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February 28, 2025 53 mins

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In this episode…

We challenge traditional views of midlife and explore how this phase can be a powerful transition for leaders. 

Aneace Haddad, a former tech CEO and an executive coach with extensive experience, invites listeners to rethink what it means to lead in the second half of life. He examines the cognitive shifts that occur as people enter their 40s and beyond, revealing that this period often marks the emergence of unique leadership superpowers that younger leaders may not yet possess. 

Through engaging storytelling and practical advice, Aneace illustrates how leaders in midlife can embrace ambiguity and let go of the need for the granular detail-oriented thinking that served them well in their youth. 

Instead, he emphasizes the importance of big-picture strategic thinking, collaboration, and fostering a supportive environment where every team member can thrive. 

Aneace's insights shine a light on the positives of aging, reframing the concept of resilience into a joyful and rejuvenating process.

Listeners looking to enhance their leadership approach will find this episode rich in resources and inspiration, encouraging personal reflection and growth. 

Whether you are in midlife or simply interested in understanding leadership evolution, Aneace's wisdom will resonate with anyone striving to improve their impact in the workplace. 

Curious?

Join us in embracing the beauty of growth at any age, and let’s celebrate the incredible potential that emerges through experience.

Remember to visit Aneace.com to connect with Aneace and explore his work!

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me, gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations

(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use.
Whether you're here for usefultools or thought-provoking ideas
, leading People is your guideto better leadership.

(00:44):
Thought-provoking ideas LeadingPeople is your guide to better
leadership.
What if midlife wasn't aboutdecline, but the emergence of
new leadership superpowers?
In this episode of LeadingPeople, anis Haddad, executive

(01:08):
coach and author of SoaringBeyond Midlife, shares why our
leadership potential evolves aswe age.
He explains why embracingambiguity, letting go of
unnecessary details and trustingemerging strengths can make you
an even more effective leader.
In this episode, we'll discoverwhy leaders over 40 develop new
cognitive strengths thatyounger leaders don't yet have.

(01:29):
How to transition from detailed, focused leadership to big
picture strategic thinking, andwhy resilience isn't enough, and
how to reframe it for thesecond half of life.
And how to reframe it for thesecond half of life If you're in
midlife, or coaching, mentoringor managing leaders who are, or

(01:50):
even a young leader who'scurious about what's ahead of
you, then this conversation isone you won't want to miss, ani.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Saddad, welcome to Leading People.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Thanks, gerry.
Wonderful being here.
So, although you're originallyfrom the US, you're also the
former CEO of a tech company inFrance, and today you're working
as an executive coach based inSingapore.
So it's quite a blend there,not just in terms of
professional background, but interms of geography.

(02:26):
We've kind of covered the world, I think, in that one, and
you've recently written yoursecond book, which we'll get to
shortly, but first so mylisteners can get to know you a
little bit better, how did youget here?
Was there a person placed, anevent or an epiphany moment that
sort of stood out on yourjourney to where you are today?

(02:46):
And why did you choose yourcurrent career path?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Okay, wow, that's a big question.
Let me see how I can boil thatdown.
I had, so I built a paymentsoftware company in the South of
France, where I was living atthe time, grew it to 30
countries.
I had a big team in Singapore,so I was traveling to Singapore

(03:12):
very often and we sold thecompany in 2007, just before the
global financial crisis andjust before my own midlife
crisis, because I was 47 when Isold it and I thought I was
going to be a serialentrepreneur because I thought I
really didn't have.
I was a programmer originally,so I'm an old techie, and I

(03:37):
found through that process whichis the first book I wrote, the
Eagle that Drank HummingbirdNectar a couple of years ago I
found through that process thatwhat I was most proud of wasn't
the technology, the patents thatI'd filed and all that.
It was the people.
So people that used to workwith me that can go on and

(03:59):
become CEOs, ctos, cfos of othercompanies.
I found that was much morefulfilling than the technology.
So I realized as a programmer,it was a weird thing to realize
that I liked people more thancomputers, and so that sent me
in a new direction, and by thetime I was 50, I had

(04:21):
transitioned into mentoring,coaching, and over the last 15
years that's all I do.
Now I just specialize withC-suites, the CEO and the top
team coaching the team.
So that's in a nutshell, butthe actual story is enough to
fill that novel that I wrote acouple years ago.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay, I'm going to come back to that little
epiphany around the peopleversus computer thing because I
know you mentioned it in thebook.
I'm going to come back to it abit later.
So stay tuned everyone, becausewe're going to explore that and
unpack it.
So let's get to the book, thenew one.
Introduce it please.

(05:03):
What's it called?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
the new one, uh, for introduce it please.
What's it called?
Soaring Beyond Midlife.
That's the title.
Uh, the subtitle is thesurprisingly natural emergence
of leadership superpowers inlife's second half that just
came out a few months ago.

(05:27):
Okay, so I had been noticing,gradually, over the years, I've
been noticing a qualitativeshift in the conversations I was
having with people under 40versus the conversations I was
having with executives over 40.
Under 40, people would tend tosay you've been a CEO before,

(05:50):
you've managed a board, whatwould you do in my position,
what would you do in thissituation?
So they're looking for adviceand it would come out in a
variety of different ways.
Over 40, I would never get that.
So that was one thing I startedto see.
And then, as I noticed, as Ilooked, I saw more and more
differences in similar areas.

(06:13):
So at one point I simplydecided I would really focus on
executives over 40.
And I decided I wouldn't becoaching individuals or teams
under 40, and really make thatmy specialty.
And that then, through thatprocess and the research that

(06:34):
went into that, that eventuallyproduced this book Soaring
Beyond Midlife, what I wasnoticing was that there are
things that slow down, like wemight forget our kids' names or
where we put our phone orwhatever, but at the same time,

(06:55):
the two hemispheres areconnecting more with each other.
So we can connect the dots.
We can see patterns.
We're a bit more comfortablewith ambiguity and paradox
because of this hemisphericintegration that's happening.
So there are some extremelypositive things that are
happening during that periodthat, uh, bring a huge amount of

(07:17):
value to leadership, and what Iwas noticing is that people
were trying to be the same kindof leader as they were younger,
with the stamina and all that,and it didn't work too well.
If they can embrace thesesuperpowers that are coming out
of midlife, they have apotential to be much, much
better leaders.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
And hemispheres are in the brain, not on the
geography map right.
Yeah, right and left hemispherein the brain not on the
geography map right, yeah, rightand left hemisphere in the
brain, yeah, and your kids'names.
I have a situation where I havetwo children whose both names
begin with M, and that createssome interesting challenges at
times.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
So I know what you're talking about yes.
Yes, those things tend tohappen, and hopefully your
wife's name doesn't start with M, so because you could add to
the complexity there.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
No, I could tell you a story about that, but it might
not be appropriate to thepodcast.
So what makes this book unique?
So what makes this book uniqueOn Leading People?
The goal is to bring youcutting edge thought leadership
from many of the leadingthinkers and practitioners in

(08:35):
leadership today.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
link with friends, family andcolleagues, and stay informed by
joining our leading peopleLinkedIn community of HR leaders

(08:57):
and talent professionals.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
I think what I keep hearing from people is that they
feel positive, emboldened,joyful through the book because
it really allows them to let goof the things that they used to
do well when they were in their30s and maybe early 40s but are
not doing quite as well now and,rather than just obsessing over
that, they can let go andembrace all these new areas that
they hadn't really thoughtabout.
For example, a lot of peoplethat get to the C-suite are

(09:39):
excellent at keeping a hugeamount of details in their minds
and they're used to that.
That's what got them there.
So they'll be up in front ofthe board and they'll be
presenting and they've got theirspreadsheet up on the screen of
the PowerPoint presentationfilled with numbers, and then
they'll go oh my God, I don'tremember what's behind this
particular cell, and thenthey'll try to pretend like they

(10:02):
know everything that's going onwith that.
And then somebody asks aquestion that touches an area
where the person's memory haskind of lapsed a bit and it can
get difficult because they mightget defensive, they might firm
up and get hard.
So rather than that, it's kindof an attitude of saying, ok,
well, my brain isn't masteringthe level of detail that it used

(10:25):
to, it's not keeping thesethings in memory.
I need to be surrounded byyounger brains that can do that.
But here, talking to the board,I'm going to skim over the
details.
Maybe have a couple of mypeople in the room who can
answer some of the more detailedquestions.
I'll be comfortable with that.
And, however, I'm going toconnect the dots in ways that I
never did before and really takeit to another level.

(10:47):
So it's a different kind ofthinking.
It's really moving up in anexecutive capacity.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
You mentioned the details there and I don't know
whether you've come across aconcept called the hierarchy of
ideas, which is the ability togo from really massive big
picture down to detail and backup.
It's like navigating a spacebetween the more abstract,
ambiguous, etc.
Right down to very fine detailsand even moving laterally

(11:15):
within that space.
How important a skill is thatfor people who aspire to the
C-suite?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think it's extremely important Now, with
the caveat that a lot of peopleget to the C-suite able to
manage much more of those lowerlevels of details that you just
described.
So they're comfortable in thatspace and they'll spend a lot of
time there and they'lloccasionally go up to what

(11:47):
you're describing, that back andforth.
The invitation through my bookis to kind of although I don't
use this model, this frameworkyou just described, it makes
tremendous sense.
The invitation is to step intoareas that are less comfortable
than than when they were younger, because there are new areas

(12:10):
that are developing.
But because they're new they'regoing to feel uncomfortable.
So it's kind of playing more atthat big picture area as
opposed to really beingcomfortable at the detail.
If they can bounce aroundbetween them and all that and
later, that's just fantastic.
Yeah, it's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, I work a lot with high potential groups like
people who are designated foradvancement, particularly in the
EU context here in Belgium, andthey're on this program because
of their ability to followthose very detail, specific.
You know they deliver well andthe one pattern I've noticed
I've been doing this since 2007is the ones some of them really
struggle to to get up to thathigher chunk and deal with the

(13:02):
lack of certainty and ambiguitythat comes with moving up an
organization.
And you know, always it's notmy role here, but sometimes
you're looking at it thinkingmaybe this is not the path for
you, even though it's a paththat would advance your career,
because it's not going to.

(13:22):
Some people just maybe are morecomfortable just in those
detailed roles and have younoticed that over the years
where some people just it lookedlike they had the potential and
then when they were put intothose contexts it just wasn't
going to happen?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, and it's so common that it doesn't
necessarily appear in that makeor break manner.
You just described commonsituations at the c-suite where

(14:10):
the ceo wants the c-suite teamto uh engage more on things that
are not in their specific areas.
So basically it's kind of likethe old silo mentality we used
to talk about, but here it'sanother level of silo.
It's uh, um, the image that Ihave is a ceo is kind of like
the center of a wagon wheel andin those sessions they'll be
talking to one person who'sresponsible for one area and

(14:32):
then they'll turn and they'retalking to someone else and you
don't have conversations reallyhappening along the edge of the
wheel between participants on anequal, equal basis.
It's like if it's a financequestion, the cfo is going to
talk.
If it's a finance question, thecfo is going to talk.
If it's a marketing question,the marketing person and the
others are like I won't talk nowbecause this is not my area and
that's that works okay.

(14:54):
When business is really kind ofthe old-fashioned way, top-down,
hierarchical, we know what'shappening next month, next year,
things are pretty fixed.
But when things are reallychanging and there's a lot of
ambiguity, you can't have that.
You've got to have the top teamall talking together on issues

(15:14):
where even speaking up on thingsthat maybe somebody feels that
they should not have theauthority to speak about.
So that's the level that'smoving up to that higher level
that maybe somebody feels thatthey should not have the
authority to speak about.
So it that's the level that'smoving up to that higher level,
realizing that even though I'm aI don't know that the chief
product officer or somethingchief technology officer, I

(15:36):
still have something extremelyvaluable to say about finance
marketing, hr um, and it'sembracing that and speaking even
though that's not my area ofexpertise.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
And, in your experience of this evolution,
what types of themes unite themthen, these people who are used
to being in their specificcorner, their specific silo?
What themes have you found?
I'm imagining that you're notjust doing one-on-ones, you're
probably doing teams as well.
C-suite teams are you, and sowhat kind of thing, when you

(16:10):
find that situation where it'sthe hub of the wheel interacting
just with the spokes and you'rethinking this wheel isn't
turning, it's turning but it'sclunky, what kinds of themes
have you found?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
start to get that cross-fertilization that you're
looking for okay, yeah, aroundtwo-thirds of my work is with
the teams themselves andone-third is one-on-one coaching
.
Um, now the I.
There are two areas that firstpop up where the themes come out
.
One of of them is I'll start aretreat, a first retreat, with a

(16:47):
team.
We'll look at a very simple oldschool no PowerPoint or
anything, put a flip chart upand then a gauge one to 10.
How effective are we as a team?
From one to 10?
Each person puts a dot and thenput another dot on how
effective do we need to be inorder to achieve everything we
need to achieve as a team?

(17:07):
And universally, people puthigher dots on where they feel
the team needs to be.
So what that demonstrates isthat, even the team themselves,
they sense that they need to bemore of a team in order to get
the complex stuff done that theyneed.
That's a first step, becausebefore that they may not have

(17:31):
really thought about that orthey might not really know what
their colleagues think.
So this establishes thateverybody believes they need to
be.
If it's four, five, six, sevenwhere we are today, people are
putting eight, nine, 10 on wherewe need to be.
So there's a gap.
The second one goes much deeper.
It would be once they'veidentified one or two or three

(17:56):
big initiatives that are verycritical to the organization.
We'll go through a process ofhow much do you agree that this
is a?
This is a top initiative, oneof the top three.
From one to ten.
How much do you agree?
Um one to ten.
How confident are you ofachieving this?
And then the third one isreally where all of this comes

(18:19):
out.
The magic comes in.
It's from one to ten.
What is your sense of personalownership in this particular
initiative?
So the agreement is aninteresting conversation.
You can by talking about theinitiative.
Agreement goes up or goes down.
It just creates clarity,confidence.

(18:40):
Same thing.
If you talk about the details,you go deeper into it.
The confidence goes up.
You have more time, more money.
Confidence goes up.
Those are interesting.
They're mechanical.
Ownership is a real eye-openerfor most people because we tend
to equate input with ownership.
So if my input into aninitiative is high, I'll have

(19:02):
naturally a high sense ofownership.
If my input is low, I'll havenaturally a high sense of
ownership.
If my input is low, I'll feelthat my ownership is low and
we'll see the dots up on theflip chart.
Then there's that conversationall unpacks and then I'll ask
them are there areas in yourlife where you have low input

(19:23):
but very, very high ownership?
And invariably people will thinkof something like yeah, my
kid's education, I have a veryhigh ownership in it, but I'm
not in their classes with themevery day.
So my input level is quite lowbut my ownership is very high.
A marriage, but my ownership isvery high.

(19:43):
A marriage my input ideally ismaybe 50%, theoretically, but my
ownership is 100%.
If I say my ownership is 50%,we all know what happens with
Adam, so they get it becausethey see in their lives that

(20:08):
there are many areas.
So then they can then stretchthat and say what would it look
like if I take an attitude of100% ownership on these
initiatives, even if my input islow?
That breaks the silo mentalityand it really brings them
together as a team and thenthey're no longer in that wagon
wheel mode.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
It sounds quite brilliant that actually,
actually, and I guess, as thefacilitator, when you ask that
question and you see people's uh, you know, body language,
physical reactions, you start tosee the people who are really
not comfortable with theinitiatives because they're
going to be very hesitant to toeven maybe answer the question.
They're already start.

(20:43):
You start to see it in theirface, in their, in their.
They'll be maybe fidgeting andfumbling and things and and so I
guess you already know whoyou're going to start maybe
drawing out a few things with tofind out what's really going on
beneath the surface yeah, allof that, all of that comes out
and then another thing.
Yeah, sorry, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yes, I was going to say all of that comes out, and
then I rely very heavily on thetrust.
These are people that tend tobe in their 50s.
I know that they're goingthrough these changes of midlife
because of the research thatI've done in the book that I

(21:26):
wrote.
So I can watch thosehesitations in the room but
trust that the person's comfortwith ambiguity is greater than
it was five or seven or tenyears ago and they'll come along
.
It's very rare for people notto come along.

(21:46):
It's only when they're alreadyplanned on leaving or there's
some kind of there's somethingelse going on with the team.
But generally, even with thehesitance, it'll come along.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
So, just as a question, because it intrigues
me personally, and I'm sure someof our listeners are probably
also wondering about this, whenwe talk about a C-suite team,
it's quite different from a teamthat's on a project or in a
department, you know, like thesales department or the

(22:18):
marketing department or thefinance department.
How do you define the conceptof team when they're all kind of
running big parts of thebusiness and they have to be a
team in in a kind of differentway, isn't it so?
So, then, what we would say,like if you took a football team
, well, they're all on the pitch, right, but here they're often

(22:38):
not all on the pitch, but howthey play is going to affect the
results on the on the ultimateresults, the ultimate results.
You're listening to LeadingPeople.
With me, gerry Murray, my guestthis week is Anis Haddad, a

(23:00):
former CEO of a successful techcompany and today an executive
coach to the C-suite.
So, coming up next, we'llexplore the six leadership
superpowers that emerge inmidlife, why detail-driven
leaders need to shift gears, andwhat truly defines a leader's
impact in the second half oftheir life, and we also have

(23:23):
some advice for young leaders.
So stay tuned for more insights.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's an extremely rich and complex area.
That's very transformative forexecutives that get to that
level, because it's just sodifferent from what they
experienced earlier and becausebusiness is changing and things
are moving much faster andthere's so much ambiguity,
there's a much higher need forthem to act as a team, whereas
maybe 15, 20 years ago that needwas a lot less.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Okay, so let's get back to a little bit the way
you've done the book.
So in Soaring Beyond Midlife,you merge leadership insights
with stories, fiction and poetry.
So, why this combination andhow does this help you convey
your message and what makes itinteresting for the reader?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
It's a very different .
The way we learn at that age,in our 40s and 50s, is very
different from the way we learnyounger.
It's much less directive.
So you'll notice the verypopular business books all have

(24:45):
like the five steps to this orthe 10 things to do.
It's a, it's a very, verydirective kind of an approach.
Um, here, at this level, it'svery different.
So I'm in a, I'm engaging withpeople through fiction, through
storytelling.
Um, because it has a.

(25:08):
It has a storytelling becauseit has a more powerful way of
engaging with complex andambiguous ideas.
Poetry I love in this spacebecause poetry is all about
paradox.
It's how do you bringparadoxical ideas together in a

(25:28):
way that feels fresh and givesyou an aha and we get pleasure
from, from that kind of paradox.
So, uh, it's such a different,it's such a different area.
Something I noticed in the bookand I write about it in the book
is that, um, the frameworksthat we use, uh, um were in

(25:49):
leadership.
Many of them were developed bypeople just before they hit
their own midlife period.
So you have things like um, jimcollins, good to great, uh, his
book on the five levels ofleadership, and the top one is a
mix of humility and iron will.

(26:09):
He was like 38 when he came upwith that and he wrote at the
time that he didn't believe thatthat top level you could really
.
He wasn't sure, but he didn'tbelieve that you could achieve
it.
It must be innate, he felt, buthe was 38, he hadn't gone
through that process yet.
Who else?
Bob Keegan, robert Keegan onthe self-transforming mind, on

(26:35):
the levels of learning,excellent, excellent work, but
it was published in 1941, 1942.
And he also said that hisstatement was only 1% of people
ever reach that highest level ofself-transforming mind.
And I'm I I question that.
I'm like no, actually, I thinkit's a lot more common.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
When you've gone through the things that I
describe in my book, the stuffthat, the stuff that can produce
a midlife crisis, um, is thesame type of stuff that, uh,
that can really stretch you inthese areas you actually, as you
talk there, you remind me of amodel from a psychologist called
claire graves, which led to theconcept of spiral dynamics and

(27:20):
even the concept of tealorganizations, and that this
idea that you would, you wentthrough different um phases in
your development, from moreindividualistic to more
collective phases and you wouldreach level seven or whatever.
And level seven was theintegrative part where you could
navigate back and forth intodifferent parts of how you

(27:43):
operated.
So the four was really the theestablishment you know follow
the rules, you know run thebusiness, the big corporation.
Five was the entrepreneur I'mgoing to leave that world and
I'm going to, I'm going toreally show what I made of.
Six became sort of the morecollective consciousness around.
You know the planet needssaving and everything else.

(28:05):
But then seven was when somebodyemerged from all this and went
actually I can be who I am andmy followers are going to be my
followers because of who I am,not because I'm trying to push
an agenda whatever, whether inthe big corporate or as an
entrepreneur, or as a, you know,ngo or whatever.
And it's also one of thosemodels which, um, once again,

(28:29):
when you study it, um, the goalin studying it is to to try and
figure out where you are on thatpath and try and figure out
what would it, what would I needto be doing in my life to to be
able to get beyond the, youknow, up to level seven.
And then there were peopleadded other levels above that,
more spiritual levels, but um,it does echo a little bit of

(28:52):
that and, once again, I guessyou need to have those life
experiences before you could getto that integrative level.
I mean, maybe that's whatyou've discovered, that there's
a certain point in your lifewhere there's that I suppose
glad we'll call the tippingpoint.
You know that point where allof a sudden, one day you think,
well, actually a lot of thingscome together and I suppose we

(29:13):
call this, some people call this, wisdom.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Is it like, yeah, yeah, that's what we call wisdom
I I don't think it happensautomatically.
I think the environment ofexperiencing life the way you
described it makes it morelikely that some of these higher
levels are are reached.
Um, is it possible for ayounger person?

(29:38):
Absolutely.
You have people that are reallybrilliant and they, they do
have a much different way ofthinking.
My point is that with age, thepotential possibility of
accessing those ways of thinking, I believe, dramatically

(29:59):
increases If we want to accessthem.
There's another question.
A lot of times we stay on whatwe're most comfortable with, so
we don't necessarily go into it.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, you talk in the book about self-awareness and a
re-evaluation of goals andvalues when people get to
midlife.
Could you elaborate a littlebit on your experiences with
working with C-suite, on howthis manifests itself, so our
listeners can get to a littlebit of an appreciation of that?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
So there are themes that appear.
There are a few that arebouncing in my head as you ask
the question.
One of them is late 50s.
Someone starts to say I reallyhave to make this work.

(30:56):
This is my last chance, this ismy last gig before I retire.
It's not working out the wayI'd want it to and they're
becoming very brittle and a bitdefensive and it's hard and
they're looking at things veryshort term and they're saying I
just want to throw it all outbecause it's just not working

(31:17):
For them.
Part of that is a reckoningit's looking at.
Here I am coming at this 60-65point, which traditionally is
where it stops, and I haven'tgotten to where I wanted to.
I'm not as good as some of mycolleagues and friends and stuff
.
Maybe I'm a failure.
I don't want to be a failure.
What am I going to do?
And it becomes very, verydifficult.

(31:40):
So the process there is to takea step back and to look at
actually I may have a few moredecades of life.
We're not back in the 40s or50s when we retire and then we
die a couple years later.
I may have 30, 40, 50 yearsmore of activity.

(32:00):
I might not want to do what I'mdoing today, but I'll probably
still want to be contributing insome way or another.
And that often then relaxesthings so that they can
reconnect with their values, andwhat is it that they find
really that they're passionateabout Then?
Their life, their work, thenit's rejuvenating.

(32:23):
That's one element I see.
Another theme that I see atthat level, at the c-suite level
, is uh well, these are, theseare parts of the um, the three
winds of change that I talkabout in my book on things that
happen to us in midlife.
One area is kids growing up andleaving home, and I know it's a

(32:43):
generalization because there arepeople that don't have kids or
their kids are younger, becausethey have them later in life,
but it's quite common.
In the C-suite, a number ofpeople around the room have kids
, and they tend to be 18, 19, 20, 21.
So they're going through aprocess of re-evaluating.

(33:06):
What does it mean to be aparent when my kids are growing
up?
They don't want my adviceanymore.
I can't tell them what to do.
I can't give them KPIs the wayI gave them KPIs when they were
younger.
What's my value as a parent inthat case?
And it's a very, very similarprocess to leadership at that

(33:29):
level.
If I'm not managing people andI need to lead them and inspire
them, not through KPIs andpunishments and stuff like that.
What does it look like?
How do I do that?
There are times I can walk intoa company and if I see lots of
kind of tedious KPIs around, Iknow that HR still has little

(33:50):
kids running around at home.
They haven't reached that pointwhere their own kids are older,
so they've got all these littlerules that really feel like
house rules and stuff.
So that's another theme thatpeople are grappling with at
that time.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
It strikes me that that, um, I'm just going to
react and interact with that.
It strikes me a little bit like, um, the, the nature of, of
one's influence changes as yourkids get older and they start
thinking for themselves.
And you know, you know thisconcept of coercive power, etc.

(34:29):
Which most, most leaders willhave used a little bit, even
though we say, some leaders aremore enlightened than others and
you know they, they look formore social power and other
factors to to bring people withthem and get commitment.
They will occasionally begrateful for those rules because
they'll just throw them atpeople.
And yet they, when you get tothat late teenage years, because

(34:49):
I know it, I've been there, uh,you get to that late teenage
years, I got four daughters.
So, and and that makes it evenmore interesting, um, as a man
in a woman's world, and but inthe sense that one has to talk

(35:10):
to the to, to, to the kids, andit's never easy in their world,
you know, meet them where theyare, and each of the my four
kids are quite different in manyways in terms of what they want
and what their aspirations are.
So there's no cookie cutterapproach.
There's not like.
Well, that worked with daughterA.
So it must, it must work withdaughter c.
You know, has to right, itain't gonna go.

(35:31):
And yet at the same time, the,the, the dna and other things
unite, provide something unitingthe thing.
So how, how have you noticedthat type of it's am I?
Am I talking complete rubbishhere?
Or is this kind of making senseto you and what you're seeing
with these people as theygrapple with this third wind of

(35:53):
change that you mention in thebook?

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I find it an extremely beautiful process,
because it's messy, it'sambiguous, you don't know if
it's going to work, you don'tknow what to do, you haven't
been there before and it justkind of through life, forces you
, through the ringer, to learnhow to be more accepting of

(36:21):
others and seeing what is it?
What value can you bring inthose situations?
When they're younger, the valueis clear Put a roof on their
heads, keep them safe, tell themwhat to do, teach them right.
All those kinds of things areclear.
Later it's more so.
I think it's beautiful that itforces us to find what is our

(36:44):
value when those things are gone, and it's that exact same value
that's really, really powerfulat that C-suite level.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, and in the book you talk about the six
leadership superpowers.
But I'm actually going to leavethat to people to go and read
it in the book, because I wouldlike to ask you a question.
Because I would like to ask youa question, what advice would
you give your younger self,based on all your experience?
Would?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
you give the same advice to young leaders today.
Well, the younger self that Iwould I'm asked that question
quite often and the younger selfthat I would go to is my, uh,
my mid forties self, so 20 yearsago.
Um, and the advice there is to,um, take perspective, take a

(37:40):
bigger perspective and realizethat, uh, you don't just have
one shot in life, cause I that'skind of where I was at all.
I had was tech entrepreneur.
I built a company.
Um, that was one company Iwouldn't be.
I really had to make it work,so there was no room for error

(38:01):
or failure.
So when errors and failuresinevitably happened, it felt
profoundly destructive to me.
Um, so, being able to take someperspective and think life is
going to be going lots ofdifferent directions, I got many
years ahead.
Uh, I think that would be theadvice to my younger self.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Um, I wish I had a coach back then.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
But we didn't have a coaching was for like, if you're
broken or something, or you geta media coach if you need to
talk in front of the camera.
But the kind of coaching thatwe see today, that's extremely
common.
It just really wasn't aroundwhen I was a CEO.
I wish I'd had a coach at thattime.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
And if you go back, I saw the ICF celebrating a sort
of I'm not sure if they werefounded in the mid-90s, but they
certainly were celebrating somemilestone recently from about
96 onwards.
And you know, when I wastraining and coaching in the
mid-2000s, even the ICF was nota major um force in coaching or

(39:14):
the EMCC or any.
There were several academiesand you kind of, I suppose, went
with whatever felt right andwhatever you you noticed was
helping you get results, ratherthan I need to belong to that
particular body or whatever.
So it is.
I mean, if you go back to thelate John John so John Whitmore,
um, and his journey intocoaching through um, uh,

(39:39):
Galway's inner game of tennis,and that you know, you can see
that it was.
It was something that evolvedgradually over time and today,
of course, maybe that is theadvice for younger people,
particularly if they're at thatage in an organization and you
know, making progress is to getthat coach, because the coach is
not there as a remedial person.
The coach is there, like in anysport.

(40:01):
It's the person who's there tohelp, try and help you get the
best out of yourself.
And if you can do that foryourself, transfer that to
getting the best out of yourselfand if you can do that for
yourself, transfer that togetting the best out of the
people that you're working withright yeah yeah, so yeah, that
would have been extremelyvaluable.
I have a another question foryou, and I'm just wondering what

(40:23):
daily rituals do you practicethese days and would you
recommend them to others?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
I meditate every day.
I think it's extremely valuable.
That's the first ritual thatcomes to mind and I would
recommend that for everybody,but not necessarily like you sit
down and close your eyes.
There are all kinds ofmeditation meditative practices,
walking without the phone on,without just kind of consciously

(40:57):
being purposeful, and walkingswimming.
A lot of people I know thatthey find that very meditative,
so I think that's very powerful.
Another one is exercise.
I have to get my physicalexercise in.
I try to do an hour a day ofexercise, gym three times a week
, walking and stuff in betweenthat.

(41:20):
I need to have that constantphysical, otherwise I get stuck.
What other practices do I have?
I love love to write, so I'vegot a third book that's kind of
bubbling right now.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Um, I like to noodle new ideas, so that's kind of a
practice, I guess okay, and Iwant to just come back to one of
the things that you mentionedat the very beginning, just to
help round out this conversation.
You said I like people morethan computers.

(41:57):
This was your big kind of Isuppose we could call it a
little bit of an epiphany momentI like people more than
computers.
What are you learning about thefuture for humans and AI?

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Oh, I use AI all the time.
Um, it's such a big question.
I think there are big parts ofAI that obviously are just going
to come in and really help usdo better what we do today.
It's going to free us up from alot of the details, like the

(42:36):
C-suite person I mentionedearlier in front of the
PowerPoint presentation, whocan't remember what was in the
cell.
That's no longer going to besomething that really we have to
be doing.
Ai is going to be handling alot of that.
So it's going to force us toreally find what is human, what
is most human in what we do thathas value.

(42:59):
So it's really going to forceon a very massive scale,
globally on people to explorethis big question what is
uniquely human about me, what iswhat is less human about me
that I can use ai for, and whatis uniquely human that has value

(43:20):
to other people and that Ireally enjoy?
It's a very different kind ofquestion than we've had in the
past.
This morning I did a podcastwith a lady who uses humor.
She's a comedian and she bringshumor into the workplace with
C-suites, and it was exactly thesame conversation.
Is that AI doesn't do humor?

(43:40):
You try to get ChatGPT to dosomething humorous and it fails.
It'll recognize humor.
When you do something, it'll gooh, that's funny, that's
humorous.
It's very nice how you pulledthat together, but it has
tremendous trouble pullingtogether the self-deprecation of
humor, all that stuff.
It'll go to crudeness, sarcasmand things like that that are

(44:05):
not really that level finesseand, interestingly, it's like
it's a bit like poetry, asyou're playing with paradox,
you're playing with ambiguity.
So I I I'm excited that ai ispushing us to really explore.
What does it mean to truly behuman?
One of my favorite times in myretreats is, uh, invariably at

(44:26):
the end of the retreat somebodywill say um, I don't know how to
share this, but I really feel alot more human.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
um, and it's it's.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I've heard that different countries, different
cultures, different companiesand industries, and I love that
because that's really that's, Ithink, really what this is all
about.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, so they often talk about which professions are
safe from ai and the comedianprofession.
I think, uh, having I'd doneexactly what you said when, when
gpt chat gpt first came out, Iwas writing a sunday post you
know, a short thought pieceevery sunday and I actually
decided to.
I always had some humor in thepost.

(45:09):
This was part of the, the wayI'd structured it, and I I
decided to get gp chat gpt tohelp me with it and, as you say,
woeful, um, I shared themanyway and I said look, guys,
this is as good as they can do.
They either just do clicheslike you know, all those kind of
silly jokes that kids tell toeach other, and they still don't

(45:30):
even get them.
They're very, very correct.
What sorts of things are onC-suite mind?
Because my personal take onthis is that nobody knows.
We are guessing as we go.
There's a lot of hype and, atthe same time, if I put myself
into the shoes of somebodysitting around a boardroom table
, it's also like it's going torequire investment.

(45:53):
Investment always has risk.
You're looking for returns, theevangelists are projecting, so
it's like's this fast trainthat's coming at the same time I
sense is maybe not as fast aspeople think, because a lot of
people won't want to get it.
You know they'll want to makedecisions around this that are

(46:14):
sound business decisions, notjust getting onto that fast
train that's zooming past andnot actually sure where it's
going to take them.
What's your sense from theconversations you're having?
Because this has to be a topicin boardrooms this last year or
so yeah, um, I, I think you justnailed it.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
I don't know what else to add to what you just
said.
It's all, all in.
What you just said, um, it's uh, and ai is not just one
monolithic thing.
There's all kinds of areas ofAI.
So there are certain areaswhere people are going, yeah,
that's a no-brainer, that has togo in.
We need to include that in ourcustomer engagement connection

(46:56):
platform or whatever.
There are areas where it'sabsolutely a no-brainer, other
areas where there are a lot of,uh, different questions that can
be explored.
So it's not monolithic, it's,it's uh, it's another wave yeah,

(47:18):
and it's not just chat gpteither.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
There's a lot more technology out there than just
the stuff that ChatGPT does.
Okay, so, coming to the end, soreflecting on our conversation,
what are perhaps a few keyinsights that you'd like our
audience, my audience, to takeaway, my listeners today, take
away from our conversation?

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Something we didn't, something we talked about, but
kind of on the edge of it.
Studies show that resiliencenaturally increases at midlife.
So there's something throughliving life causes resilience
scores to go up and thesestudies have been done a number

(48:07):
of times and there's somethingvery natural in that.
So it's like one thing to takeaway is to kind of starting
start to notice what are thesepositives of aging, rather than
the, the, the normal things thatwe hear through the media and
everything are all the negativesof aging.
There's some tremendouspositives of aging, so things to

(48:29):
embrace.
The other element is a part of,also linked to, resilience.
I've given resilience keynotesin the past and then I stopped.
I don't like the termresilience and in my book in
chapter the last chapter waswritten as an afterthought and
what I realized was that thewhole book is kind of a

(48:49):
reframing of the term resilienceinto what I call it's a wonky
term jovial rejuvenation.
Jovial rejuvenation so thesense of growing and changing
and rejuvenating and finding joyin that as a way to reframe

(49:13):
resilience, which is kind of abounce back Me against the
universe and I'll bounce backand I'll get it done and all
that.
It's more a joyful rejuvenationprocess.
Yeah, there's something funabout getting older Great.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
And so, as you get older and I get older, as you
get older, what's next for you,anis?

Speaker 2 (49:41):
So the big question in my mind now and I like to
have open questions that don'thave easy answers and just
noodle them for a while the bigquestion is what is it that we
create in our 60s and 70s?
I know what we create in our30s and 40s and in our 50s we're
kind of consolidating that andbuilding on what we've created.

(50:02):
But what is it we create in our60s and 70s?
It's different, um, it'sdifferent and and that excites
me- right now.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Is that what the next book might be touching on, or?

Speaker 2 (50:18):
it's actually not.
Uh, or it might, if this ideaof the book that I have now kind
of takes a back seat andsomething else comes in.
But the one that I'm working onis not really that.
Uh, this feels like.
This feels like a question thatI'll be able to answer in 20
years, 15 years, getting closerto the end of that 60 to 70

(50:41):
period all right, okay.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
So how do people get in touch with you?
What's the best platforms toreach you on?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
so the easiest.
Uh, my name is is unique, so Ihave the dot com.
So anisecom a-n-e-a-A-Ccom isthe easiest way to find me and
from there you can reach me onLinkedIn, facebook.
It'll link to my company, myaramiscom.
My books are all on anisecom,so that's the easiest way to

(51:15):
find me.
Just my first name, com.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Yeah, and I'll put some links in the show notes to
make that even easier for peopleout there.
So, as ever, thanks, anise, forsharing your insights, tips and
wisdom with my listeners heretoday.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Thank you, gerry, wonderful talking with you.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Coming up on Leading People At that point.
Some of the models are 50 yearsout of date.
Now make that 60 to 65 yearsout of date, so I'm still
hearing stuff being said that is65 years old, but it's far more
pernicious than that because,if you're in any leadership role
, these are the assumptionsyou're bringing to the

(51:59):
development potential of entireteams of people.
Next time on Leading People, wewelcome Professor Patricia
Riddle to the developmentpotential of entire teams of
people.
Next time, on Leading People,we welcome Professor Patricia
Riddle and Ian McDermott toexplore how neuroscience is
shaping the future of leadership.
For example, what if some ofthe leadership models we rely on

(52:19):
today are actually outdated by50 or even 60 years?
Patricia and Ian reveal whyunderstanding how the brain
really works, especiallyconcepts like neuroplasticity,
can transform how leadersdevelop and reach their
potential, make better decisionsand support their teams.

(52:41):
If you work in HR or you're acoach or a leader looking to
future proof your leadershipapproach, you won't want to miss
this.
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you, a quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.

(53:03):
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
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