad a lot of experience
watching what works and whatdoesn't work.
So I, you know, had some prettygood ideas about that and I did
a lot of interviews about it aswell.
(17:39):
But I knew that it's not justknowing how to do things, it's
also being able to first addresswhat holds us back.
You know we may feel thisuncomfortable.
For example, one of the triggersin the book is fairness, and I
hear a lot about this.
You know, we feel we have anemotional response when we feel
(18:02):
we're in a situation where we'renot being treated fairly.
And I hear it from women.
You know these guys they can'thear a thing a woman says, you
know that it's very difficultfor a woman to get promoted
around here.
But I hear it from men as well.
You know women are getting allthe good jobs now We've got 50%,
(18:25):
so a lot of guys are notgetting, you know, promoted.
I don't feel like my work isbeing acknowledged.
So now you have men saying it.
You certainly have this acrossrace in different countries.
You have it across ethnicitiesin India play out.
So there are a wide variety oftriggers.
(18:45):
So that's an emotional responsethat we have that makes it
difficult to say, okay, here'san inclusive behavior, let me
practice this.
Well, we can't do that.
When we're emotionallyresponding, when we're stewing,
we may feel that other peopleare getting more visibility than
we are and we have, that's atrigger in the book, and that we
(19:06):
have trouble get bringingnotice to what our achievements
are.
We're uncomfortable doing thatbecause and we decide these
other people are showboats.
Networking, how we buildnetworks is an important trigger
that I talk about in the book.
Do we feel that we have accessto the networks in the
organization that really leadpeople to career development and
(19:32):
getting right mentors andsponsors, or do we feel shut out
of those?
And if we feel shut out ofthose, how do we take action?
That can be useful.
So, again, the idea is you knowwhat gets in the way, what
causes an emotional response.
Communication style can't standto listen to that person the
way she talks.
That woman is all over theplace.
(19:53):
That guy, you know he can't letanybody else get a word in
edgewise.
Those things are triggers thatmake it hard for us to behave in
ways that create inclusivecultures.
So I thought let's deal withthose first.
They're never talked about,they're never acknowledged, and
then we can set forth someinclusive behaviors that once
(20:14):
people are sort of have theemotional balance to be able to
make a decision, I'm going tobehave this way, they can do
that.
Kyla Cofer (20:22):
One thing I was having a little bit of trouble
understanding is I feel like inthe beginning of your book you
were talking about kind ofchanging the narratives that
we're telling ourselves,changing our stories, and kind
of the way we're thinking aboutdifferent situations and our
emotional triggers, so in theway that we notice and the way
we think about them.
And then the last half it waschanging the actions, and maybe
(20:43):
you can clarify for me about howthose two work together,
because I come from a psychologybackground of cognitive
behavioral therapy, where yourthoughts and beliefs lead to
your actions and I kind of feellike you were changing that up a
little bit.
Sally Helgesen (20:56):
I was changing it up a little bit and I'm a big
fan.
I'm not a psychologist, but I'ma big fan of cognitive
behavioral therapy and have infact benefited from it myself.
Going back to Dr David Burnsand some of his popularization
of the original work that wasdone, I think Martin Seligman, I
(21:16):
don't remember the names, butyeah.
So I believe in that.
But I think in personal therapyit's really important to get
these insights into our behaviorand then thoroughly adjust to
that and digest that informationin order to move forward In
organizations.
(21:36):
As you're trying to developyour career, as you're trying to
develop your leadership skills,as leaders are trying to put
together effective teams, thereisn't often the learning curve
or the patience to wait forpeople to go through the whole
psychological process of beingable to change their thinking so
(21:59):
they can change their acting.
So what I'm trying to do in thebook is show ways that you can
change how you act and that canshift how you think.
Now my understanding ofcognitive behavioral therapy is
that it also takes that point,that point of view.
If you change how you're acting, then that can begin to change
(22:20):
how you're thinking.
But I think it works reallywell in the whole space of
diversity and inclusion, becauseoften we'll have an idea that,
well, I've had a bad experiencewith this kind of person.
We hear people say that all thetime.
People aren't bigots, but justsay I've had a couple of bad
experiences with that kind ofperson.
So I'm a little suspicious ofthis kind of person.
(22:44):
But then if we act in a way bygiving them what I call giving
them the benefit of our goodwilland we don't get invested in a
narrative about why we thinkthey are a showboat, why we
think they don't speak up anddon't really contribute, aren't
really carrying their weight,whatever that is, as long as we
(23:05):
don't get too overly invested inthat narrative, we can leave
space for ourselves to act in aslightly different way.
That maximizes the chance thatwe'll develop a better
relationship with that person.
The result of that often is thatnot only do we side I thought I
(23:26):
didn't like Kyla based on thefact that she reminded me of X,
y and Z, but now that I'vegotten to know her, I really
really do like her.
Therefore, we'll become, forexample, thinking if I like Kyla
, that may mean that I should bemore open to cognitive
behavioral psychologists who arefemale in general.
(23:49):
You see what I'm saying.
This is kind of something thatI think is underrated, and we've
gotten overly invested, to somedegree at least, in
organization and the whole ideaof you've got to change the
mindset first.
In my personal experience, itis easier to act your way into a
(24:09):
new way of thinking than tothink your way into a new way of
acting.
That's what I'm proposing here,because otherwise we can get
stuck in trying to change ourthinking and not really figure
out how to begin to create abroader range of relationships.
Kyla Cofer (24:28):
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Kyla Cofer (26:10):
And really it sounds like we're just telling
ourselves a different story.
You mentioned this right off inchapter one, telling yourself a
different narrative about whatyou're experiencing.
So, yeah, maybe all of thepeople that I've worked for in
this category of people havebeen terrible bosses, but that
doesn't mean that every personin this category in the entire
(26:32):
world is a terrible boss.
You don't have to create thatnarrative in your mind.
So it's allowing myself theopportunity to have a different
story and to take action onthose stories.
So to say, okay, if A is true,it doesn't mean B is true, so I
can still follow B and try again, and try in that different way.
Sally Helgesen (26:51):
That's exactly right and it especially works
well in very specific instances.
For example, you know I've beentalking a little bit about
dancing around this issue ofvisibility.
This is a huge trigger in theworkplace.
This person always gets noticedwhen I speak up, no one ever
notices.
I notice that they don't pickup on what women say.
(27:14):
So what do we do?
Typically if we're in thatsituation, we talk to another
woman and say can you believethe guys here?
They can't listen to anything awoman says.
So that becomes our narrative.
So if we can rewrite that storyin very kind of specific terms,
okay, that was interesting.
I thought that Jim or Lou, Ellenor Muhammad would pick up on
(27:40):
what I said in that meeting.
He completely ignored it.
I'm wondering if perhaps hedidn't hear me.
I'm wondering if perhaps theway I framed it, he didn't
really resonate with it.
I think I'll give him a call orwrite him an email or go up to
him if we're in person and askhim and say you know I had made
(28:02):
this observation in that meeting.
It seemed very aligned withsome of the observations that
you had made and I'm wonderingif you noticed, if you had any
thoughts that you could share,because I'd like to really
understand how it could workeffectively together and I'd
love to get your thoughts there.
So there, what you're doing isyou're opening up, you're
(28:24):
questioning your own narrative.
You know, maybe he didn't hearme, Maybe I sounded all over the
place, maybe how I phrased itwas boring or unclear.
You're opening that space andthen you're giving him again the
benefit of your good wealth.
Maybe, you know, maybe it wasme, maybe it wasn't him, and
then, based on that, you aretaking an action to potentially
(28:48):
engage him as an ally, ratherthan simply, you know,
dismissing him like guys don'tget it, whatever.
So this is a mini example, butto me, this is how the rewriting
of the script or rewriting thenarrative works.
A lot of people don't like it.
First of all, you know theyquestion the whole concept that
(29:12):
your acting can change yourthinking.
It's sort of mindset first, soit's not the most popular point
of view, Even though I see itwork all the time.
It's also a littlecontroversial because you know
people who have been outside theleadership mainstream,
especially the mainstream in anorganization in the United
States, African Americans, manyLatinos, for example, in you
(29:36):
know, in India, people who areof a lower caste, for example,
or you know this is true allover the world.
There are groups; Japan, mygoodness Japan.
If you're not a Japanese male,you know who are you in the
organization, you're a newcomer.
We had to work hard to be ableto feel like we could speak up,
(29:58):
and part of what we want is tobe authentic and feel authentic.
So the biggest pushback I geton rewriting the script is I
don't think that would beauthentic to me.
That's not really what I'mseeing.
What I'm seeing is this guy isobnoxious, he's trying to suck
up all the air.
He doesn't give other peoplecredit for their ideas.
(30:18):
That's authentic to me.
So that's another kind ofbarrier there.
I think it's more important.
I think it's important to beauthentic.
But we need to question what isreally most authentic in us, at
our core, and often those kindsof ways of dismissing people
are not.
Kyla Cofer (30:37):
To question what's really authentic to us at our
core.
That one will leave me thinkingfor a minute, but one thing
that I really enjoyed throughhearing you talk now and hearing
about this is, you know, atfirst I was thinking this theme
I was hearing was boldness,because I'm thinking man to be
able to have that to show up youshared, you said it was a mini
(30:58):
example, but it's not a miniexample.
To me it's a major example ofwhen you go up to someone and
say, tell me more about whatjust happened in this meeting or
tell me about this idea thatyou brushed off of mine and like
asking about it to me toapproach that difficult
conversation, that potentiallyvery awkward conversation, seems
very, very bold, and so a lotof what I'm hearing through the
(31:20):
way that you talk about noticingthese triggers is having an
opportunity to be bold andpersistent, and I wonder if it's
just more of beingexceptionally curious.
Sally Helgesen (31:30):
Well, I think being exceptionally curious is a
great, great way to frame it,and I heard somebody say this
weekend somewhere, you know becurious instead of furious.
So when your idea is brushedoff like that, get curious about
why that happened and reallyunderstanding it.
And the one thing that I thinkis the most important in this is
when you go up to a person or,you know, say let's, I don't
(31:56):
want to be one tiny bitdefensive, so I think let me
understand what just happenedcomes off as defensive and it
also says I'm invested in mynarrative that something
important just happened rightthere.
Now that other person might noteven have noticed anything
happen.
So if you go up to them and sayI need to understand what just
(32:16):
happened, and they're gonna sayyou know who is this person
who's so over sensitive andtaking offense, at everything.
So I think that the way out ofthat is exactly what you say
getting curious.
You know I'm curious, I may.
I thought that I'd phrase thisidea in a compelling way, but it
didn't get much notice.
What was your impression diddid?
(32:38):
What were your thoughts did?
Did you notice?
What did you know?
What did you hear when I saidthat?
I'm very curious about that.
I'd love to have your opinion.
That's more inviting thananything that's even the
slightest bit defensive orputting it in the frame of a
difficult conversation.
I don't think it is a difficultconversation.
(32:59):
Does it require a certaindegree of being direct?
Yeah, sure.
But I don't think it's reallydifficult conversation.
It's a conversation about youknow, I'm trying to get better,
I value your opinion.
Would you take the time toshare that with me?
I think that's, in essence,what that is.
(33:19):
So I don't think that thisreally is a difficult
conversation.
Kyla Cofer (33:24):
Well, it did two things.
When you phrase it the way youdid, it allowed the other person
to feel good about themselvesbecause you're engaging their
opinion, so they're feel they'recontributing to your growth.
But also it's showing the otherperson that you're committed to
growth and you want to improveyourself and go forward in your
career in the position.
(33:44):
You got it.
Sally Helgesen (33:45):
Those are the two things.
You know I'm committed togrowth.
You know I'm really curiousabout your thoughts because I
believe that you can be helpfulto me.
I really value what you think.
Who's gonna say oh, you valuewhat I think, forget it, brush
you off.
You know, the more, the moreopen you are and the more, as
you say, curious you are, Ithink the more positive
(34:08):
responses you're going to get,and the person may not have a
thought in a minute.
They might say you know, Ireally thought about it.
You say I love it, if you givea little attention, I can come
back to you and ask if that'smore convenient.
And then if they say, yeah, notreally, you know, I don't have
time, it's fine, that's fine.
You know, maybe they've gotsomething going on.
Can I tell you, when I startedrewriting the script might for
(34:31):
myself and it was in the early,it was probably, it was in the
early nineties I was suddenlydoing a lot of speaking, which I
hadn't done in the past becausethe female advantage and
followed by that, the web ofinclusion, with both very
successful box, nineteen ninetyand ninety five, nineteen,
ninety five.
So I was doing a lot ofspeaking and I found myself very
distracted by people who didn'tseem to be paying attention
(34:56):
when I was up on stage.
And you know, I look at someoneI was pretty much pre cell
phone.
But I look at somebody and theybe writing something, that look
like they were doing some work,or they be talking to their
neighbor, or whatever.
They were looking around, arethey bored, or whatever.
I get focused on that personand I think, oh, am I bombing?
(35:16):
Am I dull?
What's gone wrong here?
Is this a mismatched audience?
You know, I could really godown the rabbit hole.
I realize this was not workingfor me at all because it made it
very difficult to be presentfor what was, for what I was
saying, because it was focusedon my perception of what
somebody might be thinking of me.
So I decided that what I wasgoing to do was, as soon as I
(35:39):
saw someone who look like theyweren't engaged, paying
attention, etc.
I was going to quickly tellmyself the story.
Oh, you probably had a fightwith his wife this morning.
Oh, maybe she found out one ofher kids is having problems in
school.
Oh, maybe the boss who sentthem here, they heard that boss
(36:00):
is not happy with the jobthey're doing, whatever it is.
I would make up on the spotsuper quick story to explain to
myself, based on basicallynothing, why that person wasn't
fascinated by every word thatwas coming out of my mouth.
And then I would move aroundand I would just look and try to
find somebody who look veryengaged now and focus on them.
(36:21):
It was so effective it just letme let that go.
I don't find, you know, I havecolleagues say you know, just
let it go, let it go, let it go.
I don't find that terriblyhelpful.
How do I let it go?
To me, re writing the narrative, even in the very small things
like that was the most helpfultechnique or how for letting go
(36:42):
that I've ever discovered.
So I've used it and developedit through the years in lots of
different work that I do, butthe first time I've shared it so
explicitly and and used in theworkshops that I do is doing
workshops and rising togetherwhen I was over in Asia last
week.
Kyla Cofer (37:02):
It's a very effective exercise to teach
people, so I've been focused on.
It's such a great coaching tooltoo, and what's really
noticeable to me in that is thatwe were writing a narrative
anyways, like the story that youwere telling yourself that that
person out there didn't careabout you and want to hear what
you had to say.
You didn't know, they weren'ttelling you that, you were
(37:24):
making up that narrative anyways, so you just made a new story,
and whether the story is true ornot does it matter, cuz you
didn't know if it was true inthe first place.
Anyways, the way that yourespond is different, because we
realize that it wasn't aboutyou in the first place, exactly
exactly and you really.
Sally Helgesen (37:41):
That's.
That's the point.
It doesn't matter whether thestory you tell yourself is true
or not.
You don't have all the details,you don't have all the
information.
It's just is the new story thatyou write, is the narrative you
write.
It gives the other person thebenefit of your good will.
(38:03):
I don't want to say benefit ofthe doubt, but you know, I want
to come out and positive waybenefit of your good will.
All that matters is that thatserves you and it helps you let
go of a negative presumption andit gives you a path, this is
most important, a path to onwhich to take positive action;
(38:24):
an action that tries to engagethem as an ally, and action that
tells them you value what theyhave to say, so will they share
that with you.
All those things are actions,and that's what we want to be.
We don't want to just be stuckin our minds, because then we're
never really gonna makeprogress on this.
So very, very important pointthat you made, it doesn't matter
(38:47):
whether the story is true.
How does it serve us?
Does it give us a path toaction?
Kyla Cofer (38:53):
Yeah, absolutely Well, thank you.
Well, let me ask you this.
You've been in this, the fieldof leadership, for 30 something
years now.
How have you seen some reallypositive changes over your
career?
And then, with that, what'syour dream about the future of
leadership?
Sally Helgesen (39:09):
Okay, that's two questions.
I'll start with the first andyou may have to remind me of the
second, but I've watchedtremendous change.
I think it is very unbalanced,very, very positive.
Do we see some horrific leaderstoday, both in the private and
public sector?
Oh, absolutely, but I wasaround when there was some
(39:30):
pretty egregious behavior in thepast too, so it's not all
positive.
But I do think that both womenand and in the United States,
for example, people of color andpeople from ethnic backgrounds
that have not been heavilyrepresented at the leadership
level, number one expectacceptance in a way that they
(39:56):
did not before, that they havemore confidence in their own
ability to make a contributionin as leaders or as experts.
They have more confidence inwhat they have to contribute.
They have much greatersolidarity with one another, and
this is very, very important.
(40:17):
You know used to be difficultto get senior women in an
organization to support juniorwomen or women coming up,
because they would feel like,well, I don't want to get known
as you know, someone who justcares about women.
I want to be a leader, I wantto be respected.
So it was very difficult to dothat.
I don't see that hardly at allanymore.
(40:38):
I see women in senior positionseager to step up and support
women coming up same acrossEthnic lines, racial lines and
certainly in terms of age aswell and sexual identity.
So all those things arepositive.
Much more solidarity, theinternal networks, you know the
(41:00):
employee resource groups orbusiness resource groups, they
call them that.
Sometimes they are amanifestation of that.
They're much stronger, they'rebetter funded and they really
foment solidarity, a spirit ofsolidarity t hat is very, very
positive.
I think also that and there'smore there's more recognition
(41:22):
that all of us need alliesbroadly and a determination to
develop the skills that willenable us to enlist allies
across a range of borders, oneof the things I'm trying to do
in Rising Together.
But overall the big deal is, Ithink how we define excellence
in leadership has beenrevolutionized in the 37 years
(41:48):
that I've been in this field.
It used to be the toughesttop-down boss you could imagine.
He was a great leader.
You know you.
You know you got to break someeggs to make an omelet, that
sort of approach, and you saw it.
You know really, in the waythat Jack Welch of GE was
(42:08):
lionized, neutron Jack as he wasknown, and a lot of other top
leaders.
You know Bob Crandall atAmerican Airlines, etc.
etc.
I'm not necessarily picking onthem, but they, you know they
exemplified what organizationsaspired to in leadership back
(42:28):
then.
You didn't hear about empathyand leadership level ever.
You didn't hear about theimportance of building
relationships.
You didn't hear about the valueof direct communication.
You heard about top-down, he'stough, he makes the tough
decisions.
You know, people don't like it,too bad my way or the highway.
(42:50):
So I think that that's reallygotten re defined.
Now are there some leaders whodon't exemplify it?
Absolutely.
But I don't think organizationsare saying you know, we're
looking for the toughest guy outthere and we don't care, you
know, if he's has poorrelationships, skill of building
skills, etc.
That's.
That's not what I see,certainly in global
(43:11):
organizations around the world.
Kyla Cofer (43:13):
Yeah, I've actually seen the opposite, that that we
don't want somebody who's likethat.
Exactly, that's what I mean.
Sally Helgesen (43:18):
It's been redefined.
What does excellence inleadership look like?
How do we define it?
That has changed, and it haschanged tremendously for the
good.
You know, I started my careerearly in the advertising
business back in 1968, and itreally was the madman era.
(43:39):
It was extraordinary.
What was tolerated back thenand that's not tolerated anymore
.
And it doesn't happen, ofcourse, because are there bad
people?
Of course the bad people, but Ithink the system is much better
at leaving them out.
Kyla Cofer (43:55):
So tell me more about your.
What's your dream, then, forthe future of leadership?
Where do you want to see us go?
Where do you see us going fromhere with as much as the United
States and I talk about theUnited States was, as much as
the United States has grown inLeadership development over the
last 35 years?
Where do you see us going andin what place?
Sally Helgesen (44:12):
do you?
Kyla Cofer (44:12):
dream seeing us in.
Sally Helgesen (44:14):
My dream is that this fantastic younger
generation, gen Z, is reallygoing to transform how we view
leadership.
I see evidence of it.
I follow a lot of sort of Gen Zperspectives on Twitter, very,
very young people who are reallypolitical activists in the
(44:38):
mainstream not, you know, wayout on the fringes, but
political activists on themainstream who are very, very
intelligent, very dedicated.
Very you know a lot of it isthe whole global warming issue.
How are we going to deal withglobal warming?
It is a live issue for veryyoung people.
(45:00):
Their lives are good.
They're going to be around in2051.
For example, we were talkingabout Singapore when we signed
on, in Singapore, I just gotback from Singapore, a fantastic
place.
I was seeing on the front pageof the New York Post that in
2050, Singapore will have 200believe it was and 67 days a
(45:24):
year of extremely dangerous heat.
That's in 2050.
Now, probably not going to bearound them, but these younger
people will definitely be aroundthere.
So these issues they arepassionate about.
They are deeply engaged.
They see them as life and deathissues.
So my dream for the future isthat we will learn from them
(45:48):
what leadership looks like, andI see that happen.
Kyla Cofer (45:52):
Wow, Sally, I want to wrap up with asking you my
two questions I ask every guest,and the first one is what does
the word integrity mean to you?
Sally Helgesen (46:00):
Integrity means a willingness to tell the truth,
even when there's a cost to it,and to speak that truth.
That's why I so advocate,advocate being direct about what
you see, what you notice, whatyou value and what your story is
, how you connect the dots.
I think that's where integrityreally lives.
Kyla Cofer (46:23):
Hmm, my last question is the word balance.
It can be kind of acontroversial word and so I have
to change the use of the wordthere, but I want to know how
you personally find balance, andwhat does balance look like to
you?
You know you have this busylife, you travel over the world
speaking all these things, butwhat does it look like for you
to have balance?
Sally Helgesen (46:43):
Balance, for one thing means to me that I am
able and I am comfortable and Iam willing to assert what my
boundaries are to say no, I cando this, but I don't think I can
do that.
If I'm going to come and dothis work, here are the couple
things that I need and here iswhat I most hope to accomplish.
(47:03):
This is what will make thissuccessful for me.
I'm not laying down the law.
I'm open to listening to people, but the ability to assert our
own boundaries and say what'simportant to us is really it's
key to balance, and I think that, especially for women, but also
for many people who are outsidethe leadership mainstream,
(47:27):
there is often a tendency to tryto manage other people's
expectations and privilege whateverybody else is going to think
about you rather than say thisis what I need to make sure I do
the most effective job.
Kyla Cofer (47:45):
I'm so glad you had mentioned the word boundaries
because if there's anybody elselistening whose favorite word is
boundaries, like me, we've beentalking about it quite a bit
without actually using the word,and your book just really
discusses a lot of it.
You I don't know if you evenactually mentioned the word
boundaries in your book, but youare your.
That's what you're bringing up.
You're saying it's about havinghealthy boundaries and about
(48:05):
knowing what you need and andpursuing those things, and in a
healthy, positive way.
And so just thank you forsetting that example for us.
And, sally, thanks so much forjoining me on this podcast.
It's like I said before, it'sjust such an honor to have you
here and learn from you, and Ijust appreciate all the noticing
that you've done and the wisdomthat you've shared.
Sally Helgesen (48:23):
Thank you, Kyla, I really enjoyed it.
Kyla Cofer (48:28):
So I started this podcast because I wanted to
learn and grow in my leadershipjourney and I have been so
incredibly inspired by theguests and the conversations.
So once the interview ends, Iactually keep the conversation
going because I have found thatsometimes the richest part of
the conversation is when we feellike the interviews over and we
can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation.
(48:50):
Also, if you've noticed, ifyou've been following this
podcast for some time, I used toask every guest two questions
what does integrity mean to themand what does balance look like
to them?
Well, I haven't stopped askingthose questions.
We're just putting those overon our patreon page.
So go check it out at patreon.
com/ leadership school and forsix dollars and fifty cents a
(49:12):
month you can support thispodcast.
It takes a lot to produce everysingle episode and, honestly, I
could use a little bit ofsupport.
So anything that you're able tocontribute would really mean a
lot to me and would able to helpme to continue to bring these
high caliber guests in to haveconversations on what does it
look like to be an extraordinaryleader and how do we
(49:34):
practically do that.
So those conversations arecontinuing over at patreon.
com/le adership school, whereI'm asking guests some extra
questions, some bonus questions.
You'll get some bonus contentover there, so be sure to go
check it out.
Thanks so much for your supportand thanks so much for
subscribing, listening andsharing this podcast.
It really does mean a lot andI'm so honored to show up here
(49:56):
in your podcast feed.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening.
If you've liked what you heardand you want some more tools and
resources to help you on yourjourney, go check out kyla cofer
.
com/ free stuff.
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