February 2, 2025 • 42 mins
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On this episode of Leading People, we promise you’ll uncover the keys to building an exceptional workplace culture with our distinguished guest, Koen Dewettinck, CEO of Great Place to Work Belgium and a professor at Vlerick Business School.
During our conversation, Koen walks us through his fascinating exploration into organizational psychology and shares his insights on creating environments where employees feel truly valued. This episode is your chance to learn how the power of the employee voice can redefine success in any organization.
Great Place to Work is on a global mission to redefine workplace culture, and Koen introduces us to the tools and insights needed to achieve this transformation. From its origins in the U.S. to expanding into 180 countries, including Belgium, we discuss how this pioneering organization measures and enhances workplace culture.
Koen also shares how their evidence-based approach, complemented by workshops and tools, supports organizations in building robust cultures grounded in trust, credibility, and integrity. He offers insights on aligning theory with practice to support continuous growth and highlights the importance of personal development opportunities.
Finally, we learn about how Great Place to Work celebrates exceptional workplaces, showcasing organizations that excel in creating high engagement and a great work environment.
Curious?
Listen now to this insightful conversation that could transform your approach to leadership and organizational culture.
Discover a Great Place to Work here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Leading People with me Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use,
whether you're here for usefultools or thought
thought-provoking ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
What makes a workplace truly great?
How would you rate where youwork and if you're a leader,
what could you do to make it aneven better place to work?
(01:09):
Koon de Wetink, CEO of GreatPlace to Work Belgium and a
professor at Vleric BusinessSchool, joins Leading People to
reveal the key ingredients ofhigh-trust leadership and
thriving organizational cultures.
In this episode, Kuhn shareswhy the employee voice is the
most critical factor inworkplace success, the
leadership behaviours thatcreate a high-trust,
(01:29):
high-performance culture, andhow evidence-based culture
management can helporganisations attract and retain
top talent.
Are you ready to discover thestrategies that turn good
workplaces into truly greatplaces to work?
Let's hear what Koen has to say.
(01:52):
Koen de Wetink, welcome toLeading People.
Thank you thank you, Koen.
You're the CEO of Great Placeto Work in Belgium and you're
also a professor at VlericBusiness School, so one of the
top business schools in Europe.
But first, before we get intoGreat Place to Work and your
(02:15):
work as a professor, so mylisteners can get to know you
better, how did you get here andtoday?
Were there people or places orevents or epiphany moments that
stood out on your journey towhere you are today, and why did
you choose a career in academia?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Very interesting question, jerry.
I basically started offstudying psychology probably to
try to save myself, I guess, asmany of us do.
I went into psychology, thenmoved into work and
organizational psychology.
Afterwards I basically alreadythat's 25 years ago I joined the
(02:55):
business school very businessschool.
Then I went for a PhD lookinginto how can we motivate people
and what are the best ways to dothat, came back, went to the US
, came back to Belgium and sincethen I would say my passion has
been about how can we createenvironments, working
environments where people reallyfeel engaged and passionate and
(03:17):
where they're also contributingto a great level, and so I've
been looking into many driversof that.
Part of it is the impact of theleader, part of it is the
impact of the team, but also theHR angle, looking into how
organizations can set up systems, processes and tools and
solutions that boost engagementand performance.
(03:41):
That has been my area for manyyears.
Part of it research, but alsolots of teaching towards HR
audiences, but also a lot ofpeople management courses across
the globe.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Right, okay, so it was at Case Western or somewhere
you studied in the US.
Yeah, okay, it's quite awell-known school, exactly
Western, or somewhere youstudied in the US.
Yeah, okay, it's quite awell-known school.
Exactly.
So if we looked in at GreatPlace to Work and we look at the
(04:16):
core mission of Great Place toWork and perhaps just reflecting
what you've said, maybe you canalso talk about what inspired
you personally to lead the GreatPlace to Work in Belgium.
So what is the core mission andwhat inspired you to get
involved in that?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Great question, gerry .
Indeed, because for many yearsI've been involved in helping
organizations, and especiallyleaders, in becoming better in
terms of how to deal with people.
I would probably call that alittle bit the kind of push
strategy.
With people, I would probablycall that a little bit the kind
of push strategy, and I thinkGreat Place to Work for me is
another way to try to achieveand accomplish the same things,
(04:51):
which is helping companies tobecome better and greater, and
so Great Place to Work is a verynice complement to it, because
it's a vehicle that helps us tosupport companies in basically
getting an idea, grasping,measuring their culture,
improving their culture and alsocreating community of
(05:13):
organizations that can inspireeach other.
So for me it is quitecomplementary.
The ultimate goal is the sameone, but the way to get there is
completely different.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And just for our listeners and even for myself,
how long has Great Place to Workitself as a concept?
Because, belgium, I take it,you're running a kind of a
franchise.
Is that right, yeah?
So where did it originate fromand how long has it been around?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, so Great place to work is basically american.
It's indeed a licensee model.
I think we are currentlyoperating in about 180 countries
, so it is really a globalorganization.
It started about 40 years agoand, of course, it has gradually
grown.
In belgium, it's already herefor more than 20 years, and
(06:06):
actually that's also where thelink is between my academic
career and great place to work,because it's actually Vleric
Business School in Belgium thatholds the licensee for this
region, and so that's how thesethings came together.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So let's get into what it means to be a great
place to work, because, youmentioned earlier, you're
looking at the impact of leaders, you're looking at the impact
of the teams they lead and theHR function, and I have
listeners out there who fit intoall those categories, because I
know many of them.
They write to me and stuff likethat.
So just to inform those outthere who may not be so aware of
(06:48):
this, from your perspective,what are the key elements that
make an organization a greatplace to work?
And maybe then we can also youcan dovetail that into sort of
what's the approach of greatplace to work?
What are sort of the criteriayou're using to evaluate
organizations?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Okay, If I may, I would split it up in two parts
Maybe.
First of all, try to explain alittle bit what are we doing
with Great Place to Work, whatis the kind of activities, what
is the support that we areoffering towards companies to
become better, and then thesecond part I would say is then
looking into what is thecriteria that we are losing, uh,
(07:28):
using sorry, not losing, usingin terms of defining what a
great place to work is.
So first, what we do isbasically we measure the
strength of the culture in anorganization, yeah, and so we
measure it, and we also certifyorganizations that are doing a
(07:49):
great job, and companies can usethat certification in terms of
strengthening their employerbrand.
That is one aspect of whatwe're doing, but I think an
equally or probably even moreimportant part is beyond the
branding, is basically offeringa platform to organizations to
(08:10):
measure and improve theirculture.
So what we are actually doingfrom Great Place to Work and we
do that through a globalplatform, one unique platform we
are surveying employees abouttheir experience in their
company, and if a sufficientamount of people are
(08:30):
sufficiently positive abouttheir experience, we would
certify that organization as agreat place to work.
So this is, I think, a veryimportant aspect, because you
could say we are offering acertification, but the
certification is based on theemployee voice.
Yeah, so we are doing partlyauditing of what, what hr
(08:53):
processes and tools companieshave in place, but the main part
of the certification isbasically how people really feel
on a daily basis, theatmosphere within the company.
I think that's a very importantaspect.
The second element is themeasuring and the managing part.
(09:14):
So it's not we are basicallyoffering we have a global
platform, we have access to thatplatform, but we can also give
access to that platform to ourcustomers.
So basically, we are offeringthem an opportunity to measure
their culture, but also to dodeep dive analysis and to go
further, even to do some pulsesurveys and so on.
(09:35):
So it's basically, let's say,an opportunity to manage culture
in a more evidence-based way.
Yeah, and that's sometimes alittle bit forgotten about what
great place, what great place towork, has to offer, but it's
becoming a more and moreimportant element.
And so, next to thecertification because some
(09:56):
companies would say we want tostrengthen our employer brand,
please certify us so that we canshow it to the outside world
more important is companies thatgo on a journey together with
us and we do kind of zeromeasurement and we also organize
workshops together withstakeholders involved, which
basically helps the organizationto, yeah, use bottom-up
(10:20):
feedback towards furtherimprovement.
Okay, and that, I think, iswhat we are basically doing in
terms of the services and thesupport we give to companies.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
On Leading People.
The goal is to bring youcutting-edge thought leadership
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joining our leading peoplelinkedin community of hr leaders
and talent professionals thequestion is and that brings us
to the second part how do youdefine a strong culture?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
how do you define a great place to work?
And the good thing there isthat it's really a very rigid
methodology.
It has been developed overthose 40 years and it's a kind
of normative model, you couldsay, where we believe that
there's a few important elementsthat define a great place to
work, and one of them is thehigh trust leadership.
(11:41):
You already mentioned theimportance of leadership.
I can go a little bit deeperinto what it really means, but
one part is high trustleadership, which is how do
employees appreciate theconnection between them and
their leadership and managementin the organization?
The second part is how dopeople relate to their job, the
(12:04):
meaningfulness in the job.
And the third element is how dothey relate to the people
surrounding them, how do theyrelate to the team, and that
part is called camaraderie.
Okay, and so camaraderie is howdo people relate to their
colleagues?
Pride is how people relate totheir job, and then, indeed, we
(12:25):
have that trust element in termsof leadership and maybe to fine
tune that a little bit more,there is three characteristics.
One is the credibility.
To what extent do people tellus we have the feeling that our
top management knows whatthey're doing, that they are
sufficiently communicating aboutit and that they also act in an
(12:47):
integral way.
To what extent are theybasically walking the talk?
That is the credibility aspect.
The other aspect of leadership,trust, is respect.
To what extent do people havethe feeling that they get
sufficient support in terms oftraining, equipment,
appreciation, but also to whatextent do they feel that
(13:11):
management really cares aboutthem?
And that's the respect element.
And then the third element thatlinks to high trust, leadership
, is fairness.
To what extent do people tellus that anyone within the
organization is, let's say, yeah, has the same chances, is dealt
with in a similar way, whetherthere's justice in the company,
(13:34):
whether there's equity, whetherthe benefits are shared in a
proper way, and so on and so on?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
no-transcript okay, and a question that kind of
comes into my head because we'renot going to name any companies
or anything during this,because it's uh, you want to
keep the fairness aspect, Iguess and at the same time, what
sort of feedback have you gotfrom companies who go through
the process?
Maybe they start off and theyhave a certain they're at a
(14:15):
certain place or they've got acertain perspective on this.
Maybe they think it's hard workor whatever.
What sort of feedback do youget, particularly for the ones
that go on the journey?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, well, maybe, coming back to the fact that I
don't want to mention any names,because the appreciation to all
of our customers is so high,because what I feel is, the
companies that we have theopportunity to work with are
genuinely and I think that'sthat's a critical element they
genuinely take care of theirpeople.
(14:45):
They truly believe that bytaking care of their people, by
by creating a nice workingenvironment, that that really
makes the difference, and so,and and they also take a
vulnerable position because theyare willing to truly listen to
their people in an unfilteredway, yeah, and so it takes guts
(15:08):
for a company also to, to, yeah,be open towards the feedback
that people are giving.
So that's why I I I appreciateall of the, the companies that
that are working with us, and Idon't want to differentiate too
much between those that aremaybe a little bit higher or a
little bit better or a bit moreof experience, but but I think
(15:29):
that's a key element they, theytruly believe that listening to
their people in a systematic wayand using that feedback in
terms of continuous improvementreally makes a difference, and I
think that's what they all havein common.
Industries differ, right, butwe see that if you go back to
(15:53):
those five dimensions, that backto those five dimensions, that
ultimately it makes a hugedifference for a company and it
is very, I would say, powerfullevers to work on strengthening
your culture.
And so what we typically dobecause most of our the
companies we are working withthey we embark on a journey
(16:14):
together.
It's not a one-shot kind ofmeasuring and then you show to
the outside world that you gotcertified.
No, basically, the kind ofstandard procedure is that we
work together for three years,we do a measurement, we give the
feedback to the differentlayers in the organizations.
We can also facilitate thebottom-up exercises, trying to
(16:36):
go into solutions in terms ofand the opportunities for
improvement that were identified.
And so it is actually a journey.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
It is, let's say, a way to to keep a finger on the
pulse in terms of what is theatmosphere within the
organization and I guess thatalso helps avoid this idea of
lip service, or what would youcall it today, people washing or
whatever you want to call theterm today which makes it look
(17:05):
like we're trying to be a goodplace to work as a one off
exercise.
Exactly, deep down, if theydon't do the journey aspect,
because things will, challengeswill come along, et cetera, and
you know, organizations willhave to adapt and if the
measures are robust enough, theadaptation should also maintain
the status of a great place towork, right.
(17:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's also the good thing, because it's a
global platform.
We can also provide a lot ofopportunities for benchmarking,
where companies can compare withothers into more specific
elements.
But also you have thehistorical, the historical
perspective, and people cancompare with how they they, how
they did last year or some yearsbefore.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So it creates all kinds of opportunities to really
take a deep dive into, let'ssay, the culture and how it is
evolving within, within theorganization you've been looking
at my questions, because mynext question is how has the
concept of a great place to workchanged over time, particularly
with the rise of things likeremote working and hybrid models
?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, what you actually see, and that's another
element that I maybe need tofind.
The model has not changed a lot, so I think it has been
validated over and over againand there's more and more
research also linking how ourcompany is doing in terms of the
(18:28):
great place to work,assessments, and what is the
impact in terms of beingattractive towards candidates.
Maybe even more important,being attractive towards
candidates, maybe even moreimportant, being attractive to
the right candidates, becausewhat we actually see is that the
cost per candidate decreases byhaving the label right.
But we also look into morebottom line how well our company
(18:53):
is doing and there's more andmore evidence that indeed, it
seems to help to be certifiedand to work on your culture, to
be also more successful as anorganization.
So, as such, the coredimensions of the model, they
did not change that much, but wealso provide an opportunity for
the companies we're workingwith to, yeah, also assess other
(19:16):
elements beyond our model.
So actually, again, I'mreferring to the platform we
have all sets of standardquestions, but you can also
customize questions and itemslinked to all kinds of topics,
yeah, and I can imagine if youare going hybrid and you want to
find out a little bit moreabout how is your company or
(19:39):
your people, how are theyexperiencing this, then we can
also insert this in the survey.
It will not be taken intoaccount for the certification,
but, of course, the data becomesavailable to the company and
they can start working on it.
So, as such, the core model didnot change over time.
As such, the core model did notchange over time.
(20:00):
It has been fine-tuned and ithas been further and further
validated to make sure that theitems are the right and the most
valid items to be asked.
But, of course, we also createflexibility for companies to tap
into the topics which are morerelevant to them, specifically
by giving them the opportunityto customize the survey,
specifically by giving them theopportunity to customize the
survey, and they can even sendout surveys themselves if they
(20:21):
want to, and that's also anopportunity.
So, basically, you could saythat we are offering a tool to
do culture management in anevidence-based way.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, I'm going to ask you a little bit about one
of the things you just said.
In terms of evidence, you saidthe cost per candidate decreases
.
What drives that?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Well, what you actually see is that and of
course, there's lots of researchthat tries to tap into this one
this is maybe a bit more basedon my experience working
together with our clients, maybea bit more based on my
experience working together withour clients what we typically
see is that there's notnecessarily a huge increase of
candidates, but, one way or theother, better candidates, and
(21:07):
that's why I would say it'sprobably not that all of a
sudden you have much morecandidates, employees knocking
on your door, but one way or theother, um yeah, it's the better
ones that you're getting in.
So what you actually see isbetter people knocking on your
door, but, of course, the costof the acquisition is also
(21:29):
reduced yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
so, um, I I have to ask you this question because
I'm sure my listeners out thereare wondering about this how
does Great Place to Work comparewith some of the other models
out there, like Top Employers,nps, gallup, because now that
I've heard you talk about it,are there some overlaps or do
you do something different?
(21:54):
Are you kind of competing witheach other for these you know
for, for business with thesecompanies, or what?
What have you noticed?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
that I think it's a well.
There's a few elements.
First of all, if you look intoone aspect of what we are
offering, which is acertification which links to
employer branding, there I thinkthe big difference is that we
are basically using the employeevoice and many of the the other
(22:23):
labels, let's say are not doingthat.
What most of them are doing isthey talk to hr and they're
asking hr about what are youdoing and based on that kind of
assessment, which can be veryuseful, but based on that
assessment, you would getcertified or not.
What we do is whateverpractices you have and we also
(22:45):
have smaller companies maybethat are, you know, are less
sophisticated in terms of HRapproach but what we are looking
in is to the experience of theteam members, the employees
within the organization.
So I think, in terms ofcredibility at least that would
be our claim we'd rather, uh,believe the employee rather than
(23:10):
the one setting of the systems.
But on the other hand, ofcourse you can imagine, the
value towards hr is much biggerbecause you get feedback, which
many of the other models, yeah,you just map what you're doing
without seeing what the impactis on the people in your company
.
So I think that's an importantdistinction using the employee
(23:32):
voice towards certification andrecognition.
Employee voice towardscertification and recognition.
I sometimes would say we're notonly, let's say, improving and
making your facade moreattractive as a company, but
we're also helping you to manageyour backdoor.
It's not only telling howattractive you are, but it's
also helping you to become moreattractive on a daily basis as a
(23:55):
company, as an employer.
So that's one aspect.
The other aspect, indeed, yeah,we are offering this
opportunity to do surveys, toask questions to people, to
analyze those in depth and alsoto help you to improve.
I think what is specific aboutwhat we are offering is a kind
(24:17):
of yeah, it's software as aservice, it's a package that
basically empowers you yeah, todo it yourself.
Yeah, so we believe that ourcontribution is not necessarily
doing the analysis and helpingyou to do the analysis.
Of course, that's part of it,but we basically think that we
(24:37):
can help you in strengtheningyour culture and also it's your
job to be done.
So I think it's also a littlebit of a different perspective.
The data that we are gathering,that we are collecting is is
fully accessible to thecompanies themselves and they
can do analysis, they can dowhatever they want to do, a
(24:58):
highly sophisticated platformthat has been developed on a
global scale.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, so that kind of then dovetails a little bit
into a question around and thisrelates a bit to the quality of
the candidate as well around theemployee experience, and the
question really is what are someof the big trends or shifts
that you're noticing inworkplace culture and employee
expectations, and what are someof the trends in terms of what
(25:27):
organizations and companies aredoing to become even better
workplaces?
In response to, because we have, you know, with the younger
generation, there's always thistalk about generational aspects
and, whether it's true or not,that's always debatable.
Interesting, yeah, becausethere's a lot of the juries out
on that.
For those of us who are gettinga bit older, sometimes we can
(25:50):
also look at TikTok videos andInstagrams and all sorts of
things, exactly.
So this kind of thing comes upevery so often, but it's it's
not even the generational thing,it's just what are the trends
out there around employeeexpectations in terms of the
experience of going to work.
Because you mentioned meaning,one of the criterias, apart from
(26:10):
high trust leadership, is thatthere's meaningfulness in the
job and they can relate to theother people.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So let's talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry
Murray.
My guest this week is Koen deWetink, ceo of Great Places to
Work, belgium.
Coming up next, koen shares whythe best workplaces don't just
measure culture, they manage it.
No-transcript.
(26:52):
So stay tuned for thesegame-changing insights.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, no, I think that's true.
If you take a bit more of aholistic perspective, I think
the meaningfulness is becoming amore and more important one.
I mean, we're spending a lot oftime on the job and people
start thinking about you knowwhat is behind this, what is the
kind of contribution that I'mmaking in my job, together with
(27:18):
my colleagues as part of theorganization.
I think that's a dimensionwhere we although it's already a
long time in our model, butthis has, let's say, become more
and more important, so theexpectations are also much
higher.
Being purpose-driven is nice,but it needs to be credible, and
if it is credible, I think it'sbasically a true source of, of
(27:41):
engagement of people, and it'salso a source to attract and to
retain people.
So for sure that this one hasincreased in terms of importance
.
I think another element that wesee consistently popping up is,
um, yeah, it's about how can yougrow yourself as an individual
(28:02):
within that organization, andagain, this is becoming more and
more an important element thatbasically has a fundamental
impact on people's engagement.
We see that companies are moreand more offering career
guidance and, yes, there's anindividual responsibility and we
all have to shape our owncareers.
(28:24):
But what we see in those greatplaces to work is that they
really put a lot of effort atdifferent levels in terms of
setting up processes, but, Ithink, even more in making sure
that the direct leaders, thesupervisors, the managers, that
they also take up an active role, an interest and an active role
in shaping the careers of theirpeople, and this is becoming
(28:46):
really a key element, not onlyto retain people but also to
attract them, I would say.
And maybe a third element thatwe see more and more popping up
is, yeah, the individual, theindividualized care.
Yes, there needs to be fairness, there needs to be consistency
in terms of how we are, let'ssay, dealing with people in our
(29:10):
company, but at the same time,we need to deal with them as
individuals, and that sometimesalso asks for more personalized
care, coaching, career coaching,but also other kinds of
coaching, and indeed we see thatthis is really something that
has been growing a lot the lastyears if we look into our great
(29:31):
places to work.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, I've been watching a lot of the uh reports
and analysis and and even withclients I work with um.
You know, like 30, 40 years agoit was all about could you make
it up the ladder today?
I mean, it was kind oflogically flawed because most
organizations like pyramids sothat there's few, fewer and
fewer ladders to go up, and so alot of people got stuck in kind
(29:55):
of well, I just go to work andor I get paid at the end of the
month and younger people realizethey're.
The climbing the ladder is notwhat many of people don't want.
That today because it comeswith a lot of.
There's a lot, an awful lot ofunhappy managers and leaders out
there.
We have to recognize we talkabout engagement and managers
need to engage.
Sometimes managers don't feelengaged themselves, so we can't
(30:17):
beat them all the time, but alot of people are going.
I don't really want to.
I just want to go in and dogreat work and have great
colleagues produce stuff that Ifeel proud of and that.
So we're seeing and hearing alot of that out there and the
question I have for you now ishow do you foresee the role of
leadership evolving in creatinggreat places to work and meeting
(30:39):
these expectations over thenext years.
What advice would you giveleaders who want to build better
workplace cultures?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah no.
I think there's maybe twoelements that I would like to
emphasize here.
The first one is put the peoplefirst.
In all the kind of processesthat we have you talked about
growth perspective, careermanagement that's what I see
those companies doing thestarting point is what is your
ambitions as an individual teammember, as an individual
(31:09):
contributor?
And then the next question ishow can we find opportunities
within the organization?
Is, how can we findopportunities within the
organization, being it jobs,being it projects, being it
whatever that will fit with yourambitions?
And I think it's starting fromthe individual and then trying
(31:30):
to see how can we create acontext that is best fit, which
has been completely different inthe past, where we had the
context and the question was howcan we fit people into it?
So I think that would be myfirst thing People first in
everything that we're doing interms of the experience that we
are providing to our people.
The next thing, and it's a verybasic one, and that's also, if
(31:52):
you look into best workplaces,certified companies, because
best workplaces, that'scompanies that are not only
certified but that also go forcompetition to say we are the
best.
So if you then look into howare companies that are not
certified, the certified and thebest workplaces.
Where are the biggestdifferences?
(32:14):
Well, it is a very basic,fundamental thing.
It goes back to thatcredibility that we've touched
on before.
Walking the talk extremelydifficult, yeah, walking the
talk.
Transparency, clearcommunication, listening to
people and using their input toreally change, also as an
(32:34):
organization.
I think this is really keyelement.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It has been there for a long time, but I think it's
becoming more and more importantyeah, and it was just struck me
as you were talking about theindividual, understanding the
individual and what they want toto get out of work.
It really does require acoaching style of listening.
And you know, rather thansaying, coon, I think you'd be
(32:59):
good at this, and poor coonsaying I better agree with my
boss because, whatever now it'ssaying, what we see is this uh,
how do you feel about whatyou're doing?
Where do you see yourselfevolving?
What you're able to do, whatare the things that really light
, light you up and float yourboat every every week?
What are the things that dragyou down in terms of energy?
(33:20):
And these are the kinds ofquestions but a leader has to be
open to listen to what theyhear.
Now they can't, they can'trespond probably positively to
everything, but they certainlycan show a willingness to
explore it right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, and at the end of the day, because if I take a
bit more my academic angle nowagain, and if I look into
performance systems and so on,and if you then look into what
is now basically driving theirimpact, well, often it comes
back to what was the quality ofthe conversation?
What was the quality of theconversation, what was the
(33:56):
quality of the connection whenpeople are sitting together and
are discussing about what are wedoing, what do we plan to do
and how can we do it even betterin the future.
It comes back to basic elements, but it is still a very
difficult thing to implement, torealize and to make reality on
a daily basis and how, just aswe get closer to the end of the
(34:21):
conversation.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
You know you worked in this area for quite some time
and you do have some peoplearound you that help you, and
that.
How is your own approach toleadership evolved by being
involved in this?
That's?
Speaker 3 (34:34):
an interesting one For me.
It's, of course, a greatopportunity to be on both sides
of the same thing, right?
Because you're doing research,you try to figure out what is
engaging people, what is thebest context like?
(34:54):
But you also know thatsometimes there's a gap between
theory and practice.
But of course these thingsshould be aligned with each
other and that's how I try tolook into it.
You know there are certainideas.
I've worked with thousands ofmanagers and leaders over the
years.
I pick up certain ideas andthings, I experiment with it
(35:16):
myself.
I basically try to, let's say,walk the talk myself a little
bit too.
I find it not so easy to reallymake it very explicit in terms
of how things have been changing, but I would probably say that
it's also a bit of kind ofmaturity that is happening over
time.
You experiment, you try outthings and there's always new
(35:40):
things to learn and to improveon.
So, yeah, for me I alwaysconsider to be at the beginning
of the learning journey, becausethere's so much more to improve
on, to try out, and we areworking with people.
I mean, it's never easy.
It can be extremely rewardingand I also find it very
rewarding, but you know there'salways surprises, difficult
(36:03):
circumstances that you have todeal with, so for me, it's more
kind of you know.
Yeah, although things mightmature a little bit, there's
still so much more to learn andto improve on.
So, um, I think modesty is avery good one in terms of
looking towards our ownleadership style right, yeah,
that's great, great um insightthere.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Um, so, coming to the end, um and I'd ask you to
maybe not be modest for a fewseconds, but what are some of
the key insights that you, ortakeaways, you'd like our
audience to take away from thisconversation?
If there's one or two thingsyou'd like people to walk away
with now remembering what arethose things that you would like
them to take away, well.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
I think put the voice of the employee first for me is
a key element.
It is.
It asks for a bit of avulnerable position, but it is
so rewarding if people withinthe organizations generally have
the feeling like our management, our, our managers, our
leadership is truly listening tous and taking, yeah, our
(37:12):
experience into account.
I think it is the startingpoint.
I also see see it as a journey,also as an organization.
It's not about we have thatstamp and now we're good.
No, it is also continuousimprovement.
I think that's the second one.
And the third one is don'texpect HR to compensate for bad
leadership, because, at the endof the day, that's where it
(37:34):
boils down to, and I thinkthat's a key element that we
should never forget.
How sophisticated we get istypically not the best indicator
in terms of how well we aredoing, but it's getting the
fundamentals right and notforgetting about them.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, so I think from the point of view of the
listener, you've talked aboutevidence-based approach.
You've talked aboutevidence-based approach, and so
I'm going to assume that that'spretty well evidence, research,
that that's what you've seenover the years around putting
employees first, etc.
What's next for you, koen, anda great place to work in Belgium
(38:09):
.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yeah, well, you know, there's the supporting side
towards companies, but there'salso the celebration side, right
, and so we have one huge event.
That's our only big event wehave every year.
That's where we are celebratingthe best workplaces, and so
March 11, again, we will gatherin Brussels and there we will
(38:31):
reveal those companies that arenot doing only good, but are
doing great, those that aredoing exceptional in terms of
creating high engagements and agreat place to work.
So that's something I'm lookingforward to to put our customers
in the spotlight, because Ithink they truly deserve it,
(38:52):
right.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And we're recording this in 2025 because I know that
people listen to these podcastslater, but this is an annual
event yeah, okay, it's not likejust one off this year and, if
you've missed it and you'relistening to this at some other
point of the year, look forwardto next year's event and the
year after and the year afterthat.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yeah it's a yearly celebration of great places to
work, always lots of fun,inspiration, great opportunity
to network with some othercompanies and hr professionals.
So I would say more thanwelcome, whatever year we're in
yeah, and who could go to that?
Speaker 1 (39:25):
anybody can go to three year link in your website.
Yeah and yes exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
It's an open event, so if you go to great place to
work belgium there you will findthat yesterday we've opened the
the invitation.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So anyone who's willing to join is more than
welcome, right so, finally, howdo people get in touch with you,
coon, and uh, you know what'sthe platform that they can reach
out and mention.
They heard this podcast andthey'd like to link with you
very easy, great place to work,belgium.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
We have a website and there's contact details.
There is a whole team that iswilling to answer any questions
anyone might have, or if therewould be an opportunity to
support you in strengthening thecultures of anyone who's
listening.
We, we are more than willing todo so and I think the website
(40:19):
is the best place to go.
Of course, we're also on theother platforms, but that's the
easy entrance, I would say.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And LinkedIn.
You're accessible, of course,of course, yeah.
So as ever, koen, thanks amillion for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withour listeners today.
Well, jerry, thanks a millionfor sharing your insights, tips
and wisdom with our listenerstoday.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well, jerry, thanks a lot for your time, for your
interest, and I hope that wewill ignite some eagerness on
your listeners side to go evenfurther and having more courage
in strengthening all thoseplaces to work.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
Imagine you're having a meeting and you're getting
really frustrated because you'rein a meeting with someone that
you just it was a bit of aconflict, and you go out of that
meeting and it can be online orit can be in person, and then
you go straight into the nextmeeting and if you don't
understand what that firstfrustration has brought into how
you're feeling, you're going towalk right into the next
meeting.
And if you don't understandwhat that first frustration has
brought into how you're feeling,you're going to walk right into
(41:20):
the next meeting with thatbristling, with that frustration
, and you may not think thatanyone else is picking that up,
but there's going to be a rippleeffect to the next meeting.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You're going to contaminate the next meeting.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's a good way ofdescribing it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Next time on Leading People.
We're joined by leadershipexperts and bestselling authors
Mandy Flint and ElizabethVinberg Hearn to explore what it
really takes to be asupercharged leader In a world
(41:56):
that's constantly evolving.
Leaders must learn to leadthemselves first before they can
bring out the best in others.
Mandy and Elizabeth reveal whyself-leadership is the
foundation of great leadership,how to manage your energy and
state of mind, and what smallchanges can have the biggest
impact on your leadershipeffectiveness.
You won't want to miss thisinsightful conversation.
(42:17):
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast.
Until next time.
Welcome to Leading People with me Gerry Marais.
This is the podcast for leadersand HR decision makers who want
to bring out the best inthemselves and others.
Every other week, I sit downwith leading authors,
researchers and practitionersfor deep dive conversations
(00:22):
about the strategies, insightsand tools that drive personal
and organizational success.
And in between, I bring you onesimple thing short episodes
that deliver practical insightsand tips for immediate use,
whether you're here for usefultools or thought
thought-provoking ideas.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
What makes a workplace truly great?
How would you rate where youwork and if you're a leader,
what could you do to make it aneven better place to work?
(01:09):
Koon de Wetink, CEO of GreatPlace to Work Belgium and a
professor at Vleric BusinessSchool, joins Leading People to
reveal the key ingredients ofhigh-trust leadership and
thriving organizational cultures.
In this episode, Kuhn shareswhy the employee voice is the
most critical factor inworkplace success, the
leadership behaviours thatcreate a high-trust,
(01:29):
high-performance culture, andhow evidence-based culture
management can helporganisations attract and retain
top talent.
Are you ready to discover thestrategies that turn good
workplaces into truly greatplaces to work?
Let's hear what Koen has to say.
(01:52):
Koen de Wetink, welcome toLeading People.
Thank you thank you, Koen.
You're the CEO of Great Placeto Work in Belgium and you're
also a professor at VlericBusiness School, so one of the
top business schools in Europe.
But first, before we get intoGreat Place to Work and your
(02:15):
work as a professor, so mylisteners can get to know you
better, how did you get here andtoday?
Were there people or places orevents or epiphany moments that
stood out on your journey towhere you are today, and why did
you choose a career in academia?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Very interesting question, jerry.
I basically started offstudying psychology probably to
try to save myself, I guess, asmany of us do.
I went into psychology, thenmoved into work and
organizational psychology.
Afterwards I basically alreadythat's 25 years ago I joined the
(02:55):
business school very businessschool.
Then I went for a PhD lookinginto how can we motivate people
and what are the best ways to dothat, came back, went to the US
, came back to Belgium and sincethen I would say my passion has
been about how can we createenvironments, working
environments where people reallyfeel engaged and passionate and
(03:17):
where they're also contributingto a great level, and so I've
been looking into many driversof that.
Part of it is the impact of theleader, part of it is the
impact of the team, but also theHR angle, looking into how
organizations can set up systems, processes and tools and
solutions that boost engagementand performance.
(03:41):
That has been my area for manyyears.
Part of it research, but alsolots of teaching towards HR
audiences, but also a lot ofpeople management courses across
the globe.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Right, okay, so it was at Case Western or somewhere
you studied in the US.
Yeah, okay, it's quite awell-known school, exactly
Western, or somewhere youstudied in the US.
Yeah, okay, it's quite awell-known school.
Exactly.
So if we looked in at GreatPlace to Work and we look at the
(04:16):
core mission of Great Place toWork and perhaps just reflecting
what you've said, maybe you canalso talk about what inspired
you personally to lead the GreatPlace to Work in Belgium.
So what is the core mission andwhat inspired you to get
involved in that?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Great question, gerry .
Indeed, because for many yearsI've been involved in helping
organizations, and especiallyleaders, in becoming better in
terms of how to deal with people.
I would probably call that alittle bit the kind of push
strategy.
With people, I would probablycall that a little bit the kind
of push strategy, and I thinkGreat Place to Work for me is
another way to try to achieveand accomplish the same things,
(04:51):
which is helping companies tobecome better and greater, and
so Great Place to Work is a verynice complement to it, because
it's a vehicle that helps us tosupport companies in basically
getting an idea, grasping,measuring their culture,
improving their culture and alsocreating community of
(05:13):
organizations that can inspireeach other.
So for me it is quitecomplementary.
The ultimate goal is the sameone, but the way to get there is
completely different.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And just for our listeners and even for myself,
how long has Great Place to Workitself as a concept?
Because, belgium, I take it,you're running a kind of a
franchise.
Is that right, yeah?
So where did it originate fromand how long has it been around?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, so Great place to work is basically american.
It's indeed a licensee model.
I think we are currentlyoperating in about 180 countries
, so it is really a globalorganization.
It started about 40 years agoand, of course, it has gradually
grown.
In belgium, it's already herefor more than 20 years, and
(06:06):
actually that's also where thelink is between my academic
career and great place to work,because it's actually Vleric
Business School in Belgium thatholds the licensee for this
region, and so that's how thesethings came together.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So let's get into what it means to be a great
place to work, because, youmentioned earlier, you're
looking at the impact of leaders, you're looking at the impact
of the teams they lead and theHR function, and I have
listeners out there who fit intoall those categories, because I
know many of them.
They write to me and stuff likethat.
So just to inform those outthere who may not be so aware of
(06:48):
this, from your perspective,what are the key elements that
make an organization a greatplace to work?
And maybe then we can also youcan dovetail that into sort of
what's the approach of greatplace to work?
What are sort of the criteriayou're using to evaluate
organizations?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Okay, If I may, I would split it up in two parts
Maybe.
First of all, try to explain alittle bit what are we doing
with Great Place to Work, whatis the kind of activities, what
is the support that we areoffering towards companies to
become better, and then thesecond part I would say is then
looking into what is thecriteria that we are losing, uh,
(07:28):
using sorry, not losing, usingin terms of defining what a
great place to work is.
So first, what we do isbasically we measure the
strength of the culture in anorganization, yeah, and so we
measure it, and we also certifyorganizations that are doing a
(07:49):
great job, and companies can usethat certification in terms of
strengthening their employerbrand.
That is one aspect of whatwe're doing, but I think an
equally or probably even moreimportant part is beyond the
branding, is basically offeringa platform to organizations to
(08:10):
measure and improve theirculture.
So what we are actually doingfrom Great Place to Work and we
do that through a globalplatform, one unique platform we
are surveying employees abouttheir experience in their
company, and if a sufficientamount of people are
(08:30):
sufficiently positive abouttheir experience, we would
certify that organization as agreat place to work.
So this is, I think, a veryimportant aspect, because you
could say we are offering acertification, but the
certification is based on theemployee voice.
Yeah, so we are doing partlyauditing of what, what hr
(08:53):
processes and tools companieshave in place, but the main part
of the certification isbasically how people really feel
on a daily basis, theatmosphere within the company.
I think that's a very importantaspect.
The second element is themeasuring and the managing part.
(09:14):
So it's not we are basicallyoffering we have a global
platform, we have access to thatplatform, but we can also give
access to that platform to ourcustomers.
So basically, we are offeringthem an opportunity to measure
their culture, but also to dodeep dive analysis and to go
further, even to do some pulsesurveys and so on.
(09:35):
So it's basically, let's say,an opportunity to manage culture
in a more evidence-based way.
Yeah, and that's sometimes alittle bit forgotten about what
great place, what great place towork, has to offer, but it's
becoming a more and moreimportant element.
And so, next to thecertification because some
(09:56):
companies would say we want tostrengthen our employer brand,
please certify us so that we canshow it to the outside world
more important is companies thatgo on a journey together with
us and we do kind of zeromeasurement and we also organize
workshops together withstakeholders involved, which
basically helps the organizationto, yeah, use bottom-up
(10:20):
feedback towards furtherimprovement.
Okay, and that, I think, iswhat we are basically doing in
terms of the services and thesupport we give to companies.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
On Leading People.
The goal is to bring youcutting-edge thought leadership
from many of the leadingthinkers and practitioners in
leadership today.
Each guest shares theirinsights, wisdom and practical
advice so we can all get betterat bringing out the best in
ourselves and others.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and share a
(10:59):
link with friends, family andcolleagues and stay informed by
joining our leading peoplelinkedin community of hr leaders
and talent professionals thequestion is and that brings us
to the second part how do youdefine a strong culture?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
how do you define a great place to work?
And the good thing there isthat it's really a very rigid
methodology.
It has been developed overthose 40 years and it's a kind
of normative model, you couldsay, where we believe that
there's a few important elementsthat define a great place to
work, and one of them is thehigh trust leadership.
(11:41):
You already mentioned theimportance of leadership.
I can go a little bit deeperinto what it really means, but
one part is high trustleadership, which is how do
employees appreciate theconnection between them and
their leadership and managementin the organization?
The second part is how dopeople relate to their job, the
(12:04):
meaningfulness in the job.
And the third element is how dothey relate to the people
surrounding them, how do theyrelate to the team, and that
part is called camaraderie.
Okay, and so camaraderie is howdo people relate to their
colleagues?
Pride is how people relate totheir job, and then, indeed, we
(12:25):
have that trust element in termsof leadership and maybe to fine
tune that a little bit more,there is three characteristics.
One is the credibility.
To what extent do people tellus we have the feeling that our
top management knows whatthey're doing, that they are
sufficiently communicating aboutit and that they also act in an
(12:47):
integral way.
To what extent are theybasically walking the talk?
That is the credibility aspect.
The other aspect of leadership,trust, is respect.
To what extent do people havethe feeling that they get
sufficient support in terms oftraining, equipment,
appreciation, but also to whatextent do they feel that
(13:11):
management really cares aboutthem?
And that's the respect element.
And then the third element thatlinks to high trust, leadership
, is fairness.
To what extent do people tellus that anyone within the
organization is, let's say, yeah, has the same chances, is dealt
with in a similar way, whetherthere's justice in the company,
(13:34):
whether there's equity, whetherthe benefits are shared in a
proper way, and so on and so on?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
no-transcript okay, and a question that kind of
comes into my head because we'renot going to name any companies
or anything during this,because it's uh, you want to
keep the fairness aspect, Iguess and at the same time, what
sort of feedback have you gotfrom companies who go through
the process?
Maybe they start off and theyhave a certain they're at a
(14:15):
certain place or they've got acertain perspective on this.
Maybe they think it's hard workor whatever.
What sort of feedback do youget, particularly for the ones
that go on the journey?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, well, maybe, coming back to the fact that I
don't want to mention any names,because the appreciation to all
of our customers is so high,because what I feel is, the
companies that we have theopportunity to work with are
genuinely and I think that'sthat's a critical element they
genuinely take care of theirpeople.
(14:45):
They truly believe that bytaking care of their people, by
by creating a nice workingenvironment, that that really
makes the difference, and so,and and they also take a
vulnerable position because theyare willing to truly listen to
their people in an unfilteredway, yeah, and so it takes guts
(15:08):
for a company also to, to, yeah,be open towards the feedback
that people are giving.
So that's why I I I appreciateall of the, the companies that
that are working with us, and Idon't want to differentiate too
much between those that aremaybe a little bit higher or a
little bit better or a bit moreof experience, but but I think
(15:29):
that's a key element they, theytruly believe that listening to
their people in a systematic wayand using that feedback in
terms of continuous improvementreally makes a difference, and I
think that's what they all havein common.
Industries differ, right, butwe see that if you go back to
(15:53):
those five dimensions, that backto those five dimensions, that
ultimately it makes a hugedifference for a company and it
is very, I would say, powerfullevers to work on strengthening
your culture.
And so what we typically dobecause most of our the
companies we are working withthey we embark on a journey
(16:14):
together.
It's not a one-shot kind ofmeasuring and then you show to
the outside world that you gotcertified.
No, basically, the kind ofstandard procedure is that we
work together for three years,we do a measurement, we give the
feedback to the differentlayers in the organizations.
We can also facilitate thebottom-up exercises, trying to
(16:36):
go into solutions in terms ofand the opportunities for
improvement that were identified.
And so it is actually a journey.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
It is, let's say, a way to to keep a finger on the
pulse in terms of what is theatmosphere within the
organization and I guess thatalso helps avoid this idea of
lip service, or what would youcall it today, people washing or
whatever you want to call theterm today which makes it look
(17:05):
like we're trying to be a goodplace to work as a one off
exercise.
Exactly, deep down, if theydon't do the journey aspect,
because things will, challengeswill come along, et cetera, and
you know, organizations willhave to adapt and if the
measures are robust enough, theadaptation should also maintain
the status of a great place towork, right.
(17:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's also the good thing, because it's a
global platform.
We can also provide a lot ofopportunities for benchmarking,
where companies can compare withothers into more specific
elements.
But also you have thehistorical, the historical
perspective, and people cancompare with how they they, how
they did last year or some yearsbefore.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So it creates all kinds of opportunities to really
take a deep dive into, let'ssay, the culture and how it is
evolving within, within theorganization you've been looking
at my questions, because mynext question is how has the
concept of a great place to workchanged over time, particularly
with the rise of things likeremote working and hybrid models
?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, what you actually see, and that's another
element that I maybe need tofind.
The model has not changed a lot, so I think it has been
validated over and over againand there's more and more
research also linking how ourcompany is doing in terms of the
(18:28):
great place to work,assessments, and what is the
impact in terms of beingattractive towards candidates.
Maybe even more important,being attractive towards
candidates, maybe even moreimportant, being attractive to
the right candidates, becausewhat we actually see is that the
cost per candidate decreases byhaving the label right.
But we also look into morebottom line how well our company
(18:53):
is doing and there's more andmore evidence that indeed, it
seems to help to be certifiedand to work on your culture, to
be also more successful as anorganization.
So, as such, the coredimensions of the model, they
did not change that much, but wealso provide an opportunity for
the companies we're workingwith to, yeah, also assess other
(19:16):
elements beyond our model.
So actually, again, I'mreferring to the platform we
have all sets of standardquestions, but you can also
customize questions and itemslinked to all kinds of topics,
yeah, and I can imagine if youare going hybrid and you want to
find out a little bit moreabout how is your company or
(19:39):
your people, how are theyexperiencing this, then we can
also insert this in the survey.
It will not be taken intoaccount for the certification,
but, of course, the data becomesavailable to the company and
they can start working on it.
So, as such, the core model didnot change over time.
As such, the core model did notchange over time.
(20:00):
It has been fine-tuned and ithas been further and further
validated to make sure that theitems are the right and the most
valid items to be asked.
But, of course, we also createflexibility for companies to tap
into the topics which are morerelevant to them, specifically
by giving them the opportunityto customize the survey,
specifically by giving them theopportunity to customize the
survey, and they can even sendout surveys themselves if they
(20:21):
want to, and that's also anopportunity.
So, basically, you could saythat we are offering a tool to
do culture management in anevidence-based way.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, I'm going to ask you a little bit about one
of the things you just said.
In terms of evidence, you saidthe cost per candidate decreases
.
What drives that?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Well, what you actually see is that and of
course, there's lots of researchthat tries to tap into this one
this is maybe a bit more basedon my experience working
together with our clients, maybea bit more based on my
experience working together withour clients what we typically
see is that there's notnecessarily a huge increase of
candidates, but, one way or theother, better candidates, and
(21:07):
that's why I would say it'sprobably not that all of a
sudden you have much morecandidates, employees knocking
on your door, but one way or theother, um yeah, it's the better
ones that you're getting in.
So what you actually see isbetter people knocking on your
door, but, of course, the costof the acquisition is also
(21:29):
reduced yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
so, um, I I have to ask you this question because
I'm sure my listeners out thereare wondering about this how
does Great Place to Work comparewith some of the other models
out there, like Top Employers,nps, gallup, because now that
I've heard you talk about it,are there some overlaps or do
you do something different?
(21:54):
Are you kind of competing witheach other for these you know
for, for business with thesecompanies, or what?
What have you noticed?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
that I think it's a well.
There's a few elements.
First of all, if you look intoone aspect of what we are
offering, which is acertification which links to
employer branding, there I thinkthe big difference is that we
are basically using the employeevoice and many of the the other
(22:23):
labels, let's say are not doingthat.
What most of them are doing isthey talk to hr and they're
asking hr about what are youdoing and based on that kind of
assessment, which can be veryuseful, but based on that
assessment, you would getcertified or not.
What we do is whateverpractices you have and we also
(22:45):
have smaller companies maybethat are, you know, are less
sophisticated in terms of HRapproach but what we are looking
in is to the experience of theteam members, the employees
within the organization.
So I think, in terms ofcredibility at least that would
be our claim we'd rather, uh,believe the employee rather than
(23:10):
the one setting of the systems.
But on the other hand, ofcourse you can imagine, the
value towards hr is much biggerbecause you get feedback, which
many of the other models, yeah,you just map what you're doing
without seeing what the impactis on the people in your company
.
So I think that's an importantdistinction using the employee
(23:32):
voice towards certification andrecognition.
Employee voice towardscertification and recognition.
I sometimes would say we're notonly, let's say, improving and
making your facade moreattractive as a company, but
we're also helping you to manageyour backdoor.
It's not only telling howattractive you are, but it's
also helping you to become moreattractive on a daily basis as a
(23:55):
company, as an employer.
So that's one aspect.
The other aspect, indeed, yeah,we are offering this
opportunity to do surveys, toask questions to people, to
analyze those in depth and alsoto help you to improve.
I think what is specific aboutwhat we are offering is a kind
(24:17):
of yeah, it's software as aservice, it's a package that
basically empowers you yeah, todo it yourself.
Yeah, so we believe that ourcontribution is not necessarily
doing the analysis and helpingyou to do the analysis.
Of course, that's part of it,but we basically think that we
(24:37):
can help you in strengtheningyour culture and also it's your
job to be done.
So I think it's also a littlebit of a different perspective.
The data that we are gathering,that we are collecting is is
fully accessible to thecompanies themselves and they
can do analysis, they can dowhatever they want to do, a
(24:58):
highly sophisticated platformthat has been developed on a
global scale.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, so that kind of then dovetails a little bit
into a question around and thisrelates a bit to the quality of
the candidate as well around theemployee experience, and the
question really is what are someof the big trends or shifts
that you're noticing inworkplace culture and employee
expectations, and what are someof the trends in terms of what
(25:27):
organizations and companies aredoing to become even better
workplaces?
In response to, because we have, you know, with the younger
generation, there's always thistalk about generational aspects
and, whether it's true or not,that's always debatable.
Interesting, yeah, becausethere's a lot of the juries out
on that.
For those of us who are gettinga bit older, sometimes we can
(25:50):
also look at TikTok videos andInstagrams and all sorts of
things, exactly.
So this kind of thing comes upevery so often, but it's it's
not even the generational thing,it's just what are the trends
out there around employeeexpectations in terms of the
experience of going to work.
Because you mentioned meaning,one of the criterias, apart from
(26:10):
high trust leadership, is thatthere's meaningfulness in the
job and they can relate to theother people.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So let's talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry
Murray.
My guest this week is Koen deWetink, ceo of Great Places to
Work, belgium.
Coming up next, koen shares whythe best workplaces don't just
measure culture, they manage it.
No-transcript.
(26:52):
So stay tuned for thesegame-changing insights.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, no, I think that's true.
If you take a bit more of aholistic perspective, I think
the meaningfulness is becoming amore and more important one.
I mean, we're spending a lot oftime on the job and people
start thinking about you knowwhat is behind this, what is the
kind of contribution that I'mmaking in my job, together with
(27:18):
my colleagues as part of theorganization.
I think that's a dimensionwhere we although it's already a
long time in our model, butthis has, let's say, become more
and more important, so theexpectations are also much
higher.
Being purpose-driven is nice,but it needs to be credible, and
if it is credible, I think it'sbasically a true source of, of
(27:41):
engagement of people, and it'salso a source to attract and to
retain people.
So for sure that this one hasincreased in terms of importance
.
I think another element that wesee consistently popping up is,
um, yeah, it's about how can yougrow yourself as an individual
(28:02):
within that organization, andagain, this is becoming more and
more an important element thatbasically has a fundamental
impact on people's engagement.
We see that companies are moreand more offering career
guidance and, yes, there's anindividual responsibility and we
all have to shape our owncareers.
(28:24):
But what we see in those greatplaces to work is that they
really put a lot of effort atdifferent levels in terms of
setting up processes, but, Ithink, even more in making sure
that the direct leaders, thesupervisors, the managers, that
they also take up an active role, an interest and an active role
in shaping the careers of theirpeople, and this is becoming
(28:46):
really a key element, not onlyto retain people but also to
attract them, I would say.
And maybe a third element thatwe see more and more popping up
is, yeah, the individual, theindividualized care.
Yes, there needs to be fairness, there needs to be consistency
in terms of how we are, let'ssay, dealing with people in our
(29:10):
company, but at the same time,we need to deal with them as
individuals, and that sometimesalso asks for more personalized
care, coaching, career coaching,but also other kinds of
coaching, and indeed we see thatthis is really something that
has been growing a lot the lastyears if we look into our great
(29:31):
places to work.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, I've been watching a lot of the uh reports
and analysis and and even withclients I work with um.
You know, like 30, 40 years agoit was all about could you make
it up the ladder today?
I mean, it was kind oflogically flawed because most
organizations like pyramids sothat there's few, fewer and
fewer ladders to go up, and so alot of people got stuck in kind
(29:55):
of well, I just go to work andor I get paid at the end of the
month and younger people realizethey're.
The climbing the ladder is notwhat many of people don't want.
That today because it comeswith a lot of.
There's a lot, an awful lot ofunhappy managers and leaders out
there.
We have to recognize we talkabout engagement and managers
need to engage.
Sometimes managers don't feelengaged themselves, so we can't
(30:17):
beat them all the time, but alot of people are going.
I don't really want to.
I just want to go in and dogreat work and have great
colleagues produce stuff that Ifeel proud of and that.
So we're seeing and hearing alot of that out there and the
question I have for you now ishow do you foresee the role of
leadership evolving in creatinggreat places to work and meeting
(30:39):
these expectations over thenext years.
What advice would you giveleaders who want to build better
workplace cultures?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah no.
I think there's maybe twoelements that I would like to
emphasize here.
The first one is put the peoplefirst.
In all the kind of processesthat we have you talked about
growth perspective, careermanagement that's what I see
those companies doing thestarting point is what is your
ambitions as an individual teammember, as an individual
(31:09):
contributor?
And then the next question ishow can we find opportunities
within the organization?
Is, how can we findopportunities within the
organization, being it jobs,being it projects, being it
whatever that will fit with yourambitions?
And I think it's starting fromthe individual and then trying
(31:30):
to see how can we create acontext that is best fit, which
has been completely different inthe past, where we had the
context and the question was howcan we fit people into it?
So I think that would be myfirst thing People first in
everything that we're doing interms of the experience that we
are providing to our people.
The next thing, and it's a verybasic one, and that's also, if
(31:52):
you look into best workplaces,certified companies, because
best workplaces, that'scompanies that are not only
certified but that also go forcompetition to say we are the
best.
So if you then look into howare companies that are not
certified, the certified and thebest workplaces.
Where are the biggestdifferences?
(32:14):
Well, it is a very basic,fundamental thing.
It goes back to thatcredibility that we've touched
on before.
Walking the talk extremelydifficult, yeah, walking the
talk.
Transparency, clearcommunication, listening to
people and using their input toreally change, also as an
(32:34):
organization.
I think this is really keyelement.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It has been there for a long time, but I think it's
becoming more and more importantyeah, and it was just struck me
as you were talking about theindividual, understanding the
individual and what they want toto get out of work.
It really does require acoaching style of listening.
And you know, rather thansaying, coon, I think you'd be
(32:59):
good at this, and poor coonsaying I better agree with my
boss because, whatever now it'ssaying, what we see is this uh,
how do you feel about whatyou're doing?
Where do you see yourselfevolving?
What you're able to do, whatare the things that really light
, light you up and float yourboat every every week?
What are the things that dragyou down in terms of energy?
(33:20):
And these are the kinds ofquestions but a leader has to be
open to listen to what theyhear.
Now they can't, they can'trespond probably positively to
everything, but they certainlycan show a willingness to
explore it right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, and at the end of the day, because if I take a
bit more my academic angle nowagain, and if I look into
performance systems and so on,and if you then look into what
is now basically driving theirimpact, well, often it comes
back to what was the quality ofthe conversation?
What was the quality of theconversation, what was the
(33:56):
quality of the connection whenpeople are sitting together and
are discussing about what are wedoing, what do we plan to do
and how can we do it even betterin the future.
It comes back to basic elements, but it is still a very
difficult thing to implement, torealize and to make reality on
a daily basis and how, just aswe get closer to the end of the
(34:21):
conversation.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
You know you worked in this area for quite some time
and you do have some peoplearound you that help you, and
that.
How is your own approach toleadership evolved by being
involved in this?
That's?
Speaker 3 (34:34):
an interesting one For me.
It's, of course, a greatopportunity to be on both sides
of the same thing, right?
Because you're doing research,you try to figure out what is
engaging people, what is thebest context like?
(34:54):
But you also know thatsometimes there's a gap between
theory and practice.
But of course these thingsshould be aligned with each
other and that's how I try tolook into it.
You know there are certainideas.
I've worked with thousands ofmanagers and leaders over the
years.
I pick up certain ideas andthings, I experiment with it
(35:16):
myself.
I basically try to, let's say,walk the talk myself a little
bit too.
I find it not so easy to reallymake it very explicit in terms
of how things have been changing, but I would probably say that
it's also a bit of kind ofmaturity that is happening over
time.
You experiment, you try outthings and there's always new
(35:40):
things to learn and to improveon.
So, yeah, for me I alwaysconsider to be at the beginning
of the learning journey, becausethere's so much more to improve
on, to try out, and we areworking with people.
I mean, it's never easy.
It can be extremely rewardingand I also find it very
rewarding, but you know there'salways surprises, difficult
(36:03):
circumstances that you have todeal with, so for me, it's more
kind of you know.
Yeah, although things mightmature a little bit, there's
still so much more to learn andto improve on.
So, um, I think modesty is avery good one in terms of
looking towards our ownleadership style right, yeah,
that's great, great um insightthere.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Um, so, coming to the end, um and I'd ask you to
maybe not be modest for a fewseconds, but what are some of
the key insights that you, ortakeaways, you'd like our
audience to take away from thisconversation?
If there's one or two thingsyou'd like people to walk away
with now remembering what arethose things that you would like
them to take away, well.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
I think put the voice of the employee first for me is
a key element.
It is.
It asks for a bit of avulnerable position, but it is
so rewarding if people withinthe organizations generally have
the feeling like our management, our, our managers, our
leadership is truly listening tous and taking, yeah, our
(37:12):
experience into account.
I think it is the startingpoint.
I also see see it as a journey,also as an organization.
It's not about we have thatstamp and now we're good.
No, it is also continuousimprovement.
I think that's the second one.
And the third one is don'texpect HR to compensate for bad
leadership, because, at the endof the day, that's where it
(37:34):
boils down to, and I thinkthat's a key element that we
should never forget.
How sophisticated we get istypically not the best indicator
in terms of how well we aredoing, but it's getting the
fundamentals right and notforgetting about them.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, so I think from the point of view of the
listener, you've talked aboutevidence-based approach.
You've talked aboutevidence-based approach, and so
I'm going to assume that that'spretty well evidence, research,
that that's what you've seenover the years around putting
employees first, etc.
What's next for you, koen, anda great place to work in Belgium
(38:09):
.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yeah, well, you know, there's the supporting side
towards companies, but there'salso the celebration side, right
, and so we have one huge event.
That's our only big event wehave every year.
That's where we are celebratingthe best workplaces, and so
March 11, again, we will gatherin Brussels and there we will
(38:31):
reveal those companies that arenot doing only good, but are
doing great, those that aredoing exceptional in terms of
creating high engagements and agreat place to work.
So that's something I'm lookingforward to to put our customers
in the spotlight, because Ithink they truly deserve it,
(38:52):
right.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
And we're recording this in 2025 because I know that
people listen to these podcastslater, but this is an annual
event yeah, okay, it's not likejust one off this year and, if
you've missed it and you'relistening to this at some other
point of the year, look forwardto next year's event and the
year after and the year afterthat.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yeah it's a yearly celebration of great places to
work, always lots of fun,inspiration, great opportunity
to network with some othercompanies and hr professionals.
So I would say more thanwelcome, whatever year we're in
yeah, and who could go to that?
Speaker 1 (39:25):
anybody can go to three year link in your website.
Yeah and yes exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
It's an open event, so if you go to great place to
work belgium there you will findthat yesterday we've opened the
the invitation.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So anyone who's willing to join is more than
welcome, right so, finally, howdo people get in touch with you,
coon, and uh, you know what'sthe platform that they can reach
out and mention.
They heard this podcast andthey'd like to link with you
very easy, great place to work,belgium.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
We have a website and there's contact details.
There is a whole team that iswilling to answer any questions
anyone might have, or if therewould be an opportunity to
support you in strengthening thecultures of anyone who's
listening.
We, we are more than willing todo so and I think the website
(40:19):
is the best place to go.
Of course, we're also on theother platforms, but that's the
easy entrance, I would say.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And LinkedIn.
You're accessible, of course,of course, yeah.
So as ever, koen, thanks amillion for sharing your
insights, tips and wisdom withour listeners today.
Well, jerry, thanks a millionfor sharing your insights, tips
and wisdom with our listenerstoday.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well, jerry, thanks a lot for your time, for your
interest, and I hope that wewill ignite some eagerness on
your listeners side to go evenfurther and having more courage
in strengthening all thoseplaces to work.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
Imagine you're having a meeting and you're getting
really frustrated because you'rein a meeting with someone that
you just it was a bit of aconflict, and you go out of that
meeting and it can be online orit can be in person, and then
you go straight into the nextmeeting and if you don't
understand what that firstfrustration has brought into how
you're feeling, you're going towalk right into the next
meeting.
And if you don't understandwhat that first frustration has
brought into how you're feeling,you're going to walk right into
(41:20):
the next meeting with thatbristling, with that frustration
, and you may not think thatanyone else is picking that up,
but there's going to be a rippleeffect to the next meeting.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You're going to contaminate the next meeting.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's a good way ofdescribing it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Next time on Leading People.
We're joined by leadershipexperts and bestselling authors
Mandy Flint and ElizabethVinberg Hearn to explore what it
really takes to be asupercharged leader In a world
(41:56):
that's constantly evolving.
Leaders must learn to leadthemselves first before they can
bring out the best in others.
Mandy and Elizabeth reveal whyself-leadership is the
foundation of great leadership,how to manage your energy and
state of mind, and what smallchanges can have the biggest
impact on your leadershipeffectiveness.
You won't want to miss thisinsightful conversation.
(42:17):
And remember, before our nextfull episode, there's another
One Simple Thing episode waitingfor you A quick and actionable
tip to help you lead and livebetter.
Keep an eye out for it whereveryou listen to this podcast.
Until next time.
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