January 5, 2025 • 51 mins
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This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision-makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others.
What if you could unlock the secret to true leadership presence, not through charisma, but by embracing authenticity and intention?
Join us as Caroline Goyder, a TEDx speaker, coach and author, shares her transformative journey from an early career in acting to mastering gravitas, and how you can begin your path toward genuine leadership.
Through her personal stories and insights, discover how failure can be a stepping stone to growth, drawing inspiration from thinkers like Samuel Beckett and Dan Gilbert. Caroline's journey, including her experiences while writing "The Star Qualities", offers valuable lessons on developing effective communication and leading with purpose.
Explore the profound impact of intentionality and storytelling in leadership with Caroline, as we discuss how these elements can shift a leader's presence from doubt to dynamic passion. Gravitas, often misunderstood as mere charisma, is unpacked as a grounded presence aligned with one's values.
- Hear stories of community leaders who embody this quality, serving causes greater than themselves, and reflect on how such leadership transcends personal ambition.
- Be inspired by role models whose stories illustrate the power of leading authentically and with a shared purpose.
- Gain insights into overcoming imposter syndrome in presentations through preparation and presence.
Whether you're looking to cultivate gravitas, enhance your presentations, or simply lead with greater impact, this episode equips you with practical tools and strategies to elevate your leadership journey.
Finally, we preview the Leading People conversation with my next guest, Marie-Hélène Pelletier, author of “The Resilience Plan – A strategic approach to optimizing your work performance and mental health”.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use,
Whether you're here for usefultools or thought
thought-provoking ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
How do you develop the kind of presence that
inspires trust, connection andaction?
Carolyn Goider, a TEDx speakerwith over 10 million views and
author of three books Gravitas,find your Voice and the Star
Qualities joins me on LeadingPeople to share how leaders can
unlock their inner confidenceand connect authentically with
their teams.
In this conversation, Carolinereveals why Gravitas isn't about
(01:20):
charisma and how to cultivateyour Gravitas the transformative
power of intention andstorytelling in leadership and
practical tools to find yourvoice and lead with purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Get ready to rethink what it means to truly lead with
presence.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Caroline Goiter welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Gerry, it is delightful to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, caroline, for the benefit of our listeners,
you've published several booksand we'll get to these shortly.
And just before we came on, wewere just reminiscing that our
paths crossed almost 20 yearsago in the world of
neurolinguistic programming, orNLP, and we were just sharing
some stories from that.
But first, so our listeners canget to know you better, how did
(02:12):
you get to where you are today?
Was there like a person, placeor thing or an event or an
epiphany moment?
And why did you choose thiscareer that you have today?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
really, in this with the Gravitas method, I guess I
must be quite stubborn because Ifell into this path because I
wasn't very good at it.
I trained as an actor and Ifound, although I was excited
about training as an actor, Iwasn't naturally great at it.
(02:45):
And they said to me you've gotno presence, you're not centered
, your alignment is off, you'renot breathing the right way, and
because I'd never thought aboutany of these things, it was a
horrible shock.
But why I say I must have beenquite stubborn is because I
didn't let it set me backpermanently and I really had to
(03:07):
unlearn old habits and learn newones.
And now I can say they wouldn'tsay that to me if I went to
drama school now and my life'swork, I guess, is to share that
epiphany with other people, thatwhen someone says you don't
have enough gravitas or presenceor you're not centered, it's
(03:27):
not permanent, you can change itand I love people getting that
same epiphany.
That's why I do what I do it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You say that I was yesterday.
I do this regular webinar atthe EU called learning to learn,
and somebody asked a questionyesterday and you might laugh at
the this one was how do I mean,how do I deal with failure?
Um, and you know, we have thatwonderful concept that we
embrace in in the world of nop,which is there's no failure,
(03:59):
only feedback, and so it was anopportunity to to reframe, and
actually what you've just kindof articulated here is actually
not a bad example, of otherpeople might have just said, oh
well, that's it, and you decidedno, that's not it, I'm going to
find another way to do this, isthat right?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, it really was that, and something in me wanted
to get better.
And I go back to Samuel Beckettyou you know a great Irishman
who said fail, fail again, failbetter.
And I think at some level Iknew that that's what I was
doing, although if you'd askedme all those years ago I was
pretty lost and I was prettyupset about it.
(04:36):
Now it was, as you say, ahugely useful lesson.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I think most people in any artistic endeavor would
identify with what you said.
Um, I don't know any.
I actually I do know someamazing, like musicians, for
example, who are really at thepinnacle of the really at the
top of their career and theystill think they have to get
better and the rest of us are inawe.
So it's uh, it's good, but it'sa part of the growth mindset
(05:06):
thing it's about, you know,continuously learning and
improving and you know we'renever done.
I think dan gilbert, the famouspsychologist in america, said
human beings are a work inprogress that mistakenly think
they're finished.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So yeah, I have no sense of being finished in any
way.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Great so, so, um, and I've been tuning into your work
on and off, particularly theselast couple of years, and I've
been incredibly impressed, forexample, with your TED Talk that
you did and we also shared somestories there that took some
work.
Caroline Walker talk andliterally should watch that TED
(05:45):
talk.
It's full of wonderful,wonderful techniques and ways of
engaging audience and youmentioned theatre and you know a
lot of what you've.
I think your was was your firstbook, this one here, was it?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It was indeed Wow, my first child my first child is
just.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I just held up for the listeners the star qualities
, which seems to be a bit like amodeling exercise you did with
people who really were good atthis.
Would you like to just startoff talking about your books?
Maybe mention that one firstand then how it evolved to where
you are today and what you'reactually focused on with this
gravitas myth?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's funny because I was working at Central School of
Speech and Drama and I had acoach I mean, you and I both
know the power of coaching andmy coach said if you want to
step out of the shadow of thisdrama school, you should write a
book.
Seemed utterly terrifying.
And so she said and if you wantto write a book, you want to
talk to actors.
And she said, because you workat Central, you can get to some
(06:48):
really top actors.
So I started writing to actorsbecause I thought I want to, as
you say, model confidence, andA-list actors know about finding
confidence.
And she said to me don't justwrite to someone on East Enders,
you need to write to the A-list.
And she gave me the most usefuladvice that I have taught to
(07:09):
leaders all over the world since, which is, if you want to get
to someone, google the threethings that they talk about that
are most valuable to them, thedeepest values, and find out how
they correlate with yours.
And when you get to the centerof that Venn diagram, put those
three values in the first lineof the email, because why would
(07:31):
we say no to something thatspeaks to our deepest values?
In the first week I had HelenMirren, cate Blanchett and Cate
Winslet, and then of course youcan write to agents and you can
write to other actors.
So I wrote to literary agentsand said I have these three
actors and she said don't writeto any old agent, write to the
(07:51):
top agents.
So I wrote a letter to JohnnyGeller at the time, who now runs
Curtis Brown, and I knew thathe had been an actor, so there
was some intelligence there interms of this project might
interest him.
He comes back same day.
I like the sound of this Comein.
So it was in some waysincredibly fast.
(08:15):
But the lesson in it was if youspeak to people's deepest
values and you are congruentabout how they mesh with yours,
why would anybody say no?
And that lesson has kind ofbeen with me ever since and it
led to gravitas and then findyour voice.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
But none of it would have happened without that
really elegant piece of coachingand I suppose to anybody trying
to decode that it's a littlebit the what's in it for me.
You, you, once you get to thevalues level with people, uh, it
tends to resonate and they,they really see how you would uh
(08:51):
connect well with them, rightthe why of who they are, rather
than the what this project isabout yeah, too often people
promote themselves to try andbuild.
I suppose they're trying tobuild credibility, but, as you
say, often you want to firstconnect before you try to build
credit credibility.
You, you found that magic forme, so I'm going to take a note
(09:12):
of that.
I hope our listeners are takingnotes of that.
It because it, yeah, and itmakes sense.
Um, so you went on from thea-list and and then you, would
it be fair to say you, you, youfocused in on a particular area
of of this presence and andcentering and with which?
(09:33):
With the voice.
But finding your voice is notjust about the, the, the vocal
quality.
It's got to do with a lot ofother things.
So maybe you can unpack thatfor our listeners on leading
people.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
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Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
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Speaker 3 (10:30):
It's something that increasingly, I am almost
annoyed about.
Maybe annoyed is the wrong word, but it frustrates me that in a
culture where we talk a lotabout mindfulness and we talk a
lot about things likecenteredness and presence, I
hear breathing experts you knowpeople who teach breathing as a
job not making the connectionbetween the out-breath and
speech or song, and I thinkthere's a huge missing link for
(10:54):
us globally around the voice asexhalation, because if the
exhalation is voice, then apause is an in-breath and
suddenly you're into the wholeof the somatic wealth that we
have as humans.
And because most of us arecompletely unconscious about how
speech works, we're just notharnessing that and it really
(11:17):
frustrates me.
I think that awareness willcome, probably soon, but there
might be a reason in educationwhy it's not taught.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
If I'm being a little bit cynical, okay, um, it's
interesting you say that, um,one of one of the breathing
techniques that I was taught, uh, 15, 16 years ago, was based on
huna.
You know the hawaiian.
One of the things that we paidattention to there was when you
breathe out, you're actuallybreathing energy.
Uh, into the world.
(11:48):
Gorgeous, and and and where itcomes from, apparently, is when
somebody wasn't well, they did.
They defined this in theirculture that there was something
wrong with their energy andthat people would get together
and sit around a bed, forexample, if somebody's not well,
and breathe what you know,focus on positive thoughts and
(12:10):
breathe in and breathe outpositive energy, lovely, help
the person heal and in some waysit may not be quite the exact
same thing, but, as you say it's.
It's like what's happening whenwe breathe in, what's happening
when we breathe out.
It's not, it's not just amechanical in and out thing that
keeps us alive.
There's other stuff there.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's soul.
I mean, it's harnessing soul.
There's a beautiful word inWelsh which I am going to not
pronounce correctly, so thosewho are Welsh natives or speak
Welsh forgive me.
It sounds, I think, like hul,and it comes from the
Anglo-Saxon idea of a boat witha mast and a sail that's
(12:54):
billowing out.
You know the boat is movingswiftly and if you think of a
wonderful Welsh choir peoplestanding tall, the mast is
strong, the breath is full, thesound is powerful I think for
all of us, we could all learn toharness that better, because
(13:15):
when we find our voices we arepowerful.
You know, on so many levels andso much of modern life staring
at phones, hunched over, sittingat desks you know that as a
musician, it takes that poweraway.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and as a musician, actually I have four
daughters and every one of themsings and plays instruments and
it's just the most amazing.
We really don't appreciate howbeautiful the voice is.
One of my colleagues in theband used to say he was a violin
player.
So violin players have to bevery.
They don't have frets on theviolin, you know to know where
(13:51):
to put their fingers, but hewants.
He used to say the mostpowerful and beautiful
instrument of all is the voice.
And actually it is so true Inso many cultures where they
couldn't afford musicalinstruments, they used the voice
or combinations of voices tocreate beautiful music.
And maybe that's where theWelsh choir thing grows out of.
You know, obviously maybe aclassical tradition of
(14:13):
harmonizing, but it's hard tobeat.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh, powerful, yeah, and it changes us.
So let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Let's go beyond just the vocal aspect of this.
And what does it mean to findyour voice?
And then how does that leadinto gravitas and all the great
things that come out of that.
So you know, at a moremetaphorical level, what does it
mean to find your voice.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I'm going to go to a client I was working with
yesterday actually, whoobviously I would not name and I
won't even name where she works.
She's a very senior leader andshe said to me they've gone
through a lot of transformation.
I have big, all hands and I getonto the call and I feel like
I'm in an exam.
I have a script and I say itand when she walks into the room
(15:01):
with you she's full of presence, she's carries herself
beautifully, her voice ispowerful and we watched one of
her all hands and she washunched over her laptop,
sounding like it wasn't reallyher words and it it was.
There's something about thepressure of a script, a
performance, or being judged,because maybe you're taking
(15:24):
people through a transformationthat is difficult, that they're
not enjoying.
It was like she had slightlyshrunk and the journey we went
through in a half day coachingsession was to help her find the
intention, because I don't knowabout you, jerry, but I feel
that a lot of powerfulperformance is about
(15:44):
intentionality.
I said what do you want them tofeel?
And she was really surprised bythat question because she
thought what do I want them tothink?
So we set her intention.
We thought about story, becausestory, I think, is a really
beautiful way to tap into thingsthat matter to you.
And I said what are the storiesof the green shoots, of success
(16:06):
in this transformation?
And she started to tell me astory and I said we need to use
that, because stories will helpchange the audience's mindset
from the pain of transformationto the potential.
Yeah, and so she used a storyas a metaphor for change, and
then we mind mapped it with lotsof colorful sharpies on a big
(16:26):
piece of a3 and she suddenlycould see that this was fun, it
was creative, that it wasn't anessay anymore, and she went in
three hours from someone smalland hunched and flat on a team's
meeting to someone who I know,when she does it, will be
standing passionate, full ofenergy and persuasive, and that
(16:50):
was always in her.
But you know, as you know, goodcoaching is really just about
going to someone.
I trust you've got this.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Let's draw it out it's almost like you have the
key and you can unlock thatlittle part, that door that they
never sort of opening becausethey just thought, well, that
that door's key and you canunlock that little part, that
door that they never saw openingbecause they just thought, well
, that door's locked.
I can't do that I can't do it.
Yeah, I have at least two orthree stories came into my head
of similar experiences withpeople who were being scripted
(17:19):
and basically threw the scriptaway and said if you were to
just tell me now over a coffeewhat it is you want people to
take away, what would it be?
And then they find their voice.
In that way, they flow.
Say what stops you from sayingthat?
Say, well, I've been told Ihave to follow the script and
you go.
Is it you?
(17:39):
And they go.
No, that's why you're havingchallenges.
And you get back to valuesagain.
It's not.
And you get back to values.
Again, you know it's notcongruent with who they feel
they are.
And then, of course, I supposepeople would say you know, if
you have to script thesemessages to that degree, you
know, is everything reallyworking the way the organization
(18:01):
wants it to work, if they haveto do that?
So anyway, I'm now curious toevolve into the concept of
gravitas, which I think probablyflows naturally from this world
of voice and presence.
So gravitas is a very, veryinteresting word linguistically.
I'm not even sure if somelanguages could translate it.
(18:23):
I live in a very multilingualworld.
So why Gravitas and what's thegoal of what you're trying to
communicate with that word?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's funny because it came about because clients were
asking me for the word.
They would say you know, Ithink of a big telco.
They would say one or two ofour executives need more
gravitas.
And so I got really curiousabout it.
I had a sense of what it means.
(18:56):
It means, you know, barackObama.
It means someone who has a kindof gravitational pull.
They have a magnetismism,they're grounded.
But when I went back to theancient world it was a roman
virtue.
It connotes seriousness anddignity, but of course newton
hadn't come along at that point.
(19:18):
And newton comes along muchlater and coins it for his
universal force, which gives itmuch more weight.
That's the real yeah literallybefore gravity.
did we see gravitas in the sameway?
Probably not, and that's it'sinteresting to me what it means
(19:39):
now, having written a book 10years ago and you know, as you
know, we, I would write itdifferently now, but the the
depth of it is still really true, which is that it is about a
grounded presence.
It is about being congruent,centered, true to your values.
(19:59):
But I think the most importantthing about it is that what
differentiates this groundedpresence of gravitas from
charisma is that it's not allabout you, right?
Common purpose, people whospeak to a common purpose,
something bigger than them, someserving something bigger than
them.
The football coach, the personwho runs the school choir you
(20:24):
know the community um leader,those people who runs the school
choir, you know the communityleader, those people are often
the people with the mostgravitas, not the people in the
public eye, because that's oftenthere's often.
I mean, we can think of anynumber of recent political
leaders who are highlycharismatic, but do they have
gravitas?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Jury's out yeah, and we will not.
Um, we will not put any of themon trial today, even though
some of them have already beenthrough that process in some
countries, but like, we'll leavethat one for for another day.
Uh, so so I was actually therefor one of the questions I was
going to ask you about.
Is this concept of rolemodeling, because you know this
is called leading people.
(21:03):
You know, really innerleadership and self-leadership
precedes really standing up, andI guess that's wrapped into
this gravitas thing.
And you, you just talked aboutcommunity leaders and you talked
about other people.
I grew up in a small village inIreland and some of the most
remarkable people did, you know,on the on their day-to-day jobs
(21:24):
, just did very ordinary jobs,but boy could they get things
done oh yeah boy, could they,you know, go in?
and there's one guy he'sactually a family relative saw
an opportunity to take a bigfield and turn it into four
football pitches.
Wow, so so that the main pitchwould be protected from training
(21:44):
.
And that, and not only did it's, did it create a training
facility so that, you know,didn't have to use the main
pitch.
It spawned ladies football.
Uh, it's unbelievable how manyteams, how many young people can
go there and develop.
And and this is this is somebodywho, for the early part of his
career, I think he drove a lorryfor a while and then he, he
(22:05):
built, he got into buildinghouses, and that I would not see
himself, as you know, the thearchetypical leader, but a man
who could just get so much donein the, in the community, just
by going out and setting exampleand being convinced and, as you
say, connecting into thiscommon purpose.
It was something that peoplecould rally behind.
So maybe let's elaborate onthat a bit.
(22:28):
And what you've seen outside ofthe big corporate world I mean,
you work with very high-poweredpeople.
I know that.
What else are you seeing outthere that says, you know, even
those high-powered people couldlearn from some of those, let's
say, people working those normalkind of community-type roles,
trying to get people on board toimprove the local society.
(22:58):
You're listening to LeadingPeople with me, gerry Murray,
and my guest this week isCaroline Goider.
In the next part of ourconversation, caroline shares
practical tools to unlock yourgravitas, engage your audience
and lead with authenticity.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Plus, discover her tips for overcoming imposter
syndrome and mastering that allimportant first minute of any
presentation and stay tuned forher special offer just for you.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Now back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
I mean, I think that's it.
I can't remember who says thisthe eulogy virtues it comes from
a wonderful book and I willtrack it down and send you the
author.
But I think it is the peoplewho, when you hear their eulogy,
you hear the depth of howthey've been serving those
around them, and a lot of thepeople who impress us on a
(23:56):
superficial level could learn agreat deal from the ability of
those people to deeply listen.
I mean, and the thing withgreat corporate leaders is the
truly great corporate leadersmarry both right.
They are both people who have adeep sense of value and a sense
(24:16):
of congruence and a sense ofempathy, you know, for the
people who work for them and thepeople they serve.
But I think the trouble withcorporate life is that the
pressure of it and the pressureof these jobs is insane makes us
very fight or flight, and fightor flight is tunnel vision.
(24:38):
It locks down empathy.
It locks down our ability toreally, when someone else smiles
, to smile back to hear thedepth of what someone is saying.
So one of the things I will sayto those leaders in corporate
life a lot is there are momentswhere you're going to need to
put the brakes on.
You know, I know the businessis going at a thousand miles an
(25:00):
hour at the moment.
If you want to lead, you needto be able to slow down for
people sometimes.
Slow down for people sometimes,and I think corporate leaders
can learn a lot from communityleaders, who just take more time
.
And it's a note I say to myself, because I'm a city dweller and
you know people in London loveto rush around, but actually
(25:21):
just stop, slow down, be there,be with people.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Take your time.
I mean it's neurologicallynecessary.
I mean this is the fascinatingthing.
You talked about some of thethings about the voice not
really being taught what happenswhen you breathe in, breathe
out.
At school level there's nothingtaught about how our brains
work.
I mean it might be referred toin biology class, but you know
this is such a fundamental partof how we run, how we operate.
(25:51):
It's our kind of operating,whatever you want to call it
system processing unit, whateveranalogy you want to use and yet
you know it's always, since Igot into neuroscience about 10
years ago, I kind of go what?
What's stopping educators fromactually teaching young kids and
and I know, teenagers andadults about just the basics?
(26:11):
You know, because if you try toI mean one of my guests that
will be coming out around maybebefore or after your podcast has
written a book aboutworkaholism.
You know, and you know it'sreally done some powerful
research into this and you knowthis idea that you just can keep
(26:32):
going as Superman or Superwoman, diminishing returns, is a
natural phenomenon.
The more you try to work, theless effective you're going to
be, and leaders need to be ableto step back because they need
judgment, judgment, and there'slots of research saying if you
don't put the brakes on, as yousay, and take time to just
(26:52):
observe and think and listen,you're likely your decision
making is likely to deteriorate100 just the way it is.
So it's interesting.
You talk, you talked a lot about, um, you talked a lot about
I've noticed in some of yourvideos even centering internal
dialogue and presence, and youmentioned there the whole thing
about fight or flight and thewhole tunnel vision thing.
(27:15):
They're quite related, aren'tthey?
So this idea of the voiceinside the head, the tensing of
the muscles, the foveal vision,tunnel vision thing, tunnel
vision thing, um, what, whathave you been able to develop as
techniques and tools to helppeople, uh, counter that and
deal with it and maybe reversethat tendency that they might
(27:37):
have?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
this is a funny one and it might not be the answer
that people are looking for, inthat I trained as a mindfulness
teacher last year and before.
Before that, I'd done a coupleof retreats with this teacher,
angus Forbes Robertson, and hadrealized that I was just like I
(27:58):
was saying, just like theleaders I was talking about
wired, I was adrenal, I wasrushing my inner voice, my head
was so noisy and one of theseretreats was obviously so
powerful that I got really illafterwards.
I got that horrible hundred daycough and I think it was a bit
of a wake up call.
(28:20):
And so ever since then I'vebeen meditating every morning,
you know, sometimes compassionmeditation, sometimes four
seasons breath, sometimesgratitude, something 15 minutes
every day.
And I've learned the deep truththat it's not the exercises I
teach, it's the presence I bring, because when I've meditated,
(28:42):
it's absolutely what we'resaying about the kind of
resonance of our presence, ourvoice.
It changes other people'spresence in the room and that's
partly vocal.
I think it's partly how I showup physically.
So my invitation to anybodywho's wanting to play with
gravitas is that a little bit ofmindfulness meditation every
(29:07):
morning we are.
What we repeatedly do, asAristotle tells us is the thing
that is going to make thebiggest difference.
Simple as that.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I'm going to use that as a moment to rewind back 20
years.
One of the core things that alot of people don't appreciate
this about NLP is it's reallyabout state management at the.
At its core, it's like how dowe manage our thoughts and our
physiology and our variousemotions to be in this, the most
(29:39):
useful, resourceful state wecan be in to achieve what we
want to achieve?
Um, and what you're talkingabout in so many ways is is
really about if you can't getyour, if you can't be in the
state that's most useful in thatmoment, and states are
contagious.
So what happens is you're goingto show up with a presence that
is not so useful for you, butit's not going to be useful for
(30:05):
other people either, is it?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
not going to be useful for other people either,
is it?
And I think the thing that'smost interesting to me is that
our brains are not good atassessing state, and so we can
think I'm calm.
The practice is all just a lot.
I mean and musicians know thisway better than I, right, my dad
(30:30):
is a saxophonist, a jazzsaxophonist, you know, it is
just show up every day, show upevery day.
Don't try, just show up, justdo it, just do it, just do it.
And if you keep just doing it,something changes at a cellular
level yeah and it's notsomething that the brain can
rationalize, because it's it'sunconscious it is, uh, it's more
(30:53):
autonomous nervous systemthat's doing this.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And if we were to explore it further, what we've
been exposed to, uh, during ourlife is conditioning how our
brains have evolved to this.
So we've been around people whoare constantly agitated and
impatient, etc.
Yes, there's nothing wrong withagitation and impatience.
In some context you might needit.
It just may not be the mostuseful thing.
(31:19):
But if that's your defaultbehavior and that's why the
mindfulness in the neuroscience,the mindfulness activates the
ventromedial prefrontal cortex,which is our ability to sort of
kind of rationalize and takestock of what's going on in the
rest of our body.
Whether we're in fight or flightor we can be overexcited, our
reward systems can be creatingimpulsivity and all sorts of
(31:41):
crazy stuff on the other side ofthe equation but it's that I
was teaching it yesterdayactually.
So, basically, you know how dowe put the braking system on?
What mindfulness is doing issaying just take a moment to
take stock and and no judgmentjust like what's?
What's, what's just happeningat this moment, and is this what
I want?
I mean, you can ask yourself isthis useful for what I want to
(32:03):
do next?
It's not that complicated, it'shard, it's not that easy to do
physically.
The concept is quite simple tounderstand, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
And I think that's where I got to is that I had
thought I was doing it until Igot to the deeper level and went
oh okay, that's it.
And probably if I keep going in10 years I'll go.
Oh, no, no, that's it.
And probably if I keep going in10 years I'll go oh no, no,
that's it.
But what's quite nice is that,you know, as we get older, there
is, there are deeper layers,and I think that's quite a nice
thought, that there's more tofind.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So the Buddhas need to move over Caroline's on her
way.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I think I'm some way off that.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
In my next life.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
My next life maybe or the life after that.
Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Okay, so why is it so important for leaders to master
the gravitas?
I want to come back to thisagain, like why is it so
important, particularly intoday's world, that we know this
fast-paced, technologicallycrazy place we're living in,
this world we're living in?
(33:11):
Why is it so important forleaders to master this?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
it's everything you've already said, jerry, in
the sense that if you arestanding in front of a group in
a room or on teams, you arecreating state, and what you
make people feel, as any adperson, any marketeer knows, is
what happens first before theyvalidate, justify through logic.
(33:36):
So, for a leader to have apresence to their own state and
an ability to move others into amore productive state Once
they've got the strategy and thebusiness, once they've done the
MBA, I can't think of anythingmore important than helping
(33:58):
those you are talking to getinto a productive state, can you
?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
No, no, and having done an MBA, I also know what
that feels like.
They didn't teach much aboutstates or anything.
I don't even know if Goldmanhad published his book on
emotional intelligence yet atthat stage.
That's how long ago it was forme.
You talk about overcomingimposter syndrome.
(34:32):
So how does that manifestitself then when you're working
with somebody?
Is this sort of a part of arealization, before they can
embrace the gravitas, or justexplain, perhaps for our
listeners, how imposter syndromerelates to the work you're
doing in terms of gravitasmethod?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's fascinating, it's funny.
Actually, on Monday I ran asession pretty much on that
subject for a big media companyand we can talk about where we
got to with that, my feeling,with imposter syndrome, which is
that sense of they're going tofind me out.
I'm not good enough.
I think we all have it beyondyou know the dark triad of a few
(35:11):
psychopaths and narcissistsmaybe don't, but I think it's a.
It's a human condition.
I notice it in myself becausethat's all we can ever really go
on when I'm adrenal, when myhead is noisy, when I'm out
there in the world.
In comparison, which I thinkfight or flight, you know it's a
(35:32):
survival mechanism, isn't it?
Who's bigger, who's better,who's faster?
Who do I punch?
Not literally.
I hope you realize.
Yes metaphorically.
Yes, metaphorically so for me,when I'm working with a leader
who says, oh, I mean this clientyesterday, it wasn't named, but
(35:52):
there was a feeling of they'regoing to find me out.
The two antidotes that I thinkfor any of us who feel it.
I had a big gig in the US inthe summer and just before I
walked out on stage the nightbefore, I got a huge dose of
imposter syndrome and I go twoways with it.
The first one is I really stepinto service.
(36:14):
How can I help this audience?
What have they asked for?
What's the one thing?
Because one of the things thatgoes on in my head is there's
probably 10 other people inAmerica who could do this, maybe
better, right, and that'sreally useless.
That's not helpful.
So what?
So?
What can?
Well?
What, caroline, can you bringthen?
What's the thing that you bringthat no one else can lead with
(36:37):
that?
And then the other thing thatreally helps me is just to quiet
my nervous system, because Iknow that when I walk out in
front of the audience or if it'sfor someone doing a team's all
hands when you log in, there'sgoing to be a spike of
adrenaline because we care aboutit if your head is quiet and
(36:57):
your body and breath are calm.
When you meet that spike ofadrenaline, as any musician
knows, it spikes performance.
But if you're too adrenal, ifyour head head is too noisy,
when you meet that adrenaline,it will damage your performance,
it will make you rush, it willmake you stutter, you will
(37:18):
respond in a reactive way.
That is not productive.
So step into service, think howcan I help?
And then just get quiet.
Now that presupposes that youhave done a shed load of
preparation before that.
So this is not a wing itcharter ever.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
prepare like a pro, get it absolutely ready that you
can walk on stage and be quietand so that that does bring me
to uh, you you mentionedsomewhere I've seen mentioned,
that you pride yourself onproviding practical, simple
tools that are immediatelyuseful, and let's just play with
(37:57):
the one you've.
Lots of people probably canidentify with what you've just
described there, that sort of ohmy God, why am I here?
And oh, my whole system isoverreacting in that Because I
also teach some of this stuffand I've noticed a lot of things
over the years.
So the preparation thing uh,let's just clear up one or two
(38:17):
things on that.
If you have slides, it doesn'tmean reading your slides 10
times, it means actually doingit.
But what I wanted to get to wasthe importance of that first
minute or two would in anypresentation.
Could you talk?
I'm I'm pretty sure you'vethought a lot about this and
you've taught it many times thatfirst minute or two that you,
when you go out, what, what'sthe advice for people?
(38:41):
Because I, once you myexperience as a musician or
anything, once the first twominutes go and you get into the
zone, you're, you're pretty muchset for the rest of it.
But tell it, tell our listeners, a little bit about how to do
that.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I mean, I I think you've got to start right at the
top of the rehearsal processand think about intentionality
why have I been invited here?
And what's in it for theaudience.
Because if you're beginningnailing, a really great start is
everything, isn't it?
And so in your preparation, toreally be clear on what the
(39:17):
audience need and to really havea strong first two or three
minutes that you're reallyexcited about.
I often work with comedians,stand-up comedian directors.
You know I've occasionallyworked with brilliant Neil
Malarkey at the Comedy Store,because I'm no comic, you know,
(39:37):
I will never be, perhaps in oneof those next lives.
But I know that comedydirectors are absolutely the
best you get to really give youa sharp start, because great
comedy I'm in awe of, awe of.
I mean, it's such an art formis the, it's almost poetic in
its editing.
And so if I've got a big,daunting, scary gig, I just make
(40:01):
sure that those first threeminutes are razor sharp.
And then, as you walk out andthen you know any musician knows
this it's a lot about as youwalk out on stage, air on face,
clothes on skin, quiet mind, youknow presence to each step you
get out on stage there's amoment where, like a rocket ship
(40:25):
taking off, there's a stillness, a quiet, because most people
rush, that moment they see theaudience and they goically and
off they go.
It's a kind of defensive,aggressive reaction.
If you can stop, breathe out,really see them as old friends,
(40:45):
let the breath come back in,easy, relaxed.
My coach said to me like you'restanding at your fireside with
a glass of cognac, then yournervous system goes, you're safe
and if you're prepped, it's fun.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
At that point even as an introvert, I can say it's
fun yeah, yeah, because it's theinteresting thing, um, is your
relationship with time, wouldyou?
You can experience that extra20 seconds as as like two
minutes.
The audience is probablygetting curious.
They're really anticipating andthat's a fantastic state for
(41:22):
them to go into.
Um, and it is really nailingthose, and I I get people to
really learn almost those two orthree sentences off by heart,
everything, and rehearse it Now,if we get that right, and then
what goes in between goes inbetween because sometimes we
forget stuff and whatever thenext piece, the next important
(41:42):
piece, is always how do youleave them in that last minute?
So what's the trick for that?
Because you want to walk off.
The way our brains workactually is it's probably more
likely to remember that lastimpact at the emotional level
than anything else.
So what advice do you givepeople on that one?
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I learned a lot from Chris Head, who was.
I had a couple of coaches forthe TED Talk, but Chris Head
really really came in and helpedme nail the framing and he said
to me you need a strongerfinish Because I think good
comedy he's a stand-up comedydirector he said, you know, it's
not quite sharp enough.
(42:24):
And so what we did?
We set up an opening which wasopening up a loop of what's the
secret to great speaking.
And then there was a closedloop at the end which was the
surprising secret to publicspeaking is knowing when to shut
your mouth and there's abuild-up to it through the talk.
(42:46):
But it's, it's both, it'sparadoxical, it they've been
waiting for the close and therewas a kind of meta thing which
it felt quite fun to be thatplayful with it, so that I knew
that I was going to land theplane.
If I think, if you think aboutthe takeoff and then the landing
, I knew that I could land theplane really neatly and enjoy
(43:10):
that flourish.
And I've slightly got addictedto that strong beginning, strong
finish.
If I'm a bit honest, I've gotinto a habit of opening up a
loop of the beginning of a storyand closing the loop of the end
of a story, which I think isbecoming an overused habit.
But for those of you who arenot overusing that habit, you
(43:30):
can open up a story and thenwait through the presentation to
tell them what happened.
I think I'm using it too muchat the moment, but that's a
whole other story.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Those of you who can remember the heyday of Billy
Connolly will know that BillyConnolly would start and you'd
have about five differentstories before the punchline and
every one of them was probablycomical and that's the impact of
it.
And, of course, if you'rehanging out with comedians, as
you say, they have mastered theart of.
There's no one better, becausebecause, because the comedy
(44:03):
profession is, is, is deadly.
I mean you, you, you, you knowthe way.
The comedy store and that, orwas it the comedy store in
london I think I went to a fewtimes, like you, if you weren't
really there and making theimpact, within two minutes
somebody walk on and say off,off, you go, mate, that's it,
you've, that's your comedycareer over.
It was brutal, um, and and yetthey learn.
(44:25):
Most comedians are committed,that want to be successful, will
come back again.
They get knocked down and theygo.
I need to get better at this.
How do I walk out there in sucha way that that first thing I
say just hooks that audience?
And and how will I beremembered when I walk off the
stage, which of course makes itdifficult for the next comedy
comedian coming on, who you know?
(44:46):
But all comedy comedians knowthis, that that the guy on
before is likely to deliver agreat punchline at the end, so I
need to make sure I can walkout and match it.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I mean, a lot of people out there don't realize
you might get the opportunity todo a TED or a TEDx talk, and
it's a fantastic experience, asCaroline will no doubt endorse,
and it's really, really hardwork to get prepared for it.
It's grueling if they'readhering to the guidelines and
yet you come out the other endfeeling like you've broken
(45:22):
through.
So that's what I felt Like eventhough I think if I went back
and did it again, I wouldprobably be able to do it much
better, et cetera, et cetera.
I would say to everybody outthere, go watch caroline's ted
talk and then you'll know whatshe's talking about, because it
was.
It's incredibly good, it's very, very good.
So, caroline, coming to the end, let's pull a lot of this
(45:43):
together now.
So, thinking about the conceptof self-leadership, and, and,
and, therefore that translatinginto leading others and getting
others to follow you, uh, whatthree insights or takeaways
would you like to leave ouraudience with?
Uh, that they could basicallytake from this conversation
we're having today?
Speaker 3 (46:02):
I think, if we start with the idea of intentionality,
that there's a lovely I do lovea bit of ancient world, unless
you know what harbour you'resailing to.
No wind is the right wind.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Seneca.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
That is what good communication is all about.
Then I suppose we get to MarcusAurelius we cannot lead others
until we first lead ourselves,until we first lead ourselves,
manage your own state, whetherthat's going for a run, going
for a walk, sitting quietly for10 minutes before that meeting,
(46:38):
learning to meditate, whateverit is.
And the final piece, which isHorace I think I hope I'm right
Whatever I feel they feel, thevoice is, as you say, the most
powerful instrument that thereis.
It can make people feel abillion different states, and
(46:58):
you, as a speaker, have theability to take them on a
journey.
So start to notice people whotake you on a journey when they
speak, and then start to becurious as to when you do it for
others, because that the youthat's gonna move an audience,
and there's reason.
You know, I say this as anintrovert who was very, very
awkward for a long time.
There is no more lovely feelingthan knowing you've helped and
(47:20):
moved an audience.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's, I think it's, what life's about really and
maybe just to qualify this,because people, obviously we
talked about the TED talking andall this stuff the audience it
can moving an audience of one,can't it?
Speaker 3 (47:33):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Gravitas is not just uniquely for walking out and
doing those showcase gigs, no,no.
It could be that one or twopeople that you have to or you
walk up to in a business orcourt situation and at the end
of it you walk away and theyfeel wow.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
I think it's back to that you know, community leader
piece as a parent, as a friend,as you know that your ability to
be with someone so they feelheard and listened to and
understood, that's what this isabout.
It's not about impressingpeople.
It's not about being clever.
It's not about being clever.
It's not about doing a greatbig talk.
(48:10):
It's about show up and makepeople feel seen and heard and
help them move through thingsthrough your own presence.
That's that's what it's aboutand through your own presence.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
That's the greatest present you can give them that's
it.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
That's the ending we wanted, thank you well, I just
made that one up.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I didn't rehearse it so.
So, caroline, what's next foryou?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
I am in the midst and I say this with a slight sense
of these.
Things always take longer thanyou think.
We've created a course calledmaster your speaking, which
takes everything I learned fromdoing a tedx and turns it into a
one-hour self-paced course.
So if you are having to do apresentation or a speech and you
need quickly to pull yourstories, your intentionality,
(49:01):
your energy together, thiscourse is designed to help you
do that and we're very excitedabout launching it.
It's taken a while to produce.
Lots of love and care has goneinto it and it is coming out in
a couple of weeks very good and,um, how can people get in touch
with you?
and I do believe that, mayberelated to some of this, you may
(49:23):
even have something as aspecial offer or gift for people
who reach out immediately tothis yeah, if anybody links in
with me, caroline goida,g-o-y-d-e-r, we can send you a
gravitas course, a free gravitasvideo course, which is
basically blinkist for the bookgravitas, and we can also send
(49:44):
you a full set of gravitasaudios.
So just message me on linkedinand we will sort it out for you
yeah, so the?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
so the first couple of people who reach out to you
on LinkedIn and say they listento this podcast, of course, and
you will kindly grant them thatwonderful offer of that course.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
It'll be our pleasure .
Speaker 1 (50:06):
So, caroline, as ever , thanks for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withme and my listeners here today.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
It's been a complete delight, Gerry.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
A key misconception that people have about
resilience is that we think it'sa personality trait.
We think that, look, I've gonethrough all these things, I've
managed through all thesedemanding phases, I've led large
teams through this, whateverI've done.
Therefore, it's who I am, it'spart of my personality.
(50:42):
And here's the trap because I'mthinking it's part of my
personality, inherent to me.
Of course I don't need to takeany action about it, because
that's who I am and that's atrap.
It's not a personality trait.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
My next guest is Marie-Hélène Pauletier, a
psychologist and resilienceexpert and author of the
Resilience Plan A StrategicApproach to Optimizing your Work
Performance and Mental Healthoptimizing your work performance
and mental health.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Maria Lynn shares her strategies for creating a
personalized resilience plan andhow leaders can foster
resilience not only inthemselves, but also in their
teams and organizations.
This conversation is packedwith insights to help you thrive
, no matter what challenges youface.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
You won't want to miss it and remember before our
next full episode, there's a OneSimple Thing episode waiting
for you A quick and actionabletip to help you lead and live
better.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
Welcome to Leading People with me Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use,
Whether you're here for usefultools or thought
thought-provoking ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
How do you develop the kind of presence that
inspires trust, connection andaction?
Carolyn Goider, a TEDx speakerwith over 10 million views and
author of three books Gravitas,find your Voice and the Star
Qualities joins me on LeadingPeople to share how leaders can
unlock their inner confidenceand connect authentically with
their teams.
In this conversation, Carolinereveals why Gravitas isn't about
(01:20):
charisma and how to cultivateyour Gravitas the transformative
power of intention andstorytelling in leadership and
practical tools to find yourvoice and lead with purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Get ready to rethink what it means to truly lead with
presence.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Caroline Goiter welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Gerry, it is delightful to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, caroline, for the benefit of our listeners,
you've published several booksand we'll get to these shortly.
And just before we came on, wewere just reminiscing that our
paths crossed almost 20 yearsago in the world of
neurolinguistic programming, orNLP, and we were just sharing
some stories from that.
But first, so our listeners canget to know you better, how did
(02:12):
you get to where you are today?
Was there like a person, placeor thing or an event or an
epiphany moment?
And why did you choose thiscareer that you have today?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
really, in this with the Gravitas method, I guess I
must be quite stubborn because Ifell into this path because I
wasn't very good at it.
I trained as an actor and Ifound, although I was excited
about training as an actor, Iwasn't naturally great at it.
(02:45):
And they said to me you've gotno presence, you're not centered
, your alignment is off, you'renot breathing the right way, and
because I'd never thought aboutany of these things, it was a
horrible shock.
But why I say I must have beenquite stubborn is because I
didn't let it set me backpermanently and I really had to
(03:07):
unlearn old habits and learn newones.
And now I can say they wouldn'tsay that to me if I went to
drama school now and my life'swork, I guess, is to share that
epiphany with other people, thatwhen someone says you don't
have enough gravitas or presenceor you're not centered, it's
(03:27):
not permanent, you can change itand I love people getting that
same epiphany.
That's why I do what I do it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You say that I was yesterday.
I do this regular webinar atthe EU called learning to learn,
and somebody asked a questionyesterday and you might laugh at
the this one was how do I mean,how do I deal with failure?
Um, and you know, we have thatwonderful concept that we
embrace in in the world of nop,which is there's no failure,
(03:59):
only feedback, and so it was anopportunity to to reframe, and
actually what you've just kindof articulated here is actually
not a bad example, of otherpeople might have just said, oh
well, that's it, and you decidedno, that's not it, I'm going to
find another way to do this, isthat right?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, it really was that, and something in me wanted
to get better.
And I go back to Samuel Beckettyou you know a great Irishman
who said fail, fail again, failbetter.
And I think at some level Iknew that that's what I was
doing, although if you'd askedme all those years ago I was
pretty lost and I was prettyupset about it.
(04:36):
Now it was, as you say, ahugely useful lesson.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I think most people in any artistic endeavor would
identify with what you said.
Um, I don't know any.
I actually I do know someamazing, like musicians, for
example, who are really at thepinnacle of the really at the
top of their career and theystill think they have to get
better and the rest of us are inawe.
So it's uh, it's good, but it'sa part of the growth mindset
(05:06):
thing it's about, you know,continuously learning and
improving and you know we'renever done.
I think dan gilbert, the famouspsychologist in america, said
human beings are a work inprogress that mistakenly think
they're finished.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So yeah, I have no sense of being finished in any
way.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Great so, so, um, and I've been tuning into your work
on and off, particularly theselast couple of years, and I've
been incredibly impressed, forexample, with your TED Talk that
you did and we also shared somestories there that took some
work.
Caroline Walker talk andliterally should watch that TED
(05:45):
talk.
It's full of wonderful,wonderful techniques and ways of
engaging audience and youmentioned theatre and you know a
lot of what you've.
I think your was was your firstbook, this one here, was it?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It was indeed Wow, my first child my first child is
just.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I just held up for the listeners the star qualities
, which seems to be a bit like amodeling exercise you did with
people who really were good atthis.
Would you like to just startoff talking about your books?
Maybe mention that one firstand then how it evolved to where
you are today and what you'reactually focused on with this
gravitas myth?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's funny because I was working at Central School of
Speech and Drama and I had acoach I mean, you and I both
know the power of coaching andmy coach said if you want to
step out of the shadow of thisdrama school, you should write a
book.
Seemed utterly terrifying.
And so she said and if you wantto write a book, you want to
talk to actors.
And she said, because you workat Central, you can get to some
(06:48):
really top actors.
So I started writing to actorsbecause I thought I want to, as
you say, model confidence, andA-list actors know about finding
confidence.
And she said to me don't justwrite to someone on East Enders,
you need to write to the A-list.
And she gave me the most usefuladvice that I have taught to
(07:09):
leaders all over the world since, which is, if you want to get
to someone, google the threethings that they talk about that
are most valuable to them, thedeepest values, and find out how
they correlate with yours.
And when you get to the centerof that Venn diagram, put those
three values in the first lineof the email, because why would
(07:31):
we say no to something thatspeaks to our deepest values?
In the first week I had HelenMirren, cate Blanchett and Cate
Winslet, and then of course youcan write to agents and you can
write to other actors.
So I wrote to literary agentsand said I have these three
actors and she said don't writeto any old agent, write to the
(07:51):
top agents.
So I wrote a letter to JohnnyGeller at the time, who now runs
Curtis Brown, and I knew thathe had been an actor, so there
was some intelligence there interms of this project might
interest him.
He comes back same day.
I like the sound of this Comein.
So it was in some waysincredibly fast.
(08:15):
But the lesson in it was if youspeak to people's deepest
values and you are congruentabout how they mesh with yours,
why would anybody say no?
And that lesson has kind ofbeen with me ever since and it
led to gravitas and then findyour voice.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
But none of it would have happened without that
really elegant piece of coachingand I suppose to anybody trying
to decode that it's a littlebit the what's in it for me.
You, you, once you get to thevalues level with people, uh, it
tends to resonate and they,they really see how you would uh
(08:51):
connect well with them, rightthe why of who they are, rather
than the what this project isabout yeah, too often people
promote themselves to try andbuild.
I suppose they're trying tobuild credibility, but, as you
say, often you want to firstconnect before you try to build
credit credibility.
You, you found that magic forme, so I'm going to take a note
(09:12):
of that.
I hope our listeners are takingnotes of that.
It because it, yeah, and itmakes sense.
Um, so you went on from thea-list and and then you, would
it be fair to say you, you, youfocused in on a particular area
of of this presence and andcentering and with which?
(09:33):
With the voice.
But finding your voice is notjust about the, the, the vocal
quality.
It's got to do with a lot ofother things.
So maybe you can unpack thatfor our listeners on leading
people.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
The goal is to bring you cutting-edge thought
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Speaker 3 (10:30):
It's something that increasingly, I am almost
annoyed about.
Maybe annoyed is the wrong word, but it frustrates me that in a
culture where we talk a lotabout mindfulness and we talk a
lot about things likecenteredness and presence, I
hear breathing experts you knowpeople who teach breathing as a
job not making the connectionbetween the out-breath and
speech or song, and I thinkthere's a huge missing link for
(10:54):
us globally around the voice asexhalation, because if the
exhalation is voice, then apause is an in-breath and
suddenly you're into the wholeof the somatic wealth that we
have as humans.
And because most of us arecompletely unconscious about how
speech works, we're just notharnessing that and it really
(11:17):
frustrates me.
I think that awareness willcome, probably soon, but there
might be a reason in educationwhy it's not taught.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
If I'm being a little bit cynical, okay, um, it's
interesting you say that, um,one of one of the breathing
techniques that I was taught, uh, 15, 16 years ago, was based on
huna.
You know the hawaiian.
One of the things that we paidattention to there was when you
breathe out, you're actuallybreathing energy.
Uh, into the world.
(11:48):
Gorgeous, and and and where itcomes from, apparently, is when
somebody wasn't well, they did.
They defined this in theirculture that there was something
wrong with their energy andthat people would get together
and sit around a bed, forexample, if somebody's not well,
and breathe what you know,focus on positive thoughts and
(12:10):
breathe in and breathe outpositive energy, lovely, help
the person heal and in some waysit may not be quite the exact
same thing, but, as you say it's.
It's like what's happening whenwe breathe in, what's happening
when we breathe out.
It's not, it's not just amechanical in and out thing that
keeps us alive.
There's other stuff there.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's soul.
I mean, it's harnessing soul.
There's a beautiful word inWelsh which I am going to not
pronounce correctly, so thosewho are Welsh natives or speak
Welsh forgive me.
It sounds, I think, like hul,and it comes from the
Anglo-Saxon idea of a boat witha mast and a sail that's
(12:54):
billowing out.
You know the boat is movingswiftly and if you think of a
wonderful Welsh choir peoplestanding tall, the mast is
strong, the breath is full, thesound is powerful I think for
all of us, we could all learn toharness that better, because
(13:15):
when we find our voices we arepowerful.
You know, on so many levels andso much of modern life staring
at phones, hunched over, sittingat desks you know that as a
musician, it takes that poweraway.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and as a musician, actually I have four
daughters and every one of themsings and plays instruments and
it's just the most amazing.
We really don't appreciate howbeautiful the voice is.
One of my colleagues in theband used to say he was a violin
player.
So violin players have to bevery.
They don't have frets on theviolin, you know to know where
(13:51):
to put their fingers, but hewants.
He used to say the mostpowerful and beautiful
instrument of all is the voice.
And actually it is so true Inso many cultures where they
couldn't afford musicalinstruments, they used the voice
or combinations of voices tocreate beautiful music.
And maybe that's where theWelsh choir thing grows out of.
You know, obviously maybe aclassical tradition of
(14:13):
harmonizing, but it's hard tobeat.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh, powerful, yeah, and it changes us.
So let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Let's go beyond just the vocal aspect of this.
And what does it mean to findyour voice?
And then how does that leadinto gravitas and all the great
things that come out of that.
So you know, at a moremetaphorical level, what does it
mean to find your voice.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I'm going to go to a client I was working with
yesterday actually, whoobviously I would not name and I
won't even name where she works.
She's a very senior leader andshe said to me they've gone
through a lot of transformation.
I have big, all hands and I getonto the call and I feel like
I'm in an exam.
I have a script and I say itand when she walks into the room
(15:01):
with you she's full of presence, she's carries herself
beautifully, her voice ispowerful and we watched one of
her all hands and she washunched over her laptop,
sounding like it wasn't reallyher words and it it was.
There's something about thepressure of a script, a
performance, or being judged,because maybe you're taking
(15:24):
people through a transformationthat is difficult, that they're
not enjoying.
It was like she had slightlyshrunk and the journey we went
through in a half day coachingsession was to help her find the
intention, because I don't knowabout you, jerry, but I feel
that a lot of powerfulperformance is about
(15:44):
intentionality.
I said what do you want them tofeel?
And she was really surprised bythat question because she
thought what do I want them tothink?
So we set her intention.
We thought about story, becausestory, I think, is a really
beautiful way to tap into thingsthat matter to you.
And I said what are the storiesof the green shoots, of success
(16:06):
in this transformation?
And she started to tell me astory and I said we need to use
that, because stories will helpchange the audience's mindset
from the pain of transformationto the potential.
Yeah, and so she used a storyas a metaphor for change, and
then we mind mapped it with lotsof colorful sharpies on a big
(16:26):
piece of a3 and she suddenlycould see that this was fun, it
was creative, that it wasn't anessay anymore, and she went in
three hours from someone smalland hunched and flat on a team's
meeting to someone who I know,when she does it, will be
standing passionate, full ofenergy and persuasive, and that
(16:50):
was always in her.
But you know, as you know, goodcoaching is really just about
going to someone.
I trust you've got this.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Let's draw it out it's almost like you have the
key and you can unlock thatlittle part, that door that they
never sort of opening becausethey just thought, well, that
that door's key and you canunlock that little part, that
door that they never saw openingbecause they just thought, well
, that door's locked.
I can't do that I can't do it.
Yeah, I have at least two orthree stories came into my head
of similar experiences withpeople who were being scripted
(17:19):
and basically threw the scriptaway and said if you were to
just tell me now over a coffeewhat it is you want people to
take away, what would it be?
And then they find their voice.
In that way, they flow.
Say what stops you from sayingthat?
Say, well, I've been told Ihave to follow the script and
you go.
Is it you?
(17:39):
And they go.
No, that's why you're havingchallenges.
And you get back to valuesagain.
It's not.
And you get back to values.
Again, you know it's notcongruent with who they feel
they are.
And then, of course, I supposepeople would say you know, if
you have to script thesemessages to that degree, you
know, is everything reallyworking the way the organization
(18:01):
wants it to work, if they haveto do that?
So anyway, I'm now curious toevolve into the concept of
gravitas, which I think probablyflows naturally from this world
of voice and presence.
So gravitas is a very, veryinteresting word linguistically.
I'm not even sure if somelanguages could translate it.
(18:23):
I live in a very multilingualworld.
So why Gravitas and what's thegoal of what you're trying to
communicate with that word?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's funny because it came about because clients were
asking me for the word.
They would say you know, Ithink of a big telco.
They would say one or two ofour executives need more
gravitas.
And so I got really curiousabout it.
I had a sense of what it means.
(18:56):
It means, you know, barackObama.
It means someone who has a kindof gravitational pull.
They have a magnetismism,they're grounded.
But when I went back to theancient world it was a roman
virtue.
It connotes seriousness anddignity, but of course newton
hadn't come along at that point.
(19:18):
And newton comes along muchlater and coins it for his
universal force, which gives itmuch more weight.
That's the real yeah literallybefore gravity.
did we see gravitas in the sameway?
Probably not, and that's it'sinteresting to me what it means
(19:39):
now, having written a book 10years ago and you know, as you
know, we, I would write itdifferently now, but the the
depth of it is still really true, which is that it is about a
grounded presence.
It is about being congruent,centered, true to your values.
(19:59):
But I think the most importantthing about it is that what
differentiates this groundedpresence of gravitas from
charisma is that it's not allabout you, right?
Common purpose, people whospeak to a common purpose,
something bigger than them, someserving something bigger than
them.
The football coach, the personwho runs the school choir you
(20:24):
know the community um leader,those people who runs the school
choir, you know the communityleader, those people are often
the people with the mostgravitas, not the people in the
public eye, because that's oftenthere's often.
I mean, we can think of anynumber of recent political
leaders who are highlycharismatic, but do they have
gravitas?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Jury's out yeah, and we will not.
Um, we will not put any of themon trial today, even though
some of them have already beenthrough that process in some
countries, but like, we'll leavethat one for for another day.
Uh, so so I was actually therefor one of the questions I was
going to ask you about.
Is this concept of rolemodeling, because you know this
is called leading people.
(21:03):
You know, really innerleadership and self-leadership
precedes really standing up, andI guess that's wrapped into
this gravitas thing.
And you, you just talked aboutcommunity leaders and you talked
about other people.
I grew up in a small village inIreland and some of the most
remarkable people did, you know,on the on their day-to-day jobs
(21:24):
, just did very ordinary jobs,but boy could they get things
done oh yeah boy, could they,you know, go in?
and there's one guy he'sactually a family relative saw
an opportunity to take a bigfield and turn it into four
football pitches.
Wow, so so that the main pitchwould be protected from training
(21:44):
.
And that, and not only did it's, did it create a training
facility so that, you know,didn't have to use the main
pitch.
It spawned ladies football.
Uh, it's unbelievable how manyteams, how many young people can
go there and develop.
And and this is this is somebodywho, for the early part of his
career, I think he drove a lorryfor a while and then he, he
(22:05):
built, he got into buildinghouses, and that I would not see
himself, as you know, the thearchetypical leader, but a man
who could just get so much donein the, in the community, just
by going out and setting exampleand being convinced and, as you
say, connecting into thiscommon purpose.
It was something that peoplecould rally behind.
So maybe let's elaborate onthat a bit.
(22:28):
And what you've seen outside ofthe big corporate world I mean,
you work with very high-poweredpeople.
I know that.
What else are you seeing outthere that says, you know, even
those high-powered people couldlearn from some of those, let's
say, people working those normalkind of community-type roles,
trying to get people on board toimprove the local society.
(22:58):
You're listening to LeadingPeople with me, gerry Murray,
and my guest this week isCaroline Goider.
In the next part of ourconversation, caroline shares
practical tools to unlock yourgravitas, engage your audience
and lead with authenticity.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Plus, discover her tips for overcoming imposter
syndrome and mastering that allimportant first minute of any
presentation and stay tuned forher special offer just for you.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Now back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
I mean, I think that's it.
I can't remember who says thisthe eulogy virtues it comes from
a wonderful book and I willtrack it down and send you the
author.
But I think it is the peoplewho, when you hear their eulogy,
you hear the depth of howthey've been serving those
around them, and a lot of thepeople who impress us on a
(23:56):
superficial level could learn agreat deal from the ability of
those people to deeply listen.
I mean, and the thing withgreat corporate leaders is the
truly great corporate leadersmarry both right.
They are both people who have adeep sense of value and a sense
(24:16):
of congruence and a sense ofempathy, you know, for the
people who work for them and thepeople they serve.
But I think the trouble withcorporate life is that the
pressure of it and the pressureof these jobs is insane makes us
very fight or flight, and fightor flight is tunnel vision.
(24:38):
It locks down empathy.
It locks down our ability toreally, when someone else smiles
, to smile back to hear thedepth of what someone is saying.
So one of the things I will sayto those leaders in corporate
life a lot is there are momentswhere you're going to need to
put the brakes on.
You know, I know the businessis going at a thousand miles an
(25:00):
hour at the moment.
If you want to lead, you needto be able to slow down for
people sometimes.
Slow down for people sometimes,and I think corporate leaders
can learn a lot from communityleaders, who just take more time
.
And it's a note I say to myself, because I'm a city dweller and
you know people in London loveto rush around, but actually
(25:21):
just stop, slow down, be there,be with people.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Take your time.
I mean it's neurologicallynecessary.
I mean this is the fascinatingthing.
You talked about some of thethings about the voice not
really being taught what happenswhen you breathe in, breathe
out.
At school level there's nothingtaught about how our brains
work.
I mean it might be referred toin biology class, but you know
this is such a fundamental partof how we run, how we operate.
(25:51):
It's our kind of operating,whatever you want to call it
system processing unit, whateveranalogy you want to use and yet
you know it's always, since Igot into neuroscience about 10
years ago, I kind of go what?
What's stopping educators fromactually teaching young kids and
and I know, teenagers andadults about just the basics?
(26:11):
You know, because if you try toI mean one of my guests that
will be coming out around maybebefore or after your podcast has
written a book aboutworkaholism.
You know, and you know it'sreally done some powerful
research into this and you knowthis idea that you just can keep
(26:32):
going as Superman or Superwoman, diminishing returns, is a
natural phenomenon.
The more you try to work, theless effective you're going to
be, and leaders need to be ableto step back because they need
judgment, judgment, and there'slots of research saying if you
don't put the brakes on, as yousay, and take time to just
(26:52):
observe and think and listen,you're likely your decision
making is likely to deteriorate100 just the way it is.
So it's interesting.
You talk, you talked a lot about, um, you talked a lot about
I've noticed in some of yourvideos even centering internal
dialogue and presence, and youmentioned there the whole thing
about fight or flight and thewhole tunnel vision thing.
(27:15):
They're quite related, aren'tthey?
So this idea of the voiceinside the head, the tensing of
the muscles, the foveal vision,tunnel vision thing, tunnel
vision thing, um, what, whathave you been able to develop as
techniques and tools to helppeople, uh, counter that and
deal with it and maybe reversethat tendency that they might
(27:37):
have?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
this is a funny one and it might not be the answer
that people are looking for, inthat I trained as a mindfulness
teacher last year and before.
Before that, I'd done a coupleof retreats with this teacher,
angus Forbes Robertson, and hadrealized that I was just like I
(27:58):
was saying, just like theleaders I was talking about
wired, I was adrenal, I wasrushing my inner voice, my head
was so noisy and one of theseretreats was obviously so
powerful that I got really illafterwards.
I got that horrible hundred daycough and I think it was a bit
of a wake up call.
(28:20):
And so ever since then I'vebeen meditating every morning,
you know, sometimes compassionmeditation, sometimes four
seasons breath, sometimesgratitude, something 15 minutes
every day.
And I've learned the deep truththat it's not the exercises I
teach, it's the presence I bring, because when I've meditated,
(28:42):
it's absolutely what we'resaying about the kind of
resonance of our presence, ourvoice.
It changes other people'spresence in the room and that's
partly vocal.
I think it's partly how I showup physically.
So my invitation to anybodywho's wanting to play with
gravitas is that a little bit ofmindfulness meditation every
(29:07):
morning we are.
What we repeatedly do, asAristotle tells us is the thing
that is going to make thebiggest difference.
Simple as that.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I'm going to use that as a moment to rewind back 20
years.
One of the core things that alot of people don't appreciate
this about NLP is it's reallyabout state management at the.
At its core, it's like how dowe manage our thoughts and our
physiology and our variousemotions to be in this, the most
(29:39):
useful, resourceful state wecan be in to achieve what we
want to achieve?
Um, and what you're talkingabout in so many ways is is
really about if you can't getyour, if you can't be in the
state that's most useful in thatmoment, and states are
contagious.
So what happens is you're goingto show up with a presence that
is not so useful for you, butit's not going to be useful for
(30:05):
other people either, is it?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
not going to be useful for other people either,
is it?
And I think the thing that'smost interesting to me is that
our brains are not good atassessing state, and so we can
think I'm calm.
The practice is all just a lot.
I mean and musicians know thisway better than I, right, my dad
(30:30):
is a saxophonist, a jazzsaxophonist, you know, it is
just show up every day, show upevery day.
Don't try, just show up, justdo it, just do it, just do it.
And if you keep just doing it,something changes at a cellular
level yeah and it's notsomething that the brain can
rationalize, because it's it'sunconscious it is, uh, it's more
(30:53):
autonomous nervous systemthat's doing this.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And if we were to explore it further, what we've
been exposed to, uh, during ourlife is conditioning how our
brains have evolved to this.
So we've been around people whoare constantly agitated and
impatient, etc.
Yes, there's nothing wrong withagitation and impatience.
In some context you might needit.
It just may not be the mostuseful thing.
(31:19):
But if that's your defaultbehavior and that's why the
mindfulness in the neuroscience,the mindfulness activates the
ventromedial prefrontal cortex,which is our ability to sort of
kind of rationalize and takestock of what's going on in the
rest of our body.
Whether we're in fight or flightor we can be overexcited, our
reward systems can be creatingimpulsivity and all sorts of
(31:41):
crazy stuff on the other side ofthe equation but it's that I
was teaching it yesterdayactually.
So, basically, you know how dowe put the braking system on?
What mindfulness is doing issaying just take a moment to
take stock and and no judgmentjust like what's?
What's, what's just happeningat this moment, and is this what
I want?
I mean, you can ask yourself isthis useful for what I want to
(32:03):
do next?
It's not that complicated, it'shard, it's not that easy to do
physically.
The concept is quite simple tounderstand, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
And I think that's where I got to is that I had
thought I was doing it until Igot to the deeper level and went
oh okay, that's it.
And probably if I keep going in10 years I'll go.
Oh, no, no, that's it.
And probably if I keep going in10 years I'll go oh no, no,
that's it.
But what's quite nice is that,you know, as we get older, there
is, there are deeper layers,and I think that's quite a nice
thought, that there's more tofind.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So the Buddhas need to move over Caroline's on her
way.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I think I'm some way off that.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
In my next life.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
My next life maybe or the life after that.
Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Okay, so why is it so important for leaders to master
the gravitas?
I want to come back to thisagain, like why is it so
important, particularly intoday's world, that we know this
fast-paced, technologicallycrazy place we're living in,
this world we're living in?
(33:11):
Why is it so important forleaders to master this?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
it's everything you've already said, jerry, in
the sense that if you arestanding in front of a group in
a room or on teams, you arecreating state, and what you
make people feel, as any adperson, any marketeer knows, is
what happens first before theyvalidate, justify through logic.
(33:36):
So, for a leader to have apresence to their own state and
an ability to move others into amore productive state Once
they've got the strategy and thebusiness, once they've done the
MBA, I can't think of anythingmore important than helping
(33:58):
those you are talking to getinto a productive state, can you
?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
No, no, and having done an MBA, I also know what
that feels like.
They didn't teach much aboutstates or anything.
I don't even know if Goldmanhad published his book on
emotional intelligence yet atthat stage.
That's how long ago it was forme.
You talk about overcomingimposter syndrome.
(34:32):
So how does that manifestitself then when you're working
with somebody?
Is this sort of a part of arealization, before they can
embrace the gravitas, or justexplain, perhaps for our
listeners, how imposter syndromerelates to the work you're
doing in terms of gravitasmethod?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's fascinating, it's funny.
Actually, on Monday I ran asession pretty much on that
subject for a big media companyand we can talk about where we
got to with that, my feeling,with imposter syndrome, which is
that sense of they're going tofind me out.
I'm not good enough.
I think we all have it beyondyou know the dark triad of a few
(35:11):
psychopaths and narcissistsmaybe don't, but I think it's a.
It's a human condition.
I notice it in myself becausethat's all we can ever really go
on when I'm adrenal, when myhead is noisy, when I'm out
there in the world.
In comparison, which I thinkfight or flight, you know it's a
(35:32):
survival mechanism, isn't it?
Who's bigger, who's better,who's faster?
Who do I punch?
Not literally.
I hope you realize.
Yes metaphorically.
Yes, metaphorically so for me,when I'm working with a leader
who says, oh, I mean this clientyesterday, it wasn't named, but
(35:52):
there was a feeling of they'regoing to find me out.
The two antidotes that I thinkfor any of us who feel it.
I had a big gig in the US inthe summer and just before I
walked out on stage the nightbefore, I got a huge dose of
imposter syndrome and I go twoways with it.
The first one is I really stepinto service.
(36:14):
How can I help this audience?
What have they asked for?
What's the one thing?
Because one of the things thatgoes on in my head is there's
probably 10 other people inAmerica who could do this, maybe
better, right, and that'sreally useless.
That's not helpful.
So what?
So?
What can?
Well?
What, caroline, can you bringthen?
What's the thing that you bringthat no one else can lead with
(36:37):
that?
And then the other thing thatreally helps me is just to quiet
my nervous system, because Iknow that when I walk out in
front of the audience or if it'sfor someone doing a team's all
hands when you log in, there'sgoing to be a spike of
adrenaline because we care aboutit if your head is quiet and
(36:57):
your body and breath are calm.
When you meet that spike ofadrenaline, as any musician
knows, it spikes performance.
But if you're too adrenal, ifyour head head is too noisy,
when you meet that adrenaline,it will damage your performance,
it will make you rush, it willmake you stutter, you will
(37:18):
respond in a reactive way.
That is not productive.
So step into service, think howcan I help?
And then just get quiet.
Now that presupposes that youhave done a shed load of
preparation before that.
So this is not a wing itcharter ever.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
prepare like a pro, get it absolutely ready that you
can walk on stage and be quietand so that that does bring me
to uh, you you mentionedsomewhere I've seen mentioned,
that you pride yourself onproviding practical, simple
tools that are immediatelyuseful, and let's just play with
(37:57):
the one you've.
Lots of people probably canidentify with what you've just
described there, that sort of ohmy God, why am I here?
And oh, my whole system isoverreacting in that Because I
also teach some of this stuffand I've noticed a lot of things
over the years.
So the preparation thing uh,let's just clear up one or two
(38:17):
things on that.
If you have slides, it doesn'tmean reading your slides 10
times, it means actually doingit.
But what I wanted to get to wasthe importance of that first
minute or two would in anypresentation.
Could you talk?
I'm I'm pretty sure you'vethought a lot about this and
you've taught it many times thatfirst minute or two that you,
when you go out, what, what'sthe advice for people?
(38:41):
Because I, once you myexperience as a musician or
anything, once the first twominutes go and you get into the
zone, you're, you're pretty muchset for the rest of it.
But tell it, tell our listeners, a little bit about how to do
that.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I mean, I I think you've got to start right at the
top of the rehearsal processand think about intentionality
why have I been invited here?
And what's in it for theaudience.
Because if you're beginningnailing, a really great start is
everything, isn't it?
And so in your preparation, toreally be clear on what the
(39:17):
audience need and to really havea strong first two or three
minutes that you're reallyexcited about.
I often work with comedians,stand-up comedian directors.
You know I've occasionallyworked with brilliant Neil
Malarkey at the Comedy Store,because I'm no comic, you know,
(39:37):
I will never be, perhaps in oneof those next lives.
But I know that comedydirectors are absolutely the
best you get to really give youa sharp start, because great
comedy I'm in awe of, awe of.
I mean, it's such an art formis the, it's almost poetic in
its editing.
And so if I've got a big,daunting, scary gig, I just make
(40:01):
sure that those first threeminutes are razor sharp.
And then, as you walk out andthen you know any musician knows
this it's a lot about as youwalk out on stage, air on face,
clothes on skin, quiet mind, youknow presence to each step you
get out on stage there's amoment where, like a rocket ship
(40:25):
taking off, there's a stillness, a quiet, because most people
rush, that moment they see theaudience and they goically and
off they go.
It's a kind of defensive,aggressive reaction.
If you can stop, breathe out,really see them as old friends,
(40:45):
let the breath come back in,easy, relaxed.
My coach said to me like you'restanding at your fireside with
a glass of cognac, then yournervous system goes, you're safe
and if you're prepped, it's fun.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
At that point even as an introvert, I can say it's
fun yeah, yeah, because it's theinteresting thing, um, is your
relationship with time, wouldyou?
You can experience that extra20 seconds as as like two
minutes.
The audience is probablygetting curious.
They're really anticipating andthat's a fantastic state for
(41:22):
them to go into.
Um, and it is really nailingthose, and I I get people to
really learn almost those two orthree sentences off by heart,
everything, and rehearse it Now,if we get that right, and then
what goes in between goes inbetween because sometimes we
forget stuff and whatever thenext piece, the next important
(41:42):
piece, is always how do youleave them in that last minute?
So what's the trick for that?
Because you want to walk off.
The way our brains workactually is it's probably more
likely to remember that lastimpact at the emotional level
than anything else.
So what advice do you givepeople on that one?
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I learned a lot from Chris Head, who was.
I had a couple of coaches forthe TED Talk, but Chris Head
really really came in and helpedme nail the framing and he said
to me you need a strongerfinish Because I think good
comedy he's a stand-up comedydirector he said, you know, it's
not quite sharp enough.
(42:24):
And so what we did?
We set up an opening which wasopening up a loop of what's the
secret to great speaking.
And then there was a closedloop at the end which was the
surprising secret to publicspeaking is knowing when to shut
your mouth and there's abuild-up to it through the talk.
(42:46):
But it's, it's both, it'sparadoxical, it they've been
waiting for the close and therewas a kind of meta thing which
it felt quite fun to be thatplayful with it, so that I knew
that I was going to land theplane.
If I think, if you think aboutthe takeoff and then the landing
, I knew that I could land theplane really neatly and enjoy
(43:10):
that flourish.
And I've slightly got addictedto that strong beginning, strong
finish.
If I'm a bit honest, I've gotinto a habit of opening up a
loop of the beginning of a storyand closing the loop of the end
of a story, which I think isbecoming an overused habit.
But for those of you who arenot overusing that habit, you
(43:30):
can open up a story and thenwait through the presentation to
tell them what happened.
I think I'm using it too muchat the moment, but that's a
whole other story.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Those of you who can remember the heyday of Billy
Connolly will know that BillyConnolly would start and you'd
have about five differentstories before the punchline and
every one of them was probablycomical and that's the impact of
it.
And, of course, if you'rehanging out with comedians, as
you say, they have mastered theart of.
There's no one better, becausebecause, because the comedy
(44:03):
profession is, is, is deadly.
I mean you, you, you, you knowthe way.
The comedy store and that, orwas it the comedy store in
london I think I went to a fewtimes, like you, if you weren't
really there and making theimpact, within two minutes
somebody walk on and say off,off, you go, mate, that's it,
you've, that's your comedycareer over.
It was brutal, um, and and yetthey learn.
(44:25):
Most comedians are committed,that want to be successful, will
come back again.
They get knocked down and theygo.
I need to get better at this.
How do I walk out there in sucha way that that first thing I
say just hooks that audience?
And and how will I beremembered when I walk off the
stage, which of course makes itdifficult for the next comedy
comedian coming on, who you know?
(44:46):
But all comedy comedians knowthis, that that the guy on
before is likely to deliver agreat punchline at the end, so I
need to make sure I can walkout and match it.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I mean, a lot of people out there don't realize
you might get the opportunity todo a TED or a TEDx talk, and
it's a fantastic experience, asCaroline will no doubt endorse,
and it's really, really hardwork to get prepared for it.
It's grueling if they'readhering to the guidelines and
yet you come out the other endfeeling like you've broken
(45:22):
through.
So that's what I felt Like eventhough I think if I went back
and did it again, I wouldprobably be able to do it much
better, et cetera, et cetera.
I would say to everybody outthere, go watch caroline's ted
talk and then you'll know whatshe's talking about, because it
was.
It's incredibly good, it's very, very good.
So, caroline, coming to the end, let's pull a lot of this
(45:43):
together now.
So, thinking about the conceptof self-leadership, and, and,
and, therefore that translatinginto leading others and getting
others to follow you, uh, whatthree insights or takeaways
would you like to leave ouraudience with?
Uh, that they could basicallytake from this conversation
we're having today?
Speaker 3 (46:02):
I think, if we start with the idea of intentionality,
that there's a lovely I do lovea bit of ancient world, unless
you know what harbour you'resailing to.
No wind is the right wind.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Seneca.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
That is what good communication is all about.
Then I suppose we get to MarcusAurelius we cannot lead others
until we first lead ourselves,until we first lead ourselves,
manage your own state, whetherthat's going for a run, going
for a walk, sitting quietly for10 minutes before that meeting,
(46:38):
learning to meditate, whateverit is.
And the final piece, which isHorace I think I hope I'm right
Whatever I feel they feel, thevoice is, as you say, the most
powerful instrument that thereis.
It can make people feel abillion different states, and
(46:58):
you, as a speaker, have theability to take them on a
journey.
So start to notice people whotake you on a journey when they
speak, and then start to becurious as to when you do it for
others, because that the youthat's gonna move an audience,
and there's reason.
You know, I say this as anintrovert who was very, very
awkward for a long time.
There is no more lovely feelingthan knowing you've helped and
(47:20):
moved an audience.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's, I think it's, what life's about really and
maybe just to qualify this,because people, obviously we
talked about the TED talking andall this stuff the audience it
can moving an audience of one,can't it?
Speaker 3 (47:33):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Gravitas is not just uniquely for walking out and
doing those showcase gigs, no,no.
It could be that one or twopeople that you have to or you
walk up to in a business orcourt situation and at the end
of it you walk away and theyfeel wow.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
I think it's back to that you know, community leader
piece as a parent, as a friend,as you know that your ability to
be with someone so they feelheard and listened to and
understood, that's what this isabout.
It's not about impressingpeople.
It's not about being clever.
It's not about being clever.
It's not about doing a greatbig talk.
(48:10):
It's about show up and makepeople feel seen and heard and
help them move through thingsthrough your own presence.
That's that's what it's aboutand through your own presence.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
That's the greatest present you can give them that's
it.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
That's the ending we wanted, thank you well, I just
made that one up.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I didn't rehearse it so.
So, caroline, what's next foryou?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
I am in the midst and I say this with a slight sense
of these.
Things always take longer thanyou think.
We've created a course calledmaster your speaking, which
takes everything I learned fromdoing a tedx and turns it into a
one-hour self-paced course.
So if you are having to do apresentation or a speech and you
need quickly to pull yourstories, your intentionality,
(49:01):
your energy together, thiscourse is designed to help you
do that and we're very excitedabout launching it.
It's taken a while to produce.
Lots of love and care has goneinto it and it is coming out in
a couple of weeks very good and,um, how can people get in touch
with you?
and I do believe that, mayberelated to some of this, you may
(49:23):
even have something as aspecial offer or gift for people
who reach out immediately tothis yeah, if anybody links in
with me, caroline goida,g-o-y-d-e-r, we can send you a
gravitas course, a free gravitasvideo course, which is
basically blinkist for the bookgravitas, and we can also send
(49:44):
you a full set of gravitasaudios.
So just message me on linkedinand we will sort it out for you
yeah, so the?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
so the first couple of people who reach out to you
on LinkedIn and say they listento this podcast, of course, and
you will kindly grant them thatwonderful offer of that course.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
It'll be our pleasure .
Speaker 1 (50:06):
So, caroline, as ever , thanks for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withme and my listeners here today.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
It's been a complete delight, Gerry.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
A key misconception that people have about
resilience is that we think it'sa personality trait.
We think that, look, I've gonethrough all these things, I've
managed through all thesedemanding phases, I've led large
teams through this, whateverI've done.
Therefore, it's who I am, it'spart of my personality.
(50:42):
And here's the trap because I'mthinking it's part of my
personality, inherent to me.
Of course I don't need to takeany action about it, because
that's who I am and that's atrap.
It's not a personality trait.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
My next guest is Marie-Hélène Pauletier, a
psychologist and resilienceexpert and author of the
Resilience Plan A StrategicApproach to Optimizing your Work
Performance and Mental Healthoptimizing your work performance
and mental health.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Maria Lynn shares her strategies for creating a
personalized resilience plan andhow leaders can foster
resilience not only inthemselves, but also in their
teams and organizations.
This conversation is packedwith insights to help you thrive
, no matter what challenges youface.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
You won't want to miss it and remember before our
next full episode, there's a OneSimple Thing episode waiting
for you A quick and actionabletip to help you lead and live
better.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
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