January 18, 2025 • 54 mins
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Dr Marie-Hélène Pelletier, a renowned psychologist, leadership coach and author of the highly acclaimed book - The Resilience Plan - shares her groundbreaking approach to resilience in this thought-provoking episode of Leading People.
Discover how resilience can be cultivated as a skill rather than just an inherent personality trait. Marie-Hélène explains why resilience is not a trait.
We promise you'll gain valuable insights into building a personalized resilience plan to ward off burnout, especially for high achievers who often miss the early warning signs.
Marie-Hélène's journey from psychology to pioneering resilience research provides a unique backdrop for these strategies, blending psychological insights with business acumen to enhance both work performance and mental health.
Listeners will uncover common misconceptions about resilience and recognize burnout indicators that typically go unnoticed. We emphasize the importance of psychological safety in the workplace, which can nurture open conversations about mental health.
By understanding Marie-Hélène's BEAR thinking model you'll be better equipped to navigate the biases that distort our perceptions. Marie-Hélène's analogy of "don't feed the bears" serves as a memorable guide for avoiding unhelpful thoughts and embracing constructive thinking.
The discussion extends to leadership, where we explore how strategic resilience planning transforms both personal and professional life. High-performing professionals will learn to accurately assess the demands on their energy and align their tasks with personal values for more satisfying outcomes.
We also delve into the vital role leaders play in fostering a resilient organization, particularly by sharing personal strategies to build team trust and psychological safety.
Whether you're a leader or an HR decision-maker, this episode offers essential strategies for you and your team to thrive in today's high-pressure environment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me, Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others Every
other week I sit down withleading authors researchers and
practitioners for deep diveconversations about the
(00:23):
strategies, insights and toolsthat drive personal and
organizational success and inbetween.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I bring you one simple thing short episodes that
deliver practical insights andtips for immediate use.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Whether you're here for useful tools or thought
thought-provoking ideas, LeadingPeople is your guide to better
leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What does it take to build resilience in today's
high-pressure world?
Marie-hélène Pelletier,psychologist, leadership coach
and author of the ResiliencePlan, joins me on Leading People
to share her strategic approachto thriving through challenges.
In this episode, you'lldiscover, among other things,
why resilience isn't apersonality trait and how to
(01:15):
cultivate your own resilience.
The common burnout warningsigns that high achievers often
ignore, and how to create yourown personalized resilience plan
.
So get ready to gain actionableinsights and rethink what it
(01:36):
means to lead with strength andclarity.
Marie-hélène Pelletier welcometo Leading People.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Ah, Jerry Murray, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, lovely to meet you, and you're coming in from
the west coast of Canada, sothat's pretty exotic for me
anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah well, belgium sounds exotic to me, so there
you go.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
There we go.
So you published a new bookearly in 2024 and we're going to
get to that shortly, because Ithink it's a very interesting
topic.
But first, just so ourlisteners can get to know you
better, how did you get here?
Was there a person, place orevent that stands out in your
journey to where you are today,or were there any epiphany
(02:25):
moments?
And why did you choose a careerthat's sort of focused around
mental health and resilience andthat type of thing?
So tell us who you are.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yes, I got here mostly by following my nose,
following my interests andseeing where it takes me.
So for me that started withtraining as a psychologist.
Then love of mountains made memove to the West Coast of Canada
(02:56):
in a secondary way, theprograms here at the University
of British Columbia, to continuemy training.
Then because I did my doctoralstudy in telehealth at the time,
about 20 years ago.
So how can we providepsychotherapy via video
conferencing, which turns out?
Yeah, I know, at the timeinternet was not fast enough.
(03:17):
I had to use six telephonelines to transfer video and
audio data.
It was seen as pre-embryonic,not even like we're interested
in that school pioneer, aspre-embryonic, not even like
we're interested in that schoolpioneer, pre-embryonic, not
useful.
But it was a great area ofresearch for me.
But this required a lot ofresearch and leadership of
people I had to work with withvery limited funds.
(03:39):
That then made me realize I wasinterested in leadership in
management.
That then made me realize I wasinterested in leadership in
management.
So then continued my trainingin that area.
This took me in various rolesin junior, middle management,
senior leadership.
After all this in various areasstarted my own work, which is
(04:01):
now what I do mostly publicspeaking, keynotes and all
executive coaching and smallpractice as a psychologist,
mostly working withprofessionals and leaders in all
of these areas.
So that's how I got here inprobably under a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That was pretty fast to get from Quebec to British
Columbia in under a minute,Because you are French speaking,
native in that sense, in theCanadian sense.
So okay, so you've got thisblend of psychology and the MBA
stuff and the leadershipexperience and you brought all
(04:37):
that together and let's just getto the book now.
Just tell our listeners what'sit called.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes.
So the book is called theResilience Plan A Strategic
Approach to Optimizing your WorkPerformance and Mental Health.
So that's the book, and whatI'm doing at a high level in
this book is bringing what weknow from psychology and
resilience.
So what's going to actuallyincrease it?
Because sometimes in the sea ofinformation, it's hard to know.
(05:07):
And then I'm bringing tools weuse in business, in management,
specifically in strategy, tocreate that plan.
Because what I was learning,listening, hearing from everyone
I worked with was look, we'reaccomplishing so much all day.
Every day, we get to a pointwhere we need something to give
(05:29):
us an edge and we hear all thesethings that we should do.
It doesn't work.
We can't seem to find the timein our very full lives.
And what I realized in my workwith people and at some point,
people telling me, oh, I wish Iknew this sooner.
In my work with people, and atsome point, people telling me,
oh, I wish I knew this soonerwas that it was not an issue of
knowing what to do a little bit,but not mostly.
(05:50):
Mostly, it was how do weimplement it here?
And what was missing is takinginto account our individual
context, which hence brought meto being strategic.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And so you were inspired by the work you're
doing and and your clients, etc.
And just I'm curious, why now?
Why bring out the book now?
Is there any significance whyyou would bring a book out
called the resilience plan?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
in this moment right on leading people.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
the goal is to bring you cutting edge thought
leadership from many of theleading thinkers and
practitioners in leadershiptoday.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
(06:44):
link with friends, family andcolleagues, and stay informed by
joining our Leading PeopleLinkedIn community of HR leaders
and talent professionals.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Initially I was.
You know how some people knowall their lives that at some
point they will write a book.
Nope, was not on my listnecessarily.
It truly just came because ofhearing, and then the frequency
of hearing this increased.
People that I worked with or atconferences that I would give
and people saying this is sohelpful, I'm so glad I have this
(07:19):
now.
I wish I knew this sooner.
That was that comment.
I wish I knew this sooner.
And and then me realizing waita second, if I write it in a
book, someone's going to get itsooner.
So that will be a good thing,and so that's what brought that
book.
But also, in the broader context, we know we're seeing higher
burnout rates.
(07:39):
We're seeing even more demandsand changes happening around us,
if nothing else, even just AIin our professional lives, but
our personal lives as well, withthe changes it's already
brought and the others that itwill bring.
So if we think of resilience asour ability to go through
(08:01):
adversity and come out evenstronger, adversity being either
something very acute andpunctual and also things that
are more chronic, so presentover a long period of time, like
AI, for example, or like thepandemic Well then the more we
can front load, so to speak, andapproach this from a strategic
(08:23):
perspective, we'll be in a muchbetter position.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So kind of this segues into the question I was
going to ask you which is whatis resilience and what is it not
, and what are some of the mythsaround resilience that you've
probably busted in this book?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yes, love the what it is not.
That's an important, crucialpoint, because we use the word
so much.
Sometimes people even call it abuzzword.
It's not.
It actually is a technical term, but we use buzzword when we
start feeling like the word.
We don't know what it meansanymore kind of thing.
(09:01):
And in this particular case,there are actually many
definitions of resilience.
The one that most are using,the one I'm using in the book,
is what I was mentioning sooner,so I'll repeat it, just so we
can start from there.
So our ability to go throughadversity come out even stronger
.
Okay, so with this part of,what's important is that
(09:23):
sometimes we associate beingresilient with being persistent
at all costs, and no, it isn'tthat's.
Our ability to go throughadversity come out even stronger
.
So what this means is thatthere may be times when, given
the challenge that is in frontof me, I will make the decision
(09:44):
to pull out, to not take on thatparticular situation, and that,
yes, could be an absolutelyresilient thing to do.
Another key misconception thatpeople have about resilience is
we act and I say we because tosome degree, I've been like this
earlier in my career as wellthat we think it's a personality
(10:07):
trait.
We think that, look, I've gonethrough all these things, I've
managed through all thesedemanding phases, I've led large
teams through this, whateverI've done, therefore, it's who I
am, it's part of my personality.
And here's the trap because I'mthinking it's part of my
personality, inherent to me.
(10:28):
Of course I don't need to takeany action about it because
that's who I am.
And that's a trap.
It's not a personality trait,and so what it means is that it
will vary in time across ourlives, but it also means we can,
and my argument is we shouldinfluence it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Okay, and you state in the book that professionals
and leaders can find themselveson the path to burnout, anxiety
and workplace mental health,disability, absences.
So what are some of the typicalsymptoms, particularly that
high achievers tend to ignore,of the typical symptoms,
particularly that high achieverstend to ignore.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Again, really good angle here, because we all know
burnout exists, right, and ashigh-level professionals and
leaders, what we will tend tothink to ourselves is yeah, yeah
, it exists, it's out there, noone's immune to it.
But then, secretly, we'rethinking it cannot be me.
No one's immune to it.
But then, secretly, we'rethinking it cannot be me, it's
not going to be me ever.
Now I can tell you 100% of thepeople I've ever worked with who
were burnt out said I neverthought this could happen to me.
(11:34):
No one came in and said youknow, I thought it was a
candidate for that kind of thing, nope, and so part of what
happens.
So really important to realizeit can happen to anyone If
you're human, therefore you'reon the continuum.
Yes, it could.
Are there things you can do toprevent?
Yes, and are there signs?
Yes, there are.
The problem is we ignore thesesigns.
(11:57):
And so, because burnout is notsomething that sets up instantly
, it builds over time.
So if we actually listen toearly signs, we'll see it.
So first let me go to theactual definition of burnout.
So there is a definition.
It comes from the World HealthOrganization.
It is an occupational phenomenon.
(12:17):
Three main characteristics Oneis we're exhausted, one is we're
cynical, so nothing's evergoing to change.
And number three, it'simpacting our performance.
And that's important because ifwe think we can override this
and the reality, we cannot.
If you don't do this for yourhealth, think of it for the
(12:39):
brand that you've been buildingfor the past, whatever five
years, couple of decades, it'sworth paying attention to.
But here's the thing with thesethree signs before we get fully
exhausted, we were just havingless energy.
Before we got fully cynical, westarted feeling less engaged
(13:01):
and before it was impacting ourperformance, we started seeing
more things fall through thecracks.
But what happened?
As we were seeing these earliersigns and there are others,
like concentrations, not as good, we may be more impatient, for
example in our interactions, butwhat happens is we have some
(13:24):
degree of self-awareness.
We see it, but we tellourselves but it's normal, given
how busy I am.
Or we tell ourselves, itdoesn't matter, I'm just going
to put my head down and keepgoing.
Or the solution to this is tofinish whatever I need to finish
, so I'll just plow through andkeep going.
So, in effect, we ignore thesigns and so if we ignore these
(13:44):
signs.
They keep going.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And I guess there's a peer social pressure there as
well, which is not to think well, you know, I don't want to
express this to other people, somaybe we don't even talk about
it to others because we think,well, everybody's kind of
working hard or, you know, canhave a bad day, right kind of
(14:07):
working hard or, you know, canhave a bad day, right, yes, yes,
that will happen.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And if right now your environment is a bit like this,
then I would say early, ideallyfind your person.
Is this your coach?
Is this one of your peers thatyou two have a good, trusting
relationship together?
Is this a spiritual leaderthat's part of your life and,
for you, is a good person tospeak to?
Whoever you want to find thatperson If you are in a work
(14:33):
environment where you cancontribute to building a culture
of.
We hear a lot the words ofpsychological safety.
It is a valid concept.
It's what it means is can wecreate an environment where,
yeah, we can actually trulyshare with each other how we're
feeling?
We can.
When we ask someone how they'redoing, we can expect an honest,
(14:56):
actually authentic responsewhich may have, oh yeah, some
positives.
Some challenging moments,because if we do this again,
we're being more real.
Some challenging momentsBecause if we do this again,
we're being more real, whichthen allows us to deal with the
situation much better.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So if I'm just putting myself now in the shoes
of the listeners out there, somepeople might be already going.
Oh, I'm experiencing some ofthis and, at the same time, like
going back to what you saidearlier on a lot of people are
aware of what you know dobecause you can get, are aware
of what you know do because youcan get this stuff in book.
You get this stuff out there.
It's out there, you know.
(15:29):
Here's some of the things youshould do, but I think what
you've really focused in on andthis is what I wanted to get to
here is you advocate foreveryone to have their own
personal strategic resilienceplan.
So what is a strategicresilience plan and why is it so
important?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yes.
So I'll tell you how an analogythat came out of my mouth one
day when working with someonewho was asking me literally a
question fairly similar to this,and I said well, so, and your
listeners some of them may be ina business setting, but even if
we're not, you'll understandthe situation.
(16:10):
If we're in an organization andwe now have a new idea for a
new product or a new service,are we going to say, okay, I've
got this great idea, let'slaunch it.
Or are we going to say idea,let's launch it.
Or are we going to say I havethis great idea, all right,
let's look at who else isselling this exact same thing.
(16:31):
How much are they selling itfor?
Who's buying it?
Which forces in the near or farfuture may impact the demand
for it?
We would do all this right.
In effect, we're looking at thecontext for this launch, and
that will lead to a strategicplan and a more successful
launch, which is great.
So here for our resilience, weactually need to do the same
(16:53):
thing.
If all we do is say, yeah, weknow the things and we just say
I should do the things, we don'tdo the things, and it doesn't
work If, instead, we say, allright, we know some of the key
things that would have an impacton our resilience.
I can cover them in a second ifwe want, and I'm going to
actually look at and that's whatI bring people through in the
(17:14):
book.
It's a concise book.
If you're flying for four hours, you can get through it and get
your plan when you get out.
So it's very doable.
And we'll share some worksheetsas well which can be used even
without the book.
You can use them without orwith the book.
But I bring people through areflection on okay, let's step
back.
What are your values?
Let's start with this.
This is what's going to makeyour plan unique to you.
(17:36):
I also bring people through anexercise of realistically
looking at your sources ofdemand, which we tend to
underestimate, and your actualsources of supply of energy,
which we tend to overestimate.
We can talk about that too.
Third piece is I bring peoplethrough the equivalent of a SWOT
(17:58):
analysis, right, when, inbusiness, we would look at what
are the internal sources ofstrengths and weaknesses to this
particular project, theexternal opportunities and
threats.
So we can do this for ourselvesin our context, and then we can
write a plan.
So see, this is the differencebetween someone saying, oh yeah,
(18:19):
I should exercise five times aweek and well, I'm not To okay,
I value health.
In my current context, I'm notinvesting any time on this value
.
I'm working all the time and Ithought I would go for a walk
once in a while.
I'm not.
My context means that I cannotactually go for walks.
(18:39):
I live in a place where it'snot easy for me to get out of
the door or whatever.
So then the plan might have apillar that will be called
health.
That may have an action that issimply to focus on deep
breathing five times each time Iwash my hands.
So now I've not added more timeto my day.
(19:03):
It's not requiring anythingthat right now is not possible
or harder, but I've got anaction that I can implement and
that we know from research willlead to positive outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I teach some stuff like this myself, a little
bit related to habit stacking.
So you know you want to build anew habit stack.
Add it on to something you'realready just doing habitually.
It often is easier just to slotit in and before you know it it
becomes an extension of whatyou're already doing.
That's a little bit what I'mhearing there.
(19:36):
Um, fantastic, fantastic, uh,technique and and um always goes
down incredibly well withaudiences because they go huh,
huh, I can do that.
You know, it's one of thesethings like I've.
There was a great Britishmedical doctor TV doctor who
unfortunately passed away in2024, but he wrote a great book
(19:58):
called Just One Thing, michaelMosley, and so it's full of all
these little tips.
But one of the fascinatingthings I do is stand on one leg
whilst you're brushing yourteeth.
So one leg for the top row, oneleg for the bottom row, and it
strengthens your core.
It's giving you some exercise.
So there's lots of little thingsyou can do, but I wanted to get
to some of the things you justmentioned.
(20:20):
They're on my list to get to ina minute or so, but before we
get to digging deeper intosupply and demand and values and
and context and things.
Um, I want you to just talk alittle bit about the
intersection of thoughts, moods,physical reactions and
behaviors, because for me thisis a real leverage point, and so
(20:42):
maybe you can elaborate onthoughts, moods, physical
reactions and behaviors and theinterplay between those four
factors.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
This is a great question, and it is, in fact, a
chapter in the book where I talkabout cognitive behavior
therapy and theory, andbasically at a very high level.
One of the things that'scritical for us to keep in mind
is that as humans, yes, we havethoughts, feelings, behaviors.
They are related, of course,and most of the time it works,
(21:15):
thankfully.
However, there are times whenour thinking is actually not
going to be so helpful.
It will perhaps be more on thenegative side, more negative
than it needs to be, and often,when that's the case, it's our
thinking that will just become abit.
We call this biased, and a veryobvious one that we can notice
(21:40):
more easily.
Most of us is the all ornothing thinking.
This is never gonna work.
There's no way I can go throughthis change.
I'm always failing.
You know those sort of extremeall or nothing, but there are
many others as well, and wecould talk about this for a long
time, but, in a nutshell, themain direction with this is to
(22:00):
be aware of our self-talk and tonot necessarily take it as fact
.
So being efficientprofessionals and leaders a lot
of the time, the way we think is, in fact, very helpful.
We want to take action based onit and it works.
But it's not because most ofthe time it's like this that all
(22:22):
of the time it's like this.
So it's about keeping in mindthat sometimes the thinking is
not going to be helpful and wemay want to put it aside and
consider a different approachinstead.
For example, a lot of highlyperforming individuals will have
a bit of an anxious side tothemselves, like you'll be
(22:44):
outside and you'll somehow catchyour brain wanting you to not
walk on the cracks on thesidewalk or something like this
or other ways.
So if we start buying into this, then it becomes a bigger deal.
If we just say, oh yeah, thisis me sometimes being a bit more
anxious deal, if we just say,oh yeah, this is me sometimes
being a bit more anxious, youcan let it go and move on to the
next thing.
So it's a small example.
(23:04):
And if it gets harder, ofcourse that's when we want to
work with, say, a psychologist,for example.
But the point is the way wethink influences how we feel,
how we behave all of our self,our experience, and so paying
attention to how we think isworth it, keeping in mind
sometimes it's not going to behelpful and then bringing it
(23:25):
back to just more realisticthinking.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You mentioned a concept.
I guess it's a model you'vedeveloped yourself.
You call it bear thinking.
Is this just because you're outin the wild all the time I know
you like to be out in natureand you've just thought, okay,
those guys will be good for amodel, or was it?
Is it what is bear thinking?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
oh, the way I came to this, um so.
So, like I said, there are manyways in which we can bias our
own thinking and there are.
Seriously, it's as ifresearchers have loved finding
all the ways and we probablyhave a hundred categories.
Right, we could bepersonalizing things, we could
be catastrophizing, minimizing,maximizing.
(24:08):
You know, there's a number ofthem and part of what I'm saying
is we don't want to feed thisthinking.
Now, yes, I happen to be someonewho's often in the wilderness
with both black bears andgrizzly bears, which I tried to
stay away from.
But one of the key things I raninto once on a campground was
(24:28):
this sign that said you know,don't feed the bears, which, of
course, no, you don't want tofeed the bears, any bears.
But then I thought, well,that's a very interesting,
because that's exactly the samething we don't want to do with
unhelpful thoughts.
And then I thought, well,that's a very interesting,
because that's exactly the samething we don't want to do with
unhelpful thoughts.
And then I figured wait, asecond BEAR.
That could be an acronym forsort of black and white thinking
, b or R or nothing that I wasmentioning earlier, and then E
(24:53):
could be emotional reasoning.
So when we start thinking, oh,I feel incompetent, so I am, for
example, that's just unhelpful,not true?
Right A was for anchoring.
Sometimes that tendency to it'salways been like this, so it's
going to be like this again.
Not necessarily the case.
And R?
Wait a second, I'm having ablank.
(25:14):
I've had a blank on that letteronce before.
Do you have it in front of youby chance?
Not directly in front of me, butwe could we could brainstorm it
like reactive or whatever it isReading people's mind.
It came back Reading people'smind.
There you go.
Otherwise I would have had tosay, oh, you're going to have to
buy the book to find out, butno, no, you read you read my
(25:34):
mind or I read your mind.
Oh, who knows?
But but that's another bias,right?
Um, that can you know.
We can start thinking oh my god, everyone in the room is
thinking that I'm incompetent,for example.
Therefore, I am again.
No, we cannot read people'smind.
Not helpful, stay with yourgame and keep carry on.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So yeah, that's how the bear analogy came so, so so
they the the term that youborrowed for economics around
supply and demand.
Could you maybe unpack that alittle bit with some examples
for our listeners?
You know this idea because youtalk about in the book and you
you really talk about.
I think you use that kind ofprinciple of supply and demand
(26:16):
from economics to try andillustrate it.
So unpack it for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yes, and I'm using it differently for how we mean it
in economics.
So, but here, but it is theterms that often were used to
using, so it was a bit of a wayto catch people's attention.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry
Murray, and my guest this weekis author and resilience expert,
marie-hélène Pauletier.
In the next part of ourconversation, marie-hélène dives
deep into her strategicresilience plan, explains why
values matter and how leaderscan build resilience in their
(27:03):
teams and organizations.
So stay tuned to explore thesepowerful tools to help you
thrive.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I have to say it turns out this particular
worksheet I mentioned.
We will have the link forpeople, but this particular
worksheet is the one that mostpeople have gotten back to me
saying this was the biggestshift in their approach in
feeding their own strategicresilience plan.
(27:34):
So one pager, two columns,demands on one side, supply on
the other.
And in this here I'm justsaying part of what happens to
very perform, highly performingprofessionals and leaders is
that we will tend to minimizethe demands we're facing.
So I'll ask so you know.
(27:55):
So, list your the demands youhave in your life.
People will usually list two orthree things at work that they
would rather not have, that aresort of irritating.
That's it.
They'll stop there.
Then I'll say, okay, well, wedon't just have a professional
life, we have a personal life,so let's list a few there.
So they'll list a couple ofthings, same thing, that they
(28:17):
would rather not have, and thenI'll say, well, okay, now let's
list even more.
And as they start payingattention they realize, oh yeah,
well, I'm also, you know,filling in for this colleague
who needs to be away, and thenthey'll realize there are
positive demands.
I also got this new, really bigclient that I've been hoping to
(28:38):
work with for a long time.
But oh, now that means morepressure on me too, or on the
personal side.
Very happy, we're just movingto this new place, but it's a
move, and a move is demanding.
So you see, just talking aboutit for one more minute makes us
realize no, it's not two orthree things, it's 15.
Okay, let's have a morerealistic look there.
(28:59):
And same thing on the supplyside.
So what brings you energy?
Then I'll say to people, okay,what do you have there?
And then they'll say, oh, yeah,I like to go for a walk three
times a week with my partnerafter dinner.
Great, how many times did yougo in the past two weeks?
And then they'll say, uh, well,in the past couple of months
I've been very busy.
So, no, it did not happen there.
(29:21):
Well, okay, it doesn't go onthe list then.
And then they realize there'snot much on the list.
And so that's moving us fromwhat I call an optimistic bias
oh I don't have that manydemands, oh I have lots of
supply to a more realisticperspective.
Because without that realisticperspective again we think we
(29:43):
don't need to take any action onour resilience.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Not true, and, of course, the another byproduct of
having lots of demands is when,when things don't get closed or
finished off, it's like havinga bucket with holes in it.
This energy is just leaking outbecause all these things are
running in the background thatyou haven't actually finished
off and and and.
Then, as you say, if the supplyisn't there because a lot of
(30:09):
it's downtime, how much energydo we have to actually do the
things?
And reminding ourselves thatthey need to be done has also
got negative impacts on us,because we just keep going oh,
oh, my God, I'm never going toget to that.
So what do people do with theirsupply and demand inventory
then, when you've done it withthem?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yes, Well, it's one of the pieces of information we
need to inform the strategicplan.
So one of the ways it becomeshelpful is even that example.
You know that example we werejust talking about.
Okay, so let's say we we nowjust did this realize we have a
list of 15 demands and not muchon the supply side.
Okay, and we've also done, say,our review of our values,
(30:51):
what's most important for me inlife?
Let's say relationship, health,um, power, finances, whatever
is on your list here.
So you start seeing thedisconnect between, okay, I've
got these values and really allI'm doing is working, or getting
things done.
Okay, and then we're going tolook at your context, that SWOT
(31:12):
analysis.
But then it may lead to someonedeciding on their strategic
plan, Maybe pillar number one.
I often recommend three pillarsso that it's manageable.
Maybe one pillar for thisperson will be prioritize, where
I put my energy.
And so now and I've had oneperson I worked with who was
(31:32):
reflecting on exactly that shesaid she went from having an
endless list of things to do andconstantly feeling dissatisfied
with it because it's endless,to having a clear list of the
few things she has to do andthat's it.
Immensely more focused,satisfying and time to do the
other things she wanted to getto that were aligned with her
(31:55):
values.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, I've tried out quite a few of these um
approaches, and less iscertainly more um, because, in
getting back to the values, oneof the nicest things I ever came
across was, in order to be ableto say no to something or
somebody, you need to be able tosay yes to yourself, and that
(32:17):
means knowing what you'reimportant to you and then saying
, okay, I'm just going to haveto say no to those things
because they don't fit withwhat's important to me now.
And when you get the contextagain, what's important to me to
now and maybe for three, sixmonths, that might change
because some other things maybecome more important later on.
(32:39):
But if you're not aware ofthese things, you don't know how
to shift.
Isn't that right?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Exactly, and you see the parallel with exactly what,
the way in which a strategicplan is so helpful in business.
Same thing right, as a business, quite potentially you could
offer additional services,additional products, all kinds
of other things.
You've got the resources,potentially, but you've decided
(33:03):
where you're going, based on thevalues of this organization,
where you're going to play youroverall context, and that's
exactly what a strategy does.
Here as well.
In a business, a newopportunity comes.
We carry it through the lens ofour strategic plan and if it
fits, it fits.
Maybe the strategic plan needsto evolve.
(33:24):
That's also an option, butwe're not just jumping on it
because it's there.
So same thing here having thatclarity which sometimes people
think, oh, it's going to take me10 hours to get there.
No, it will not.
You could just use theworksheets, not even get the
book, and that will still putyou in that position, but it
puts so much more power.
People say they feel groundedand they have clarity, and who
(33:49):
doesn't love that?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
right, there's lots of people out there going where
can I get these worksheets?
But we'll get there.
We're going to get to that part, so just be patient, because
strategy requires patienceanyway.
So just we'll get there.
Okay, and you make thisimportant link in the book
between strategy and actions asa plan in constant evolution.
What do you mean by?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
that Same as in business.
So in business, here, we willcreate a strategy in this moment
in time that will have aduration.
Right, it will be valid.
Sometimes it's for two months,sometimes six months, sometimes
a year, and sometimes, whateverduration we thought it would be,
we may decide that it needs tobe revised sooner because the
(34:34):
context has changed.
And so same thing here for ourresilience plan.
Say me, for example, when I knewthat my book was going to
launch three months down theroad, so the last, you know, the
three months prior to thelaunching of the book, then I
thought, oh wait, a second,using my own medicine, my own
(34:55):
book.
That means my context is goingto change when that happens.
So how do I plan for this?
And there were various pillarsin my strategy, but one of them
was that I was not going toapproach the various demands in
a similar way.
I was going to protect moretime, even though I didn't know
exactly what was going to happen.
I knew it was going to be moredemanding.
(35:17):
Everyone was telling me I feltlike not listening, but I did,
thankfully.
And so that's what I did.
And I'm so thankful I didbecause now, and having not gone
through this experience.
Before, all I could do waslisten to other people.
Creating a strategy for thatperiod that was going to be very
(35:38):
unique allowed me to be in thatphase do all the things, but
also, which I learned after,actually enjoy it, as opposed to
doing all the things andrunning after all the other
things I'm trying to alsoaccomplish, because I made no
change, because I kept the sameplan.
No, the plan evolved becausethe context was changing, and
(35:59):
that's the point of the book.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Are you familiar with a concept called all meaning?
Is context dependent?
Yeah, right exactly because Ithink sometimes people miss that
if the context starts changinga lot of what you, whatever
something meant, let's say, acouple of weeks ago, it may not
(36:21):
mean the same thing, because thecontext has changed again and
we often have to see things inthe context to know what to do.
And actually ignoring contextis something you do at your
peril, because I know, but we dothat all the time.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
People will make assumptions about oh yeah, I can
do this, I can do that.
This is going to take me twohours, one hour.
This is based on old data.
This is you 10 years ago.
This is you last time you didthis.
Your context is different.
I mean, our brain is differentalso as we age and time keeps
going.
So, yeah, know the context.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
So how does technology affect our ability to
be resilient, and couldtechnologies actually help us
treat in inverted commas ourburnout, anxiety and other
mental health tendencies?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Well, technology is a broad term, and at this point I
mean there's a broad term andat this point I mean there's
advantages, disadvantages,no-transcript.
If I go high level in answeringyour question, I would say
consider technology, so overallAI, machine learning, all of
(37:38):
these consider this as more as asource of demand.
Now, keep in mind, demands canbe negative, can be also
positive, but for us right now,technology is still a change
from not having it to having it.
So therefore, I would say,first and foremost, let's
(37:59):
consider it the demand that itis, because then, if we do, in
effect, we're looking at thecontext in a more realistic way
and we'll build our resiliencemore proactively.
If we go in the more granularand there are some for some
people there will be advantagesof having more information, for
(38:19):
example, from what your wrist istelling you in the morning
about how well you slept, forexample, things like that.
And then for many right now,there's also the possibly even
bigger challenge of taking abreak for your phone from your
phone right, and so, overall,just that's a, that's
considerate the demand mostlythat we want to proactively
(38:41):
build resilience for, so that wecan navigate it as best as we
can as as a human partner right.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
So it comes back again to your worksheets, and,
and, and you know technologydoesn't sit as a separate thing.
It's part of our lives, so it's, it's factored into looking at
supply, demand values, contextand yeah yes, yes, yes, and it
for some people.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right now it feels like it's already there.
For most people, we know it'saround, and then for some others
it's very, very present.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
So back to the leading people theme and I have
one kind of big last questionhere.
You say the individual, teamand organization resilience are
all related.
Could you maybe provide someexamples for our listeners of
how this plays out and reallythe impact that leaders have on
(39:37):
the relationship between thesefactors?
So the individual, the team andthe organization.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Leaders have a large impact and sometimes the best
leaders have this humble side tothem that makes them think that
they are as no more or lessimportant than anybody else, and
that is true.
At the same time, if you are ina leadership role I mean, I
(40:07):
would even say anyone whetherwe're in a leadership role or
not are influencing the team.
We're in, the organizationwe're in.
That being said, if we are in aleadership role, we are having
more of an impact.
If nothing else, just becauseyou have this role, more people
are looking at how you'rehandling things, what you're
(40:27):
saying, what you're noticing ispositive or challenging.
So it is an importantresponsibility, it's a fabulous
opportunity and, even if we arein our humble self in a number
of ways, it's much better torecognize this than to pretend
it's not there and thereforewe're actually going to miss
(40:51):
opportunities.
So I would say important role.
Now, yes, workplace is a system.
There's the individual, theteam, the organization.
At a broader level, there isthe country we're in the moment
in time it is.
You know, it is a verycontextualized, again, concept,
but in a workplace, this isextremely important because what
(41:11):
it means is that, whether we'retalking about burnout,
psychological safety, resilienceas individuals, teams or
organizations.
It is within that system.
It is a shared responsibility,shared opportunity, shared
responsibility as well.
(41:34):
So, for example, if you're aleader and you're saying, okay,
how can I contribute to myteam's resilience, for example,
maybe and it brings us back toour earlier part of this
conversation where you weresaying, well, what if I don't
feel comfortable sharing withothers that I'm struggling?
For example, be that leader,start, for example, start small.
Instead of if someone asks youhow your weekend was and you
(41:55):
went for a great walk or hike ora bike ride, whatever, instead
of just saying you know, goodweekend went for my bike ride,
how about you say great weekendwent for my bike ride,
especially important for me,given how busy we're going to be
this week, how demanding thecurrent pressures are.
(42:16):
See, it's not a big addition.
You didn't put your heart onthe table in a massive way, but
what you did do is share a bitmore of you personally, of how,
yeah, you're protecting yourresilience, how we can talk
about resilience here, and theseare the kinds of comments,
responses, that start buildingeven more of that trust, that
(42:40):
psychological safety whichallows us to have conversations,
including those aboutresilience, yeah because there's
so much out there today aboutthe manager and the leader.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Um, and you know it's all about leadership and it's
all about you know.
Obviously we talk aboutcontagion, you know, and role
modeling.
You know, if leaders don't rolemodel and their behaviors and
uh, moods and that can becontagious and affect other
people.
And yet there's so much.
I mean managers are soessential to an organization,
(43:14):
whether you call them managersor leaders, depending on where
they may be, what the type ofroles they have, they're so
essential to an organizationbecause people still look to
others for guidance, to maybe Idon't know set direction.
And yet a lot of the statisticsare showing that the poor
managers are suffering more thananybody else out there.
You know, we're always saying,well, the manager is not
(43:36):
engaging their people, but oftenthose people feel they're not
being engaged by maybe somebodyelse or some other managers and
I've seen rates of up to 60percent of managers feeling
close to burnout.
I mean Gallup's doing researchon this.
Mckinsey's written a book aboutthe importance recently of
middle managers and how they'reso vital.
And what would you say to thatperson out there now listening
(44:01):
who says, well, it's all verywell, everybody's saying the
manager the manager, or theleader the leader.
But I'm suffering, I'm theperson who's having to, I'm
getting.
You know.
They often say middle managers,they're getting squeezed,
they're like in the middle of asandwich.
The people underneath them arepushing at them, the people
(44:21):
above them are pushing at them.
Maybe this is a way of comingto the end of this particular
conversation.
I mean, I would normally lookfor maybe a couple of insights
that you would share with ouraudience.
Maybe you could at least shareone insight with managers who
may feel totally beaten up andthat's not going to help them be
resilient, I think, if theyfeel they've got nowhere to go.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
So yeah, it is a very challenging role which for many
years was considered oh, it's aeasier role, it's a role, it's
a well-paid role, whatever rightTo tough it out or you don't
need any support, that kind ofthing.
Seriously, even in the academicliterature, it's only in the
recent years that we've startedseeing information about the
(45:02):
challenges of leaders, forexample, specifically when there
is massive layoff, for example.
It's actually not that easy.
So, and being in this positionof lower management type role is
the toughest.
I have been in it.
I know exactly what you'redescribing.
The pressure is coming from bothsides.
You're protecting your team andyou're trying to just receive
(45:26):
whatever you're receiving fromyour upper management Get
support, get support.
Do not keep this just in youEven.
Don't keep it also just inbuilding your own plan on your
own.
Your pillars here, yourstrategic pillars, yes, might
(45:48):
involve things that will buildyour own resilience individually
, like your exercise, nutrition,sleep, all these things, yes,
and you've got to have in yourother pillars your relationships
with others and possiblygetting professional support.
So, and literally, I would makeit a pillar because if it may
(46:09):
mean seeing if you can engagefurther your own leader here in
the organization Sometimespossible, sometimes not, but
it's worth a shot.
Sometimes it's gatheringadditional professional
development support in the formof a coach, in the form of other
training.
Get out.
The tendency will be to retreatin, to think it's something in
(46:31):
you that you need to fix or doon your own, or that there is
something wrong with you.
And no, no, no.
You want to get out and getthose resources, for two reasons
.
One, get additional support inmaking it potentially, or having
additional reflection on isthis the right place for me to
be right now?
(46:52):
Maybe this is this role, butsomewhere else.
Maybe it's a different role.
Maybe it's this roledifferently, but if it's not
going in the good directions,change something sooner rather
than later.
It's not going to get better.
The trend is there, so you wantto do something to change that
trend.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Right.
So that's just listening tothat.
I think that's precious advice.
I'm just going to ask you forone more little contribution to
that thought process.
Many of our listeners areworking in HR and you know the
challenge with coaching is, as afriend of mine, who went
through a very tough time andbecame a real example of
(47:33):
resilience, once said to me.
She said the problem withcoaching is you only actually
know that it's very valuablewhen you've gone through it.
But then you have to beprepared to either pay for it or
go through it to find out howuseful and valuable it is.
So in an organizational contextbecause I know when I worked in
a big organization I didn'tspend any money on my own
(47:53):
personal development.
I expected the organization.
It was like well, I'm here, youknow, you guys send me on
trainings, but only when I leftI began to invest in my own
stuff and go to courses, lookingat the stats, looking at people
, maybe having people come tothem.
Maybe HR sometimes is thatfirst confidant that a person
(48:17):
can have.
What would you say to them interms of you know, from your
research and your experience andwriting this book, what would
you say they could do maybe tohelp people in their
organizations who might bestruggling.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
It's a great question because it makes me think of
two aspects to this.
Number one, I would say you, asHR person, do all these things
for you, because the HR role isa challenging one too.
Right, because you get peoplefrom the organization coming to
you, sometimes thinking they canbe that confident person and
(48:52):
there are between the employeesand their responsibilities to
the organization as well, right.
So it's a challenging role tonavigate with authenticity and
it's fairly demanding.
So I'd say, make sure you doyour own thing here In terms of
sharing with others.
I would say take a step back tolook at your own, the
(49:15):
organization's, mental healthstrategy.
So I'm calling it that becausemore and more organizations have
a mental health strategy, somedo not.
Yet They'll have more of ahealth strategy general, which
potentially traditionally willbe more physical health focused.
But maybe what we need to do ifwe're hearing see, we are on HR
(49:37):
we're hearing more and morepeople bringing up these
challenges let's step back andthink about is it time to evolve
our health strategy?
Do we need a specific mentalhealth strategy?
Because then, if you do that,the reality is that if trying to
just support the individualshere in a bit of a granular way
(49:59):
is something.
However, we're dealing with anorganization, so we need to
think about it in that broadersense, and having that mental
health strategy here for theorganization will be good.
It will involve looking at thekinds of resources you have
right now, the kinds of whatevermetrics you have about the
engagement, overall mentalhealth of your employee
(50:21):
population and what otherresources perhaps we need right,
and so then you're able tosupport this.
This, I mean some of thatbelongs to the individuals
themselves, but as anorganization, yeah, I mean some
of that belongs to theindividuals themselves, but as
an organization, yeah, sometimesthat's where you're going to be
able to map out the ways youcan support the overall employee
population in a way that makessense to them, given what you're
(50:43):
hearing.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
Those are great insights and thank you for
sharing.
So what's next for you?
Speaker 3 (50:52):
and thank you for sharing.
So what's next for you?
Ah well, there's still a lot ofconversations to be had about
the book, the Resilience Plan.
The book is getting translatedin German next year and
hopefully many other languages,continuing to, of course, do
talks on anything and manydifferent aspects related to
resilience, like AI andresilience, for example, and
(51:13):
then building online courses aswell.
So lots to do.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So it sounds like you're going to be very busy.
So how do people get in touchwith you?
And let's get to some of thisspecial offer that we talked
about earlier.
But first, how do people get incontact with you, and then what
?
You have an offer for people,our listeners out there, if they
want to take advantage of it.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you for asking.
So LinkedIn is one of theplaces.
I'm in other places as well,but that's the one where I'm
most active.
So find me on LinkedIn, connectthere so we can see each
other's comments.
I always love that.
Otherwise comments, I alwayslove that.
Um, otherwise, the resilienceplancom will bring you to
(51:57):
everything that I do the book,the worksheets, a book free
first chapter if you you'reinterested in doing this.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
It brings you to everything I do yeah, and so I
will put some links in the shownotes and I would encourage
everybody to check out the book.
It's available at all goodbookstores, amazon, etc.
So, as ever, thanks,marie-hélène, for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withme and my listeners here today.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
Oh, it was an absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Gerry.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
But then, of course, the question is and that brings
us to the second part how do youdefine a strong culture?
How do you define a great placeto work?
And the good thing there isthat it's really a very rigid
methodology.
It has been developed overthose 40 years, but over those
(52:59):
40 years and it's kind ofnormative model, you could say,
where we believe that there's afew important elements that
define a great place to work,and one of them is the high
trust leadership.
You already mentioned theimportance of leadership.
I can go a little bit deeperinto what it really means, into
what it really means, but onepart is high trust leadership,
which is how do employeesappreciate the connection
between them and theirleadership and management in the
organization?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Next time, on Leading People, we're joined by Koen
Duetink, ceo of Great Place toWork Belgium and Professor of
Human Resources at VlericBusiness School.
Kuhn reveals what truly makesan organisation a great place to
work and why listening toemployees' voices is at the
(53:43):
heart of it all.
Discover how evidence-basedculture management can transform
workplaces and createenvironments where people thrive
.
This insightful conversation ispacked with useful advice about
how you can create and lead agreat place to work.
You won't want to miss it.
(54:04):
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you, a quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
Welcome to Leading People with me, Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others Every
other week I sit down withleading authors researchers and
practitioners for deep diveconversations about the
(00:23):
strategies, insights and toolsthat drive personal and
organizational success and inbetween.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I bring you one simple thing short episodes that
deliver practical insights andtips for immediate use.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Whether you're here for useful tools or thought
thought-provoking ideas, LeadingPeople is your guide to better
leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What does it take to build resilience in today's
high-pressure world?
Marie-hélène Pelletier,psychologist, leadership coach
and author of the ResiliencePlan, joins me on Leading People
to share her strategic approachto thriving through challenges.
In this episode, you'lldiscover, among other things,
why resilience isn't apersonality trait and how to
(01:15):
cultivate your own resilience.
The common burnout warningsigns that high achievers often
ignore, and how to create yourown personalized resilience plan
.
So get ready to gain actionableinsights and rethink what it
(01:36):
means to lead with strength andclarity.
Marie-hélène Pelletier welcometo Leading People.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Ah, Jerry Murray, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, lovely to meet you, and you're coming in from
the west coast of Canada, sothat's pretty exotic for me
anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah well, belgium sounds exotic to me, so there
you go.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
There we go.
So you published a new bookearly in 2024 and we're going to
get to that shortly, because Ithink it's a very interesting
topic.
But first, just so ourlisteners can get to know you
better, how did you get here?
Was there a person, place orevent that stands out in your
journey to where you are today,or were there any epiphany
(02:25):
moments?
And why did you choose a careerthat's sort of focused around
mental health and resilience andthat type of thing?
So tell us who you are.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yes, I got here mostly by following my nose,
following my interests andseeing where it takes me.
So for me that started withtraining as a psychologist.
Then love of mountains made memove to the West Coast of Canada
(02:56):
in a secondary way, theprograms here at the University
of British Columbia, to continuemy training.
Then because I did my doctoralstudy in telehealth at the time,
about 20 years ago.
So how can we providepsychotherapy via video
conferencing, which turns out?
Yeah, I know, at the timeinternet was not fast enough.
(03:17):
I had to use six telephonelines to transfer video and
audio data.
It was seen as pre-embryonic,not even like we're interested
in that school pioneer, aspre-embryonic, not even like
we're interested in that schoolpioneer, pre-embryonic, not
useful.
But it was a great area ofresearch for me.
But this required a lot ofresearch and leadership of
people I had to work with withvery limited funds.
(03:39):
That then made me realize I wasinterested in leadership in
management.
That then made me realize I wasinterested in leadership in
management.
So then continued my trainingin that area.
This took me in various rolesin junior, middle management,
senior leadership.
After all this in various areasstarted my own work, which is
(04:01):
now what I do mostly publicspeaking, keynotes and all
executive coaching and smallpractice as a psychologist,
mostly working withprofessionals and leaders in all
of these areas.
So that's how I got here inprobably under a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That was pretty fast to get from Quebec to British
Columbia in under a minute,Because you are French speaking,
native in that sense, in theCanadian sense.
So okay, so you've got thisblend of psychology and the MBA
stuff and the leadershipexperience and you brought all
(04:37):
that together and let's just getto the book now.
Just tell our listeners what'sit called.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes.
So the book is called theResilience Plan A Strategic
Approach to Optimizing your WorkPerformance and Mental Health.
So that's the book, and whatI'm doing at a high level in
this book is bringing what weknow from psychology and
resilience.
So what's going to actuallyincrease it?
Because sometimes in the sea ofinformation, it's hard to know.
(05:07):
And then I'm bringing tools weuse in business, in management,
specifically in strategy, tocreate that plan.
Because what I was learning,listening, hearing from everyone
I worked with was look, we'reaccomplishing so much all day.
Every day, we get to a pointwhere we need something to give
(05:29):
us an edge and we hear all thesethings that we should do.
It doesn't work.
We can't seem to find the timein our very full lives.
And what I realized in my workwith people and at some point,
people telling me, oh, I wish Iknew this sooner.
In my work with people, and atsome point, people telling me,
oh, I wish I knew this soonerwas that it was not an issue of
knowing what to do a little bit,but not mostly.
(05:50):
Mostly, it was how do weimplement it here?
And what was missing is takinginto account our individual
context, which hence brought meto being strategic.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And so you were inspired by the work you're
doing and and your clients, etc.
And just I'm curious, why now?
Why bring out the book now?
Is there any significance whyyou would bring a book out
called the resilience plan?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
in this moment right on leading people.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
the goal is to bring you cutting edge thought
leadership from many of theleading thinkers and
practitioners in leadershiptoday.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
(06:44):
link with friends, family andcolleagues, and stay informed by
joining our Leading PeopleLinkedIn community of HR leaders
and talent professionals.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Initially I was.
You know how some people knowall their lives that at some
point they will write a book.
Nope, was not on my listnecessarily.
It truly just came because ofhearing, and then the frequency
of hearing this increased.
People that I worked with or atconferences that I would give
and people saying this is sohelpful, I'm so glad I have this
(07:19):
now.
I wish I knew this sooner.
That was that comment.
I wish I knew this sooner.
And and then me realizing waita second, if I write it in a
book, someone's going to get itsooner.
So that will be a good thing,and so that's what brought that
book.
But also, in the broader context, we know we're seeing higher
burnout rates.
(07:39):
We're seeing even more demandsand changes happening around us,
if nothing else, even just AIin our professional lives, but
our personal lives as well, withthe changes it's already
brought and the others that itwill bring.
So if we think of resilience asour ability to go through
(08:01):
adversity and come out evenstronger, adversity being either
something very acute andpunctual and also things that
are more chronic, so presentover a long period of time, like
AI, for example, or like thepandemic Well then the more we
can front load, so to speak, andapproach this from a strategic
(08:23):
perspective, we'll be in a muchbetter position.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So kind of this segues into the question I was
going to ask you which is whatis resilience and what is it not
, and what are some of the mythsaround resilience that you've
probably busted in this book?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yes, love the what it is not.
That's an important, crucialpoint, because we use the word
so much.
Sometimes people even call it abuzzword.
It's not.
It actually is a technical term, but we use buzzword when we
start feeling like the word.
We don't know what it meansanymore kind of thing.
(09:01):
And in this particular case,there are actually many
definitions of resilience.
The one that most are using,the one I'm using in the book,
is what I was mentioning sooner,so I'll repeat it, just so we
can start from there.
So our ability to go throughadversity come out even stronger
.
Okay, so with this part of,what's important is that
(09:23):
sometimes we associate beingresilient with being persistent
at all costs, and no, it isn'tthat's.
Our ability to go throughadversity come out even stronger
.
So what this means is thatthere may be times when, given
the challenge that is in frontof me, I will make the decision
(09:44):
to pull out, to not take on thatparticular situation, and that,
yes, could be an absolutelyresilient thing to do.
Another key misconception thatpeople have about resilience is
we act and I say we because tosome degree, I've been like this
earlier in my career as wellthat we think it's a personality
(10:07):
trait.
We think that, look, I've gonethrough all these things, I've
managed through all thesedemanding phases, I've led large
teams through this, whateverI've done, therefore, it's who I
am, it's part of my personality.
And here's the trap because I'mthinking it's part of my
personality, inherent to me.
(10:28):
Of course I don't need to takeany action about it because
that's who I am.
And that's a trap.
It's not a personality trait,and so what it means is that it
will vary in time across ourlives, but it also means we can,
and my argument is we shouldinfluence it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Okay, and you state in the book that professionals
and leaders can find themselveson the path to burnout, anxiety
and workplace mental health,disability, absences.
So what are some of the typicalsymptoms, particularly that
high achievers tend to ignore,of the typical symptoms,
particularly that high achieverstend to ignore.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Again, really good angle here, because we all know
burnout exists, right, and ashigh-level professionals and
leaders, what we will tend tothink to ourselves is yeah, yeah
, it exists, it's out there, noone's immune to it.
But then, secretly, we'rethinking it cannot be me.
No one's immune to it.
But then, secretly, we'rethinking it cannot be me, it's
not going to be me ever.
Now I can tell you 100% of thepeople I've ever worked with who
were burnt out said I neverthought this could happen to me.
(11:34):
No one came in and said youknow, I thought it was a
candidate for that kind of thing, nope, and so part of what
happens.
So really important to realizeit can happen to anyone If
you're human, therefore you'reon the continuum.
Yes, it could.
Are there things you can do toprevent?
Yes, and are there signs?
Yes, there are.
The problem is we ignore thesesigns.
(11:57):
And so, because burnout is notsomething that sets up instantly
, it builds over time.
So if we actually listen toearly signs, we'll see it.
So first let me go to theactual definition of burnout.
So there is a definition.
It comes from the World HealthOrganization.
It is an occupational phenomenon.
(12:17):
Three main characteristics Oneis we're exhausted, one is we're
cynical, so nothing's evergoing to change.
And number three, it'simpacting our performance.
And that's important because ifwe think we can override this
and the reality, we cannot.
If you don't do this for yourhealth, think of it for the
(12:39):
brand that you've been buildingfor the past, whatever five
years, couple of decades, it'sworth paying attention to.
But here's the thing with thesethree signs before we get fully
exhausted, we were just havingless energy.
Before we got fully cynical, westarted feeling less engaged
(13:01):
and before it was impacting ourperformance, we started seeing
more things fall through thecracks.
But what happened?
As we were seeing these earliersigns and there are others,
like concentrations, not as good, we may be more impatient, for
example in our interactions, butwhat happens is we have some
(13:24):
degree of self-awareness.
We see it, but we tellourselves but it's normal, given
how busy I am.
Or we tell ourselves, itdoesn't matter, I'm just going
to put my head down and keepgoing.
Or the solution to this is tofinish whatever I need to finish
, so I'll just plow through andkeep going.
So, in effect, we ignore thesigns and so if we ignore these
(13:44):
signs.
They keep going.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And I guess there's a peer social pressure there as
well, which is not to think well, you know, I don't want to
express this to other people, somaybe we don't even talk about
it to others because we think,well, everybody's kind of
working hard or, you know, canhave a bad day, right kind of
(14:07):
working hard or, you know, canhave a bad day, right, yes, yes,
that will happen.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And if right now your environment is a bit like this,
then I would say early, ideallyfind your person.
Is this your coach?
Is this one of your peers thatyou two have a good, trusting
relationship together?
Is this a spiritual leaderthat's part of your life and,
for you, is a good person tospeak to?
Whoever you want to find thatperson If you are in a work
(14:33):
environment where you cancontribute to building a culture
of.
We hear a lot the words ofpsychological safety.
It is a valid concept.
It's what it means is can wecreate an environment where,
yeah, we can actually trulyshare with each other how we're
feeling?
We can.
When we ask someone how they'redoing, we can expect an honest,
(14:56):
actually authentic responsewhich may have, oh yeah, some
positives.
Some challenging moments,because if we do this again,
we're being more real.
Some challenging momentsBecause if we do this again,
we're being more real, whichthen allows us to deal with the
situation much better.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So if I'm just putting myself now in the shoes
of the listeners out there, somepeople might be already going.
Oh, I'm experiencing some ofthis and, at the same time, like
going back to what you saidearlier on a lot of people are
aware of what you know dobecause you can get, are aware
of what you know do because youcan get this stuff in book.
You get this stuff out there.
It's out there, you know.
(15:29):
Here's some of the things youshould do, but I think what
you've really focused in on andthis is what I wanted to get to
here is you advocate foreveryone to have their own
personal strategic resilienceplan.
So what is a strategicresilience plan and why is it so
important?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yes.
So I'll tell you how an analogythat came out of my mouth one
day when working with someonewho was asking me literally a
question fairly similar to this,and I said well, so, and your
listeners some of them may be ina business setting, but even if
we're not, you'll understandthe situation.
(16:10):
If we're in an organization andwe now have a new idea for a
new product or a new service,are we going to say, okay, I've
got this great idea, let'slaunch it.
Or are we going to say idea,let's launch it.
Or are we going to say I havethis great idea, all right,
let's look at who else isselling this exact same thing.
(16:31):
How much are they selling itfor?
Who's buying it?
Which forces in the near or farfuture may impact the demand
for it?
We would do all this right.
In effect, we're looking at thecontext for this launch, and
that will lead to a strategicplan and a more successful
launch, which is great.
So here for our resilience, weactually need to do the same
(16:53):
thing.
If all we do is say, yeah, weknow the things and we just say
I should do the things, we don'tdo the things, and it doesn't
work If, instead, we say, allright, we know some of the key
things that would have an impacton our resilience.
I can cover them in a second ifwe want, and I'm going to
actually look at and that's whatI bring people through in the
(17:14):
book.
It's a concise book.
If you're flying for four hours, you can get through it and get
your plan when you get out.
So it's very doable.
And we'll share some worksheetsas well which can be used even
without the book.
You can use them without orwith the book.
But I bring people through areflection on okay, let's step
back.
What are your values?
Let's start with this.
This is what's going to makeyour plan unique to you.
(17:36):
I also bring people through anexercise of realistically
looking at your sources ofdemand, which we tend to
underestimate, and your actualsources of supply of energy,
which we tend to overestimate.
We can talk about that too.
Third piece is I bring peoplethrough the equivalent of a SWOT
(17:58):
analysis, right, when, inbusiness, we would look at what
are the internal sources ofstrengths and weaknesses to this
particular project, theexternal opportunities and
threats.
So we can do this for ourselvesin our context, and then we can
write a plan.
So see, this is the differencebetween someone saying, oh yeah,
(18:19):
I should exercise five times aweek and well, I'm not To okay,
I value health.
In my current context, I'm notinvesting any time on this value
.
I'm working all the time and Ithought I would go for a walk
once in a while.
I'm not.
My context means that I cannotactually go for walks.
(18:39):
I live in a place where it'snot easy for me to get out of
the door or whatever.
So then the plan might have apillar that will be called
health.
That may have an action that issimply to focus on deep
breathing five times each time Iwash my hands.
So now I've not added more timeto my day.
(19:03):
It's not requiring anythingthat right now is not possible
or harder, but I've got anaction that I can implement and
that we know from research willlead to positive outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I teach some stuff like this myself, a little
bit related to habit stacking.
So you know you want to build anew habit stack.
Add it on to something you'realready just doing habitually.
It often is easier just to slotit in and before you know it it
becomes an extension of whatyou're already doing.
That's a little bit what I'mhearing there.
(19:36):
Um, fantastic, fantastic, uh,technique and and um always goes
down incredibly well withaudiences because they go huh,
huh, I can do that.
You know, it's one of thesethings like I've.
There was a great Britishmedical doctor TV doctor who
unfortunately passed away in2024, but he wrote a great book
(19:58):
called Just One Thing, michaelMosley, and so it's full of all
these little tips.
But one of the fascinatingthings I do is stand on one leg
whilst you're brushing yourteeth.
So one leg for the top row, oneleg for the bottom row, and it
strengthens your core.
It's giving you some exercise.
So there's lots of little thingsyou can do, but I wanted to get
to some of the things you justmentioned.
(20:20):
They're on my list to get to ina minute or so, but before we
get to digging deeper intosupply and demand and values and
and context and things.
Um, I want you to just talk alittle bit about the
intersection of thoughts, moods,physical reactions and
behaviors, because for me thisis a real leverage point, and so
(20:42):
maybe you can elaborate onthoughts, moods, physical
reactions and behaviors and theinterplay between those four
factors.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
This is a great question, and it is, in fact, a
chapter in the book where I talkabout cognitive behavior
therapy and theory, andbasically at a very high level.
One of the things that'scritical for us to keep in mind
is that as humans, yes, we havethoughts, feelings, behaviors.
They are related, of course,and most of the time it works,
(21:15):
thankfully.
However, there are times whenour thinking is actually not
going to be so helpful.
It will perhaps be more on thenegative side, more negative
than it needs to be, and often,when that's the case, it's our
thinking that will just become abit.
We call this biased, and a veryobvious one that we can notice
(21:40):
more easily.
Most of us is the all ornothing thinking.
This is never gonna work.
There's no way I can go throughthis change.
I'm always failing.
You know those sort of extremeall or nothing, but there are
many others as well, and wecould talk about this for a long
time, but, in a nutshell, themain direction with this is to
(22:00):
be aware of our self-talk and tonot necessarily take it as fact
.
So being efficientprofessionals and leaders a lot
of the time, the way we think is, in fact, very helpful.
We want to take action based onit and it works.
But it's not because most ofthe time it's like this that all
(22:22):
of the time it's like this.
So it's about keeping in mindthat sometimes the thinking is
not going to be helpful and wemay want to put it aside and
consider a different approachinstead.
For example, a lot of highlyperforming individuals will have
a bit of an anxious side tothemselves, like you'll be
(22:44):
outside and you'll somehow catchyour brain wanting you to not
walk on the cracks on thesidewalk or something like this
or other ways.
So if we start buying into this, then it becomes a bigger deal.
If we just say, oh yeah, thisis me sometimes being a bit more
anxious deal, if we just say,oh yeah, this is me sometimes
being a bit more anxious, youcan let it go and move on to the
next thing.
So it's a small example.
(23:04):
And if it gets harder, ofcourse that's when we want to
work with, say, a psychologist,for example.
But the point is the way wethink influences how we feel,
how we behave all of our self,our experience, and so paying
attention to how we think isworth it, keeping in mind
sometimes it's not going to behelpful and then bringing it
(23:25):
back to just more realisticthinking.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You mentioned a concept.
I guess it's a model you'vedeveloped yourself.
You call it bear thinking.
Is this just because you're outin the wild all the time I know
you like to be out in natureand you've just thought, okay,
those guys will be good for amodel, or was it?
Is it what is bear thinking?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
oh, the way I came to this, um so.
So, like I said, there are manyways in which we can bias our
own thinking and there are.
Seriously, it's as ifresearchers have loved finding
all the ways and we probablyhave a hundred categories.
Right, we could bepersonalizing things, we could
be catastrophizing, minimizing,maximizing.
(24:08):
You know, there's a number ofthem and part of what I'm saying
is we don't want to feed thisthinking.
Now, yes, I happen to be someonewho's often in the wilderness
with both black bears andgrizzly bears, which I tried to
stay away from.
But one of the key things I raninto once on a campground was
(24:28):
this sign that said you know,don't feed the bears, which, of
course, no, you don't want tofeed the bears, any bears.
But then I thought, well,that's a very interesting,
because that's exactly the samething we don't want to do with
unhelpful thoughts.
And then I thought, well,that's a very interesting,
because that's exactly the samething we don't want to do with
unhelpful thoughts.
And then I figured wait, asecond BEAR.
That could be an acronym forsort of black and white thinking
, b or R or nothing that I wasmentioning earlier, and then E
(24:53):
could be emotional reasoning.
So when we start thinking, oh,I feel incompetent, so I am, for
example, that's just unhelpful,not true?
Right A was for anchoring.
Sometimes that tendency to it'salways been like this, so it's
going to be like this again.
Not necessarily the case.
And R?
Wait a second, I'm having ablank.
(25:14):
I've had a blank on that letteronce before.
Do you have it in front of youby chance?
Not directly in front of me, butwe could we could brainstorm it
like reactive or whatever it isReading people's mind.
It came back Reading people'smind.
There you go.
Otherwise I would have had tosay, oh, you're going to have to
buy the book to find out, butno, no, you read you read my
(25:34):
mind or I read your mind.
Oh, who knows?
But but that's another bias,right?
Um, that can you know.
We can start thinking oh my god, everyone in the room is
thinking that I'm incompetent,for example.
Therefore, I am again.
No, we cannot read people'smind.
Not helpful, stay with yourgame and keep carry on.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So yeah, that's how the bear analogy came so, so so
they the the term that youborrowed for economics around
supply and demand.
Could you maybe unpack that alittle bit with some examples
for our listeners?
You know this idea because youtalk about in the book and you
you really talk about.
I think you use that kind ofprinciple of supply and demand
(26:16):
from economics to try andillustrate it.
So unpack it for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yes, and I'm using it differently for how we mean it
in economics.
So, but here, but it is theterms that often were used to
using, so it was a bit of a wayto catch people's attention.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry
Murray, and my guest this weekis author and resilience expert,
marie-hélène Pauletier.
In the next part of ourconversation, marie-hélène dives
deep into her strategicresilience plan, explains why
values matter and how leaderscan build resilience in their
(27:03):
teams and organizations.
So stay tuned to explore thesepowerful tools to help you
thrive.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I have to say it turns out this particular
worksheet I mentioned.
We will have the link forpeople, but this particular
worksheet is the one that mostpeople have gotten back to me
saying this was the biggestshift in their approach in
feeding their own strategicresilience plan.
(27:34):
So one pager, two columns,demands on one side, supply on
the other.
And in this here I'm justsaying part of what happens to
very perform, highly performingprofessionals and leaders is
that we will tend to minimizethe demands we're facing.
So I'll ask so you know.
(27:55):
So, list your the demands youhave in your life.
People will usually list two orthree things at work that they
would rather not have, that aresort of irritating.
That's it.
They'll stop there.
Then I'll say, okay, well, wedon't just have a professional
life, we have a personal life,so let's list a few there.
So they'll list a couple ofthings, same thing, that they
(28:17):
would rather not have, and thenI'll say, well, okay, now let's
list even more.
And as they start payingattention they realize, oh yeah,
well, I'm also, you know,filling in for this colleague
who needs to be away, and thenthey'll realize there are
positive demands.
I also got this new, really bigclient that I've been hoping to
(28:38):
work with for a long time.
But oh, now that means morepressure on me too, or on the
personal side.
Very happy, we're just movingto this new place, but it's a
move, and a move is demanding.
So you see, just talking aboutit for one more minute makes us
realize no, it's not two orthree things, it's 15.
Okay, let's have a morerealistic look there.
(28:59):
And same thing on the supplyside.
So what brings you energy?
Then I'll say to people, okay,what do you have there?
And then they'll say, oh, yeah,I like to go for a walk three
times a week with my partnerafter dinner.
Great, how many times did yougo in the past two weeks?
And then they'll say, uh, well,in the past couple of months
I've been very busy.
So, no, it did not happen there.
(29:21):
Well, okay, it doesn't go onthe list then.
And then they realize there'snot much on the list.
And so that's moving us fromwhat I call an optimistic bias
oh I don't have that manydemands, oh I have lots of
supply to a more realisticperspective.
Because without that realisticperspective again we think we
(29:43):
don't need to take any action onour resilience.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Not true, and, of course, the another byproduct of
having lots of demands is when,when things don't get closed or
finished off, it's like havinga bucket with holes in it.
This energy is just leaking outbecause all these things are
running in the background thatyou haven't actually finished
off and and and.
Then, as you say, if the supplyisn't there because a lot of
(30:09):
it's downtime, how much energydo we have to actually do the
things?
And reminding ourselves thatthey need to be done has also
got negative impacts on us,because we just keep going oh,
oh, my God, I'm never going toget to that.
So what do people do with theirsupply and demand inventory
then, when you've done it withthem?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yes, Well, it's one of the pieces of information we
need to inform the strategicplan.
So one of the ways it becomeshelpful is even that example.
You know that example we werejust talking about.
Okay, so let's say we we nowjust did this realize we have a
list of 15 demands and not muchon the supply side.
Okay, and we've also done, say,our review of our values,
(30:51):
what's most important for me inlife?
Let's say relationship, health,um, power, finances, whatever
is on your list here.
So you start seeing thedisconnect between, okay, I've
got these values and really allI'm doing is working, or getting
things done.
Okay, and then we're going tolook at your context, that SWOT
(31:12):
analysis.
But then it may lead to someonedeciding on their strategic
plan, Maybe pillar number one.
I often recommend three pillarsso that it's manageable.
Maybe one pillar for thisperson will be prioritize, where
I put my energy.
And so now and I've had oneperson I worked with who was
(31:32):
reflecting on exactly that shesaid she went from having an
endless list of things to do andconstantly feeling dissatisfied
with it because it's endless,to having a clear list of the
few things she has to do andthat's it.
Immensely more focused,satisfying and time to do the
other things she wanted to getto that were aligned with her
(31:55):
values.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, I've tried out quite a few of these um
approaches, and less iscertainly more um, because, in
getting back to the values, oneof the nicest things I ever came
across was, in order to be ableto say no to something or
somebody, you need to be able tosay yes to yourself, and that
(32:17):
means knowing what you'reimportant to you and then saying
, okay, I'm just going to haveto say no to those things
because they don't fit withwhat's important to me now.
And when you get the contextagain, what's important to me to
now and maybe for three, sixmonths, that might change
because some other things maybecome more important later on.
(32:39):
But if you're not aware ofthese things, you don't know how
to shift.
Isn't that right?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Exactly, and you see the parallel with exactly what,
the way in which a strategicplan is so helpful in business.
Same thing right, as a business, quite potentially you could
offer additional services,additional products, all kinds
of other things.
You've got the resources,potentially, but you've decided
(33:03):
where you're going, based on thevalues of this organization,
where you're going to play youroverall context, and that's
exactly what a strategy does.
Here as well.
In a business, a newopportunity comes.
We carry it through the lens ofour strategic plan and if it
fits, it fits.
Maybe the strategic plan needsto evolve.
(33:24):
That's also an option, butwe're not just jumping on it
because it's there.
So same thing here having thatclarity which sometimes people
think, oh, it's going to take me10 hours to get there.
No, it will not.
You could just use theworksheets, not even get the
book, and that will still putyou in that position, but it
puts so much more power.
People say they feel groundedand they have clarity, and who
(33:49):
doesn't love that?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
right, there's lots of people out there going where
can I get these worksheets?
But we'll get there.
We're going to get to that part, so just be patient, because
strategy requires patienceanyway.
So just we'll get there.
Okay, and you make thisimportant link in the book
between strategy and actions asa plan in constant evolution.
What do you mean by?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
that Same as in business.
So in business, here, we willcreate a strategy in this moment
in time that will have aduration.
Right, it will be valid.
Sometimes it's for two months,sometimes six months, sometimes
a year, and sometimes, whateverduration we thought it would be,
we may decide that it needs tobe revised sooner because the
(34:34):
context has changed.
And so same thing here for ourresilience plan.
Say me, for example, when I knewthat my book was going to
launch three months down theroad, so the last, you know, the
three months prior to thelaunching of the book, then I
thought, oh wait, a second,using my own medicine, my own
(34:55):
book.
That means my context is goingto change when that happens.
So how do I plan for this?
And there were various pillarsin my strategy, but one of them
was that I was not going toapproach the various demands in
a similar way.
I was going to protect moretime, even though I didn't know
exactly what was going to happen.
I knew it was going to be moredemanding.
(35:17):
Everyone was telling me I feltlike not listening, but I did,
thankfully.
And so that's what I did.
And I'm so thankful I didbecause now, and having not gone
through this experience.
Before, all I could do waslisten to other people.
Creating a strategy for thatperiod that was going to be very
(35:38):
unique allowed me to be in thatphase do all the things, but
also, which I learned after,actually enjoy it, as opposed to
doing all the things andrunning after all the other
things I'm trying to alsoaccomplish, because I made no
change, because I kept the sameplan.
No, the plan evolved becausethe context was changing, and
(35:59):
that's the point of the book.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Are you familiar with a concept called all meaning?
Is context dependent?
Yeah, right exactly because Ithink sometimes people miss that
if the context starts changinga lot of what you, whatever
something meant, let's say, acouple of weeks ago, it may not
(36:21):
mean the same thing, because thecontext has changed again and
we often have to see things inthe context to know what to do.
And actually ignoring contextis something you do at your
peril, because I know, but we dothat all the time.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
People will make assumptions about oh yeah, I can
do this, I can do that.
This is going to take me twohours, one hour.
This is based on old data.
This is you 10 years ago.
This is you last time you didthis.
Your context is different.
I mean, our brain is differentalso as we age and time keeps
going.
So, yeah, know the context.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
So how does technology affect our ability to
be resilient, and couldtechnologies actually help us
treat in inverted commas ourburnout, anxiety and other
mental health tendencies?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Well, technology is a broad term, and at this point I
mean there's a broad term andat this point I mean there's
advantages, disadvantages,no-transcript.
If I go high level in answeringyour question, I would say
consider technology, so overallAI, machine learning, all of
(37:38):
these consider this as more as asource of demand.
Now, keep in mind, demands canbe negative, can be also
positive, but for us right now,technology is still a change
from not having it to having it.
So therefore, I would say,first and foremost, let's
(37:59):
consider it the demand that itis, because then, if we do, in
effect, we're looking at thecontext in a more realistic way
and we'll build our resiliencemore proactively.
If we go in the more granularand there are some for some
people there will be advantagesof having more information, for
(38:19):
example, from what your wrist istelling you in the morning
about how well you slept, forexample, things like that.
And then for many right now,there's also the possibly even
bigger challenge of taking abreak for your phone from your
phone right, and so, overall,just that's a, that's
considerate the demand mostlythat we want to proactively
(38:41):
build resilience for, so that wecan navigate it as best as we
can as as a human partner right.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
So it comes back again to your worksheets, and,
and, and you know technologydoesn't sit as a separate thing.
It's part of our lives, so it's, it's factored into looking at
supply, demand values, contextand yeah yes, yes, yes, and it
for some people.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right now it feels like it's already there.
For most people, we know it'saround, and then for some others
it's very, very present.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
So back to the leading people theme and I have
one kind of big last questionhere.
You say the individual, teamand organization resilience are
all related.
Could you maybe provide someexamples for our listeners of
how this plays out and reallythe impact that leaders have on
(39:37):
the relationship between thesefactors?
So the individual, the team andthe organization.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Leaders have a large impact and sometimes the best
leaders have this humble side tothem that makes them think that
they are as no more or lessimportant than anybody else, and
that is true.
At the same time, if you are ina leadership role I mean, I
(40:07):
would even say anyone whetherwe're in a leadership role or
not are influencing the team.
We're in, the organizationwe're in.
That being said, if we are in aleadership role, we are having
more of an impact.
If nothing else, just becauseyou have this role, more people
are looking at how you'rehandling things, what you're
(40:27):
saying, what you're noticing ispositive or challenging.
So it is an importantresponsibility, it's a fabulous
opportunity and, even if we arein our humble self in a number
of ways, it's much better torecognize this than to pretend
it's not there and thereforewe're actually going to miss
(40:51):
opportunities.
So I would say important role.
Now, yes, workplace is a system.
There's the individual, theteam, the organization.
At a broader level, there isthe country we're in the moment
in time it is.
You know, it is a verycontextualized, again, concept,
but in a workplace, this isextremely important because what
(41:11):
it means is that, whether we'retalking about burnout,
psychological safety, resilienceas individuals, teams or
organizations.
It is within that system.
It is a shared responsibility,shared opportunity, shared
responsibility as well.
(41:34):
So, for example, if you're aleader and you're saying, okay,
how can I contribute to myteam's resilience, for example,
maybe and it brings us back toour earlier part of this
conversation where you weresaying, well, what if I don't
feel comfortable sharing withothers that I'm struggling?
For example, be that leader,start, for example, start small.
Instead of if someone asks youhow your weekend was and you
(41:55):
went for a great walk or hike ora bike ride, whatever, instead
of just saying you know, goodweekend went for my bike ride,
how about you say great weekendwent for my bike ride,
especially important for me,given how busy we're going to be
this week, how demanding thecurrent pressures are.
(42:16):
See, it's not a big addition.
You didn't put your heart onthe table in a massive way, but
what you did do is share a bitmore of you personally, of how,
yeah, you're protecting yourresilience, how we can talk
about resilience here, and theseare the kinds of comments,
responses, that start buildingeven more of that trust, that
(42:40):
psychological safety whichallows us to have conversations,
including those aboutresilience, yeah because there's
so much out there today aboutthe manager and the leader.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Um, and you know it's all about leadership and it's
all about you know.
Obviously we talk aboutcontagion, you know, and role
modeling.
You know, if leaders don't rolemodel and their behaviors and
uh, moods and that can becontagious and affect other
people.
And yet there's so much.
I mean managers are soessential to an organization,
(43:14):
whether you call them managersor leaders, depending on where
they may be, what the type ofroles they have, they're so
essential to an organizationbecause people still look to
others for guidance, to maybe Idon't know set direction.
And yet a lot of the statisticsare showing that the poor
managers are suffering more thananybody else out there.
You know, we're always saying,well, the manager is not
(43:36):
engaging their people, but oftenthose people feel they're not
being engaged by maybe somebodyelse or some other managers and
I've seen rates of up to 60percent of managers feeling
close to burnout.
I mean Gallup's doing researchon this.
Mckinsey's written a book aboutthe importance recently of
middle managers and how they'reso vital.
And what would you say to thatperson out there now listening
(44:01):
who says, well, it's all verywell, everybody's saying the
manager the manager, or theleader the leader.
But I'm suffering, I'm theperson who's having to, I'm
getting.
You know.
They often say middle managers,they're getting squeezed,
they're like in the middle of asandwich.
The people underneath them arepushing at them, the people
(44:21):
above them are pushing at them.
Maybe this is a way of comingto the end of this particular
conversation.
I mean, I would normally lookfor maybe a couple of insights
that you would share with ouraudience.
Maybe you could at least shareone insight with managers who
may feel totally beaten up andthat's not going to help them be
resilient, I think, if theyfeel they've got nowhere to go.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
So yeah, it is a very challenging role which for many
years was considered oh, it's aeasier role, it's a role, it's
a well-paid role, whatever rightTo tough it out or you don't
need any support, that kind ofthing.
Seriously, even in the academicliterature, it's only in the
recent years that we've startedseeing information about the
(45:02):
challenges of leaders, forexample, specifically when there
is massive layoff, for example.
It's actually not that easy.
So, and being in this positionof lower management type role is
the toughest.
I have been in it.
I know exactly what you'redescribing.
The pressure is coming from bothsides.
You're protecting your team andyou're trying to just receive
(45:26):
whatever you're receiving fromyour upper management Get
support, get support.
Do not keep this just in youEven.
Don't keep it also just inbuilding your own plan on your
own.
Your pillars here, yourstrategic pillars, yes, might
(45:48):
involve things that will buildyour own resilience individually
, like your exercise, nutrition,sleep, all these things, yes,
and you've got to have in yourother pillars your relationships
with others and possiblygetting professional support.
So, and literally, I would makeit a pillar because if it may
(46:09):
mean seeing if you can engagefurther your own leader here in
the organization Sometimespossible, sometimes not, but
it's worth a shot.
Sometimes it's gatheringadditional professional
development support in the formof a coach, in the form of other
training.
Get out.
The tendency will be to retreatin, to think it's something in
(46:31):
you that you need to fix or doon your own, or that there is
something wrong with you.
And no, no, no.
You want to get out and getthose resources, for two reasons
.
One, get additional support inmaking it potentially, or having
additional reflection on isthis the right place for me to
be right now?
(46:52):
Maybe this is this role, butsomewhere else.
Maybe it's a different role.
Maybe it's this roledifferently, but if it's not
going in the good directions,change something sooner rather
than later.
It's not going to get better.
The trend is there, so you wantto do something to change that
trend.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Right.
So that's just listening tothat.
I think that's precious advice.
I'm just going to ask you forone more little contribution to
that thought process.
Many of our listeners areworking in HR and you know the
challenge with coaching is, as afriend of mine, who went
through a very tough time andbecame a real example of
(47:33):
resilience, once said to me.
She said the problem withcoaching is you only actually
know that it's very valuablewhen you've gone through it.
But then you have to beprepared to either pay for it or
go through it to find out howuseful and valuable it is.
So in an organizational contextbecause I know when I worked in
a big organization I didn'tspend any money on my own
(47:53):
personal development.
I expected the organization.
It was like well, I'm here, youknow, you guys send me on
trainings, but only when I leftI began to invest in my own
stuff and go to courses, lookingat the stats, looking at people
, maybe having people come tothem.
Maybe HR sometimes is thatfirst confidant that a person
(48:17):
can have.
What would you say to them interms of you know, from your
research and your experience andwriting this book, what would
you say they could do maybe tohelp people in their
organizations who might bestruggling.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
It's a great question because it makes me think of
two aspects to this.
Number one, I would say you, asHR person, do all these things
for you, because the HR role isa challenging one too.
Right, because you get peoplefrom the organization coming to
you, sometimes thinking they canbe that confident person and
(48:52):
there are between the employeesand their responsibilities to
the organization as well, right.
So it's a challenging role tonavigate with authenticity and
it's fairly demanding.
So I'd say, make sure you doyour own thing here In terms of
sharing with others.
I would say take a step back tolook at your own, the
(49:15):
organization's, mental healthstrategy.
So I'm calling it that becausemore and more organizations have
a mental health strategy, somedo not.
Yet They'll have more of ahealth strategy general, which
potentially traditionally willbe more physical health focused.
But maybe what we need to do ifwe're hearing see, we are on HR
(49:37):
we're hearing more and morepeople bringing up these
challenges let's step back andthink about is it time to evolve
our health strategy?
Do we need a specific mentalhealth strategy?
Because then, if you do that,the reality is that if trying to
just support the individualshere in a bit of a granular way
(49:59):
is something.
However, we're dealing with anorganization, so we need to
think about it in that broadersense, and having that mental
health strategy here for theorganization will be good.
It will involve looking at thekinds of resources you have
right now, the kinds of whatevermetrics you have about the
engagement, overall mentalhealth of your employee
(50:21):
population and what otherresources perhaps we need right,
and so then you're able tosupport this.
This, I mean some of thatbelongs to the individuals
themselves, but as anorganization, yeah, I mean some
of that belongs to theindividuals themselves, but as
an organization, yeah, sometimesthat's where you're going to be
able to map out the ways youcan support the overall employee
population in a way that makessense to them, given what you're
(50:43):
hearing.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
Those are great insights and thank you for
sharing.
So what's next for you?
Speaker 3 (50:52):
and thank you for sharing.
So what's next for you?
Ah well, there's still a lot ofconversations to be had about
the book, the Resilience Plan.
The book is getting translatedin German next year and
hopefully many other languages,continuing to, of course, do
talks on anything and manydifferent aspects related to
resilience, like AI andresilience, for example, and
(51:13):
then building online courses aswell.
So lots to do.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So it sounds like you're going to be very busy.
So how do people get in touchwith you?
And let's get to some of thisspecial offer that we talked
about earlier.
But first, how do people get incontact with you, and then what
?
You have an offer for people,our listeners out there, if they
want to take advantage of it.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you for asking.
So LinkedIn is one of theplaces.
I'm in other places as well,but that's the one where I'm
most active.
So find me on LinkedIn, connectthere so we can see each
other's comments.
I always love that.
Otherwise comments, I alwayslove that.
Um, otherwise, the resilienceplancom will bring you to
(51:57):
everything that I do the book,the worksheets, a book free
first chapter if you you'reinterested in doing this.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
It brings you to everything I do yeah, and so I
will put some links in the shownotes and I would encourage
everybody to check out the book.
It's available at all goodbookstores, amazon, etc.
So, as ever, thanks,marie-hélène, for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withme and my listeners here today.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
Oh, it was an absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Gerry.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
But then, of course, the question is and that brings
us to the second part how do youdefine a strong culture?
How do you define a great placeto work?
And the good thing there isthat it's really a very rigid
methodology.
It has been developed overthose 40 years, but over those
(52:59):
40 years and it's kind ofnormative model, you could say,
where we believe that there's afew important elements that
define a great place to work,and one of them is the high
trust leadership.
You already mentioned theimportance of leadership.
I can go a little bit deeperinto what it really means, into
what it really means, but onepart is high trust leadership,
which is how do employeesappreciate the connection
between them and theirleadership and management in the
organization?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Next time, on Leading People, we're joined by Koen
Duetink, ceo of Great Place toWork Belgium and Professor of
Human Resources at VlericBusiness School.
Kuhn reveals what truly makesan organisation a great place to
work and why listening toemployees' voices is at the
(53:43):
heart of it all.
Discover how evidence-basedculture management can transform
workplaces and createenvironments where people thrive
.
This insightful conversation ispacked with useful advice about
how you can create and lead agreat place to work.
You won't want to miss it.
(54:04):
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you, a quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
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