July 28, 2025 • 48 mins
What separates exceptional leaders from mediocre managers?
This week's guest, Andrew Palmer, Senior Editor at The Economist and host of the Boss Class podcast, has spent years interviewing some of the world's most influential executives to answer this question.
Drawing from his extensive experience writing the witty and insightful Bartleby column and developing the Boss Class podcast series, Andrew reveals that great leadership isn't only about charisma or authority - it's about mastering the art of balance.
During our conversation, Andrew unpacks four critical leadership dimensions that emerged from his research.
First, effective leaders act as amplifiers of culture and strategy, using systematic approaches to project their vision throughout an organisation. Companies like Stryker implement this through deliberate hiring practices, organisational structures, and shared language, while Levi's CEO Michelle Gass creates tangible symbols to reinforce strategic priorities.
Second, self-management distinguishes exceptional leaders. Andrew shares a valuable insight from his presentation training with RADA: "turn selfie view off"— focus on your audience rather than yourself. GSK's Emma Walmsley consciously manages her emotions, knowing they impact everyone around her, while other executives create explicit "user manuals" detailing their working preferences.
Third, Andrew demystifies negotiation and decision-making. From the diamond district in New York to diplomatic negotiations with Iran, successful negotiators focus heavily on preparation and relationship-building before formal discussions begin. For decision-making, distinguishing between "one-way doors" (irreversible choices) and "two-way doors" (easily changed decisions) helps calibrate appropriate decision speeds.
Finally, Andrew draws fascinating parallels between jazz improvisation and crisis management, showing how thorough preparation enables creative responses to unexpected challenges. When facing novel situations, leaders succeed by empowering frontline employees to respond based on shared principles rather than rigid protocols.
Whether you're a seasoned executive or newly promoted manager, this conversation offers invaluable insights into practical leadership challenges.
Andrew's thoughtful analysis, delivered with characteristic wit, illuminates why management remains difficult even for those at the top—and he provides concrete strategies for improvement.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me, Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Every other week I sit down with leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success, andin between I bring you one
simple thing short episodes thatdeliver practical insights and
(00:35):
tips for immediate use.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Whether you're here for useful tools or
thought-provoking ideas, LeadingPeople is your guide to better
leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
What can you learn about leadership from the
world's best and worst bosses?
Why do managers struggle withdelegation, self-management and
culture building even at the top, and how do we fix it?
To answer these questions andmany more, this week, I'm joined
by Andrew Palmer, senior Editorat the Economist, long-time
writer of the Witty Bartlebycolumn and host of the Boss
(01:16):
Class podcast.
Andrew has spent yearsinterviewing some of the world's
most high-profile leaders andtrying to make sense of why
management is still so difficult.
In this conversation, weexplore what he's learned from
the second season of Boss Class,diving into four big leadership
themes Culture and strategy,self-management, feedback and
(01:41):
the art of letting go.
It's a thoughtful and oftenhumorous take on what really
makes a good boss, so let's diveright in.
Andrew Palmer, welcome toLeading People.
Thanks for having me, gerry.
So now you're a longstandingvoice at the Economist magazine
(02:02):
and for me, you're known for thewitty and wise Bartleby column,
of which I'm a huge fan, andsince, I think, 2023, you're the
host of Boss Class, which is apodcast that's all about the
realities of modern management.
However, before we dive intoyour work and, in particular,
the Boss Class series, let'shelp my listeners get to know
you a little bit better.
(02:23):
And how did you get intojournalism and the Economist and
then come to focus your writingand podcasting on the world of
leadership and management?
And were there any people,moments like epiphany moments or
special assignments along theway that shaped your interest in
these topics and got you towhere you are today?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, you use the word longstanding right at the
the outset, which is code forold.
So I've been at the economistfor uh, well, must be getting on
for 25 years now, possibly evenmore.
Uh, so I've I've cycled throughmultiple jobs in that time.
We have two bits to theeconomist group.
There's a bit called the eiu,which is business to, and then
(03:03):
there's the magazine thateveryone knows and hopefully
loves.
So I've been at the magazinesince 2007,.
Been in multiple different rolesin that time, writing about
everything from banks to LatinAmerica, editing and writing.
The path to management is akind of sort of meandering one.
The way that we operate here isthat people tend to move jobs
(03:27):
quite regularly.
They develop an expertise butthen can move off.
We're sort of all magpies inour mindset.
So management was sort ofalways going to at some point be
in my future, I suspect.
But the reason that I gotinterested in it particularly is
that it is a kind of universalexperience with our subscribers.
(03:49):
So almost everyone who reads uswill have worked in an office
or does so now, and the sort offrustrations, the aspirations,
the experiences are common andit's a very, very rich vein,
therefore, for a column.
It's both entertaining,emotionally fraught and very
(04:14):
important, and all of thosethings together are very, very
rich for a writer.
So what I'm trying to do inthis is do something which is
helpful, I hope, has somepractical usefulness but also is
vaguely entertaining.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So have people stopped inviting you to meetings
at the Economist after allthese observations?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So there's always a kind of moment after a column
comes out when someone will comeinto the office and look at me
in a kind of worried way and saywas that about me?
I have to deny it, but ofcourse it was.
So, yes, it's basicallytrolling people.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Professionally.
That's what.
If you get work like that, whynot take it?
You know Well, exactly, yeah,and you are.
Before we get into boss class.
You are famous for something todo with a lettuce, isn't that
right?
Let us hear about that.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Oh, nice, nice, you can't beat a lettuce pun.
Okay, you've really done yourresearch.
Yeah, so I used to be theBritain editor.
Liz Truss, famously, ouringlorious and very short-lived
prime minister, was famouslycompared to a lettuce and the
genesis of that was a leaderthat I wrote.
(05:28):
And then some geniuses at theDaily Star saw that comparison
and set up the webcam which hadher and the lettuce juxtaposed
for a few days to see who wouldlast longer.
So I played some small part ina meme which is a really odd,
odd experience.
I wrote the column and thenforgot about it.
It was a leader actually wrote,wrote the leader, um had to do
(05:49):
something else, and then it sortof it went.
It went viral very, veryquickly, um, which is kind of an
odd experience for someone likeme.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, so I guess that's how the whole world of
influencers work.
You know, if you try too hardyou don't get there, and then
all of a sudden a lettuceopportunity comes along and a
prime minister who probablyshould be listening to should
have been listening to bossclass anyway probably to some of
the lessons that she might havemight have gleaned from the
(06:19):
people that you talked to.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I went to a play which was about Truss's
premiership.
It was a sort of fringe playand a sort of one-woman show and
there's a point in it where thelettuce comes out and the
character basically says, youknow, made up by some sort of
ignorant fool at the Economist,and I was sort of sitting there
(06:41):
in anonymity but feeling vaguelyuncomfortable about about the
whole thing.
So it's I'm I'm comfortable notto not to be too well known for
it not to be too well known forit.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Okay, so you talked about, uh, research.
Um, there, I like to researchmy guests as much as I can,
because then at least I have anidea what they're talking about.
Um, and one of the things thatalways impresses me about Boss
Class is the depth of researchthat seems to go into creating
the series.
And I listened to season one.
(07:13):
I remember listening to it.
Actually, I was passing throughDubai at the time and I was on
a treadmill and I was listeningto somebody talking about hiring
and how to get that right and Iwas quite hooked.
I heard you walking through somesort of was it a trail in
Norway or somewhere?
You were doing some sort ofoutward bound somewhere in the
Scandinavia.
So it's like all this wascoming together and and it was
(07:35):
full of fascinatingconversations.
And season two is shaping up aswe're.
As we're recording this, you'repartway through the release of
season two shaping up in thesame way.
Just for the benefit of mylisteners, who may not know what
we're talking about yet.
Who is this podcast for and whydid you decide to create a
second season?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, public demand was just overwhelming, gerry.
That was really the reason.
So the idea of the podcast ishow to be a good manager.
That is the kind of straplinefor it.
So it's basically translatingsome of the personality of the
column, but using the advantagesof audio in service of that
(08:14):
same mission.
So you know, very big picture,lots of people go into
management without any kind oftraining.
Lots of people are selected forpositions as managers on the
basis of being good at somethingelse.
I'm sure that you know a lot ofyour conversations kind of
reflect that truth.
So a whole universe of peoplewho are in positions of
(08:36):
authority and don't quite knowwhat to do or are being managed
by people who plainly don't knowwhat to do, and that felt like
a very big opportunity.
So each of the podcast episodesand you're right, we're into the
second season now there aredifferent formats we use, but
the spine of it is we havethematic episodes, we take a
topic hiring in the first seasonyou mentioned.
(08:58):
In this season we're doingthings like how to negotiate,
how to manage a crisis, how topresent and use the very
privileged access that we haveat the Economist and the very
talented people we have on thepodcast team to hopefully put
together something which coheresas a narrative and ends up with
something practical at the endof it.
(09:18):
So as a kind of as a resourcefor people who want to know how
to manage better in theworkplace.
That's our goal.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So we're going to dive into that a little bit more
in a minute.
I think what's nice about it isthis juxtaposing of the kind of
really nicely produced episodesof soundbites and you
commenting on that, and then weget to the in-depth
conversations where they arereally fascinating to listen to.
So I would encourage anybodyout there who hasn't yet
(09:47):
discovered Boss Class and wholikes to listen to podcasts
obviously you do, because youwouldn't be listening to this so
please go out there and checkit out and take out whatever
subscriptions on offer at thetime, because I think lots of
great stuff to discover there.
So you talked about fourbuckets or four themes that kind
of pervade the current season.
(10:08):
Let's maybe start to unpacksome of that.
I mean, obviously I've only hadthe chance to listen to some of
the interviews that you've doneand some of the content and
that, and so I'll do my best tointeract with that.
But you talked about managers asamplifiers of culture and
strategy, and I guess there'sthat famous quote from Peter
Drucker that said that famouslysaid culture eats strategy for
(10:30):
breakfast.
And in terms of implementing astrategy, that probably still
holds true because you know,whatever happens, it's cut down
to people's behavior.
So what did you discover abouttranslating strategy into
day-to-day behavior?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
on leading people.
The goal is to bring youcutting-edge thought leadership
from many of the leadingthinkers and practitioners in
leadership today.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
(11:11):
link with friends, family andcolleagues, and stay informed by
joining our leading peopleLinkedIn community of HR leaders
and talent professionals.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah.
So what I was trying to do isthink about not so much the
thematic buckets that we havefor each episode, but what are
the themes that run across theseries as a whole.
And one of them was this sortof very obvious conundrum that
bosses face, particularly ifyou're right at the top of a big
organisation, which is youcan't be everywhere.
So how do you amplify yourmessage, how do you transmit a
(11:47):
set of behaviours or values, aculture in other words, given
that you're one person upagainst multiple locations or
many, many people in a company,and so, thinking about that, you
sort of little things come outfrom different, different
episodes.
So, you know, most obviouslypeople repeat themselves an
awful lot, and just beingwilling to repeat yourself over
(12:11):
and over again seems like a veryunappreciated skill of a leader
.
So once you know what yourstrategy is, what you're trying
to do, you just have to say itover and over and over again.
The second thing is using, aswell as words, objects.
So we talked to Michelle Goss,who's the boss of Levi's, and
one of the things that in ourconversation we talked about was
(12:34):
her use of an object to conveya strategy.
So she likes to talk about atLevi's, the denim company, using
the microscope and thetelescope.
And so for a retailer, you usethe microscope to look at real
world data that's coming throughthe stores, and then for the
telescope, you're looking on thehorizon for trends that are
(12:56):
coming and that's a sort ofreasonably memorable idea.
But what she's done is createthese key rings.
She's had these key rings made.
She's given them to 250 of hersenior leadership.
It is, you know, microscope onone end, telescope on the other.
So it's a sort of clunkingmetaphor.
(13:18):
It's not subtle but it is asort of way of kind of her being
there and her voice being inpeople's minds as they go about
their job.
But I think probably the mostsystematic example that we spoke
to and this will be in theculture episode that's coming
out a couple of weeks after werecord this is with a medical
(13:40):
devices company called Striker,whose boss is called Kevin Lobo,
and he and the company as awhole have this very methodical
way of translating a culture andamplifying a message in
everything that they do.
So their culture is theydescribe it as high performance
(14:00):
and high humility, prettyhard-nosed but also not tolerant
of egos.
And again, I think theinteresting thing there is just
how systematic they are.
So there's the missionstatement, there is an
organisational lever.
So when a division gets too bigat Stryker, they basically chop
(14:22):
it in half, and the idea thenis that you're back to being an
underdog and you've got to kindof scramble and be hungry in
order to regain a top spot.
Uh, there are clearly hiringprocesses that look for a
particular type of person.
Uh, there are, um, there arethe use of Clifton strengths.
I'm sure you know this, jerry,do you have you come across this
(14:43):
in your?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
yeah so um pretty well read, yes.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Okay, I bet you, I bet Of course you are, of course
you are.
But, um, the this, this isthere, it is.
I mean cactuses and books, Ican see, I can see it all.
Um, but that, so, uh, they usethat language as a common
language in the organization sothat everyone sort of speaks a
striker language.
Everyone has a sense of theirtop five strengths, is pinned to
(15:07):
their cubicles.
They all kind of have this geland you can sort of go through
other things.
You know if you're, if you hityour, if you're 99.9% of the way
to your target, you've missedyour budget, that kind of thing.
So practices that also enforcethis kind of sense of what
matters to Stryker.
(15:27):
I think what came across fromthat was, just once you start to
think about different leversfor amplifying a message, you
realise there are very many ofthem, but lots of leaders and
organisations don't thinksystematically about them, they
don't sort of categorise them,they don't think about how they
should operate each of them.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
This was a good, I think, worked example of someone
projecting themselves verysystematically in multiple
channels through a globalorganization and the other area
I I even from the earlierepisodes so far have been this
how companies go about theinnovation part, which also you
(16:07):
know.
I think you talk to lego andyou talk to other organizations
about how they and you had theguys with the um in-vehicle
self-driving cars and that, howthey they also.
I guess that's a cultural thing, to get people to think in a
different way yes, it's cultural, it's mindset.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I mean, what we tried to do in the innovation episode
was counter the idea thatinnovation involves people
sitting around on beanbags orplaying table tennis or posting
things on sticky notes on onwalls, that it is a kind of
grinding and nonlinear process.
(16:48):
So Wave, which is thatself-driving car company that
you mentioned, that's aneight-year journey based on an
idea that was once an outlier inthe industry and has become
progressively more orthodox, anda combination of iterating and
innovating.
So a portfolio approach whereyou have some people in the
(17:10):
company coming up with new ideasand going after them in a small
scale at first and thenbuilding up and, in the other
parts of the company, sort ofiterating incrementally on
things where they know they needto make progress.
So I think that the innovationmessage is that this is not the
kind of classic genius has aserendipitous idea and
(17:32):
everything is great.
It's much more complicated,takes time, sustained effort and
lots and lots of differentpeople working on lots and lots
of different things.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, and the neuroscience actually shows that
there are very few aha momentsin innovation.
They are moments that arearrived at after intensive
thinking and experimenting.
Yes, the moments come whenyou're least expecting, perhaps
when you're not focused on them.
But aha moments are rare bythemselves.
They're always the product of alot of deep thinking and a lot
(18:05):
of exploration beforehand.
I believe, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, totally right, and one of the messages of an
interview we do with the boss ofCorning Corning is a glass
company.
It makes the coverings on yoursmartphone, the one that you've
got with you right now is thatyou cannot time the market for
innovation.
What you can do is work in adirection where you can be
(18:32):
reasonably confident that atsome point it will pay off.
So in their instance, they'relooking at making glass stronger
and more damage resistant, andat some point that is going to
pay off.
So the iPhone glass was basedon compositions which were
actually developed in the 1960sto create thickened windscreens
(18:53):
for cars.
That didn't work very well,because you don't actually want
people colliding with thickenedwindscreens.
It turns out, but thatcomposition is very useful at
the point when Steve Jobs comesalong and says you know, have
you got anything which mightwork for me?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah.
So I have a question before weleave the sort of theme of
culture.
I think you had the privilegeof visiting a lot of these
people in their buildings, ifI'm not mistaken.
Today it's not so easy, but youknow, I've always loved to go
to clients that I've worked withto actually absorb what's going
(19:29):
on.
When you went to those placeswas what you were hearing
palpable in the, just in thecorridors and just moving around
those buildings, or were thereany people in those buildings?
Maybe that's?
I should have asked you thatfirst.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, no, there are.
There are people in buildings.
I mean, of course, if you'regoing in as a journalist, then
people are going to behave in aslightly different way.
So there's always a bit of afilter and some things are not
signals at all.
So almost every place you go towill have words written on
walls which have nice abstractnouns that don't mean much.
So that's not a signal.
(20:06):
So that's not a signal.
But people, you know a CEO whowill kind of come and meet you
or is sort of operating in anopen plan office.
We went to Novo Nordisk and theCEO there was kind of sitting
in an actually standing in anopen plan office, and that's a
bit of a signal.
You know, if you're going totalk about openness and
(20:27):
collaboration but you're buriedin a corner office and you can't
get there except through aprivate lift, then that's a bit
of dissonance.
So there are some things thatyou can tell where and this
(20:47):
takes us onto the theme of kindof you know, feedback coming up
and towards bosses, but wheretheir philosophy was being lived
in front of our eyes you couldactually see the sort of idea of
continuous improvement, theidea of managers going out and
talking directly to theirmembers, as they call them.
That was going on and it wasimpossible to simulate that that
(21:11):
was embedded in the way thatthey operated.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
One of the key themes of this podcast is how to bring
out the best in yourself andothers.
So getting other people tofollow a strategy to shape a
culture is one thing.
One of the early episodes isthis fantastic self-deprecation
you did when you went topresentation, public speaking
training, where you sort of withyour knees and your jaw and
(21:39):
everything else and the threadcoming out of your head and
everything.
But there was a very importantmessage.
There wasn't there about thewhole aspect of how to manage
yourself and how to do this in.
You know, because a lot ofleaders have to do it.
It's required of them to beable to stand up in front of
other people but also walk theirtalk in that way, so they're
(22:00):
role models for what they expectother people to do.
What sorts of things did youlearn as you had these
conversations about that?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So presenting is really interesting actually,
because I spent a day with RADA,which is the famous acting
school in London, and they havean arm which does this
presentation coaching forexecutives and I don't enjoy it
myself.
I'm not good at it's sort ofspending a bit of time was very
(22:32):
useful in terms of just takingme out of myself and getting a
few techniques in terms of selfthings that I was doing wrong.
So you know, you lock yourknees and you're you're shot.
It's just like a disaster andposture and all of that, that
kind of stuff.
But probably the most importantthing that I heard on that day
was the coach used this phraseturn selfie view off.
(22:58):
So, rather than thinking onlyabout yourself and how you get
through a presentation, youthink about the audience, what
it is that you are trying to getacross to them, what emotion
you are trying to evoke in them.
So that was a kind of usefulframing device a really obvious
one, but a useful one for sortof thinking differently about
(23:20):
what it is that you're doing andwhat you're trying to project.
And I think that is a kind ofhabit of mind that typifies
people who are really good atleading.
They kind of know what it isthat they have to do and they
know how they come across andthey think about it very, very
intentionally.
So in the first season I'mreminded of a conversation we
(23:43):
had with Emma Walmsley, who'sthe CEO of GSK big drugs firm,
who kind of just talked veryopenly about like I know that my
interactions with people aregoing to sort of determine their
day.
Like if I'm stroppy or grumpyor kind of off with them then
it's going to ruin their day andpossibly their week.
(24:04):
So sort of putting on that CEOcloak and mask and set of
behaviours was very consciouslydone and I think some bosses
don't think about that at alland others really do spend quite
a lot of time thinking aboutthat and it comes across.
Another example of season oneis an executive called Claire
(24:25):
Hughes-Johnson who writes amanual about how she likes to
work and she gives it.
Have you got the book?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yes, it's a big chunky book.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
It is chunky.
It is chunky but it's verypractical.
It is a manual.
Actually it's like a referencebook, but she writes this
document which is kind ofworking with Claire is what it's
called, and it's basically akind of.
This is how I like to operate.
You know, I like this kind ofdata to be given to me in this
form.
I will take normally take, youknow, a couple of days to digest
(24:59):
information before making adecision.
So if you want something faster, you need to come and bug me,
and that level of sort ofovertly articulating what it is
that you are like to work withand what your own preferences
are is not commonly done but isvery useful in sort of holding a
mirror up to yourself and thenalso kind of training people
(25:20):
around you on kind of.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
These are the norms and the preferences you're
listening to leading people withme jerry marais.
My guest this week is andrewpalmer, senior editor at the
economist and host of the bossclass podcast.
Coming up, we explorenegotiation, decision making and
(25:45):
how to navigate.
A Another area that you coveredwhere turning selfie view off
is quite useful, because I teachit as well is negotiations
being able to put yourself inthe shoes of the people that
you're negotiating with, and Ithink was it the guys, which was
(26:05):
the guys who said listen,listen, listen and then listen,
listen, listen when you'renegotiating.
I find actually I personallyfind that to be one of the most
useful pieces of advice youcould give anybody.
Tell us a bit about thatexperience.
You went to the Diamond area inNew York.
You talked to negotiators there.
(26:28):
You talked to people teachingat Harvard.
You talked to Wendy Shermanabout the Iran deal, etc.
Wendy Sherman about the Irandeal, etc.
What emerged from thoseconversations?
Where, if you could synthesizethem, what were some of the
things that you took away?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
and said well, so we started from a position of great
ignorance, and when I say we, Imean I, and that's always a
useful starting point.
So we'd set it up that episodeby going to the Diamond District
.
It's basically the place wheremost diamonds come into America.
It's it's an extremely odd.
It's just one street in MidtownManhattan.
(27:06):
It's a kind of weird process ofalmost going back in time, like
everyone looks like they'vecome from Starsky and Hutch.
There's another reference from alongstanding kind of person,
and everyone has got dealmakingin their blood.
So you sort of feel like you'rea little kind of you're
defenseless.
At some point you're going toend up buying something that you
(27:28):
don't want and spending a lotof money.
So that's how we set theepisode up and then talk to a
variety of people.
So, as you say, jim Sabinius ofHarvard, but also people who
have done negotiating for aliving.
Wendy Sherman negotiated theIran nuclear deal, raffaella
Pimenta is a football agent whorepresents Erling Haaland, among
other people.
(27:48):
So people who live and breathethis, and their advice I think
can be summarized as saying that, although you might sort of
conceptualize negotiating asthat moment of the transaction,
when you're basically talkingabout price, it feels like a
zero-sum game.
It's much richer than that, andif you're teaching this, you
(28:19):
will.
You will, I'm sure, be sayingsomething, something similar
that a lot of it is in the setup, that it is sort of knowing
what people want, your own sideincluded.
What are your walkaway points?
Where is a negotiatingnegotiation happening?
How are you building allianceswith people who should be on
your side and, potentially,those who are not?
So?
If you listen to the extendedinterview with Wendy Sherman,
(28:40):
for example, a lot of it is thedrama of being in a hotel with
the Iranians and trying to getit across the finishing line,
but a lot of it is about how doyou win around these multiple
partners that the US had at thetime.
How do you win around peoplewithin the American political
system?
I mean, things have obviouslychanged a lot there now, but
(29:00):
it's that stuff that happensaway from the table, in the
language of the episode, thatreally determines success once
you get there.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, she gives that great example.
We won't explore it further,but the one about the
grandchildren and theconversation that finding
something human about the otherpeople was something that she
she emphasized quite a bit, eventhough she realized that I
think you don't necessarilyalways trust them or love them
and you can still see them ashuman beings doing their job.
I think that's.
(29:29):
That was an important, that'ssomething I got out of it anyway
, when she was explaining yeah,there was a.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
there's another example where um you, you might,
you might struggle even more tosummon up empathy.
We talked to Curtis Minder,who's a ransomware negotiator.
At the point where the cyberattack has happened and a firm
has decided they have no choicebut to pay, he's the person who
gets pulled in to negotiate onthe dark web with criminal
(29:56):
organizations to recover data.
And it's very hard to feelempathy for those people.
But he's definitely saying youknow, you must not treat them as
, as criminals.
You need to kind of somehow,you know, make them feel
respected, find some ground onwhich you can operate as
(30:20):
negotiators, okay.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And before we move on to another theme, I just want
to know how your wife took itwhen you didn't buy her that
ring.
Because did she say, where'sthat diamond ring?
You sold, the guy sold you.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I'm basically trying to get her not to listen
to that episode.
So you know, that's just.
I'm sort of like skipping thatone.
So you know, I, when shelistens to your podcast, jerry,
the game is up.
The game is up.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Okay, so some of the other themes that you, you, you,
you touch on is the whole areaof, like, decision-making, um,
and what?
What came out of thoseconversations around decision
making?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
yeah, so, um, it's.
It's one of the defining actsof a manager, one of the things
that makes organizations run,and it's amazing how bad humans
are at it for for variousreasons.
So I'm just, as as we speak, inthe process of writing the
column based on the episode ondecision-making and there's just
some really fun stuff aroundhow kind of stupid humans are
(31:25):
and how liable they are to makebad decisions.
So you know, people will bidstocks higher when it's sunny,
and the more sunny it is, themore they're willing to pay.
And if you have a good which ispackaged in plastic but then
wrap paper around it completelyunnecessary, extraneous paper
(31:48):
people will pay more for itbecause they think it's
environmentally sustainable.
So I mean, basically, it's awonder that humans have
succeeded at all.
So you're kind of facing thatproblem how do you make good
decisions?
And the episodes' messages kindof boil down to given that
individuals are susceptible tothese kind of biases and flaws
(32:11):
in thinking, it's up toorganizations to put in place
processes that lead to betteroutcomes.
One of the first questions thatyou have to ask is what kind of
decision is it?
So this is the Amazon languagearound one-way doors and two-way
doors.
A one-way door is a decisionthat's costly.
To reverse Two-way door, youcan go back reasonably easily
(32:36):
and so deciding what theconsequences of failure are are
they big, are they small?
And then calibrating speed tothat is really important.
And then the next question hasgone up who is taking the
decision?
And clarity about that is oftenmissing in organizations and is
a cause of delay andfrustration.
And so another of theorganizations and is a cause of
(32:59):
delay and frustration.
And so another of the episodeswe did and interviews we did was
with Supercell.
Are you a big mobile gamesplayer, jerry?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
No, I'm not, but I have a daughter working in the
industry, so I do hear aboutonline games and stuff from her.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Okay, so Supercell makes makes clash of clans and
heyday and other titles that I'mnot familiar with.
But we went to supercell, whichmakes these things very
successful, gaming company inhelsinki which has a very
radical way of thinking aboutautonomy and games.
Teams there are basicallyempowered to take decisions that
(33:35):
in other organizations would beunthinkable, including a
decision to kill a game.
So you can have teams that areworking on these things for
years sometimes, but if theydon't think it's going to work,
then they are able on their ownto basically say we're done, and
they do do that.
Their incentives, you'd think,would be perhaps not to do that,
(33:55):
but they do do that.
You know their incentives,you'd think would be perhaps not
to do that, but they do do that.
So the boss there isself-described the least
powerful CEO in the world, aFinn called Ilka Parnanen.
And you know autonomy peopleare comfortable with, they're
(34:17):
already sort of some way toanswering that second question.
I mean a long way.
Actually, it's almost thedefining part of their culture.
So if you know how to parse adecision into ones that matter
and ones that matter less, ifyou know who's taking the
decision and then if you have aprocess which gets rid of some
of those cognitive biases thatwe talked about earlier, then
(34:39):
you're, in very broad terms, along way towards having a better
outcome yeah, and I think I'mjust going to briefly reflect
what michelle gas said aboutdata versus instinct, and that's
her microscope telescope, kindof that.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You know, whilst data is useful and probably a lot of
decisions need data, you stillneed that sense of what the data
is telling you totally yeah,and instinct as well.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So she used to work at starbucks.
She was the person behind um,the pumpkin spice latte, uh, and
although it's not a drink I'vetried, it is clearly, you know,
civilizationally very important.
And at the point that they werethinking about that, consumers
did not like the idea of like apumpkin in their coffee,
(35:26):
reasonably enough.
It sounds disgusting.
But within Starbucks they weretesting this thing, felt like it
was going to be great and,importantly, also sort of asked
that, asked that question howbad would it be if it failed and
rolled it out.
And it's now a very importantpart of popular culture.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
One of my favourite episodes so far is the jazz
improv.
I'm a musician myself, but I'ma musician myself.
It's guided me in so manythings I've done where you, I
mean.
I play Irish traditional music,but it has a similar kind of
approach.
Nobody's ever playing the samenotes twice.
We're all in the same key, kindof playing the same melody.
(36:09):
Jazz musicians are really goodat this.
They're incrediblysophisticated at working off a
sort of some sort of standardbut then allowing things to
happen.
Tell our list, tell mylisteners a little bit about
that experience of talking to itwas it was a famous jazz
musician and a professor.
Is that right?
Who studies this stuff?
Isn't that what you did?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yes, that's right.
So this in our episode ofcrisis management we start off
talking to two, two academics,but one of them is a very
accomplished jazz musician, atrombonist in New York, who have
worked together for almost twodecades to kind of teach the
lessons of jazz for crisismanagement, of skepticism that
(36:52):
this would work.
But they were very persuasive,partly by not over claiming but
partly by playing, playingmusical examples that actually
brought home their messages thatthere was something in the kind
of improvisational butpracticed culture of jazz that
one could learn from.
(37:12):
And the episode features somegreat stuff.
But the like, the moment whichstands out to me is they play
this recording of EllaFitzgerald in a Berlin nightclub
singing Mac the Knife, and sheforgets the lyrics and just
starts improvising and sheliterally is sort of singing
what are the words?
(37:32):
But does so in such a kind ofamazingly smooth, um way that
you kind of don't notice andwhen you do notice it's nothing
but delightful.
Uh, and the one of the lessonsof that is that by spending
enough time planning, having areservoir of of knowledge, um
(37:53):
and um in, in their words, kindof values, that you can kind of
find a way to cope even withvery novel situations.
So it's not a question ofhaving really detailed
contingency plans for anyoutcome, but there was enough of
a sort of hinterland and astore of knowledge there that
she could get through that andthat is a transferable lesson.
So it was great.
(38:15):
It was really interesting justto talk to musicians as well as
kind of how they think aboutabout that.
So can I ask you a question,jerry?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
um, okay, I allow some guests to interview me on
my own purpose.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Okay, yes, all right, fine, don't worry, it's not.
It's not.
It's not like interrogative.
I just so, when you're in yourgroup in this, in the irish um
group, is there a leader?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Not officially.
No, there's no leader becausewe're working off each other all
the time.
It's kind of verboten in theIrish music world to have a
leader in a trad band becauseeverybody brings their own
different instruments, becauseoften we're playing these kind
of.
Some of these things like theAileen Pipes and those type of
(38:59):
instruments are quite unique andit's about finding how to bring
out, give each person theirspace to create the contribution
they can to creating a soundand shaping that sound.
And you know you're exploringall the time to find out what
works.
You know we would take a song.
I've made four albums.
You know you take a song andyou some songs.
You just strip them back andyou, you, you play hardly
(39:20):
anything because that song needsto have more space and
breathing to breathe.
And other songs, you throw thekitchen sink at it because maybe
there's more rhythm in it andyou want to create a big sound
and that.
But you never start off with apreconceived notion of what
should be and that.
But you never start off with apreconceived notion of what
should be.
(39:41):
And one thing I wanted tomention was, in case people
aren't aware, those jazzmusicians are highly talented in
what they do.
They're what a friend of minecalls brilliant at the basics
already.
What they do is they do this ontop, you know.
So it's not like they come upand they don't know how to play.
They know how to play, you know.
So that's a little bit how itworks in my experience, and
Irish traditional musicians loveto sit in a corner of a pub and
just jam with each other.
(40:02):
They just there is.
No, you never recreate thatexperience again.
It's just a unique thing.
It lives in your memorysomewhere and you take it away
forever and you think of thattime.
I sat with that guy and I neverI forgot to ask him his name.
I sat with that guy and I neverI forgot to ask him his name.
I sat with him for two hoursand played music and I forgot
who he was.
So it's the kind of way itworks.
But, by the way, I wanted tomention as well I had Margaret
(40:22):
Heffernan on the program, theshow, a few.
She came on a few months ago andshe's her latest book is called
Embracing Uncertaintyinterviewed musicians and many
other people in the artisticworld because she reckoned that
there was a lesson for businessout there, who tried to predict
everything.
And she said you know who arethe people in professionally who
(40:45):
live with uncertainty as aprofessional.
It's part of their professionalidentity and every time you
walk out on stage, no matter howwell rehearsed you are at that,
you never know what's going tohappen, because the audience is
different every night and youjust don't know how they're
going.
So you respond to that and whenyou're open to that, that's how
you do your performances.
(41:05):
You don't just say we'll playit the same way we played it
last night.
You go and you work with whatthe audience gives you back in
terms of energy and I thought Ithought the conversation I had
with her was fascinating interms of how she'd researched
this and she was putting forwardthis idea.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That totally reinforces the messages from the
two Columbia Business Schoolprofessors that the nature of a
crisis is that it's novel andunexpected and you're
confronting things for the firsttime.
So how do you respond to that?
And the answer is not to kindof centralise and follow a
script.
It's to give people who kind ofare at the front lines and
(41:42):
seeing what's unfolding, theability to react to these new
and challenging circumstances.
So again, one of those messagesthat at the start wasn't
totally sure how would that work, but in its outlines at least
that made sense.
Yeah't totally sure, like howwould that work, but in its
outlines at least that madesense yeah, and that kind of
reinforces.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
That thing that many ceos say is yeah, I, I need to
have the best people in the roomand my job is to bring out the
best in them.
You know, I need the bestfinance people, the best
marketing people and, in a way,the jazz metaphor is a little
bit like that, you know, becauseeach week and each month
there's maybe somethingdifferent on the horizon which
is challenging.
So you can't just say what wedid last month will work again
(42:22):
next month.
You have to be able to say whatdo we need to play?
Using the metaphor again, whatway do we need to play to get
through this crisis or getthrough this next period?
Anyway, coming to the end,andrew, so I've I got a couple,
maybe two, questions to finishwith, based on everything you've
heard.
In boss class, this is a toughone.
What makes a good, what makes agreat boss?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
oh, jerry, don't ask that question.
I mean, I don't think there's a, I don't think there's a really
succinct answer to this, but,um, I guess my, you know, the
prevailing message of almosteverything that we have done on
the podcast series and in thecolumn is that balance is the
(43:07):
key thing.
You are trying to marry somereally, really difficult things
here.
Right, you've got the sort ofneeds of the organisation and
the needs of individuals.
You kind of want to know whatpeople are doing, but you want
to stand back and let them geton with it.
You want to be approachable butyou don't want to be too
friendly, and so all of thosedifficult balancing acts sort of
(43:32):
constitute a good manager.
It's very hard to do and it'salmost impossible, I would say,
to get all of it, all of itright.
But being aware of thosetensions, those things that pull
you in different directions,and trying to trying to navigate
your way through it, I guess, Iguess is the would be my answer
.
It is a sort of balancing act.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So that would probably be your big takeaway,
which was part of my nextquestion.
But I will ask the first partof my next question, which is if
you were to give one shortpiece of advice to new managers
we started talking about thisearly on, about how people are
thrown into management jobs.
What would be some sound adviceyou'd give a young person out
(44:12):
there who now knows that they'regoing to step in or has just
got been given the title manageror supervisor, whatever.
What would you get?
What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Well, firstly, subscribe to the Economist and
listen to Boss Class, and I mean, basically, that's it.
Obviously, there's no, there'sno need to do anything more.
But if you don't do that, thenI would say, actually kind of
being explicit, articulatingthings is really important.
So what is it that you value,how do you like to work, what is
(44:45):
the strategy, what is thecadence at which you're going to
be meeting people?
And you know, literally writingit down.
We're still fans of writinghere, despite doing other things
.
And being being very explicitabout that is a useful, useful
discipline.
It will force you to hone yourthinking and also just just sort
of confront you with all thethings that you have to get get
(45:07):
right from from culture to.
You know the amount of meetingsthat you want to, you want to
run.
So write, write things down,make things explicit.
I think that would be my tip.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
So what's next for you, Andrew?
More Boss Class, more Bartleby,or something completely
different?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
In the foreseeable future, it'll be more of the
same, so we're already workingon plans for a third season,
which would come out early nextyear.
The column continues to runevery single week in the
Economist.
I now write a newsletter forsubscribers as well, so it's a
(45:45):
one-man franchise.
Gerry, it's unstoppableImmediate juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Right, okay.
So how do people get in contactwith this unstoppable immediate
juggernaut?
Is LinkedIn a good place tostart, and I'll put links in the
show notes.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
How do you make contact with a juggernaut?
I mean, that doesn't sound likesomething you should do.
So again, subscribe.
Subscribe to the Economist.
That's the answer to everything, but I can be found on LinkedIn
.
I do accept emails, bartleby ateconomistcom.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Uh, mainly, though, listen to, listen to the podcast
and let us know what you thinkso, as always, andrew, thanks
for sharing your insights, tipsand wisdom with me and my
listeners here today.
Thank you, jerry, that wasreally fun.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yeah, and again, I think the emotional aspects of
change is so important and Ithink, again, it's one of those
areas we kind of perhapsunderestimate the importance of
emotions in terms of how we work, how we perform, how we feel
about organizational change.
So, yeah, as you say,interception is another really
interesting new area and that'sanother reason it drove me to
(46:59):
want to write the third edition,to go and explore it more with
with neuroscientists, and whatit's all about is that ability
to pick up on our that.
We talk about gut feelings andagain, science says there's
something to it.
Um, you know, we do have gutfeelings and and it's about the
ability to pick up accurately onthose feelings and some people
are better at it than others.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
My next guest is workplace neuroscience expert
and author, Hilary Scarlett.
We explore the surprising waysthat brain science can help
leaders guide people throughchange, foster collaboration and
build cultures of psychologicalsafety.
It's a thought provokingconversation you won't want to
miss.
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
(47:43):
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast.
Until next time.
Welcome to Leading People with me, Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Every other week I sit down with leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success, andin between I bring you one
simple thing short episodes thatdeliver practical insights and
(00:35):
tips for immediate use.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Whether you're here for useful tools or
thought-provoking ideas, LeadingPeople is your guide to better
leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
What can you learn about leadership from the
world's best and worst bosses?
Why do managers struggle withdelegation, self-management and
culture building even at the top, and how do we fix it?
To answer these questions andmany more, this week, I'm joined
by Andrew Palmer, senior Editorat the Economist, long-time
writer of the Witty Bartlebycolumn and host of the Boss
(01:16):
Class podcast.
Andrew has spent yearsinterviewing some of the world's
most high-profile leaders andtrying to make sense of why
management is still so difficult.
In this conversation, weexplore what he's learned from
the second season of Boss Class,diving into four big leadership
themes Culture and strategy,self-management, feedback and
(01:41):
the art of letting go.
It's a thoughtful and oftenhumorous take on what really
makes a good boss, so let's diveright in.
Andrew Palmer, welcome toLeading People.
Thanks for having me, gerry.
So now you're a longstandingvoice at the Economist magazine
(02:02):
and for me, you're known for thewitty and wise Bartleby column,
of which I'm a huge fan, andsince, I think, 2023, you're the
host of Boss Class, which is apodcast that's all about the
realities of modern management.
However, before we dive intoyour work and, in particular,
the Boss Class series, let'shelp my listeners get to know
you a little bit better.
(02:23):
And how did you get intojournalism and the Economist and
then come to focus your writingand podcasting on the world of
leadership and management?
And were there any people,moments like epiphany moments or
special assignments along theway that shaped your interest in
these topics and got you towhere you are today?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, you use the word longstanding right at the
the outset, which is code forold.
So I've been at the economistfor uh, well, must be getting on
for 25 years now, possibly evenmore.
Uh, so I've I've cycled throughmultiple jobs in that time.
We have two bits to theeconomist group.
There's a bit called the eiu,which is business to, and then
(03:03):
there's the magazine thateveryone knows and hopefully
loves.
So I've been at the magazinesince 2007,.
Been in multiple different rolesin that time, writing about
everything from banks to LatinAmerica, editing and writing.
The path to management is akind of sort of meandering one.
The way that we operate here isthat people tend to move jobs
(03:27):
quite regularly.
They develop an expertise butthen can move off.
We're sort of all magpies inour mindset.
So management was sort ofalways going to at some point be
in my future, I suspect.
But the reason that I gotinterested in it particularly is
that it is a kind of universalexperience with our subscribers.
(03:49):
So almost everyone who reads uswill have worked in an office
or does so now, and the sort offrustrations, the aspirations,
the experiences are common andit's a very, very rich vein,
therefore, for a column.
It's both entertaining,emotionally fraught and very
(04:14):
important, and all of thosethings together are very, very
rich for a writer.
So what I'm trying to do inthis is do something which is
helpful, I hope, has somepractical usefulness but also is
vaguely entertaining.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So have people stopped inviting you to meetings
at the Economist after allthese observations?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So there's always a kind of moment after a column
comes out when someone will comeinto the office and look at me
in a kind of worried way and saywas that about me?
I have to deny it, but ofcourse it was.
So, yes, it's basicallytrolling people.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Professionally.
That's what.
If you get work like that, whynot take it?
You know Well, exactly, yeah,and you are.
Before we get into boss class.
You are famous for something todo with a lettuce, isn't that
right?
Let us hear about that.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Oh, nice, nice, you can't beat a lettuce pun.
Okay, you've really done yourresearch.
Yeah, so I used to be theBritain editor.
Liz Truss, famously, ouringlorious and very short-lived
prime minister, was famouslycompared to a lettuce and the
genesis of that was a leaderthat I wrote.
(05:28):
And then some geniuses at theDaily Star saw that comparison
and set up the webcam which hadher and the lettuce juxtaposed
for a few days to see who wouldlast longer.
So I played some small part ina meme which is a really odd,
odd experience.
I wrote the column and thenforgot about it.
It was a leader actually wrote,wrote the leader, um had to do
(05:49):
something else, and then it sortof it went.
It went viral very, veryquickly, um, which is kind of an
odd experience for someone likeme.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, so I guess that's how the whole world of
influencers work.
You know, if you try too hardyou don't get there, and then
all of a sudden a lettuceopportunity comes along and a
prime minister who probablyshould be listening to should
have been listening to bossclass anyway probably to some of
the lessons that she might havemight have gleaned from the
(06:19):
people that you talked to.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I went to a play which was about Truss's
premiership.
It was a sort of fringe playand a sort of one-woman show and
there's a point in it where thelettuce comes out and the
character basically says, youknow, made up by some sort of
ignorant fool at the Economist,and I was sort of sitting there
(06:41):
in anonymity but feeling vaguelyuncomfortable about about the
whole thing.
So it's I'm I'm comfortable notto not to be too well known for
it not to be too well known forit.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Okay, so you talked about, uh, research.
Um, there, I like to researchmy guests as much as I can,
because then at least I have anidea what they're talking about.
Um, and one of the things thatalways impresses me about Boss
Class is the depth of researchthat seems to go into creating
the series.
And I listened to season one.
(07:13):
I remember listening to it.
Actually, I was passing throughDubai at the time and I was on
a treadmill and I was listeningto somebody talking about hiring
and how to get that right and Iwas quite hooked.
I heard you walking through somesort of was it a trail in
Norway or somewhere?
You were doing some sort ofoutward bound somewhere in the
Scandinavia.
So it's like all this wascoming together and and it was
(07:35):
full of fascinatingconversations.
And season two is shaping up aswe're.
As we're recording this, you'repartway through the release of
season two shaping up in thesame way.
Just for the benefit of mylisteners, who may not know what
we're talking about yet.
Who is this podcast for and whydid you decide to create a
second season?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Well, public demand was just overwhelming, gerry.
That was really the reason.
So the idea of the podcast ishow to be a good manager.
That is the kind of straplinefor it.
So it's basically translatingsome of the personality of the
column, but using the advantagesof audio in service of that
(08:14):
same mission.
So you know, very big picture,lots of people go into
management without any kind oftraining.
Lots of people are selected forpositions as managers on the
basis of being good at somethingelse.
I'm sure that you know a lot ofyour conversations kind of
reflect that truth.
So a whole universe of peoplewho are in positions of
(08:36):
authority and don't quite knowwhat to do or are being managed
by people who plainly don't knowwhat to do, and that felt like
a very big opportunity.
So each of the podcast episodesand you're right, we're into the
second season now there aredifferent formats we use, but
the spine of it is we havethematic episodes, we take a
topic hiring in the first seasonyou mentioned.
(08:58):
In this season we're doingthings like how to negotiate,
how to manage a crisis, how topresent and use the very
privileged access that we haveat the Economist and the very
talented people we have on thepodcast team to hopefully put
together something which coheresas a narrative and ends up with
something practical at the endof it.
(09:18):
So as a kind of as a resourcefor people who want to know how
to manage better in theworkplace.
That's our goal.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So we're going to dive into that a little bit more
in a minute.
I think what's nice about it isthis juxtaposing of the kind of
really nicely produced episodesof soundbites and you
commenting on that, and then weget to the in-depth
conversations where they arereally fascinating to listen to.
So I would encourage anybodyout there who hasn't yet
(09:47):
discovered Boss Class and wholikes to listen to podcasts
obviously you do, because youwouldn't be listening to this so
please go out there and checkit out and take out whatever
subscriptions on offer at thetime, because I think lots of
great stuff to discover there.
So you talked about fourbuckets or four themes that kind
of pervade the current season.
(10:08):
Let's maybe start to unpacksome of that.
I mean, obviously I've only hadthe chance to listen to some of
the interviews that you've doneand some of the content and
that, and so I'll do my best tointeract with that.
But you talked about managers asamplifiers of culture and
strategy, and I guess there'sthat famous quote from Peter
Drucker that said that famouslysaid culture eats strategy for
(10:30):
breakfast.
And in terms of implementing astrategy, that probably still
holds true because you know,whatever happens, it's cut down
to people's behavior.
So what did you discover abouttranslating strategy into
day-to-day behavior?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
on leading people.
The goal is to bring youcutting-edge thought leadership
from many of the leadingthinkers and practitioners in
leadership today.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
(11:11):
link with friends, family andcolleagues, and stay informed by
joining our leading peopleLinkedIn community of HR leaders
and talent professionals.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah.
So what I was trying to do isthink about not so much the
thematic buckets that we havefor each episode, but what are
the themes that run across theseries as a whole.
And one of them was this sortof very obvious conundrum that
bosses face, particularly ifyou're right at the top of a big
organisation, which is youcan't be everywhere.
So how do you amplify yourmessage, how do you transmit a
(11:47):
set of behaviours or values, aculture in other words, given
that you're one person upagainst multiple locations or
many, many people in a company,and so, thinking about that, you
sort of little things come outfrom different, different
episodes.
So, you know, most obviouslypeople repeat themselves an
awful lot, and just beingwilling to repeat yourself over
(12:11):
and over again seems like a veryunappreciated skill of a leader
.
So once you know what yourstrategy is, what you're trying
to do, you just have to say itover and over and over again.
The second thing is using, aswell as words, objects.
So we talked to Michelle Goss,who's the boss of Levi's, and
one of the things that in ourconversation we talked about was
(12:34):
her use of an object to conveya strategy.
So she likes to talk about atLevi's, the denim company, using
the microscope and thetelescope.
And so for a retailer, you usethe microscope to look at real
world data that's coming throughthe stores, and then for the
telescope, you're looking on thehorizon for trends that are
(12:56):
coming and that's a sort ofreasonably memorable idea.
But what she's done is createthese key rings.
She's had these key rings made.
She's given them to 250 of hersenior leadership.
It is, you know, microscope onone end, telescope on the other.
So it's a sort of clunkingmetaphor.
(13:18):
It's not subtle but it is asort of way of kind of her being
there and her voice being inpeople's minds as they go about
their job.
But I think probably the mostsystematic example that we spoke
to and this will be in theculture episode that's coming
out a couple of weeks after werecord this is with a medical
(13:40):
devices company called Striker,whose boss is called Kevin Lobo,
and he and the company as awhole have this very methodical
way of translating a culture andamplifying a message in
everything that they do.
So their culture is theydescribe it as high performance
(14:00):
and high humility, prettyhard-nosed but also not tolerant
of egos.
And again, I think theinteresting thing there is just
how systematic they are.
So there's the missionstatement, there is an
organisational lever.
So when a division gets too bigat Stryker, they basically chop
(14:22):
it in half, and the idea thenis that you're back to being an
underdog and you've got to kindof scramble and be hungry in
order to regain a top spot.
Uh, there are clearly hiringprocesses that look for a
particular type of person.
Uh, there are, um, there arethe use of Clifton strengths.
I'm sure you know this, jerry,do you have you come across this
(14:43):
in your?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
yeah so um pretty well read, yes.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Okay, I bet you, I bet Of course you are, of course
you are.
But, um, the this, this isthere, it is.
I mean cactuses and books, Ican see, I can see it all.
Um, but that, so, uh, they usethat language as a common
language in the organization sothat everyone sort of speaks a
striker language.
Everyone has a sense of theirtop five strengths, is pinned to
(15:07):
their cubicles.
They all kind of have this geland you can sort of go through
other things.
You know if you're, if you hityour, if you're 99.9% of the way
to your target, you've missedyour budget, that kind of thing.
So practices that also enforcethis kind of sense of what
matters to Stryker.
(15:27):
I think what came across fromthat was, just once you start to
think about different leversfor amplifying a message, you
realise there are very many ofthem, but lots of leaders and
organisations don't thinksystematically about them, they
don't sort of categorise them,they don't think about how they
should operate each of them.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
This was a good, I think, worked example of someone
projecting themselves verysystematically in multiple
channels through a globalorganization and the other area
I I even from the earlierepisodes so far have been this
how companies go about theinnovation part, which also you
(16:07):
know.
I think you talk to lego andyou talk to other organizations
about how they and you had theguys with the um in-vehicle
self-driving cars and that, howthey they also.
I guess that's a cultural thing, to get people to think in a
different way yes, it's cultural, it's mindset.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I mean, what we tried to do in the innovation episode
was counter the idea thatinnovation involves people
sitting around on beanbags orplaying table tennis or posting
things on sticky notes on onwalls, that it is a kind of
grinding and nonlinear process.
(16:48):
So Wave, which is thatself-driving car company that
you mentioned, that's aneight-year journey based on an
idea that was once an outlier inthe industry and has become
progressively more orthodox, anda combination of iterating and
innovating.
So a portfolio approach whereyou have some people in the
(17:10):
company coming up with new ideasand going after them in a small
scale at first and thenbuilding up and, in the other
parts of the company, sort ofiterating incrementally on
things where they know they needto make progress.
So I think that the innovationmessage is that this is not the
kind of classic genius has aserendipitous idea and
(17:32):
everything is great.
It's much more complicated,takes time, sustained effort and
lots and lots of differentpeople working on lots and lots
of different things.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, and the neuroscience actually shows that
there are very few aha momentsin innovation.
They are moments that arearrived at after intensive
thinking and experimenting.
Yes, the moments come whenyou're least expecting, perhaps
when you're not focused on them.
But aha moments are rare bythemselves.
They're always the product of alot of deep thinking and a lot
(18:05):
of exploration beforehand.
I believe, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yeah, totally right, and one of the messages of an
interview we do with the boss ofCorning Corning is a glass
company.
It makes the coverings on yoursmartphone, the one that you've
got with you right now is thatyou cannot time the market for
innovation.
What you can do is work in adirection where you can be
(18:32):
reasonably confident that atsome point it will pay off.
So in their instance, they'relooking at making glass stronger
and more damage resistant, andat some point that is going to
pay off.
So the iPhone glass was basedon compositions which were
actually developed in the 1960sto create thickened windscreens
(18:53):
for cars.
That didn't work very well,because you don't actually want
people colliding with thickenedwindscreens.
It turns out, but thatcomposition is very useful at
the point when Steve Jobs comesalong and says you know, have
you got anything which mightwork for me?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah.
So I have a question before weleave the sort of theme of
culture.
I think you had the privilegeof visiting a lot of these
people in their buildings, ifI'm not mistaken.
Today it's not so easy, but youknow, I've always loved to go
to clients that I've worked withto actually absorb what's going
(19:29):
on.
When you went to those placeswas what you were hearing
palpable in the, just in thecorridors and just moving around
those buildings, or were thereany people in those buildings?
Maybe that's?
I should have asked you thatfirst.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, no, there are.
There are people in buildings.
I mean, of course, if you'regoing in as a journalist, then
people are going to behave in aslightly different way.
So there's always a bit of afilter and some things are not
signals at all.
So almost every place you go towill have words written on
walls which have nice abstractnouns that don't mean much.
So that's not a signal.
(20:06):
So that's not a signal.
But people, you know a CEO whowill kind of come and meet you
or is sort of operating in anopen plan office.
We went to Novo Nordisk and theCEO there was kind of sitting
in an actually standing in anopen plan office, and that's a
bit of a signal.
You know, if you're going totalk about openness and
(20:27):
collaboration but you're buriedin a corner office and you can't
get there except through aprivate lift, then that's a bit
of dissonance.
So there are some things thatyou can tell where and this
(20:47):
takes us onto the theme of kindof you know, feedback coming up
and towards bosses, but wheretheir philosophy was being lived
in front of our eyes you couldactually see the sort of idea of
continuous improvement, theidea of managers going out and
talking directly to theirmembers, as they call them.
That was going on and it wasimpossible to simulate that that
(21:11):
was embedded in the way thatthey operated.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
One of the key themes of this podcast is how to bring
out the best in yourself andothers.
So getting other people tofollow a strategy to shape a
culture is one thing.
One of the early episodes isthis fantastic self-deprecation
you did when you went topresentation, public speaking
training, where you sort of withyour knees and your jaw and
(21:39):
everything else and the threadcoming out of your head and
everything.
But there was a very importantmessage.
There wasn't there about thewhole aspect of how to manage
yourself and how to do this in.
You know, because a lot ofleaders have to do it.
It's required of them to beable to stand up in front of
other people but also walk theirtalk in that way, so they're
(22:00):
role models for what they expectother people to do.
What sorts of things did youlearn as you had these
conversations about that?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So presenting is really interesting actually,
because I spent a day with RADA,which is the famous acting
school in London, and they havean arm which does this
presentation coaching forexecutives and I don't enjoy it
myself.
I'm not good at it's sort ofspending a bit of time was very
(22:32):
useful in terms of just takingme out of myself and getting a
few techniques in terms of selfthings that I was doing wrong.
So you know, you lock yourknees and you're you're shot.
It's just like a disaster andposture and all of that, that
kind of stuff.
But probably the most importantthing that I heard on that day
was the coach used this phraseturn selfie view off.
(22:58):
So, rather than thinking onlyabout yourself and how you get
through a presentation, youthink about the audience, what
it is that you are trying to getacross to them, what emotion
you are trying to evoke in them.
So that was a kind of usefulframing device a really obvious
one, but a useful one for sortof thinking differently about
(23:20):
what it is that you're doing andwhat you're trying to project.
And I think that is a kind ofhabit of mind that typifies
people who are really good atleading.
They kind of know what it isthat they have to do and they
know how they come across andthey think about it very, very
intentionally.
So in the first season I'mreminded of a conversation we
(23:43):
had with Emma Walmsley, who'sthe CEO of GSK big drugs firm,
who kind of just talked veryopenly about like I know that my
interactions with people aregoing to sort of determine their
day.
Like if I'm stroppy or grumpyor kind of off with them then
it's going to ruin their day andpossibly their week.
(24:04):
So sort of putting on that CEOcloak and mask and set of
behaviours was very consciouslydone and I think some bosses
don't think about that at alland others really do spend quite
a lot of time thinking aboutthat and it comes across.
Another example of season oneis an executive called Claire
(24:25):
Hughes-Johnson who writes amanual about how she likes to
work and she gives it.
Have you got the book?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yes, it's a big chunky book.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
It is chunky.
It is chunky but it's verypractical.
It is a manual.
Actually it's like a referencebook, but she writes this
document which is kind ofworking with Claire is what it's
called, and it's basically akind of.
This is how I like to operate.
You know, I like this kind ofdata to be given to me in this
form.
I will take normally take, youknow, a couple of days to digest
(24:59):
information before making adecision.
So if you want something faster, you need to come and bug me,
and that level of sort ofovertly articulating what it is
that you are like to work withand what your own preferences
are is not commonly done but isvery useful in sort of holding a
mirror up to yourself and thenalso kind of training people
(25:20):
around you on kind of.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
These are the norms and the preferences you're
listening to leading people withme jerry marais.
My guest this week is andrewpalmer, senior editor at the
economist and host of the bossclass podcast.
Coming up, we explorenegotiation, decision making and
(25:45):
how to navigate.
A Another area that you coveredwhere turning selfie view off
is quite useful, because I teachit as well is negotiations
being able to put yourself inthe shoes of the people that
you're negotiating with, and Ithink was it the guys, which was
(26:05):
the guys who said listen,listen, listen and then listen,
listen, listen when you'renegotiating.
I find actually I personallyfind that to be one of the most
useful pieces of advice youcould give anybody.
Tell us a bit about thatexperience.
You went to the Diamond area inNew York.
You talked to negotiators there.
(26:28):
You talked to people teachingat Harvard.
You talked to Wendy Shermanabout the Iran deal, etc.
Wendy Sherman about the Irandeal, etc.
What emerged from thoseconversations?
Where, if you could synthesizethem, what were some of the
things that you took away?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
and said well, so we started from a position of great
ignorance, and when I say we, Imean I, and that's always a
useful starting point.
So we'd set it up that episodeby going to the Diamond District
.
It's basically the place wheremost diamonds come into America.
It's it's an extremely odd.
It's just one street in MidtownManhattan.
(27:06):
It's a kind of weird process ofalmost going back in time, like
everyone looks like they'vecome from Starsky and Hutch.
There's another reference from alongstanding kind of person,
and everyone has got dealmakingin their blood.
So you sort of feel like you'rea little kind of you're
defenseless.
At some point you're going toend up buying something that you
(27:28):
don't want and spending a lotof money.
So that's how we set theepisode up and then talk to a
variety of people.
So, as you say, jim Sabinius ofHarvard, but also people who
have done negotiating for aliving.
Wendy Sherman negotiated theIran nuclear deal, raffaella
Pimenta is a football agent whorepresents Erling Haaland, among
other people.
(27:48):
So people who live and breathethis, and their advice I think
can be summarized as saying that, although you might sort of
conceptualize negotiating asthat moment of the transaction,
when you're basically talkingabout price, it feels like a
zero-sum game.
It's much richer than that, andif you're teaching this, you
(28:19):
will.
You will, I'm sure, be sayingsomething, something similar
that a lot of it is in the setup, that it is sort of knowing
what people want, your own sideincluded.
What are your walkaway points?
Where is a negotiatingnegotiation happening?
How are you building allianceswith people who should be on
your side and, potentially,those who are not?
So?
If you listen to the extendedinterview with Wendy Sherman,
(28:40):
for example, a lot of it is thedrama of being in a hotel with
the Iranians and trying to getit across the finishing line,
but a lot of it is about how doyou win around these multiple
partners that the US had at thetime.
How do you win around peoplewithin the American political
system?
I mean, things have obviouslychanged a lot there now, but
(29:00):
it's that stuff that happensaway from the table, in the
language of the episode, thatreally determines success once
you get there.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, she gives that great example.
We won't explore it further,but the one about the
grandchildren and theconversation that finding
something human about the otherpeople was something that she
she emphasized quite a bit, eventhough she realized that I
think you don't necessarilyalways trust them or love them
and you can still see them ashuman beings doing their job.
I think that's.
(29:29):
That was an important, that'ssomething I got out of it anyway
, when she was explaining yeah,there was a.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
there's another example where um you, you might,
you might struggle even more tosummon up empathy.
We talked to Curtis Minder,who's a ransomware negotiator.
At the point where the cyberattack has happened and a firm
has decided they have no choicebut to pay, he's the person who
gets pulled in to negotiate onthe dark web with criminal
(29:56):
organizations to recover data.
And it's very hard to feelempathy for those people.
But he's definitely saying youknow, you must not treat them as
, as criminals.
You need to kind of somehow,you know, make them feel
respected, find some ground onwhich you can operate as
(30:20):
negotiators, okay.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And before we move on to another theme, I just want
to know how your wife took itwhen you didn't buy her that
ring.
Because did she say, where'sthat diamond ring?
You sold, the guy sold you.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I'm basically trying to get her not to listen
to that episode.
So you know, that's just.
I'm sort of like skipping thatone.
So you know, I, when shelistens to your podcast, jerry,
the game is up.
The game is up.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Okay, so some of the other themes that you, you, you,
you touch on is the whole areaof, like, decision-making, um,
and what?
What came out of thoseconversations around decision
making?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
yeah, so, um, it's.
It's one of the defining actsof a manager, one of the things
that makes organizations run,and it's amazing how bad humans
are at it for for variousreasons.
So I'm just, as as we speak, inthe process of writing the
column based on the episode ondecision-making and there's just
some really fun stuff aroundhow kind of stupid humans are
(31:25):
and how liable they are to makebad decisions.
So you know, people will bidstocks higher when it's sunny,
and the more sunny it is, themore they're willing to pay.
And if you have a good which ispackaged in plastic but then
wrap paper around it completelyunnecessary, extraneous paper
(31:48):
people will pay more for itbecause they think it's
environmentally sustainable.
So I mean, basically, it's awonder that humans have
succeeded at all.
So you're kind of facing thatproblem how do you make good
decisions?
And the episodes' messages kindof boil down to given that
individuals are susceptible tothese kind of biases and flaws
(32:11):
in thinking, it's up toorganizations to put in place
processes that lead to betteroutcomes.
One of the first questions thatyou have to ask is what kind of
decision is it?
So this is the Amazon languagearound one-way doors and two-way
doors.
A one-way door is a decisionthat's costly.
To reverse Two-way door, youcan go back reasonably easily
(32:36):
and so deciding what theconsequences of failure are are
they big, are they small?
And then calibrating speed tothat is really important.
And then the next question hasgone up who is taking the
decision?
And clarity about that is oftenmissing in organizations and is
a cause of delay andfrustration.
And so another of theorganizations and is a cause of
(32:59):
delay and frustration.
And so another of the episodeswe did and interviews we did was
with Supercell.
Are you a big mobile gamesplayer, jerry?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
No, I'm not, but I have a daughter working in the
industry, so I do hear aboutonline games and stuff from her.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Okay, so Supercell makes makes clash of clans and
heyday and other titles that I'mnot familiar with.
But we went to supercell, whichmakes these things very
successful, gaming company inhelsinki which has a very
radical way of thinking aboutautonomy and games.
Teams there are basicallyempowered to take decisions that
(33:35):
in other organizations would beunthinkable, including a
decision to kill a game.
So you can have teams that areworking on these things for
years sometimes, but if theydon't think it's going to work,
then they are able on their ownto basically say we're done, and
they do do that.
Their incentives, you'd think,would be perhaps not to do that,
(33:55):
but they do do that.
You know their incentives,you'd think would be perhaps not
to do that, but they do do that.
So the boss there isself-described the least
powerful CEO in the world, aFinn called Ilka Parnanen.
And you know autonomy peopleare comfortable with, they're
(34:17):
already sort of some way toanswering that second question.
I mean a long way.
Actually, it's almost thedefining part of their culture.
So if you know how to parse adecision into ones that matter
and ones that matter less, ifyou know who's taking the
decision and then if you have aprocess which gets rid of some
of those cognitive biases thatwe talked about earlier, then
(34:39):
you're, in very broad terms, along way towards having a better
outcome yeah, and I think I'mjust going to briefly reflect
what michelle gas said aboutdata versus instinct, and that's
her microscope telescope, kindof that.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You know, whilst data is useful and probably a lot of
decisions need data, you stillneed that sense of what the data
is telling you totally yeah,and instinct as well.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So she used to work at starbucks.
She was the person behind um,the pumpkin spice latte, uh, and
although it's not a drink I'vetried, it is clearly, you know,
civilizationally very important.
And at the point that they werethinking about that, consumers
did not like the idea of like apumpkin in their coffee,
(35:26):
reasonably enough.
It sounds disgusting.
But within Starbucks they weretesting this thing, felt like it
was going to be great and,importantly, also sort of asked
that, asked that question howbad would it be if it failed and
rolled it out.
And it's now a very importantpart of popular culture.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
One of my favourite episodes so far is the jazz
improv.
I'm a musician myself, but I'ma musician myself.
It's guided me in so manythings I've done where you, I
mean.
I play Irish traditional music,but it has a similar kind of
approach.
Nobody's ever playing the samenotes twice.
We're all in the same key, kindof playing the same melody.
(36:09):
Jazz musicians are really goodat this.
They're incrediblysophisticated at working off a
sort of some sort of standardbut then allowing things to
happen.
Tell our list, tell mylisteners a little bit about
that experience of talking to itwas it was a famous jazz
musician and a professor.
Is that right?
Who studies this stuff?
Isn't that what you did?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yes, that's right.
So this in our episode ofcrisis management we start off
talking to two, two academics,but one of them is a very
accomplished jazz musician, atrombonist in New York, who have
worked together for almost twodecades to kind of teach the
lessons of jazz for crisismanagement, of skepticism that
(36:52):
this would work.
But they were very persuasive,partly by not over claiming but
partly by playing, playingmusical examples that actually
brought home their messages thatthere was something in the kind
of improvisational butpracticed culture of jazz that
one could learn from.
(37:12):
And the episode features somegreat stuff.
But the like, the moment whichstands out to me is they play
this recording of EllaFitzgerald in a Berlin nightclub
singing Mac the Knife, and sheforgets the lyrics and just
starts improvising and sheliterally is sort of singing
what are the words?
(37:32):
But does so in such a kind ofamazingly smooth, um way that
you kind of don't notice andwhen you do notice it's nothing
but delightful.
Uh, and the one of the lessonsof that is that by spending
enough time planning, having areservoir of of knowledge, um
(37:53):
and um in, in their words, kindof values, that you can kind of
find a way to cope even withvery novel situations.
So it's not a question ofhaving really detailed
contingency plans for anyoutcome, but there was enough of
a sort of hinterland and astore of knowledge there that
she could get through that andthat is a transferable lesson.
So it was great.
(38:15):
It was really interesting justto talk to musicians as well as
kind of how they think aboutabout that.
So can I ask you a question,jerry?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
um, okay, I allow some guests to interview me on
my own purpose.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Okay, yes, all right, fine, don't worry, it's not.
It's not.
It's not like interrogative.
I just so, when you're in yourgroup in this, in the irish um
group, is there a leader?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Not officially.
No, there's no leader becausewe're working off each other all
the time.
It's kind of verboten in theIrish music world to have a
leader in a trad band becauseeverybody brings their own
different instruments, becauseoften we're playing these kind
of.
Some of these things like theAileen Pipes and those type of
(38:59):
instruments are quite unique andit's about finding how to bring
out, give each person theirspace to create the contribution
they can to creating a soundand shaping that sound.
And you know you're exploringall the time to find out what
works.
You know we would take a song.
I've made four albums.
You know you take a song andyou some songs.
You just strip them back andyou, you, you play hardly
(39:20):
anything because that song needsto have more space and
breathing to breathe.
And other songs, you throw thekitchen sink at it because maybe
there's more rhythm in it andyou want to create a big sound
and that.
But you never start off with apreconceived notion of what
should be and that.
But you never start off with apreconceived notion of what
should be.
(39:41):
And one thing I wanted tomention was, in case people
aren't aware, those jazzmusicians are highly talented in
what they do.
They're what a friend of minecalls brilliant at the basics
already.
What they do is they do this ontop, you know.
So it's not like they come upand they don't know how to play.
They know how to play, you know.
So that's a little bit how itworks in my experience, and
Irish traditional musicians loveto sit in a corner of a pub and
just jam with each other.
(40:02):
They just there is.
No, you never recreate thatexperience again.
It's just a unique thing.
It lives in your memorysomewhere and you take it away
forever and you think of thattime.
I sat with that guy and I neverI forgot to ask him his name.
I sat with that guy and I neverI forgot to ask him his name.
I sat with him for two hoursand played music and I forgot
who he was.
So it's the kind of way itworks.
But, by the way, I wanted tomention as well I had Margaret
(40:22):
Heffernan on the program, theshow, a few.
She came on a few months ago andshe's her latest book is called
Embracing Uncertaintyinterviewed musicians and many
other people in the artisticworld because she reckoned that
there was a lesson for businessout there, who tried to predict
everything.
And she said you know who arethe people in professionally who
(40:45):
live with uncertainty as aprofessional.
It's part of their professionalidentity and every time you
walk out on stage, no matter howwell rehearsed you are at that,
you never know what's going tohappen, because the audience is
different every night and youjust don't know how they're
going.
So you respond to that and whenyou're open to that, that's how
you do your performances.
(41:05):
You don't just say we'll playit the same way we played it
last night.
You go and you work with whatthe audience gives you back in
terms of energy and I thought Ithought the conversation I had
with her was fascinating interms of how she'd researched
this and she was putting forwardthis idea.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That totally reinforces the messages from the
two Columbia Business Schoolprofessors that the nature of a
crisis is that it's novel andunexpected and you're
confronting things for the firsttime.
So how do you respond to that?
And the answer is not to kindof centralise and follow a
script.
It's to give people who kind ofare at the front lines and
(41:42):
seeing what's unfolding, theability to react to these new
and challenging circumstances.
So again, one of those messagesthat at the start wasn't
totally sure how would that work, but in its outlines at least
that made sense.
Yeah't totally sure, like howwould that work, but in its
outlines at least that madesense yeah, and that kind of
reinforces.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
That thing that many ceos say is yeah, I, I need to
have the best people in the roomand my job is to bring out the
best in them.
You know, I need the bestfinance people, the best
marketing people and, in a way,the jazz metaphor is a little
bit like that, you know, becauseeach week and each month
there's maybe somethingdifferent on the horizon which
is challenging.
So you can't just say what wedid last month will work again
(42:22):
next month.
You have to be able to say whatdo we need to play?
Using the metaphor again, whatway do we need to play to get
through this crisis or getthrough this next period?
Anyway, coming to the end,andrew, so I've I got a couple,
maybe two, questions to finishwith, based on everything you've
heard.
In boss class, this is a toughone.
What makes a good, what makes agreat boss?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
oh, jerry, don't ask that question.
I mean, I don't think there's a, I don't think there's a really
succinct answer to this, but,um, I guess my, you know, the
prevailing message of almosteverything that we have done on
the podcast series and in thecolumn is that balance is the
(43:07):
key thing.
You are trying to marry somereally, really difficult things
here.
Right, you've got the sort ofneeds of the organisation and
the needs of individuals.
You kind of want to know whatpeople are doing, but you want
to stand back and let them geton with it.
You want to be approachable butyou don't want to be too
friendly, and so all of thosedifficult balancing acts sort of
(43:32):
constitute a good manager.
It's very hard to do and it'salmost impossible, I would say,
to get all of it, all of itright.
But being aware of thosetensions, those things that pull
you in different directions,and trying to trying to navigate
your way through it, I guess, Iguess is the would be my answer
.
It is a sort of balancing act.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So that would probably be your big takeaway,
which was part of my nextquestion.
But I will ask the first partof my next question, which is if
you were to give one shortpiece of advice to new managers
we started talking about thisearly on, about how people are
thrown into management jobs.
What would be some sound adviceyou'd give a young person out
(44:12):
there who now knows that they'regoing to step in or has just
got been given the title manageror supervisor, whatever.
What would you get?
What would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Well, firstly, subscribe to the Economist and
listen to Boss Class, and I mean, basically, that's it.
Obviously, there's no, there'sno need to do anything more.
But if you don't do that, thenI would say, actually kind of
being explicit, articulatingthings is really important.
So what is it that you value,how do you like to work, what is
(44:45):
the strategy, what is thecadence at which you're going to
be meeting people?
And you know, literally writingit down.
We're still fans of writinghere, despite doing other things
.
And being being very explicitabout that is a useful, useful
discipline.
It will force you to hone yourthinking and also just just sort
of confront you with all thethings that you have to get get
(45:07):
right from from culture to.
You know the amount of meetingsthat you want to, you want to
run.
So write, write things down,make things explicit.
I think that would be my tip.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
So what's next for you, Andrew?
More Boss Class, more Bartleby,or something completely
different?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
In the foreseeable future, it'll be more of the
same, so we're already workingon plans for a third season,
which would come out early nextyear.
The column continues to runevery single week in the
Economist.
I now write a newsletter forsubscribers as well, so it's a
(45:45):
one-man franchise.
Gerry, it's unstoppableImmediate juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Right, okay.
So how do people get in contactwith this unstoppable immediate
juggernaut?
Is LinkedIn a good place tostart, and I'll put links in the
show notes.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
How do you make contact with a juggernaut?
I mean, that doesn't sound likesomething you should do.
So again, subscribe.
Subscribe to the Economist.
That's the answer to everything, but I can be found on LinkedIn
.
I do accept emails, bartleby ateconomistcom.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Uh, mainly, though, listen to, listen to the podcast
and let us know what you thinkso, as always, andrew, thanks
for sharing your insights, tipsand wisdom with me and my
listeners here today.
Thank you, jerry, that wasreally fun.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yeah, and again, I think the emotional aspects of
change is so important and Ithink, again, it's one of those
areas we kind of perhapsunderestimate the importance of
emotions in terms of how we work, how we perform, how we feel
about organizational change.
So, yeah, as you say,interception is another really
interesting new area and that'sanother reason it drove me to
(46:59):
want to write the third edition,to go and explore it more with
with neuroscientists, and whatit's all about is that ability
to pick up on our that.
We talk about gut feelings andagain, science says there's
something to it.
Um, you know, we do have gutfeelings and and it's about the
ability to pick up accurately onthose feelings and some people
are better at it than others.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
My next guest is workplace neuroscience expert
and author, Hilary Scarlett.
We explore the surprising waysthat brain science can help
leaders guide people throughchange, foster collaboration and
build cultures of psychologicalsafety.
It's a thought provokingconversation you won't want to
miss.
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
(47:43):
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast.
Until next time.
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