August 30, 2025 • 48 mins
What if the biggest barrier to change isn’t strategy or communication — but biology?
In this episode, organisational change expert Hilary Scarlett shares powerful insights from the 3rd edition of her book, Neuroscience for Organizational Change. She explains how understanding the brain can help leaders navigate resistance, foster trust, and lead transformation that sticks.
Drawing on neuroscience and real-world examples, Hilary shows why getting brains onboard — not just people — is the secret to lasting change.
Together, Hilary and Gerry discuss a wide range of topics, including:
- What neuroscience reveals about why people resist change
- Why uncertainty and ambiguity overwhelm the brain
- How to reduce threat responses and build trust during change
- What leaders can do to communicate more effectively
- How to create clarity, reward prediction, and support resilience
Whether you’re leading a restructure, launching a new initiative, or helping teams through transition — this episode offers practical guidance rooted in science and empathy.
Curious to learn more?
🎧 Listen now to this episode
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me, gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use.
Whether you're here for usefultools or thought-provoking ideas
, leading People is your guideto better leadership.
(00:56):
Why do even the most carefullyplanned change initiatives often
fail?
What are some of the mostmisunderstood ideas in change
leadership, especially when itcomes to motivation,
collaboration and how peoplerespond to uncertainty?
And what if the biggestobstacle to change is the brain
itself?
In this episode, my guest isworkplace neuroscience expert,
hilary Scarlett, and author ofNeuroscience for Organizational
(01:18):
Change.
Now, in its third edition, weexplore how neuroscience can
help leaders design change thatworks with the brain, not
against it.
Hilary shares practicalstrategies to reduce threat
responses, boost clarity andfairness and foster cultures of
psychological safety.
It's a conversation full ofinsights for anyone leading
(01:42):
people through uncertainty,transformation or growth.
Here's our conversation, rhiScarlett.
Welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you're coming in from which part of the world
today?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I'm based in London, UK.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Right Now.
You've just released the thirdedition of your book
Neuroscience for OrganizationalChange, and we're going to get
to that in a few minutes, butfirst, so my listeners can get
to know you better, how did youcome to focus your work at the
intersection of neuroscience andorganizational change, and were
there any pivotal people,places or moments that shaped
(02:21):
this journey to where you aretoday, or moments?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
that shaped this journey to where you are today.
I've worked in organizationalchange for many years and, gosh,
probably about 15, 20 years agoor so I was doing studies in
psychology, postgraduate studiesin psychology, and there I came
across an article written by apsychiatrist saying we can now
understand enough about thehuman brain to apply that to the
(02:45):
world of work, and that reallycaught my interest, thinking
perhaps if we can bring a bitmore science and evidence to
what goes on when we're goingthrough change, that would be
really helpful.
So originally I went off andstudied virtually with
neuroscientists in the States.
Over the last 10 years or soI've been working with
neuroscientists here in the UK,particularly at University
(03:06):
College London, and I kind ofsee my role as taking their work
out of the lab and bringing itinto the workplace in a
practical way.
So that's what my work is it'sto make sure there's science.
But perhaps more importantly,what does that mean to us as
leaders in organizations?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Right, and you're doing a lot of consulting work,
I believe.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's exactly.
Yeah, I think probably 95% ofmy work now is working with
neuroscience, appliedneuroscience, working with
leaders, managers, all peopleBecause I am just a big believer
that if you could understandyour brain better, how helpful
that will be, Because I thinkfor all of us it's our key work
tool, so to speak, and you knowwe have good days and bad days,
(03:46):
and I think if we can understandour brains, maybe we can enable
ourselves to have more gooddays at work.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Right.
So for my listeners out there,there's a lot of really rich
stuff coming up, because you'regoing to probably give us some
examples later on as we getthrough this conversation.
So stay tuned, because we'regoing to explore this topic and,
let's face it, organizationalchange is everywhere.
Right, it's, it's constant right, so let's, let's just now get
(04:12):
to the book.
Let's explore why this book andwhy now but you've been
exploring this field, as you say, for years and what's kind of
changed in our understanding ofneuroscience and what made you
feel that now was the time torevisit and expand the book.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's the third edition so what was the third
edition?
That's right, and that the thefirst edition came out um nine
years ago, um, so it's been awhile since I wrote the first
edition.
The second edition came outabout three years after that,
and the reason um now to go to athird edition um is because
piker's technology is moving on,so revealing more things.
(04:48):
In fact, one of the reasons whywe're hearing so much about
neuroscience generally istechnology.
That up until pretty recently,neuroscience was a pretty grim
and gory science, because themain way we learned about the
brain was from babies born withsome kind of brain damage.
Adults who acquired braindamage during their lives are
(05:08):
looking at the brains of animals, but technology means that
neuroscientists can now look atthe likes of us people with
healthy brains and see what'sgoing on.
And what's really moving onagain is portable technology, so
the ability to do what's calledhyperscanning, where
neuroscience can look atmultiple brains at the same time
in the workplace, um in theschool, in college and
(05:31):
university, wherever and that'swhat's moving on our knowledge
again.
So there are a couple of areasthat um hyperscanning really
helps and that's what caught myinterest.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So it's time to explore that more okay, and and
actually, when you mentionedthis demystifying of the
neuroscience and actually theemergence in the last 10-15
years of this notion of appliedneuroscience, which is not
having to know all the detail ofhow the brain works, but
actually knowing the impact it'shaving when it shows up in
(06:01):
different contexts, there's alsoit just reminded me that
there's a fantastic book by aFrench neuroscientist called
Stanislas Dehaene and it'sentitled how we Learn, and one
of the key tenets of this bookis how AI people and
neuroscientists are workingtogether and they're actually
finding ways to complement eachother's work, because the AI
(06:23):
guys are trying to code thebrain stuff and because of the
way they're trying to code itmathematically and
algorithmically, it's actuallyfeeding into a better
understanding of aspects of thebrain.
So he, one of his key points inthe early part of his book,
which I read a couple of yearsago, is really about like we're
at it with a kind of interfaceof these two things, where
technology and neuroscience isactually coming together in a
(06:45):
complementary way, which isquite fascinating really.
Um, okay, so let's get into thewhole concept of change, um,
and why it's so difficult at anorganizational level.
So as human beings, we'reactually quite adaptable.
You know we survive.
Darwin will probably say youknow, he'd have his say about
how that was.
And yet we, we often resistchange, which is about usually
(07:07):
adapting.
And from a neuroscienceperspective, what is it about
organizational change thatcreates such friction in our
brains, and what can leaders dodifferently once they understand
this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
yeah, no, absolutely I think.
Um, it reminds me a while ago Iwas working with the um IT the
tech team in one of the largebanks and I remember when they
were asking how come peoplealways want the latest device,
the latest iPhone, whatever.
Yet when it comes to IT changeat work, everybody hates it and
resists it.
And I think one of the bigdifferences is choice.
(07:39):
Choice makes a big difference.
If I've chosen now to have mynew iPhone or whatever, that's
exciting.
If I feel that IT change isbeing imposed upon me, that's
more difficult.
So I think, as you say, we areincredibly resilient creatures.
We're incredibly adaptable.
There are people out thereliving in space, we live in all
parts of the world, but ourbrains are brilliant things.
(08:03):
But organizational change doestake away some of the things
that our brains really want.
So one of the things our brainsreally want to do is they want
to be able to predict, becauseif they can predict what's
coming up, they're better placedto protect us, and it's all
about survival for the brain.
And change often means we can'tpredict.
We don't know what's coming up.
Also, our brains tend to likehabits.
(08:24):
They use a huge amount ofenergy a disproportionate amount
of energy for their size.
So our brains on the whole likehabits.
They like things to stay asthey are.
Again, what does change mean?
Change means things are goingto be different.
I'm going to have to change theway I do things, and also that
bit about choice and control.
And research does show thatorganizational change that feels
(08:46):
unpredictable anduncontrollable is incredibly
stressful to the human brain.
And I guess if we all thinkback five years ago COVID five
years ago unpredictable,uncontrollable, very stressful.
So that's one of the reasonswhy it can be so difficult and I
think, particularly for leaders.
One of the things leaders needto remember is that bit about
(09:07):
unpredictable and controllable.
Leaders probably have moresight over what's coming up.
They probably have a bit moreinfluence over what's coming up,
and I think they need to staymindful of the fact that people
further down the organizationdon't have that same sense of
control and ability to see whatis coming up, so their brains
are probably a more stressedplace than those of leaders I
(09:29):
mean, in some ways, thechallenge leaders have is they
spend quite some time figuringout the change stuff obviously
covid's different because itcomes at you, but a lot of stuff
.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
They figure it out and then, um, they cannot not
know what they know and at thesame time, they're not aware
that other people don't know it,and so they think they're
thinking ahead, as you say, andyet the vast majority of people
don't even know why we have togo through this right.
And then you have thisdisconnect with the messaging
(10:00):
doesn't get across and theleaders are surprised that
people are resisting what theythink is the obvious and logical
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think a couple of pointsone that research shows we
become leaders, as you say, wekind of forget that other people
don't know what we know, andthere is research around that
that we kind of assume peoplehave the same information as us.
And I think the other thing that, as you say, I think leaders
have that time to go intodarkened rooms with consultants
(10:29):
or whoever look at the data,look at the information, think
it through and work out whyoption A is better than B or C.
But then I think a lot oforganizations, in their haste to
get on with change, then go tobroadcast mode and kind of go
here's the plan, here's what'sgood for you, here's what's good
for customers, here's what'sgood for stakeholders, now
please get on with it.
And then wonder why mostemployees dig their heels in and
(10:55):
in many cases it's becauseemployers have not had that
chance to get it in the same waythat leaders have.
And that bit about having thatmoment of insight of oh, I get
it, I can see why option A isbetter.
It makes a big difference toour brains, that moment of
insight, and I think that's areally important step that a lot
of organizations miss in termsof change is giving employees
that chance to get that momentof understanding, that moment of
(11:18):
insight.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
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And, like you, talk aboutprediction.
Well, I mean as well.
Well, amongst the neurosciencecommunity, it's well known that
the brain is a predicting,constantly predicting machines
(12:05):
trying to anticipate risk istrying to anticipate outcomes
all the time.
People may not realize that,but your brain is constantly
trying to work out what'shappening.
But the habits thing is quite apowerful one.
I actually yesterday was ityesterday or the day before?
I do this regular webinar at theEuropean institutions here in
(12:25):
Belgium called Learning to Learn, and actually what we focus on
is habit, because when weacquire a skill, become
accomplished at something, wewant it to be habitual, because
that means it's embedded in us.
However, having to unlearnthings and there's a lot of
literature coming out now, Ithink, around actually to learn
something new, you have tounlearn things that you already
(12:48):
know, and we run against thesekind of little technical things
like the myelination of you know.
What makes us able to do thingsis the strengthening of the
neural connections, andsometimes what we've been asked
to do is that.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but we'vebeen asked to do during changes
, to unravel some of that andthen create different or new
connections or complementaryconnections.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
And what can be very hard is itcan be very hard for the brain
to unlearn it.
Because you're right, whenwe've got habits or ways of
doing things, it's kind of likewe've got a path in the brain
and when we want to change thathabit it's kind of like saying
to the brain you've got to leavethat path and create another
new path elsewhere.
Obviously, from a brain pointof view, the brain would rather
(13:31):
stick with the well-known path.
It's easier, it's lesseffortful for us.
Research also shows it's lessstressful for us when we're
using habits.
But absolutely we can createthat new path and once we've
used it 50, 100 times it'llbecome well established.
But one of the professors I workwith at UCL does a lot of work
with elite athletes.
He was telling me a story awhile ago about working with an
(13:52):
elite female tennis player andshe'd wanted to change the grip
on her forehand, I think it was.
She practiced and practiced,not quite enough.
He thought she got into a matchand, sure enough, she used the
new grip but then suddenly gotinto a tight spot in the match
and suddenly went back to theold grip.
And I think that's a greatexample if those new habits are
not well enough established.
When we're under pressure, whenwe're stressed or indeed when
(14:15):
we're tired, our brains willquite often go back to those old
habits.
It's actually quite hard forthe brain quite often to get rid
of that old path.
So we need to make sure thatthe new path, the new habit, the
new pattern of thinkingwhatever it is we want is better
established than the old oneokay, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So.
What's emerging here?
Um, I mean, I have somequestions here, but what's
emerging is a sort of kind ofcomplementariness to what I have
written down here in front ofme, and that is a lot of change.
Perhaps is communicated as alot of what, and often the
blocker is where, in the how,you know and you talk about the
(14:54):
neuroscience and and the valueof it and the value of leaders
knowing about this and beingaware of the impact it's having
on the people that they'reasking to change.
And you've worked, probably inorganizational change 20 odd
years ago using the classictechniques of you're getting
(15:14):
people into a room and talkingabout this, and all those
techniques are probably stillvalid.
What are some of the extrathings you're doing now with the
neuroscience distinctions tohelp people prepare their brains
for what's coming up, and howare leaders embracing or
resisting that, even in terms oflike, what's the convincing
(15:35):
process you're going through tosay we have to spend a bit more
time on this before we jump intothat?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, I think.
I mean mean, there's lots oflittle things, I think, that
make a difference and I think inmany ways, neuroscience um for
many of us, I think in some waysit kind of um supports our gut
feelings about what's the rightthing to do.
So I think, from a lot ofmanagers and leaders, um
actually is kind of a relief insome ways.
So those things I'm doing thatI thought maybe were right, oh,
(16:06):
they are a good thing to do.
I can remember one leader in aworkshop I was running saying oh
, so the fact I take the teamout for a cup of coffee on a
Monday morning, that's not afrivolous thing to do, that's a
good thing to do, it'sabsolutely.
Social connection is soimportant to us and I think
(16:27):
that's one of the things thatneuroscience really brings home
is the importance of feeling Ibelong.
We are deeply social creaturesand especially during times of
change, we need to feel that webelong and that our manager
cares about us.
So little things like that orother things, like just having a
good old laugh with the team aswell.
You know, again, variousmanagers, leaders I've worked
with, you know, like to have abit of fun.
But is that a bit frivolous andthe message is no, having a
good old laugh with the team isa really good thing to do.
(16:48):
Laughter is a great de-stressorto the brain and there's also
research from Warwick Universitythat shows that having a good
old laugh actually in the shortterm increases our IQ by a
little bit.
Just quite a short-term effect.
So it's these little things.
And so that bit about choicegiving people a bit of choice, a
bit of control, makes a bigdifference to us.
(17:09):
No one wants to feel they're acomplete victim of what's going
on.
I think the importance ofshort-term wins that people
change.
I think we often feel a bitdaunted.
Am I up to it?
Am I capable of it?
I know I used to be able to usethe old systems competently,
but will I be able to do thatwith the new system?
So I think the more people canhave little wins and feel like
(17:29):
they are winners, it changes thechemicals in our brains and it
sets our brains up to take onbigger challenges.
So making people feel likethey're doing well, or indeed,
if people are struggling rightnow, again just going to think
about a time when they felt theywere being really successful
and doing really well.
And to the brain.
It's kind of almost like thebrain is back there again and
(17:51):
just gives people a bit moreconfidence if they're kind of
struggling with the changearound.
So I think part of the beautyof neuroscience is lots of
little things can make a bigdifference to us in terms of
change.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Okay, and I guess a lot of these little things are
in the book.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And they are Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
There's a whole yeah, no, throughout the book and
there's a specific chapterthat's all about these little
things, about how do we getbrains back on track, how do we
keep people performing when theyare in the midst of uncertainty
?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Okay, so there's a special offer coming up later.
So stay tuned everyone, becauseHilary's going to.
We're going to dive into one ortwo of the things you mentioned
there.
A reference there, because youyou've in the book you talk,
make a link between neuroscienceand collaboration.
You've already mentioned thisidea of social and you you talk
about this concept of interbrainsynchronization and the social
(18:42):
brain.
So could you explain, uh, howthese ideas help us understand
what either enables or blocksthe collaboration during change
efforts?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
yeah, absolutely.
I mean, interbrainsynchronization is one of the
things that kind of drove me toto write, write the the third
edition.
Um, because the great thing forme about writing third edition
is is my opportunity to go backand work with a neuroscientist
and talk to them and learn fromthem, so I learn more than
anybody else in a way.
So interbrain synchronizationcaught my interest.
It's enabled by the ability nowof neuroscientists to kind of
(19:16):
put these little caps on peopleEEG caps or FNIRs caps so we can
wear them in the organization.
And it means that neurosciencecan now look at multiple brains
at the same time.
And there's this reallyinteresting studies coming out
about when our brains begin tosynchronize, the same parts of
the brain begin to activate atthe same time in the same way.
(19:36):
It suggests that we'rebeginning to see the world from
a similar perspective as others,so really important in terms of
trying to reach consensus oragreement around things.
But there's also research thatshows that brains that begin to
synchronize teams begin toperform better.
There's research that showschildren in school, when their
(19:57):
brains are synchronizing in theclassroom, they're more engaged,
they're retaining informationbetter.
There's research that showswhen we're beginning to
synchronize we seem to have morepsychological safety.
We seem to be more prepared toshare information with people.
So there's all sorts ofinteresting reasons why
interbrain synchronization issignificant to us in the
(20:18):
organization.
It's the ability to collaborate, this ability to perform better
as a team.
And also, interestingly,neuroscience does reveal what
are some things that help that?
Well, some things that helpthat are the more we know people
on the whole, the more ourbrains start to synchronize.
So there's studies done withmothers and children and their
(20:40):
brains will synchronize a lottogether.
But really interesting on that,one mother and child talking
together, face to face, theirbrains will synchronize a lot.
Put them onto a screen andtheir brains will synchronize
less.
So I think there are someinteresting questions there in
terms of what work is best donewhere, because communicating via
(21:01):
screen seems to reduceinterbrain synchronization.
Um, all that said, there aretimes when you don't want brains
to synchronize.
If you want people to becreative and having different
ideas, then you don't wantpeople to look at the world from
a similar perspective.
You want differing views.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So again, it's just making people aware of the
benefits of interbrainsynchronization and times when
we need it and times when it'sless useful yeah, it reminds me
of some workshops I would havebeen involved in years ago where
people would have seen this asesoteric type stuff and yet it's
actually real.
Um, this ability for people to.
It's almost like finishing eachother's sentences.
(21:35):
There is a sort of there's ascience behind it.
It's just it sometimes feels abit weird.
How did that person I, I knowwhat you're thinking, kind of
thing.
But it does happen when peopleform those deep connections or
you have things like mirrorneurons anyway and other factors
that are are creating that bond.
And my theory on the screenthing is that when people feel
(21:55):
connected, there's an energyfield that binds them and the
screen interferes with thatsense of the and we can't
explain energy connection.
We know when we have it and weknow it when we don't.
You know it's that just feelingand in some languages they have
expressions around that whichyou know, around how they sense
other people and the screentends to I think it tends to
(22:20):
diminish some of that.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And hurrah for technology.
We're having this conversationtoday because of technology, so
hurrah for technology in manyways.
But yeah, there's a price topay with it as well.
We just need to be aware ofwhat work is best done where.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Absolutely.
So we've got this interbrainsynchronization.
Now, another key factor that isplaying out in the change,
change process and and you kindof refer to it earlier because
you're you're kind of a lot ofwhat you said earlier tends to
be activating the reward systemsin the brain and, let's say,
(22:52):
playing down or controlling thatsort of amygdala.
Um, you know more emotionalarea.
So let's get into the emotionalstuff now a little bit, because
you touch on a concept which isemerging as quite a hot topic
called interoception, and let'stalk about interoception, what
that is, and decision making ondistress and how people
interpret uncertainty and whatleaders can do to to, let's say,
(23:15):
support people when they'regoing through what they feel
emotionally charged transitionsyeah, and again, I think the
emotional, emotional aspects ofchange is so important and I
think, again, it's one of thoseareas we kind of perhaps
underestimate the importance ofemotions in terms of how we work
, how we perform, how we feelabout organizational change.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So, yeah, as you say, interception is another really
interesting new area and thatwas another reason it drove me
to want to write the thirdedition, to go and explore it
more with, with neuroscientists,and what it's all about is that
ability to pick up on our that.
We talk about gut feelings andagain, science says there's
something to it.
Um, you know, we do have gutfeelings, um, but and and it's
(23:56):
about the ability to pick upaccurately on the, on those
feelings, and some people arebetter at it than others.
There was a really interestingstudy done in a city with
traders a guy called John Coateswho was a trader, now a
neuroscientist at Cambridge andhe was interested in why were
some traders just making betterdecisions better under stress
(24:18):
lasted a long time in what wasquite a stressful job, and one
of the things they found withcity traders the ones who were
really successful is they werebetter at interception.
In this particular case, theywere better at picking up what
their heart rate was withoutputting their hand on their
heart or their pulse.
They didn't know they werebetter at it, but those who were
tended to make the betterdecisions under stress, and
(24:40):
there's other research thatshows people who are good at
interception um tend to be ableto regulate their emotions
better, which is so importantduring change, and um they're
just better to better picking upon them accurately, um.
So that's that.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That's really important, that bit to manage
emotions I've read, I've heardabout that study and, um, I
think if somebody's out therenow maybe thinking, but okay, so
I'm doomed, I don't have it,actually I think the science is
starting to show that you canlearn.
It isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
absolutely that's.
That's the really good news.
That that is the really goodnews.
We can all get better at it andquite simple things and just
things like anyone who practicesyoga, when they're just doing
that body scan once a day, makesus better at picking up on
interception on our gut feelings, internal feelings.
So we can get better at it.
(25:30):
That's the really good news.
Again, it's one of those thingswe can all improve on.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Okay, and then let's talk about decision making under
stress.
What does stress do to ourability to make decisions?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, well, this is an interesting one in terms of,
um, male and female, wheredecisions begin to differ
between men and women, that that, um, men under stress will take
more risks, women under stresswill take fewer risks.
Um, so it's actually being inorganizations.
But under long, long, long-termstress, men will begin become
more cautious too.
But again, it's one of thosethings to just be aware of, of
(26:05):
the different reactions of menand women under stress, but also
to be aware that when you'vegot a mixed group of men and
women, that the male risk-takingtends to take over.
So the importance of listeningto everybody in the room,
because the risk-taking willtend to dominate if you've got
more men in the room, if you'vegot men in the room with women.
So it's just one of the thingsto be aware of, that why we
(26:27):
differ.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And there have been studies about the success rate
of, let's say, female heavyboard of management during
crisis situations, and perhapsthis explains a little bit
what's going on in terms ofmaybe not just their ability to
manage risk under stress andstressful situations.
There may be some other aspectsof empathy and that compassion
(26:51):
maybe sitting underneath it aswell, which we yeah, um, we may
or may not get to.
Um, how, how important is that?
Uh, empathy and compassion whenit comes to change?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I mean hugely important.
I think you know, I think I saywe are in deeply social
creatures more than we probablyrealize, I think I, I do think
that, think that the need forsocial connection, that sense of
empathy with us, I think is oneof those areas we've
underestimated at work.
I think we get it in ourpersonal lives that
relationships matter and on thewhole, when relationships are
(27:23):
good, life is pretty good.
But I do think it's one ofthose areas historically in
organizations we've kind ofexpected employees to walk
through the workplace door,either metaphorically, and
somehow things shouldn't affectus in quite the same way,
because we're professionals, soit shouldn't affect us quite the
same way.
But we absolutely do.
It's.
(27:43):
It say we are social creatures,we're constantly checking out
do I fit in, do I belong?
And that bit about empathy andfeeling that we're understood is
is important and it goes rightback to, you know, when we're
babies.
As mammals, we start as babies.
As babies we wouldn't make itthrough our first weeks, months,
years of life without someonetaking an interest in us.
(28:04):
And babies will scream and crywhen they're tired and they're
hungry, but also when they'reseparated from their caregiver,
because babies absolutely knowis somebody interested in me?
Do they care about me?
If they do, I'm okay, if not,I'm not okay.
And that kind of carries onthroughout life less overtly,
but again it's all feeling doesmy manager care about me?
Are they interested in me?
If they are, I'm okay, if not,I'm not okay.
(28:26):
So that need for socialconnection there's nothing soft
about it.
It has a big impact on ourability to perform and our
staying power and our resilience.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So social connection, empathy, really important and
there are so many differentstudies and methodologies out
there that continue to evengallop's 12 famous engagement
factors.
One of them is I have somebodywho cares about me at work right
.
And the uncertainty bit then,because, let's face it,
(28:57):
everything is uncertain if youthink about it right, because
you and I don't even know whatwe're going to say next.
That's uncertain.
Yeah, we're dealing with itright, we're kind of dealing
with it, okay.
So what is it about uncertaintyand how can leaders give
certainty to the uncertainty?
You're listening to LeadingPeople with me, gerry Murray.
(29:27):
My guest this week is workplaceneuroscience expert Hilary
Scarlett Coming up.
We explore why giving peoplecertainty, fairness and a sense
of control is far more powerfulthan most leaders realise, and
what happens in the brain whenwe get those things.
Right Now back to ourconversation.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, it's a good question, I think, especially at
the moment.
I think there's just so muchuncertainty generally in the
world it's not just in theworkplace, I think.
You know we're faced with somuch uncertainty in what's going
in all sorts of ways.
So I think it's particularlyrelevant at the moment.
And a couple of things.
I was working with anorganization last year where
they knew changes were coming upand they were HR changes, so
(30:09):
they're going to affect people'sjobs, but they didn't know what
the changes were.
So a couple of things we talkedabout with managers and leaders
.
There is one be a good listener.
You can always listen.
You might not have the answers,but actually being listened to,
not surprisingly, is rewardingto the brain, just feeling that
we're being really listened to.
And I think the other thing isgiving certainty about what you
(30:30):
can give certainty about.
So you might not be able togive certainty about when the
change will happen or what theywill be, but just giving people
certainty about the relationshipthey have with you and the way
in which you will communicatewith them, that you can say to
them okay, I don't know what'scoming up, but I promise you
I'll sit down with you everyThursday morning or whatever it
is, and I'll tell you what Iknow and I don't know.
So giving them certainty aroundthat.
(30:52):
And again, I think theimportance of short-term goals
when people are feeling veryuncertain, that as long as
people can feel I've achievedsomething today, I can tick
things off my list.
That kind of feels good.
So short-term goals can bereally useful in a time of
uncertainty Because, as you say,our brains are prediction
machines.
They crave certainty but theycan never have it.
As you say, we can areprediction machines.
They crave certainty but theycan never have it.
(31:14):
As you say, we can never haveit, but it's one of the things
our brains want.
And again, I think it's one ofthe things that's really useful
to be aware of that our brainswant it but they're never going
to have it.
So the little things that wecan do, and even small things,
what are even small things like?
I go to so many sessions wherepeople say you know, especially
(31:34):
during change, meetings havebeen called meetings, have been
put into their calendars ordiaries, but they don't know why
.
And because that threat stateis so much, the middle of the
threat state is so much strongerin our brains, we all kind of
panic and go what's it about it?
What have I done wrong?
It must be bad news.
So just little things like justsend an agenda or tell people
what the purpose of the meetingis.
(31:55):
It's these little things thatsettle the brain.
Oh, that's what the meeting'sabout.
I can focus back on my work now.
It's these little things thathelp provide certainty for
people and help people focusback on work.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I've had several guests on the program, A
lot of what you just said.
Some of them came in and AdamGalinsky Professor.
Adam said some of them came inand Adam Galinsky professor
talked about this thing aboutthe email, without telling you
what it is and people you know,distorting what could be and
getting all stressed out aboutit.
I've had Margaret Heffernan ontalking about embracing
uncertainty and how you know wecan't predict the future and
(32:29):
there's lots of role models outthere for doing that, etc.
So and one of the things that Ithink really important is this
idea of short-term goals, andnot just the short-term goals
that give quick wins, but thecelebration of those right.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Because I think again, becausethe threat stage is so much
stronger in our brain, we alltend to kind of kick ourselves
about the things I didn't do orI didn't get right.
So, as you say, I think youknow stopping and pausing with
the team and focusing on what wehave done well, what we have
gone right, because the brainwill tend to move on and worry
about the next thing.
So I think we need to with thebrain, we need to kind of
(33:02):
deliberately counterbalance thatimpact, that desire to go to
the threat, to the negative, toprotect ourselves, and
deliberately activate the rewardcenter in our brains.
So, just as you say say,thinking about the successes,
the things we've done well, isreally important yeah, and the,
the, the, the threat part of ourbrain is is valuable.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I mean, it's there for a reason and we should pay
attention to it and, at the sametime, if it starts running the
show, it can inhibit a lot ofthings for us.
So we, we know it can stress usout, and that now, an emerging
area which is getting uh well,it's been inhibit a lot of
things for us, so it can stressus out.
Now, an emerging area which isgetting well, it's been getting
a lot of, I suppose, focus inthe last few years and now, I
think, in some parts of theworld, becoming part of a
(33:44):
political discussion.
But this whole idea ofneurodiversity, right, and then
linking it also to psychologicalsafety, these are two themes
that have come back into thebook for you, or come into the
book in this new edition.
Why is this so important nowand what role does neuroscience
play in creating safer, moreinclusive workplaces where
people can thrive through change, regardless of how they are as
(34:09):
people?
So if they have a neurodiverseprofile or whatever, it's part
of acceptance, right, and it'sallowing people to be themselves
at work, and the whole idea ofpsychological safety is about
that as well.
So can you talk about that andhow you decided to include this
in the new edition?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
In the third edition.
Yeah, I think, because I thinkyou know just about, as you said
, there's much more awareness, Ithink, of neurodivergence now
neurodiversity, and I think mostworkshop sessions I run now
there'll always be a questionabout how does this apply to
people who are neurodivergent?
What does it mean if I'mmanaging a team where people are
neurodivergent and researchshows about 20% of the
population is neurodivergent, sothat's a big percentage of the
(34:54):
workforce or potential workforce, because it can be harder for
neurodivergent people to findwork.
So I think it's reallyimportant from both sides for
neurodivergent people to createa workplace where they feel they
can thrive.
But also it kind of makeseconomic sense from
organizations and countries'point of view to get these
people to get you know, enablepeople to work and to feel they
can contribute.
(35:14):
So yeah, so I thought it wasreally important to include it
in the book because lots ofquestions about it and that
chapter in the book onneurodiversity, what I've mainly
done is gone out to talk topeople who are neurodivergent
but also experts in change, sogetting so actually that part,
that chapter of the book, isslightly different.
It's got three kind ofconversations with people who
(35:39):
are neurodivergent but expertsin change as well and just them
talking about their experienceof change and what helped them.
And I think interesting.
A lot of things that helpneurodivergent people actually I
think are good for all of us.
You know, know the thingspeople will talk about, um,
about um, open plan offices, thelighting, the distractions, um,
are difficult for all of us andresearch shows we all, all our
(36:01):
cortisol levels go up when we'reworking in open plan office, um
, but for neuro diversion peopleis that bit worse it, it
impedes their ability to work.
That that bit more so.
And I think the message camehome loud and clear that
sometimes neurodivergent peoplejust need a bit more time to
reflect.
So there might be anannouncement and they might like
to go away and think about itovernight and come back the next
(36:23):
day.
But again, I think that's goodfor most employees actually,
that chance to go home, reflect,think about it, ask questions
the next day.
But particularly forneurodivergent people sometimes,
um, and they had thoseone-to-one conversations that
came home loud and clear fromthe people I spoke to that one
person talked about just havinga manager who just each day,
just checked in with her are youokay?
(36:43):
What do you?
What's your plan for today.
What are you getting done?
She said that made such adifference.
Another man I spoke to said,yeah, again, just be able to
have that ability to haveone-to-ones with the manager to
talk about it.
And I think the other thing thatcame home is you know, when we
have change, as we've said, youknow, habits, systems need to
change.
For some neurodivergent peoplethat can be harder because
they've got real workaroundsthat you know, using a certain
(37:05):
system or way of doing things,that's what they've kind of made
work for them in the workplaceand change might take that away
and they might be that bit moredependent on that old system.
So, again, just recognizingsome of those changes can be
harder for neurodivergent peoplethan the neurotypical people.
Psychological safety I thinkagain really important for all
of us, but particularly againfor neurodivergent people that
(37:28):
sense of I can be me, I can askthe daft question, so to speak.
I, yeah, yeah, I can ask thedaft question, so to speak.
Yeah, I can ask questions,although I'm being constructive
and helpful and doing it withthe right mindset.
That's what we need, again,important for all of us, but I
think particularly forneurodivergent people, to feel
that they're safe and they canask questions or make comments
(37:48):
or whatever, as long as it'sbeing constructive.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, I just read recently, uh, another article by
amy edmondson oh yeah, I thinkit was in the harvard business
review, about clarifying whatyour psychological safety is.
Not because, like, everythingis developing its own legs yes,
a bit of mythology andsimplification and exaggeration
and all sorts of things.
So that article is is anattempt to to kind of say you
(38:13):
know this, this is what it isand this is what it's not, even
though sometimes organization, Ithink, a lot of in some
situations not a lot, but somesituations there's a
simplification of these thingsand then, um, they're
interpreted in a certain way andand then they actually lose
their impact.
You know, because she says like, for example, psychologically
(38:34):
safety just to cite one thing,is is not about necessarily
being nice all the time.
It you know, it's maybe moreabout being respectful rather
than just being nice, so it'snot about just going.
Oh, we have to be alwaysaccommodating everybody's
requests.
Here it's about a way toexpress things, to respect
people, to allow people toexpress themselves, to have
(38:55):
their opinions, without beingjudged by those.
So it's kind of interesting toalso explore those things.
So you have it in the changecontext and that's because of
the potential for the fight orflight parts of the brain to be
activated, even if a team haspsychological safety before the
change is announced, what impactdoes it have and how can
(39:18):
organizations and leaders youknow ensure that it doesn't
disrupt a psychologically safeteam?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
yeah, because it's, and it's quite a precious thing.
Psychological safety as well,because it's, it's, it's uh, you
know it's hard to build andeasy to lose, I think, because
it could take, especially ifleads are under pressure or
stressed.
You know, somebody suddenlygets angry with somebody for
saying something or snaps atthem or whatever.
That could have a real hit interms of psychological safety.
So you know, I think again itgoes, it clings back to,
(39:48):
particularly for leaders, thisbit about emotional regulation.
But to manage their emotions isso important as part of
psychological safety, becausepsychological safety, safety, it
really is where leads have tobe role models.
It starts with them.
That ability to shareinformation, to disclose
information, to ask for feedbackin a constructive way, I mean
it.
It absolutely starts, startswith them.
(40:09):
So it's um, yeah, so I thinkpsychological safety, emotional
regulation kind of go togetherin a sense in terms of the
importance of them okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
So I guess at this stage, if I put myself in the
shoes of my listeners we'vetalked a lot about a lot of the
key concepts here and they mightbe craving for a couple of
examples, like fromorganizations who are actually
doing this.
So it's not just fine in theory.
They're actually organizationsout there and you write about
them, I believe, in the book uhwho are actually exploring this
(40:40):
and how to use it, how to usethe neuroscience constructively
during change.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So would you like to share a few um yeah, I mean just
on the um, on theneurodiversity.
I spoke to phillips, um, whoare an organization that seems
to be really ahead of the gamein terms of neurodiversity and
what they're doing is setting uplots of networks neurodiversity
networks across theorganisation and part of that is
(41:05):
about enabling people who areneurodivergent to deal with
change, to come and talk abouttheir particular issues and what
they're doing is giving themkind of tactics and tips as to
how to deal with change, to comeand talk about their particular
issues and what they're doingis giving them kind of tactics
and tips as to how to navigatethrough change.
So philips, I think, is areally interesting organization
in terms of of neurodiversityand change um.
Another organization I've beenworking with over the years is
(41:27):
pepsico and um.
Again, I think they've beenreally struck by the emotional
sides of change, the socialaspects of change.
That's come from neuroscience.
So, talking to them, they're acase study in this new third
edition and what they've reallytaken on board is that bit about
treating leaders as people, soallowing leaders to talk about
(41:50):
their emotions and how they'redoing.
Leaders to talk about theiremotions and how they're doing.
They've really picked up onthat.
They said, every workshop,every coaching session starts
off talking about the leader asa person.
How are you, how are you doing?
And rather than going into youas a leader, it's you as a
person, because recognizing it'sso important for leaders to be
(42:10):
able to manage their emotionsagain, to feel that people have
got empathy for them as leaders,to be able to manage their
emotions again, to feel thatpeople have got empathy for them
as leaders.
And also what it led them to do,I think, is this sense of trust
and dealing with uncertainty.
It meant what they did incertain cases is kind of
disclose information to certainlevels of managers they wouldn't
normally have done before, butthey said it was really
important, they kind of trustedthem and nothing leaked, it
worked.
(42:31):
And they said that really builta good bond between leaders and
those managers because themanagers felt I'm being trusted,
I'm having information sharedwith me.
At the moment that's kind ofconfidential, but I need it to
be able to be a good manager.
So, again, as they say, it's amindset.
I think PepsiCo they would sayPepsiCo UK would say it shifted
(42:53):
their mindset about, aboutchange, how you go about it and
just recognizing what's what.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
These kind of fundamental things we need in
order to enable people to changenow you I think you mentioned
pepsico uk and and how does thatrelate to?
From your experience of this,how does it relate to pepsico
worldwide?
I because I have read stuff inthe past where PepsiCo was quite
harsh driven environment right.
(43:19):
So it's very encouraging tohear these stories.
And has there been a culturechange in the entire
organization or is thissomething that's bubbling up
from the local entities?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, I've worked with PepsiCo Europe and PepsiCo
UK, so that's kind of the limitof my knowledge.
But certainly, yeah, I meanthey're honest about it.
They will say that they're notjust doing this to be nice,
they're doing it to do itbecause it helps the bottom line
as well, that if you takepeople through change well and
people feel good and capable andcompetent, that's a good thing
(43:54):
for the organization in terms ofperformance.
So they've got you know,they've got that commercial
mouth to them.
Yeah, they're not doing it justto be nice, they're doing it
because they believe it givesthem a competitive edge too.
And I think you know they wouldsay that's partly you know why
they've caught the attention ofthe organization.
Because this is aboutperformance for all employees,
(44:14):
isn't it Abel's performance?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yes, and the brain is a key variable in our ability
to perform anything, isn't thatright?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Absolutely.
For most of us, that's prettymuch all we've got is our brains
is our key work tool.
We're not out there working onthe land, so absolutely it's the
key bit to understand and workwith yeah, and remarkable how it
isn't it's still an emergingthing to put it into the mix.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
When you're talking about things like organizational
change, it's still, you know,we still have to communicate to
people that and when, when we'reasking for better performance,
etc.
We have to talk about the brainbecause, you know, it's not
like some sort of um, I don'tknow, uh, just okay, just go do
it.
I mean, if you're, if you'renot in a in a good place
(45:04):
emotionally or whatever, you'refeeling fatigued or you're
feeling stressed or whatever itis, you might not be able to
rise to the occasion for thatperiod of time or in that
context and equally, you know,you might be overstimulated on,
you know, as at times as well.
So it is understanding this,which is which is quite critical
, right no, absolutely, becauseit it's.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, because our brains are what we've, what
we've got and I think you knowto understand them and work with
it.
Yeah, it is so important.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Okay, so, coming to the end, what's the big idea or
key takeaway that you'd like ourlisteners to leave with today?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I think the big one for me is if we can understand
our brains better, then we canwork with that knowledge, and I
think we have got more controlover our brains than we probably
realize.
Just having that awareness ofwhat's going on for us, I think,
gives us choice about how werespond in the moment.
So for me that's the big one isif we can understand our brains
(46:05):
better, we can work with thatknowledge or we can help
ourselves and others performbetter and, in terms of
emotional wellbeing too, we canhelp ourselves flourish, I think
.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Okay.
So how can people get in touchwith you and is there anything
special?
We hinted at it earlier thatyou'd like to offer them, and
I'll put links in the show notes.
So, Hilary, how can peoplereach out to you and what is the
special offer?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Do reach out to me on linkedin or you can come via
the website scarletandgraycom.
But I'm on linkedin.
I'm quite active on linkedin,so do come and find me on
linkedin and my publisher willgive a discount offer to the
third edition, which is actuallycoming out on the third of july
in most of the world and end ofjuly in north america and
canada.
So it's not out until July, butI can provide an offer that
(46:54):
will get people at least 25% offthe book by my publisher.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
And if you're listening to this in 2026, which
can happen you'll know thatthis book is widely available by
that stage on all goodbookshops, right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, from 3rd of July.
It's 3rd of July 25, it'll beout there.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So reach out to Hilary, mention the podcast and
Hilary will send you a code fora special special discount, and
you can even pre-order the book,I believe, if you're listening
to this in the meantime.
So, as always, hilary thanks alot for sharing your insights,
tips and wisdom with me and mylisteners here today.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Pleasure.
Thanks very much for invitingme.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
When you're in a position of power, you release
more chemical messengers thataffect your mood, including
serotonin, and so once you getthat kind of addictive notion of
you're in power, you kind ofcontinue to seek the reward and
at the same time, when you're ina position of power, your
empathy is reduced.
So you start feeling lessempathy with other people.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
My next guest is BBC journalist and science writer
Melissa Hogenboom, whose newbook Breadwinners explores how
power.
Whose new book Breadwinnersexplores how power, gender,
ambition and leadershipintersect at work and at home.
It's a fresh take on whatreally drives behaviour, how
(48:28):
invisible norms shape ourchoices and what leaders can do
to make change that sticks.
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
Welcome to Leading People with me, gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use.
Whether you're here for usefultools or thought-provoking ideas
, leading People is your guideto better leadership.
(00:56):
Why do even the most carefullyplanned change initiatives often
fail?
What are some of the mostmisunderstood ideas in change
leadership, especially when itcomes to motivation,
collaboration and how peoplerespond to uncertainty?
And what if the biggestobstacle to change is the brain
itself?
In this episode, my guest isworkplace neuroscience expert,
hilary Scarlett, and author ofNeuroscience for Organizational
(01:18):
Change.
Now, in its third edition, weexplore how neuroscience can
help leaders design change thatworks with the brain, not
against it.
Hilary shares practicalstrategies to reduce threat
responses, boost clarity andfairness and foster cultures of
psychological safety.
It's a conversation full ofinsights for anyone leading
(01:42):
people through uncertainty,transformation or growth.
Here's our conversation, rhiScarlett.
Welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you're coming in from which part of the world
today?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I'm based in London, UK.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Right Now.
You've just released the thirdedition of your book
Neuroscience for OrganizationalChange, and we're going to get
to that in a few minutes, butfirst, so my listeners can get
to know you better, how did youcome to focus your work at the
intersection of neuroscience andorganizational change, and were
there any pivotal people,places or moments that shaped
(02:21):
this journey to where you aretoday, or moments?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
that shaped this journey to where you are today.
I've worked in organizationalchange for many years and, gosh,
probably about 15, 20 years agoor so I was doing studies in
psychology, postgraduate studiesin psychology, and there I came
across an article written by apsychiatrist saying we can now
understand enough about thehuman brain to apply that to the
(02:45):
world of work, and that reallycaught my interest, thinking
perhaps if we can bring a bitmore science and evidence to
what goes on when we're goingthrough change, that would be
really helpful.
So originally I went off andstudied virtually with
neuroscientists in the States.
Over the last 10 years or soI've been working with
neuroscientists here in the UK,particularly at University
(03:06):
College London, and I kind ofsee my role as taking their work
out of the lab and bringing itinto the workplace in a
practical way.
So that's what my work is it'sto make sure there's science.
But perhaps more importantly,what does that mean to us as
leaders in organizations?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Right, and you're doing a lot of consulting work,
I believe.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's exactly.
Yeah, I think probably 95% ofmy work now is working with
neuroscience, appliedneuroscience, working with
leaders, managers, all peopleBecause I am just a big believer
that if you could understandyour brain better, how helpful
that will be, Because I thinkfor all of us it's our key work
tool, so to speak, and you knowwe have good days and bad days,
(03:46):
and I think if we can understandour brains, maybe we can enable
ourselves to have more gooddays at work.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Right.
So for my listeners out there,there's a lot of really rich
stuff coming up, because you'regoing to probably give us some
examples later on as we getthrough this conversation.
So stay tuned, because we'regoing to explore this topic and,
let's face it, organizationalchange is everywhere.
Right, it's, it's constant right, so let's, let's just now get
(04:12):
to the book.
Let's explore why this book andwhy now but you've been
exploring this field, as you say, for years and what's kind of
changed in our understanding ofneuroscience and what made you
feel that now was the time torevisit and expand the book.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's the third edition so what was the third
edition?
That's right, and that the thefirst edition came out um nine
years ago, um, so it's been awhile since I wrote the first
edition.
The second edition came outabout three years after that,
and the reason um now to go to athird edition um is because
piker's technology is moving on,so revealing more things.
(04:48):
In fact, one of the reasons whywe're hearing so much about
neuroscience generally istechnology.
That up until pretty recently,neuroscience was a pretty grim
and gory science, because themain way we learned about the
brain was from babies born withsome kind of brain damage.
Adults who acquired braindamage during their lives are
(05:08):
looking at the brains of animals, but technology means that
neuroscientists can now look atthe likes of us people with
healthy brains and see what'sgoing on.
And what's really moving onagain is portable technology, so
the ability to do what's calledhyperscanning, where
neuroscience can look atmultiple brains at the same time
in the workplace, um in theschool, in college and
(05:31):
university, wherever and that'swhat's moving on our knowledge
again.
So there are a couple of areasthat um hyperscanning really
helps and that's what caught myinterest.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So it's time to explore that more okay, and and
actually, when you mentionedthis demystifying of the
neuroscience and actually theemergence in the last 10-15
years of this notion of appliedneuroscience, which is not
having to know all the detail ofhow the brain works, but
actually knowing the impact it'shaving when it shows up in
(06:01):
different contexts, there's alsoit just reminded me that
there's a fantastic book by aFrench neuroscientist called
Stanislas Dehaene and it'sentitled how we Learn, and one
of the key tenets of this bookis how AI people and
neuroscientists are workingtogether and they're actually
finding ways to complement eachother's work, because the AI
(06:23):
guys are trying to code thebrain stuff and because of the
way they're trying to code itmathematically and
algorithmically, it's actuallyfeeding into a better
understanding of aspects of thebrain.
So he, one of his key points inthe early part of his book,
which I read a couple of yearsago, is really about like we're
at it with a kind of interfaceof these two things, where
technology and neuroscience isactually coming together in a
(06:45):
complementary way, which isquite fascinating really.
Um, okay, so let's get into thewhole concept of change, um,
and why it's so difficult at anorganizational level.
So as human beings, we'reactually quite adaptable.
You know we survive.
Darwin will probably say youknow, he'd have his say about
how that was.
And yet we, we often resistchange, which is about usually
(07:07):
adapting.
And from a neuroscienceperspective, what is it about
organizational change thatcreates such friction in our
brains, and what can leaders dodifferently once they understand
this?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
yeah, no, absolutely I think.
Um, it reminds me a while ago Iwas working with the um IT the
tech team in one of the largebanks and I remember when they
were asking how come peoplealways want the latest device,
the latest iPhone, whatever.
Yet when it comes to IT changeat work, everybody hates it and
resists it.
And I think one of the bigdifferences is choice.
(07:39):
Choice makes a big difference.
If I've chosen now to have mynew iPhone or whatever, that's
exciting.
If I feel that IT change isbeing imposed upon me, that's
more difficult.
So I think, as you say, we areincredibly resilient creatures.
We're incredibly adaptable.
There are people out thereliving in space, we live in all
parts of the world, but ourbrains are brilliant things.
(08:03):
But organizational change doestake away some of the things
that our brains really want.
So one of the things our brainsreally want to do is they want
to be able to predict, becauseif they can predict what's
coming up, they're better placedto protect us, and it's all
about survival for the brain.
And change often means we can'tpredict.
We don't know what's coming up.
Also, our brains tend to likehabits.
(08:24):
They use a huge amount ofenergy a disproportionate amount
of energy for their size.
So our brains on the whole likehabits.
They like things to stay asthey are.
Again, what does change mean?
Change means things are goingto be different.
I'm going to have to change theway I do things, and also that
bit about choice and control.
And research does show thatorganizational change that feels
(08:46):
unpredictable anduncontrollable is incredibly
stressful to the human brain.
And I guess if we all thinkback five years ago COVID five
years ago unpredictable,uncontrollable, very stressful.
So that's one of the reasonswhy it can be so difficult and I
think, particularly for leaders.
One of the things leaders needto remember is that bit about
(09:07):
unpredictable and controllable.
Leaders probably have moresight over what's coming up.
They probably have a bit moreinfluence over what's coming up,
and I think they need to staymindful of the fact that people
further down the organizationdon't have that same sense of
control and ability to see whatis coming up, so their brains
are probably a more stressedplace than those of leaders I
(09:29):
mean, in some ways, thechallenge leaders have is they
spend quite some time figuringout the change stuff obviously
covid's different because itcomes at you, but a lot of stuff
.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
They figure it out and then, um, they cannot not
know what they know and at thesame time, they're not aware
that other people don't know it,and so they think they're
thinking ahead, as you say, andyet the vast majority of people
don't even know why we have togo through this right.
And then you have thisdisconnect with the messaging
(10:00):
doesn't get across and theleaders are surprised that
people are resisting what theythink is the obvious and logical
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think a couple of pointsone that research shows we
become leaders, as you say, wekind of forget that other people
don't know what we know, andthere is research around that
that we kind of assume peoplehave the same information as us.
And I think the other thing that, as you say, I think leaders
have that time to go intodarkened rooms with consultants
(10:29):
or whoever look at the data,look at the information, think
it through and work out whyoption A is better than B or C.
But then I think a lot oforganizations, in their haste to
get on with change, then go tobroadcast mode and kind of go
here's the plan, here's what'sgood for you, here's what's good
for customers, here's what'sgood for stakeholders, now
please get on with it.
And then wonder why mostemployees dig their heels in and
(10:55):
in many cases it's becauseemployers have not had that
chance to get it in the same waythat leaders have.
And that bit about having thatmoment of insight of oh, I get
it, I can see why option A isbetter.
It makes a big difference toour brains, that moment of
insight, and I think that's areally important step that a lot
of organizations miss in termsof change is giving employees
that chance to get that momentof understanding, that moment of
(11:18):
insight.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
On Leading People.
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and talent professionals.
And, like you, talk aboutprediction.
Well, I mean as well.
Well, amongst the neurosciencecommunity, it's well known that
the brain is a predicting,constantly predicting machines
(12:05):
trying to anticipate risk istrying to anticipate outcomes
all the time.
People may not realize that,but your brain is constantly
trying to work out what'shappening.
But the habits thing is quite apowerful one.
I actually yesterday was ityesterday or the day before?
I do this regular webinar at theEuropean institutions here in
(12:25):
Belgium called Learning to Learn, and actually what we focus on
is habit, because when weacquire a skill, become
accomplished at something, wewant it to be habitual, because
that means it's embedded in us.
However, having to unlearnthings and there's a lot of
literature coming out now, Ithink, around actually to learn
something new, you have tounlearn things that you already
(12:48):
know, and we run against thesekind of little technical things
like the myelination of you know.
What makes us able to do thingsis the strengthening of the
neural connections, andsometimes what we've been asked
to do is that.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but we'vebeen asked to do during changes
, to unravel some of that andthen create different or new
connections or complementaryconnections.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
And what can be very hard is itcan be very hard for the brain
to unlearn it.
Because you're right, whenwe've got habits or ways of
doing things, it's kind of likewe've got a path in the brain
and when we want to change thathabit it's kind of like saying
to the brain you've got to leavethat path and create another
new path elsewhere.
Obviously, from a brain pointof view, the brain would rather
(13:31):
stick with the well-known path.
It's easier, it's lesseffortful for us.
Research also shows it's lessstressful for us when we're
using habits.
But absolutely we can createthat new path and once we've
used it 50, 100 times it'llbecome well established.
But one of the professors I workwith at UCL does a lot of work
with elite athletes.
He was telling me a story awhile ago about working with an
(13:52):
elite female tennis player andshe'd wanted to change the grip
on her forehand, I think it was.
She practiced and practiced,not quite enough.
He thought she got into a matchand, sure enough, she used the
new grip but then suddenly gotinto a tight spot in the match
and suddenly went back to theold grip.
And I think that's a greatexample if those new habits are
not well enough established.
When we're under pressure, whenwe're stressed or indeed when
(14:15):
we're tired, our brains willquite often go back to those old
habits.
It's actually quite hard forthe brain quite often to get rid
of that old path.
So we need to make sure thatthe new path, the new habit, the
new pattern of thinkingwhatever it is we want is better
established than the old oneokay, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So.
What's emerging here?
Um, I mean, I have somequestions here, but what's
emerging is a sort of kind ofcomplementariness to what I have
written down here in front ofme, and that is a lot of change.
Perhaps is communicated as alot of what, and often the
blocker is where, in the how,you know and you talk about the
(14:54):
neuroscience and and the valueof it and the value of leaders
knowing about this and beingaware of the impact it's having
on the people that they'reasking to change.
And you've worked, probably inorganizational change 20 odd
years ago using the classictechniques of you're getting
(15:14):
people into a room and talkingabout this, and all those
techniques are probably stillvalid.
What are some of the extrathings you're doing now with the
neuroscience distinctions tohelp people prepare their brains
for what's coming up, and howare leaders embracing or
resisting that, even in terms oflike, what's the convincing
(15:35):
process you're going through tosay we have to spend a bit more
time on this before we jump intothat?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, I think.
I mean mean, there's lots oflittle things, I think, that
make a difference and I think inmany ways, neuroscience um for
many of us, I think in some waysit kind of um supports our gut
feelings about what's the rightthing to do.
So I think, from a lot ofmanagers and leaders, um
actually is kind of a relief insome ways.
So those things I'm doing thatI thought maybe were right, oh,
(16:06):
they are a good thing to do.
I can remember one leader in aworkshop I was running saying oh
, so the fact I take the teamout for a cup of coffee on a
Monday morning, that's not afrivolous thing to do, that's a
good thing to do, it'sabsolutely.
Social connection is soimportant to us and I think
(16:27):
that's one of the things thatneuroscience really brings home
is the importance of feeling Ibelong.
We are deeply social creaturesand especially during times of
change, we need to feel that webelong and that our manager
cares about us.
So little things like that orother things, like just having a
good old laugh with the team aswell.
You know, again, variousmanagers, leaders I've worked
with, you know, like to have abit of fun.
But is that a bit frivolous andthe message is no, having a
good old laugh with the team isa really good thing to do.
(16:48):
Laughter is a great de-stressorto the brain and there's also
research from Warwick Universitythat shows that having a good
old laugh actually in the shortterm increases our IQ by a
little bit.
Just quite a short-term effect.
So it's these little things.
And so that bit about choicegiving people a bit of choice, a
bit of control, makes a bigdifference to us.
(17:09):
No one wants to feel they're acomplete victim of what's going
on.
I think the importance ofshort-term wins that people
change.
I think we often feel a bitdaunted.
Am I up to it?
Am I capable of it?
I know I used to be able to usethe old systems competently,
but will I be able to do thatwith the new system?
So I think the more people canhave little wins and feel like
(17:29):
they are winners, it changes thechemicals in our brains and it
sets our brains up to take onbigger challenges.
So making people feel likethey're doing well, or indeed,
if people are struggling rightnow, again just going to think
about a time when they felt theywere being really successful
and doing really well.
And to the brain.
It's kind of almost like thebrain is back there again and
(17:51):
just gives people a bit moreconfidence if they're kind of
struggling with the changearound.
So I think part of the beautyof neuroscience is lots of
little things can make a bigdifference to us in terms of
change.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Okay, and I guess a lot of these little things are
in the book.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And they are Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
There's a whole yeah, no, throughout the book and
there's a specific chapterthat's all about these little
things, about how do we getbrains back on track, how do we
keep people performing when theyare in the midst of uncertainty
?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Okay, so there's a special offer coming up later.
So stay tuned everyone, becauseHilary's going to.
We're going to dive into one ortwo of the things you mentioned
there.
A reference there, because youyou've in the book you talk,
make a link between neuroscienceand collaboration.
You've already mentioned thisidea of social and you you talk
about this concept of interbrainsynchronization and the social
(18:42):
brain.
So could you explain, uh, howthese ideas help us understand
what either enables or blocksthe collaboration during change
efforts?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
yeah, absolutely.
I mean, interbrainsynchronization is one of the
things that kind of drove me toto write, write the the third
edition.
Um, because the great thing forme about writing third edition
is is my opportunity to go backand work with a neuroscientist
and talk to them and learn fromthem, so I learn more than
anybody else in a way.
So interbrain synchronizationcaught my interest.
It's enabled by the ability nowof neuroscientists to kind of
(19:16):
put these little caps on peopleEEG caps or FNIRs caps so we can
wear them in the organization.
And it means that neurosciencecan now look at multiple brains
at the same time.
And there's this reallyinteresting studies coming out
about when our brains begin tosynchronize, the same parts of
the brain begin to activate atthe same time in the same way.
(19:36):
It suggests that we'rebeginning to see the world from
a similar perspective as others,so really important in terms of
trying to reach consensus oragreement around things.
But there's also research thatshows that brains that begin to
synchronize teams begin toperform better.
There's research that showschildren in school, when their
(19:57):
brains are synchronizing in theclassroom, they're more engaged,
they're retaining informationbetter.
There's research that showswhen we're beginning to
synchronize we seem to have morepsychological safety.
We seem to be more prepared toshare information with people.
So there's all sorts ofinteresting reasons why
interbrain synchronization issignificant to us in the
(20:18):
organization.
It's the ability to collaborate, this ability to perform better
as a team.
And also, interestingly,neuroscience does reveal what
are some things that help that?
Well, some things that helpthat are the more we know people
on the whole, the more ourbrains start to synchronize.
So there's studies done withmothers and children and their
(20:40):
brains will synchronize a lottogether.
But really interesting on that,one mother and child talking
together, face to face, theirbrains will synchronize a lot.
Put them onto a screen andtheir brains will synchronize
less.
So I think there are someinteresting questions there in
terms of what work is best donewhere, because communicating via
(21:01):
screen seems to reduceinterbrain synchronization.
Um, all that said, there aretimes when you don't want brains
to synchronize.
If you want people to becreative and having different
ideas, then you don't wantpeople to look at the world from
a similar perspective.
You want differing views.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So again, it's just making people aware of the
benefits of interbrainsynchronization and times when
we need it and times when it'sless useful yeah, it reminds me
of some workshops I would havebeen involved in years ago where
people would have seen this asesoteric type stuff and yet it's
actually real.
Um, this ability for people to.
It's almost like finishing eachother's sentences.
(21:35):
There is a sort of there's ascience behind it.
It's just it sometimes feels abit weird.
How did that person I, I knowwhat you're thinking, kind of
thing.
But it does happen when peopleform those deep connections or
you have things like mirrorneurons anyway and other factors
that are are creating that bond.
And my theory on the screenthing is that when people feel
(21:55):
connected, there's an energyfield that binds them and the
screen interferes with thatsense of the and we can't
explain energy connection.
We know when we have it and weknow it when we don't.
You know it's that just feelingand in some languages they have
expressions around that whichyou know, around how they sense
other people and the screentends to I think it tends to
(22:20):
diminish some of that.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And hurrah for technology.
We're having this conversationtoday because of technology, so
hurrah for technology in manyways.
But yeah, there's a price topay with it as well.
We just need to be aware ofwhat work is best done where.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Absolutely.
So we've got this interbrainsynchronization.
Now, another key factor that isplaying out in the change,
change process and and you kindof refer to it earlier because
you're you're kind of a lot ofwhat you said earlier tends to
be activating the reward systemsin the brain and, let's say,
(22:52):
playing down or controlling thatsort of amygdala.
Um, you know more emotionalarea.
So let's get into the emotionalstuff now a little bit, because
you touch on a concept which isemerging as quite a hot topic
called interoception, and let'stalk about interoception, what
that is, and decision making ondistress and how people
interpret uncertainty and whatleaders can do to to, let's say,
(23:15):
support people when they'regoing through what they feel
emotionally charged transitionsyeah, and again, I think the
emotional, emotional aspects ofchange is so important and I
think, again, it's one of thoseareas we kind of perhaps
underestimate the importance ofemotions in terms of how we work
, how we perform, how we feelabout organizational change.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
So, yeah, as you say, interception is another really
interesting new area and thatwas another reason it drove me
to want to write the thirdedition, to go and explore it
more with, with neuroscientists,and what it's all about is that
ability to pick up on our that.
We talk about gut feelings andagain, science says there's
something to it.
Um, you know, we do have gutfeelings, um, but and and it's
(23:56):
about the ability to pick upaccurately on the, on those
feelings, and some people arebetter at it than others.
There was a really interestingstudy done in a city with
traders a guy called John Coateswho was a trader, now a
neuroscientist at Cambridge andhe was interested in why were
some traders just making betterdecisions better under stress
(24:18):
lasted a long time in what wasquite a stressful job, and one
of the things they found withcity traders the ones who were
really successful is they werebetter at interception.
In this particular case, theywere better at picking up what
their heart rate was withoutputting their hand on their
heart or their pulse.
They didn't know they werebetter at it, but those who were
tended to make the betterdecisions under stress, and
(24:40):
there's other research thatshows people who are good at
interception um tend to be ableto regulate their emotions
better, which is so importantduring change, and um they're
just better to better picking upon them accurately, um.
So that's that.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That's really important, that bit to manage
emotions I've read, I've heardabout that study and, um, I
think if somebody's out therenow maybe thinking, but okay, so
I'm doomed, I don't have it,actually I think the science is
starting to show that you canlearn.
It isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
absolutely that's.
That's the really good news.
That that is the really goodnews.
We can all get better at it andquite simple things and just
things like anyone who practicesyoga, when they're just doing
that body scan once a day, makesus better at picking up on
interception on our gut feelings, internal feelings.
So we can get better at it.
(25:30):
That's the really good news.
Again, it's one of those thingswe can all improve on.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Okay, and then let's talk about decision making under
stress.
What does stress do to ourability to make decisions?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, well, this is an interesting one in terms of,
um, male and female, wheredecisions begin to differ
between men and women, that that, um, men under stress will take
more risks, women under stresswill take fewer risks.
Um, so it's actually being inorganizations.
But under long, long, long-termstress, men will begin become
more cautious too.
But again, it's one of thosethings to just be aware of, of
(26:05):
the different reactions of menand women under stress, but also
to be aware that when you'vegot a mixed group of men and
women, that the male risk-takingtends to take over.
So the importance of listeningto everybody in the room,
because the risk-taking willtend to dominate if you've got
more men in the room, if you'vegot men in the room with women.
So it's just one of the thingsto be aware of, that why we
(26:27):
differ.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And there have been studies about the success rate
of, let's say, female heavyboard of management during
crisis situations, and perhapsthis explains a little bit
what's going on in terms ofmaybe not just their ability to
manage risk under stress andstressful situations.
There may be some other aspectsof empathy and that compassion
(26:51):
maybe sitting underneath it aswell, which we yeah, um, we may
or may not get to.
Um, how, how important is that?
Uh, empathy and compassion whenit comes to change?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I mean hugely important.
I think you know, I think I saywe are in deeply social
creatures more than we probablyrealize, I think I, I do think
that, think that the need forsocial connection, that sense of
empathy with us, I think is oneof those areas we've
underestimated at work.
I think we get it in ourpersonal lives that
relationships matter and on thewhole, when relationships are
(27:23):
good, life is pretty good.
But I do think it's one ofthose areas historically in
organizations we've kind ofexpected employees to walk
through the workplace door,either metaphorically, and
somehow things shouldn't affectus in quite the same way,
because we're professionals, soit shouldn't affect us quite the
same way.
But we absolutely do.
It's.
(27:43):
It say we are social creatures,we're constantly checking out
do I fit in, do I belong?
And that bit about empathy andfeeling that we're understood is
is important and it goes rightback to, you know, when we're
babies.
As mammals, we start as babies.
As babies we wouldn't make itthrough our first weeks, months,
years of life without someonetaking an interest in us.
(28:04):
And babies will scream and crywhen they're tired and they're
hungry, but also when they'reseparated from their caregiver,
because babies absolutely knowis somebody interested in me?
Do they care about me?
If they do, I'm okay, if not,I'm not okay.
And that kind of carries onthroughout life less overtly,
but again it's all feeling doesmy manager care about me?
Are they interested in me?
If they are, I'm okay, if not,I'm not okay.
(28:26):
So that need for socialconnection there's nothing soft
about it.
It has a big impact on ourability to perform and our
staying power and our resilience.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So social connection, empathy, really important and
there are so many differentstudies and methodologies out
there that continue to evengallop's 12 famous engagement
factors.
One of them is I have somebodywho cares about me at work right
.
And the uncertainty bit then,because, let's face it,
(28:57):
everything is uncertain if youthink about it right, because
you and I don't even know whatwe're going to say next.
That's uncertain.
Yeah, we're dealing with itright, we're kind of dealing
with it, okay.
So what is it about uncertaintyand how can leaders give
certainty to the uncertainty?
You're listening to LeadingPeople with me, gerry Murray.
(29:27):
My guest this week is workplaceneuroscience expert Hilary
Scarlett Coming up.
We explore why giving peoplecertainty, fairness and a sense
of control is far more powerfulthan most leaders realise, and
what happens in the brain whenwe get those things.
Right Now back to ourconversation.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, it's a good question, I think, especially at
the moment.
I think there's just so muchuncertainty generally in the
world it's not just in theworkplace, I think.
You know we're faced with somuch uncertainty in what's going
in all sorts of ways.
So I think it's particularlyrelevant at the moment.
And a couple of things.
I was working with anorganization last year where
they knew changes were coming upand they were HR changes, so
(30:09):
they're going to affect people'sjobs, but they didn't know what
the changes were.
So a couple of things we talkedabout with managers and leaders
.
There is one be a good listener.
You can always listen.
You might not have the answers,but actually being listened to,
not surprisingly, is rewardingto the brain, just feeling that
we're being really listened to.
And I think the other thing isgiving certainty about what you
(30:30):
can give certainty about.
So you might not be able togive certainty about when the
change will happen or what theywill be, but just giving people
certainty about the relationshipthey have with you and the way
in which you will communicatewith them, that you can say to
them okay, I don't know what'scoming up, but I promise you
I'll sit down with you everyThursday morning or whatever it
is, and I'll tell you what Iknow and I don't know.
So giving them certainty aroundthat.
(30:52):
And again, I think theimportance of short-term goals
when people are feeling veryuncertain, that as long as
people can feel I've achievedsomething today, I can tick
things off my list.
That kind of feels good.
So short-term goals can bereally useful in a time of
uncertainty Because, as you say,our brains are prediction
machines.
They crave certainty but theycan never have it.
As you say, we can areprediction machines.
They crave certainty but theycan never have it.
(31:14):
As you say, we can never haveit, but it's one of the things
our brains want.
And again, I think it's one ofthe things that's really useful
to be aware of that our brainswant it but they're never going
to have it.
So the little things that wecan do, and even small things,
what are even small things like?
I go to so many sessions wherepeople say you know, especially
(31:34):
during change, meetings havebeen called meetings, have been
put into their calendars ordiaries, but they don't know why
.
And because that threat stateis so much, the middle of the
threat state is so much strongerin our brains, we all kind of
panic and go what's it about it?
What have I done wrong?
It must be bad news.
So just little things like justsend an agenda or tell people
what the purpose of the meetingis.
(31:55):
It's these little things thatsettle the brain.
Oh, that's what the meeting'sabout.
I can focus back on my work now.
It's these little things thathelp provide certainty for
people and help people focusback on work.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I've had several guests on the program, A
lot of what you just said.
Some of them came in and AdamGalinsky Professor.
Adam said some of them came inand Adam Galinsky professor
talked about this thing aboutthe email, without telling you
what it is and people you know,distorting what could be and
getting all stressed out aboutit.
I've had Margaret Heffernan ontalking about embracing
uncertainty and how you know wecan't predict the future and
(32:29):
there's lots of role models outthere for doing that, etc.
So and one of the things that Ithink really important is this
idea of short-term goals, andnot just the short-term goals
that give quick wins, but thecelebration of those right.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Because I think again, becausethe threat stage is so much
stronger in our brain, we alltend to kind of kick ourselves
about the things I didn't do orI didn't get right.
So, as you say, I think youknow stopping and pausing with
the team and focusing on what wehave done well, what we have
gone right, because the brainwill tend to move on and worry
about the next thing.
So I think we need to with thebrain, we need to kind of
(33:02):
deliberately counterbalance thatimpact, that desire to go to
the threat, to the negative, toprotect ourselves, and
deliberately activate the rewardcenter in our brains.
So, just as you say say,thinking about the successes,
the things we've done well, isreally important yeah, and the,
the, the, the threat part of ourbrain is is valuable.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I mean, it's there for a reason and we should pay
attention to it and, at the sametime, if it starts running the
show, it can inhibit a lot ofthings for us.
So we, we know it can stress usout, and that now, an emerging
area which is getting uh well,it's been inhibit a lot of
things for us, so it can stressus out.
Now, an emerging area which isgetting well, it's been getting
a lot of, I suppose, focus inthe last few years and now, I
think, in some parts of theworld, becoming part of a
(33:44):
political discussion.
But this whole idea ofneurodiversity, right, and then
linking it also to psychologicalsafety, these are two themes
that have come back into thebook for you, or come into the
book in this new edition.
Why is this so important nowand what role does neuroscience
play in creating safer, moreinclusive workplaces where
people can thrive through change, regardless of how they are as
(34:09):
people?
So if they have a neurodiverseprofile or whatever, it's part
of acceptance, right, and it'sallowing people to be themselves
at work, and the whole idea ofpsychological safety is about
that as well.
So can you talk about that andhow you decided to include this
in the new edition?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
In the third edition.
Yeah, I think, because I thinkyou know just about, as you said
, there's much more awareness, Ithink, of neurodivergence now
neurodiversity, and I think mostworkshop sessions I run now
there'll always be a questionabout how does this apply to
people who are neurodivergent?
What does it mean if I'mmanaging a team where people are
neurodivergent and researchshows about 20% of the
population is neurodivergent, sothat's a big percentage of the
(34:54):
workforce or potential workforce, because it can be harder for
neurodivergent people to findwork.
So I think it's reallyimportant from both sides for
neurodivergent people to createa workplace where they feel they
can thrive.
But also it kind of makeseconomic sense from
organizations and countries'point of view to get these
people to get you know, enablepeople to work and to feel they
can contribute.
(35:14):
So yeah, so I thought it wasreally important to include it
in the book because lots ofquestions about it and that
chapter in the book onneurodiversity, what I've mainly
done is gone out to talk topeople who are neurodivergent
but also experts in change, sogetting so actually that part,
that chapter of the book, isslightly different.
It's got three kind ofconversations with people who
(35:39):
are neurodivergent but expertsin change as well and just them
talking about their experienceof change and what helped them.
And I think interesting.
A lot of things that helpneurodivergent people actually I
think are good for all of us.
You know, know the thingspeople will talk about, um,
about um, open plan offices, thelighting, the distractions, um,
are difficult for all of us andresearch shows we all, all our
(36:01):
cortisol levels go up when we'reworking in open plan office, um
, but for neuro diversion peopleis that bit worse it, it
impedes their ability to work.
That that bit more so.
And I think the message camehome loud and clear that
sometimes neurodivergent peoplejust need a bit more time to
reflect.
So there might be anannouncement and they might like
to go away and think about itovernight and come back the next
(36:23):
day.
But again, I think that's goodfor most employees actually,
that chance to go home, reflect,think about it, ask questions
the next day.
But particularly forneurodivergent people sometimes,
um, and they had thoseone-to-one conversations that
came home loud and clear fromthe people I spoke to that one
person talked about just havinga manager who just each day,
just checked in with her are youokay?
(36:43):
What do you?
What's your plan for today.
What are you getting done?
She said that made such adifference.
Another man I spoke to said,yeah, again, just be able to
have that ability to haveone-to-ones with the manager to
talk about it.
And I think the other thing thatcame home is you know, when we
have change, as we've said, youknow, habits, systems need to
change.
For some neurodivergent peoplethat can be harder because
they've got real workaroundsthat you know, using a certain
(37:05):
system or way of doing things,that's what they've kind of made
work for them in the workplaceand change might take that away
and they might be that bit moredependent on that old system.
So, again, just recognizingsome of those changes can be
harder for neurodivergent peoplethan the neurotypical people.
Psychological safety I thinkagain really important for all
of us, but particularly againfor neurodivergent people that
(37:28):
sense of I can be me, I can askthe daft question, so to speak.
I, yeah, yeah, I can ask thedaft question, so to speak.
Yeah, I can ask questions,although I'm being constructive
and helpful and doing it withthe right mindset.
That's what we need, again,important for all of us, but I
think particularly forneurodivergent people, to feel
that they're safe and they canask questions or make comments
(37:48):
or whatever, as long as it'sbeing constructive.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, I just read recently, uh, another article by
amy edmondson oh yeah, I thinkit was in the harvard business
review, about clarifying whatyour psychological safety is.
Not because, like, everythingis developing its own legs yes,
a bit of mythology andsimplification and exaggeration
and all sorts of things.
So that article is is anattempt to to kind of say you
(38:13):
know this, this is what it isand this is what it's not, even
though sometimes organization, Ithink, a lot of in some
situations not a lot, but somesituations there's a
simplification of these thingsand then, um, they're
interpreted in a certain way andand then they actually lose
their impact.
You know, because she says like, for example, psychologically
(38:34):
safety just to cite one thing,is is not about necessarily
being nice all the time.
It you know, it's maybe moreabout being respectful rather
than just being nice, so it'snot about just going.
Oh, we have to be alwaysaccommodating everybody's
requests.
Here it's about a way toexpress things, to respect
people, to allow people toexpress themselves, to have
(38:55):
their opinions, without beingjudged by those.
So it's kind of interesting toalso explore those things.
So you have it in the changecontext and that's because of
the potential for the fight orflight parts of the brain to be
activated, even if a team haspsychological safety before the
change is announced, what impactdoes it have and how can
(39:18):
organizations and leaders youknow ensure that it doesn't
disrupt a psychologically safeteam?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
yeah, because it's, and it's quite a precious thing.
Psychological safety as well,because it's, it's, it's uh, you
know it's hard to build andeasy to lose, I think, because
it could take, especially ifleads are under pressure or
stressed.
You know, somebody suddenlygets angry with somebody for
saying something or snaps atthem or whatever.
That could have a real hit interms of psychological safety.
So you know, I think again itgoes, it clings back to,
(39:48):
particularly for leaders, thisbit about emotional regulation.
But to manage their emotions isso important as part of
psychological safety, becausepsychological safety, safety, it
really is where leads have tobe role models.
It starts with them.
That ability to shareinformation, to disclose
information, to ask for feedbackin a constructive way, I mean
it.
It absolutely starts, startswith them.
(40:09):
So it's um, yeah, so I thinkpsychological safety, emotional
regulation kind of go togetherin a sense in terms of the
importance of them okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
So I guess at this stage, if I put myself in the
shoes of my listeners we'vetalked a lot about a lot of the
key concepts here and they mightbe craving for a couple of
examples, like fromorganizations who are actually
doing this.
So it's not just fine in theory.
They're actually organizationsout there and you write about
them, I believe, in the book uhwho are actually exploring this
(40:40):
and how to use it, how to usethe neuroscience constructively
during change.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So would you like to share a few um yeah, I mean just
on the um, on theneurodiversity.
I spoke to phillips, um, whoare an organization that seems
to be really ahead of the gamein terms of neurodiversity and
what they're doing is setting uplots of networks neurodiversity
networks across theorganisation and part of that is
(41:05):
about enabling people who areneurodivergent to deal with
change, to come and talk abouttheir particular issues and what
they're doing is giving themkind of tactics and tips as to
how to deal with change, to comeand talk about their particular
issues and what they're doingis giving them kind of tactics
and tips as to how to navigatethrough change.
So philips, I think, is areally interesting organization
in terms of of neurodiversityand change um.
Another organization I've beenworking with over the years is
(41:27):
pepsico and um.
Again, I think they've beenreally struck by the emotional
sides of change, the socialaspects of change.
That's come from neuroscience.
So, talking to them, they're acase study in this new third
edition and what they've reallytaken on board is that bit about
treating leaders as people, soallowing leaders to talk about
(41:50):
their emotions and how they'redoing.
Leaders to talk about theiremotions and how they're doing.
They've really picked up onthat.
They said, every workshop,every coaching session starts
off talking about the leader asa person.
How are you, how are you doing?
And rather than going into youas a leader, it's you as a
person, because recognizing it'sso important for leaders to be
(42:10):
able to manage their emotionsagain, to feel that people have
got empathy for them as leaders,to be able to manage their
emotions again, to feel thatpeople have got empathy for them
as leaders.
And also what it led them to do,I think, is this sense of trust
and dealing with uncertainty.
It meant what they did incertain cases is kind of
disclose information to certainlevels of managers they wouldn't
normally have done before, butthey said it was really
important, they kind of trustedthem and nothing leaked, it
worked.
(42:31):
And they said that really builta good bond between leaders and
those managers because themanagers felt I'm being trusted,
I'm having information sharedwith me.
At the moment that's kind ofconfidential, but I need it to
be able to be a good manager.
So, again, as they say, it's amindset.
I think PepsiCo they would sayPepsiCo UK would say it shifted
(42:53):
their mindset about, aboutchange, how you go about it and
just recognizing what's what.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
These kind of fundamental things we need in
order to enable people to changenow you I think you mentioned
pepsico uk and and how does thatrelate to?
From your experience of this,how does it relate to pepsico
worldwide?
I because I have read stuff inthe past where PepsiCo was quite
harsh driven environment right.
(43:19):
So it's very encouraging tohear these stories.
And has there been a culturechange in the entire
organization or is thissomething that's bubbling up
from the local entities?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, I've worked with PepsiCo Europe and PepsiCo
UK, so that's kind of the limitof my knowledge.
But certainly, yeah, I meanthey're honest about it.
They will say that they're notjust doing this to be nice,
they're doing it to do itbecause it helps the bottom line
as well, that if you takepeople through change well and
people feel good and capable andcompetent, that's a good thing
(43:54):
for the organization in terms ofperformance.
So they've got you know,they've got that commercial
mouth to them.
Yeah, they're not doing it justto be nice, they're doing it
because they believe it givesthem a competitive edge too.
And I think you know they wouldsay that's partly you know why
they've caught the attention ofthe organization.
Because this is aboutperformance for all employees,
(44:14):
isn't it Abel's performance?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Yes, and the brain is a key variable in our ability
to perform anything, isn't thatright?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Absolutely.
For most of us, that's prettymuch all we've got is our brains
is our key work tool.
We're not out there working onthe land, so absolutely it's the
key bit to understand and workwith yeah, and remarkable how it
isn't it's still an emergingthing to put it into the mix.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
When you're talking about things like organizational
change, it's still, you know,we still have to communicate to
people that and when, when we'reasking for better performance,
etc.
We have to talk about the brainbecause, you know, it's not
like some sort of um, I don'tknow, uh, just okay, just go do
it.
I mean, if you're, if you'renot in a in a good place
(45:04):
emotionally or whatever, you'refeeling fatigued or you're
feeling stressed or whatever itis, you might not be able to
rise to the occasion for thatperiod of time or in that
context and equally, you know,you might be overstimulated on,
you know, as at times as well.
So it is understanding this,which is which is quite critical
, right no, absolutely, becauseit it's.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, because our brains are what we've, what
we've got and I think you knowto understand them and work with
it.
Yeah, it is so important.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Okay, so, coming to the end, what's the big idea or
key takeaway that you'd like ourlisteners to leave with today?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I think the big one for me is if we can understand
our brains better, then we canwork with that knowledge, and I
think we have got more controlover our brains than we probably
realize.
Just having that awareness ofwhat's going on for us, I think,
gives us choice about how werespond in the moment.
So for me that's the big one isif we can understand our brains
(46:05):
better, we can work with thatknowledge or we can help
ourselves and others performbetter and, in terms of
emotional wellbeing too, we canhelp ourselves flourish, I think
.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Okay.
So how can people get in touchwith you and is there anything
special?
We hinted at it earlier thatyou'd like to offer them, and
I'll put links in the show notes.
So, Hilary, how can peoplereach out to you and what is the
special offer?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Do reach out to me on linkedin or you can come via
the website scarletandgraycom.
But I'm on linkedin.
I'm quite active on linkedin,so do come and find me on
linkedin and my publisher willgive a discount offer to the
third edition, which is actuallycoming out on the third of july
in most of the world and end ofjuly in north america and
canada.
So it's not out until July, butI can provide an offer that
(46:54):
will get people at least 25% offthe book by my publisher.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
And if you're listening to this in 2026, which
can happen you'll know thatthis book is widely available by
that stage on all goodbookshops, right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, from 3rd of July.
It's 3rd of July 25, it'll beout there.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So reach out to Hilary, mention the podcast and
Hilary will send you a code fora special special discount, and
you can even pre-order the book,I believe, if you're listening
to this in the meantime.
So, as always, hilary thanks alot for sharing your insights,
tips and wisdom with me and mylisteners here today.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Pleasure.
Thanks very much for invitingme.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
When you're in a position of power, you release
more chemical messengers thataffect your mood, including
serotonin, and so once you getthat kind of addictive notion of
you're in power, you kind ofcontinue to seek the reward and
at the same time, when you're ina position of power, your
empathy is reduced.
So you start feeling lessempathy with other people.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
My next guest is BBC journalist and science writer
Melissa Hogenboom, whose newbook Breadwinners explores how
power.
Whose new book Breadwinnersexplores how power, gender,
ambition and leadershipintersect at work and at home.
It's a fresh take on whatreally drives behaviour, how
(48:28):
invisible norms shape ourchoices and what leaders can do
to make change that sticks.
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast
Until next time.
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