June 14, 2023 • 31 mins
Do you ever feel like sales has lost its human touch? Don't miss our enlightening conversation with internationally renowned podcast host, business coach, and author Patrick Kagan, who sheds light on this issue. We discuss his insights on how sales has become robotic and the importance of finding and maintaining our unique selling propositions to differentiate ourselves from the competition. Patrick also shares valuable information about the training offered by the National Association of Sales Professionals and why differentiation is both the number one most important skill and the most neglected in professional development.
Together, we explore the power of practicing consistency, commitment, and patience to make differentiation a standard in our sales approach. We dive into the world of proper intent and how it can help us make the right decisions, and how using hate and fear as motivators can fuel our growth. Additionally, we discuss the importance of introspection and Peter Drucker's quote, "What you measure, you can improve." This episode is filled with actionable advice and valuable insights on becoming a standout sales professional through the art of differentiation, so tune in and discover the secret sauce to separate yourself from the competition!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Patrick Kagan (00:00):
Hate your current situation so much, hate your
pain right now so much on theinside that you do something
positive about it on the outside.
Voice Over (00:10):
Everything leads to growth with the National
Association for SalesProfessionals.
The Leads to Growth podcastwith the National Association
for Sales Professionals providesin-depth discussions, sharing
the best sales prospecting,influence and communication
skills, as well as salestraining techniques to take your
professional sales career tothe next level.
Chris McCoy (00:32):
Hello and welcome to another episode of You Guess
That Leads to Growth, y'all.
My name is Chris McCoy, yourhost with the National
Association of SalesProfessionals, and today you
know we've got an OG in the game.
We've got Patrick Kagan.
How you doing, patrick, i'mgood Chris.
How you doing, i'm doing verywell.
You know, when I say an OG, youknow we talk to a lot of people
(00:53):
that are in the marketing space, in this space, that space.
But Patrick is a bit in themarketing space now.
But this guy has led seniorsales and national sales for
companies such as Procter andGamble, hewlett Packard and many
others.
You know he now owns MarketingAgency PK Solutions Group and is
also internationally renownedpodcast host and business coach
(01:14):
and author of the new book,which is really why I wanted to
have him on the podcast today.
Sell the difference thealternate guide to increasing
sales, profits and customersatisfaction through the art of
differentiation, differentiation, different There's an extra, a
differentiation.
Patrick Kagan (01:30):
Differentiation.
Chris McCoy (01:31):
Differentiation.
There we go.
I'm a little slow this morning.
y'all It's OK.
Differentiation And this is.
You know that we talk aboutthis all the time on the show.
We become robots often time andsales, especially the SDR work.
You follow the scripts, youfollow, you know all these
things, your mass and out peoplemessages.
We lost the humanness of salesa lot in what we do, and that's
(01:56):
where our uniqueness is, that'swhere our unique selling
proposition is, that's where ouronly statement is, that's where
our differentiation is And thisis where people want to connect
with us.
And I love that you broughtthis to the table, Patrick.
What brought you to this?
writing this book here today,man?
Patrick Kagan (02:15):
Yeah, cool.
And when I hear oh gee, i justthink original guru.
So I'm really I'm really I'mthrilled.
So I mean, you know, it's alife's journey when anybody
writes a book.
For sure, whatever stage oflife they're at, whatever
they've had before, that hasprepared them for that.
And my world, like you hadmentioned, was a lot of Fortune
(02:36):
500 companies, always anentrepreneur deep down in my
heart.
And so when I left and decidedto have my own thing 15 years
ago, it wasn't that I was adisgruntled employee and you
know screw the man type of thing, as much as I just knew that I
liked doing my own thing andgrowing my own business and
(02:58):
responsiveness to clients, and Idid find that I could
differentiate much quickerworking on my own as opposed to
working through an organization.
There's many layers and thattype of thing.
So that's, you know, kind ofwhat led me to write in my book.
When I first started trying towrite a book it was about 1998,
1999.
(03:19):
And I was a road warrior.
I was traveling coast to coastas on and off a plane all the
time.
My motivation and road warriors, everything in the past now
That's a thing of the past, yeah, but my motivation was to get
off the road.
I wanted to stop living inhotels and that type of thing
And I would hit writer's blocktime and time again because my
motivation was really more of aself-serving type thing and
(03:44):
avoid the travel as opposed towhat is this about and who is it
for and what will it do forthem.
So flash forward to about a yearand a half or two years ago and
on my own podcast, one of myguests happens to be one of the
top published authors in theworld.
I didn't know this and I'm justhaving a great conversation
(04:04):
with this guy And we finish andwe talk offline and he says when
are you publishing your book?
I'm like I don't have a book.
He's like you have three booksfor sure.
You just need clarity in whichbook you're going to publish
first.
And he's like you have a way ofdifferentiating your points.
And that hit me.
(04:25):
I'm like that's kind of whathas helped me to succeed in
sales.
And so he mentored me andhelped me through getting
clarity of vision.
What is differentiation?
Why is it important?
And it was really telling to meAnd you mentioned something
about how we can kind of losesomething compared to the old
days, where we're back in thedays where it was face to face
(04:48):
time with clients.
And when the pandemic hits theworld, it suddenly runs zoom
calls and we get farther removed, and the farther removed the
more similar we become.
In sales.
Similarity is a death wish andyou need to differentiate.
So the importance now isgreater than ever before, and
it's the number one mostimportant skill and yet the
(05:09):
number one most neglected skill.
You don't find professionaldevelopment seminars devoted to
differentiation.
This book is a playbook on howto do that.
Chris McCoy (05:18):
I really love that And it speaks a lot to there's
definitely differences, but itspeaks a lot to the training
that we offer at NASP And Ithink what happens is, even if
you do, let's say, you take thetime to find out what makes you
different and what makes youspecial, right, you still have
(05:39):
to maintain that internalmotivation, to trust that within
you and to go out there.
Because the challenge withsalespeople is they may roll
into sales feeling different andfeeling unique And really that
joy of a salesperson when theyfirst start a position,
especially back in the day whenit wasn't just sitting behind a
desk picking up a phone.
We actually work it to go outthere and talk to people.
You'd see this, what do we callit?
(06:03):
blind ignorance?
They would do amazing becausethey would say that way.
Once they got beaten down, oncethe outside started changing
how they feel on the inside,once they became externally
motivated as opposed to theinternal motivation, that's when
they started to get.
They started to look likeeveryone else and respond like
yeah.
Patrick Kagan (06:21):
And this book is all about finding the intrinsic
value for you as a salespersonAnd, more importantly, for the
customer.
See, the real important thingabout this book is it's your
sales secret weapon, because youlearn to sell the way a
customer is longing to buy.
They are tired of salespeopleall sounding the same And at
(06:41):
some point they carry aroundthis invisible mute button and
they put you on mute and youhave to ask yourself how often
am I presenting on mute?
Sometimes I win a sale.
I don't even know how ithappened.
Sometimes I don't get a sale.
I don't know how that happened.
And so the whole thing isreally looking at how does a
person choose to buy, how dothey want to buy, and do we
(07:04):
spend time with the rightclients or do we just spend time
with all others?
And that's the two categories Iput them in.
Chris McCoy (07:12):
So let's get down to some action steps.
All right, so I'm a salespersonout there.
and what are the foundations ofdifferentiation?
Yeah, so I'm a salesperson outthere.
or also, your book talks aboutthe four disciplines.
Yeah, where can we start toreally understand what this is
and how we can break it downwithin what we are?
Patrick Kagan (07:30):
Yeah, there's two things.
So the first is reallyunderstanding where
differentiation comes from, anda lot of times we hear people
use words that have becomebuzzwords.
I hear people all the timesaying I'm authentically curious
or I'm curious Well, it'sbecome a buzzword and it's lost
its value.
So differentiation is anoutcome of two things a stimulus
(07:52):
and a response.
The stimulus is true empathy.
You're able to truly experience, or have experience or see
things from the other person'sside.
Empathy meaning I see, feel andknow what another group or
person or corporation is goingthrough.
I felt your pain.
Other customers of mine havefelt your pain.
(08:13):
Let me not jump on this with aone size fits all solution.
Let me dig into what's causingyour pain but, more importantly,
what's the cost of that pain toyou?
Is it time, is it energy?
Is it manpower?
So the stimulus is empathy.
The response, then, iscuriosity.
You ask questions that have todo with what if?
(08:37):
and your customer, if you havean ideal customer.
They respond to what if It'slike?
what if we do nothing?
What will happen to you?
What if we implement my changes?
What will happen to you?
What if we implement part ofthis?
What if we try to do this forless money.
What if, what if, what if isthe curiosity driver, and that's
(08:57):
what drives differentiation.
That's the first part.
Chris McCoy (09:01):
And just a comment on that.
He said something.
He said true empathy.
Don't fake the empathy, y'all.
That's even worse than notpretending to be empathetic.
There's nothing worse thansomebody going oh really, oh man
, well, tell me what wouldhappen if you don't buy for me
today?
How bad would that hurt you?
When you can tell it's just amanipulation, when it's
(09:25):
inauthentic?
you have to be authentic andyou have to truly care about
that person.
So ask it in the proper way.
So don't ask it.
Hey, what happens if you don'tbuy today?
Ask it why is this an urgentdecision for you all right now?
I mean really, what is thiscosting you on a daily So we can
really and be real, talk tothem like they're a real person.
Why am I seeing this?
so that we can both understandlogically the pain.
(09:46):
Because if there isn't costingyou anything, then you're not
going to have an urgency to buyAnd I'm not going to have an
urgency to sell you becausethere's not a really big
difference in doing the business.
So now we can both walk awaytogether evenly and happily.
But if there is a pain thereand if it is costing us, then
our awareness will be an insightfor us to make a good, smart,
educated decision.
Patrick Kagan (10:07):
Absolutely.
And you made some great points,because sincerity is really
what you do, not what you say,and so everything speaks.
So I could lie to your facewith a smile on my face, and you
could say, hey, he's atrustworthy guy and blah, blah,
blah.
But I lied to you.
But my actions will never lie.
Actions are truth.
That's why, when you're on mute, what you do speaks louder than
(10:31):
what you say.
And remember, customers areconditioned that all you
salespeople sound the same Andyou don't know your value.
So I will tell you your valueAnd ultimately, i have to do my
job.
I'm going to buy from somebody.
I want to eliminate that, andso what I do to differentiate is
I demonstrate differentiation.
The minute someone tells youyou know, i'm a kind person, i'm
(10:54):
curious.
Well, it makes you question ifyou are, why do you have to say
it?
Chris McCoy (10:58):
I literally just had this conversation with a
coworker the other day And Ilove him And the fact that we
got into it, was you know, andreally just decided to
understand each other was reallyeven more fun about it.
But the fact is he said, oh,i'm curious.
I said no, no, no.
Now I know that you're justtrying to manipulate me, because
if you're curious, you wouldhave asked a question a minute
ago, before this became a,before I became a little upset
(11:21):
and moved away from this thingNow, because you've realized
you've lost me.
Now you're coming back andtelling me you're curious, when
I obviously know that you're not, and so that was a good point
And you just illustrated.
Patrick Kagan (11:31):
you just illustrated a great point.
So in that scenario, if you'rethe client and that person is
the salesperson curiosity,empathy, differentiation, they
exist in your mind.
first you recognize it, thatnobody has to say it, and when
they say it they take away fromthemselves And you know right
now everybody's saying they'recurious and authentic and
(11:53):
playful and everything else.
And salespeople they learnthrough model behavior.
they may have learned the wrongmodel behavior and they go
repeat that.
So you have to take a step backand you have to say what is my
ideal customer?
look like, sound like, how dothey do business?
And then what is an ideal salesperson look like and sound like
and how do they do business?
(12:13):
And you have to marry the two upAnd I spend a lot of time
reminding people that they spendtime with the wrong people,
because those people spend moneywith their company.
And I'm not saying let go ofall your corporate objectives or
don't make your goals or don'tgo out and sell.
But if a salesperson is sellingand spending time with a wrong
(12:36):
client, that client will leaveyou.
But if you spend time with theright client, they'll never
leave you.
So empathy and curiosity iswhat everything is built on.
Now you asked me about the fourdisciplines of execution.
No, i'm sorry, go ahead.
No, no, no, that's it man.
Yeah So four disciplines ofexecution.
that's the cornerstones of whatguided me through building this
book and my consulting program.
(12:58):
So it's not a chapter in there.
you won't find it in there, soyou'll hear it now.
And by the way, chris, just foryour listeners, i put together
a promo code, only for yourlisteners.
So if they decide they likethis book and they want to go
and order this book at the pointof purchase the promo code
McCoy, your last name they getanother 10% off the book.
Yeah, so it's bringing value toeverybody already, But the four
(13:21):
disciplines.
Chris McCoy (13:22):
MCC, oh why.
Patrick Kagan (13:23):
MCC, oh why?
Yeah, And it's, it's, it's wellworth it at the face value.
But if I have another 10, 10%off for your listeners, it would
be a nice, nice treat.
So let's get into the fourdisciplines of differentiation.
So the first one and I don't Idon't promote hate ever in
anything.
I'm not a fan of that as amotivator.
(13:46):
But when it comes to beingdisciplined, i do use it to make
my point Hate your currentsituation so much, hate your
pain right now, so much on theinside, that you do something
positive about it on the outside.
And I'll give you an example.
I'm a, i'm a military veteran.
I spoke with a lot of veteranswhen I was putting together and
(14:07):
compiling notes for this bookAnd the topic of prisoner of war
came up.
And it's a horrific experiencefor sure.
But I did discover twodifferent mindsets.
There were those that, to getthem through that experience,
they maintained hope, hope forseeing their family, hope for
(14:27):
the war to end, hope forwhatever situation, and they
would put up with any hardshipto get to that hope.
That's a mindset That's good.
That's a survival mindset.
There are others that said Ihate this so much, there is no
risk too great for me to get thehell out of this situation Now.
Both are both our mindsets,both our strategies.
(14:48):
Neither are wrong.
But for differentiation, youneed to hate losing income, you
need to hate losing customers,you need to hate to drift
through your career or you needto hate the fact that you don't
know how to forecast And youhave to go through that with
your boss all the time.
Hate something so much that youdo something about it.
That's the first.
Chris McCoy (15:07):
Patrick, i love that We talk about that at NASP.
We talk about that as movingtowards and moving away from
right.
Yeah, oftentimes moving awayfrom pain, the pain of like I
can't live here in this way.
Another second I can't get upand do this sales job and feel
this pain.
Another I hate this so muchthat I have to do something to
(15:29):
change right.
And that's a great motive.
That's gas on the fire that cansometimes get you going.
It won't sustain you forever.
You better then switch to that.
All right.
Now I want to get to this now.
So bad, because now I've tastedthe new.
I've tasted what success feelslike.
I've tasted what happiness on adaily feels like.
I've tasted what rock in mysales calls a knock, caring at
(15:53):
all if a person says yes or no,because I know I'm delivering
value and now I want that allthe time.
Patrick Kagan (15:59):
Yeah, and you know you're exactly right,
because hate Hating yoursituation right now, that's
motivation.
So motivation is getting upright And loving the outcomes.
That's momentum.
So you're really after momentum.
Momentum keeps you going.
So I hate gets you to stand up.
Momentum keeps you going.
So hate turns to love.
I love this so much and I did areally cool experiment with a
(16:24):
leader in a sales organization asmall group, probably five, six
salespeople and Scratching yourhead my salespeople are lazy,
they're not motivated.
I created this incentive plan.
I'm gonna pay them all thiswhen they do all this.
I said, okay, i think they'remore motivated by Stop behavior
rather than start behavior.
So let me suggest to you Thatyou give them the commissions
(16:47):
right now.
Give it to them.
Well, i haven't done anything.
I said give it to him.
It's theirs to lose.
See what happens.
They blew through theobjectives.
He couldn't get them to get upand move because he wasn't
addressing what they hate.
They hated the idea of givingthe money back.
Yeah but they weren't motivatedby doing more to get that money.
Chris McCoy (17:06):
Another I love, i absolutely love that.
And another.
Another replacement for thathate is that fear.
Patrick Kagan (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, fears , great motivation.
Chris McCoy (17:14):
I'm afraid of losing that.
Patrick Kagan (17:16):
I brought this money home, said to my
Significant others look at whatmy boss gave me today.
Wow, what do you have to do?
I just have to go out and sellblah, blah, blah.
We'll go do it.
You know your, your home lifebecomes.
You're afraid to lose it.
So so hate your currentsituation.
That's the first one secondDiscipline of differentiation is
you need to inspect what youexpect.
(17:36):
Okay and I you can change thewords, i like to play with this
introspect what you extra aspectwhat I want in the external
world is What I need to be doingon my internal world.
So when I say build an idealcustomer profile, i'm also
saying you need to stop andfigure out what's an ideal
salesperson profile.
So the greatest analogy wouldbe you know someone who plays
(18:01):
basketball and They expect theywant to be a better rebounder.
Okay.
So you can't say, if you say,okay, now I'm gonna be a
rebounder, well you're not arebounder.
But when you're jumping more,when you're doing the exercises
to become a rebounder, well thenthe whole world can see.
It is obvious.
And you need to say, wow, iinspect what I expect.
(18:22):
I was rebounding ten rebounds agame.
Now I'm at 20.
It's working.
Chris McCoy (18:27):
I Love that.
I love that You know that.
a couple things come to mind.
you know, um, what's the quoteabout culture?
what you measure, you canimprove, peter Drucker, i think,
is what you said, and then alsoYou mentioned something else
there that really clicked withme and I can't Before you said
what you inspect, you, you sayintrospect what you extra, extra
(18:50):
aspect and what you say rightbefore that.
Patrick Kagan (18:53):
That you want to inspect what you expect.
So if you want to becomesomething, you need to see that.
Chris McCoy (18:58):
Become, that's the word, yeah, but come, we call it
becoming over getting.
Oftentimes you want to get thething and when you want to get
the thing, you're frustratedbecause you don't get the thing
and you focus On having thething.
and when you start to do thethings to become the person that
gets the thing And you'refocusing on the things that you
have to do to become Rewarding,it's more fulfilling, it's more
(19:18):
joyful than it gets you there.
So, yeah, i really love that.
Patrick Kagan (19:22):
It's there, all right because it becomes,
implies the journey and impliesownership, which I'm a big fan
of.
I learned this the hard wayWhen my kids were growing up and
they would break a cell phone,i'd get them another one and I
found that their their cellphones are breaking like crazy.
Then when I said you have tobuy it, wow, did they take care
of it?
Wow, cell phones weren'tbreaking.
So and that was a lesson inleadership and a lesson in and I
(19:43):
distinguish leadership versusmanagement.
But when you lead salespeople,it's okay that they have skin in
the game.
You don't have to give themeverything, and you're not.
And if you do everything forthem, they can't do it when
you're not there.
Let them become The vision ofwhat they believe and marry that
up with what you want, andthat's differentiation as a
leader.
So hate your current situationso much you do something about
(20:06):
it.
Inspect what you expect.
The last two are Simple andconcept and very hard in
practice.
The the third discipline ofdifferentiation is you have to
do this daily.
Differentiation is an unnaturalSkill set.
You have to learn it, but youhave to practice it.
And I put together in in sellthe difference, two visual cues
(20:30):
a sales differentiation curvefrom the sales perspective and
you marry that up with a salesdifferentiation curve from the
client perspective and theydon't match.
And When you do this, what itillustrates clearly is
Differentiation.
And success withdifferentiation is fluid,
meaning it wants to flowdownhill again.
We have bad habits We want tofall back into.
(20:51):
We go back to what's beenmodeled for us.
If we change jobs and we wantto show our boss how good we are
, we go back to things we knew.
But differentiation is the longgame.
It is something you do for thelong game.
So when I say, identify thequalities of your ideal customer
and spend time with them,you're doing business with a lot
(21:12):
of folks who are not ideal.
They'll switch on you and adime, but you need to do
business with them and you needto maintain your performance so
that you have a job, but do itwith a long-term view and a
long-term effort and commit toit every single day.
So you have to doDifferentiation daily.
I still have to remind myselfWhat's going to make me
different in this situation.
(21:33):
What do I say and do?
that sounds exactly likeeverybody else.
I was at a networking eventlast night.
I literally spent an hour aheadof time Previewing and
reviewing What's my elevatorpitch, because I don't want to
go there and ramble and I don'twant to sound like everybody
else, because there's 80 peoplein the room and Most of them are
(21:54):
there for the free food, butyou're gonna find the one or two
that really want to find thatperson that resonates with them.
So daily practice and I stilldo it.
Chris McCoy (22:01):
I love that, and I love that about networking
events too I always go.
When I find my one or two, i'mout once.
Once I got those two contacts,i'm like all right, cool, i'm
gonna grab some food and I'm outof here, because that's yeah,
i'm saturated.
And then just collectingbusiness cards after that, yeah
exactly.
Patrick Kagan (22:15):
I don't want to do speed dating for business
cards, not at all, and I lovewhat you said of commitment and
consistency.
Chris McCoy (22:21):
It's a.
I mean, if you want to make ityour stand, it's hard to do it
sometimes, right, it's hard tochange standard from from
something lower to somethingthat's stretching yourself.
Yeah, you do it.
It becomes who you are and itbecomes easy.
Yeah, what I always thought thechallenge was, patrick, was
when it wasn't my standard.
I would then have to measureand judge every situation and
(22:42):
every person based on if Ithought there was an opportunity
there or it was worthmaintaining my standards.
Right, that is this constantnegotiation struggle.
Am I making the right decisionWhen, when you make it your
standard, it's just easy to makethe right decision, and that
way, i mean, you're really beinga true human.
You're doing it out of properintent, you're doing it not to
get something out of return, butyou're doing it because it is
(23:03):
who you are, and then it'sthat's when it's appreciated.
Patrick Kagan (23:06):
Well, and that's one of the things I try to
practice, what I preach.
So one of the things I do asdifferentiation as an author
those folks that they get mybook I'm accessible to them,
they can.
they can check in with me andask me and have questions like
that Like, are my standards toohigh?
Am I off?
And that's not something Ibuild them.
They're not on the clock forthat.
They're one of my readers,they're one of my followers.
(23:27):
There's abundance I'm buildingaround myself.
that has nothing to do with youdoing a transaction to buy a
book or one of my downloads.
So I make myself accessible andthere are not a lot of authors
that do that.
will take your phone call andsay, yeah, chris, you know your
standard is high or your KPIsare often, do you know what that
does to your employees?
We spend some quality time.
(23:48):
I'm sure there are people whocharge for that.
It's just not about me.
Chris McCoy (23:51):
There are a lot of authors that do not not with
your resume, though,unfortunately.
Patrick Kagan (23:55):
Yeah Well and then finally the last.
The last discipline and ittakes discipline is patience.
And it's patience because notonly are you learning a new
skill, but once you've learnedit, you're never perfecting it.
It's like yoga you'repracticing it.
So you have to be patient withyourself, patient with the
practice.
The practice has to be the joyAnd you, you don't ever do
(24:18):
anything wrong withdifferentiation.
You learn from.
It's like an experiment.
You're like a scientist.
There's not a mistake that youhave to start over.
I learned, i got this far.
I learned.
Now, when you go back, let mejust avoid that circumstance a
little further and let me try todisprove myself And then, when
I can't, i have differentiated.
When you do that, you'll knowyou'll hear customers saying I
(24:38):
never thought about it like thatbefore, chris.
Oh, I never heard it that waybefore.
Oh, chris, i just left thatcompany and went here.
Can you come with me?
Those are signs that you havedifferentiated yourself.
Chris McCoy (24:49):
And you just stealing my language right from
my head, and I love it so much,man, i think practice I've
always reminded of AlanIverson's practice.
You're talking about practice,but I mean practice is it's a
lost art, it is.
It is the most fun play that wecould ever have as humans, and
there's so many different areasin which we can practice which
(25:10):
we don't.
We go out there and we playfreaking Stanley Cup finals, you
know, super Bowl championshipon every single thing that we do
, we put out there to to theworld And we think that if it
doesn't get perceived how wehope it would, we've lost, lost.
Oh, i know This horrible,horrible thing when, when it is
(25:31):
at the playground, the growth isinto practice.
Yeah, fail and learn.
That is the reward, that islife, that is how people get to
the top.
They don't get there by winningat everything and never
learning from growth and neverlearning from failure.
Patrick Kagan (25:45):
No, my greatest teacher of that was when I
coached my daughter inbasketball.
you know, eighth grade girlsare really strong, really
athletic, really good.
And I've coached her and hergroup since they were like five
years old, all the way upthrough high school.
And I remember you know youcould see that as she was the
best for a while.
and then you get to middleschool and she's the best for
(26:07):
school but not the best in theleague.
And then you get to high schooland she's at the bottom part
and there's others, you know,and so that's just a natural
progression of sports.
But I remember saying you know,when you talk to my coach, i
said no, i absolutely will nevertalk to your coach, because all
they're going to hear is I wantyou to play more time.
That's not what I want.
I want you to enjoy the game.
But let me ask you, what areyou doing different to get
(26:28):
better?
And she'd be like, well, i mean, you know, i go to the morning
practices, i go to the eveningpractices.
I'm like, okay, everybody doesthat.
What are you doing different?
And if you want, if you trulywant to get better, if you want
to start more games, if you wantto play more time.
don't ask me to talk to yourcoach And don't you talk to your
coach.
show your coach, demonstrate,and they'll never see you doing
(26:51):
the extras.
But if everybody else ispracticing and then going home
so you've done nothing, how canyou expect to get more time?
And it doesn't happen fromcrying and complaining, it
happens from and she's like whatwould you do?
I'm like, well, what I would dobecause I'm short, i would get
better at skills they need And Iwould maybe spend time.
(27:12):
I used to say to her 10 shotsfrom 10 spots in your driveway,
that's, can you do that?
Yeah, i can do that, but shenever did Now.
I never nagged her about itbecause that's not what she
wanted.
Now she went on to be afantastic biologist doing cancer
research.
That's a great contribution,but she never became a
basketball player.
So it weeds itself out.
There are people in sales whodon't want to be in sales, and
(27:34):
so this book isn't all things toall people, but those that are
in sales.
I've been in it 30 years andthey say time equals love.
I must love sales, whether I'mleading people, whether I'm just
carrying the bag myself, and soif, if I can find a way and I
can show your listeners aneasier way.
jump on board because you,because this book, i tell people
(27:56):
you will get rich.
but it is not a get rich quickbook.
You are not going to learn acatchy technique or tactic or
some manipulation that youhaven't heard.
This is not about that.
Now.
this is about intrinsicallyproving your value to yourself
and to your client, and that'swhat comes to us.
Chris McCoy (28:12):
Yeah, that story was just epic.
I mean, it is everywhere Wespeak.
Value leads, money followsAbsolutely, and it's the
craziest thing with someone thata job, i'm just not getting
paid what I deserve, oh well,really, what do you deserve And
why do you believe you deserveit?
Because if you're bringing thatvalue, oftentimes you're going
(28:33):
to be getting a and listen,definitely employers out there
stealing wages and cuttingpeople down.
And, with all love, it usuallyis happening in the place where
people are looking for apaycheck, not looking for a
career, and looking to investand grow Absolutely.
And so I love everything you'resaying in, patrick.
It's all aligned with what weteach at NASP and our
(28:54):
certifications And it's theprinciples of becoming, it's the
principles of growing, it's theprinciples of staying
internally motivated andexternally focused and reminding
yourself that don't take thingsso seriously.
Life is fun and easy and it'smeant to be.
You're meant to be unique,you're meant to be different
than everyone else around you,and that's where that's a big
(29:16):
part of life is.
Patrick Kagan (29:17):
Yeah, i mean, right now, our political and
social culture is about howwe're all the same, and I
couldn't be more confused bythat, because I think there is
such value in our differencesand our uniqueness.
So I talk about thecomparability factor versus the
differentiation or thedistinguishability factors.
(29:38):
You wanna distinguish yourself,yet you spend time talking
about what makes you comparable.
We value ourselves down throughwhat we say and then what we do
, and you, just you, can't dothat And the whole thing has to
come down to.
I own this and I see it beforeI realize it.
Chris McCoy (29:59):
Patrick, i love it.
man, y'all gotta get this book.
sell the difference, theultimate guide to increasing
sales and customer satisfaction.
I love the customer focus ofthe whole thing.
And y'all be different, be youand trust it, trust it, trust it
, trust it.
This is what life is all about.
And listen, here's the thing,the unique.
you can sell anything.
(30:20):
You can move from one companyto the next.
Your brand is the mostimportant and your brand is the
one that will take thoserelationships with you From one
job to the next, from one careerto the next, even if you're not
in sales forever.
I have relationships fromdifferent careers that have gone
from beginning to end, and itis not just about the value they
can give you.
You start with the value theycan give them, or that you can
(30:42):
give them, and you'll always behappy.
Patrick, listen, all right, getthe book.
Don't forget to use the promocode McCoy.
Patrick Kagan (30:50):
McCoy.
Yeah, the only place you canget the book is at our website,
pksolutionsgroupcom, and whenyou go through the checkout it's
at the point of purchase And asa promo code put in McCoy, you
get another 10% off.
So go to pksolutionsgroupcomAnd I will guarantee this will
be something you will carry withyou, you will annotate, you
(31:10):
will use this and it willabsolutely co-elevate you, your
peers and your customers.
Chris McCoy (31:17):
Mine's on its way.
y'all get yours now.
All right, that's anotheramazing podcast.
Patrick, thank you so much forall the value you gave the
audience here.
We'll definitely have to haveyou, and when we move over to
Music Hill Studios live fromMusic Hill man you have to come
down and join us here.
Get out of that Well, tago inJanuary probably, i know I will,
that's the perfect place to be.
All right, y'all, we know whatto do.
(31:37):
Go ahead down there and leaveall those stars like, comment
and share the video and get thebook And also tune in next week
to the next episode of Leads toGrow.
We're the National Associationof Sales Professionals, take
care y'all.
Thanks Patrick, thanks Chris.
Hate your current situation so much, hate your
pain right now so much on theinside that you do something
positive about it on the outside.
Voice Over (00:10):
Everything leads to growth with the National
Association for SalesProfessionals.
The Leads to Growth podcastwith the National Association
for Sales Professionals providesin-depth discussions, sharing
the best sales prospecting,influence and communication
skills, as well as salestraining techniques to take your
professional sales career tothe next level.
Chris McCoy (00:32):
Hello and welcome to another episode of You Guess
That Leads to Growth, y'all.
My name is Chris McCoy, yourhost with the National
Association of SalesProfessionals, and today you
know we've got an OG in the game.
We've got Patrick Kagan.
How you doing, patrick, i'mgood Chris.
How you doing, i'm doing verywell.
You know, when I say an OG, youknow we talk to a lot of people
(00:53):
that are in the marketing space, in this space, that space.
But Patrick is a bit in themarketing space now.
But this guy has led seniorsales and national sales for
companies such as Procter andGamble, hewlett Packard and many
others.
You know he now owns MarketingAgency PK Solutions Group and is
also internationally renownedpodcast host and business coach
(01:14):
and author of the new book,which is really why I wanted to
have him on the podcast today.
Sell the difference thealternate guide to increasing
sales, profits and customersatisfaction through the art of
differentiation, differentiation, different There's an extra, a
differentiation.
Patrick Kagan (01:30):
Differentiation.
Chris McCoy (01:31):
Differentiation.
There we go.
I'm a little slow this morning.
y'all It's OK.
Differentiation And this is.
You know that we talk aboutthis all the time on the show.
We become robots often time andsales, especially the SDR work.
You follow the scripts, youfollow, you know all these
things, your mass and out peoplemessages.
We lost the humanness of salesa lot in what we do, and that's
(01:56):
where our uniqueness is, that'swhere our unique selling
proposition is, that's where ouronly statement is, that's where
our differentiation is And thisis where people want to connect
with us.
And I love that you broughtthis to the table, Patrick.
What brought you to this?
writing this book here today,man?
Patrick Kagan (02:15):
Yeah, cool.
And when I hear oh gee, i justthink original guru.
So I'm really I'm really I'mthrilled.
So I mean, you know, it's alife's journey when anybody
writes a book.
For sure, whatever stage oflife they're at, whatever
they've had before, that hasprepared them for that.
And my world, like you hadmentioned, was a lot of Fortune
(02:36):
500 companies, always anentrepreneur deep down in my
heart.
And so when I left and decidedto have my own thing 15 years
ago, it wasn't that I was adisgruntled employee and you
know screw the man type of thing, as much as I just knew that I
liked doing my own thing andgrowing my own business and
(02:58):
responsiveness to clients, and Idid find that I could
differentiate much quickerworking on my own as opposed to
working through an organization.
There's many layers and thattype of thing.
So that's, you know, kind ofwhat led me to write in my book.
When I first started trying towrite a book it was about 1998,
1999.
(03:19):
And I was a road warrior.
I was traveling coast to coastas on and off a plane all the
time.
My motivation and road warriors, everything in the past now
That's a thing of the past, yeah, but my motivation was to get
off the road.
I wanted to stop living inhotels and that type of thing
And I would hit writer's blocktime and time again because my
motivation was really more of aself-serving type thing and
(03:44):
avoid the travel as opposed towhat is this about and who is it
for and what will it do forthem.
So flash forward to about a yearand a half or two years ago and
on my own podcast, one of myguests happens to be one of the
top published authors in theworld.
I didn't know this and I'm justhaving a great conversation
(04:04):
with this guy And we finish andwe talk offline and he says when
are you publishing your book?
I'm like I don't have a book.
He's like you have three booksfor sure.
You just need clarity in whichbook you're going to publish
first.
And he's like you have a way ofdifferentiating your points.
And that hit me.
(04:25):
I'm like that's kind of whathas helped me to succeed in
sales.
And so he mentored me andhelped me through getting
clarity of vision.
What is differentiation?
Why is it important?
And it was really telling to meAnd you mentioned something
about how we can kind of losesomething compared to the old
days, where we're back in thedays where it was face to face
(04:48):
time with clients.
And when the pandemic hits theworld, it suddenly runs zoom
calls and we get farther removed, and the farther removed the
more similar we become.
In sales.
Similarity is a death wish andyou need to differentiate.
So the importance now isgreater than ever before, and
it's the number one mostimportant skill and yet the
(05:09):
number one most neglected skill.
You don't find professionaldevelopment seminars devoted to
differentiation.
This book is a playbook on howto do that.
Chris McCoy (05:18):
I really love that And it speaks a lot to there's
definitely differences, but itspeaks a lot to the training
that we offer at NASP And Ithink what happens is, even if
you do, let's say, you take thetime to find out what makes you
different and what makes youspecial, right, you still have
(05:39):
to maintain that internalmotivation, to trust that within
you and to go out there.
Because the challenge withsalespeople is they may roll
into sales feeling different andfeeling unique And really that
joy of a salesperson when theyfirst start a position,
especially back in the day whenit wasn't just sitting behind a
desk picking up a phone.
We actually work it to go outthere and talk to people.
You'd see this, what do we callit?
(06:03):
blind ignorance?
They would do amazing becausethey would say that way.
Once they got beaten down, oncethe outside started changing
how they feel on the inside,once they became externally
motivated as opposed to theinternal motivation, that's when
they started to get.
They started to look likeeveryone else and respond like
yeah.
Patrick Kagan (06:21):
And this book is all about finding the intrinsic
value for you as a salespersonAnd, more importantly, for the
customer.
See, the real important thingabout this book is it's your
sales secret weapon, because youlearn to sell the way a
customer is longing to buy.
They are tired of salespeopleall sounding the same And at
(06:41):
some point they carry aroundthis invisible mute button and
they put you on mute and youhave to ask yourself how often
am I presenting on mute?
Sometimes I win a sale.
I don't even know how ithappened.
Sometimes I don't get a sale.
I don't know how that happened.
And so the whole thing isreally looking at how does a
person choose to buy, how dothey want to buy, and do we
(07:04):
spend time with the rightclients or do we just spend time
with all others?
And that's the two categories Iput them in.
Chris McCoy (07:12):
So let's get down to some action steps.
All right, so I'm a salespersonout there.
and what are the foundations ofdifferentiation?
Yeah, so I'm a salesperson outthere.
or also, your book talks aboutthe four disciplines.
Yeah, where can we start toreally understand what this is
and how we can break it downwithin what we are?
Patrick Kagan (07:30):
Yeah, there's two things.
So the first is reallyunderstanding where
differentiation comes from, anda lot of times we hear people
use words that have becomebuzzwords.
I hear people all the timesaying I'm authentically curious
or I'm curious Well, it'sbecome a buzzword and it's lost
its value.
So differentiation is anoutcome of two things a stimulus
(07:52):
and a response.
The stimulus is true empathy.
You're able to truly experience, or have experience or see
things from the other person'sside.
Empathy meaning I see, feel andknow what another group or
person or corporation is goingthrough.
I felt your pain.
Other customers of mine havefelt your pain.
(08:13):
Let me not jump on this with aone size fits all solution.
Let me dig into what's causingyour pain but, more importantly,
what's the cost of that pain toyou?
Is it time, is it energy?
Is it manpower?
So the stimulus is empathy.
The response, then, iscuriosity.
You ask questions that have todo with what if?
(08:37):
and your customer, if you havean ideal customer.
They respond to what if It'slike?
what if we do nothing?
What will happen to you?
What if we implement my changes?
What will happen to you?
What if we implement part ofthis?
What if we try to do this forless money.
What if, what if, what if isthe curiosity driver, and that's
(08:57):
what drives differentiation.
That's the first part.
Chris McCoy (09:01):
And just a comment on that.
He said something.
He said true empathy.
Don't fake the empathy, y'all.
That's even worse than notpretending to be empathetic.
There's nothing worse thansomebody going oh really, oh man
, well, tell me what wouldhappen if you don't buy for me
today?
How bad would that hurt you?
When you can tell it's just amanipulation, when it's
(09:25):
inauthentic?
you have to be authentic andyou have to truly care about
that person.
So ask it in the proper way.
So don't ask it.
Hey, what happens if you don'tbuy today?
Ask it why is this an urgentdecision for you all right now?
I mean really, what is thiscosting you on a daily So we can
really and be real, talk tothem like they're a real person.
Why am I seeing this?
so that we can both understandlogically the pain.
(09:46):
Because if there isn't costingyou anything, then you're not
going to have an urgency to buyAnd I'm not going to have an
urgency to sell you becausethere's not a really big
difference in doing the business.
So now we can both walk awaytogether evenly and happily.
But if there is a pain thereand if it is costing us, then
our awareness will be an insightfor us to make a good, smart,
educated decision.
Patrick Kagan (10:07):
Absolutely.
And you made some great points,because sincerity is really
what you do, not what you say,and so everything speaks.
So I could lie to your facewith a smile on my face, and you
could say, hey, he's atrustworthy guy and blah, blah,
blah.
But I lied to you.
But my actions will never lie.
Actions are truth.
That's why, when you're on mute, what you do speaks louder than
(10:31):
what you say.
And remember, customers areconditioned that all you
salespeople sound the same Andyou don't know your value.
So I will tell you your valueAnd ultimately, i have to do my
job.
I'm going to buy from somebody.
I want to eliminate that, andso what I do to differentiate is
I demonstrate differentiation.
The minute someone tells youyou know, i'm a kind person, i'm
(10:54):
curious.
Well, it makes you question ifyou are, why do you have to say
it?
Chris McCoy (10:58):
I literally just had this conversation with a
coworker the other day And Ilove him And the fact that we
got into it, was you know, andreally just decided to
understand each other was reallyeven more fun about it.
But the fact is he said, oh,i'm curious.
I said no, no, no.
Now I know that you're justtrying to manipulate me, because
if you're curious, you wouldhave asked a question a minute
ago, before this became a,before I became a little upset
(11:21):
and moved away from this thingNow, because you've realized
you've lost me.
Now you're coming back andtelling me you're curious, when
I obviously know that you're not, and so that was a good point
And you just illustrated.
Patrick Kagan (11:31):
you just illustrated a great point.
So in that scenario, if you'rethe client and that person is
the salesperson curiosity,empathy, differentiation, they
exist in your mind.
first you recognize it, thatnobody has to say it, and when
they say it they take away fromthemselves And you know right
now everybody's saying they'recurious and authentic and
(11:53):
playful and everything else.
And salespeople they learnthrough model behavior.
they may have learned the wrongmodel behavior and they go
repeat that.
So you have to take a step backand you have to say what is my
ideal customer?
look like, sound like, how dothey do business?
And then what is an ideal salesperson look like and sound like
and how do they do business?
(12:13):
And you have to marry the two upAnd I spend a lot of time
reminding people that they spendtime with the wrong people,
because those people spend moneywith their company.
And I'm not saying let go ofall your corporate objectives or
don't make your goals or don'tgo out and sell.
But if a salesperson is sellingand spending time with a wrong
(12:36):
client, that client will leaveyou.
But if you spend time with theright client, they'll never
leave you.
So empathy and curiosity iswhat everything is built on.
Now you asked me about the fourdisciplines of execution.
No, i'm sorry, go ahead.
No, no, no, that's it man.
Yeah So four disciplines ofexecution.
that's the cornerstones of whatguided me through building this
book and my consulting program.
(12:58):
So it's not a chapter in there.
you won't find it in there, soyou'll hear it now.
And by the way, chris, just foryour listeners, i put together
a promo code, only for yourlisteners.
So if they decide they likethis book and they want to go
and order this book at the pointof purchase the promo code
McCoy, your last name they getanother 10% off the book.
Yeah, so it's bringing value toeverybody already, But the four
(13:21):
disciplines.
Chris McCoy (13:22):
MCC, oh why.
Patrick Kagan (13:23):
MCC, oh why?
Yeah, And it's, it's, it's wellworth it at the face value.
But if I have another 10, 10%off for your listeners, it would
be a nice, nice treat.
So let's get into the fourdisciplines of differentiation.
So the first one and I don't Idon't promote hate ever in
anything.
I'm not a fan of that as amotivator.
(13:46):
But when it comes to beingdisciplined, i do use it to make
my point Hate your currentsituation so much, hate your
pain right now, so much on theinside, that you do something
positive about it on the outside.
And I'll give you an example.
I'm a, i'm a military veteran.
I spoke with a lot of veteranswhen I was putting together and
(14:07):
compiling notes for this bookAnd the topic of prisoner of war
came up.
And it's a horrific experiencefor sure.
But I did discover twodifferent mindsets.
There were those that, to getthem through that experience,
they maintained hope, hope forseeing their family, hope for
(14:27):
the war to end, hope forwhatever situation, and they
would put up with any hardshipto get to that hope.
That's a mindset That's good.
That's a survival mindset.
There are others that said Ihate this so much, there is no
risk too great for me to get thehell out of this situation Now.
Both are both our mindsets,both our strategies.
(14:48):
Neither are wrong.
But for differentiation, youneed to hate losing income, you
need to hate losing customers,you need to hate to drift
through your career or you needto hate the fact that you don't
know how to forecast And youhave to go through that with
your boss all the time.
Hate something so much that youdo something about it.
That's the first.
Chris McCoy (15:07):
Patrick, i love that We talk about that at NASP.
We talk about that as movingtowards and moving away from
right.
Yeah, oftentimes moving awayfrom pain, the pain of like I
can't live here in this way.
Another second I can't get upand do this sales job and feel
this pain.
Another I hate this so muchthat I have to do something to
(15:29):
change right.
And that's a great motive.
That's gas on the fire that cansometimes get you going.
It won't sustain you forever.
You better then switch to that.
All right.
Now I want to get to this now.
So bad, because now I've tastedthe new.
I've tasted what success feelslike.
I've tasted what happiness on adaily feels like.
I've tasted what rock in mysales calls a knock, caring at
(15:53):
all if a person says yes or no,because I know I'm delivering
value and now I want that allthe time.
Patrick Kagan (15:59):
Yeah, and you know you're exactly right,
because hate Hating yoursituation right now, that's
motivation.
So motivation is getting upright And loving the outcomes.
That's momentum.
So you're really after momentum.
Momentum keeps you going.
So I hate gets you to stand up.
Momentum keeps you going.
So hate turns to love.
I love this so much and I did areally cool experiment with a
(16:24):
leader in a sales organization asmall group, probably five, six
salespeople and Scratching yourhead my salespeople are lazy,
they're not motivated.
I created this incentive plan.
I'm gonna pay them all thiswhen they do all this.
I said, okay, i think they'remore motivated by Stop behavior
rather than start behavior.
So let me suggest to you Thatyou give them the commissions
(16:47):
right now.
Give it to them.
Well, i haven't done anything.
I said give it to him.
It's theirs to lose.
See what happens.
They blew through theobjectives.
He couldn't get them to get upand move because he wasn't
addressing what they hate.
They hated the idea of givingthe money back.
Yeah but they weren't motivatedby doing more to get that money.
Chris McCoy (17:06):
Another I love, i absolutely love that.
And another.
Another replacement for thathate is that fear.
Patrick Kagan (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, fears , great motivation.
Chris McCoy (17:14):
I'm afraid of losing that.
Patrick Kagan (17:16):
I brought this money home, said to my
Significant others look at whatmy boss gave me today.
Wow, what do you have to do?
I just have to go out and sellblah, blah, blah.
We'll go do it.
You know your, your home lifebecomes.
You're afraid to lose it.
So so hate your currentsituation.
That's the first one secondDiscipline of differentiation is
you need to inspect what youexpect.
(17:36):
Okay and I you can change thewords, i like to play with this
introspect what you extra aspectwhat I want in the external
world is What I need to be doingon my internal world.
So when I say build an idealcustomer profile, i'm also
saying you need to stop andfigure out what's an ideal
salesperson profile.
So the greatest analogy wouldbe you know someone who plays
(18:01):
basketball and They expect theywant to be a better rebounder.
Okay.
So you can't say, if you say,okay, now I'm gonna be a
rebounder, well you're not arebounder.
But when you're jumping more,when you're doing the exercises
to become a rebounder, well thenthe whole world can see.
It is obvious.
And you need to say, wow, iinspect what I expect.
(18:22):
I was rebounding ten rebounds agame.
Now I'm at 20.
It's working.
Chris McCoy (18:27):
I Love that.
I love that You know that.
a couple things come to mind.
you know, um, what's the quoteabout culture?
what you measure, you canimprove, peter Drucker, i think,
is what you said, and then alsoYou mentioned something else
there that really clicked withme and I can't Before you said
what you inspect, you, you sayintrospect what you extra, extra
(18:50):
aspect and what you say rightbefore that.
Patrick Kagan (18:53):
That you want to inspect what you expect.
So if you want to becomesomething, you need to see that.
Chris McCoy (18:58):
Become, that's the word, yeah, but come, we call it
becoming over getting.
Oftentimes you want to get thething and when you want to get
the thing, you're frustratedbecause you don't get the thing
and you focus On having thething.
and when you start to do thethings to become the person that
gets the thing And you'refocusing on the things that you
have to do to become Rewarding,it's more fulfilling, it's more
(19:18):
joyful than it gets you there.
So, yeah, i really love that.
Patrick Kagan (19:22):
It's there, all right because it becomes,
implies the journey and impliesownership, which I'm a big fan
of.
I learned this the hard wayWhen my kids were growing up and
they would break a cell phone,i'd get them another one and I
found that their their cellphones are breaking like crazy.
Then when I said you have tobuy it, wow, did they take care
of it?
Wow, cell phones weren'tbreaking.
So and that was a lesson inleadership and a lesson in and I
(19:43):
distinguish leadership versusmanagement.
But when you lead salespeople,it's okay that they have skin in
the game.
You don't have to give themeverything, and you're not.
And if you do everything forthem, they can't do it when
you're not there.
Let them become The vision ofwhat they believe and marry that
up with what you want, andthat's differentiation as a
leader.
So hate your current situationso much you do something about
(20:06):
it.
Inspect what you expect.
The last two are Simple andconcept and very hard in
practice.
The the third discipline ofdifferentiation is you have to
do this daily.
Differentiation is an unnaturalSkill set.
You have to learn it, but youhave to practice it.
And I put together in in sellthe difference, two visual cues
(20:30):
a sales differentiation curvefrom the sales perspective and
you marry that up with a salesdifferentiation curve from the
client perspective and theydon't match.
And When you do this, what itillustrates clearly is
Differentiation.
And success withdifferentiation is fluid,
meaning it wants to flowdownhill again.
We have bad habits We want tofall back into.
(20:51):
We go back to what's beenmodeled for us.
If we change jobs and we wantto show our boss how good we are
, we go back to things we knew.
But differentiation is the longgame.
It is something you do for thelong game.
So when I say, identify thequalities of your ideal customer
and spend time with them,you're doing business with a lot
(21:12):
of folks who are not ideal.
They'll switch on you and adime, but you need to do
business with them and you needto maintain your performance so
that you have a job, but do itwith a long-term view and a
long-term effort and commit toit every single day.
So you have to doDifferentiation daily.
I still have to remind myselfWhat's going to make me
different in this situation.
(21:33):
What do I say and do?
that sounds exactly likeeverybody else.
I was at a networking eventlast night.
I literally spent an hour aheadof time Previewing and
reviewing What's my elevatorpitch, because I don't want to
go there and ramble and I don'twant to sound like everybody
else, because there's 80 peoplein the room and Most of them are
(21:54):
there for the free food, butyou're gonna find the one or two
that really want to find thatperson that resonates with them.
So daily practice and I stilldo it.
Chris McCoy (22:01):
I love that, and I love that about networking
events too I always go.
When I find my one or two, i'mout once.
Once I got those two contacts,i'm like all right, cool, i'm
gonna grab some food and I'm outof here, because that's yeah,
i'm saturated.
And then just collectingbusiness cards after that, yeah
exactly.
Patrick Kagan (22:15):
I don't want to do speed dating for business
cards, not at all, and I lovewhat you said of commitment and
consistency.
Chris McCoy (22:21):
It's a.
I mean, if you want to make ityour stand, it's hard to do it
sometimes, right, it's hard tochange standard from from
something lower to somethingthat's stretching yourself.
Yeah, you do it.
It becomes who you are and itbecomes easy.
Yeah, what I always thought thechallenge was, patrick, was
when it wasn't my standard.
I would then have to measureand judge every situation and
(22:42):
every person based on if Ithought there was an opportunity
there or it was worthmaintaining my standards.
Right, that is this constantnegotiation struggle.
Am I making the right decisionWhen, when you make it your
standard, it's just easy to makethe right decision, and that
way, i mean, you're really beinga true human.
You're doing it out of properintent, you're doing it not to
get something out of return, butyou're doing it because it is
(23:03):
who you are, and then it'sthat's when it's appreciated.
Patrick Kagan (23:06):
Well, and that's one of the things I try to
practice, what I preach.
So one of the things I do asdifferentiation as an author
those folks that they get mybook I'm accessible to them,
they can.
they can check in with me andask me and have questions like
that Like, are my standards toohigh?
Am I off?
And that's not something Ibuild them.
They're not on the clock forthat.
They're one of my readers,they're one of my followers.
(23:27):
There's abundance I'm buildingaround myself.
that has nothing to do with youdoing a transaction to buy a
book or one of my downloads.
So I make myself accessible andthere are not a lot of authors
that do that.
will take your phone call andsay, yeah, chris, you know your
standard is high or your KPIsare often, do you know what that
does to your employees?
We spend some quality time.
(23:48):
I'm sure there are people whocharge for that.
It's just not about me.
Chris McCoy (23:51):
There are a lot of authors that do not not with
your resume, though,unfortunately.
Patrick Kagan (23:55):
Yeah Well and then finally the last.
The last discipline and ittakes discipline is patience.
And it's patience because notonly are you learning a new
skill, but once you've learnedit, you're never perfecting it.
It's like yoga you'repracticing it.
So you have to be patient withyourself, patient with the
practice.
The practice has to be the joyAnd you, you don't ever do
(24:18):
anything wrong withdifferentiation.
You learn from.
It's like an experiment.
You're like a scientist.
There's not a mistake that youhave to start over.
I learned, i got this far.
I learned.
Now, when you go back, let mejust avoid that circumstance a
little further and let me try todisprove myself And then, when
I can't, i have differentiated.
When you do that, you'll knowyou'll hear customers saying I
(24:38):
never thought about it like thatbefore, chris.
Oh, I never heard it that waybefore.
Oh, chris, i just left thatcompany and went here.
Can you come with me?
Those are signs that you havedifferentiated yourself.
Chris McCoy (24:49):
And you just stealing my language right from
my head, and I love it so much,man, i think practice I've
always reminded of AlanIverson's practice.
You're talking about practice,but I mean practice is it's a
lost art, it is.
It is the most fun play that wecould ever have as humans, and
there's so many different areasin which we can practice which
(25:10):
we don't.
We go out there and we playfreaking Stanley Cup finals, you
know, super Bowl championshipon every single thing that we do
, we put out there to to theworld And we think that if it
doesn't get perceived how wehope it would, we've lost, lost.
Oh, i know This horrible,horrible thing when, when it is
(25:31):
at the playground, the growth isinto practice.
Yeah, fail and learn.
That is the reward, that islife, that is how people get to
the top.
They don't get there by winningat everything and never
learning from growth and neverlearning from failure.
Patrick Kagan (25:45):
No, my greatest teacher of that was when I
coached my daughter inbasketball.
you know, eighth grade girlsare really strong, really
athletic, really good.
And I've coached her and hergroup since they were like five
years old, all the way upthrough high school.
And I remember you know youcould see that as she was the
best for a while.
and then you get to middleschool and she's the best for
(26:07):
school but not the best in theleague.
And then you get to high schooland she's at the bottom part
and there's others, you know,and so that's just a natural
progression of sports.
But I remember saying you know,when you talk to my coach, i
said no, i absolutely will nevertalk to your coach, because all
they're going to hear is I wantyou to play more time.
That's not what I want.
I want you to enjoy the game.
But let me ask you, what areyou doing different to get
(26:28):
better?
And she'd be like, well, i mean, you know, i go to the morning
practices, i go to the eveningpractices.
I'm like, okay, everybody doesthat.
What are you doing different?
And if you want, if you trulywant to get better, if you want
to start more games, if you wantto play more time.
don't ask me to talk to yourcoach And don't you talk to your
coach.
show your coach, demonstrate,and they'll never see you doing
(26:51):
the extras.
But if everybody else ispracticing and then going home
so you've done nothing, how canyou expect to get more time?
And it doesn't happen fromcrying and complaining, it
happens from and she's like whatwould you do?
I'm like, well, what I would dobecause I'm short, i would get
better at skills they need And Iwould maybe spend time.
(27:12):
I used to say to her 10 shotsfrom 10 spots in your driveway,
that's, can you do that?
Yeah, i can do that, but shenever did Now.
I never nagged her about itbecause that's not what she
wanted.
Now she went on to be afantastic biologist doing cancer
research.
That's a great contribution,but she never became a
basketball player.
So it weeds itself out.
There are people in sales whodon't want to be in sales, and
(27:34):
so this book isn't all things toall people, but those that are
in sales.
I've been in it 30 years andthey say time equals love.
I must love sales, whether I'mleading people, whether I'm just
carrying the bag myself, and soif, if I can find a way and I
can show your listeners aneasier way.
jump on board because you,because this book, i tell people
(27:56):
you will get rich.
but it is not a get rich quickbook.
You are not going to learn acatchy technique or tactic or
some manipulation that youhaven't heard.
This is not about that.
Now.
this is about intrinsicallyproving your value to yourself
and to your client, and that'swhat comes to us.
Chris McCoy (28:12):
Yeah, that story was just epic.
I mean, it is everywhere Wespeak.
Value leads, money followsAbsolutely, and it's the
craziest thing with someone thata job, i'm just not getting
paid what I deserve, oh well,really, what do you deserve And
why do you believe you deserveit?
Because if you're bringing thatvalue, oftentimes you're going
(28:33):
to be getting a and listen,definitely employers out there
stealing wages and cuttingpeople down.
And, with all love, it usuallyis happening in the place where
people are looking for apaycheck, not looking for a
career, and looking to investand grow Absolutely.
And so I love everything you'resaying in, patrick.
It's all aligned with what weteach at NASP and our
(28:54):
certifications And it's theprinciples of becoming, it's the
principles of growing, it's theprinciples of staying
internally motivated andexternally focused and reminding
yourself that don't take thingsso seriously.
Life is fun and easy and it'smeant to be.
You're meant to be unique,you're meant to be different
than everyone else around you,and that's where that's a big
(29:16):
part of life is.
Patrick Kagan (29:17):
Yeah, i mean, right now, our political and
social culture is about howwe're all the same, and I
couldn't be more confused bythat, because I think there is
such value in our differencesand our uniqueness.
So I talk about thecomparability factor versus the
differentiation or thedistinguishability factors.
(29:38):
You wanna distinguish yourself,yet you spend time talking
about what makes you comparable.
We value ourselves down throughwhat we say and then what we do
, and you, just you, can't dothat And the whole thing has to
come down to.
I own this and I see it beforeI realize it.
Chris McCoy (29:59):
Patrick, i love it.
man, y'all gotta get this book.
sell the difference, theultimate guide to increasing
sales and customer satisfaction.
I love the customer focus ofthe whole thing.
And y'all be different, be youand trust it, trust it, trust it
, trust it.
This is what life is all about.
And listen, here's the thing,the unique.
you can sell anything.
(30:20):
You can move from one companyto the next.
Your brand is the mostimportant and your brand is the
one that will take thoserelationships with you From one
job to the next, from one careerto the next, even if you're not
in sales forever.
I have relationships fromdifferent careers that have gone
from beginning to end, and itis not just about the value they
can give you.
You start with the value theycan give them, or that you can
(30:42):
give them, and you'll always behappy.
Patrick, listen, all right, getthe book.
Don't forget to use the promocode McCoy.
Patrick Kagan (30:50):
McCoy.
Yeah, the only place you canget the book is at our website,
pksolutionsgroupcom, and whenyou go through the checkout it's
at the point of purchase And asa promo code put in McCoy, you
get another 10% off.
So go to pksolutionsgroupcomAnd I will guarantee this will
be something you will carry withyou, you will annotate, you
(31:10):
will use this and it willabsolutely co-elevate you, your
peers and your customers.
Chris McCoy (31:17):
Mine's on its way.
y'all get yours now.
All right, that's anotheramazing podcast.
Patrick, thank you so much forall the value you gave the
audience here.
We'll definitely have to haveyou, and when we move over to
Music Hill Studios live fromMusic Hill man you have to come
down and join us here.
Get out of that Well, tago inJanuary probably, i know I will,
that's the perfect place to be.
All right, y'all, we know whatto do.
(31:37):
Go ahead down there and leaveall those stars like, comment
and share the video and get thebook And also tune in next week
to the next episode of Leads toGrow.
We're the National Associationof Sales Professionals, take
care y'all.
Thanks Patrick, thanks Chris.
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