July 18, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode of the Leading and Learning Through Safety podcast, Dr. Mark French explores the critical link between psychological safety, rest, and physical safety in the workplace. Traditionally, safety professionals begin with physical safety as a foundation, but Mark challenges that order by highlighting emerging research suggesting psychological safety—particularly the ability to truly rest—is foundational to overall well-being.
Referencing a meta-analysis from the Journal of Occupational Psychology, Mark discusses how earlier studies indicated vacations often fail to provide adequate rest. However, newer research shows a positive trend: people are learning how to rest more effectively, leading to improved psychological safety. Mark emphasizes that true rest looks different for everyone—some recharge through activity, others through solitude—and it's essential to identify what genuinely replenishes your energy.
He also reflects on how organizational culture plays a significant role in whether employees can actually disconnect. Toxic or unsupportive environments can sabotage recovery and lead to burnout, which not only harms individuals but amplifies risk in physical safety. Fatigue and disengagement at work can be precursors to unsafe behaviors, especially when employees are merely surviving rather than thriving.
Ultimately, Dr. French urges leaders to consider safety as holistic—encompassing physical, mental, and emotional well-being. He reminds listeners that burnout and apathy are the enemies of engagement and safety, and that promoting genuine rest is a vital, often overlooked component of a strong safety culture.
The episode concludes with a personal invitation to the Kentucky Governor’s Safety Conference, where Mark will be speaking on culture and safety.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:01):
This week on the podcast, we're talking about
psychological safety. I knowwe've always mixed it in this
week, we're going to focus onthat in the needs of rest for
good safety. With our team thisweek on the podcast, you
(00:30):
Mark, welcome to the leading andlearning through safety podcast.
Your host is Dr Mark French.
Mark's passion is helpingorganizations motivate their
teams. This podcast is focusedon bringing out the best in
leadership through creatingstrong values, learning
opportunities, teamwork andsafety. Nothing is more
(00:51):
important than protecting yourpeople. Safety creates an
environment for empathy,innovation and empowerment,
together, we'll discover meaningand purpose through shaping our
safety culture. Thanks forjoining us this episode and now
here is Dr Mark French. You You.
(01:29):
Hello and welcome to thisepisode of the leading in
learning through safety podcast.
Thank you for joining me. Ideeply appreciate being part of
your podcast rotation, or maybethis is the first time, and so
happy you joined me this week,we're going to talk about
something a little bitdifferent, but not too far
(01:51):
different.
Usually we start off withphysical safety being the key to
developing further intopsychological safety. Today, I
actually am going to switch thataround a little bit. I came
across a really interestingarticle, and I didn't, I'll be
(02:13):
honest, I read the abstract longenough to go, Okay, that's
interesting to see that we'reseeing some new trends, and
let's talk about that, becauseit's psychological safety first,
and I truly believe that leads,in this case, to physical
safety. So let's talk about it.
The Journal of Occupationalpsychology, great journal
(02:34):
article came out. They did ameta analysis looking at other
research articles that looked athow refreshed do people feel
when they come back fromvacation. Now, early evidence
had suggested that a vacation isreally not as effective at
(02:57):
giving someone rest or allowingsomeone to recharge as it really
should be, and there can be alot of reasons for that. I mean,
if you ever come back fromvacation felt more tired, more
work was on your table. You'reworried about the work. Or maybe
vacation was to get out thereand do stuff for the family and
do stuff with the kids and bebusy, busy, busy. And maybe that
(03:20):
didn't work well, or maybe itwas too quiet and you needed
some some relaxation, weekendwarrior kind of work. So there's
a lot of psychological safetythat comes from being able to
rest effectively. And in thiscase, the the
research, the bodies of researchput together had had recognized
(03:42):
that maybe it's not aseffective. Well, this was a
newer analysis that wanted totake because now it's being
studied more and more and moreabout the effects of vacation,
on psychological safety, theeffects of rest, essentially,
are you able to effectively restwhen you're away from your work,
and whether that be a long termvacation, like a few days off,
(04:04):
or whether it be just rest, ingeneral, how does that affect
you? And there this after moreresearch had been done, another
meta analysis looked at it andsaid, Actually, we're seeing a
trend now in the bodies ofresearch that says that it can
be effective, that people arebeginning to use it in a way
that creates effectiveness. NowI am going to take one step back
(04:27):
and say that I am an assessmentjunkie. I love personality
assessments. I think they allhave to be interpreted and
talked about and debriefed andunpacked in some form. I think
they give you some really coolinsights overall. I think they
(04:47):
can also be misused a lot.
It takes some work to reallydigest the material when you
start looking at an assessmentof any kind, and it helps to
maybe even be able.
To repeat something similar, toget confirmation through it
through various and there's abunch of ways to look at it, a
bunch of opport opportunities, abunch of different assessments
(05:11):
that are out there. Any of themcan give you some insight of who
you are and what you're aboutand how you function. Now, part
of any assessment will tell youwhat recharges you. That's part
of kind of even when we look atextraversion versus
introversion, it's about rest.
It's about what gives you, whatfeeds you when you need it. Do
(05:33):
you need quiet rest? Do you needto be around people that you
love and know and and bring Letthat energy fill you up. You've
got to know what feeds you,and that takes some
introspection, and that's a lotdeeper than I am going to go on
(05:54):
this podcast,but it does, I will say the most
important thing about gettingrest is knowing what gives you
rest. Is it working in youryard? Is it being with your
kids? Is it taking a walk? Is itwatching TV and not just zoning
out? But is it something thatactually gets you the ability to
(06:15):
kind ofbring yourself back. Maybe it's
reading a book, maybe it'splaying video games. Now,
anything in excess can bedetrimental, but to know what
gives you rest is the first key,and also to give you what gives
you anxiety when coming backfrom rest? Do you is there
(06:35):
methods or ways that you canavoid that. And does your
organization allow you thatfreedom? I've worked with many
organizations that I would sayare not good, toxic, even to
where you're shamed for takingthat time off, and we read about
(07:00):
it. There's article afterarticle news stories of people
who talk about these abusiveworkplaces and how you can't get
away from it, and how it pushesyou to never get the rest, but
to burn out. And ultimately,that creates a very unstable
psychological safety for allthose in the organization, and
(07:23):
the organization cannot continueto function well when that's
happening, because it depends onpeople, and if you're burning
out your people, you get veryshort term gains, but long term,
it doesn't work out at all. Butlet's go back to the article,
where it talks about that we'reactually beginning to see, and
maybe it is because peoplerecognize that they were coming
(07:45):
back from vacation and notfeeling it like that. I need a
vacation for my vacation, andthis is something I'm I'll be
very personal with this. I'vehad to switch up in my life
because I always thought thevacations had to be like you do
as much as you can. You pack asmuch in. You do that. And
honestly, my wife gets rechargedfrom that, like when she goes to
(08:07):
an amusement park. It's likeeverything has to happen. It all
my daughter the same way, verymuch the same. They need every
moment. Let's do let's go. Let'sget it all. I want to see it
all, do it all. Me and my sonare a little bit different. We
prefer, you know, you go out anddo a little bit, you explore,
you see some things, you learnsome things, and then you kind
(08:29):
of come back and take a rest,maybe enjoy the local food, and
take a break and breathe for awhile. Not have to go, go, go,
but just sit back and enjoy themoment of where you're at.
You've got to know what it takesto be that way. And it took me a
long time to recognize the factthat it was not good to come
(08:51):
back from a vacation and belike, Oh my god, I can't wait to
get back to work, because it'sgot to be more calm than what
I'm going through here. And as asafety professional and as
someone in people work,I've gotten to where I don't
like the adrenaline spike like Iused to, because it feels like
every time I get a phone call oran email from certain people, my
adrenaline spikes anyway,because I know it's not going to
(09:14):
be good news. And so I'vegotten, I've gotten to where a
roller coaster just doesn't doit for me. It's like, you know,
I've already spent all of thatanxiety and adrenaline already.
I don't really need any more tomake me feel whole.
It's important, though, that weget enough rest to be able to
(09:37):
function properly. Now, on thenext half, when we come back
after the short break,I'm going to tie this into
physical safety if you don'thave enough rest, if you're if
you're mentally and evenphysically not ready
for the day that's ahead. It. Itcreates possibilities for it's
(09:59):
a.
Great amplifier for unsafebehavior in the workplace. We
have to recognize that, thatthese safety is is totality.
It's the total person, and Ibelieve in that it's a holistic
view of person, of people, ofthe organization. Let's talk
about that when we come back onthe second half of the leading
and learning through safetypodcast, you are listening to
(10:25):
the leading and learning throughsafety podcast with Dr Mark
French,dsda Consulting. Learn you lead
others. The Myers, Briggs TypeIndicator is an amazing tool.
Problem is that it can be easilymisinterpreted. Dr Mark French
is MBTI certified and ready tohelp you discover your inner
(10:47):
strengths. The MBTI assessmentcan help with team building,
stress management,communication, conflict
management, and so much moreindividual and group sessions
are available to help youdiscover what makes you great.
For more information, visit uson the web, AT T, S, D, A
consulting.comand welcome back to the second
(11:10):
half of the leading and learningthrough safety podcast.
This week, we're talking aboutrest, rest cycles and being able
to get the rest you need. Andthis all stemmed from an article
I read saying that in looking atthe body of knowledge that's out
there right now, earlyindicators said that maybe
(11:33):
vacation isn't as effective asit should be. Now, with new
research being actually drivenby looking at this phenomenon,
we're seeing that maybe it'sactually more beneficial than we
thought. So it's actually it isbecoming more helpful, even
though it's not perfected andnot as good as it should be.
It's at least coming up. We'rewe're seeing improvement, and
(11:53):
it's probably because people aretaking control of themselves. It
also could be generalgenerational differences. We
have to, I think there's a lotmore we have to research to
really understand what'shappening and is it cultural? Is
it, is it more working wise, oris it personal? How? Why are we
seeing some changes here as wecontinue that body of knowledge
(12:15):
and that body of research? But Iwant to focus now on the
physical safety of it. We as aperson, and I say this so often,
we as a person, we bring ourtotal selves to work, regardless
whether the company wants us to,accepts us, to opens up to us to
do that. We do it. We can't helpit. We are who we are, and we're
(12:38):
going to bring that to work. Andif it means that we're fatigued,
or if we're tired or if we areburned out, we're bringing it.
And in those cases, that cancreate significant personal
risk. If someone is tired orburned out, or doesn't have
enough rest, or is not gettingthe right rest, or not getting
(12:59):
their vacation, or not using orthe vacation is being used not
for rest,then what you create is an
amplification of risk. So justimagine you're already tired,
you're coming in and you'rehaving to do it again, and you
don't maybe you have limitedvacation. That's the way we are
in the United States is limitedvacation, and you're thinking
(13:21):
about, okay, when, when will benot next one be, when can I get
my next time off? And that focusdistracts from the safe
behaviors or the criticalthinking we need to keep
ourselves safe. That's a it'svery powerful when you think
about how complicated people canbe when we bring them to work,
I'm complicated. I get itand I see it every day, and I
(13:45):
wish there was more I can donow. One I think we as a
collective can talk more aboutit, of making sure our people
get the rest they need, thatwe're watching out for them,
that we recognize the signs, butsometimes it's cultural in the
organization itself. And I washaving a discussion with someone
about, you know, how do you copewhen things are not so good at
(14:06):
work? How do youa professional discussion on,
like, looking back at my career,looking back at all the
situations I've been in, andeven with their situations and
and just, you know, reminiscing,essentially, but talking about
like, how do you cope when thesetypes of things are happening?
Andone of the interesting items is
(14:28):
when you think about coping, andyou think about psychology, the
question came up is thatin this, if the organization is
abusive, there is no coping,there's only surviving and
trying to get something else.
(14:48):
And I mean, that's saying a lotwhen you decide to, like,
actually deem a culture oforganizational work abusive. I
mean, we've used the word toxic.
We've seen these words in thepress, abusive, toxic, those.
Types of words, but when weactually label it, and we say
no, that behavior, theorganizational behavior, could
be that and very much should belabeled that, is there any even
(15:11):
coping, or are we trulyaccepting the fact that this is
going to be bad and it can't begood without significant,
significant energy of change.
And then I even put I gofurther. It's like, does an
organization like that even careabout safety in the first place?
So would we even have to worryabout keeping people safe
because they may not even carebecause of that? Or maybe they
(15:33):
have that safety person who'strying their best to be that
person there to help andstruggling and having
difficulty, or an HR personwho's trying to manage the
people in trying to like, yeah,I get it.
And I still remember long timeago that it was not a good it
(15:57):
was it was a tough situation wewere in business wise, and I
remember we were having kind ofan all hands meeting at the
site, and everybody wascomplaining, complaining,
complaining. And even the plantmanager stood up and said, Look,
I'm just here until I can findsomething else too.
I think everybody's jaw, justlike the room went silent, just
(16:20):
because they're like, Oh, did hesay that? It's like, wow, we
just admitted the situationwe're in is not good. We're all
trying to get out, we're alltrying to find the change, and
we're just, we're just allhanging on together,
and in those organizations, howdo we continue? There's no
thriving, there's onlysurviving, and we have to
(16:42):
survive through first focusingon getting out of it safely.
I know that's tough, but werevert back. Let's go back to
Maslow. There's food, water andshelter. Got it through having
the job. Maybe struggle, but wegot the job. The next one is
safety. We have to feel safe,and we have to figure out a way
(17:03):
that, even despite all of what'sgoing on, that we back up and go
we cannot be detrimental tohuman life. And if it means that
someone needs to get more restto be able to do that, we try to
find ways. I know I've digresseda little bit, but this really,
this hit me hard when I readthis about, you know, how, how
effective is vacation, and howeffective is rest, and are
(17:27):
people even getting it? Becausethe study only looks at those
who are getting it, and there'sso much more to look at, to
think about, what creates thatadditional risk of just being
apathetic? I think the ultimate,the ultimate, final step of like
to me, when it gets there, isapathy. And I've always one of
(17:48):
my things is I love to seepassion in the workplace, either
good, bad, whatever you can turnif you've got energy, you can
direct energy, you can useenergy. But if it's gone, if
there is no energy to createthat energy that's really
difficult, and that's when whenapathy sets in. You have a very
difficult task of creating aworkplace that will even try to
(18:14):
focus on safety.
Thanks for joining me on thisepisode of the leading and
learning through safety podcast.
Just a reminder, coming up inAugust, there is the Kentucky
governor's safety conference inOwensboro, Kentucky, my home
state, always a pleasure, alwaysan honor to be part of of that.
I'll be speaking there aboutcreating culture and using
(18:35):
safety to create that, thatultimate culture for your team.
Always happy to be speaking inmy home state, if you're around,
it's a great conference.
I wish you the very best in thenext week and until next time we
chat, stay safe.
(19:02):
Thank you for listening to theleading and learning through
safety podcast. More content isavailable online at www dot tsda
consulting.comall the opinions expressed on
the podcast are solelyattributed to the individual and
not affiliated with any businessentity. This podcast is for
(19:24):
informational and entertainmentpurposes. It is not a substitute
for proper policy, appropriatetraining or legal advice.
YouThis has been the leading and
(19:54):
learning through safety podcast.
You.
This week on the podcast, we're talking about
psychological safety. I knowwe've always mixed it in this
week, we're going to focus onthat in the needs of rest for
good safety. With our team thisweek on the podcast, you
(00:30):
Mark, welcome to the leading andlearning through safety podcast.
Your host is Dr Mark French.
Mark's passion is helpingorganizations motivate their
teams. This podcast is focusedon bringing out the best in
leadership through creatingstrong values, learning
opportunities, teamwork andsafety. Nothing is more
(00:51):
important than protecting yourpeople. Safety creates an
environment for empathy,innovation and empowerment,
together, we'll discover meaningand purpose through shaping our
safety culture. Thanks forjoining us this episode and now
here is Dr Mark French. You You.
(01:29):
Hello and welcome to thisepisode of the leading in
learning through safety podcast.
Thank you for joining me. Ideeply appreciate being part of
your podcast rotation, or maybethis is the first time, and so
happy you joined me this week,we're going to talk about
something a little bitdifferent, but not too far
(01:51):
different.
Usually we start off withphysical safety being the key to
developing further intopsychological safety. Today, I
actually am going to switch thataround a little bit. I came
across a really interestingarticle, and I didn't, I'll be
(02:13):
honest, I read the abstract longenough to go, Okay, that's
interesting to see that we'reseeing some new trends, and
let's talk about that, becauseit's psychological safety first,
and I truly believe that leads,in this case, to physical
safety. So let's talk about it.
The Journal of Occupationalpsychology, great journal
(02:34):
article came out. They did ameta analysis looking at other
research articles that looked athow refreshed do people feel
when they come back fromvacation. Now, early evidence
had suggested that a vacation isreally not as effective at
(02:57):
giving someone rest or allowingsomeone to recharge as it really
should be, and there can be alot of reasons for that. I mean,
if you ever come back fromvacation felt more tired, more
work was on your table. You'reworried about the work. Or maybe
vacation was to get out thereand do stuff for the family and
do stuff with the kids and bebusy, busy, busy. And maybe that
(03:20):
didn't work well, or maybe itwas too quiet and you needed
some some relaxation, weekendwarrior kind of work. So there's
a lot of psychological safetythat comes from being able to
rest effectively. And in thiscase, the the
research, the bodies of researchput together had had recognized
(03:42):
that maybe it's not aseffective. Well, this was a
newer analysis that wanted totake because now it's being
studied more and more and moreabout the effects of vacation,
on psychological safety, theeffects of rest, essentially,
are you able to effectively restwhen you're away from your work,
and whether that be a long termvacation, like a few days off,
(04:04):
or whether it be just rest, ingeneral, how does that affect
you? And there this after moreresearch had been done, another
meta analysis looked at it andsaid, Actually, we're seeing a
trend now in the bodies ofresearch that says that it can
be effective, that people arebeginning to use it in a way
that creates effectiveness. NowI am going to take one step back
(04:27):
and say that I am an assessmentjunkie. I love personality
assessments. I think they allhave to be interpreted and
talked about and debriefed andunpacked in some form. I think
they give you some really coolinsights overall. I think they
(04:47):
can also be misused a lot.
It takes some work to reallydigest the material when you
start looking at an assessmentof any kind, and it helps to
maybe even be able.
To repeat something similar, toget confirmation through it
through various and there's abunch of ways to look at it, a
bunch of opport opportunities, abunch of different assessments
(05:11):
that are out there. Any of themcan give you some insight of who
you are and what you're aboutand how you function. Now, part
of any assessment will tell youwhat recharges you. That's part
of kind of even when we look atextraversion versus
introversion, it's about rest.
It's about what gives you, whatfeeds you when you need it. Do
(05:33):
you need quiet rest? Do you needto be around people that you
love and know and and bring Letthat energy fill you up. You've
got to know what feeds you,and that takes some
introspection, and that's a lotdeeper than I am going to go on
(05:54):
this podcast,but it does, I will say the most
important thing about gettingrest is knowing what gives you
rest. Is it working in youryard? Is it being with your
kids? Is it taking a walk? Is itwatching TV and not just zoning
out? But is it something thatactually gets you the ability to
(06:15):
kind ofbring yourself back. Maybe it's
reading a book, maybe it'splaying video games. Now,
anything in excess can bedetrimental, but to know what
gives you rest is the first key,and also to give you what gives
you anxiety when coming backfrom rest? Do you is there
(06:35):
methods or ways that you canavoid that. And does your
organization allow you thatfreedom? I've worked with many
organizations that I would sayare not good, toxic, even to
where you're shamed for takingthat time off, and we read about
(07:00):
it. There's article afterarticle news stories of people
who talk about these abusiveworkplaces and how you can't get
away from it, and how it pushesyou to never get the rest, but
to burn out. And ultimately,that creates a very unstable
psychological safety for allthose in the organization, and
(07:23):
the organization cannot continueto function well when that's
happening, because it depends onpeople, and if you're burning
out your people, you get veryshort term gains, but long term,
it doesn't work out at all. Butlet's go back to the article,
where it talks about that we'reactually beginning to see, and
maybe it is because peoplerecognize that they were coming
(07:45):
back from vacation and notfeeling it like that. I need a
vacation for my vacation, andthis is something I'm I'll be
very personal with this. I'vehad to switch up in my life
because I always thought thevacations had to be like you do
as much as you can. You pack asmuch in. You do that. And
honestly, my wife gets rechargedfrom that, like when she goes to
(08:07):
an amusement park. It's likeeverything has to happen. It all
my daughter the same way, verymuch the same. They need every
moment. Let's do let's go. Let'sget it all. I want to see it
all, do it all. Me and my sonare a little bit different. We
prefer, you know, you go out anddo a little bit, you explore,
you see some things, you learnsome things, and then you kind
(08:29):
of come back and take a rest,maybe enjoy the local food, and
take a break and breathe for awhile. Not have to go, go, go,
but just sit back and enjoy themoment of where you're at.
You've got to know what it takesto be that way. And it took me a
long time to recognize the factthat it was not good to come
(08:51):
back from a vacation and belike, Oh my god, I can't wait to
get back to work, because it'sgot to be more calm than what
I'm going through here. And as asafety professional and as
someone in people work,I've gotten to where I don't
like the adrenaline spike like Iused to, because it feels like
every time I get a phone call oran email from certain people, my
adrenaline spikes anyway,because I know it's not going to
(09:14):
be good news. And so I'vegotten, I've gotten to where a
roller coaster just doesn't doit for me. It's like, you know,
I've already spent all of thatanxiety and adrenaline already.
I don't really need any more tomake me feel whole.
It's important, though, that weget enough rest to be able to
(09:37):
function properly. Now, on thenext half, when we come back
after the short break,I'm going to tie this into
physical safety if you don'thave enough rest, if you're if
you're mentally and evenphysically not ready
for the day that's ahead. It. Itcreates possibilities for it's
(09:59):
a.
Great amplifier for unsafebehavior in the workplace. We
have to recognize that, thatthese safety is is totality.
It's the total person, and Ibelieve in that it's a holistic
view of person, of people, ofthe organization. Let's talk
about that when we come back onthe second half of the leading
and learning through safetypodcast, you are listening to
(10:25):
the leading and learning throughsafety podcast with Dr Mark
French,dsda Consulting. Learn you lead
others. The Myers, Briggs TypeIndicator is an amazing tool.
Problem is that it can be easilymisinterpreted. Dr Mark French
is MBTI certified and ready tohelp you discover your inner
(10:47):
strengths. The MBTI assessmentcan help with team building,
stress management,communication, conflict
management, and so much moreindividual and group sessions
are available to help youdiscover what makes you great.
For more information, visit uson the web, AT T, S, D, A
consulting.comand welcome back to the second
(11:10):
half of the leading and learningthrough safety podcast.
This week, we're talking aboutrest, rest cycles and being able
to get the rest you need. Andthis all stemmed from an article
I read saying that in looking atthe body of knowledge that's out
there right now, earlyindicators said that maybe
(11:33):
vacation isn't as effective asit should be. Now, with new
research being actually drivenby looking at this phenomenon,
we're seeing that maybe it'sactually more beneficial than we
thought. So it's actually it isbecoming more helpful, even
though it's not perfected andnot as good as it should be.
It's at least coming up. We'rewe're seeing improvement, and
(11:53):
it's probably because people aretaking control of themselves. It
also could be generalgenerational differences. We
have to, I think there's a lotmore we have to research to
really understand what'shappening and is it cultural? Is
it, is it more working wise, oris it personal? How? Why are we
seeing some changes here as wecontinue that body of knowledge
(12:15):
and that body of research? But Iwant to focus now on the
physical safety of it. We as aperson, and I say this so often,
we as a person, we bring ourtotal selves to work, regardless
whether the company wants us to,accepts us, to opens up to us to
do that. We do it. We can't helpit. We are who we are, and we're
(12:38):
going to bring that to work. Andif it means that we're fatigued,
or if we're tired or if we areburned out, we're bringing it.
And in those cases, that cancreate significant personal
risk. If someone is tired orburned out, or doesn't have
enough rest, or is not gettingthe right rest, or not getting
(12:59):
their vacation, or not using orthe vacation is being used not
for rest,then what you create is an
amplification of risk. So justimagine you're already tired,
you're coming in and you'rehaving to do it again, and you
don't maybe you have limitedvacation. That's the way we are
in the United States is limitedvacation, and you're thinking
(13:21):
about, okay, when, when will benot next one be, when can I get
my next time off? And that focusdistracts from the safe
behaviors or the criticalthinking we need to keep
ourselves safe. That's a it'svery powerful when you think
about how complicated people canbe when we bring them to work,
I'm complicated. I get itand I see it every day, and I
(13:45):
wish there was more I can donow. One I think we as a
collective can talk more aboutit, of making sure our people
get the rest they need, thatwe're watching out for them,
that we recognize the signs, butsometimes it's cultural in the
organization itself. And I washaving a discussion with someone
about, you know, how do you copewhen things are not so good at
(14:06):
work? How do youa professional discussion on,
like, looking back at my career,looking back at all the
situations I've been in, andeven with their situations and
and just, you know, reminiscing,essentially, but talking about
like, how do you cope when thesetypes of things are happening?
Andone of the interesting items is
(14:28):
when you think about coping, andyou think about psychology, the
question came up is thatin this, if the organization is
abusive, there is no coping,there's only surviving and
trying to get something else.
(14:48):
And I mean, that's saying a lotwhen you decide to, like,
actually deem a culture oforganizational work abusive. I
mean, we've used the word toxic.
We've seen these words in thepress, abusive, toxic, those.
Types of words, but when weactually label it, and we say
no, that behavior, theorganizational behavior, could
be that and very much should belabeled that, is there any even
(15:11):
coping, or are we trulyaccepting the fact that this is
going to be bad and it can't begood without significant,
significant energy of change.
And then I even put I gofurther. It's like, does an
organization like that even careabout safety in the first place?
So would we even have to worryabout keeping people safe
because they may not even carebecause of that? Or maybe they
(15:33):
have that safety person who'strying their best to be that
person there to help andstruggling and having
difficulty, or an HR personwho's trying to manage the
people in trying to like, yeah,I get it.
And I still remember long timeago that it was not a good it
(15:57):
was it was a tough situation wewere in business wise, and I
remember we were having kind ofan all hands meeting at the
site, and everybody wascomplaining, complaining,
complaining. And even the plantmanager stood up and said, Look,
I'm just here until I can findsomething else too.
I think everybody's jaw, justlike the room went silent, just
(16:20):
because they're like, Oh, did hesay that? It's like, wow, we
just admitted the situationwe're in is not good. We're all
trying to get out, we're alltrying to find the change, and
we're just, we're just allhanging on together,
and in those organizations, howdo we continue? There's no
thriving, there's onlysurviving, and we have to
(16:42):
survive through first focusingon getting out of it safely.
I know that's tough, but werevert back. Let's go back to
Maslow. There's food, water andshelter. Got it through having
the job. Maybe struggle, but wegot the job. The next one is
safety. We have to feel safe,and we have to figure out a way
(17:03):
that, even despite all of what'sgoing on, that we back up and go
we cannot be detrimental tohuman life. And if it means that
someone needs to get more restto be able to do that, we try to
find ways. I know I've digresseda little bit, but this really,
this hit me hard when I readthis about, you know, how, how
effective is vacation, and howeffective is rest, and are
(17:27):
people even getting it? Becausethe study only looks at those
who are getting it, and there'sso much more to look at, to
think about, what creates thatadditional risk of just being
apathetic? I think the ultimate,the ultimate, final step of like
to me, when it gets there, isapathy. And I've always one of
(17:48):
my things is I love to seepassion in the workplace, either
good, bad, whatever you can turnif you've got energy, you can
direct energy, you can useenergy. But if it's gone, if
there is no energy to createthat energy that's really
difficult, and that's when whenapathy sets in. You have a very
difficult task of creating aworkplace that will even try to
(18:14):
focus on safety.
Thanks for joining me on thisepisode of the leading and
learning through safety podcast.
Just a reminder, coming up inAugust, there is the Kentucky
governor's safety conference inOwensboro, Kentucky, my home
state, always a pleasure, alwaysan honor to be part of of that.
I'll be speaking there aboutcreating culture and using
(18:35):
safety to create that, thatultimate culture for your team.
Always happy to be speaking inmy home state, if you're around,
it's a great conference.
I wish you the very best in thenext week and until next time we
chat, stay safe.
(19:02):
Thank you for listening to theleading and learning through
safety podcast. More content isavailable online at www dot tsda
consulting.comall the opinions expressed on
the podcast are solelyattributed to the individual and
not affiliated with any businessentity. This podcast is for
(19:24):
informational and entertainmentpurposes. It is not a substitute
for proper policy, appropriatetraining or legal advice.
YouThis has been the leading and
(19:54):
learning through safety podcast.
You.
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